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BenBamber
22-03-2012, 09:48 PM
just wondering how many of you put wings on your lure, and if so are they off of the quarry you want to fly or do you believe it doesnt really matter what bird they are off? also what are your different techniques for giving the falcon the lures dropping it etc and if so are they weighted diffrently?
cheers
Ben

Flash
22-03-2012, 09:50 PM
I use wings attached to a leather lure pad for young birds then remove the wings once they are older I drop the lure on the floor mostly once they are comming in for it

David Bishop
22-03-2012, 09:51 PM
no wings on my lures, do you think a falcon really thinks its a bird ? never had any problems catching game. atb Dave

BenBamber
22-03-2012, 09:57 PM
thanks guys also would ou say it would make a difference say if you had crow wings on a gamehawks lure (not that i will be just wondering).
just trying to learn a bit more before i get mine hopefully.
Ben

TerryS
22-03-2012, 10:16 PM
Ben

No wings is best mate.

When you are very first taking the falcon from the lure let her eat all the food and leave her until she isn't interested in the pad - then you can pick up very easy with food and no fuss.

Wings on the lure can make her think that food is still there which makes it harder to pick her up - so resentment is caused because she thinks she's being robbed. Which will manifest itself later in a bird that's wanting to carry.

Use a dead lure later on in the training to get the bird into the quarry you eventually want to hunt. But after three weeks using no wings to confuse her.

She will be jumping off the lure to you by then, with beautiful manners and never fearful of a tussle for the winged lure.

Good luck with your first Longwing mate.

I am very new to them myself after a long time with Shortwings - They are great fun, and become just so tame that they are a pleasure to handle.

Regards

Terry

BenBamber
22-03-2012, 10:20 PM
Thanks mate will that into account. It will be my first pr bird after my imprinted gos so will be an experience. Would you suggest stepping up to food on the glove as that's what I did with my gos and he would grab the lure then when it was still fly up to my hand.
Ben

TerryS
22-03-2012, 10:48 PM
Thanks mate will that into account. It will be my first pr bird after my imprinted gos so will be an experience. Would you suggest stepping up to food on the glove as that's what I did with my gos and he would grab the lure then when it was still fly up to my hand.
Ben

Yes mate

Let her have 2/3 of her daily ration from the lure - then call her on to your hand for the last 1/3 of the complete feed up. Be careful to ensure that she don't feel robbed in any way. A parent reared falcon is much nicer than an imprint Gos on the lure. But the principle of the hawk not feeling robbed is exactly the same.

But I am a longwing novice myself - so its just view.

Good luck.

Terry

Tony James
22-03-2012, 11:05 PM
Yes mate

Let her have 2/3 of her daily ration from the lure - then call her on to your hand for the last 1/3 of the complete feed up. Be careful to ensure that she don't feel robbed in any way. A parent reared falcon is much nicer than an imprint Gos on the lure. But the principle of the hawk not feeling robbed is exactly the same.

But I am a longwing novice myself - so its just view.

Good luck.

Terry

You may be a longwing novice Terry, but that's good advice.
A falcon treated thus, and managed well, will return to her accustomed lure whether it's a winged lure, a dead gamebird, or a tennis ball.

Best wishes,

Tony.

TerryS
22-03-2012, 11:25 PM
You may be a longwing novice Terry, but that's good advice.
A falcon treated thus, and managed well, will return to her accustomed lure whether it's a winged lure, a dead gamebird, or a tennis ball.

Best wishes,

Tony.

Thank you

BenBamber
22-03-2012, 11:46 PM
Cheers mate I will defiantly make sure she don't feel robbed as ma gos got a bit touchy occasionally and used to foot occasionally but soon sorted that out by wearing a thick glove and that way it didn't hurt and he stopped. Even though I never took any food off him. Top class advice any more helpful little tips
Cheers
Ben

Fraser Hamilton
23-03-2012, 06:33 AM
for me normal leather pad with a small ammount of food on sometimes i throw it up and sometimes on ground but mainly throw it up fo rthe bird to catch and when i trade it off its for the rest of her food but i olso call my falcons into the fist game hawk or persuit

TomOlivia
23-03-2012, 10:18 AM
Hi Ben,

I use a pair of black socks rolled up and stitched so they don't unravel! Easy!!!

Last time I had a hawk up and didn't have a lure (it can happen to any of us!), I looked in the car for anything that might have been suitable. I had a black calculator so I threw it up and down she came....straight away!!!:lol:

It's the action of throwing something out and the previous rewards that do the trick...you'd be surprised what you can get away with in an emergency.....but it's very hard to put your hands on a set of wings when you need them:lol:

Regards, Michael.

Fraser Hamilton
23-03-2012, 10:23 AM
Hi Ben,

I use a pair of black socks rolled up and stitched so they don't unravel! Easy!!!

Last time I had a hawk up and didn't have a lure (it can happen to any of us!), I looked in the car for anything that might have been suitable. I had a black calculator so I threw it up and down she came....straight away!!!:lol:

It's the action of throwing something out and the previous rewards that do the trick...you'd be surprised what you can get away with in an emergency.....but it's very hard to put your hands on a set of wings when you need them:lol:

Regards, Michael.

this is one of the reasons recall to fist too


i rember when i was flying a 7/8 gyr saker i let her off for a play abbout and she went up to abbout 200ish i put my glove in my pokket and started to walk 6 pases later the falcon is stooping at the ground behind me wondering what the hell she is dooing and then she landed on the glove as it fell out my pokket she even ran/retreved it to me :supz::lol:

Tony James
23-03-2012, 11:16 AM
Hi Ben,

I use a pair of black socks rolled up and stitched so they don't unravel! Easy!!!

Last time I had a hawk up and didn't have a lure (it can happen to any of us!), I looked in the car for anything that might have been suitable. I had a black calculator so I threw it up and down she came....straight away!!!:lol:

It's the action of throwing something out and the previous rewards that do the trick...you'd be surprised what you can get away with in an emergency.....but it's very hard to put your hands on a set of wings when you need them:lol:

Regards, Michael.

Hi Mike,

it may be the action of throwing something out that does the trick, but gamehawks will become so habituated to returning to the lure (and being well rewarded for it) after an unsuccessful flight, that if I'm too slow to get a tangled lure out of my pocket, my falcons will land at my side wondering where it's gone.
It's the consistent use of the lure as a rewarding recall devise only that leads to the happy state of affairs you speak of.

Best wishes,

Tony.

TomOlivia
23-03-2012, 11:27 AM
Hi Mike,

it may be the action of throwing something out that does the trick, but gamehawks will become so habituated to returning to the lure (and being well rewarded for it) after an unsuccessful flight, that if I'm too slow to get a tangled lure out of my pocket, my falcons will land at my side wondering where it's gone.
It's the consistent use of the lure as a rewarding recall devise only that leads to the happy state of affairs you speak of.

Best wishes,

Tony.

Isn't it a b*gger when you're running into a flush and the lure (unbeknown to you) drops out of your bag and when the quarry rises and you look up....the hawk is on the deck wondering what you're doing:lol: Only happened to me once:lol: Regards, Michael.
I just remembered....once at Jeff's we had Ralph Watt's tiercel up in the heavens and as we rushed a big pond I threw a brick towards the pond but it slipped out of my hand and landed at the water's edge. I was horrified and somewhat embarrassed when the hawk came down in a vertical from about 800ft and alighted on the brick with several hundred ducks wheeling around in no danger at all:rolleyes: Shocker!!!!

SmallPeregrine
23-03-2012, 01:32 PM
just wondering how many of you put wings on your lure, and if so are they off of the quarry you want to fly or do you believe it doesnt really matter what bird they are off? also what are your different techniques for giving the falcon the lures dropping it etc and if so are they weighted diffrently?
cheers
Ben
Dead pheasant or Duck every time, no smelly socks or leather pads on lines for me, easy to maintain pop back in freezer:idea:
Best
Phil

B C
23-03-2012, 01:36 PM
Hi Mike

Got to be really careful with Perlins and the like too.
I've had mine chase the stone that I'm throwing into the hedge to dislodge woodies etc. He's that quick that sooner or later he's gonna catch it I'm sure. :lol:

Bernie

Tony James
23-03-2012, 03:19 PM
Dead pheasant or Duck every time, no smelly socks or leather pads on lines for me, easy to maintain pop back in freezer:idea:
Best
Phil

The downside being having a decomposing frozen corpse in your hawking bag every day, slowly accumulating dirt and germs.
In my opinion, the effort involved in training a hawk more thoroughly to return to an artificial lure has many advantages. What advantages do you believe a frozen pheasant has as a lure?

Tony.

Judd Casper
23-03-2012, 03:54 PM
just wondering how many of you put wings on your lure, and if so are they off of the quarry you want to fly or do you believe it doesnt really matter what bird they are off? also what are your different techniques for giving the falcon the lures dropping it etc and if so are they weighted diffrently?
cheers
BenI use a lure pad with wings on because I like to and its traditional,if you catch enough quarry drying out
more wings as replacements isn't a problem,and if for any reason I miss-place my lure I take off my glove and throw that out and that works pretty well also.The best place for dead game in my opinion is the oven.:lol:



ATB
Sam

TiercelMan
23-03-2012, 04:40 PM
I use a lure pad with wings on because I like to and its traditional,if you catch enough quarry drying out
more wings as replacements isn't a problem,and if for any reason I miss-place my lure I take off my glove and throw that out and that works pretty well also.The best place for dead game in my opinion is the oven.:lol:



ATB
Sam

Forgot my lure about 15 years ago and was out in the middle of a moor and put my hand in my bag and oops:oops: panic mode. Had a piece of binder twine fortunately and fashioned a lure out some rushes and she came down to it:lol:
Alistair

CloakDaggerTiercel
23-03-2012, 05:00 PM
The downside being having a decomposing frozen corpse in your hawking bag every day, slowly accumulating dirt and germs.
In my opinion, the effort involved in training a hawk more thoroughly to return to an artificial lure has many advantages. What advantages do you believe a frozen pheasant has as a lure?

Tony.


I think you mean 'defrosting' frozen corpse Tony. The freezing bit usually cancels out the decomposing bit :rolleyes:
There is also no better bacteria heaven than a nicely ornated leather lure!

I usually end up using dead lures. Duckhawking with lots of remounts sometimes means the falcon isn't ready to call it quits until they have caught something or are quite sure there is nothing left to catch!
Dead lures usually get them down when you need them down.
I drive through a major pheasant shoot on the way to work so if the falcon doesn't provide a lure, roadkill often does.

My compromise is to de-breast most kills (the only bit worth keeping on a duck anyway) and the rest gets used as a lure or frozen down for molt fodder. The act of throwing them out on the field tenderises them perfectly before the kitchwen magic begins.

The best and handiest artificial lure Ive seen is half a tennis ball, that Greg Butler trained Pacman with.
But I soon trained that out of him, and it was back to cadavers.

As in any ther element of falconry, whatever works for you is best.

Nick

SmallPeregrine
23-03-2012, 05:36 PM
I think you mean 'defrosting' frozen corpse Tony. The freezing bit usually cancels out the decomposing bit :rolleyes:
There is also no better bacteria heaven than a nicely ornated leather lure!

I usually end up using dead lures. Duckhawking with lots of remounts sometimes means the falcon isn't ready to call it quits until they have caught something or are quite sure there is nothing left to catch!
Dead lures usually get them down when you need them down.
I drive through a major pheasant shoot on the way to work so if the falcon doesn't provide a lure, roadkill often does.

My compromise is to de-breast most kills (the only bit worth keeping on a duck anyway) and the rest gets used as a lure or frozen down for molt fodder. The act of throwing them out on the field tenderises them perfectly before the kitchwen magic begins.

The best and handiest artificial lure Ive seen is half a tennis ball, that Greg Butler trained Pacman with.
But I soon trained that out of him, and it was back to cadavers.

As in any ther element of falconry, whatever works for you is best.

Nick
Come on Nick you should know better than to question the opinion of the Dalai Lama of Falconry;)

Hawkmaster
23-03-2012, 06:28 PM
Ok here we go!

Be polite respectful on this thread or we will ban ALL people involved!

Tony James
23-03-2012, 06:45 PM
I think you mean 'defrosting' frozen corpse Tony. The freezing bit usually cancels out the decomposing bit :rolleyes:
There is also no better bacteria heaven than a nicely ornated leather lure!

I usually end up using dead lures. Duckhawking with lots of remounts sometimes means the falcon isn't ready to call it quits until they have caught something or are quite sure there is nothing left to catch!
Dead lures usually get them down when you need them down.
I drive through a major pheasant shoot on the way to work so if the falcon doesn't provide a lure, roadkill often does.

My compromise is to de-breast most kills (the only bit worth keeping on a duck anyway) and the rest gets used as a lure or frozen down for molt fodder. The act of throwing them out on the field tenderises them perfectly before the kitchwen magic begins.

The best and handiest artificial lure Ive seen is half a tennis ball, that Greg Butler trained Pacman with.
But I soon trained that out of him, and it was back to cadavers.

As in any ther element of falconry, whatever works for you is best.

Nick

No, I did mean decomposing Nick, which surely goes hand in hand with defrosting (given a little time).

I would guess that many gamehawkers do as I do once their hawks are trained, i.e use an ungarnished lure. It's effective, clean, and doesn't have to rely on uncertainties.
Dead lures on the other hand, tend to become the only lure that works for falcons that have trained the falconer, much as live lures do in places where they are used.

It is of course a matter of choice, but someone has asked for advice and would no doubt like some information on which to base his choice.

Tony.

Come on Nick you should know better than to question the opinion of the Dalai Lama of Falconry;)

No need for that Phil. You do as you do, and I do as I do.

As I said, I believe there are advantages to using an artificial lure, and I wondered, given the conviction with which you advocate using frozen pheasants, why you use them.
What is it that makes it such an obvious choice for you?

Tony.

CloakDaggerTiercel
23-03-2012, 07:32 PM
No, I did mean decomposing Nick, which surely goes hand in hand with defrosting (given a little time).

I would guess that many gamehawkers do as I do once their hawks are trained, i.e use an ungarnished lure. It's effective, clean, and doesn't have to rely on uncertainties.
Dead lures on the other hand, tend to become the only lure that works for falcons that have trained the falconer, much as live lures do in places where they are used.

Tony.

.

My basic point Tony is that whatever works to get your falcon down is the best whether that is a leather lure, dead lure, tennis ball or coke bottle. No one is better than the other provided it has the desired result, especially in company.
I know a few falconers that use dead lures. It is the most common lure throughout history. Provided common sense is employed it's clean, effective and doesn't rely on uncertainties :lol:
I wouldn't feed a falcon anything I wouldn't feast on myself. As Steve Frank once said it is considered good form to use a dead grouse as a lure for a few days to prepare it for the table!

I disagree that dead lures are a last resort. I for one never use artificials as a first resort, as they are by definition an imitation of the real thing.
Dead lures in my experience bring an instant response, just like anything else. As Mr Jack once said they are the perfect lure.
Falcons that go on long runs of kills often forget what the imitation is but the dead lure tends to win out in these 'nice problem' situations.

Lastly it is nearly always the falcon doing the training, not the falconer, for better or worse. You train a dog. You try and mould a falcon to hunt with you.

If you want to call your falcon down to a brass belt buckle and it is effective then good on you. Its the least inter3esting part of the flight. Much better to never need a lure.

Its just my opinion based on the requirements for stylish and successful duck hawking here, but a falcon conditioned to turn tail after one stoop and return to the falconer for its lure bound meal is my idea of a falcon that truly has trained it's falconer in a detrimental sense but obviously in other low ground situations this routine is considered good form.

Horses for courses, but a dead lure has several pro's over other types.

Nick

Tony James
23-03-2012, 08:07 PM
Horses for courses, but a dead lure has several pro's over other types.

Nick

But the question remains,

what are they?

Tony.

CloakDaggerTiercel
23-03-2012, 08:21 PM
But the question remains,

what are they?

Tony.

God you know it's the close season and you're working the weekend when you get to spend friday night debating the merits of lures, but here goes in list form to get it over with quickly.

Increased quarry recognition in the early stages of an eyases life (useful for those nasty roosters or mallards)

Less clutter. No lure lines or sticks.

Cleaner. No foisty lures hanging round in your vest or bag. Less smell, less bacteria. Less 'decomposition'.

When your dead lure has done its job, either eat it (you or the falcon) or chuck it (the fox gets fed) and get a new one. If you are catching game the turnover is simple.

I use dead pigeons. They are readily available. Are a perfect size for a tiercel and are a great food source.
Once one is a few days old it gets fed to the hawk and a new one is removed from the freezer.
Peregrines fly great on pigeon and no it doesn't make them check.

I think that's enough for now.
I like artificial lures for merlins but for game hawks I can get by without them.

Nick

Tony James
23-03-2012, 08:45 PM
God you know it's the close season and you're working the weekend when you get to spend friday night debating the merits of lures, but here goes in list form to get it over with quickly.

Increased quarry recognition in the early stages of an eyases life (useful for those nasty roosters or mallards)

Less clutter. No lure lines or sticks.

Cleaner. No foisty lures hanging round in your vest or bag. Less smell, less bacteria. Less 'decomposition'.

When your dead lure has done its job, either eat it (you or the falcon) or chuck it (the fox gets fed) and get a new one. If you are catching game the turnover is simple.

I use dead pigeons. They are readily available. Are a perfect size for a tiercel and are a great food source.
Once one is a few days old it gets fed to the hawk and a new one is removed from the freezer.
Peregrines fly great on pigeon and no it doesn't make them check.

I think that's enough for now.
I like artificial lures for merlins but for game hawks I can get by without them.

Nick

It's interesting how we as falconers go about validating what is, as you say, our chosen route. We'll often do utterly opposing things (your list makes little sense to me), and yet, according to accounts, they each work well enough.
For example, I wouldn't dream of using a dead pigeon as a lure, for fear that it would encourage my falcon to consider pigeons a valid quarry (maybe in my situation it would), and to consider a lure line or stick 'clutter' is alien to me.
I also much prefer to use a dry leather lure, rather than a decaying body of a bird (particularly if I'm flying in the company of landowners or guests, for obvious reasons).

Anyhow, I guess that's enough contrasting advice for now, and our friend can be left to digest it now and make his own choice.

Tony.

PS What else can you do on a friday night?:lol:

CloakDaggerTiercel
23-03-2012, 08:56 PM
For example, I wouldn't dream of using a dead pigeon as a lure, for fear that it would encourage my falcon to consider pigeons a valid quarry (maybe in my situation it would),
Tony.


Tony,

Whatever the other pro's and cons of dead lures I can say with certainty that using dead pigeons as lures has no bearing on whether your falcon will check.
I mostly fly in a lowland setting like most other people with lots of woodpigeons (actual numbers are irrelevant as it only takes one to tempt a falcon) as well as all manner of other wintering birds on the flying ground.
Ive always used dead pigeons as lures and food and have never had a checky hawk or many issues with check beyond the usual eyas feeling its boundaries
I think checking is more a consequence of not serving or not serving in a timely manner on game or duck, rather than the inanimate object you throw out to end a flight.

Give that falcon some proper food!

Nick

HarrisHawkingNovice
23-03-2012, 08:57 PM
It's interesting how we as falconers go about validating what is, as you say, our chosen route. We'll often do utterly opposing things (your list makes little sense to me), and yet, according to accounts, they each work well enough.
For example, I wouldn't dream of using a dead pigeon as a lure, for fear that it would encourage my falcon to consider pigeons a valid quarry (maybe in my situation it would), and to consider a lure line or stick 'clutter' is alien to me.
I also much prefer to use a dry leather lure, rather than a decaying body of a bird (particularly if I'm flying in the company of landowners or guests, for obvious reasons).

Anyhow, I guess that's enough contrasting advice for now, and our friend can be left to digest it now and make his own choice.

Tony.


PS What else can you do on a friday night?:lol:

Sit back and watch the super league :D

Leather lure pad for me, no wings. Easily and neatly stored, easy to keep clean

Tony James
23-03-2012, 09:01 PM
Tony,

Whatever the other pro's and cons of dead lures I can say with certainty that using dead pigeons as lures has no bearing on whether your falcon will check.
I mostly fly in a lowland setting like most other people with lots of woodpigeons (actual numbers are irrelevant as it only takes one to tempt a falcon) as well as all manner of other wintering birds on the flying ground.
Ive always used dead pigeons as lures and food and have never had a checky hawk or many issues with check beyond the usual eyas feeling its boundaries
I think checking is more a consequence of not serving or not serving in a timely manner on game or duck, rather than the inanimate object you throw out to end a flight.

Give that falcon some proper food!

Nick

And yet you claim the use of a pheasant lure helps with quarry recognition?
Surely you can't have it both ways?

Tony.

Sit back and watch the super league :D

Leather lure pad for me, no wings. Easily and neatly stored, easy to keep clean

Hi Ben,

the super league? Did you film the falcon races when you were there?:lol:

Best wishes,

Tony.

HarrisHawkingNovice
23-03-2012, 09:18 PM
Super league is rugby league. Fantastic game on right now. :supz:
You've lost me Tony :oops:

CloakDaggerTiercel
23-03-2012, 09:22 PM
And yet you claim the use of a pheasant lure helps with quarry recognition?
Surely you can't have it both ways?

Tony.

.

That is a fair point and the quarry recognition thing is maybe more paraphrased pro from friends who fly pheasants. It can't hurt.
I rarely fly pheasants so I'm prepared to give you the recognition factor back as I don't need it both ways!

