Bell Block and Bens bells combined

[Ben C]

I am looking for a bell block and the correct tools....anyone know of a manufacturer and supplier of the equipment please?

[Saker-Sucker]

here you are mate.....................I was given another site a little while ago but the blocks on that one were Indian made and it stated that they are no way near as good as the British ones!!!!!
Not sure about these...........

http://www.rnhorological.co.uk/doming_blocks.htm

http://www.suttontools.co.uk/acatalog/Sutton_Tools_Doming_Blocks___Punches_13.html

[Ben C]

Cheers Clive...thats the closed season sorted :wink:

[Saker-Sucker]

These ones are the ones usually sold on Ebay and are not British made; scroll half way down, blocks, anvils and punches.....................

http://www.manchesterminerals.co.uk/acatalog/shop.html?http%3A//www.manchesterminerals.co.uk/acatalog/Shaping_.html&CatalogBody

[Jack Merlin]

These ones are the ones usually sold on Ebay and are not British made; scroll half way down, blocks, anvils and punches.....................

http://www.manchesterminerals.co.uk/acatalog/shop.html?http%3A//www.manchesterminerals.co.uk/acatalog/Shaping_.html&CatalogBody

Waste of money. You need the biggest punches and the biggest steel block you can afford. Even then, you may need to get bigger punches turned out of box wood.

[Saker-Sucker]

Waste of money. You need the biggest punches and the biggest steel block you can afford. Even then, you may need to get bigger punches turned out of box wood.

Yes I know, I put that site up to show people; there are a lot of people seeing them on e bay and thinking they are the dogs danglies; then bid silly money on them and to no avail.:supz:

[Ben C]

Had a chat with the guy at sutton........the punch and the tools should arrive tomorrow..........


Now all I need are the tools or hood making??? Any thoughts folks?

[Ben C]

I found a combination of the brass and steel blocks to work best, the intitial size is not a major issue but the working of the bell in he correct order is......I have a few pictures for you....I have a lot to learn but the initial prototypes are usuable. I have a couple being used on HH and the results are good. A couple on Goshawks that need to be re-thought. And one set on an Eagle, that will only be used for the initial training...then the newer nickel ones will hopefully be in place.

[Dave G]

ben c is that nail varnish :) or you not to good on the hammer ;)

[Ben C]

You know the answer you cheeky monkey....(Email your addy :yawinkle: )

[Dave G]

ben send me a pm and will give u me email addy cheers dave

[Ben C]

Can't mate...PM's are a bit messed up at the moment......

[SparsTheOne]

right i,m haveing trouble solidering mine together,what flux are you useing m8.



jase.

[Dave G]

ben will do it laters or over the otherside ;)

[Ben C]

right i,m haveing trouble solidering mine together,what flux are you useing m8.



jase.


Jase: It is a ******.....its not the flux that is the problem I can solder them together with and without......how are you holding them together? But most importantly how big is the gap between each joint??? Or indeed how clean are the joins???

Flux is bog standard from B&Q........solder is non-lead the same.

[Kevin Massey]

ben can you not make a revolving jig that fits into a vice or summut?

[Ben C]

Yes that is how Asborno does it....but I am a lazy ****** at the best of times....:supz:

The best way I have found so far is to solder the cuff on first, polish back the lip as it becomes oxidised and then slip the nose of a pair of long nosed pliars UNDER the cuff and hold the flux coated halves together. Then gently edge the two halfs into the flame AFTER heating the solder.

[Ben C]

Have a look at this........

http://www.americanfalconry.com/bells.html

However these are machined and so do not compare to hand made bells which are TOTALLY different...I can't compete with machined ones at all.....:yawinkle: :yawinkle: :yawinkle: But then thats not why you make stuff is it???

[Jack Merlin]

Jase: It is a ******.....its not the flux that is the problem I can solder them together with and without......how are you holding them together? But most importantly how big is the gap between each joint??? Or indeed how clean are the joins???

Flux is bog standard from B&Q........solder is non-lead the same.

You are using silver solder, aren't you?

Assuming that, borax is the traditional flux. You can also get it in a liquid/solution form from jewellers' merchants. This is quite handy as you can paint it on the area you want to solder with a small paint brush. I suspect borax will dissolve in water to give you the sdame thing but I always did it the lazy way! If you want, you can also exclude solder from other areas by painting with Fullers Earth.

Yes, you need to make up a jig to hold the two bell halves together. Hold each half against a grinding wheel or sander to get the surfaces flat and square, then hold the two halves together with some sort of jig. You could heat an old hacksaw blade to red heat in the middle, then bend it to a U shape. Or make up a jig with a couple of springs. A G clamp will also work.

If you use the liquid solder, you will find it will creep into the join between the two bell halves by surface tension. When you apply the solder, it will follow the flux. You will also find the solder will "follow the heat" so use a needle point on your butane torch to move the solder to where you want it. Your joint SHOULD be clean if you have ground/filed down the surface of each bell (where it will be soldered to its mate).

The tighter the joint between the two halves the better. Also, if you get into this a bit deeper, you'll want to get a hard solder with good "gap filling qualities" so it will fill any larger gaps.

Hope this helps. If you want to know the answer, the best way is to ask!<g> Been there, done that. Have fun!

[Ben C]

Thanks Derry,


I watched your video and it was helpful................

But if I am honest a jig is not needed un-less you want to work that hard...it is also best to use a dremel as you can adjust everyhing to mm perfection.

the hard solder is interesting.......never heard of that.

Jack, what metal did you find best, I have used nickel and brass and copper....mixed them up and found it VERY interesting. Also what dapper was best for creating a louder noise, also what about the slit???

Thanks

Ben

[Jack Merlin]

Another thought.

I used to get silver solder in paste form. This was quite good because I could dip both halves (where they'd be joined) into the paste, clamp them together, then apply heat. Dead simple. But you'll have to research specialist solder suppliers as I've lost my contacts book.

[Ben C]

Regarding the solder it is important to be aware that the dapper can...and DOES get soldered into the bell if the solder is applied from anywhere other than the outside. (and it does even when applied ouside)...I have shouted and sworn numerous times and burnt the carpet so so SO many times...........:supz: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: But I am not an expert....merely a messer.

