first birds!

[SycoPaff]

Right! i what to know what peoples problem is with starting with certain birds?

i keep reading post saying 'you must be mad starting on that bird' and 'i'd get a harris if a were you mate'! and so on!

i just want to know why!

i can understand the fear of someone screwing up a good bird but the harris shouln't 'the bird to f##k up' before you ''go up a level''!

i just annoys me because i really dont think there's much of a difficulty level with different birds! its just some need more time!

Please give me your veiws!:grin:

[Moses]

mate u ever worked with a goshawk mate from the start

how tricky was it to train one up young not an imprint but a pr


cheers

[SycoPaff]

mate u ever worked with a goshawk mate from the start

how tricky was it to train one up young not an imprint but a pr


cheers
not me but my polish friend takes his from the wild! GIT! would love to do that! i'v worked with falcons mostly!

[Moses]

not me but my polish friend takes his from the wild! GIT! would love to do that! i'v worked with falcons mostly!


no worries mate, cheers

[Pitbull]

Right! i what to know what peoples problem is with starting with certain birds?

i keep reading post saying 'you must be mad starting on that bird' and 'i'd get a harris if a were you mate'! and so on!

i just want to know why!

i can understand the fear of someone screwing up a good bird but the harris shouln't 'the bird to f##k up' before you ''go up a level''!

i just annoys me because i really dont think there's much of a difficulty level with different birds! its just some need more time!

Please give me your veiws!:grin:


time and knowledge, then being able to transfer that into practise and anything is possible

[SycoPaff]

no worries mate, cheers
i do know its not that hard! mainly lots of hard manning! you need alot of trust between you and your gos to get good result and nice high hunting weights!

[Moses]

i do know its not that hard! mainly lots of hard manning! you need alot of trust between you and your gos to get good result and nice high hunting weights!



cheers bud, does your boss not keep any in his falconry place

cheers

[Ben C]

Where would you start then sychopaff??

[SycoPaff]

Where would you start then sychopaff??
any! i dont think it matters! as long as you understand that you have to put the time and effort in! more so with some birds!

[SycoPaff]

cheers bud, does your boss not keep any in his falconry place

cheers
nah! he has problem with all birds! bit of a c#ck! and a rich daddy! he's having trouble with a m/saker! mans with the hood on! and all his birds HAVE to be flying in two weeks! tit! lol

[Ben C]

any! i dont think it matters! as long as you understand that you have to put the time and effort in! more so with some birds!


When you say any....what do you mean???

[Moses]

nah! he has problem with all birds! bit of a c#ck! and a rich daddy! he's having trouble with a m/saker! mans with the hood on! and all his birds HAVE to be flying in two weeks! tit! lol



lol sounds a **** :D

[Tim Laycock]

any! i dont think it matters! as long as you understand that you have to put the time and effort in! more so with some birds!

Just playing devils advocate here:)

Understanding that manning and effort are required to different degrees is an exellent start but this old chestnut cant be and does not apply across the board!
For instance I understand that you would like to start with an accipiter

Do you understand for instance that diet plays a big part in the training of an accipiter, I dont just mean how much you feed it, I mean what you feed it?

Weight control also.
How good is your weight control?
Do you understand the effects of weight control during the manning of an accipiter as opposed to a buteo and how different weights and states of condition affect the hawks mental state and therefore its receptiveness to manning input?

Behavioural interpretation,
Can you interpret your hawks body language and posture and from this draw upon your experience to know if picking the hawk up is going to be positive or a negative experience for it.
Would you know when to do things and when to leave well alone?

Goshawks are taken to be a beginners bird in many countrys and it is quite possible to train a goshawk as your first bird with help but in most of these countrys they are the beginners bird simply because of availability not suitability

I hope you take this as it is meant, I would hate for you to set out on your chosen course only to fall at the first hurdle

[MattSpar]

Just playing devils advocate here:)

Understanding that manning and effort are required to different degrees is an exellent start but this old chestnut cant be and does not apply across the board!
For instance I understand that you would like to start with an accipiter

Do you understand for instance that diet plays a big part in the training of an accipiter, I dont just mean how much you feed it, I mean what you feed it?

