Doc's (Day old chicks )

[Pitbull]

If you have read any of my posts you wi be aware that I personally hate feeding my MHH DOCs, I rather feed a higher quality of food.
I trained my HH on rabbit rather than DOCs and now that he is hunting use, quail, venison, and anything that he catches that is suitable. I would rather crop him up after a kill on either the quarry caught than 3, or 4 DOCs, and wait a bit longer for him to come back too weight without starving him.

I personally feel that there is no place for them in a BOPs diet

Is there anyone else that feels the same.






Ok I'm ready for whatever is thrown at me. Go for it:lol:

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

Studies were carried out on this at the NBoPC. Youd be suprised how high chick came on the positive list. Even Jemima stood down on her anti chick stance (And that takes some doing).

[MattSpar]

I feed loads of the things, and have never had a problem.

[James_Falconry1]

I like DOC's, they do have alot of calcium i think it is in the yolk but usually squeeze when training and skin when hunting and give either quail or a kill twice or three times a week depending on the weather and temp that night.

They wrk well also because they are cheap to use. Easy to get hold of i dont have that much tie out of season to go poppin stuff for food as much as i would like so they suite my needs.

Jimmy

[Barbary Boy]

what would you suggest as a suitable alternative to docs when feeding large numbers of birds m8?

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

I like DOC's, they do have alot of calcium i think it is in the yolk but usually squeeze when training and skin when hunting and give either quail or a kill twice or three times a week depending on the weather and temp that night.

They wrk well also because they are cheap to use. Easy to get hold of i dont have that much tie out of season to go poppin stuff for food as much as i would like so they suite my needs.

Jimmy
Well said that man! Its also detrimental to keep some species on too good a diet.

[Big Dazz]

http://www.rodentpro.com/qpage_articles_03.asp

you might be supprised take a look

[Gos212]

Pitbull,

I have read you're other posts with regards to your preferrences for feeding your bird which is fine, your choice, but what is it you dislike about DOC's ?

Sprout replied to your earlier posts and basically said that they are not as bad as you think or have been led to believe.

DOC's form the main part of my birds diet, I do supplement them with Rabbit, Hare, Pigeon Quail etc but only one or twice a week.

[Pitbull]

http://www.rodentpro.com/qpage_articles_03.asp

you might be supprised take a look

excellent link. I just dont like given a massed produced product that has 4 wings or a leg sticking out its arse.
But BB i can understand what you are saying, and can agree with you but as a 1 or 2 bird owner I would rather not.
By the way I am in no way trying to tell anyone what they should or shouldnt do just after if anybody has similar veiws

[Barbary Boy]

http://www.rodentpro.com/qpage_articles_03.asp

you might be supprised take a look
very informative thanks.

[Barbary Boy]

not that many years ago some of this countries top breeders fed nothing but docs and had tremendus results, i agree if i had the resourses i would feed a lot more "natural" food, but needs must.

[Big Dazz]

i feed my sakerett on doc but i do give other stuff too if i get rabbit he gets some of that ect its good to give a varied diet where possable

[Jackson]

what could be suggested as a suitable alternative? especially for centres or people who have quite a few birds?? docs form the basis of our birds diet and then we give them the occassional rabbit rats and quail (the eagles and some of our other birds get more of these than others it depends what we're flying). but in a centre, especially if you do displays during the course of the day, what could be used as cost-effective, plentyfull food to use that is also quick to prepare??
i prefer docs as a basis and would give my bop, if and when i get one, rabbit, hare etc in addition.
i think its been said already, but what happens if you hunt in the winter and lay them up in the summer or vice versa? howd you get the food when your not hunting - for those who use mainly what the catch to feed their bops?
thats my perrsonal view but im sure people differ in preference!

[Cobra]

If you have read any of my posts you wi be aware that I personally hate feeding my MHH DOCs, I rather feed a higher quality of food.
I trained my HH on rabbit rather than DOCs and now that he is hunting use, quail, venison, and anything that he catches that is suitable. I would rather crop him up after a kill on either the quarry caught than 3, or 4 DOCs, and wait a bit longer for him to come back too weight without starving him.