[Kevin Massey]

http://cgi.ebay.com/SILVER-PASTE-SOLDER-1-2-OUNCE-HARD_W0QQitemZ5009699277QQcategoryZ10323QQssPageNa meZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[Ben C]

Thanks Mass,

I will try it but, I still have doubts about it leaking down the inside if not used carefully..........and for one such as myself this may prove one degree of workmanship too much.....:twisted: :rolleyes: :lol:

[Ben C]

Sequence for those who have not seen it.....:yawinkle:

[Ben C]

next steps..

[Ben C]

finally...

[Ben C]

Key points to remember are heating then plunging....Blackbird knows the exact reasons why...:supz:

But it takes about 2 hours of focused work to get a bell of any quality....the hammering and final finish are the key....as is a full and total solder or the bell fails to ring out correctly.

After a couple of duds I am now going to use ball bearings as the dapper...the allen key is fine, but anything else seems to dull the noise as it fails to allow the bell to vibrate perfectly.

[Kevin Massey]

Cooling the metal too fast will temper the steel...does this have any effect?

[Ben C]

From what Bb told me the atomic structure becomes crystalline and so is easier to work. On a few of my bells I heated at each stage and unlike common knowledge this had no real effect. The main aspect to getting a good noise is primarily the dapper, metal used and clean solder. Also the size of the slit has a MASSIVE effect. The drilling is one thing (as you know was passed on by SJH) also has a major effect.

I dropped one by accident and created a hair line fracture in the solder and the noise just fell away totally.......however I re-sealed it and sent it along and the results were pleasing......ask Bod!!!!! :supz: :supz: :supz:

But I will be straight up.....some work some don't...OF has a set that he compared to counces's....now this guy is a genius bell maker so the competition was stiff. However mine of course failed to mach up in terms of size and noise. But in my favour his are machined!!!

[Kevin Massey]

I dropped one by accident and created a hair line fracture in the solder and the noise just fell away totally.......

will this be an issue when using on the bird?...or was it also a soldering problem?

[Ben C]

Not really although only time will tell......I proper '****ed it onto the floor. I was polishing it and it zipped up into the sink, flew over the basin and hit the floor hard...nothing like what would happen in a hunting situation.....but never say never eh?

When you get your pair try ****ting them on the floor and see what happens.......they come with a lifetime gauruntee......:rolleyes: :!: :cool:

[OutFlying]

Key points to remember are heating then plunging....Blackbird knows the exact reasons why...:supz:

But it takes about 2 hours of focused work to get a bell of any quality....the hammering and final finish are the key....as is a full and total solder or the bell fails to ring out correctly.

After a couple of duds I am now going to use ball bearings as the dapper...the allen key is fine, but anything else seems to dull the noise as it fails to allow the bell to vibrate perfectly.

Why not use a small "BA size" nut for the dapper, saves cutting up allan keys.

[Kevin Massey]

.they come with a lifetime gauruntee......:rolleyes: :!: :cool:

Lifetime of the bell gaurantee???

na only asking the obviouse ben

[Ben C]

Yes...indeed......excellent idea. My train of thought is that the hexagonal shape is for 'dinging' the side more...well a ball bearing has more surface area than a nut??? So maybe this might work!! I will try both and let you know.

[Ben C]

My lifetime mate...as long as I am alive I'll fix em......:heart: :supz:

[Kevin Massey]

Yes...indeed......excellent idea. My train of thought is that the hexagonal shape is for 'dinging' the side more...well a ball bearing has more surface area than a nut??? So maybe this might work!! I will try both and let you know.

i would say the mass surface area would be the same on either myself...but ay i aint doing the equasion ting again:rolleyes:

[Ben C]

Having said all this.....from my limited experience none of that matters if you have not worked the metal and soldered EXACTLY!!! And with hands as steady as mine that is no mean feat!!! :cool: :wink:

[Tim Laycock]

Why not use a small "BA size" nut for the dapper, saves cutting up allan keys.

I believe this will be louder than the ball bearing

[Ben C]

Interesting mate.........why? It seems that the smaller the section of Allen Key the louder and more melodic the ring???

[Kevin Massey]

ben maybe the nut/allen key...has more apex's?

[OutFlying]

The ball bearing will be a smooth surface against a smooth surface - it will have the ability to roll smoothly on the inside of the bell, making it silent.

The small ba nut will produce the best sound.

[Tim Laycock]

More points of contact with The internal sufaces of the bell, hence more "Ding A Ling"

[Ben C]

Funny you should say that because I butchered a brilliant bell from a Czech manufacturer and he had a Octagonal ball bearing.......beautiful bell.....from the bloke who had a leopard that you could slip at Hare.........:supz: :supz:

[Kevin Massey]

Funny you should say that because I butchered a brilliant bell from a Czech manufacturer and he had a Octagonal ball bearing.......beautiful bell.....from the bloke who had a leopard that you could slip at Hare.........:supz: :supz:
cheetah?

[Ben C]

No it was a fair game.................PMSL

[OutFlying]

Funny you should say that because I butchered a brilliant bell from a Czech manufacturer and he had a Octagonal ball bearing.......beautiful bell.....from the bloke who had a leopard that you could slip at Hare.........:supz: :supz:

Ben - Ball bearings are round and "ball shaped" :rolleyes: , theirs a clue in the name.

Jim

[Jack Merlin]

Thanks Derry,


I watched your video and it was helpful................

But if I am honest a jig is not needed un-less you want to work that hard...it is also best to use a dremel as you can adjust everyhing to mm perfection.

the hard solder is interesting.......never heard of that.

Jack, what metal did you find best, I have used nickel and brass and copper....mixed them up and found it VERY interesting. Also what dapper was best for creating a louder noise, also what about the slit???

Thanks

Ben

Hard solder is the generic name for silver solder through to brass alloy brazing rod (or solder). There are many different types and grades of solder. It looks as if the Pakistani bells are brazed. Not quite sure how they do it.

The dapper, or clapper as I'd call it, is simply a piece of iron wire nail of the correct diameter cut off with bolt cutters or a small hack saw. I then had a small indentation in a block of steel I'd pop this into and hit it with a hammer, moving it each time, until I got a multi-facetted sphere -- in other words, a rough ball! The sound is made when the hawk moves and the clapper rolls slightly so another of these faces strikes the internal surface of the bell. A ball bearing, as you will soon discover, won't work.

With care, a bell can be opened up by putting a knife blade in the slot and twisting gently. To close it, gently beat the slit with the flat of the knife, or lever it out as need be. If you can't do that, you'll have to melt the solder, knock the two halves apart, and re-solder which is a bit tedious.