Ive found that peregrines naturally chase ducks if given a chance during the fledgling window without the need for dead lures.

Your not offering up much of an argument for why I should give up a perfectly serviceable dead lure for a leather purse with string attached?

Winding up errant falcons?
C'mon there must be something?
Is it just an excuse to squeeze out DOC's in your wife's kitchen sink you disciple you :lol:

Nick

Tony James
23-03-2012, 09:27 PM
Super league is rugby league. Fantastic game on right now. :supz:
You've lost me Tony :oops:

Sorry Ben, my mistake, I thought you were another Ben (who was out in Abu Dhabi at the falcon races).

Tony.

HarrisHawkingNovice
23-03-2012, 09:28 PM
Unfortunately not Tony! Be interested to see the ukfc try replicate it

Tony James
23-03-2012, 09:34 PM
Unfortunately not Tony! Be interested to see the ukfc try replicate it

They'd better start shovelling the sand now!

Incidentally, I think the lure they were using had a couple of pairs of houbara wings attached.

Best wishes,

Tony.

HarrisHawkingNovice
23-03-2012, 09:39 PM
They'd better start shovelling the sand now!

Incidentally, I think the lure they were using had a couple of pairs of houbara wings attached.

Best wishes,

Tony.

I don't think think the sand will be required unless we are forcing thR falcons to walk it :lol:

Tony James
23-03-2012, 09:46 PM
That is a fair point and the quarry recognition thing is maybe more paraphrased pro from friends who fly pheasants. It can't hurt.
I rarely fly pheasants so I'm prepared to give you the recognition factor back as I don't need it both ways!

Ive found that peregrines naturally chase ducks if given a chance during the fledgling window without the need for dead lures.

Your not offering up much of an argument for why I should give up a perfectly serviceable dead lure for a leather purse with string attached?

Winding up errant falcons?
C'mon there must be something?
Is it just an excuse to squeeze out DOC's in your wife's kitchen sink you disciple you :lol:

Nick

Nick, it's not my intention to convince you to do that. As you say, it's perfectly serviceable in your circumstances, and works to your satisfaction, so why would you change?
However, I prefer not to rely on throwing out a carcass (although I will do it on occasion during the season), and certainly would rather not lob gamebird carcasses about in front of non-falconers --- apart from which, I only took 41 head of game last season, which might not have provided enough fresh lures for a season that spanned 5 full months.

Tony.

SmallPeregrine
23-03-2012, 11:05 PM
My basic point Tony is that whatever works to get your falcon down is the best whether that is a leather lure, dead lure, tennis ball or coke bottle. No one is better than the other provided it has the desired result, especially in company.
I know a few falconers that use dead lures. It is the most common lure throughout history. Provided common sense is employed it's clean, effective and doesn't rely on uncertainties :lol:
I wouldn't feed a falcon anything I wouldn't feast on myself. As Steve Frank once said it is considered good form to use a dead grouse as a lure for a few days to prepare it for the table!

I disagree that dead lures are a last resort. I for one never use artificials as a first resort, as they are by definition an imitation of the real thing.
Dead lures in my experience bring an instant response, just like anything else. As Mr Jack once said they are the perfect lure.
Falcons that go on long runs of kills often forget what the imitation is but the dead lure tends to win out in these 'nice problem' situations.

Lastly it is nearly always the falcon doing the training, not the falconer, for better or worse. You train a dog. You try and mould a falcon to hunt with you.

If you want to call your falcon down to a brass belt buckle and it is effective then good on you. Its the least inter3esting part of the flight. Much better to never need a lure.

Its just my opinion based on the requirements for stylish and successful duck hawking here, but a falcon conditioned to turn tail after one stoop and return to the falconer for its lure bound meal is my idea of a falcon that truly has trained it's falconer in a detrimental sense but obviously in other low ground situations this routine is considered good form.

Horses for courses, but a dead lure has several pro's over other types.

Nick

God you know it's the close season and you're working the weekend when you get to spend friday night debating the merits of lures, but here goes in list form to get it over with quickly.

Increased quarry recognition in the early stages of an eyases life (useful for those nasty roosters or mallards)

Less clutter. No lure lines or sticks.

Cleaner. No foisty lures hanging round in your vest or bag. Less smell, less bacteria. Less 'decomposition'.

When your dead lure has done its job, either eat it (you or the falcon) or chuck it (the fox gets fed) and get a new one. If you are catching game the turnover is simple.

I use dead pigeons. They are readily available. Are a perfect size for a tiercel and are a great food source.
Once one is a few days old it gets fed to the hawk and a new one is removed from the freezer.
Peregrines fly great on pigeon and no it doesn't make them check.

I think that's enough for now.
I like artificial lures for merlins but for game hawks I can get by without them.

Nick

Tony,

Whatever the other pro's and cons of dead lures I can say with certainty that using dead pigeons as lures has no bearing on whether your falcon will check.
I mostly fly in a lowland setting like most other people with lots of woodpigeons (actual numbers are irrelevant as it only takes one to tempt a falcon) as well as all manner of other wintering birds on the flying ground.
Ive always used dead pigeons as lures and food and have never had a checky hawk or many issues with check beyond the usual eyas feeling its boundaries
I think checking is more a consequence of not serving or not serving in a timely manner on game or duck, rather than the inanimate object you throw out to end a flight.

Give that falcon some proper food!

Nick

That is a fair point and the quarry recognition thing is maybe more paraphrased pro from friends who fly pheasants. It can't hurt.
I rarely fly pheasants so I'm prepared to give you the recognition factor back as I don't need it both ways!

Ive found that peregrines naturally chase ducks if given a chance during the fledgling window without the need for dead lures.

Your not offering up much of an argument for why I should give up a perfectly serviceable dead lure for a leather purse with string attached?

Winding up errant falcons?
C'mon there must be something?
Is it just an excuse to squeeze out DOC's in your wife's kitchen sink you disciple you :lol:

Nick
Bump, bump, bump:-D
Best in sport Nick
Phil

SmallPeregrine
23-03-2012, 11:32 PM
--- apart from which, I only took 41 head of game last season, which might not have provided enough fresh lures for a season that spanned 5 full months.

Tony.
Interesting to see the flights ratio leather lure, compared with Natural lure flights ratio:idea::-D

CloakDaggerTiercel
24-03-2012, 07:08 AM
Nick, it's not my intention to convince you to do that. As you say, it's perfectly serviceable in your circumstances, and works to your satisfaction, so why would you change?
However, I prefer not to rely on throwing out a carcass (although I will do it on occasion during the season), and certainly would rather not lob gamebird carcasses about in front of non-falconers --- apart from which, I only took 41 head of game last season, which might not have provided enough fresh lures for a season that spanned 5 full months.

Tony.


Neither is it my intention to convince you or anyone else that dead lures or the best or only way, just that they hold certain advantages and shouldn't be viewed with the common stigma of the 'last resort' in getting as naughty peregrine out of the sky.

Falconry is a hunting sport and falcons getting called back to a dead lure or a leather pad with decorated with somethings wings, shouldn't be viewed with horror, or else you might question why these people chose to watch a days hunting where the intention is to kill something?

Respect for the game should when dead should be at the top of any falconers list and stashing game away over a season or eating them is fine but you can still use dead birds if you wanted to (Im not saying you want to). Game birds are cheap as chips straight off the shoot. Chicken poults are another option.

Pigeons fill the niche superbly for me and provide a great food source at the same time.

Nick

TomOlivia
24-03-2012, 11:57 AM
Interesting and (mostly) civilised debate!
I've only flown about 7 gamehawks that I actually took much quarry with and I always start with the best intentions of using a lure (not dead bird). However, it's been my observation that the better they get at killing, and especially if they are served nearly every flight, the worse they get at returning to a lure so I find myself chucking yesterdays kill out and they return instantly. Then of course the rod is made and it's always a dead lure after that.
With hawks that are 'spoiled' in this way, I've found that they can be impossible to get down to a lure if no serve is forthcoming but they will sometimes return after an unsuccessful flight (after a good serve) if the lure is thrown out before they've remounted.
It makes sense to me anyway:lol:
Regards, Michael.

Anyone noticed that you can't edit your posts any more....be careful now:lol:

TomOlivia
24-03-2012, 12:35 PM
Hi Mike

Got to be really careful with Perlins and the like too.
I've had mine chase the stone that I'm throwing into the hedge to dislodge woodies etc. He's that quick that sooner or later he's gonna catch it I'm sure. :lol:

Bernie

Hi Bernie,

Being the terrible poacher that I am and always sneaking onto 'reserves' and golf courses....you wont be surprised to learn that my imprint female Peregrine of about 15 or more years ago came down to a golf ball that landed on the 9th green just as I was about to jump into the nearby pond:rolleyes: What a shot though:lol:

Best Regards, Michael.

PS. This same falcon is pictured on Gary Wall's website holding a miniature football (pic taken before I started hunting flights with her)....I trained her pretty well eh:lol:

Fraser Hamilton
24-03-2012, 02:10 PM
Hi Bernie,

Being the terrible poacher that I am and always sneaking onto 'reserves' and golf courses....you wont be surprised to learn that my imprint female Peregrine of about 15 or more years ago came down to a golf ball that landed on the 9th green just as I was about to jump into the nearby pond:rolleyes: What a shot though:lol:

Best Regards, Michael.

PS. This same falcon is pictured on Gary Wall's website holding a miniature football (pic taken before I started hunting flights with her)....I trained her pretty well eh:lol:

If you ask me it sounds like you ballsed her up bom bom :lol:

Tony James
24-03-2012, 02:46 PM
Interesting and (mostly) civilised debate!
I've only flown about 7 gamehawks that I actually took much quarry with and I always start with the best intentions of using a lure (not dead bird). However, it's been my observation that the better they get at killing, and especially if they are served nearly every flight, the worse they get at returning to a lure so I find myself chucking yesterdays kill out and they return instantly. Then of course the rod is made and it's always a dead lure after that.
With hawks that are 'spoiled' in this way, I've found that they can be impossible to get down to a lure if no serve is forthcoming but they will sometimes return after an unsuccessful flight (after a good serve) if the lure is thrown out before they've remounted.
It makes sense to me anyway:lol:
Regards, Michael.

Anyone noticed that you can't edit your posts any more....be careful now:lol:

Out of interest Mike, once your falcons are flying at quarry, do they have any reason to continue to associate the lure with all things good? Does the lure have over-ridingly positive connotations?

Falcons that are taken up from quarry directly to the fist seem often to follow the pattern you describe, and I've had the same experiences.
But, having followed good advice this past twenty years, and transferred from the kill to the lure, where the falcon will consume the best part of the day's rations, I've noticed a huge difference.

Regards,

Tony.

David Bishop
24-03-2012, 04:24 PM
Out of interest Mike, once your falcons are flying at quarry, do they have any reason to continue to associate the lure with all things good? Does the lure have over-ridingly positive connotations?

Falcons that are taken up from quarry directly to the fist seem often to follow the pattern you describe, and I've had the same experiences.
But, having followed good advice this past twenty years, and transferred from the kill to the lure, where the falcon will consume the best part of the day's rations, I've noticed a huge difference.

Regards,

Tony.im with you on this Tony, i always swap quarry for the lure.

CloakDaggerTiercel
24-03-2012, 05:00 PM
Do you not think you are depriving the falcon of the ultimate reward of plucking and eating warm game instead of cold chicks or other food from the lure.
Im not sure I understand this dedication to feeding on the lure even when the falcon has made a kill?
It seems overkill just to reinforce the lure response?

My system is based on the kill being everything to the falcon and any other scenario including getting called back to a dead carcase, is rewarded with smaller feeds and any other rations are given later on in the mews to try as much as possible to disassociate failure and reward.

But whatever works. But it seems a shame to not let a falcon take pleasure on her kill but then the accipiter boys often do this, with great success....

Nick

SmallPeregrine
24-03-2012, 05:04 PM
Correct transition from the lure to the fist in the early part of her intial training artificial lures are not nescessary when picking her up from kills in the field:idea:
Regards
Phil

Little Joe
24-03-2012, 05:19 PM
In my limited experience its all about conditioning. I've used inner tube cut into strips, the tassles of gloves, even a glove on string to catch a stray Arab falcon.

Now I have reverted back to usind a pair of quail legs and wings.

I believe if you train your bird correctly, you can eventually use an old shoe as a lure. But as Tony said, in the beginning a falcon should eat well from the lure untill it stamps it feet for more. Trading a falcon smoothly is no great science, its an art.

Rgds,
Jannes

Another point, I think the term "making in" is a bad one. You don't sneak up to a bird. It triggers a fear response.

Just march in relaxed and casually and pick it up! Its not something learned from books and forums. It has to be seen.

Rgds,
Jannes

Greg
24-03-2012, 07:16 PM
Once trained and hunting I always use an ungarnished lure with a pair of wings! On occasions I have use the same lure without the wing and seen little difference! In the later part of this season my bird was attacked on the kill several times and often looked like he was going to carry! However if I threw the ungarnished lure to the side he would leave the kill immediately and jump onto the lure then jump up to the fist! Once trained I really see no reason to use a garnished lure with my crow hawks so I can't see that other falcons would be any different! The tennis ball lure that Nick mentioned earlier is great for slightly smaller falcons! The ball is cut in half then the lure line is passed through the top of the half ball and a slip knot tied in the end! A wing complete with some meat is then placed in the loop and the line pulled tight drawing it into the tennis ball! The falcon has to get hold og the lure and find the reward inside the tennis ball! As I said before once flying well the reward can be dispensed with and you can just use a dried wing! Its a light lure that can easily be kept on a pocket and when it get too dirty you can drop it in the washing machine! All that said no matter what method you use as long as it works there is no real problem! I'm not quite clear about the use of a frozen carcass, if allowed to thaw out it would have a very limited life and if used while still frozen I would worry about a falcon sticking it hard and damaging a hind talon or worse!

Little Joe
24-03-2012, 07:28 PM
Ok here we go!

Be polite respectful on this thread or we will ban ALL people involved!

You still alive? Go suck a teabag! Haaha

Good to see you boet! :-)

SmallPeregrine
24-03-2012, 08:00 PM
God you know it's the close season and you're working the weekend when you get to spend friday night debating the merits of lures, but here goes in list form to get it over with quickly.

Increased quarry recognition in the early stages of an eyases life (useful for those nasty roosters or mallards)

Less clutter. No lure lines or sticks.

Cleaner. No foisty lures hanging round in your vest or bag. Less smell, less bacteria. Less 'decomposition'.

When your dead lure has done its job, either eat it (you or the falcon) or chuck it (the fox gets fed) and get a new one. If you are catching game the turnover is simple.

I use dead pigeons. They are readily available. Are a perfect size for a tiercel and are a great food source.
Once one is a few days old it gets fed to the hawk and a new one is removed from the freezer.
Peregrines fly great on pigeon and no it doesn't make them check.

I think that's enough for now.
I like artificial lures for merlins but for game hawks I can get by without them.

Nick

Tony,

Whatever the other pro's and cons of dead lures I can say with certainty that using dead pigeons as lures has no bearing on whether your falcon will check.
I mostly fly in a lowland setting like most other people with lots of woodpigeons (actual numbers are irrelevant as it only takes one to tempt a falcon) as well as all manner of other wintering birds on the flying ground.
Ive always used dead pigeons as lures and food and have never had a checky hawk or many issues with check beyond the usual eyas feeling its boundaries
I think checking is more a consequence of not serving or not serving in a timely manner on game or duck, rather than the inanimate object you throw out to end a flight.

Give that falcon some proper food!

Nick

Neither is it my intention to convince you or anyone else that dead lures or the best or only way, just that they hold certain advantages and shouldn't be viewed with the common stigma of the 'last resort' in getting as naughty peregrine out of the sky.

Falconry is a hunting sport and falcons getting called back to a dead lure or a leather pad with decorated with somethings wings, shouldn't be viewed with horror, or else you might question why these people chose to watch a days hunting where the intention is to kill something?

Respect for the game should when dead should be at the top of any falconers list and stashing game away over a season or eating them is fine but you can still use dead birds if you wanted to (Im not saying you want to). Game birds are cheap as chips straight off the shoot. Chicken poults are another option.

Pigeons fill the niche superbly for me and provide a great food source at the same time.

Nick

Once trained and hunting I always use an ungarnished lure with a pair of wings! On occasions I have use the same lure without the wing and seen little difference! In the later part of this season my bird was attacked on the kill several times and often looked like he was going to carry! However if I threw the ungarnished lure to the side he would leave the kill immediately and jump onto the lure then jump up to the fist! Once trained I really see no reason to use a garnished lure with my crow hawks so I can't see that other falcons would be any different! The tennis ball lure that Nick mentioned earlier is great for slightly smaller falcons! The ball is cut in half then the lure line is passed through the top of the half ball and a slip knot tied in the end! A wing complete with some meat is then placed in the loop and the line pulled tight drawing it into the tennis ball! The falcon has to get hold og the lure and find the reward inside the tennis ball! As I said before once flying well the reward can be dispensed with and you can just use a dried wing! Its a light lure that can easily be kept on a pocket and when it get too dirty you can drop it in the washing machine! All that said no matter what method you use as long as it works there is no real problem! I'm not quite clear about the use of a frozen carcass, if allowed to thaw out it would have a very limited life and if used while still frozen I would worry about a falcon sticking it hard and damaging a hind talon or worse!
I think Nicks posts cover all the bases:idea:;)

BenBamber
24-03-2012, 08:47 PM
well guys i can certainly say this has opened my eyes to the many different methods there are out there. i am still considering the matter and am taking into account everything that has been said.
thank you all
Ben

Brian Sullivan
24-03-2012, 08:47 PM
I wish I had a buck for every Falconer that has used my leather lure to call their Falcon down that only use a dead bird for call back, as many time they do not want to kill their prize pigeon, loss or do not want to use their stinking bird, or just forgot it as it is kept in the freezer. :lol:

I do put a fresh pair of usually Duck wings on my lure more often in the early and late part of the season when the weather is warm, but less so when it is below freezing in the day. It stays in my vest in the back of my truck in out door temps and is ready to use at any moments notice!

My Falcons come to the leather lure instantly as any dead bird I could possibly toss them, as they have been reward well.

Greg
24-03-2012, 08:50 PM
Dead pheasant or Duck every time, no smelly socks or leather pads on lines for me, easy to maintain pop back in freezer:idea:
Best
Phil

Nick's post to cover most of the points about using quarry as a lure it was your post about popping it back in the freezer that I was unclear about! I could see no reason for this! As Nick says use it for a couple of days then get rid in one way or another! This method will work in the UK but is hatter climates would be of little use! A fresh lure would be needed daily! I have been out with falconers who use a dead bird all the time and their falcons refuse to come to an artificial lure! I have never been out with a falconer who uses an artificial lure most of the time who's bird refuses to come to a dead bird! I've also been out when its very wet and a natural lure thrown out several times has become a bit of a mess, I would rather use an artificial lure the give the falcon nice clean fresh food! Still as I said the bottom line is as long as it works for you then what the hell it doesn't really matter!

Tony James
24-03-2012, 09:23 PM
Nick's post to cover most of the points about using quarry as a lure it was your post about popping it back in the freezer that I was unclear about! I could see no reason for this! As Nick says use it for a couple of days then get rid in one way or another! This method will work in the UK but is hatter climates would be of little use! A fresh lure would be needed daily! I have been out with falconers who use a dead bird all the time and their falcons refuse to come to an artificial lure! I have never been out with a falconer who uses an artificial lure most of the time who's bird refuses to come to a dead bird! I've also been out when its very wet and a natural lure thrown out several times has become a bit of a mess, I would rather use an artificial lure the give the falcon nice clean fresh food! Still as I said the bottom line is as long as it works for you then what the hell it doesn't really matter!

I had the same confusion Greg.
It's clear that Phil has an ample supply of frozen lures, but the notion of using one whilst still frozen seems a little hazardous.
That said, it may just be that we simply misunderstood the words, as I'm sure I've read before that although they end up in the freezer, when Phil throws them out initially, they're definitely not frozen.

Greg
24-03-2012, 09:43 PM
I had the same confusion Greg.
It's clear that Phil has an ample supply of frozen lures, but the notion of using one whilst still frozen seems a little hazardous.
That said, it may just be that we simply misunderstood the words, as I'm sure I've read before that although they end up in the freezer, when Phil throws them out initially, they're definitely not frozen.


Tony, someone mentioned a very strange sort of lure the other day which I didn't quite understand, they were called Trafalgars or something like that! As I said what ever works for you as long as its legal!

CloudBase1664
24-03-2012, 10:00 PM
As I said what ever works for you as long as its legal!

Greg '
To misquote Robert Zimmerman "Anything's legal. As long as you don't get caught":D

Dave

SmallPeregrine
24-03-2012, 10:36 PM
Nick's post to cover most of the points about using quarry as a lure it was your post about popping it back in the freezer that I was unclear about! I could see no reason for this! As Nick says use it for a couple of days then get rid in one way or another! This method will work in the UK but is hatter climates would be of little use! A fresh lure would be needed daily! I have been out with falconers who use a dead bird all the time and their falcons refuse to come to an artificial lure! I have never been out with a falconer who uses an artificial lure most of the time who's bird refuses to come to a dead bird! I've also been out when its very wet and a natural lure thrown out several times has become a bit of a mess, I would rather use an artificial lure the give the falcon nice clean fresh food! Still as I said the bottom line is as long as it works for you then what the hell it doesn't really matter!