Weight control also.
How good is your weight control?
Do you understand the effects of weight control during the manning of an accipiter as opposed to a buteo and how different weights and states of condition affect the hawks mental state and therefore its receptiveness to manning input?

Behavioural interpretation,
Can you interpret your hawks body language and posture and from this draw upon your experience to know if picking the hawk up is going to be positive or a negative experience for it.
Would you know when to do things and when to leave well alone?

Goshawks are taken to be a beginners bird in many countrys and it is quite possible to train a goshawk as your first bird with help but in most of these countrys they are the beginners bird simply because of availability not suitability

I hope you take this as it is meant, I would hate for you to set out on your chosen course only to fall at the first hurdle

Good advice. Within reason, it's not purely the amount of time you spend manning. It's the quality of that time.

[As The Falcon Her Bells]

Well in my humble opinions there is some birds which should be a absolute "no go" for any beginner, unless they have a very experianced mentor.
To start with; small birds, for example a parent reared sparrow hawk....
I know by experiance that it is easier to make all people on the forum to agree then it is to keep a parent reared spar alaive unless you really know what you are doing. (I did not..)
With a first bird you will have to learn weight control (im mainly talking about parent reared birds here), with a larger bird like a hawk or a buzzard, you can afford smaller misstakes, and they will happen as no matter how many books you read, weight control is about reading your bird and feeling its keel, not about putting it on a pair of scales, with a small bird a tiny misstake can and most likely will cost the birds life.

The other one is eagles, expecially aquillas (however they are spelled)
If you by wrong treatment get an agressive buzzard or harris, or even a gos, they will harm you, and could in very exeptional cases cause serious damege, but...if you get an agressive Goldie or any larger bird, it will very very likely cause serious damege, again I am speaking from experiance.

I dont think a gos is a complete no go for a beginner, but it depends on what kind of beginner you are.....
The Harris has opened up a "new world" of falconry as a guy/girl with a "normal" 9-5 job can get away with flying their harris only at weekends when the winter is dark, with a gos this will not be possible and you will really need plenty of time, not for manning, but for hunting!

The times I meet people in their middle age talking to me and say "I am thinking of getting a bop, I always wanted one, I just never really had the time, but Im thinking of one now"
I normaly say "dont bother mate, If you really really wanted one you would have got one by now"
What I mean is that people that has falconry "in the blood" seem to create a life around falconry, choose jobs and partners which makes falconry possible to be a big part of their life.

[Puzo]

There is no substitute for experience. Though I'm sure those with no experience will say this is a crock of *****!!

[Ben C]

If you get a Harris for the right reasons and you fly the f u c k e r properly over the correct amount of land for longest time and at the correct quarry, then it is un-likely that you'll send the poor creature on to a better place while you 'move on up'.

Match the hawk to the quarry and get the correct advice and you'll be flying the same hawk for many a year...regardless of the species.........IMHO!!!

[Jackson]

its not all about "mesing up the bird"!
its just hh are easier than most bops (as are some other birds e.g. rts)!!!
also it depends on evryones idividual confidence level - if your not totally confident and you wanna start of nice and easy then hh and some other bops are better for that purpose! however some people find jumping in at the deep end better for them so they start of with something some may consider harder!!
however to stay safe many people recommend hh so people dont go get something like goshawk or somethign which they may find harder to train and have problems with!!!
this is just what ive picked up through doing my research and asking around, other people may differ in the views so i say evryone to their own!!!

blackbird and as the falcon her bells have put it very nicely!!!

[MattSpar]

With a first bird you will have to learn weight control (im mainly talking about parent reared birds here), with a larger bird like a hawk or a buzzard, you can afford smaller misstakes, and they will happen as no matter how many books you read, weight control is about reading your bird and feeling its keel, not about putting it on a pair of scales, with a small bird a tiny misstake can and most likely will cost the birds life.