I used to go to a London non-ferrous metal supplier and buy sheet brass "bending brazing, half hard" quality. The thickness is quite critical for a good tone (sorry, I've forgotten), also the LENGTH of the slit. To make the tone lower, lengthen the slit.

As you've discovered, a small crack (or too long a slit) will spoil the tone. I have NEVER bought a new bell in my life. Don't tell anyone, but I beg cracked bells off my mates and repair them. They are then better than they ever were! I have a pair of genuine original Asborno's on the tiercel gos (scrounged, then repaired).

I see from your photo that you seem to trim the outer rim of the dome. Why? If you cut the disc carefully, there will be less of a rough edge on the half bell and you can rub it square on the flat of a file or on the side of a grinding wheel.

If your clapper is getting soldered, you are using too much solder. Just cut off a very small piece, place it on the area you want to start soldering, then use the blow lamp flame to run it around the join. I'm assuming here that you've got your bell with the face of the half vertical (90 degrees to the illustration of Asborno solding his bell). I found that easier.

Remember, brass (and other non-ferrous metals)hardens with work but is softened (annealed) if you heat it and suddenly cool it. This is the opposite of steel. I would not bother to anneal the brass before working it, just go gently.

[Jack Merlin]

The main aspect to getting a good noise is primarily the dapper, metal used and clean solder. Also the size of the slit has a MASSIVE effect.

Apparently, working non-ferrous metals, i.e. hitting them repeatedly with a hammer, sets up stresses within the metal which causes it to harden. It is this which causes the two domes soldered together to resonate when struck. Sound is, after all, just vibration. Tempering steel has the same effect.

I did a lot of research on this when I was a student in London. There are some fantastic libraries down there -- and there was always Hatton Garden and jewellers to consult too.

Not really a good idea as I failed my exams as a result and got chucked out of college! :( But on second thoughts, I am probably better off!<g>

[Ben C]

I trim the outer piece purely for practical reasons...when clay modelling or sculpting it is better to have more than not enough!!! It also allows me to put the half dome back into the process and work it thinner and thinner, without it jamming in the block!

The best sounding metal is nickel....well to my rock and roll ears anyway!

[Ben C]

And a few more...ones for GOLDIES eagle and a Bi-coloured set for Mickeydredd.

[Ben C]

But it all comes at a price.....blood and scars from the dremel and the hammer.

[Dave G]

ben lad looks like those hands were made for washing up not the hammer m8 ;) get a plaster on those cuts they look nasty pmsl

[Ben C]

Jack Merlin:

I am not sure about yourself but did you like the fact that each bell has it's own 'voice' and that they are all individuals??? It is a weird thing to even talk about but they are almost like surrogate children.....:oops: :oops: :oops:

[Dave G]

ben i think they look quite neat m8 a different looking bell ?? abit like the xmas tree barbell ??? if you know what i mean

[Ben C]

Yep...RHH your right...I was a bit worried myself mate :yawinkle: BUT I have perfected a new acorn bell which is a ****** to work!!! If your nice I may send you a mixture of the two!!!!! Anyway it is the sound that counts surely.

[Jack Merlin]

Jack Merlin:

I am not sure about yourself but did you like the fact that each bell has it's own 'voice' and that they are all individuals??? It is a weird thing to even talk about but they are almost like surrogate children.....:oops: :oops: :oops:

Yes, even the Asborno site mentions that! I think it says somewhere in that article how bells are selected to make up the pairs. A good thing too, so when you get older you can select for bells you can actually HEAR!<g>

Looks like you are enjoying yourself -- AND getting good results. When I was into this, very few people were making them and bells were hard to get. Beer money for a hard up student was even scarcer so I shipped them all over the place. Glasier bought dozens off me.

[Ben C]

Too right Jack...however I am not going to charge..........JUST YET:supz:

Re-reading the Galsier book, he is rather disparaging about the amount of effort required for what is ostensably little reward (in his opinion).....I will tentativel have to disagree with him on this VERY small point. Its is great fun and easily the best way to waste a few hours in the off season.

However if the cost of setting up and working out a bell is divided by the amount produced I am still very much in debt........unless of course I charged £30 a set............and that is not likely to happen :rolleyes: :yawinkle:

[Jack Merlin]

Too right Jack...however I am not going to charge..........JUST YET:supz:

Re-reading the Galsier book, he is rather disparaging about the amount of effort required for what is ostensably little reward (in his opinion).....I will tentativel have to disagree with him on this VERY small point. Its is great fun and easily the best way to waste a few hours in the off season.

However if the cost of setting up and working out a bell is divided by the amount produced I am still very much in debt........unless of course I charged £30 a set............and that is not likely to happen :rolleyes: :yawinkle:

Glasier was an awkward sod and had nothing good to say about English pointers (which did not elevate him in my opinion!) but I think he was the first person to make bells here in the UK. He, in turn, taught the Royal Naval Air Station (as it was then) falconers at Lossiemouth how to make bells and I learnt from them. He has my respect for this and a lot of other things he did for falconry in the face of the usual opposition from "the establishment" against anything new.

[Ben C]

Absolutley.

I am not in any disagreement AT ALL.....But he does say how it is not worth the effort unless you are a major DIY nut case...I think that is perhaps why people don't try it........

[Tim Laycock]

Its the set up cost that stops me :lol: (Suprised?)

I have only bought one bell in my life and begged the one currently on my Gos from Liam last year

When you sent me yours, you doubled my stock Ben :yawinkle:

[Ben C]

Don't worry there will be a few more in the post mate....soon:supz: :supz:

[Ben C]

Found this link for those interested......has all you need, including rotating soldering bench and the silver paste solder...........Hatton garden as well Jack......:yawinkle:

http://www.rashbel.com/products.asp?cat_id=154&width=1024&height=768

[Jack Merlin]

Found this link for those interested......has all you need, including rotating soldering bench and the silver paste solder...........Hatton garden as well Jack......:yawinkle:

http://www.rashbel.com/products.asp?cat_id=154&width=1024&height=768

Flouron, that's the liquid flux I used to use. Paint it on to the area you want the solder to stick to. Bingo! You can also paint the clapper with Fuller's Earth so the solder won't astick to it, but I think your problem is being too lavish with the solder! Actually, I don't think the revolving table would help, but it might. Easy enough to make something up anyway.