I had the same confusion Greg.
It's clear that Phil has an ample supply of frozen lures, but the notion of using one whilst still frozen seems a little hazardous.
That said, it may just be that we simply misunderstood the words, as I'm sure I've read before that although they end up in the freezer, when Phil throws them out initially, they're definitely not frozen.

Tony, someone mention to very strange sort of lure the other day which I didn't quite understand, they were called Trafalgars or something like that! As I said what ever works for you as long as its legal!

[QU! As I said what ever works for you as long as its legal!

Greg '
To misquote Robert Zimmerman "Anything's legal. As long as you don't get caught":D

Dave
Oh Dear I have created reaction again on my personal opinion based on experience flying my Falcons in the field:roll:
Frustratingly in sport
Phil
Where did I mention Trafalgars and what do you mean Greg???????????????:roll:

Tony James
24-03-2012, 10:42 PM
Greg '
To misquote Robert Zimmerman "Anything's legal. As long as you don't get caught":D

Dave
Oh Dear I have created reaction again on my personal opinion based on experience flying my Falcons in the field:roll:
Frustratingly in sport
Phil
Where did I mention Trafalgars and what do you mean Greg???????????????:roll:

Phil,

to avoid confusion, are you using frozen gamebirds or not?

I know someone who did just that for a number of years, until one day he was rushing to get a flight before the light drew in, and in his haste he grabbed the wrong lure from the freezer.
Sadly his flight didn't go to plan, and things got worse as his falcon refused to come down to a carton of Ben & Gerry's Chunky Monkey:lol:

Just askin'

Greg
24-03-2012, 11:03 PM
Greg '
To misquote Robert Zimmerman "Anything's legal. As long as you don't get caught":D

Dave
Oh Dear I have created reaction again on my personal opinion based on experience flying my Falcons in the field:roll:
Frustratingly in sport
Phil
Where did I mention Trafalgars and what do you mean Greg???????????????:roll:

Interesting to hear your take on life telling lies and murder! lol!
Only reaction you got from me was that I was a little confused as to why you pop them back in the freezer and do you use them frozen or as Nick describes in his post!
As to where did you mention Trafalgars, I never said you did! As to what I mean I think that was clear in the post!

TomOlivia
24-03-2012, 11:03 PM
Out of interest Mike, once your falcons are flying at quarry, do they have any reason to continue to associate the lure with all things good? Does the lure have over-ridingly positive connotations?

Falcons that are taken up from quarry directly to the fist seem often to follow the pattern you describe, and I've had the same experiences.
But, having followed good advice this past twenty years, and transferred from the kill to the lure, where the falcon will consume the best part of the day's rations, I've noticed a huge difference.

Regards,

Tony.

Tony and Dave,

That makes sense as well. I suppose I'm just lazy...I could easily transfer the falcon from a kill to a well garnished lure but too much of a palarver for an idle sod like me:lol:
It's just my habit to let the hawk feed up on the kill then pick them up directly to the fist. With hawks that are killing most flights, (which is always my intention...I don't like the old "I'm not too bothered about kills, it's style that I'm after....Get the kills I say...style will come quickly after!), they may not need to see a lure for long periods of time so of course they'll become 'poor' to it.

It's a trade off....do I spend time every day garnishing a lure then cleaning it etc etc when I'm hoping that I don't need it (and when yesterdays kill will suffice perfectly anyway) or just chuck a dead one out? I take the lazy option and it works well enough for me.

Brian's way sounds just about perfect to me 'cos his lure obviously imitates a dead duck a bit better than other lures...I should oven dry a few sets of wings!

Fraser....dead funny, I like it:lol:

Dave...nice Gyr on the other thread!

Ben....At least you have plenty of good input to choose from...whatever works is always best.

Best Regards, one and all, Michael. (keep it clean boys:lol:)

Greg
24-03-2012, 11:10 PM
Out of interest Mike, once your falcons are flying at quarry, do they have any reason to continue to associate the lure with all things good? Does the lure have over-ridingly positive connotations?

Falcons that are taken up from quarry directly to the fist seem often to follow the pattern you describe, and I've had the same experiences.
But, having followed good advice this past twenty years, and transferred from the kill to the lure, where the falcon will consume the best part of the day's rations, I've noticed a huge difference.

Regards,

Tony.

As I said in one of my earlier posts my bird will jump off a kill to an ungarnished lure and then jump to the fist because he knows he will get a good reward!

SmallPeregrine
24-03-2012, 11:58 PM
Oh Dear I have created reaction again on my personal opinion based on experience flying my Falcons in the field:roll:
Frustratingly in sport
Phil
Where did I mention Trafalgars and what do you mean Greg???????????????:roll:

Interesting to hear your take on life telling lies and murder! lol!
Only reaction you got from me was that I was a little confused as to why you pop them back in the freezer and do you use them frozen or as Nick describes in his post!
As to where did you mention Trafalgars, I never said you did! As to what I mean I think that was clear in the post!
Explain where I have told lies:-D

Greg
25-03-2012, 12:06 AM
Interesting to hear your take on life telling lies and murder! lol!
Only reaction you got from me was that I was a little confused as to why you pop them back in the freezer and do you use them frozen or as Nick describes in his post!
As to where did you mention Trafalgars, I never said you did! As to what I mean I think that was clear in the post!
Explain where I have told lies:-D

Sorry Phil this fish isn't going to bite! Please stop trying to put words into my mouth I have accused you of nothing! I will now report both of these posts where you are saying that I have said things that I have not!

Tony James
25-03-2012, 12:55 AM
Tony and Dave,

That makes sense as well. I suppose I'm just lazy...I could easily transfer the falcon from a kill to a well garnished lure but too much of a palarver for an idle sod like me:lol:
It's just my habit to let the hawk feed up on the kill then pick them up directly to the fist. With hawks that are killing most flights, (which is always my intention...I don't like the old "I'm not too bothered about kills, it's style that I'm after....Get the kills I say...style will come quickly after!), they may not need to see a lure for long periods of time so of course they'll become 'poor' to it.

It's a trade off....do I spend time every day garnishing a lure then cleaning it etc etc when I'm hoping that I don't need it (and when yesterdays kill will suffice perfectly anyway) or just chuck a dead one out? I take the lazy option and it works well enough for me.

Brian's way sounds just about perfect to me 'cos his lure obviously imitates a dead duck a bit better than other lures...I should oven dry a few sets of wings!

Fraser....dead funny, I like it:lol:

Dave...nice Gyr on the other thread!

Ben....At least you have plenty of good input to choose from...whatever works is always best.

Best Regards, one and all, Michael. (keep it clean boys:lol:)

Hi Mike,

it's a shame to see good advice recognised yet instantly dismissed, but I guess we're all guilty of that at times.
It isn't really a trade off at all Mike. You really can have a hawk that's thoroughly committed to its flight at quarry, and yet be instantly responsive to the lure in the unlikely event that you require it to be.
When a hawk goes on a long run of success, transferring from the kill to the lure (and you use your skill to decide at what point, and for what reward that happens) retains an appreciation for the lure that is lost when transferring directly to the fist.
Yes, it involves a few moments extra consideration, but Mike, please:yawinkle:.

Regards,

Tony.

Brian Sullivan
25-03-2012, 02:02 AM
The new 21st century Lure. "Luresicle". :lol:

Fraser Hamilton
25-03-2012, 04:26 AM
Phil never knew you had to call your falcons in thaught they were good and killed on evry flight unless is an ingured duck and camcorders abbout :lol:

CloakDaggerTiercel
25-03-2012, 08:00 AM
Hi Mike,

it's a shame to see good advice recognised yet instantly dismissed, but I guess we're all guilty of that at times.
It isn't really a trade off at all Mike. You really can have a hawk that's thoroughly committed to its flight at quarry, and yet be instantly responsive to the lure in the unlikely event that you require it to be.
When a hawk goes on a long run of success, transferring from the kill to the lure (and you use your skill to decide at what point, and for what reward that happens) retains an appreciation for the lure that is lost when transferring directly to the fist.
Yes, it involves a few moments extra consideration, but Mike, please:yawinkle:.

Regards,

Tony.

We are all guilty at times of ignoring the merits of other systems.
That's one way to do it Tony and if you are determined to use an artificial lure then it's probably a sound way to enure some kind of response in the event of a miss, which with the better game hawks are sometimes few.
Yet sometimes the traditional ways are worthy of just as much merit and at least as much consideration.
Generally Ive found that you don't need to worry about lure response to a dead bait. Neither do you need to reinforce its use by transferring off a kill.
Mike may call this lazy, I'm not so sure it isn't shrewd. It takes more work to ensure a good supply of dead lures.
I like to transfer off a kill to the fist to fresh pigeon. With duck kills this helps as duck fat can knock them out of condition for a few days whereas I like to think that lean pigeon is still a nice tasty reward but I can still fly the falcon the next day.
Picking up quickly to the fist also helps transferring them off a dead lure after a poor effort when you don't want them to get much of a reward.

It works well with less convolution, for me anyway.

Nick

Tony James
25-03-2012, 08:07 AM
We are all guilty at times of ignoring the merits of other systems.
That's one way to do it Tony and if you are determined to use an artificial lure then it's probably a sound way to enure some kind of response in the event of a miss, which with the better game hawks are sometimes few.
Yet sometimes the traditional ways are worthy of just as much merit and at least as much consideration.
Generally Ive found that you don't need to worry about lure response to a dead bait. Neither do you need to reinforce its use by transferring off a kill.
Mike may call this lazy, I'm not so sure it isn't shrewd. It takes more work to ensure a good supply of dead lures.
I like to transfer off a kill to the fist to fresh pigeon. With duck kills this helps as duck fat can knock them out of condition for a few days whereas I like to think that lean pigeon is still a nice tasty reward but I can still fly the falcon the next day.
Picking up quickly to the fist also helps transferring them off a dead lure after a poor effort when you don't want them to get much of a reward.

It works well with less convolution, for me anyway.

Nick

Stop with the insecurity Nick. You know best.

PS 'Traditionally' artificial lures were the order of the day.

CloakDaggerTiercel
25-03-2012, 08:23 AM
Stop with the insecurity Nick. You know best.

PS 'Traditionally' artificial lures were the order of the day.


I think you'll find that dead lures came first, but hey who cares.
I don't know best but I know a working system that has few flaws so as with yourself why change?
Ive heard nothing about artificial lures that would in any way make me consider their use, unless I felt the need to 'ninny' about messing with a falcons success.
Insecurity usually manifests itself in a subtle intolerance of other methods. If you are happy with your system, then their is no need to bolster it by slighting others....

Remember the cat Tony.

Nick

p.s keep your standards up Tony. I was enjoying the polite debate.
Don't let yourself down by reverting to snide and goading posts.
You do yourself a disservice. Stick to your lure justification. Its more interesting.

Tony James
25-03-2012, 08:39 AM
I think you'll find that dead lures came first, but hey who cares.
I don't know best but I know a working system that has few flaws so as with yourself why change?
Ive heard nothing about artificial lures that would in any way make me consider their use, unless I felt the need to 'ninny' about messing with a falcons success.
Insecurity usually manifests itself in a subtle intolerance of other methods. If you are happy with your system, then their is no need to bolster it by slighting others....

Remember the cat Tony.

Nick

Breath Nick, breeeeeeeth.

You've heard nothing about artificial lures that would in any way make you 'consider' their use?

You wouldn't 'consider' it?

Given the centuries of written advice on the subject, if you've heard nothing that would make you 'consider' using an artificial lure, do you think I'd be fool enough to try to convince you of anything?

Tony.



p.s keep your standards up Tony. I was enjoying the polite debate.
Don't let yourself down by reverting to snide and goading posts.
You do yourself a disservice. Stick to your lure justification. Its more interesting.

Please Nick, you worry about your own standards.

CloakDaggerTiercel
25-03-2012, 09:21 AM
You've heard nothing about artificial lures that would in any way make you 'consider' their use?

You wouldn't 'consider' it?

Given the centuries of written advice on the subject, if you've heard nothing that would make you 'consider' using an artificial lure, do you think I'd be fool enough to try to convince you of anything?

Tony.


Given the centuries of writen advice on both types of lure obviously everyone has had sufficient information to make either an informed choice or they made a choice because it's 'what the other bloke does'.

I always have and would always use an artificial lure for merlins (no wings though) as they have several advantages in that arena. Having said the best merlin Ive seen was called to dead sparrows and kills (not that I put its success down to that) .
But with gamehawks I considered their use and dismissed them in favour of something more suited to my circumstances.

I was ready to absorb any different take you might have on artificials as I like to think I can remain open minded to any advancement in our sport but upon review I'll not reach for the calfskin and lathe just yet :D

Nick

Judd Casper
25-03-2012, 09:25 AM
I think most game hawkers if their honest start off using artificial lures with the best intentions but then change when their pupil misbehaves in the field.Maybe game is knock into cover and the hawk goes back up to its pitch and looks like it is refusing to come down, not really a mind blowing dilemma some folk just make it so and give in and throw out a dead bird? Then we have a situation where the hawk is training monkey.



ATB
Sam

TomOlivia
25-03-2012, 09:32 AM
I think most game hawkers if their honest start off using artificial lures with the best intentions but then change when their pupil misbehaves in the field.Maybe game is knock into cover and the hawk goes back up to its pitch and looks like it is refusing to come down, not really a mind blowing dilemma some folk just make it so and give in and throw out a dead bird? Then we have a situation where the hawk is training monkey.



ATB
Sam

ooh ooh ooh, that's me Sam:lol::lol::lol:

Judd Casper
25-03-2012, 09:46 AM
ooh ooh ooh, that's me Sam:lol::lol::lol:

Oh' oobee do theirs a few like you:lol:


ATB
Sam

TomOlivia
25-03-2012, 09:51 AM
Oh' oobee do theirs a few like you:lol:


ATB
Sam

I'm just lazy Sam, that's the top and bottom of it! I'll put the work in to condition the hawk and do whatever I have to do to provide good slips (as you know), but it's just too easy to chuck yesterdays (or last weeks) kill out to recall a hawk. And anyway....don't you just love that yacky smell on your fingers when the old Pheaso has gone off?....can't resist a sly sniff eh:lol::lol::lol:

Tony James
25-03-2012, 01:07 PM
Given the centuries of writen advice on both types of lure obviously everyone has had sufficient information to make either an informed choice or they made a choice because it's 'what the other bloke does'.

I always have and would always use an artificial lure for merlins (no wings though) as they have several advantages in that arena. Having said the best merlin Ive seen was called to dead sparrows and kills (not that I put its success down to that) .
But with gamehawks I considered their use and dismissed them in favour of something more suited to my circumstances.

I was ready to absorb any different take you might have on artificials as I like to think I can remain open minded to any advancement in our sport but upon review I'll not reach for the calfskin and lathe just yet :D

Nick

I'm not aware of the centuries of advice recommending the use of a dead bird in preference to a lure. Maybe you could tell me where to look for it?

I'd be very interested to read of any perceived advantages from a pre-internet age.

Tony.

CloakDaggerTiercel
25-03-2012, 01:28 PM
I'd be very interested to read of any perceived advantages from a pre-internet age.

Tony.

No Tony it's your turn :D
I've already given you chapter and verse on dead lures.
I'd be interested to hear in any 'perceived advantages' of your artificial lure in a gamehawking sense as you haven't attempted to offer anything yet apart from opting out/herd following.
Have you any thoughts of your own?

Nick

Tony James
25-03-2012, 01:54 PM
No Tony it's your turn :D
I've already given you chapter and verse on dead lures.
I'd be interested to hear in any 'perceived advantages' of your artificial lure in a gamehawking sense as you haven't attempted to offer anything yet apart from opting out/herd following.
Have you any thoughts of your own?

Nick

Ray Turner writes a lovely line in his book. New falconers usually argue, young ones always do.
Come on Nick, you're into your 30's now. Start reading books before you sell them, and you'd realise that falconry was invented before the internet:yawinkle:.

CloakDaggerTiercel
25-03-2012, 02:13 PM
Ray Turner writes a lovely line in his book. New falconers usually argue, young ones always do.
Come on Nick, you're into your 30's now. Start reading books before you sell them, and you'd realise that falconry was invented before the internet:yawinkle:.

Ha ha, your dead right it was. Though I prefer Gamehawking at its Very Best as my bible. There are several great lines in that book particularly on grouse and duck hawking, by a range of respected authors.
It's certainly my desert island read.
Your loyalty to your friend is commendable too though and I found some parts of his work agreeable, others less so.

All falconers usually argue, gamehawkers always do, even before the internet was invented. Thats part of the fun, even for the mid lifer's it seems:D

So any thoughts on artificial lures and perceived advantages or not or are you stuck in mute librarian mode :D

Nick

p.s your slipping into petty insults again. Lay off the smarm ;)
All Im trying to do is get you to explain your choice of lure in your own words without derivative references?
I know what the books say, I want to know what do you think?

Brian Sullivan
25-03-2012, 02:34 PM
Sloppy lures, Sloppy Dogs, Sloppy Falconers, all make for "SLOPPY FALCONRY"..

It is OK if a Falconers standards are not held high, as if they are out there having fun in the slop that is that should matter. :lol:

Tony James
25-03-2012, 02:37 PM
Ha ha, your dead right it was. Though I prefer Gamehawking at its Very Best as my bible. There are several great lines in that book particularly on grouse and duck hawking, by a range of respected authors.
It's certainly my desert island read.
Your loyalty to your friend is commendable too though and I found some parts of his work agreeable, others less so.

All falconers usually argue, gamehawkers always do, even before the internet was invented. Thats part of the fun, even for the mid lifer's it seems:D

So any thoughts on artificial lures and perceived advantages or not or are you stuck in mute librarian mode :D

Nick

p.s your slipping into petty insults again. Lay off the smarm ;)
All Im trying to do is get you to explain your choice of lure in your own words without derivative references?
I know what the books say, I want to know what do you think?

Nick,

Ray will be inspired to hear you found his book agreeable in parts.

Tony.

CloakDaggerTiercel
25-03-2012, 02:42 PM
Nick,

Ray will be inspired to hear you found his book agreeable in parts.

Tony.

Yeah, the grouse hawking chapter was alright.

Nick

Tony James
25-03-2012, 02:43 PM
Yeah, the grouse hawking chapter was alright.

Nick

:lol::lol::lol:

SakerJack
25-03-2012, 04:01 PM
You may be a longwing novice Terry, but that's good advice.
A falcon treated thus, and managed well, will return to her accustomed lure whether it's a winged lure, a dead gamebird, or a tennis ball.

Best wishes,

Tony.

So true a friend used a coffee cup, I use the sole of a shoe.

Little Joe
25-03-2012, 04:56 PM
So true a friend used a coffee cup, I use the sole of a shoe.

I had an owl that loved a baby slipper! :-)

Judd Casper
25-03-2012, 05:04 PM
Ha ha, your dead right it was. Though I prefer Gamehawking at its Very Best as my bible. There are several great lines in that book particularly on grouse and duck hawking, by a range of respected authors.
It's certainly my desert island read.
Your loyalty to your friend is commendable too though and I found some parts of his work agreeable, others less so.

All falconers usually argue, gamehawkers always do, even before the internet was invented. Thats part of the fun, even for the mid lifer's it seems:D

So any thoughts on artificial lures and perceived advantages or not or are you stuck in mute librarian mode :D

Nick

p.s your slipping into petty insults again. Lay off the smarm ;)
All Im trying to do is get you to explain your choice of lure in your own words without derivative references?
I know what the books say, I want to know what do you think?The advantages of using an artificial lure should be obvious Nick,your hawks want come down to anything but a dead bird.A hawk trained using an artificial lure will come down to just about anything thrown out, its been well documented on this thread several times by different people.If you've misplaced or lose your dead bird while out hawking your well and truly knackered.

Little Joe
25-03-2012, 05:10 PM
The advantages of using an artificial lure should be obvious Nick,your hawks want come down to anything but a dead bird.A hawk trained using an artificial lure will come down to just about anything thrown out, its been well documented on this thread several times by different people.If you've misplaced or lose your dead bird while out hawking your well and truly knackered.

True story!

But lately I'm seriously toying with glove recall for even longwings. I have one hybrid that now never sees a lure anymore. Its very convenient.

Rgds,
Jannes

CloakDaggerTiercel
25-03-2012, 05:20 PM
The advantages of using an artificial lure should be obvious Nick,your hawks want come down to anything but a dead bird.A hawk trained using an artificial lure will come down to just about anything thrown out, its been well documented on this thread several times by different people.If you've misplaced or lose your dead bird while out hawking your well and truly knackered.

Curious logic. Anyone who loses or misplaces their lure out in the field could be in a spot of bother. Thats not really about lure type but about a hypothetical situation. an artificial lure is just as easy to lose as a dead bird?

You've also made a big assumption that falcons used to dead lures won't come down to anything else. Not true, Ive called mine down to artificials when Ive needed to.

Its a nice theory, but not the reality in my experience.

Once or twice i lost my lure with my best tiercel and he would eventually come and land nearby and jump to my fist.

I got short with Pacman once but luckily had a half tennis ball and line in the emergency pocket so he came down anyway. But he would come down to a rolled up sock as he was very inquisitive.

I think the message you were trying to get over was don't lose your lure, which is basic common sense really.


Nick

Greg
25-03-2012, 05:25 PM
Curious logic. Anyone who loses or misplaces their lure out in the field could be in a spot of bother. Thats not really about lure type but about a hypothetical situation. an artificial lure is just as easy to lose as a dead bird?