I personally feel that there is no place for them in a BOPs diet
Ok I'm ready for whatever is thrown at me. Go for it:lol:



I must admit that I used to think like you, a few years ago, Pit bull, until I looked into it a little deeper (see below) They are suprisingly high in calcium.
Chris


4 adult RTB'S mean weight males 1.0kg females 1.2kg
were fed doc's in controlled conditions for one month alternativly with hamsters.
daily comsumption of 2.6-2.8 doc's mean weight 45g.
2.9-3.3 3wk old hamsters mean weight 38g.
this was sufficient to maintain bio-function in a thermo neutral environment.
and without supplementation.
the RTB's had gained (mean) 56g at the termination of the study.


DOC's
weight..............................44.6g
dry matter %....................24.2 (dessicated)
gross energy kcal/g...........5.54
crude protein %................67.4
ether extact %...................21.0
ash %..................................5.4
calcium %............................2.08
the rest made up with trace elements

HAMSTERS
weight...............................37.9g
dry matter %......................30.3
gross energy kcal/g...............5.98
crude protein %...................49.8
ether extract % ...................34.7
ash % ..................................7.5
calcium % ............................2.51

Ref: Tabaka et al 1996

[Maxwell]

http://www.rodentpro.com/qpage_articles_03.asp

you might be supprised take a look

Thanks m8 - link added to 'favourites'

I tend to agree that variety is best - but during breeding and flying - yolk is a big 'no-no'

[Pitbull]

If I was to feed DOCs who would you say supplies the better quality.

[Pitbull]

Cobra is RTB Red tailed buzzard....or Red tailed Boas

[Cobra]

Cobra is RTB Red tailed buzzard....or Red tailed Boas

LOL Red tail buzzard, I tend to feed the snake on rats:lol:
Chris
Ps I use honey brooks

[Sean]

anyone ever read' raptor nutrition' by neil forbes. he says it in doc is a very good main diet for any bop, but obvuiously variation is the key( i iknow i cant spell lol)

[James_Falconry1]

Ive got that sean as well as first aid in the same series, briliant little book that is.

Jimmy

[ColdZero]

i don't feed DOC either. Theres just something about feeding a barely hatched soft boned sack of yolk that just doesn't appeal to me. Even if all the results say its got everything a bird needs it still just doesn't feel right. The ONLY reason people feed so much DOC is because its cheap..simple as that. If i had many birds to feed i would use DOC, but as i don't there is no argument for it, its just lazyness imo.

[Barbary Boy]

day old turkeys are very good?

[James_Falconry1]

i don't feed DOC either. Theres just something about feeding a barely hatched soft boned sack of yolk that just doesn't appeal to me. Even if all the results say its got everything a bird needs it still just doesn't feel right. The ONLY reason people feed so much DOC is because its cheap..simple as that. If i had many birds to feed i would use DOC, but as i don't there is no argument for it, its just lazyness imo.


Cold zero read Neil Forbes Nutrision booklet then ul kno there not that bad.

U wonder why ur birds condition have been bad let alone there weight maintenace if you dont use something that is a staple base food source.
How is it lazy i work 4.5 days a week and college the rest during winter dont get tym to shoot ferret let alone have a **** in the mornin. That aint lazy.

You will find yolk has as i said earlier alot of calcium i think it is in it. Which isnt as bad as u think. Aslong as loads of yolk isnt given then it gets messy nd very fat.
Its cheap well a rabit or Phessy is free if you get tym to get it so y isnt every1 doing that istead.


Jimmy

[ColdZero]

like is said, the fine detail of the calcium levels isn't what puts me off. I feel only learning the nutritional value of one food so you don't need to know more, therefore not providing a varied diet to be lazy. This is just my opinion, seems my opinion always brings an argument of some sort though... it was just a matter of trial and error with different foods until i could get it right. I feed quail, rabbit, rat, hare, pigeon, duck, pheasant, cat...i wish.

i don't doubt for a second you can raise a perfectly healthy BOP on a 100% chick diet but i like to give a bit of variation...

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

A bit it seams from that list the bird wouldnt know what to expect next, Nice to see someone stick to there guns, no matter what the facts.

[James_Falconry1]

no1's has said keeping a bird on only chick. so no1's actually lazy.

I give chcik quail bit of duck fessy partridge, grouse once wish i et it tho bad decision tht was nd it was the last1. I wudnt feed pigeon to anythin apart from pure peregrinus to be honest. (IMO)


DOnt get wot u mean about the lazy bit, i dont thik any1 only feeds exclusively chick wot im sayin is it is a gd staple food with other more natural food added.