If you ever get the chance to go to Hatton Garden, there are a couiple of good shops there which sell everything. There are also specialist suppliers who sell every type of brazing, welding, soldering consumables you could ever think of. Being a tight fisted sort of bloke, I cantacted the sales guys and got a lot of stuff as "free samples"! Siolver solder, for a start, comes in a whole range of melting points, hardnesses, strengths, gap filling, etc. you wouldn't believe!

[Ben C]

What I after is how to go about getting the 2 tone layer on the surface of the bell......Salam Ali (spelling) has a pair on the link below that are very decorative and although time consuming would be interesting to use and make. I am currently looking for an engraver to place the name of the hawk or falcon on the side of the bell.

http://www.themodernapprentice.com/bell.htm

[Saker-Sucker]

Ben, I would imagine the the 'detail' on the bells is 'stamped' into the metal before doming!!!! all marked out as to where the slit is going etc.

Could you not do the engraving your self with a Dremel? I know it wont be perfect looking but it would do the job.

[Ben C]

Clive:

I was thinking that the 2 halves may be brass and then have a coating of silver electrolite over the top. Then they are soldered and cut back...if you see what I mean.

I have tried using the dremel to engrave and it slips all over the place...VERY VERY tricky.

[Jack Merlin]

I have tried using the dremel to engrave and it slips all over the place...VERY VERY tricky.

Get yourself an engraving scribe. Not sure if that is the correct name but it is like a very small chisel and they come in various shapes and sizes. Not as difficult to use as you might imagine. But bear in mind that by engraving bells, you weaken the metal.

[Ben C]

Please go on Jack.......I intend engraving the top half, near the cuff so as not to effect the sound of the bell. Please explain further if you will....!

[Jack Merlin]

Please go on Jack.......I intend engraving the top half, near the cuff so as not to effect the sound of the bell. Please explain further if you will....!

There you go! Everything you want to know including a live web cam!

http://www.lindsayengraving.com/

[Ben C]

Stunning....but I will have to save my pocket money for one of those!!! And I think I will:supz:

[Jack Merlin]

Stunning....but I will have to save my pocket money for one of those!!! And I think I will:supz:

You could always make one. (Shock! Horror!)<g>

Get an old file (or any old piece of quality steel -- how about high tensile bolts? Or large masonry nails?), heat it to red heat, then let it cool slowly, then cut the shape you want with a grinding wheel. Then, re-temper. If in doubt, do a Google on the heat treatment of steel. The scribe needs to be harder than the metal you are cutting, that's all. No big deal.

How those Egyptians ever built the pyramids without a credit card, I'll never know!<vbg>

[Ben C]

They built them with slaves if I recall Jack (the pyramids hat is).......not sure if I am allowed those in the house :yawinkle: :yawinkle:

I thought it vibrated like a grinder?? Or am I wrong?

[Jack Merlin]

I thought it vibrated like a grinder?? Or am I wrong?

That's the nasty, cheap way to engrave. Not the proper way at all. Look at the tool on the front page of the site above. Just like a small chisel with a round flat handle that fits in the palm of your hand. You simply push it forward across the top of the metal and it gouges out a small furrow -- bit like a plough.

Another thing you could try is etching. Dip the bell in wax, then the wax is cut away with a similar instrument to an engraver. It cuts through the wax to let the acid work on the metal. Maplin sell kits for etching circuit boards -- exactly the same procedure.

I used to clean my bells with concentrated Nitric Acid. Powerful stuff! Not sure if you can get it now but I used to buy it over the counter at the chemists in London.

I had a load of bells being cleaned when the telephone went. By the time I got back, the lot had disappeared. Also quite useful stuff for disposing of the mother-in-law's cadaver. I think that is what Dr Crippen used....but then they caught him so perhaps not such a good idea.

[Ben C]

Jack:

I have looked into the acid etching of the metal.....(stupidly I have done this sort of etching when printing years ago at art college. Why I didn't think of it is a mystery to me :oops:)

What I need now is tips on how to go about electrolyting a coating onto the bells before soldering....what battery do I use and does anyone know about the various metal solutions and how to make them up. Which is the anode (bell???) and which is the cathode???

ta

[Jack Merlin]

Jack:

I have looked into the acid etching of the metal.....(stupidly I have done this sort of etching when printing years ago at art college. Why I didn't think of it is a mystery to me :oops:)

What I need now is tips on how to go about electrolyting a coating onto the bells before soldering....what battery do I use and does anyone know about the various metal solutions and how to make them up. Which is the anode (bell???) and which is the cathode???

ta

Google is your friend! This one I don't know. Never done it.

[TheZuffler]

I used to etch guns with nitric acid. A rubbed transfer was used of the required lettering etc.. (the sort of transfer you get from WHSmith, that you rub over with a pencil). Then built a dam of plasticine around the stencil, sealed any cracks in the stencil with a vulcanised paint, poured in 10-15% solution of nitric acid. You could increase the speed of the process by heating the part gently in an oven. The process with transfer and vulcanised paint was also used when electrolyting the barrel, however electrolyting was a process I wasn't involved in, but may be able to find out a little more. These were done on (big) guns however and it would be a little difficult to transfer on to a bell.

[Ben C]

Zuffler: the theory is the same. I like the idea of the stencil....may be worth a shot if I can keep my hands steady!

[TheZuffler]

Zuffler: the theory is the same. I like the idea of the stencil....may be worth a shot if I can keep my hands steady!

Stencils are good, if you get any creases you can just smooth them down. I found you get better adhesion if the surface is cleaned with alcohol based cleaner and warm (very warm to touch but safe enough to handle, this should not alter the state of the metal either). Any cracks were just painted over!:yawinkle:
I have also etched glass in a similar fashion but using an paste based solution. For this I used fablon (sticky back plastic for the Blue Peter watchers) which worked great with a paste. I wouldn't trust it as much with a liquid based solution as it may get under creases. However you could apply the fablon and then cut the desired shape out with a craft knife (remembering to clean the glue off the surface). Hope this helps.

[Ben C]

Ok for those that want to know........(I went and asked the science tech at work :rolleyes: :supz: )

Electro plating works thus.

Metal bar charged with negative power....cathode
Solution of the same metal....i.e copper sultphate, nickel sulphate
Bell attached to the positve power.....anode

both bar and bells dipped in solution and the power turned on....the metal ions then pass from positve to negative and low and behold you get a coating on the positve (bell) end.