You've also made a big assumption that falcons used to dead lures won't come down to anything else. Not true, Ive called mine down to artificials when Ive needed to.

Its a nice theory, but not the reality in my experience.

Once or twice i lost my lure with my best tiercel and he would eventually come and land nearby and jump to my fist.

I got short with Pacman once but luckily had a half tennis ball and line in the emergency pocket so he came down anyway. But he would come down to a rolled up sock as he was very inquisitive.

I think the message you were trying to get over was don't lose your lure, which is basic common sense really.


Nick

True Nick,
how many of us have not left a lure hanging on a fence at one time or another?

HuntersAll
25-03-2012, 05:28 PM
Start of each new season i tie a new dried set of cock pheasant wings to a lure pad i always have in my bag. If my Falcon doesn't kill,no problem coming in to either artificial or dropped dead bird,mostly a dead wood pigeon or pheasant but always thawed,never frozen because if they don't kill there daily ration will be coming from it. I would hate to cause one of my game hawks to rip out a talon or break a toe or leg even cutting over a frozen bird,a frozen pheasant or duck is quite some weight. I'll admit with my tiercel the way i fly and condition him top heavy,if he fails to kill he will more often than not go straight up high again and can be reluctant to come into a lure but will tip over coming straight in for a dropped dead bird,but i can live with that ;).
regards,
Tony.

Little Joe
25-03-2012, 05:32 PM
True Nick,
how many of us have not left a lure hanging on a fence at one time or another?

Why not minimise risk and have a lure that's permanenty attached to hawking jacket or bag?

Greg
25-03-2012, 05:35 PM
Why not minimise risk and have a lure that's permanenty attached to hawking jacket or bag?

It's an idea but I think it would end up in a tangle!
Or I would end up going base over apex when it caught as I climbed a fence!

Johny
25-03-2012, 05:38 PM
I tend to put my lure pad in the freezer, that way getting the best of both worlds. Infact, to promote good hygiene further I've been considering putting my hawking bag and all my clothes in the freezer too, just to be on the safe side.

Greg
25-03-2012, 05:41 PM
I tend to put my lure pad in the freezer, that way getting the best of both worlds. Infact, to promote good hygiene further I've been considering putting my hawking bag and all my clothes in the freezer too, just to be on the safe side.

Sounds interesting but I wouldn't fancy putting my underwear on when I was going hawking!

Little Joe
25-03-2012, 05:41 PM
It's an idea but I think it would end up in a tangle!
Or I would end up going base over apex when it caught as I climbed a fence!

Lol! :-)

No mate, I've been doing it for years. It just takes getting used to, that's all.

Judd Casper
25-03-2012, 05:45 PM
Curious logic. Anyone who loses or misplaces their lure out in the field could be in a spot of bother. Thats not really about lure type but about a hypothetical situation. an artificial lure is just as easy to lose as a dead bird?

You've also made a big assumption that falcons used to dead lures won't come down to anything else. Not true, Ive called mine down to artificials when Ive needed to.

Its a nice theory, but not the reality in my experience.

Once or twice i lost my lure with my best tiercel and he would eventually come and land nearby and jump to my fist.

I got short with Pacman once but luckily had a half tennis ball and line in the emergency pocket so he came down anyway. But he would come down to a rolled up sock as he was very inquisitive.

I think the message you were trying to get over was don't lose your lure, which is basic common sense really.


NickDead lures get them down when you need them down, your words not mine.Good training and conditioning with an artificial lure gets them down.The message I was trying to get across is from what Ive seen over the years is once a dead bird is used as a lure nothing else will do and if you lose it in the field you might as well whistle Dixie till you hearts content but its not gonna get your hawk down....you need to quickly find another dead bird or get out your receiver.

Greg
25-03-2012, 05:50 PM
This debate will just go round in circles as I'm sure there really isn't an answer that everyone will agree on! Whatever works for you has to be the bottom line.

CloakDaggerTiercel
25-03-2012, 05:54 PM
Dead lures get them down when you need them down, your words not mine.Good training and conditioning with an artificial lure gets them down.The message I was trying to get across is from what Ive seen over the years is once a dead bird is used as a lure nothing else will do and if you lose it in the field you might as well whistle Dixie till you hearts content but its not gonna get your hawk down....you need to quickly find another dead bird or get out your receiver.


Whatever gets them down gets them down is what you're trying to get over.

My system works great and Ive never lost a falcon or even had to look for one due to a dead lure or lack of. Why would I change.

If an artificial brings the same results then great.

A dead bird always gets them down you're right. And like Tony A. said if my tiercel was remounting a refusing to go home without a kill unless a dead bird was thrown out then A. thats a nice problem to have and B. it shows a hunting partner with a great attitude.

Whatever works. I'll tie my dead bird to my jacket in Jannes style.
Will that do :D

Nick

Little Joe
25-03-2012, 05:54 PM
Dead lures get them down when you need them down, your words not mine.Good training and conditioning with an artificial lure gets them down.The message I was trying to get across is from what Ive seen over the years is once a dead bird is used as a lure nothing else will do and if you lose it in the field you might as well whistle Dixie till you hearts content but its not gonna get your hawk down....you need to quickly find another dead bird or get out your receiver.

Sorry Sam, this just not true. Its how the bird was trained. I had a female African peregrine that loved killing pigeons. She would break off a pursuit to come down to and ungarnished lure of rubber inner tubing!

Its conditioning and not allowing the bird to dictate terms during early training.

The falcon does not decide things, you do. Its a mental state you have to acquire. Sorry if I sound arrogant mate, but its the truth.

Rgds,
Jannes

Brian Sullivan
25-03-2012, 06:03 PM
Tennis Balls, Frozen/decaying carcass's, etc...:rolleyes: :lol:

Greg
25-03-2012, 06:04 PM
Tennis Balls, Frozen/decaying carcass's, etc...:rolleyes: :lol:

Hey Brian, here is a falcon flown to a tennis ball lure!
Tom and Turbo - YouTube

Johny
25-03-2012, 06:23 PM
Sounds interesting but I wouldn't fancy putting my underwear on when I was going hawking!

He he he, no mate, this is why I've then considered I will need to put my whole self in the freezer, just to be totally on the safe side you understand.

Brian Sullivan
25-03-2012, 06:33 PM
Hey Brian, here is a falcon flown to a tennis ball lure!
Tom and Turbo - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9HzxQuk2eE)

I also heard this guy using the Tennis Ball was also abducted by Aliens. :lol:

Greg
25-03-2012, 08:30 PM
I also heard this guy using the Tennis Ball was also abducted by Aliens. :lol:

Yes but the Mexican gang boss let him go!

Brian Sullivan
25-03-2012, 08:45 PM
Yes but the Mexican gang boss let him go!

That figures!

Tony James
25-03-2012, 11:32 PM
So true a friend used a coffee cup, I use the sole of a shoe.

I'm starting to think the best lure might be 'soap on a rope'? Easy to keep clean, and a good test of a falcons footing on wet days:lol:.

Trust you're well my friend,

Tony.

Brian Sullivan
25-03-2012, 11:45 PM
I'm starting to think the best lure might be 'soap on a rope'? Easy to keep clean, and a good test of a falcons footing on wet days:lol:.

Trust you're well my friend,

Tony.

Tony, You have really inspired me with the "Soap on a Rope". I remember way back to when I had a "Frog" that was made of green rubber and it even floated in the tube and would hold you soap on it's belly. I think we all need to go green and I will for sure be on the look out for one of those green Frogy's to start using for a lure!

Judd Casper
26-03-2012, 09:06 AM
Sorry Sam, this just not true. Its how the bird was trained. I had a female African peregrine that loved killing pigeons. She would break off a pursuit to come down to and ungarnished lure of rubber inner tubing!

Its conditioning and not allowing the bird to dictate terms during early training.

The falcon does not decide things, you do. Its a mental state you have to acquire. Sorry if I sound arrogant mate, but its the truth.

Rgds,
JannesJannes I think you read my post wrong I was quoting Nick from his earlier post,your spot on its conditioning and not allowing your hawk to dictate the terms during early training that create that quick response artificial lure bond that should last throughout your hawks hunting career.


ATB
Sam

This debate will just go round in circles as I'm sure there really isn't an answer that everyone will agree on! Whatever works for you has to be the bottom line.It probably will Greg I just don't think its good practice to be advising anyone to use a dead carcass for a lure. It creates problems as most of us know and does nothing to progress the hawks hunting ability as some are trying to make out it does.So nothing really to be gained from it but the adverse affects are commonly known.


ATB
Sam

Judd Casper
26-03-2012, 09:32 AM
Whatever gets them down gets them down is what you're trying to get over.

My system works great and Ive never lost a falcon or even had to look for one due to a dead lure or lack of. Why would I change.

If an artificial brings the same results then great.

A dead bird always gets them down you're right. And like Tony A. said if my tiercel was remounting a refusing to go home without a kill unless a dead bird was thrown out then A. thats a nice problem to have and B. it shows a hunting partner with a great attitude.

Whatever works. I'll tie my dead bird to my jacket in Jannes style.
Will that do :D

NickI think this little snippet from you in an earlier post on this thread says it all Nick.
'The best and handiest artificial lure Ive seen is half a tennis ball that Greg Butler trained pacman with,but I soon trained that out of him and it was back to cadavers'......contradicting yourself yet again, I see a pattern emerging:lol:

TomOlivia
26-03-2012, 12:31 PM
I think Johny's posts on this subject make more sense than all the others put together:supz:

I think I'll always start a new hawk on an artificial lure then work my way down to a dead bird....I sort of like the nasty surprise two or tree times each season of finding a rotten, stinking carcass in my bag:lol:

Well done for keeping it clean Boy's....just!

regards, Michael.

Brian Sullivan
26-03-2012, 02:32 PM
Boys train you Falcon and your Dogs! If you have to use a dead bird or a live one as many do here in the US, you have not really trained you Falcon well. Don't be lazy and sloppy and spend the little extra time with the proper reinforcement of the lure.

Judd Casper
26-03-2012, 02:52 PM
Boys train you Falcon and your Dogs! If you have to use a dead bird or a live one as many do here in the US, you have not really trained you Falcon well. Don't be lazy and sloppy and spend the little extra time with the proper reinforcement of the lure.Amen to that Brian I 100% agree.:supz:



ATB
Sam

SmallPeregrine
26-03-2012, 03:10 PM
Boys train you Falcon and your Dogs! If you have to use a dead bird or a live one as many do here in the US, you have not really trained you Falcon well. Don't be lazy and sloppy and spend the little extra time with the proper reinforcement of the lure.

Amen to that Brian I 100% agree.:supz:



ATB
Sam
The IFF cognoscenti have spoken!
Thats it sorted then????...
We're all doing it wrong boys.....again:roll:

Greg
26-03-2012, 03:56 PM
It probably will Greg I just don't think its good practice to be advising anyone to use a dead carcass for a lure. It creates problems as most of us know and does nothing to progress the hawks hunting ability as some are trying to make out it does.So nothing really to be gained from it but the adverse affects are commonly known.
ATB
Sam

I agree Sam and I have never advised anyone to use a carcass, however there are people who make it work but its not for me! Yes in an emergency I will use a carcass but as a rule I use an artificial lure myself! Once a bird is trained I don't garnish it but I can still pull a bird off a pursuit when I need to! I don't think the looks of the lure make much difference to the bird in terms of hunting drive but I'm willing to listen if someone comes up with proof! I try not to be of a closed mind and I like to try different ideas! but there are always those of use that will stick to what we were first told or read about. There are always new ideas coming up and I think we often owe it to ourselves to try some of them! New ideas have enabled falconry to be where it is today! Where would we be without imprints AI. telemetry etc!

Brian Sullivan
26-03-2012, 04:15 PM
The IFF cognoscenti have spoken!
Thats it sorted then????...
We're all doing it wrong boys.....again:roll:

There you go Boy; Fly with silted Jess's, one transmitter, no Dog, a Carcass-sickle, Yadda, Yadda, Yadda......:roll: Oh yes, then write a "Book"!

SmallPeregrine
26-03-2012, 04:22 PM
There you go Boy; Fly with silted Jess's, one transmitter, no Dog, a Carcass-sickle, Yadda, Yadda, Yadda......:roll: Oh yes, then write a "Book"!
Silted jesses, not mean slited jesses, you can't even spell the word, you have the cheek to call Fraz for his spelling too:roll:
Who flys with one transmitter ... Not me Brian look again, with eye sight like yours no wonder you think your hawks pitch out of sight lol

Brian Sullivan
26-03-2012, 04:35 PM
Silted jesses, not mean slited jesses, you can't even spell the word, you have the cheek to call Fraz too for his spelling:roll:
Who flys with one transmitter ... Not me Brian look again, with eye sight like yours no wonder your hawks fly out of sight lol

OH! one word! spell check got me this time, but you get me laughing every time! :lol: One word for you "LURE"!:lol:

Tony James
26-03-2012, 04:40 PM
OH! one word! spell check got me this time, but you get me laughing every time! :lol: One word for you "LURE"!:lol:

Lure? Who needs one of those? With telemetry you can pick them up in no time, and have a fresh pigeon for dinner:lol:

Greg
26-03-2012, 04:45 PM
Don't worry Brian you are not alone in misspelling a word you should see the spelling mistakes in some of the pm's I received on another forum! I posted them all on the Old Farts Club so they could have a good laugh!
Just the odd one gets through with all of us!

SmallPeregrine
26-03-2012, 05:01 PM
OH! one word! spell check got me this time, but you get me laughing every time! :lol: One word for you "LURE"!:lol:
Yes Brian the US falconer who come to spectate your standard of Hawking, He reported that the LURE was the only thing you Falcons were capable of catching :lol:
Lure? Who needs one of those? With telemetry you can pick them up in no time, and have a fresh pigeon for dinner
Tony you obviously talking from experience unfortunately it has never actually worked out that way for you in the past now has it!
How many Falcons have you lost in the last decade and never returned??? tut tut.
Maybes you want to consider using a dead Pheasant or duck cause your current ungarnished lure has held little attraction to retrieve your previous errant Falcons:idea:

Brian Sullivan
26-03-2012, 05:16 PM
Yes Brian the UK falconer who come to spectate your standard of Hawking, He reported that the LURE was the only thing you Falcons were capable of catching :lol:

Tony you obviously talking from experience unfortunately it has never actually worked out that way for you in the past now has it!
How many Falcons have you lost in the last decade and never returned??? tut tut.
Maybes you want to consider using a dead Pheasant or duck cause your current ungarnished lure has held little attraction to retrieve your previous errant Falcons:idea:

That is strange statement and I have to say I have not had a Falconer from the UK ever come here and go hawking with me, but that is OK if you want to make something up in your mind. Again, one word "LURE" I think if we use repetition on you it might finally stick, like the "Slit-ed" Jess's you would repeatedly using and yes "Slited" is not a word, don't worry I will not tell anyone.:lol:

Judd Casper
26-03-2012, 05:40 PM
The IFF cognoscenti have spoken!
Thats it sorted then????...
We're all doing it wrong boys.....again:roll:Phil two words watch this:lol:

I agree Sam and I have never advised anyone to use a carcass, however there are people who make it work but its not for me! Yes in an emergency I will use a carcass but as a rule I use an artificial lure myself! Once a bird is trained I don't garnish it but I can still pull a bird off a pursuit when I need to! I don't think the looks of the lure make much difference to the bird in terms of hunting drive but I'm willing to listen if someone comes up with proof! I try not to be of a closed mind and I like to try different ideas! but there are always those of use that will stick to what we were first told or read about. There are always new ideas coming up and I think we often owe it to ourselves to try some of them! New ideas have enabled falconry to be where it is today! Where would we be without imprints AI. telemetry etc!Greg I know we are singing from the same hymn sheet,I just wouldn't want to start out in game hawking with the best thing to use as a lure is a dead carcass,making a rod for your own back if you go down this route in my opinion.


ATB
Sam

Tony James
26-03-2012, 06:05 PM
Yes Brian the UK falconer who come to spectate your standard of Hawking, He reported that the LURE was the only thing you Falcons were capable of catching :lol:

Tony you obviously talking from experience unfortunately it has never actually worked out that way for you in the past now has it!
How many Falcons have you lost in the last decade and never returned??? tut tut.
Maybes you want to consider using a dead Pheasant or duck cause your current ungarnished lure has held little attraction to retrieve your previous errant Falcons:idea:

You tell me Phil. You seem to enjoy making up stories about people like me.
Which is a shame really, when they're based on about as much truth as the stories you make up about yourself.

Anyhow, at least you had the decency to admit to taking one pigeon this season. Just one.

Really Phil? Are you sure?

Just one?

http://falconryforum.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=126686&stc=1&d=1332785146

CloakDaggerTiercel
26-03-2012, 06:34 PM
I think this little snippet from you in an earlier post on this thread says it all Nick.
'The best and handiest artificial lure Ive seen is half a tennis ball that Greg Butler trained pacman with,but I soon trained that out of him and it was back to cadavers'......contradicting yourself yet again, I see a pattern emerging:lol:

There are a couple of patterns emerging. One of a jealous pr4t who won't let go of the past and the other being that my system works for me.
My game hawks come back to my lures as well as any one elses system.
If you wanted to use half a car tyre I could care less. If it works for you then great. All it needs to be 100% perfect is to get the falcon out of the air whenever you want. End of conversation.

Im more interested in how they go up, how they come down and what they catch. The best lure is the one that rarely needs to be taken out of the hawking bag ;).
If your falcon gets plenty of practice coming back to an artificial lure then great! Kudos.

If you or anyone else don't agree with anyone using a dead lure then fine I couldn't give a monkey :lol:

Keep trying to make it sound like a fault little monkey, your funny :D

Nick

Judd Casper
26-03-2012, 07:13 PM
There are a couple of patterns emerging. One of a jealous pr4t who won't let go of the past and the other being that my system works for me.
My game hawks come back to my lures as well as any one elses system.
If you wanted to use half a car tyre I could care less. If it works for you then great. All it needs to be 100% perfect is to get the falcon out of the air whenever you want. End of conversation.

Im more interested in how they go up, how they come down and what they catch. The best lure is the one that rarely needs to be taken out of the hawking bag ;).
If your falcon gets plenty of practice coming back to an artificial lure then great! Kudos.

If you or anyone else don't agree with anyone using a dead lure then fine I couldn't give a monkey :lol:

Keep trying to make it sound like a fault little monkey, your funny :D

NickNick you really are going to have to get up to speed with this thread and STOP CONTRADICTING YOURSELF its a bit embarrassing mate.:lol:

BenBamber
26-03-2012, 07:22 PM
First of all thank you for all the advice all I wanted was a informative thread with I got at the begging but now it seem people personal views of each other are coming it to it and it's descending into another fight.
Thank you to all who have been informative
Ben

Crawford
26-03-2012, 07:30 PM
First of all thank you for all the advice all I wanted was a informative thread with I got at the begging but now it seem people personal views of each other are coming it to it and it's descending into another fight.
Thank you to all who have been informative
Ben

You have started a great thead Ben, much banter, totally addictive, long may it go on :supz:

CloakDaggerTiercel
26-03-2012, 07:37 PM
Nick you really are going to have to get up to speed with this thread and STOP CONTRADICTING YOURSELF its a bit embarrassing mate.:lol:

Don't be embarrassed, it's only a discussion. Breeaath.
I'm enjoying the varying views:D

Judd Casper
26-03-2012, 07:52 PM
Don't be embarrassed, it's only a discussion. Breeaath.
I'm enjoying the varying views:DNick its you that should be embarrassed. I'm not the one calling someone a jealous pr£t that was you so take a real deep breath and breeaath real slowly or I might have to tell the teacher, oh no that's your thing.I only see two views on this discussion yours and everyone else's.

Greg
26-03-2012, 08:00 PM
My God! This thread is starting to look like the battle of Trafalgar! Problem is I'm not quite sure who fighting for who this time! Are we really only talking about lures?

OutFlying
26-03-2012, 08:11 PM
You tell me Phil. You seem to enjoy making up stories about people like me.
Which is a shame really, when they're based on about as much truth as the stories you make up about yourself.

Anyhow, at least you had the decency to admit to taking one pigeon this season. Just one.

Really Phil? Are you sure?

Just one?

http://falconryforum.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=126686&stc=1&d=1332785146


E.T. Extra tssticle ?

Tony James
26-03-2012, 08:12 PM
E.T. Extra tssticle ?

On smallpenis? That would be funny:lol::lol::lol:

But what a great lure:-)

CloakDaggerTiercel
26-03-2012, 08:14 PM
I only see two views on this discussion yours and everyone else's.

That's fine. I'm secure enough in being a maverick. It makes you the one buffalo not run off the cliff when the indians come for the rest of them!
Like I say I'm happy using the system Ive always used with success until someone suggests something better........ :lol:

TerryS
26-03-2012, 08:29 PM
Poor Ben

He was only looking for advice on a lure.

Got a pair of me old woman's draws here for him.

No need for garnish or wrangle !

But great for swinging around your head in field and moor.