[Barbary Boy]

i like to feed as wide a variety of food as possable as well, but some times feeding large food items like rabitts for example result in the bird eating a lot of muscle, ie meat but gets very little bone or skin and fat, i allways like to break up the food item with a meat cleaver so the bone is available, its allso quite theraputic weilding a meat cleaver, you become invinceable and no one can touch you!! sorry about that i just come over all funny when i think of my meat cleaver. dripping with blood?

[James_Falconry1]

Same wid me BB wen i got me chainsaw and that bloody 50ft ash goes crack and drops. POWER. :D

Jimmy

[Hacker]

Afraid a bop does not need a varied diet just one that provides its dietry requirements .
You could feed it egg and chips if that is what it required.
A bird in the wild will tend to specialise on prey availability in its habitat.
That does not mean flying around expending energy just to catch something different to eat.
Think from the birds viewpoint not our`s.

[James_Falconry1]

Afraid a bop does not need a varied diet just one that provides its dietry requirements .
You could feed it egg and chips if that is what it required.
A bird in the wild will tend to specialise on prey availability in its habitat.
That does not mean flying around expending energy just to catch something different to eat.
Think from the birds viewpoint not our`s.



VERY GOOD POINT I lyk it

Jimmy

[Jack Merlin]

Afraid a bop does not need a varied diet just one that provides its dietry requirements .
You could feed it egg and chips if that is what it required.
A bird in the wild will tend to specialise on prey availability in its habitat.
That does not mean flying around expending energy just to catch something different to eat.
Think from the birds viewpoint not our`s.

I am sure you are right that birds of prey specialise in the wild but it seems to me that a whole fresh dead bird offers a wide variety of meat. For example, red breast meat (pure muscle), Leg muscle (which is different quality to pectoral muscle), kidney, liver, gizzard, skin, internal and subcutaneous fat, intestine, gut content (for vitamins), and even occasionally crop contents, not to mention feathers and bone!

Feed your bird fresh warm meat from a bird it finds tasty like game birds and pigeons and you will notice a dramatic improvement in performance and response. But each to his own. Don't mind me!<g>

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

Afraid a bop does not need a varied diet just one that provides its dietry requirements .
You could feed it egg and chips if that is what it required.
A bird in the wild will tend to specialise on prey availability in its habitat.
That does not mean flying around expending energy just to catch something different to eat.
Think from the birds viewpoint not our`s.
Amen common sense all too short a commodity in this day and age.

[Pitbull]

what did you more experienced falconers use before DOCs.

[Hacker]

i use to use docs even back in the 70`s

[Jack Merlin]

what did you more experienced falconers use before DOCs.

I joined the BFC in 1954 -- I have never used DOCs and don't intend to! But whether I am "experienced" you will have to decide for yourself.

[Stratocaster]

Its easy to be critical about docs in raptor diet, remember a good ninety five
percent of captive BOP owe their very existence to them, so they cannot
be all bad.
your points about feeding exclusive "natural" diets are good, and I agree
with the sentiment of it, but most woodpigeons,corvids ect are exposed
to seed dressings and other toxic chemicals for most of the year, also
they are heavily persecuted and some will be carrying lead shot,most
captive raptors do not have the luxury of an aqquired immune system
as do wild birds, where this is going is that captive populations are not
natural, so why risk problems?
I know lots of great falconers out there feed natural no worries.
but someone reading the post could worry the diet of their birds is
not good enough, de yolk most of your chicks, feed quail and lab rats
as variety and you will have no problem with diet.
being responsible for a lot of birds, I have no worries with doc, we
have peregrines and sakers in their twenties, until theres something as
available and disease free..........
regards Mike.

[Jack Merlin]

Its easy to be critical about docs in raptor diet, remember a good ninety five
percent of captive BOP owe their very existence to them, so they cannot
be all bad.
your points about feeding exclusive "natural" diets are good, and I agree
with the sentiment of it, but most woodpigeons,corvids ect are exposed
to seed dressings and other toxic chemicals for most of the year, also
they are heavily persecuted and some will be carrying lead shot,most
captive raptors do not have the luxury of an aqquired immune system
as do wild birds, where this is going is that captive populations are not
natural, so why risk problems?
I know lots of great falconers out there feed natural no worries.
but someone reading the post could worry the diet of their birds is
not good enough, de yolk most of your chicks, feed quail and lab rats
as variety and you will have no problem with diet.
being responsible for a lot of birds, I have no worries with doc, we
have peregrines and sakers in their twenties, until theres something as
available and disease free..........
regards Mike.