I will set it up next week and get some pictures.

I suspect the variables will be the % concentrate of the solution and the power...this will have an effect on the coating depth.

[Dave G]

hi ben hows your fingers and are you getting better hitting the metal ;) any more pics of them mate and not the black nails lol the bells lol how do mine sound m8 ;)

[Ben C]

Yours, Griffs and Saker Suckers are cut up and ready to be worked by the end of this week and then they will be finished sometime next week after the mess that will be the falconry fare................they will be brass and so will sound LOUD mate.

[Dave G]

:supz : m8 i carnt wait m8 cheers

[Ben C]

I am about half way through making a step by sep guide to my own bell making on DVD if anyone would like a copy??? It should be ready in a 2 weeks time. Totally free of charge............

[MickeyDredd]

I am about half way through making a step by sep guide to my own bell making on DVD if anyone would like a copy??? It should be ready in a 2 weeks time. Totally free of charge............

Ben

You are a truly sh*te businessman and will end up spending your old age an alcoholic and peddling your a*se in London! :lol:

[Hawkmaster]

What about people at least paying for the P&P and burning costs~?

[MickeyDredd]

What about people at least paying for the P&P and burning costs~?

Indeed, thats the least we should do.

Either that or if he sells any bells (discount rate for Forum members ;) ) you get a free dvd.

Ben, I shall speak to you in the morrow!!

[Ben C]

Ben

You are a truly sh*te businessman and will end up spending your old age an alcoholic and peddling your a*se in London! :lol:

I am half way there mate :supz: :supz:

I'll tell you what, I send a few out for a review and if it comes back as a goer THEN I'll charge P&P and burning......hows that????

[Hawkmaster]

Ben Send me your Paypal account and I will send you a fiver and review it!
Paul

[Ben C]

You can have a copy for free....so long as your nice:supz:

I

[Jimmy]

What would it take to get a copy sent to me in the US?

Jimmy

[Ben C]

Your address........................:supz: :supz: :supz: :supz:

[Jimmy]

I'll pm it to you. Thanks!

[MickeyDredd]

I'll tell you what, I send a few out for a review and if it comes back as a goer THEN I'll charge P&P and burning......hows that????

That is more sensible and still very reasonable! :lol:

You will need all the money you can get for the Croatian estate investment ;) :lol:

[Jastreb]

Ben you are the KING :D
And I was just thinking to have some deal with you for bells for Croatian market, but in this case it will be much better than I taught :D :lol:
Mike knows the job :wink:
Cheers Viktor

[MickeyDredd]

Ben you are the KING
And I was just thinking to have some deal with you for bells for Croatian market, but in this case it will be much better than I taught :D
Mike knows the job :wink:
Cheers Viktor

Viktor

The lad has potential, I am merely assisting him on his long journey to international fame and fortune in the falconry world :lol:

I on the other hand set my standards extremely low and fail miserably to achieve them ;)

Rgds
Mike

[Jastreb]

Good man you are Mike :lol:

[Ben C]

Viktor

The lad has potential, I am merely assisting him on his long journey to international fame and fortune in the falconry world :lol:



Fortune???? Fame?????.......whats that, camping in a muddy field and talking through a loud speaker while everyone slates you...I'd rather stay in my little hole banging on my metal. :supz: :supz: :supz:

[Dave G]

glad to see the thumbs had healed ;) ben c theres a market out there for you ben ?? call them black thumb bells :rolleyes: pmsl

[Jastreb]

call them black thumb bells :rolleyes: pmsl
:lol: :lol:

[Ben C]

:supz: :supz: :supz: :supz:

[Ben C]

OK........Giff and Romeo your bells went out this morning. Clive I have yours ready to send in the morning. PM your addy.

[HawkMan]

BENc have you any bells for a female spar m8 ,ill pay the asking price ,Thanks
Jb

[Dave G]

cheers ben i will give my views on the black thumb bells ;) once they arrive thanx again cheers dave

[Dave G]

ive just recieved a set of ben c black thumb bells ?? thats what ive named them due to the state of bens nails after making them ;) ,well i must say they are a very good bell (brass) and have a nice tone too them and just as loud as mr peels bells which i had made as im as deaf as a coot ?? i will be putting them on my harris once the hunting season starts again cheers ben i owe you a :drinkers:

[Harris]

ive just recieved a set of ben c black thumb bells ?? thats what ive named them due to the state of bens nails after making them ;) ,well i must say they are a very good bell (brass) and have a nice tone too them and just as loud as mr peels bells which i had made as im as deaf as a coot ?? i will be putting them on my harris once the hunting season starts again cheers ben i owe you a :drinkers:

god mate, new bells, new telem!! you're makin sure you don't lose that bird :yawinkle:

and how does anybody know that coots are deaf!! is it because they don't come when called :rolleyes:

[Dave G]

:rolleyes: god knows about the deaf coots was trying to think of something else lol ,well im sure with bens bells and me telem i will have him till hes an old man ??? and never loose the little sod ;)

[Ben C]

ive just recieved a set of ben c black thumb bells ?? thats what ive named them due to the state of bens nails after making them ;) ,well i must say they are a very good bell (brass) and have a nice tone too them and just as loud as mr peels bells which i had made as im as deaf as a coot ?? i will be putting them on my harris once the hunting season starts again cheers ben i owe you a :drinkers:


Excellent news I glad they are fine...put them on the scales and see how much they weigh compared to the others as well mate ;)

[Ben C]

BENc have you any bells for a female spar m8 ,ill pay the asking price ,Thanks
Jb


I have done a prototype spar bell that Blackbird has. A nickel and brass one which has a nice tone. But they are so small as to be very fiddly with the sound. i have a bit of a back log at the moment so I can't promise you anything just yet. Give me a month or two though.

[Dave G]

ok the weight of the bells i have 1st noble size 3 3/8 oz , 2nd medium dessi bells 1/2oz , 3rd ben c bells 3/8 oz and 4th andy peels bells 1/2 oz ?? ben i thought your bells would have weight more than that being brass well done m8 :cool:

[Ben C]

:wink:

[StormRider]

How much are your bells Ben? They sound pretty good.
STU

[GriffMJ]

Received Bens Bells today... I must say Ben ...for a first timer they are great!!! prob a little bit too big for my Tiercel...BUT they would be perfect for a Falcon AND they sound excellent as well :)

I will take a pic of them on him when the Tiercel arrives.