SmallPeregrine
26-03-2012, 08:47 PM
That is strange statement and I have to say I have not had a Falconer from the UK ever come here and go hawking with me, but that is OK if you want to make something up in your mind. Again, one word "LURE" I think if we use repetition on you it might finally stick, like the "Slit-ed" Jess's you would repeatedly using and yes "Slited" is not a word, don't worry I will not tell anyone.:lol:
Actually sorry Brian that should be US Falconer instead of UK, your Dyslexia is rubbing off on me. I'm glad thats all though, we might finally be getting Wild Take reinstated in the future, I would hate to inherit your Philosophy concerning the wild Peregrine being sub standard to captive bred.:idea:

SmallPeregrine
26-03-2012, 08:59 PM
You tell me Phil. You seem to enjoy making up stories about people like me.
Which is a shame really, when they're based on about as much truth as the stories you make up about yourself.

Anyhow, at least you had the decency to admit to taking one pigeon this season. Just one.

Really Phil? Are you sure?

Just one?

http://falconryforum.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=126686&stc=1&d=1332785146

On a small penis? That would be funny:lol:

But what a great lure:-)

Where did I mention I took a pigeon in my thread, thats about as true as you pontificating taking 41 head this season:roll:
Are you including the ones that disappear down rabbit holes too in your end of season tally:goodman:
If I were you stick to your day time job, pics supplied below, and leave the flying falcons to those who know what their talking about!

Tony James
26-03-2012, 09:52 PM
That's the way to do it:lol:

How many?:lol::lol::lol:

http://falconryforum.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=126702&stc=1&d=1332798720

Brian Sullivan
26-03-2012, 10:37 PM
Actually sorry Brian that should be US Falconer instead of UK, your Dyslexia is rubbing off on me. I'm glad thats all though, we might finally be getting Wild Take reinstated in the future, I would hate to inherit your Philosophy concerning the wild Peregrine being sub standard to captive bred.:idea:

Feel free to ask Ed Pitcher or Fayed Fayed how my Falcons fly on Grouse. They are the only one's I can think of that I actually hawked with season, besides one close friend and he might be little biased.

Sorry to inform you that you are not suffering from Dyslexia my boy, but a bad case of Narcissistic behavior. Seen it over and over in Falconry for the last 40 years.

SmallPeregrine
26-03-2012, 10:55 PM
That's the way to do it

How many?

No Tony it's your turn :D
I've already given you chapter and verse on dead lures.
I'd be interested to hear in any 'perceived advantages' of your artificial lure in a gamehawking sense as you haven't attempted to offer anything yet apart from opting out/herd following.
Have you any thoughts of your own?

Nick
As Nick and others have mentioned before you merely polish the theories of others having no real idea. On the rare occasion that you do express your opinions on training and day to day management of Falcons in the field they are intangible to say the very least:rolleyes:.
Hell its common knowledge your Peregrine/Barbary hybrid wasnt firing on all four cyclinders for a least a month last season and you expect everyone to believe your end of season tally:roll:
Is that the way to do it???? LOL
Now contribute positively to this thread and lets hear your reasons on using a artificial Lure:goodman:???

Feel free to ask Ed Pitcher or Fayed Fayed how my Falcons fly on Grouse. They are the only one's I can think of that I actually hawked with season, besides one close friend and he might be little biased.


Mind Ed Pitchers a goodun to ask Brian after reading the Flying of Falcons....
I'll keep you guessing its someone off Nafex who I have known for a good while. You remember Nafex Brian dont you???
You have a life time ban on there do you not??

Tony James
26-03-2012, 11:10 PM
As Nick and others have mentioned before you merely polish the theories of others having no real idea. On the rare occasion that you do express your opinions on training and day to day management of Falcons in the field they are intangible to say the very least:rolleyes:.
Hell its common knowledge your Peregrine/Barbary hybrid wasnt firing on all four cyclinders for a least a month last season and you expect everyone to believe your end of season tally:roll:
Is that the way to do it???? LOL
Now contribute positively to this thread and lets hear your reasons on using a artificial Lure:goodman:???


Mind Ed Pitchers a goodun to ask Brian after reading the Flying of Falcons....
I'll keep you guessing its someone off Nafex who I have known for a good while. You remember Nafex Brian dont you???
You have a life time ban on there do you not??

I'd be proud to think I were able to 'polish the theories of others', but given that you've levelled the same ridiculous accusation at Ray Turner, I'll consider that a compliment.

So thank you Phil.

Greg
26-03-2012, 11:22 PM
Nothing like a few statistics to make a point!





Returns to lure 2011-2012 Season

WIND CONDITIONS - 0-17mph 23%, 13-19mph 75%, 19-25mph 2%

QUALITY OF RETURN - Fantastic - 92%, Slightly Slow - 8%.

HAWK'S PERFORMANCE - Fantastic - 90%, Landed on Lure- 4%, Struck Lure - 2%, Slow to Come Overhead - 2%,

BREAKDOWN OF GAME FLOWN 55 Slazenger Tennis Balls 4 Leather lures and 10 sets of wings
Out of 35 Stooped at; 1 was Struck/Raked Over & missed whilst 2 were Smashed into the ground (both Knock Downs).

Out of 5 Tennis Balls Stooped at (3 yellow & 2 red)) 2 were Knocked-down/Escaped whilst 3 were Killed and the pick up made
On the 2 occasions that she flew at Check she failed to kill. Very lucky really as it would have spoilt the tennis match!

PITCH - Her Seasonal Average was 782.3418ft which compares favourably with the previous seasonís 717.24ft from 53 flights.
Her Most Common Pitch was 10000ft being taken 46% of the time.
67% of her Pitches were between 1500ft and 5500ft.
This Compares with Last Season when 92% of her Pitches were between 50ft and 120ft.

Her unbroken run of 45 stoops without a miss compares favourably with the previous seasonís best of 7 tennis balls and a shuttlecock!

Best flight of the season was at Trafalgar when a stoop from 6500ft resulted in a bisected frozen partridge and a falcon with two smashed legs!

Brian Sullivan
26-03-2012, 11:25 PM
As Nick and others have mentioned before you merely polish the theories of others having no real idea. On the rare occasion that you do express your opinions on training and day to day management of Falcons in the field they are intangible to say the very least:rolleyes:.
Hell its common knowledge your Peregrine/Barbary hybrid wasnt firing on all four cyclinders for a least a month last season and you expect everyone to believe your end of season tally:roll:
Is that the way to do it???? LOL
Now contribute positively to this thread and lets hear your reasons on using a artificial Lure:goodman:???


Mind Ed Pitchers a goodun to ask Brian after reading the Flying of Falcons....
I'll keep you guessing its someone off Nafex who I have known for a good while. You remember Nafex Brian dont you???
You have a life time ban on there do you not??

The cheerleaders on Nafex? Yes, I know some of them well and they are not Game Hawkers in any aspect, as they struggle to even keep a bird longer then a month much less a season. A kettle of them are just little Girls looking to have a reality show about themselves! :lol:
As great Winston Churchill once said; You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.

It not too late for you to find someone to help with your Narcissism!

Tony James
27-03-2012, 12:31 AM
Nothing like a few statistics to make a point!





Returns to lure 2011-2012 Season

WIND CONDITIONS - 0-17mph 23%, 13-19mph 75%, 19-25mph 2%

QUALITY OF RETURN - Fantastic - 92%, Slightly Slow - 8%.

HAWK'S PERFORMANCE - Fantastic - 90%, Landed on Lure- 4%, Struck Lure - 2%, Slow to Come Overhead - 2%,

BREAKDOWN OF GAME FLOWN 55 Slazenger Tennis Balls 4 Leather lures and 10 sets of wings
Out of 35 Stooped at; 1 was Struck/Raked Over & missed whilst 2 were Smashed into the ground (both Knock Downs).

Out of 5 Tennis Balls Stooped at (3 yellow & 2 red)) 2 were Knocked-down/Escaped whilst 3 were Killed and the pick up made
On the 2 occasions that she flew at Check she failed to kill. Very lucky really as it would have spoilt the tennis match!

PITCH - Her Seasonal Average was 782.3418ft which compares favourably with the previous season’s 717.24ft from 53 flights.
Her Most Common Pitch was 10000ft being taken 46% of the time.
67% of her Pitches were between 1500ft and 5500ft.
This Compares with Last Season when 92% of her Pitches were between 50ft and 120ft.

Her unbroken run of 45 stoops without a miss compares favourably with the previous season’s best of 7 tennis balls and a shuttlecock!

Best flight of the season was at Trafalgar when a stoop from 6500ft resulted in a bisected frozen partridge and a falcon with two smashed legs!

Hi Greg,

statistics can be really useful in getting the message across sometimes, but people often switch off to boring statistics, sometimes even doubting their authenticity.
Some organisations have realised the 'power of song', and I came across the lyrics to this old song by Phil Harris and Orville (known then as Jintz/Jinty/Ginty/Gimpy), designed to educate falconers about the hazards of using frozen lures.
Mr Harris and Orville didn't have a great image at first, but later changed to something much more appealing, but the lyrics remained unchanged over the years.
I hope you like it.


Jintz: I wish I could fly way up in the sky but I can’t,
Phil: You can,
Jintz: I can’t!
Jintz: I wish I could see what folks see in me but I can’t,
Phil: You can,
Jintz: I can’t!


Phil: Look, Jinty,
Jintz: Yes?
Phil: Nothing that you can say
Will thaw out your lure today:
I know that we’ll never part;
Now hear what I’m saying, Jinty?
Jintz: Yes?
Phil: Who is your very best friend?
Jintz: You are.
Phil: I’m gonna help you mend your broken legs.
Jintz: Thank you.


Jintz: I wish that I had a nice lure pad but I don’t,
Phil: You don’t?
Jintz: I don’t!


Jintz: I often pretend the swelling will end but it won’t,
Phil: It will,
Jintz: It won’t!


Phil: Look, Jinty,
Jintz: Yes?
Phil: Now that I’m here with you,
There’s nothing a freezer can’t do,
So why don’t you make a start
And hear what I’m saying, Jinty?
Jintz: Yes?
Phil: Who is your very best friend?
Jintz: You are.
Phil: I’m gonna help you mend your broken legs.
Jintz: Ahhh…

Jintz: So does this mean although I’m too keen
And not really right,
You want to care and will be there
To tuck me in at night?
Phil: Well, I’ll always be there, Jinty!

Jintz: The other birds laugh and say that I’m daft and I am,
Phil: You’re not!
Jintz: I am!


Jintz: They tease me a lot and call me a clot and I am,
Phil: You’re not!
Jintz: I am!


Phil: Look, Jinty?
Jintz: Yes?
Phil: Nothing that you can say
Will change how I feel today:
I know that we’ll never part;
Now hear what I’m saying, Jinty?
Jintz: Yes?
Phil: Who is your very best friend?
Jintz: You are.
Phil: I’m gonna help you mend your broken legs.

[Spoken]
Jintz: Thank you. ‘Cos I’ve got broken legs, haven’t I?
Phil: Yes, I know, but I’m going to help you mend them.
Jintz: You, you will do it, won’t you. You’ll help me?
Phil: Of course.
Jintz: ‘Cos you love me, don’t you?
Phil: We all love you, Jinty.
Jintz: How, how, how much do you love me?
Phil: Ooh… this much!
Jintz: As much as that?
Phil: Yeah.
Jintz: Ahhh… my broken heart.

http://falconryforum.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=126708&stc=1&d=1332808270

http://falconryforum.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=126709&stc=1&d=1332808299

Fraser Hamilton
27-03-2012, 03:48 AM
Hahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaahahahahaahaha haaahajahahhahahahahahahahaha thanks to you i woke my mum and dad up from laughing honistly you deserve a medal of some sort same with greg Hi Greg,

statistics can be really useful in getting the message across sometimes, but people often switch off to boring statistics, sometimes even doubting their authenticity.
Some organisations have realised the 'power of song', and I came across the lyrics to this old song by Phil Harris and Orville (known then as Jintz/Jinty/Ginty/Gimpy), designed to educate falconers about the hazards of using frozen lures.
Mr Harris and Orville didn't have a great image at first, but later changed to something much more appealing, but the lyrics remained unchanged over the years.
I hope you like it.


Jintz: I wish I could fly way up in the sky but I canít,
Phil: You can,
Jintz: I canít!
Jintz: I wish I could see what folks see in me but I canít,
Phil: You can,
Jintz: I canít!


Phil: Look, Jinty,
Jintz: Yes?
Phil: Nothing that you can say
Will thaw out your lure today:
I know that weíll never part;
Now hear what Iím saying, Jinty?
Jintz: Yes?
Phil: Who is your very best friend?
Jintz: You are.
Phil: Iím gonna help you mend your broken legs.
Jintz: Thank you.


Jintz: I wish that I had a nice lure pad but I donít,
Phil: You donít?
Jintz: I donít!


Jintz: I often pretend the swelling will end but it wonít,
Phil: It will,
Jintz: It wonít!


Phil: Look, Jinty,
Jintz: Yes?
Phil: Now that Iím here with you,
Thereís nothing a freezer canít do,
So why donít you make a start
And hear what Iím saying, Jinty?
Jintz: Yes?
Phil: Who is your very best friend?
Jintz: You are.
Phil: Iím gonna help you mend your broken legs.
Jintz: AhhhÖ

Jintz: So does this mean although Iím too keen
And not really right,
You want to care and will be there
To tuck me in at night?
Phil: Well, Iíll always be there, Jinty!

Jintz: The other birds laugh and say that Iím daft and I am,
Phil: Youíre not!
Jintz: I am!


Jintz: They tease me a lot and call me a clot and I am,
Phil: Youíre not!
Jintz: I am!


Phil: Look, Jinty?
Jintz: Yes?
Phil: Nothing that you can say
Will change how I feel today:
I know that weíll never part;
Now hear what Iím saying, Jinty?
Jintz: Yes?
Phil: Who is your very best friend?
Jintz: You are.
Phil: Iím gonna help you mend your broken legs.

[Spoken]
Jintz: Thank you. ĎCos Iíve got broken legs, havenít I?
Phil: Yes, I know, but Iím going to help you mend them.
Jintz: You, you will do it, wonít you. Youíll help me?
Phil: Of course.
Jintz: ĎCos you love me, donít you?
Phil: We all love you, Jinty.
Jintz: How, how, how much do you love me?
Phil: OohÖ this much!
Jintz: As much as that?
Phil: Yeah.
Jintz: AhhhÖ my broken heart.

http://falconryforum.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=126708&stc=1&d=1332808270

http://falconryforum.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=126709&stc=1&d=1332808299

Judd Casper
27-03-2012, 06:49 AM
That's fine. I'm secure enough in being a maverick. It makes you the one buffalo not run off the cliff when the indians come for the rest of them!
Like I say I'm happy using the system Ive always used with success until someone suggests something better........ :lol:Nick if I'm the buffalo you must be the white man the Indians mentioned throughout history who spoke with fork tongue, because you contradict yourself over and over again and talk complete tripe on here.:lol:

SmallPeregrine
27-03-2012, 07:41 AM
Nothing like a few statistics to make a point!





Returns to lure 2011-2012 Season

WIND CONDITIONS - 0-17mph 23%, 13-19mph 75%, 19-25mph 2%

QUALITY OF RETURN - Fantastic - 92%, Slightly Slow - 8%.

HAWK'S PERFORMANCE - Fantastic - 90%, Landed on Lure- 4%, Struck Lure - 2%, Slow to Come Overhead - 2%,

BREAKDOWN OF GAME FLOWN 55 Slazenger Tennis Balls 4 Leather lures and 10 sets of wings
Out of 35 Stooped at; 1 was Struck/Raked Over & missed whilst 2 were Smashed into the ground (both Knock Downs).

Out of 5 Tennis Balls Stooped at (3 yellow & 2 red)) 2 were Knocked-down/Escaped whilst 3 were Killed and the pick up made
On the 2 occasions that she flew at Check she failed to kill. Very lucky really as it would have spoilt the tennis match!

PITCH - Her Seasonal Average was 782.3418ft which compares favourably with the previous seasonís 717.24ft from 53 flights.
Her Most Common Pitch was 10000ft being taken 46% of the time.
67% of her Pitches were between 1500ft and 5500ft.
This Compares with Last Season when 92% of her Pitches were between 50ft and 120ft.

Her unbroken run of 45 stoops without a miss compares favourably with the previous seasonís best of 7 tennis balls and a shuttlecock!

Best flight of the season was at Trafalgar when a stoop from 6500ft resulted in a bisected frozen partridge and a falcon with two smashed legs!
I've been itching to ask you Greg about the Tennis ball lure:goodman:
Do you think its the way your serve the Tennis ball Lure that makes it more enticing or does it actually improve the Falcons back swing?:-D
Lastly what Tennis ball do you recommend Slazenger or Dunlop they both have different bounce qualitys important if one drops it out of one bag me thinks pmsl:lol:
Tennis ball lure indeed, whatever will they think of next:roll:

SmallPeregrine
27-03-2012, 08:07 AM
Hi Greg,

statistics can be really useful in getting the message across sometimes, but people often switch off to boring statistics, sometimes even doubting their authenticity.
Some organisations have realised the 'power of song', and I came across the lyrics to this old song by Phil Harris and Orville (known then as Jintz/Jinty/Ginty/Gimpy), designed to educate falconers about the hazards of using frozen lures.
Mr Harris and Orville didn't have a great image at first, but later changed to something much more appealing, but the lyrics remained unchanged over the years.
I hope you like it.


Jintz: I wish I could fly way up in the sky but I can’t,
Phil: You can,
Jintz: I can’t!
Jintz: I wish I could see what folks see in me but I can’t,
Phil: You can,
Jintz: I can’t!


Phil: Look, Jinty,
Jintz: Yes?
Phil: Nothing that you can say
Will thaw out your lure today:
I know that we’ll never part;
Now hear what I’m saying, Jinty?
Jintz: Yes?
Phil: Who is your very best friend?
Jintz: You are.
Phil: I’m gonna help you mend your broken legs.
Jintz: Thank you.


Jintz: I wish that I had a nice lure pad but I don’t,
Phil: You don’t?
Jintz: I don’t!


Jintz: I often pretend the swelling will end but it won’t,
Phil: It will,
Jintz: It won’t!


Phil: Look, Jinty,
Jintz: Yes?
Phil: Now that I’m here with you,
There’s nothing a freezer can’t do,
So why don’t you make a start
And hear what I’m saying, Jinty?
Jintz: Yes?
Phil: Who is your very best friend?
Jintz: You are.
Phil: I’m gonna help you mend your broken legs.
Jintz: Ahhh…

Jintz: So does this mean although I’m too keen
And not really right,
You want to care and will be there
To tuck me in at night?
Phil: Well, I’ll always be there, Jinty!

Jintz: The other birds laugh and say that I’m daft and I am,
Phil: You’re not!
Jintz: I am!


Jintz: They tease me a lot and call me a clot and I am,
Phil: You’re not!
Jintz: I am!


Phil: Look, Jinty?
Jintz: Yes?
Phil: Nothing that you can say
Will change how I feel today:
I know that we’ll never part;
Now hear what I’m saying, Jinty?
Jintz: Yes?
Phil: Who is your very best friend?
Jintz: You are.
Phil: I’m gonna help you mend your broken legs.

[Spoken]
Jintz: Thank you. ‘Cos I’ve got broken legs, haven’t I?
Phil: Yes, I know, but I’m going to help you mend them.
Jintz: You, you will do it, won’t you. You’ll help me?
Phil: Of course.
Jintz: ‘Cos you love me, don’t you?
Phil: We all love you, Jinty.
Jintz: How, how, how much do you love me?
Phil: Ooh… this much!
Jintz: As much as that?
Phil: Yeah.
Jintz: Ahhh… my broken heart.


http://falconryforum.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=126709&stc=1&d=1332808299

Got to give it to you Tony you've put a lot of time and effort into that post, shame you cant run a thread on your own Falconry in the field with the same dedication??

I find it a bit worrying how you can recite the lyrics of Keith Harris and Orville's song off the cuff like that:shock:???

Actually its just dawned on me, your early influences wasn't Ray Turner, Blaine or even Salvin as you would like us all to think but bloody Orville and Keith Harris instead!!!! pmsl

I can just picture you Tony singing into the hairbrush in front of the mirror, when you obviously still had hair I hasten to add, word for word to this song!:lol:

I now understand when folk mention its is been a bit of a pantomime when they have been out in the field with you and your Peregrine/Barbary Hybrid.... LOL

You still haven't answered the questions put to you in Nicks post No.79:roll:

Little Joe
27-03-2012, 03:28 PM
Good lawd!

No matter the landscape, the wind strength, the severity of precipitation, enticement of easy quarry, etc. A falcon will come down to any lure its been trained to instantly, be it Slazenger, Dunlop or Pirelli, the only requirements are visual contact and appetite.

Rgds, Jannes

Brian Sullivan
27-03-2012, 03:38 PM
Good lawd!

No matter the landscape, the wind strength, the severity of precipitation, enticement of easy quarry, etc. A falcon will come down to any lure its been trained to instantly, be it Slazenger, Dunlop or Pirelli, the only requirements are visual contact and appetite.

Rgds, Jannes

In other words the Falcon has been "trained" to come to the lure and not enticed with some big old Frozen Duck or the case here in the US a Pigeon on a casting reel. Train your Falcons! ..:rolleyes:

Greg
27-03-2012, 03:57 PM
I've been itching to ask you Greg about the Tennis ball lure:goodman:
Do you think its the way your serve the Tennis ball Lure that makes it more enticing or does it actually improve the Falcons back swing?:-D
Lastly what Tennis ball do you recommend Slazenger or Dunlop they both have different bounce qualities important if one drops it out of one bag me thinks pmsl:lol:
Tennis ball lure indeed, whatever will they think of next:roll:


I'm quite sure I've already mentioned that half a Tennis ball doesn't bounce Phil I thought you might at least have worked that one out! You should try it you might even like it! They swing a lot better than a traditional lure! As to asking people to answer questions there are still an awful lot that you have failed to answer but you will not draw me on that one, not yet at least!
By the way I corrected the spelling in the quote of your post! (qualities)

The truth is out there and coming home to roost!