Except that with a small hawk, it's a very great deal easier to detect a gain, or loss of condition on the scales, rather than by feeling its keel, and then one has to have an idea what the keel should feel like. With something like a spar, by the time a loss of condition is felt in this way by a novice, it may well be too late. The idea of weighing a hawk, and the correct interpretation of the information gained by doing so, is one of the few things that's made falconry easier to practice.

[MickeyDredd]

its not all about "mesing up the bird"!
its just hh are easier than most bops (as are some other birds e.g. rts)!!!


May I ask how many RT's you have trained?

[Ben C]

Amazon your right in many respects, but I have tried my hardest to make my HH the best little thing I could ever make him.......and I SWEAR it is not easy. Flying him everyday....in all weathes, climbing hills for hours on end, just for 20 minutes of soaring. Fitness, using a lure, the hood......the list is endless..........ferrets, dogs.....I could go one :rolleyes: :yawinkle: :rolleyes:

Yep I could pull him once or twice a week and drop on to a rabbit, but that would be sooooooooooo boring and lack any form of fun or style.

HH are not easy......as no animal should be if USED properly. :heart:

[Jackson]

May I ask how many RT's you have trained?

none but almost evryone ive spoken to said they are good beginners bops!! although i am aware of the mistakes people do make with them!!! like i said ive only got what ive learnt from other people to go on!!

[Jackson]

Amazon your right in many respects, but I have tried my hardest to make my HH the best little thing I could ever make him.......and I SWEAR it is not easy. Flying him everyday....in all weathes, climbing hills for hours on end, just for 20 minutes of soaring. Fitness, using a lure, the hood......the list is endless..........ferrets, dogs.....I could go one :rolleyes: :yawinkle: :rolleyes:

Yep I could pull him once or twice a week and drop on to a rabbit, but that would be sooooooooooo boring and lack any form of fun or style.

HH are not easy......as no animal should be if USED properly. :heart:

exactly benc!! but thats easier than a spar or gos (so ive heard anyways)!!

[MickeyDredd]

Amazon

I do understand what you are trying to say, however i'm sure none of your learned friends would describe the task of training a FRT as "easy".

I despise this term immensely when talking about training a hawk, especially in regard to the HH as this is why we have so many ornamental, unwanted, aggressive and mistreated HH in the UK.

[Jackson]

Amazon

I do understand what you are trying to say, however i'm sure none of your learned friends would describe the task of training a FRT as "easy".

I despise this term immensely when talking about training a hawk, especially in regard to the HH as this is why we have so many ornamental, unwanted, aggressive and mistreated HH in the UK.

i didnt mean easy as in anyone could train them (im not that stupid - altho some may disagree)! its just compare them to a gos or eagle or something like that - i dont know how to explain it!! how would you reword my phrase "easy"???

[ChakChek]

Amazon

I do understand what you are trying to say, however i'm sure none of your learned friends would describe the task of training a FRT as "easy".

I despise this term immensely when talking about training a hawk, especially in regard to the HH as this is why we have so many ornamental, unwanted, aggressive and mistreated HH in the UK.

id have to agree with you....no bird is going to be easy to train, just because of their nature if you get what i mean...your in effect taming and trained a wild animal that is one of the most succesful preditor on the planet. its all going to be down to how much your willing to put in and what you want to get out of it. If your doing it just to get somehting that will hunt for you then your an idiot. If you wanna do it to learn and become part of falconry then good on you.

as for the red tail and being easy to train comment....WTF?! haha, seriously from what iv been told be someone who had one a few seasons back, i wouldnt consider one until iv been through a fair few succesful seasons. on the other hand, if you are willing and want to get something else out of it like i said, then i dont doubt you will be able to do it

[As The Falcon Her Bells]

Except that with a small hawk, it's a very great deal easier to detect a gain, or loss of condition on the scales, rather than by feeling its keel, and then one has to have an idea what the keel should feel like. With something like a spar, by the time a loss of condition is felt in this way by a novice, it may well be too late. The idea of weighing a hawk, and the correct interpretation of the information gained by doing so, is one of the few things that's made falconry easier to practice.