I value my fingers to much to even attempt making bells :D

[Sprout]

Ben sent me a set a while ago - the best compliment I can say is they will be on my bird this season!!!!

[Ben C]

Received Bens Bells today... I must say Ben ...for a first timer they are great!!! prob a little bit too big for my Tiercel...BUT they would be perfect for a Falcon AND they sound excellent as well :)

I will take a pic of them on him when the Tiercel arrives.

I value my fingers to much to even attempt making bells :D

Excellent....I shall endeavour to move onto the next size down on the block then. But I will clear my first back log, then start again!

Appreciate the kind words folks as its what keeps me burning holes in the carpet. :supz: :supz:

[Finnish]

Pic's please come on Ben..........http://www.falconryforum.co.uk/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif

[Pitbull]

ive just recieved a set of ben c black thumb bells ?? thats what ive named them due to the state of bens nails after making them ;) ,well i must say they are a very good bell (brass) and have a nice tone too them and just as loud as mr peels bells which i had made as im as deaf as a coot ?? i will be putting them on my harris once the hunting season starts again cheers ben i owe you a :drinkers:


whats the tone like


ow ow ow ow :lol:

[Saker-Sucker]

A big thanks to Ben as my new bells arrived today........................to tell the truth, I am bloody suprised at the quality of these:supz: ..............................................I only have 1 critisism...................I've got 2 birds:lol: :cool:

i took some pics but only one out of all the ones taken seemed clear enough; I put them with 1 of my Noble no.9 and no.0's to give you an idea of the size of them.................................the cut outs or slits are clean and proffessional looking and I think that the freebies should now stop.

A JOB VERY WELL DONE BEN, I'M IMPRESSED;.......this time next year, you'll be a millionaire!!!

[GriffMJ]

The Noble "0" is about the size you want for the Tiercel bells .. Ben :) Like Clive ... I to was suprised by the excellent quality of the bells :supz:

[Lee Slikkers]

and I think that the freebies should now stop.

A JOB VERY WELL DONE BEN, I'M IMPRESSED;.......this time next year, you'll be a millionaire!!!

Well I too agree they look very nice and prefessional but can't agree on the "freebie" comment...at least not quite yet huh Ben?? LOL

Good stuff

Lee

[Ben C]

Well I too agree they look very nice and prefessional but can't agree on the "freebie" comment...at least not quite yet huh Ben?? LOL

Good stuff

Lee


Yours will be ready when you get back from NZ with a big trophy mate. :supz:

[Ben C]

The Noble "0" is about the size you want for the Tiercel bells .. Ben :) Like Clive ... I to was suprised by the excellent quality of the bells :supz:


Yep I have gone that small quite successfully Griff so no problem there. As I say give me a bit of time, we are in the middle of marking coursework, so it may be a few weeks. :yawinkle:

[Dave G]

yes i must agree a very nice bell and very well made good stuff benc ,oHHH and remember ben ive got the rights to your bells the black thumb bells ;) :supz:

[Jimmy]

I bought a block and some dappers. I can tell you, it's harder than you think to dap out a bell......

[Lee Slikkers]

Thanks Ben, I'll be sure to snap some pics of the hunt/trip.

Lee

[Ben C]

I bought a block and some dappers. I can tell you, it's harder than you think to dap out a bell......


:yawinkle: :supz: :supz: Ohhhhh YES.......just wait till you get to the fiddly bits then!!! Good Luck.

[Ben C]

Set up the electrolyte today so I will leave it a few days and post some pictures of before and after. But it looks promising.

[Ben C]

Pulled the tester bell this morning and I must say the coating has worked well(ish), its relatively even and has a nice burnt orange to it. However the sound has been slightly reduced. I have a feeling the coating should go on BETWEEN construction so as to clean the inside surface and perhaps the dapper. I will post up the before and after for those who are remotley interested :rolleyes: :lol: :roll: .

[Jimmy]

Ben,
I must have missed a post. What are you soaking them in?
I'm still struggling trying to get the hang of beating out the shape of a bell.

[Saker-Sucker]

After yesterday flight, I noticed that one of the bewits was almost hanging off, so today I fitted one of Ben's Bells...........................I could still hear them from a good 500 yards out, and 1 no.5 Noble and 1 of Ben's compliment each other:supz: .........................................

just to prove I am sporting this years model..........................

[Dave G]

great stuff clive ;) mine will be fitted once hes finished the moult as they have a very good sound to then dont you think cheers dave

[Saker-Sucker]

......unless she goes walk-about this year, I'm hoping to fly her through the moult; I might keep it as is so Kier can have one as well. I was able to hear both bells from a good distance so a job very well done. :supz:

[Dave G]

i mixed bells last year too clive as my harris lost one ?? so he ended up with a noble size 3 and a medium dessi bell they sounded very good together cheers dave

[Ben C]

Ben,
I must have missed a post. What are you soaking them in?
I'm still struggling trying to get the hang of beating out the shape of a bell.


I am using copper sulphate electrolyte to coat the brass and then I can etch back into the surface to create designs etc etc. Whats the problem with the metal Jimmy?

Saker Sucker................:supz: :supz: :supz: :supz:

[Jimmy]

Not sure that there's a problem with the metal so much as with my technique. I really don't have a clue if I'm even doing it correctly. Having never seen it done before, I'm going about it quite haphazardly. Looking forward to watching your DVD to see the correct steps!

[Ben C]

Jimmy: The sound goes on tonight as I have just bought a mic for the voice over. I like to think of the metal as like a boxing bout. Tap and move tap and move. I must make a 1000 hits with the hammer per bell half. I have learnt that just whacking it does no good. I'd rather have 20 light hits than 10 whacks as the metal will tell you off by splitting. Move from the largest dome to the smallest over a period of about 20 minutes.

But I am no expert.

[Jimmy]

That's pretty much how I've been doing it. It didn't take me long to figure out that one hard hit would ruin 15 minutes of work.......
It's time for me start figuring out the soldering now.

[Ben C]

The two halves should just sit tight one on top of the other. They should be totally flush and have little or no gaps between them. Make sure the surfaces are clean and that the outside edge between the joins is also clean. Smooth some flux on the edges and also around the outside.