Little Joe
27-03-2012, 04:03 PM
In other words the Falcon has been "trained" to come to the lure and not enticed with some big old Frozen Duck or the case here in the US a Pigeon on a casting reel. Train your Falcons! ..:rolleyes:

Yes Sir! I chose every word in that post carefully. Although, I'd never use a frozen thing. Where I am its perfectly acceptable and 100 times more effective to have it warm and flapping on a string. I don't condone it, but that's how it is.

Enticement required, means training lacking, or careless weight management. In my humbe opinion.

Rgds,

Cocky Joe! ;-)

CloakDaggerTiercel
27-03-2012, 05:09 PM
[QUOTE=Judd Casper;1846266]Nick if I'm the buffalo QUOTE]

You're right there's probably a few chops on you too:D
Oh no the indians were much worse. If they caught you you got buried up tour neck in sand for the redtails and coyotes to feast on :D

Judd Casper
27-03-2012, 07:43 PM
[QUOTE=Judd Casper;1846266]Nick if I'm the buffalo QUOTE]

You're right there's probably a few chops on you too:D
Oh no the indians were much worse. If they caught you you got buried up tour neck in sand for the redtails and coyotes to feast on :DJesus is that Nick even more tripe.:oops:

Brian Sullivan
27-03-2012, 08:08 PM
It is amazing that each new generation thinks they reinvented the wheel of Falconry!

There has been the modern technology innovations like (Telemetry), (Balloons, Kites, model Airplane), synthetic materials like (Astro Turf) (Gortex braces), (Digital Scales) Cars, etc..

BUT, all the ways to train, fly, and hunt Falcons has been done on a higher Plateau then most could ever imagine. Flying wild hacked Eyass's, Passager's, Haggards, with using high numbers Falcons instead of one guy flying one Hawk. There were establishments, clubs, groups on the highest scale for not only refined Waiting on flights, but also pursuit flights from the fist. Some the same Falcons were used for both. These groups employed pro's to train the Falcons and Dogs for waiting on flights.

If you think that sloppy Falconry with sloppy ways to train, fly, hunt, or call back your Falcon rethinking your program and striving just a little higher and put a little more effort into making your Falconry it may just become more of an "Art"?

BenBamber
27-03-2012, 08:12 PM
could someone post a pictue of a tennis ball lure as i am interested as to what they look like and how the work
cheers Ben

HawkMom
27-03-2012, 08:26 PM
I use rubber lures, similar to the designs by Nick Fox. See how I make them here: www.internationalfalconryacademy.blogspot.com Scroll down to older posts.

Greg
27-03-2012, 09:19 PM
could someone post a pictue of a tennis ball lure as i am interested as to what they look like and how the work
cheers Ben

This is a very rough drawing but you should get the idea. Half a tennis ball cut a cross in the top for the line to pass through then tie a slip knotted loop on the end (not too thin a line) the meat wings feathers or what ever you decide are put in the loop then the loop pulled tight, it is then drawn up inside the tennis ball!

This is a very rough drawing but you should get the idea. Half a tennis ball cut a cross in the top for the line to pass through then tie a slip knotted loop on the end (not too thin a line) the meat wings feathers or what ever you decide are put in the loop then the loop pulled tight, it is then drawn up inside the tennis ball!

hit the button too quick and forgot the drawing!

Tony James
28-03-2012, 12:05 AM
This is a very rough drawing but you should get the idea. Half a tennis ball cut a cross in the top for the line to pass through then tie a slip knotted loop on the end (not too thin a line) the meat wings feathers or what ever you decide are put in the loop then the loop pulled tight, it is then drawn up inside the tennis ball!



hit the button too quick and forgot the drawing!

Is that a giant jellyfish, eating a black girl in a red bikini?:lol:

Brian Sullivan
28-03-2012, 05:23 AM
Is that a giant jellyfish, eating a black girl in a red bikini?:lol:

I was thinking the same thing!

SmallPeregrine
28-03-2012, 08:22 AM
could someone post a pictue of a tennis ball lure as i am interested as to what they look like and how the work
cheers Ben
I've found some festive Tennis ball lure on the net and also some matching ear warmers too for when its really cold

TomOlivia
28-03-2012, 08:41 AM
Quality entertainment!!!

Last time I was so entertained was when I went to see Coldplay at the Perth Dome but that cost me $200! Keep it coming boys...excellent:lol:

Greg
28-03-2012, 03:46 PM
Is that a giant jellyfish, eating a black girl in a red bikini?:lol:

Well I did say it was very rough!

I've found some festive Tennis ball lure on the net and also some matching ear warmers too for when its really cold

What do you mean ear warmers? They look like the head set for my telemetry!

SmallPeregrine
28-03-2012, 03:52 PM
This is a very rough drawing but you should get the idea. Half a tennis ball cut a cross in the top for the line to pass through then tie a slip knotted loop on the end (not too thin a line) the meat wings feathers or what ever you decide are put in the loop then the loop pulled tight, it is then drawn up inside the tennis ball!



hit the button too quick and forgot the drawing!

I cant see the advantages of using a Tennis ball for a lure, is it aerodynamics, colour representing DOC's, the individual Falconers affinity with Tennis or trying to be original:roll:
I always thought the Lure had to at least represent the quarry you were hunting with the particular Hawk, Falcon or Eagle:rolleyes:

Greg
28-03-2012, 04:07 PM
I cant see the advantages of using a Tennis ball for a lure, is it aerodynamics, colour representing DOC's, the individual Falconers affinity with Tennis or trying to be original:roll:
I always thought the Lure had to at least represent the quarry you were hunting with the particular Hawk, Falcon or Eagle:rolleyes:

Yes it is aerodynamic and is easy to swing even in a high wind. There really is no reason why it needs to represent the chosen quarry, after all Goshawks are flown to the fist and a glove really doesn't look anything like a pheasant! I've only used it on the smaller falcons up to the size of a Gyr X Peregrine I have friends in the US that have used them for many years and all their birds have turned out to be very successful hunter! As to the colour of a chick the falconers in question never use them so the falcons would not recognize one. If you don't like the idea that's fine I must say I thought it strange when I first saw it in use but it works really well with the smaller birds is clean and easy to carry in a pocket. Also being small it is easy to carry a spare one for any emergency that arises!

SmallPeregrine
28-03-2012, 04:46 PM
Yes it is aerodynamic and is easy to swing even in a high wind. There really is no reason why it needs to represent the chosen quarry, after all Goshawks are flown to the fist and a glove really doesn't look anything like a pheasant! If you don't like the idea that's fine I must say I thought it strange when I first saw it in use but it works really well with the smaller birds is clean and easy to carry in a pocket. Also being small it is easy to carry a spare one for any emergency that arises!
Interesting theory of yours Greg that lures don't need to represent quarry.
Dead quarry was always used at one time as lures.
It wasn't until 21st century that leather padded lures (which Falconers always tied the wings of the quarry they were hunting) superseded the natural dead lures:idea:
What I would be wary about using tennis balls and such if any over eager Falcon digested any of the Fibers or rubber from the Tennis ball, the Falcon could suffer from Toxic poisoning etc:!:
Most of the short wingers I know rarely fly their Gos's to the fist opting to recall to the dead lures or dummy rabbit lures

Brian Sullivan
28-03-2012, 05:04 PM
Dead quarry was always used at one time as lures.
It wasn't until 21st century that leather padded lures (which Falconers always tied the wings of the quarry they were hunting) superseded the natural dead lures:idea:


Excuse me! Re-read your history on Falconry. Man made lures with and without wings have been used for at least a 1000 years! Do you want me to name the Countries for you and the books and plates that show them? :rolleyes:

SmallPeregrine
28-03-2012, 05:14 PM
Dead quarry was always used at one time as lures.
It wasn't until 21st century that leather padded lures (which Falconers always tied the wings of the quarry they were hunting) superseded the natural dead lures:idea:


Excuse me! Re-read your history on Falconry. Man made lures with and without wings have been used for at least a 1000 years! Do you want me to name the Countries for you and the books and plates that show them? :rolleyes:
You mean dead Birds or wings on a lure line and wooden stick Brian yeah but surely not Tennis balls and moulded rubber objects on a lure line and wooden stick:shock:???
Glad you sharpened up on the spelling:rolleyes:

Tony James
28-03-2012, 05:21 PM
Interesting theory of yours Greg that lures don't need to represent quarry.
Dead quarry was always used at one time as lures.
It wasn't until 21st century that leather padded lures (which Falconers always tied the wings of the quarry they were hunting) superseded the natural dead lures:idea:
What I would be wary about using tennis balls and such if any over eager Falcon digested any of the Fibers or rubber from the Tennis ball, the Falcon could suffer from Toxic poisoning etc:!:
Most of the short wingers I know rarely fly their Gos's to the fist opting to recall to the dead lures or dummy rabbit lures

Phil,

I'm afraid you're wrong.
Traditionally, the most commonly used lures were made by tying a pair of preserved wings together. A natural dead lure has almost no place in our historical accounts, for obvious reasons.

Tony.

SmallPeregrine
28-03-2012, 05:41 PM
Phil,

I'm afraid you're wrong.
Traditionally, the most commonly used lures were made by tying a pair of preserved wings together. A natural dead lure has almost no place in our history, for obvious reasons.

Tony.
You mean dead Birds or wings on a lure line and wooden stick Tony, hardly artificial compared to Tennis balls, leather pads and molded rubber objects on a lure line tied to a wooden stick or a roach pole now is it:rolleyes:
Tony I think your real prejudice against dead lures is probably down to lack of quarry going into your bag due to your low kill ratio on a week to week basis:roll:.
Theres nothing more natural than bringing your Falcon down from a failed flush or knock down to a dead pheasant, Partridge or duck from the day before:idea:

Greg
28-03-2012, 05:49 PM
Interesting theory of yours Greg that lures don't need to represent quarry.
Dead quarry was always used at one time as lures.
It wasn't until 21st century that leather padded lures (which Falconers always tied the wings of the quarry they were hunting) superseded the natural dead lures:idea:
What I would be wary about using tennis balls and such if any over eager Falcon digested any of the Fibers or rubber from the Tennis ball, the Falcon could suffer from Toxic poisoning etc:!:
Most of the short wingers I know rarely fly their Gos's to the fist opting to recall to the dead lures or dummy rabbit lures

Nothing to do with a theory just observation over a good number of years!

Brian Sullivan
28-03-2012, 05:55 PM
You mean dead Birds or wings on a lure line and wooden stick Brian yeah but surely not Tennis balls and moulded rubber objects on a lure line and wooden stick:shock:???
Glad you sharpened up on the spelling:rolleyes:

OK MONKEY MAN, Here is plate of a lure from 1493 from Austria. If you want to see about another 100 more of these with and with out wings from the last 1000 years just ask.

It does resemble the tennis ball!

Banana's it did not load the first time.:D

Tony James
28-03-2012, 05:57 PM
You mean dead Birds or wings on a lure line and wooden stick Tony, hardly artificial compared to Tennis balls, leather pads and molded rubber objects on a lure line tied to a wooden stick or a roach pole now is it:rolleyes:
Tony I think your real prejudice against dead lures is probably down to lack of quarry going into your bag due to your low kill ratio on a week to week basis:roll:.
Theres nothing more natural than bringing your Falcon down from a failed flush or knock down to a dead pheasant, Partridge or duck from the day before:idea:

Phil,

I won't waste too much time trying to talk sense with you, but you might want to visit a library, or maybe a museum.
It won't take you long to find examples of artificial lures, with or without wings, dating back centuries (some of which have no resemblance at all to quarry species).
What will take a little longer, will be your search for references to dead lures. As I said, the reasons why are obvious.

Tony.

PS My little falcon took 45 head of game the season before last, and I remember you got agitated about that. Any particular reason? Surely you can't be jealous of such modest scores?

SmallPeregrine
28-03-2012, 05:57 PM
Nothing to do with a theory just observation over a good number of years!
I still think no Falconer will serve a tennis ball quicker than Fedderer though Greg:box:

Tony James
28-03-2012, 06:01 PM
Of course some falconers call their falcons directly to their outstretched finger.

http://falconryforum.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=126764&stc=1&d=1332957675

OK MONKEY MAN, Here is plate of a lure from 1493 from Austria. If you want to see about another 100 more of these with and with out wings from the last 1000 years just ask.

It does resemble the tennis ball!

Banana's it did not load the first time.:D

To stick with the tennis terminology.......



....... GAME, SET, AND MATCH:lol::lol::lol:

SmallPeregrine
28-03-2012, 06:06 PM
Phil,

I won't waste too much time trying to talk sense with you, but you might want to visit a library, or maybe a museum.
It won't take you long to find examples of artificial lures, with or without wings, dating back centuries (some of which have no resemblance at all to quarry species).
What will take a little longer, will be your search for references to dead lures. As I said, the reasons why are obvious.

Tony.

PS My little falcon took 45 head of game the season before last, and I remember you got about that. Any particular reason? Surely you can't be jealous of such modest scores?
Obvious Tony, to date you never gave any examples that swung lures are better than Dead carcasses:idea:.
Your original plaintiff was that dead carcasses are disease ridden unlike the leather padded lures with mummified wings attached to them that are rarely cleaned over the entire season:rolleyes:
As I say Tony for your end of season bag counts, we only have your word about that:rolleyes:

Greg
28-03-2012, 06:09 PM
I still think no Falconer will serve a tennis ball quicker than Fedderer though Greg:box:

Phil,
Just to put you on the right track with your falconry!
You serve the quarry for your bird and you recall your bird to a lure! In this case the lure just happens to be made from half a tennis ball!

To recap
Serve QUARRY!
Recall LURE!

Tony James
28-03-2012, 06:13 PM
Obvious Tony, to date you never gave any examples that swung lures are better than Dead carcasses:idea:.
Your original plaintiff was that dead carcasses are disease ridden unlike the leather padded lures with mummified wings attached to them that are rarely cleaned over the entire season:rolleyes:
As I say Tony for your end of season bag counts, we only have your word about that:rolleyes:

Thankfully Monkey Boy, those people I give two hoots about wouldn't doubt it, despite not having broadcast my 'stats sheet' to verify it:yawinkle:

SmallPeregrine
28-03-2012, 06:13 PM
OK MONKEY MAN, Here is plate of a lure from 1493 from Austria. If you want to see about another 100 more of these with and with out wings from the last 1000 years just ask.

It does resemble the tennis ball!

Banana's it did not load the first time.:D
No wonder they lost all them birds with lures like that, it looks like something that should hang off a kilt than off a Falconers bag:roll:.
Pity you weren't around then Brian you could of supplied them all with your super Superior Peregrines than the pitiful under performing wild stock:lol:

SmallPeregrine
28-03-2012, 06:15 PM
Thankfully Monkey Boy, those people I give two hoots about wouldn't doubt it, despite not having broadcast my 'stats sheet' to verify it:yawinkle:
Your obviously refering to yourself and your alter egos than:lol:

Tony James
28-03-2012, 06:19 PM
Your obviously refering to yourself and your alter egos than:lol:

No. What I'm saying is that your overpowering feelings of inadequacy are of no relevance to me.
Carry on talking like a fool, I find it amusing:lol:

SmallPeregrine
28-03-2012, 06:37 PM
No. What I'm saying is that your overpowering feelings of inadequacy are of no relevance to me.
Carry on talking like a fool, I find it amusing:lol:
Couldn't help notice TJ but the Familiarities you have with ET is uncanny
Sorry if I have got the names mixed but I cant tell them apart:lol:
Tony James phone home!
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f346/smallperegrine/Mad%20eye/66324_464151790664_95847325664_5768430_7974364_n-2.jpg

Greg
28-03-2012, 06:44 PM
Don't you just love second hand jokes!

Tony James
28-03-2012, 06:51 PM
Couldn't help notice TJ but the Familiarities you have with ET is uncanny
Sorry if I have got the names mixed but I cant tell them apart:lol:
Tony James phone home!
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f346/smallperegrine/Mad%20eye/66324_464151790664_95847325664_5768430_7974364_n-2.jpg

Very clever Phil. And no, don't worry, you've got the names the right way round:yawinkle:

Brian Sullivan
28-03-2012, 06:53 PM
No wonder they lost all them birds with lures like that, it looks like something that should hang off a kilt than off a Falconers bag:roll:.
Pity you weren't around then Brian you could of supplied them all with your super Superior Peregrines than the pitiful under performing wild stock:lol:

No one said there is not good Peregrine in the wild, but for the most part the one's taken here in our State have not amount into a hill of beans. There are few places where you can find good Peregrines in our State, but most of these locations are closed for take. We are waiting for the passage take to open here, as the Peale's that winter on our coast are very special.

You lack knowledge just shows the reader base how really ignorance you are about most things in Falconry or what is happening in the wild with Peregrines, so again you open up your mouth and make yourself the "Fool".

Catching a few farm raised Partridge/Pheasant with a Peregrine near the ground and at the edge of bushes and then trying to make yourself into something special just gives us all a good laugh. You will never match Tony with his posts as the ET with the one finger will be burned forever into everyone minds!

:lol::lol:

SmallPeregrine
28-03-2012, 06:59 PM
No one said there is not good Peregrine in the wild, but for the most part the one's taken here in our State have not amount into a hill of beans. There are few places where you can find good Peregrines in our State, but most of these locations are closed for take. We are waiting for the passage take to open here, as the Peale's that winter on our coast are very special.

You lack knowledge just shows the reader base how really ignorance you are about most things in Falconry or what is happening in the wild with Peregrines, so again you open up your mouth and make yourself the "Fool".

Catching a few farm raised Partridge/Pheasant with a Peregrine near the ground and at the edge of bushes and then trying to make yourself into something special just gives us all a good laugh. You will never match Tony with his posts as the ET with the one finger will be burned forever into everyone minds!


:lol::lol::lol:

Alf
28-03-2012, 07:12 PM
Isnít the lure just a bridge to call a falcon in?
Does it matter what it looks like or whether or not you place food on it?
If the falcon is conditioned to come into any ungarnished lure surely you could bring it in to any inanimate object as long as the bridge has been made?
Alf.

David Bishop
28-03-2012, 07:14 PM
Isnít the lure just a bridge to call a falcon in?
Does it matter what it looks like or whether or not you place food on it?
If the falcon is conditioned to come into any ungarnished lure surely you could bring it in to any inanimate object as long as the bridge has been made?
Alf.
nice one Alf, a very posiive post, no as funny as some of the previous posts,

Alf
28-03-2012, 07:19 PM
Yep the longwing section does have its draws! :yawinkle: Alf.




nice one Alf, a very posiive post, no as funny as some of the previous posts,

Greg
28-03-2012, 07:30 PM
Isn’t the lure just a bridge to call a falcon in?
Does it matter what it looks like or whether or not you place food on it?
If the falcon is conditioned to come into any ungarnished lure surely you could bring it in to any inanimate object as long as the bridge has been made?
Alf.

I agree 100% that's what I've been saying all along!
I was flying a F Lanner near Manchester back in the 70's, This dam kid watched me flying her to the lure and thought it looked like fun! He then started throwing his action man up in the air catching it then doing it again! I told him to stop but all I got was a mouthful of abuse! Next thing I know my Lanner is flying off with his action man dangling below the her! She returned about 5 min later empty footed at which the snotty nosed little brat started shouting he would get his dad on me! I wish I'd had a good camera on me it would have looked like a shot from an old science fiction film!
OK Phil lets hear all your great jokes about me stealing a poor little lads toy!

CloakDaggerTiercel
28-03-2012, 07:31 PM
Isnít the lure just a bridge to call a falcon in?
Does it matter what it looks like or whether or not you place food on it?
If the falcon is conditioned to come into any ungarnished lure surely you could bring it in to any inanimate object as long as the bridge has been made?
Alf.

Finally some sanity Alf.
I think that was my basic take on all this before the madness started.
A falcon conditioned to be recalled to anything obediently has been conditioned the right way.
What is comes to is of very little importance to me.

So long as it returns smartly.

Nick

Matt King
28-03-2012, 07:38 PM
Nothing else I can really add, other than personaly I call my bird down to an ungarnished leather pad after an unsuccessful flight. If I have to use a carcass I know hes overweight!!!

SmallPeregrine
28-03-2012, 07:44 PM
I agree 100% that's what I've been saying all along!
I was flying a F Lanner near Manchester back in the 70's, This dam kid watched me flying her to the lure and thought it looked like fun! He then started throwing his action man up in the air catching it then doing it again! I told him to stop but all I got was a mouthful of abuse! Next thing I know my Lanner is flying off with his action man dangling below the her! She returned about 5 min later empty footed at which the snotty nosed little brat started shouting he would get his dad on me! I wish I'd had a good camera on me it would have looked like a shot from an old science fiction film!
OK Phil lets hear all your great jokes about me stealing a poor little lads toy!
Maybes your Lanner was suffering from Little mans syndrome:lol:

David Bishop
28-03-2012, 07:44 PM
Nothing else I can really add, other than personaly I call my bird down to an ungarnished leather pad after an unsuccessful flight. If I have to use a carcass I know hes overweight!!!
Matt i do the same, the only time i garnish the lure is when i exchange it for quarry after he has eaten the head and neck.