I feed pigeon when I can get it. Game birds are the second choice. Third is rabbit or beef. But I am interested in top style from one hawk. If I kept a lot of hawks, I might consider DOCs, but I don't. (My tiercel gos will jump to the fist from a kill knowing that he will get pigeon rather than pheasant!)

Never had a problem with lead shot. Frounce is an occasional nuisance but easily cured and the birds seem to be immune thereafter.

As I've said, each to his own. But I still won't be feeding DOCs! My guru (aged 76!) also feeds pigeons when he can get them, but DOCs as well. His peregrines fly very high indeed. Last season I saw his gyr-peregrine go up out of sight on a clear cloudless day! Poor beggar was probably desperate to catch a grouse to get some decent tucker for a change!<vbg>

[MattSpar]

I feed pigeon when I can get it. Game birds are the second choice. Third is rabbit or beef. But I am interested in top style from one hawk.

That's interesting. Are you saying then, that feeding day old chicks to your bird could, in some way, ruin its style of flying?

[OutFlying]

I use to feed my p/r goshawk solely on pheasant both during the moult and hunting but found it had negative effects on the imprint goshawk. I now feed higher quanties of lower quality food (rabbit / chick) and found this to work best for me.

Yours OF.

[Jack Merlin]

That's interesting. Are you saying then, that feeding day old chicks to your bird could, in some way, ruin its style of flying?

I don't intend to experiment to find out! Yes, I am prejudiced. As I said, I feed pigeon and could not wish for better performance. My gos has not eaten a day old chick in four years and I doubt if he ever will.

I answered an advert for a merlin a couple of years ago. I was amazed when the advertiser told me it was out of a THIRD clutch that year! He told me this was achieved by feeding mostly sky larks and woodpigeons. (He was doing clearance for the MOD and was licenced to kill any birds found on the air field).

If you are working animals or birds and want peak performance, you have to feed accordingly. I supplied a musher (sled dogs) locally with fresh beef for his dogs. He started winning! Then he changed to bagged food due to a change in the regulations -- the performance of his dogs has definitely suffered. I do not believe that DOCs can ever be as good as red meat.

We really need to open a bottle of whiskey to continue this discussion properly!<vbg>

[Pitbull]

Thanks for your imput.

Jack this was my thoughts also
I was told when i got my small MHH that he was hunted at 1lb 4,by his previous owner when I got him he wouldnt do anything unless it was a chick he was flashed. Well I soon kicked that out of him (not really). since having him I have never fed him DOCs and I am hunting him at 1lb 5 3/4 and steadily going up. his muscles and stamina, I and the breeder / Mentor are well impressed and beleives he will still be able to hunt higher. Today was a blustery day and had no problems at all flying into the wind, that much so when I couldnt see him I thought down wind when in fact he had flown about 300m upwind at the top of a hill.

but again just my thoughts I dont think myself an expert far from it, not even experienced. just enjoying.

[Hacker]

But surely, "red meat" is just muscle, you need to feed a bird more than just muscle , even dogs.
When my dogs are working through the shooting season they need more than just red meat.
As i said earlier, a balanced diet, some foods can supply better than others.
Natural foods have all the requirements, after all that is what the wild birds feed on.
But nowadays there is so much **** in the countryside how can you be sure that you are not feeding it.
Alright if you get your feed from a clear area, but how do you know.
Your birds either thrive or die.
not a risk i want to take, then what about lead ingestion.
How many pigeons/pheasants are carrying lead shot.
Again if you live in a sparsly populated area then good chance the pigeons will not be shot much, but down here in the south i think you would be lucky to find one that hasn`t got lead shot in it.
Pheasants are reared to be shot, they are not a natural species so again there is a good chance they may have been shot and *****ed, ie; shot, so contain lead.
At least by feeding docs,quail,rats etc you have some degree of control over knowing that you are not slowly poisoning your birds.
Allright it costs, but what is the cost, cheap and contaminated or slightly dearer but a bird that is alive and not knowingly hampered by a steady ingestion of poisons in the way of lead and chemicals.
I know which course i will follow.