Heat the solder until it forms a blob THEN heat the bell, then place the solder blob against the two halfs. You may have to move and touch the sides of the bell in three different places in order to get a good seal.


Make sure you have a slit in the bottom of the bell and have soldered the cuff on first or it all falls to pieces. :supz: :supz:

[Ben C]

I have now finished the DVD, not the most amazing quality but it is rather helpful, even if I do say so myself. I will be sending out freebies to those who asked. Then it may be for sale if anyone is interested (£5)

[Hawkmaster]

Sounds really good Ben, look forward to it.:wink:

[MickeyDredd]

Jimmy: The sound goes on tonight as I have just bought a mic for the voice over.

M.C. BenC in da house!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

[johnny abbott]

just received these bells from benC

[xshadowstorm]

just received these bells from benC
did you sort out my bells did you get your pics workin??????????????

[Yarak1]

just received these bells from benC

Are they the new transparent bells Johnny?..lol.......where's the pic mate..........:wink:

[johnny abbott]

Are they the new transparent bells Johnny?..lol.......where's the pic mate..........:wink:john im **** on this computer mate hopefully i will be shown how to post pics

[xshadowstorm]

john im **** on this computer mate hopefully i will be shown how to post pics
see you to moz mate i will sort it out for you

[Yarak1]

john im **** on this computer mate hopefully i will be shown how to post pics

When you go to post scroll down and there is a link for " manage attachments.........click on it and it will open a window up........at the top it says " browse".....click on that and select the file with pic in..double click the pic.........it will appear in the browse bar...to the right click on upload......it will upload the file.....then click submit.........

[Ben C]

see you to moz mate i will sort it out for you


Are the bells for you???

[xshadowstorm]

Are the bells for you???
if johnny is gettin them yea

[Ben C]

excellent....are they for the male or female?

[xshadowstorm]

excellent....are they for the male or female?
the male

[Defender]

i have seen them bells wot ben c made they have nice sounding tone well be ordering a pair for my fhh:supz:

[Ben C]

and at £10 a pop they are cheap.

[johnny abbott]

ben c bells

[Dave G]

bens new line of bell smashing they are called the black thumb bell ;)

[Jimmy]

Okay guys,
I've managed to make a set of bells. They look pretty bad and don't ring that great, but they do ring!! It's definitely harder than you think to make your own bells. Thanks for the inspiration Ben. Can't wait for the DVD!

[Jimmy]

Seems the pics of my bells suck almost as much as the bells themselves.......

[Ben C]

Jimmy,

If that is your first set they are spot on.....on my first pair I forgot to put the dapper in, so your one step ahead of where I was mate.c:supz: :supz:

What I will say is get yourself a good dremel, and you will be able to sand back the two halfs after they have been soldered. That way you will thin the brass further and get rid of any un-sightly solder that blobs around the two halfs.

Without question you need to drill some holes at either side of the slit. Not least because it will prevent the bell from splitting but also make the tone louder.

the DVD should be with you in a week. I sent it off yesterday.

[Jimmy]

I forgot the dapper on the second pair :-) Had to take the bell back apart and resolder it.

I've got a dremel and use it to clean up the sloppy stuff. I've also been using a belt sander to sand the two halves so that they fit flush together. It works great.

I'm gonna start drilling holes in the slits as well. The slit seems to make quite a difference in the tone, doesn't it. I altered the slit on two bells, and the tone got worse, and it wasn't that good to start with. Are you drilling the holes before you cut the slit, or after the bells are put together?

A friend came by last night and I showed him my bells. He wanted to try making himself one. He's addicted to it now also.

I have found a new hobby for the off season :supz: :supz:

[Ben C]

Cut a SMALL slit in the base of the bell BEFORE soldering. Then sand it all back so its even, then drill your holes and then cut the slit.



Don't forget to HEAT the metal first. :supz:

[Jimmy]

What are you using to cut the slit?

I've been using a small cut-off wheel on the dremel.

[Ben C]

Get the smallest you can find...1 mm is ample. Then it's a case of a steady hand and cutting away from you on one half, then turning the bell and cutting away from you again.

[MickeyDredd]

I've got a dremel and use it to clean up the sloppy stuff.

******, thats gotta hurt :shock: :lol: :lol:

[Jimmy]

:lol: :lol::lol: :lol:

[Ben C]

Have the parcels arrived folks??? HM and Mass??

[Kevin Massey]

I finaly watched it today....even though if i am totaly honiest with you Ben i want the bothered in going to watch it.....

But i am glad i did...it was excelent:supz: well presented very informative and also very interesting....and what i would say is the "Haynes video manual for making bells"..... please dont be offended but i am shocked how much i liked it... Maybe cos its a propper dvd on making bells...not just a bit of home video.... Are you planning to sell them?

[Ben C]

The bells in the DVD are the ones that I gave to Blackhawke at the falconry fare....nice and loud.

I am selling copies for £5 if anyone wants one, plus P&P of course. I have sent a copy to BB as well, if anyone else wants one just PM me!

Ta

Ben

[Kevin Massey]

I am selling copies for £5 if anyone wants one, plus P&P of course.

£5 well spent i-m-o...

maybe you could send lee (finnish) and paul (hawkmaster) a copy and the could do an evaluation for you aswell

[Ben C]

Hawkmaster has one as well as a set of bells......do I hear from him?? DO I HELL, I want a divorce the bitch!

[Kevin Massey]

Ben he is struggling with his pc at the moment

[Finnish]

Ben just spoke to Paul mate and he said the dvd was very good mate... Can't wait to get mine...:D

Hawkmaster has one as well as a set of bells......do I hear from him?? DO I HELL, I want a divorce the bitch!

[Ben C]

No worries.......but I still want that divorce:supz:

[Kevin Massey]

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y40/mass2k5/bcfront.jpg

[MickeyDredd]

Ben he is struggling with his pc at the moment

Lets Party :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :lol:

[Kevin Massey]

Lets Party :twisted: :twisted: :lol:

not on my shift:supz:

[Ben C]

Who wants it???? Free to a good home....it is truely a great DVD.

Mike?? send your addy???

[MickeyDredd]

Who wants it???? Free to a good home....it is truely a great DVD.

Mike?? send your addy???

Done! You certainly have been ;)

[Ben C]

OK, Bell production is back in swing and I have these folks on the list:

Big Joe Joe
Lee Slickers
Johnny Abbot x 2 (one brass one nickel)
Nemisis
Defender
Stewigan
Teresa
Finish


Is there anyone I missed???? I should be doing a pair and evening then its half term, so expect them within the next 10 to 12 days folks!