Alf
28-03-2012, 08:33 PM
Nick possibly with the introduction of the kite the initial grounding of teaching the falcon that the lure is only a bridge has somehow been overlooked?
Basic kite work from what I can remember involves two days to a dropped lure then itís hoisted in the air till that bridge is made and is swapped for something perhaps lighter in weight for the kite to lift.
The lure is now detached as stimuli to call in; itís changed to stimuli to go get.
Once kite training has reached its objective is lure work started again or do most just carry on thinking or knowing the hawk knows what a lure is?
Possibly once the hawk comes off the kite if it hasnít already been served from it the next step is to go out and serve regardless of whether or not the hawk has been conditioned to the drop lure and I think this is possibly why some hawks need the tossed full carcass to bring them in they have no bridge to the lure and who is producing it they have been too busy looking outwards.
Traditional falconry the lure is used from day one each and every day until the hawk is entered the hawk has made the bridge it knows no other, food has been presented on a lure hawk comes in drops on lure and is rewarded with the food on the lure once that bridge has been made itís a simple matter then to place no food on the lure and when the hawk thatís been conditioned to think there will be food on the lure to then go in quick and offer food for the pick up on the glove doing this twice or even three times is enough to form a bridge were the hawk now sees the lure as a stepping stone to being fed .
Land on empty lure feed time!
Lure choice by this time is immaterial you could throw a teabag on a piece of string if it was strong enough to take what comes as long as the bridge has been made.

Having to throw out a carcass each and every time will bring your falcon in as will any lure of any description if you have conditioned your hawk to the bridge.
Alf.




Finally some sanity Alf.
I think that was my basic take on all this before the madness started.
A falcon conditioned to be recalled to anything obediently has been conditioned the right way.
What is comes to is of very little importance to me.

So long as it returns smartly.

Nick

Greg
28-03-2012, 09:08 PM
[QUOTE=SmallPeregrine;1847185]Maybes your Lanner was suffering from Little mans syndrome:lol:[/QUOT
Well I am pleasantly surprised, I had expected you to come up with some embellishment or imagined facts to add to your post as you normally do! Maybe you are searching the net for a picture or simply trying to come up with funny or clever! You might manage the first two!

TomOlivia
28-03-2012, 10:25 PM
It is clearly difficult for some to simply accept that we choose different methods!!! One is not necessarily better than the other, unless there are some stats that show a particular method is a quicker way to lose a hawk.

I've never lost any hawk, except for one that would have been difficult in any circumstances as it had previously spent 10 weeks out and was somewhat independent.

I've used artificial lures of different kinds, with and without wings, rubber tubing, socks etc and I've also used carcasses. They all get the hawk back and the use of any of them doesn't mean I've lost control (although of course I have on occasions for different reasons....most often wild Peregrines) or haven't 'trained' them properly.

Use what works for you and stick with it!

Whatever....at least Ben got his moneys worth from the question and a few laughs into the bargain:lol:

Regards, Michael.

Brian Sullivan
28-03-2012, 10:31 PM
It is clearly difficult for some to simply accept that we choose different methods!!! One is not necessarily better than the other, unless there are some stats that show a particular method is a quicker way to lose a hawk.

I've never lost any hawk, except for one that would have been difficult in any circumstances as it had previously spent 10 weeks out and was somewhat independent.

I've used artificial lures of different kinds, with and without wings, rubber tubing, socks etc and I've also used carcasses. They all get the hawk back and the use of any of them doesn't mean I've lost control (although of course I have on occasions for different reasons....most often wild Peregrines) or haven't 'trained' them properly.

Use what works for you and stick with it!

Whatever....at least Ben got his moneys worth from the question and a few laughs into the bargain:lol:

Regards, Michael.

This coming season I am going to toss away my leather lure and going to go with everyone is tell me, I am going to freeze a glob of Tennis Balls together and put some wings on it! :lol::lol:

TomOlivia
28-03-2012, 10:37 PM
This coming season I am going to toss away my leather lure and going to go with everyone is tell me, I am going to freeze a glob of Tennis Balls together and put some wings on it! :lol:

I'm gonna get myself one of those tennis ball launcher thingys and forget about hunting....at least if the falcon gets sloppy I could aim it into the net and trap it back:lol::lol::lol:

Brian Sullivan
28-03-2012, 10:37 PM
This coming season I am going to toss away my leather lure and going to go with everyone is telling me, I am going to freeze a glob of Tennis Balls together and put some wings on it! :lol::lol:

Also, going to consult with Phil to get my finger in that right position for my Ego shots.:lol:

Greg
28-03-2012, 11:13 PM
This coming season I am going to toss away my leather lure and going to go with everyone is tell me, I am going to freeze a glob of Tennis Balls together and put some wings on it! :lol::lol:

Excellent Brian, have a blast! By the way I never said I don't use feathers the half tennis ball just holds them all together!

Loch Lomond
28-03-2012, 11:55 PM
Excellent Brian, have a blast! By the way I never said I don't use feathers the half tennis ball just holds them all together!

I was going to offer you a fiver for your sick squid, :lol:

Seriously, I think, as has been said many times before, it is the conditioning and training of the bird that makes it return to an ungarnished lure, no matter what it is made of, whereupon it will receive a small reward, on the glove after a step up, then another slip. Anyone that has to constantly use imitation quarry has not conditioned the bird properly, and is using imitation quarry to "fool" the bird into a recall. In my humble opinion, the feathered lure should only be used in the initial stages of training to "teach" the bird that those feathers equate to a food reward.

Brian Sullivan
29-03-2012, 01:46 AM
I can think of one guy that could have learned a lot from this Falconer back in the day. Oh I forgot, his bird never misses on wild Quarry, so no lure is necessary.

Judd Casper
29-03-2012, 07:22 AM
Isnít the lure just a bridge to call a falcon in?
Does it matter what it looks like or whether or not you place food on it?
If the falcon is conditioned to come into any ungarnished lure surely you could bring it in to any inanimate object as long as the bridge has been made?
Alf.Its true Alf the lure is a bridge to bring the falcon in but it can all to easily be broken by sloppy practices.....you only have to read Nick's post on here about the hawk he acquired from Greg to see how easy it can be broken and I have seen this with way to many falcons over the years.Once you start to use a carcass that's normally it and you have to continue this practice.Its not the path I'd take to go down with a new hawk and I definitely wouldn't be advising someone new to game hawking to take either.


ATB
Sam

Arran
29-03-2012, 11:34 AM
I guess everyone does what works for them & there is arguements for different methods. For any beginner I would strongly advise listening to someone who's birds are reliable ,consistant & without vices .The same few falconers year in year out have hawks that perform to high levels & shine in the field -those are the ones to learn from . Many others talk a great flight but their hawks constantly fail to live up to the hype when under scrutiny .For what its worth I use both artificial lures & natural ones under certain criterior .On a day to day basis I prefer an artificial lure & expect my hawks no matter how high they fly & how much quarry they catch to respond to it immediatley . The lure is the link that keeps everything in control & there may just be a time when instant obedience can mean the difference between life or death for the hawk . Also ignorance of a lure can be the symtoms of other problems of far greater significance . The one occasion I really prefer a natural lure is on the very rare occasions I fail to serve the hawk .I regard this as a big failure on my part so I throw out the dead bird & treat it as I would a kill .I allow the hawk to plume & eat some before lifting her . By this way I feel I've gone a little way to recoverring the loss of trust in me as the game provider & she has got reward for waiting on .I have several times seen people who use only dead lures 'lose' the carcase by throwing into cover , water or whatever & as the hawk is only used to that would then ignore artificial or improvised lures . If a hawk has been allowed to get into very high condition or has been spooked someone using artificial can always have the fallback of a dead bird but the same does not apply if it is a carcase that is already being ignored by the falcon . I remember one selfish falconer at a field meet whose Peregrine ignored the first of 3 cock Pheasants in a grass strip on an airfield .He was asked by the fieldmaster to bring down his hawk so someone else could fly the remaining two . He pulled out a small ungarnished leather lure & proceeded to swing it half heartedly .He then said she wouldn't come down & flushed the next & then the final one .The falcon refused the first two & started to chase the third before pulling off !!! At that point he threw out his dead Partridge & lo & behold down came his hawk !!! I have seen hawks remount despite a whole dead pigeon being thrown to them but of course they are never overweight nor badly trained , then in the future the owner bemoans his hawk getting lost or going sitting on poles .Cheers Ant

Alf
29-03-2012, 04:06 PM
Ant surly there is no reason why a falcon so conditioned a lure that a carcass needs ever to be implemented?
If you show or throw out a carcass you have caused a chain of events thatís hard to rectify.
Guaranteed the hawks is always going to favour the carcass? Alf.





I guess everyone does what works for them & there is arguements for different methods. For any beginner I would strongly advise listening to someone who's birds are reliable ,consistant & without vices .The same few falconers year in year out have hawks that perform to high levels & shine in the field -those are the ones to learn from . Many others talk a great flight but their hawks constantly fail to live up to the hype when under scrutiny .For what its worth I use both artificial lures & natural ones under certain criterior .On a day to day basis I prefer an artificial lure & expect my hawks no matter how high they fly & how much quarry they catch to respond to it immediatley . The lure is the link that keeps everything in control & there may just be a time when instant obedience can mean the difference between life or death for the hawk . Also ignorance of a lure can be the symtoms of other problems of far greater significance . The one occasion I really prefer a natural lure is on the very rare occasions I fail to serve the hawk .I regard this as a big failure on my part so I throw out the dead bird & treat it as I would a kill .I allow the hawk to plume & eat some before lifting her . By this way I feel I've gone a little way to recoverring the loss of trust in me as the game provider & she has got reward for waiting on .I have several times seen people who use only dead lures 'lose' the carcase by throwing into cover , water or whatever & as the hawk is only used to that would then ignore artificial or improvised lures . If a hawk has been allowed to get into very high condition or has been spooked someone using artificial can always have the fallback of a dead bird but the same does not apply if it is a carcase that is already being ignored by the falcon . I remember one selfish falconer at a field meet whose Peregrine ignored the first of 3 cock Pheasants in a grass strip on an airfield .He was asked by the fieldmaster to bring down his hawk so someone else could fly the remaining two . He pulled out a small ungarnished leather lure & proceeded to swing it half heartedly .He then said she wouldn't come down & flushed the next & then the final one .The falcon refused the first two & started to chase the third before pulling off !!! At that point he threw out his dead Partridge & lo & behold down came his hawk !!! I have seen hawks remount despite a whole dead pigeon being thrown to them but of course they are never overweight nor badly trained , then in the future the owner bemoans his hawk getting lost or going sitting on poles .Cheers Ant

Exactly Sam!
There had to be a reason in the first place a carcass was shown? If itís never seen a carcass thrown out it will never miss one. Alf.





Its true Alf the lure is a bridge to bring the falcon in but it can all to easily be broken by sloppy practices.....you only have to read Nick's post on here about the hawk he acquired from Greg to see how easy it can be broken and I have seen this with way to many falcons over the years.Once you start to use a carcass that's normally it and you have to continue this practice.Its not the path I'd take to go down with a new hawk and I definitely wouldn't be advising someone new to game hawking to take either.


ATB
Sam

Little Joe
29-03-2012, 04:17 PM
This is a very rough drawing but you should get the idea. Half a tennis ball cut a cross in the top for the line to pass through then tie a slip knotted loop on the end (not too thin a line) the meat wings feathers or what ever you decide are put in the loop then the loop pulled tight, it is then drawn up inside the tennis ball!



hit the button too quick and forgot the drawing!

Certainly nr2 will only be suitable for a tiercel Greg?

Banter aside, have you guys considered the Arab training method for experienced passagers and haggards? It kind of puts the lure debate into perspective I think.

They work from a live baggy backwards to a lure while on the creance.

You have a bird that kills stuff. So start with what it knows, then gradually progress to a dry pair of wings for recall.

Or you have a bird that might be afraid to kill big things, then gradually progress from a garnished tennis ball to a dead duck and then a live one.

Either way, you want the least attractive item to be a reliable lure!

Rgds,
Jannes

Judd Casper
29-03-2012, 04:59 PM
Ant surly there is no reason why a falcon so conditioned a lure that a carcass needs ever to be implemented?
If you show or throw out a carcass you have caused a chain of events thatís hard to rectify.
Guaranteed the hawks is always going to favour the carcass? Alf.







Exactly Sam!
There had to be a reason in the first place a carcass was shown? If itís never seen a carcass thrown out it will never miss one. Alf.Hi Alf I tend use a carcass in the same instance as Ant when my falcons at pitch and the flight has gone belly up.I like to reward her with something better for the effort she has put in, as she's done her part its been myself or maybe the dog that has failed and I believe it strengthens the bond between us as she is allowed time on the carcass as she would be allowed time on a kill.This only happens maybe a handful of times a season at most and normally when flying slippery pheasants,and the lure is used at all other times and the bridge remains unbroken.



ATB
Sam

Little Joe
29-03-2012, 05:16 PM
Hi Alf I tend use a carcass in the same instance as Ant when my falcons at pitch and the flight has gone belly up.I like to reward her with something better for the effort she has put in, as she's done her part its been myself or maybe the dog that has failed and I believe it strengthens the bond between us as she is allowed time on the carcass as she would be allowed time on a kill.This only happens maybe a handful of times a season at most and normally when flying slippery pheasants,and the lure is used at all other times and the bridge remains unbroken.



ATB
Sam

Everytime you offer a carcass, you train the bird to ignore the lure next time!

The recall tool is not the reward, the feeding is.

Rgds,
Jannes

Alf
29-03-2012, 05:39 PM
Sam I can understand youíre reasoning your thinking like a human not sure how the falcon would see this?
If you produce a lure after a failed flush the hawk committing to the stoop missing game the hawks going get the lure if you produce a carcass after a blank no game produced the hawk is given a reward?
Pretty soon the falcons going to want its reward no matter if itís been severed or not?
Alf.




Hi Alf I tend use a carcass in the same instance as Ant when my falcons at pitch and the flight has gone belly up.I like to reward her with something better for the effort she has put in, as she's done her part its been myself or maybe the dog that has failed and I believe it strengthens the bond between us as she is allowed time on the carcass as she would be allowed time on a kill.This only happens maybe a handful of times a season at most and normally when flying slippery pheasants,and the lure is used at all other times and the bridge remains unbroken.



ATB
Sam

CloakDaggerTiercel
29-03-2012, 06:18 PM
Everytime you offer a carcass, you train the bird to ignore the lure next time!

The recall tool is not the reward, the feeding is.

Rgds,
Jannes

Jannes,

Or, every time you offer a carcass you train the bird to come to a lure, if you've never used the artificial version!

But your right the recall tool is just the bridge to a feed or not.

At the risk of being conventional f i get short on pigeon bodies, I often have to tie two wings together as a lure. Obviously the light weight of said item means I then have to tie a string onto this to be safe.

I secure this to a D-ring on my vest, rather risk the 'establishment' tag by attaching it to a lure stick.

Regards,
Nick

Little Joe
29-03-2012, 06:32 PM
Jannes,

Or, every time you offer a carcass you train the bird to come to a lure, if you've never used the artificial version!

But your right the recall tool is just the bridge to a feed or not.

At the risk of being conventional f i get short on pigeon bodies, I often have to tie two wings together as a lure. Obviously the light weight of said item means I then have to tie a string onto this to be safe.

I secure this to a D-ring on my vest, rather risk the 'establishment' tag by attaching it to a lure stick.

Regards,
Nick

Nick,

During training, one does various things, but for a well entered bird and maybe an intermewed one, if it needs something more than its standard creance lure, the training wasn't sufficiently done (often because guys are competetive and hurry things) or the bird is high in weight.

Other factors like check, high winds, etc. Left out of the equation in this case of course.

Maybe I just value discipline more because of my situation. I don't know. But I do know its achievable.

Rgds,
Jannes

Alf
29-03-2012, 06:40 PM
Nick itís no big deal to take out a dead body each time you want to go out remembering to defrost it first!
As most falcons that are used for gamehawing donít get more than one or two flights a day the practise of throwing out a carcass canít be detrimental not like an accipiter with mutable flights.
I guess if you have a freezer full of carcasses itís a simple matter to take one out in time for the hunt and carry it around with you all day.
Lumping around a big Rooster kicking in at over 2lb or a tennis ball, well I think I know which one I would choose?:yawinkle: Alf.





Jannes,

Or, every time you offer a carcass you train the bird to come to a lure, if you've never used the artificial version!

But your right the recall tool is just the bridge to a feed or not.

At the risk of being conventional f i get short on pigeon bodies, I often have to tie two wings together as a lure. Obviously the light weight of said item means I then have to tie a string onto this to be safe.

I secure this to a D-ring on my vest, rather risk the 'establishment' tag by attaching it to a lure stick.

Regards,
Nick

TiercelJim
29-03-2012, 06:40 PM
Sam I can understand youíre reasoning your thinking like a human not sure how the falcon would see this?
If you produce a lure after a failed flush the hawk committing to the stoop missing game the hawks going get the lure if you produce a carcass after a blank no game produced the hawk is given a reward?
Pretty soon the falcons going to want its reward no matter if itís been severed or not?
Alf.
hi alf surely thats what you want? otherwise youd have a lost hawk? wether its a lure,carcass or a kfc chicken wing your hawk should no to come down to you if unsuccesfull,how much reward depends on its effort ?
jim

Alf
29-03-2012, 06:48 PM
Jim a hawk/falcon conditioned to only one thing lure or fist will or should come down for its reward. The reward comes in many forms one more tempting than another if you switch things.
Alf.




hi alf surely thats what you want? otherwise youd have a lost hawk? wether its a lure,carcass or a kfc chicken wing your hawk should no to come down to you if unsuccesfull,how much reward depends on its effort ?
jim

Jim whatís more tempting to a falcon in the air a empty lure or a full carcass?
Well that depends on how you have conditioned your hawk to think?
Remembering the lure is only a bridge to the reward.
You donít have to reward a hawk /falcon on a lure/ carcass the reward can be given on the fist the lure should only be the bridge to the reward. Alf.

CloakDaggerTiercel
29-03-2012, 07:03 PM
Nick,


Maybe I just value discipline more because of my situation. I don't know. But I do know its achievable.

Rgds,
Jannes

Jannes,

You're right to value discipline, so do I. I've been on field meets where errant hawks ignoring lures, artificial or natural, have disrupted the day.

What i don't get is the implied association between dead lures and indiscipline?

If you want to call skipping the stage of training to an artificial lure as un-discliplined then fine, but we all train our falcons to the lure (of whatever type) .

We must do or we wouldn't get them back:lol:

Nick

Johny
29-03-2012, 07:05 PM
A lure should be small and practical, it has nothing to do with reward. That comes later, proportionately.

This is basic Pavlovian stuff - the dogs need not hear the bells of london so as to see them salivate at the sound.

Alf
29-03-2012, 07:11 PM
Exactly Johny, the lure is not the reward itís the bridge to the reward although you lost me with the bells? :yawinkle: :lol: Alf.




A lure should be small and practical, it has nothing to do with reward. That comes later, proportionately.

This is basic Pavlovian stuff - the dogs need not hear the bells of london so as to see them salivate at the sound.

Johny
29-03-2012, 07:15 PM
Exactly Johny, the lure is not the reward it’s the bridge to the reward although you lost me with the bells? :lol: Alf.

:lol:

Lost myself with the bells Alf :lol:, what was I saying again? am I on the right thread? :lol:

Alf
29-03-2012, 07:26 PM
Jonny I had a Pavlovian experience the other night it was the best desert I have ever tasted! :yawinkle:
Alf.




:lol:

Lost myself with the bells Alf :lol:, what was I saying again? am I on the right thread? :lol:

TiercelJim
29-03-2012, 07:26 PM
Jim a hawk/falcon conditioned to only one thing lure or fist will or should come down for its reward. The reward comes in many forms one more tempting than another if you switch things.
Alf.






Jim whatís more tempting to a falcon in the air a empty lure or a full carcass?
Well that depends on how you have conditioned your hawk to think?
Remembering the lure is only a bridge to the reward.
You donít have to reward a hawk /falcon on a lure/ carcass the reward can be given on the fist the lure should only be the bridge to the reward. Alf.

exactly on the last sentance alf hence using a kfc chicken wing or if none ready a bbq drum stick! people get so technical i have to reread it ten times to see what there saying i cant help but see things in black and white.
atb mate,
jim

Alf
29-03-2012, 07:31 PM
Jim it means the difference of training a hawk to your terms or whether or not youíre giving into the hawkís terms?
Simple really. Alf.




exactly on the last sentance alf hence using a kfc chicken wing or if none ready a bbq drum stick! people get so technical i have to reread it ten times to see what there saying i cant help but see things in black and white.
atb mate,
jim

Johny
29-03-2012, 07:32 PM
Jonny I had a Pavlovian experience the other night it was the best desert I have ever tasted! :yawinkle:
Alf.

What was it Alf, sounds tasty?

Alf
29-03-2012, 07:38 PM
Pavlova is a meringue-based dessert named after the Russian ballet dancer Anna Pavlova. It is a meringue dessert with a crisp crust and soft, light inside.


Close Johny although not close enough it seems? :yawinkle::lol: Alf.




What was it Alf, sounds tasty?

Johny
29-03-2012, 07:42 PM
Close Johny although not close enough it seems? :yawinkle::lol: Alf.