[Hacker]

Thanks for your imput.

Jack this was my thoughts also
I was told when i got my small MHH that he was hunted at 1lb 4,by his previous owner when I got him he wouldnt do anything unless it was a chick he was flashed. Well I soon kicked that out of him (not really). since having him I have never fed him DOCs and I am hunting him at 1lb 5 3/4 and steadily going up. his muscles and stamina, I and the breeder / Mentor are well impressed and beleives he will still be able to hunt higher. Today was a blustery day and had no problems at all flying into the wind, that much so when I couldnt see him I thought down wind when in fact he had flown about 300m upwind at the top of a hill.

but again just my thoughts I dont think myself an expert far from it, not even experienced. just enjoying.
As your bird gets accustomed to you, their flying/hunting/weight will go up as they get used to you comared to their responsive weight when first obtained.
This is not due to type of food but to reinforcement habits.

[Pitbull]

Hacker I feed the whole Quail and I mean whole.
The rabbit I have read of people having problems with the bone but if my bird thinks he can handle the bone he tends too have that also, brains, kidneys, liver, heart,etc etc. Im not one that cuts bits off and chucks the rest.

are you saying he prefers me than his last handler then, or maybe I am doing something different that is making him hunt at a higher weight considering I have only had him for 10 weeks, but yes I would have too admit he has bonded too me as he spends approx 12 hrs a day with me if not longer.

But again thanks for all your thoughts. I do take them in. I am in the process of trying to find someone doing free range chickens that mabe that i can get young chicks from them.

[Sparrow Hawker]

Feeding day old chicks with yolk intact are a very good source of vitamin E, quail on the other hand are deficient in it hence why they try to enrich quail with vitamin E! By feeding DOC's and fed as part of a mixed diet they are very good for birds.

Birds that are fed with not much hard bone (i.e. quail, rabbit) and fed predominantly with chicks will have have to be coped more often because chicks contain soft bone! Some species are also susceptible to rickets if not given other types of food values.

HH

[FlameHairedFalconer]

Pitbull - just because he was wedded to chicks by his last owner there is no need to dismiss them as a food source. He could have been wedded to beef, or only flown if a rabbits leg was proffered - this was due to the methods his previous owner employed in training.

As for flying at a higher weight, that could be due to him getting more excercise and building up muscle than with his previous owner?

The only problems I have ever had with DOC was that 10 years ago getting good quality ones meant you had to pick them up freshly gassed from the hatchery and freeze them yourself. So they have not always been a convenient food source. And yes, I would still buy them if they doubled the price.

FHF

[Pitbull]

Cheers FHF Its not that he was wedded on them that puts me off. Its mor the business side of things I think. Company produces something....needs to make more money......cutbacks...cheaper food...maybe not as good a quality put into them, but to be able to buy them in at 3p I would say for a company to make money from them at that price they cant be putting much in.IMO. And I know they sell thousands of them. As I said I am looking for free range but i have the benefit of owning just the one bird.

Does anybody give there bird worms

[FlameHairedFalconer]

Does anybody give there bird worms

Nah, they normally find them for themselves!! My kestrel used to catch bumblebees from his perch and eat them!

FHF

[Sprout]

Good thread - nice one. As posted previously there is nothing wrong with DOC's as a basis for a diet - they are a good all rounder and being commercially reared are generally safe. I use them as a basis for my birds diet, using mainly quail and rat to supplement it. If feeding game birds or pigeon ALWAYS check the mouth and internal organs prior to feeding and ideally freeze pigeon first to kill trichomonads. Also with gamebirds, there is more of a risk regards lead shot.
A friend flew a perlin last year and diet definitely made a difference to performance. At the same flying weight it would fly much stronger and keener if it had quail the day previously than chick. I'm not convinced this is just down to "what" it was fed - more the amount. Quail being higher in energy meant less was fed compared to DOC's so the bird was keener and flying more on appetite than weight?? Something to thing about

[Hacker]

Cheers FHF Its not that he was wedded on them that puts me off. Its mor the business side of things I think. Company produces something....needs to make more money......cutbacks...cheaper food...maybe not as good a quality put into them, but to be able to buy them in at 3p I would say for a company to make money from them at that price they cant be putting much in.IMO. And I know they sell thousands of them. As I said I am looking for free range but i have the benefit of owning just the one bird.