[Jimmy]

Just recieved Ben's DVD. Thanks, and good job mate! I have been making mine very similair to the way you do it. The biggest difference is your blocks. I've only been using a brass one. And my dappers are a LOT smaller than yours. None of mine are as big as the domes on the block, which means my bell halfs aren't as "perfect". You seem to have a dapper for each size dome, and I don't. The end result is pretty much the same though. I'll be ordering some new dappers and doming blocks now. My bells still aren't quite as loud as I would like, but they are usable. And each one is better than the last. Won't be long before I'm turning out "the good stuff".....

[Ben C]

Jimmy,

As I say the brass is good for the bigger stuff as it is softer at that end of the process. The steel one is much better at the thinner end as it is tougher and will punish the bells thinner and thinner. It also marks the bell dome when you have made a mistake, so unless you want to have wasted a whole hour it forces you to be that much more careful.

without question you need to go down in dapper size everytime you move down the dome.

Well thats what I have found anyway.

[Ben C]

OK bells under way......this is the list so far all complete by the middle of next week. 8-) :supz:



Johnny Abbot x 2 (one brass one nickel)
Lee Slickers
Nemisis
Stewigan
Teresa
Finish

[Finnish]

OK just watched the DVD. What can i say it was really good.:D If anyone wants to make bells it shows you a step by step way. And is really good detail.. Cheers for that Ben i was well impressed...:supz:

[GriffMJ]

Hi Ben

Just got your Tiercel bell .... "spot on" :D Its clear ... loud .... crisp... (well made) and I will definatley be using it :!:

:supz: Well done Ben and thank you.:supz:

[Ben C]

No worries folks.......a pleasure.

The second bell will be on its way Griff, once I have split the half dozen it takes to make just one :oops: :oops:

[Finnish]

Ben i noticed on the DVD you used Unleaded soilder. Does it matter if it's unleaded or leaded...

[Ben C]

YES!!!!! As you know one is poisonous to BOP's the other is not......I am just being ultra cautious mate.

[Finnish]

Ok just wonder if there was any other reason....

[Ben C]

Not that I know of mate...........in fact it was Lucy that bought the stuff and pointed it out to me! The lead thing never even crossed my fragile little mind!!!

[Finnish]

It's funny i use soilder ever day and never use leaded. It just don't run the same as unleaded....

[Defender]

hi just got my new bells of ben c very nice bell and it has an excellent tone heres a picture of them cheers ben

[Ben C]

They have a slit that is so tough no beak can pry it apart.....:supz:

[Iamtheweasel]

Lol!!!

[MickeyDredd]

They have a slit that is so tough no beak can pry it apart.....:supz:

The bells are good.....but I cant get the dvd to play :rolleyes:

[Kevin Massey]

The bells are good.....but I cant get the dvd to play :rolleyes:

thats cos his origonal batch are vcd.... i did point this out to ben....and i am in the process of sorting it for him mick:wink:

[MickeyDredd]

thats cos his origonal batch are vcd.... i did point this out to ben....and i am in the process of sorting it for him mick:wink:

Cheers Kev! :lol:

[Ben C]

Just go and buy a new laptop richo posh ******.

[Finnish]

I had the same problem. Did not work down staires but it worked up staires...:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :lol:

The bells are good.....but I cant get the dvd to play :rolleyes:

[Kevin Massey]

Thread merged at Ben's request

[Ben C]

I had the same problem. Did not work down staires but it worked up staires...:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :lol:

Yours are on the block as I type mate.....should be with you wednesday:supz:

[Ben C]

I have now completed:

Sewigans
Johnny Abbots
Finish
Parabuteo.D

In the post tomorrow boys...enjoy!

[BlackHawke]

so my bells are famous now ben in glorious technicolour????:) i wont use em so when your famous i can sell em for a small fortune!!!! cracking bell ben glad your selling em:supz:

[Nemesis]

Hi all just got a set of nickel plated bell,s of ben c and would like to thank him ,nice and clear well made bell.s if you are thinking of geting some you will not be disapointed /dave:supz:

[Ben C]

Excellent: I cannot wait for you hand made walking stick as payment mate :supz: :supz:

[Finnish]

Got mine today very nice Ben. Good ring to them to. Top Man..:supz:

[StormRider]

Ive just received mine this morning and they are very good. That video he has made is very professional and a great learning tool for those who wish to make their own bells. I have made my own bells for a few years now and I still crack an awful lot of material in the process. He has made it look very simple and straight forward and explains each process very well.
Well done Ben.
Regards
STU

[Ben C]

Good news people..........well happy!!!!!! :supz: :supz: :supz:

[Kevin Massey]

Top Bombing:supz:

[Big JoeJoe]

great bells you sent me Ben and thank you again.

Cheers Joe

[Parabuteo.de]

Hi,
got Bens Bells today. They are really great! Good looking and really loud and good tone. Will test them on my new FHH this Summer and write a review about these fantastic bells. Hope they stay as good as they are now!

Tank you Ben!!!!

Claas :)

[Lee Slikkers]

Ben, just wanted you to kmnow I received the bells (and the other stuff) and all of it is top notch!!! The bells sound great and appear to be very well made...I'll report back in the fall after my bird has thrashed them about a bit and let you know how they hold up.

Thanks again, your generosity is impressive!

Regards,

Lee

[MitchellBrad]

I must concur. Ben makes great bells. I plan on showing them to my friends but they'll have to order them from Ben. Ain't getting mine!

Come and visit. We'll show you a great time hawking and trapping.

Brad

[Ben C]

Brad: You guys certainly go mad for the bells. Out of all the DVD's I have sold 70% have been to the USA.

[Lee Slikkers]

Brad: You guys certainly go mad for the bells. Out of all the DVD's I have sold 70% have been to the USA.

Ben,

It's the molt over here and most of us are simply trying to keep ourselves out of trouble so maybe making bells is one of the solutions? I am neck deep in some attempts at making a couple decent hoods.

Lee

[Jastreb]

Just watched Ben's bell making DVD, and I must say it's awesome :supz: :supz:
Who haven't seen it, must go and buy it emediatly, no kidding great DVD!!!!!
Any serious falconer must have that!!!!!!!!
Cheers Viktor