Very true, and I know what you are saying, it was mainly meant in generall on birds, to many new people are to hooked up on scales and forget to look and read their birds, a lot of people dont even know what I talk about when I say "what does the keel feel like"?
I am mainly saying that I dont think eagles or smaller birds make good beginners birds unless you have a good mentor around or you really really have the right comintment towards the bird
I hope I come across clearly as I am unfortenatly a bit ****ed.....:oops:

[Ben C]

exactly benc!! but thats easier than a spar or gos (so ive heard anyways)!!


Amazon: You have been reading and listen well, but when you get your own hawk you will hopefully see that it is not as cut and dried as that!!! :supz:

Many people train a gos and do a bad job, in fact about as many who probably make a hash of a HH or a RT.......just because a person has bought a hawk/falcon does not mean they are WORTHY of the animal...:supz: :supz:

I could own a porche, but still drive it at 30 mph if you see what I mean???


keep thinking and learning amazon...rock on.

[Jackson]

id have to agree with you....no bird is going to be easy to train, just because of their nature if you get what i mean...your in effect taming and trained a wild animal that is one of the most succesful preditor on the planet. its all going to be down to how much your willing to put in and what you want to get out of it. If your doing it just to get somehting that will hunt for you then your an idiot. If you wanna do it to learn and become part of falconry then good on you.

as for the red tail and being easy to train comment....WTF?! haha, seriously from what iv been told be someone who had one a few seasons back, i wouldnt consider one until iv been through a fair few succesful seasons. on the other hand, if you are willing and want to get something else out of it like i said, then i dont doubt you will be able to do it

true what your saying and there are many factors to consider before you get the bop like time, quarry etc!!! but if you compar the hh to a gos or spar then youll see my point!!
in regards to rts ive heard people say hopw hard and aggressive they are but ive heard just as many people say how it ws their first bop etc like a hh!! this is just what ive read around and would never suggest anyone can get hh and understand the sport of falconry!!! and Chakcheck i agree falconrys not all about going into the woods or sumfing leting the bop goi and geting a catch - you need to understand the bop and work withit to be successful and realy appreciate the birds and the sport!!




cheers Benc for the support!! im still listening and learning so hopefully when i get my hawk i can do it justice!!!

[ChakChek]

[QUOTE=Amazon]and Chakcheck i agree falconrys not all about going into the woods or sumfing leting the bop goi and geting a catch - you need to understand the bop and work withit to be successful and realy appreciate the birds and the sport!!QUOTE]

exactly. i think that this is more important than most things. i see falconry as the most amazing and rewarding "man and beast" sernario. the respect you will give your bird will get given straight back at you which i think is just amazing

[Jackson]

[QUOTE=Amazon]and Chakcheck i agree falconrys not all about going into the woods or sumfing leting the bop goi and geting a catch - you need to understand the bop and work withit to be successful and realy appreciate the birds and the sport!!QUOTE]

exactly. i think that this is more important than most things. i see falconry as the most amazing and rewarding "man and beast" sernario. the respect you will give your bird will get given straight back at you which i think is just amazing

the reason im into falconry - eveything else is just a bonus for me!!

[Ben C]

Amazon:


What hawk will you get?

[Puzo]

There is something to say for starting with a bird you realy want to fly. If you aspire to fly longwings, there's not much point getting a harris. The poor unfortunate HH has to endure the reputation for being a beginners bird, an avian L plate. A step that has to be taken on the road to "the hawk I really want". Then the unfortunate "novices bird" can be bequeathed to some other aspiring learner. Birds usualy aquire this beginners tag, due to availability rather than ease of flying/training. No bird is easy, not if you seek to fly it well. So I think, with the exception of small accipiters, which will expire of cramp at the slightest excuse to do so. It's not such a bad idea to start with a bird you really want to fly!
Perhaps others will disagree?!