Does anybody give there bird worms
docs are not produced for the pet food market, they are a bi product of the broiler market.
Your oven ready chickens are all hens m8. The docs are sexed and the poor old males are gassed and become petfood or fertiliser.
Law of economics in poultry farming.

[Hacker]

I used to look after and nurture 78,000 at a time.

[Sean]

Cheers FHF Its not that he was wedded on them that puts me off. Its mor the business side of things I think. Company produces something....needs to make more money......cutbacks...cheaper food...maybe not as good a quality put into them, but to be able to buy them in at 3p I would say for a company to make money from them at that price they cant be putting much in.IMO. And I know they sell thousands of them. As I said I am looking for free range but i have the benefit of owning just the one bird.

Does anybody give there bird worms
nope but sometimes when im am digging, rolf nicks one or two :mad:

[Mary Quite Contrary]

Fox uses additonal egg yolks for his breeding birds .

Have a look in his book for his breeding diet.

[Pink_Eagle]

when it comes round to moult and breedin season, i think the birds are much better off on food like R/P, mice and quail thn DOC we hav found the egg quality and condition of the birds is much better with a better diet thn jus DOC, my bird has quail/rp/mice 99% of the time

[Kentish Falconry]

Cheers FHF Its not that he was wedded on them that puts me off. Its mor the business side of things I think. Company produces something....needs to make more money......cutbacks...cheaper food...maybe not as good a quality put into them, but to be able to buy them in at 3p I would say for a company to make money from them at that price they cant be putting much in.IMO. And I know they sell thousands of them. As I said I am looking for free range but i have the benefit of owning just the one bird.

Does anybody give there bird worms

As Hacker has said DOC are a bi product but I do disagree that most of them are from Broiler Chickens. The majority are from specialist companies produceing Egg laying birds these are the ones we see most. In these birds they are naturally colour coded by selective breeding ie Brown is the Hen while yellow is the cock bird, Cocks do not produce eggs so are of no use to them so 50% of all these chicks are culled. The companies that produce egg laying chicks for the industry do not buy the cheapest food available for their breeding stock they only give the best so that they produce the best quality chicks. Broiler Chickens on the other hand are not colour coded and normally hatch either yellow or White these birds are normally sexed by hand viewing the vent or sexed at 7 days by looking at the way the wing feathers are growing. I used to pick up DOC from the chick sexing School in Hadlow Agricultural Collage and they showed me how to sex chicks these were broiler chicks.
Knowing what I do about the chick production industry I would rather buy chicks from these type of rearers than from an organic/Free Range strain of producers because the quality of the food given is better so the quality of the chick is better.
Terry:supz:

[MattSpar]

We really need to open a bottle of whiskey to continue this discussion properly!<vbg>


Hmm, a very civilised idea. To be heartily approved.

[Pitbull]

As Hacker has said DOC are a bi product but I do diagree that most of them are from Broiler Chickens. The majority are from specialist companies produceing Egg laying birds these are the ones we see most. In these birds they are naturally colour coded by selective breeding ie Brown is the Hen while yellow is the cock bird, Cocks do not produce eggs so are of no use to them so 50% of all these chicks are culled. The companies that produce egg laying chicks for the industry do not buy the cheapest food available for their breeding stock they only give the best so that they produce the best quality chicks. Broiler Chickens on the other hand are not colour coded and normally hatch either yellow or White these birds are normally sexed by hand viewing the vent or sexed at 7 days by looking at the way the wing feathers are growing. I used to pick up DOC from the chick sexing School in Hadlow Agricultural Collage and they showed me how to sex chicks these were broiler chicks.
Knowing what I do about the chick production industry I would rather buy chicks from these type of rearers than from an organic/Free Range strain of producers because the quality of the food given is better so the quality of the chick is better.
Terry:supz:



very intresting Terry thanks for that.
you learn something new everyday.

[Boobook]

interesting post guys - and not a slanging match for a change :grin:

[Hawkmaster]

MOVED FROM GENERAL FALCONRY

[Red-Devil]

Hmm, a very civilised idea. To be heartily approved.
can i come to

[Hells99]

We really need to open a bottle of whiskey to continue this discussion properly!<vbg>
Can I bring my own vodka? :D