[Renton]

There is something to say for starting with a bird you realy want to fly. If you aspire to fly longwings, there's not much point getting a harris. The poor unfortunate HH has to endure the reputation for being a beginners bird, an avian L plate. A step that has to be taken on the road to "the hawk I really want". Then the unfortunate "novices bird" can be bequeathed to some other aspiring learner. Birds usualy aquire this beginners tag, due to availability rather than ease of flying/training. No bird is easy, not if you seek to fly it well. So I think, with the exception of small accipiters, which will expire of cramp at the slightest excuse to do so. It's not such a bad idea to start with a bird you really want to fly!
Perhaps others will disagree?!

A Harris' that is fit and at hunting weight can produce brilliant sport; please don't decry them just as a beginners bird.

[GoodFooter]

a lot of opinions seem to be on views on whether you should start on what is thought to be an easier bird to train or dive in at the deep end and start on what you want to end up with. Many people want to experience more than one birdand lets face it you can learn an awfull lot from each type... for example the humble buzzard, fairly easy to tame,fairly easy to train, tricky to kill but bit more tricky to enter and it takes a lot more skill and perserverance to get them hunting well.... so hey presto you have learnt more about field craft and weight control. The accipters i have flown have been a hell of alot more difficult to mann but easy to train (alot easier to kill especially the small ones) and easy to enter and sucessfull hunt with hence teaching me a different skill. it may be horses for courses but training and sucessfully flying more that one bird does give you more experiance......the good thing is that the HH bridged the gap being a great beginners bird but an even better experianced persons one. so unlike the buzzard if a relative begginer does want to move on there will be a place for that HH somewhere.

[Puzo]

A Harris' that is fit and at hunting weight can produce brilliant sport; please don't decry them just as a beginners bird.
I wasn't decrying them as beginners birds, anything but. I was trying to point out the inadvisability of obtaining a bird, that is not the one you really want to fly, just because you've been told you should start with a harris. This reputation, however undeservedly earned, has done the poor unfortunate HH no favours I agree they are can be brilliant birds, & they deserve a far better reputation. To fly any bird with the skill it deserves is not easy. No bird warrants the tag of "easy"!!

[Moses]

Just playing devils advocate here:)

Understanding that manning and effort are required to different degrees is an exellent start but this old chestnut cant be and does not apply across the board!
For instance I understand that you would like to start with an accipiter

Do you understand for instance that diet plays a big part in the training of an accipiter, I dont just mean how much you feed it, I mean what you feed it?

Weight control also.
How good is your weight control?
Do you understand the effects of weight control during the manning of an accipiter as opposed to a buteo and how different weights and states of condition affect the hawks mental state and therefore its receptiveness to manning input?

Behavioural interpretation,
Can you interpret your hawks body language and posture and from this draw upon your experience to know if picking the hawk up is going to be positive or a negative experience for it.
Would you know when to do things and when to leave well alone?

Goshawks are taken to be a beginners bird in many countrys and it is quite possible to train a goshawk as your first bird with help but in most of these countrys they are the beginners bird simply because of availability not suitability

I hope you take this as it is meant, I would hate for you to set out on your chosen course only to fall at the first hurdle


nice post my friend

[Renton]

I wasn't decrying them as beginners birds, anything but. I was trying to point out the inadvisability of obtaining a bird, that is not the one you really want to fly, just because you've been told you should start with a harris. This reputation, however undeservedly earned, has done the poor unfortunate HH no favours I agree they are can be brilliant birds, & they deserve a far better reputation. To fly any bird with the skill it deserves is not easy. No bird warrants the tag of "easy"!!

Very true. However, if someone is not prepared to put in the groundwork into getting, at least, the basic essentials of training/hunting a bird and just buys a gos/ peregrine or whatever and then f*cks up/loses the bird: what comes off worst? The bird.

[Puzo]

Very true. However, if someone is not prepared to put in the groundwork into getting, at least, the basic essentials of training/hunting a bird and just buys a gos/ peregrine or whatever and then f*cks up/loses the bird: what comes off worst? The bird.
The bird allways comes off worse. Look in C&AB every week.Birds passed on because, they've been ruined, the former owner thinks it's time to move on to something else. It's usualy the poor harris on the receiving end. It's became the avian equivalent of the lurcher. Any fool can buy one for peanuts, keep in a shed untill they realise they're out of their depth, or the novelty wears off. Then pass it on & on. I think it deserves better, much better.

[Renton]

The bird allways comes off worse. Look in C&AB every week.Birds passed on because, they've been ruined, the former owner thinks it's time to move on to something else. It's usualy the poor harris on the receiving end. It's became the avian equivalent of the lurcher. Any fool can buy one for peanuts, keep in a shed untill they realise they're out of their depth, or the novelty wears off. Then pass it on & on. I think it deserves better, much better.

Only too true.

[Zam]

There is something to say for starting with a bird you realy want to fly. If you aspire to fly longwings, there's not much point getting a harris. The poor unfortunate HH has to endure the reputation for being a beginners bird, an avian L plate. A step that has to be taken on the road to "the hawk I really want". Then the unfortunate "novices bird" can be bequeathed to some other aspiring learner. Birds usualy aquire this beginners tag, due to availability rather than ease of flying/training. No bird is easy, not if you seek to fly it well. So I think, with the exception of small accipiters, which will expire of cramp at the slightest excuse to do so. It's not such a bad idea to start with a bird you really want to fly!
Perhaps others will disagree?!

Personally, I think this is a really tricky question.

Puzo - you say it is not a bad idea to start with the bird you really want to fly.
Try this for an hypothesis :

What if you really want to fly a female imprint Golden? No beginner in their right mind would try that (I hope !!) So, you take everyones' advice, and start with a Harris. Fly that for a bit. Maybe get bored with all the comments about Harris's being a beginners bird. Failing to realise the birds potential, you sell it on and get a RT. Have a bit more trouble with this one - sell it on quick and try...ummm.... a GOS!! And so it goes.

After all, people have told you - you can't fly a Golden without tons of experience. For experience read "numbers of birds I've gone through......."

So, do you go straight for it, get a Golden and the local hospital becomes a home from home - or do you plod through a dozen birds - all to get "experience" before buying the eagle?

Meanwhile, what about all the birds you've gone through??

Sorry to ramble - but I think it is tricky. Everyone wants to try new experiences - but you cannot start with an eagle -so you have to start with something more forgiving - NOT EASIER necessarily. But what about your cast-offs?

Maybe someone should bring out a car-sticker - "A Harris is for life - not just for experience":wink:

[Puzo]

Z Some very good points. I considered the goldie a bit too pricey for most pseudo-falconers. Which, upon reflection was probably stupid, coz there's allways someone. I also hoped no eagle breeder would sell one to someone with no experience. You're right, you do need to gain experience.I've said this before, but there is no substitute for experience. Only those with none will disagree!

[Jackson]

Amazon:


What hawk will you get?

red tail!!! or hh!!
but soo want a rt!!

[Claire]

Before harris's were easy to get most were advised to start with a buzzard, unfortunatly after a year or so the poor buzzard would be passed on to another beginner when the owner can't get it hunting. At least with a harris you can hunt. Personally I started with a kestrel after flying my bird at a centre for years. Generally I wouldn't recommend the small birds without experience but only because a small mistake could cost the bird its life. Experience doesn't have to come from owning other birds, most centres take on volenteers, why start with a harris when you want to fly a longwing, why not learn first then get your longwing, If harris's were not available, we might have less people deciding they want a bird then buying a harris a few weeks later. I have nothing againt harris's but dislike any bird being a "beginners" bird and do not like the idea of people buying them INTENDING to sell them on when they have more experience. I'm hoping to get a harris either this year or next, I was very envolved in training one at our centre but didn't like giving her back lol

[Hobby]

Surely one of The major limiting factors Is suitable land and quarry available,I always find it hard to believe that many of the falcons owned in this country[England] are being hunted.Likewise can everybody wanting to fly a Gos get his hands on readily available permission.