Darn! :lol: It was that Anna bit - it really stumped me :lol:

TerryS
29-03-2012, 08:37 PM
Hello Ben

Back to the original question.

At first when just entering her to the lure - use a leather pad with no wings or anything - just two thirds of the daily ration tied on securely.

Sit with her and let her eat all the food - then she will walk off of the lure in her own time - when she does - jump her up to the fist for the rest of her food.

Don't stand up or walk with her after the pick up - just let her eat the food on the fist and let her become completely settled before you hood her. If you stand or walk with her early on she may try to carry the food on the fist and become upset with you.

Be very careful with her at first, then she will trust you and feel that you are not a threat to rob her.

Don't bother with the wings mate as she will think she still has food on the lure even when the lure is empty - then she will be less likely to want to leave it and jump nicely to your garnished hand.

I think most of the respondents who have kindly replied to your post have forgotten that this is your first Longwing.

I wish you the best of luck.

You will be fine I'm sure.

Regards

Terry

Alf
29-03-2012, 09:07 PM
Of course Nick you have to do whatever it takes to get them back!
In the real world and yes I live in it from time to time in situations where you donít want to maybe be embarrassed by a wayward hawk on a meet you feel responsible for the hawks actions and you need to rectify the hawks actions post haste so the tempting carcass comes out?
I guess this is probably the major cause of changing things around, inevitable suppose? Alf.




Jannes,

You're right to value discipline, so do I. I've been on field meets where errant hawks ignoring lures, artificial or natural, have disrupted the day.

What i don't get is the implied association between dead lures and indiscipline?

If you want to call skipping the stage of training to an artificial lure as un-discliplined then fine, but we all train our falcons to the lure (of whatever type) .

We must do or we wouldn't get them back:lol:

Nick

TomOlivia
29-03-2012, 10:35 PM
I guess everyone does what works for them & there is arguements for different methods. For any beginner I would strongly advise listening to someone who's birds are reliable ,consistant & without vices .The same few falconers year in year out have hawks that perform to high levels & shine in the field -those are the ones to learn from . Many others talk a great flight but their hawks constantly fail to live up to the hype when under scrutiny .For what its worth I use both artificial lures & natural ones under certain criterior .On a day to day basis I prefer an artificial lure & expect my hawks no matter how high they fly & how much quarry they catch to respond to it immediatley . The lure is the link that keeps everything in control & there may just be a time when instant obedience can mean the difference between life or death for the hawk . Also ignorance of a lure can be the symtoms of other problems of far greater significance . The one occasion I really prefer a natural lure is on the very rare occasions I fail to serve the hawk .I regard this as a big failure on my part so I throw out the dead bird & treat it as I would a kill .I allow the hawk to plume & eat some before lifting her . By this way I feel I've gone a little way to recoverring the loss of trust in me as the game provider & she has got reward for waiting on .I have several times seen people who use only dead lures 'lose' the carcase by throwing into cover , water or whatever & as the hawk is only used to that would then ignore artificial or improvised lures . If a hawk has been allowed to get into very high condition or has been spooked someone using artificial can always have the fallback of a dead bird but the same does not apply if it is a carcase that is already being ignored by the falcon . I remember one selfish falconer at a field meet whose Peregrine ignored the first of 3 cock Pheasants in a grass strip on an airfield .He was asked by the fieldmaster to bring down his hawk so someone else could fly the remaining two . He pulled out a small ungarnished leather lure & proceeded to swing it half heartedly .He then said she wouldn't come down & flushed the next & then the final one .The falcon refused the first two & started to chase the third before pulling off !!! At that point he threw out his dead Partridge & lo & behold down came his hawk !!! I have seen hawks remount despite a whole dead pigeon being thrown to them but of course they are never overweight nor badly trained , then in the future the owner bemoans his hawk getting lost or going sitting on poles .Cheers Ant

Antony,

You do exactly as I do with the 'carcass' lure, as does Sam, going by his recent post....but I knew that anyway! If I habitually, or often failed to serve any hawk, I suppose it wouldn't go up too well and it's response would be good to an artificial lure because it would see it so often and the bond would be good.
However, it is my intention (as it is yours and Sam's) to serve any waiting-on gamehawk that has held its side of the bargain, and gone up, and I would say I keep my side of the bargain 99% of the time. On the occasions that they don't kill, I usually use an artificial lure (if I've got one with me:lol:) before they go back up, but if I'm going for a re-flush, obviously I don't. I've found with the 'several flush' flights at ducks, if they don't kill, they are fairly easy to bring down to almost anything as they are tired and have had enough.

Apart from early excursions that young hawks can be prone to, the only other times I've had to recover a hawk with a lure is when a) they've failed to kill but have been well served and b) when something has gone wrong and this has most often been due to wild Peregrines when I'd throw out anything to get my hawk back safely in that circumstance, and if a carcass does it very quickly(it does)...that's what I prefer to use.

Each to his own I suppose but I must admit that the regular use of a carcass usually means that you're going to need one with you at all times.....but so what?

Regards, Michael.

SmallPeregrine
31-03-2012, 04:49 AM
Antony,

You do exactly as I do with the 'carcass' lure, as does Sam, going by his recent post....but I knew that anyway! If I habitually, or often failed to serve any hawk, I suppose it wouldn't go up too well and it's response would be good to an artificial lure because it would see it so often and the bond would be good.
However, it is my intention (as it is yours and Sam's) to serve any waiting-on gamehawk that has held its side of the bargain, and gone up, and I would say I keep my side of the bargain 99% of the time. On the occasions that they don't kill, I usually use an artificial lure (if I've got one with me:lol:) before they go back up, but if I'm going for a re-flush, obviously I don't. I've found with the 'several flush' flights at ducks, if they don't kill, they are fairly easy to bring down to almost anything as they are tired and have had enough.

Apart from early excursions that young hawks can be prone to, the only other times I've had to recover a hawk with a lure is when a) they've failed to kill but have been well served and b) when something has gone wrong and this has most often been due to wild Peregrines when I'd throw out anything to get my hawk back safely in that circumstance, and if a carcass does it very quickly(it does)...that's what I prefer to use.

Each to his own I suppose but I must admit that the regular use of a carcass usually means that you're going to need one with you at all times.....but so what?

Regards, Michael.
Well said Mike as Ive said to TJ artificial lures and dead birds are irreplaceable early days in my training of a Eyass. But when flying a seasoned hawk, killing regular basis a dead carcass has no substitute especially when you fail to flush:idea:
As for your last sentence I don't necessarily agree.
Once you Throw a dead bird doesn't equate to no turning back to a artificial lure or tennis ball.
At times when I have been complacent and forgot to take out a dead bird. Ive flown Jintz and kept my side of the bargain in the flight, flushing the birds on queue and when she has failed to kill, I have borrowed a artificial lure and dropped her with no dramas:idea:
Everyone to there own but experience in the field speaks books:idea:
All the best
Phil

MadDog
31-03-2012, 07:36 AM
Antony,

You do exactly as I do with the 'carcass' lure, as does Sam, going by his recent post....but I knew that anyway! If I habitually, or often failed to serve any hawk, I suppose it wouldn't go up too well and it's response would be good to an artificial lure because it would see it so often and the bond would be good.
However, it is my intention (as it is yours and Sam's) to serve any waiting-on gamehawk that has held its side of the bargain, and gone up, and I would say I keep my side of the bargain 99% of the time. On the occasions that they don't kill, I usually use an artificial lure (if I've got one with me:lol:) before they go back up, but if I'm going for a re-flush, obviously I don't. I've found with the 'several flush' flights at ducks, if they don't kill, they are fairly easy to bring down to almost anything as they are tired and have had enough.

Apart from early excursions that young hawks can be prone to, the only other times I've had to recover a hawk with a lure is when a) they've failed to kill but have been well served and b) when something has gone wrong and this has most often been due to wild Peregrines when I'd throw out anything to get my hawk back safely in that circumstance, and if a carcass does it very quickly(it does)...that's what I prefer to use.

Each to his own I suppose but I must admit that the regular use of a carcass usually means that you're going to need one with you at all times.....but so what?

Regards, Michael.

Hi Mike/Ant
seen most problems with lures when they are shown and not given on a frequent basis ,as when a hawk has lost confidence in its flusher or its out of condition.
I cannot remember using an artificial lure ever,comming through a period when actually catching game was in vogue my bag was allways full so it was easy to use a recent kill as a lure:-D nowdays when recreation falconry is in the asendency the dead bird lure is of little need.
As pitch is the measure of any hawk rather than head count i use English Game Bantams as i have a good supply and i am catching less with the falcon.
These are really heavy for their size and cannot be carried by the falcon.
The sucess rate flying mainly at cock Pheasants is much lower with a high flying falcon roughly 1 in 5 so the game Bantam is given for the hawk to pluck on while she calms down after a failed flight.

Kind regards Steve

CloakDaggerTiercel
31-03-2012, 08:06 AM
Hi Mike/Ant
seen most problems with lures when they are shown and not given on a frequent basis ,as when a hawk has lost confidence in its flusher or its out of condition.
I cannot remember using an artificial lure ever,comming through a period when actually catching game was in vogue my bag was allways full so it was easy to use a recent kill as a lure:-D nowdays when recreation falconry is in the asendency the dead bird lure is of little need.
Nowdays as pitch is the measure of any hawk rather than head count i use English Game Bantams as i have a good supply and i am catching less with the falcon.
These are really heavy for their size and cannot be carried by the falcon.
The sucess rate flying mainly at cock Pheasants is much lower with a high flying falcon roughly 1 in 5 so the game Bantam is given for the hawk to pluck on while she calms down after a failed flight.

Kind regards Steve


Hi Steve,
I find a similar situation to your former killing days!
As Mike mentioned, often in duckhawking there is much reflushing, second and third remounts etc.
A hawk conditioned to stoop once and then return in expectation of the lure isn't going to cut the mustard.
They should want and expect to remount after a miss or where the ducks have given them no clear shot by dropping back in.

As you say with a very good duckhawk kills are the norm, so there is either yesterdays duck to throw out to bring the hawk down or more likely you are picking up off a kill.
When they have been through an arduous flight and are tired like Mike says they are ready to come down to anything anyway, but it's a nicer reward to call them down to a dead lure after a hard effort, just like the posters who like to serve a dead lure after failing to serve.I think they enjoy plucking and getting ready to eat, its a process, and I think it's at least some reward for a great effort.

But this regime fits my situation where the quarry is mostly all ducks. It works well, helps keep the hawks spirits up (I like to think) when it goes through a rough patch, and on away days such as grouse hawking where you need the hawk down after one stoop, It gets them back immediately.

Plus I mostly feed pigeon anyway and am defrosting them on a daily basis so it makes sense to throw them out rather than carry any other lure in the vest.

The chickens are a good idea for the larger falcons.

Horses for courses.

Nick

SmallPeregrine
31-03-2012, 09:07 AM
Hi Mike/Ant
seen most problems with lures when they are shown and not given on a frequent basis ,as when a hawk has lost confidence in its flusher or its out of condition.
I cannot remember using an artificial lure ever,comming through a period when actually catching game was in vogue my bag was allways full so it was easy to use a recent kill as a lure:-D nowdays when recreation falconry is in the asendency the dead bird lure is of little need.
Nowdays as pitch is the measure of any hawk rather than head count i use English Game Bantams as i have a good supply and i am catching less with the falcon.
These are really heavy for their size and cannot be carried by the falcon.
The sucess rate flying mainly at cock Pheasants is much lower with a high flying falcon roughly 1 in 5 so the game Bantam is given for the hawk to pluck on while she calms down after a failed flight.

Kind regards Steve

Hi Steve,
I find a similar situation to your former killing days!
As Mike mentioned, often in duckhawking there is much reflushing, second and third remounts etc.
A hawk conditioned to stoop once and then return in expectation of the lure isn't going to cut the mustard.
They should want and expect to remount after a miss or where the ducks have given them no clear shot by dropping back in.

As you say with a very good duckhawk kills are the norm, so there is either yesterdays duck to throw out to bring the hawk down or more likely you are picking up off a kill.
When they have been through an arduous flight and are tired like Mike says they are ready to come down to anything anyway, but it's a nicer reward to call them down to a dead lure after a hard effort, just like the posters who like to serve a dead lure after failing to serve.I think they enjoy plucking and getting ready to eat, its a process, and I think it's at least some reward for a great effort.

But this regime fits my situation where the quarry is mostly all ducks. It works well, helps keep the hawks spirits up (I like to think) when it goes through a rough patch, and on away days such as grouse hawking where you need the hawk down after one stoop, It gets them back immediately.

Plus I mostly feed pigeon anyway and am defrosting them on a daily basis so it makes sense to throw them out rather than carry any other lure in the vest.

The chickens are a good idea for the larger falcons.

Horses for courses.

Nick
Nick/Steve
Two well balanced posts based on common sense and experience, keep it up:supz:
Atb
Phil

CloakDaggerTiercel
31-03-2012, 09:35 AM
Phil,

I always have, and always would use artificial lures for merlins. I stitch my own out of two small oval cuts of leather and stuff it with a wine cork wrapped in a carrier bag. It is nice and stream lined with enough ballast to swing properly at speed, but still light enough and soft enough for a merlins dainty feet to strike. The ones sold on the market are a little big and heavy for my tastes.

Also If i was gamehawking conventionally on partridge or grouse I would probably use an artificial more, but I don't so I don't!

I think that while traditional practices are obviously worthy I'm not blinded by them that I can't adapt to suit different circumstances.

Nick

MadDog
31-03-2012, 09:46 AM
Hi Steve,
I find a similar situation to your former killing days!
As Mike mentioned, often in duckhawking there is much reflushing, second and third remounts etc.
A hawk conditioned to stoop once and then return in expectation of the lure isn't going to cut the mustard.
They should want and expect to remount after a miss or where the ducks have given them no clear shot by dropping back in.

As you say with a very good duckhawk kills are the norm, so there is either yesterdays duck to throw out to bring the hawk down or more likely you are picking up off a kill.
When they have been through an arduous flight and are tired like Mike says they are ready to come down to anything anyway, but it's a nicer reward to call them down to a dead lure after a hard effort, just like the posters who like to serve a dead lure after failing to serve.I think they enjoy plucking and getting ready to eat, its a process, and I think it's at least some reward for a great effort.

But this regime fits my situation where the quarry is mostly all ducks. It works well, helps keep the hawks spirits up (I like to think) when it goes through a rough patch, and on away days such as grouse hawking where you need the hawk down after one stoop, It gets them back immediately.

Plus I mostly feed pigeon anyway and am defrosting them on a daily basis so it makes sense to throw them out rather than carry any other lure in the vest.

The chickens are a good idea for the larger falcons.

Horses for courses.

Nick

Hi Nick
i remember one guy who forgot his lure and to solve his problem threw his hat down ,which the hawk imeadiatly stooped and made off with.:-D
They will come down to anything when they are ready i just like it to be as natural as possible.

Kind regards Steve

Tony James
31-03-2012, 09:56 AM
They will come down to anything when they are ready .....

Kind regards Steve

Much better Steve if they come down when you're ready:yawinkle:

CloudBase1664
31-03-2012, 10:07 AM
[QUOTE=MadDog;1848064]Hi Mike/Ant

I cannot remember using an artificial lure ever,comming through a period when actually catching game was in vogue my bag was allways full so it was easy to use a recent kill as a lure:-D nowdays when recreation falconry is in the asendency the dead bird lure is of little need.
As pitch is the measure of any hawk rather than head count

A couple of interesting statements Steve.Perhaps, in the interest of debate you could expand on them.

Dave

SmallPeregrine
31-03-2012, 10:09 AM
:roll:Much better Steve if they come down when you're ready:yawinkle:
If thats the case Tony who flushes when the Falcons not ready:roll::goodman:

MadDog
31-03-2012, 11:57 AM
[QUOTE=MadDog;1848064]Hi Mike/Ant

I cannot remember using an artificial lure ever,comming through a period when actually catching game was in vogue my bag was allways full so it was easy to use a recent kill as a lure:-D nowdays when recreation falconry is in the asendency the dead bird lure is of little need.
As pitch is the measure of any hawk rather than head count

A couple of interesting statements Steve.Perhaps, in the interest of debate you could expand on them.

Dave

Hi Dave
i will answer in good faith.
When i started out in falconry especially on the Grouse scene it was the catching of the quarry which was done in most cases with scant regards to style.This was not intentional but the Grouse hawks would become very efficient especially over good dogs and realised pitch was of little importance to their sucess.
I think i have seen most of the falconers from that period and with one or two exceptions this was the case.
If you asked most falconers would they prefere a hawk killing daily from a modest pitch or a very high pitching falcon that killed 1 in 5 flights i think they would go for the latter especially if they had their fill of topping the freezer up.
The top elite hawks that do both are a rare treasure and this is what sorts a good hawk from a great hawk.
The style and the manner of which an individual falconer takes his quarry is to his own satisfaction, to me the catching of the quarry is important but with the falcon rather than the tercel you have to be more carefull in the making.

In general i have seen a shift from the need to catch quarry and entering an eyass early in the season, to that of having a high pitching falcon and to this end many young eyasses do not enter the field till they have gone through a process of training that ensures a good pitch is taken before they are hunted Many fly hawks although they do not have suitable land and quarry but use the kite to help see them through the season.


As i have aged i certainly have more respect for the quarry and this is reflected in my hawking as i will not reflush put in quarry unless under special circumstances ie entering an eyass.
As you well know Dave the phone goes soon as your guests leaves an the question always is how high not did he catch:-D

Kind regards Steve

CloakDaggerTiercel
31-03-2012, 01:04 PM
[quote=CloudBase1664;1848083]

Hi Dave

The top elite hawks that do both are a rare treasure and this is what sorts a good hawk from a great hawk.

Kind regards Steve

Hi Steve,

Thats a great post. I think most are looking for that combination of style and proficency, and as you say now and again a gamehawk comes along that has both.
Most people I guess are trying to move along the sliding scale from one direction or the other to find that balance of the two that suits them.

Ive got to admit if i had to fall on one side of the balance scale at this moment in time it would be the proficiency side. Ive had a couple of tiercels that both went through phases of flying very high daily and not catching much (largely due to being too high in weight). I found it very frustrating and in the end a little bit boring. A homing pigeon can be trained to mount into the heavens to a greater pitch than most falcons, and they will catch as much as a high flying falcon that doesn't catch much.
I guess it depends on your roots as a hunter or a hawk watcher, or a model airplane flier.

I get you on the grouse and partridge hawking it can be very routine with a good killer, and very routine with an elite hawk.

Maybe now with falling partridge numbers and the cost of grousehawking, the common aim is more pitch, and with a fairly standard flight such as these two quarries provide the only variable left to improve is the pitch, as the big bags of partridge made in great style of a a few years ago are now largely impossible or unsustainable due to partridge decreases.

On the subject of high flights at pheasants I guess there is a larger scope to increase the proficiency. 1 in 5 kill ratio is not much even from great pitches.

Maybe some of the high flying head tapping tiercels would improve that ratio?

At the other end of the scale are the relatively new quarries, snipe and plover. New in the sense that more people are trying them.
I guess the aim for now is just to try and catch a few and try and wed the hawk to them without ruining it's physche with defeat after defeat.
It's good that there are plenty of targets left in the sport.

Sorry a bit of a ramble and off topic. Id still use a dead lure every time:lol:

Nick

MadDog
31-03-2012, 01:47 PM
[quote=MadDog;1848102]

Hi Steve,

Thats a great post. I think most are looking for that combination of style and proficency, and as you say now and again a gamehawk comes along that has both.
Most people I guess are trying to move along the sliding scale from one direction or the other to find that balance of the two that suits them.

Ive got to admit if i had to fall on one side of the balance scale at this moment in time it would be the proficiency side. Ive had a couple of tiercels that both went through phases of flying very high daily and not catching much (largely due to being too high in weight). I found it very frustrating and in the end a little bit boring. A homing pigeon can be trained to mount into the heavens to a greater pitch than most falcons, and they will catch as much as a high flying falcon that doesn't catch much.
I guess it depends on your roots as a hunter or a hawk watcher, or a model airplane flier.

I get you on the grouse and partridge hawking it can be very routine with a good killer, and very routine with an elite hawk.

Maybe now with falling partridge numbers and the cost of grousehawking, the common aim is more pitch, and with a fairly standard flight such as these two quarries provide the only variable left to improve is the pitch, as the big bags of partridge made in great style of a a few years ago are now largely impossible or unsustainable due to partridge decreases.

On the subject of high flights at pheasants I guess there is a larger scope to increase the proficiency. 1 in 5 kill ratio is not much even from great pitches.

Maybe some of the high flying head tapping tiercels would improve that ratio?

At the other end of the scale are the relatively new quarries, snipe and plover. New in the sense that more people are trying them.
I guess the aim for now is just to try and catch a few and try and wed the hawk to them without ruining it's physche with defeat after defeat.
It's good that there are plenty of targets left in the sport.

Sorry a bit of a ramble and off topic. Id still use a dead lure every time:lol:

Nick

Hi Nick
we share a lot of common ground ,you filled in the many gaps i left:-D.
The Pheasant hawking is a puzzle at a low pitch before they are going properly you can get very high sucess rates ,where as a falcon at a high pitch and the Pheasant at full tilt the out come is never certain.My dilema is with a young falcon a weight to encourage her to fly with fredom,and to flush to encourage and maintaine this .
It can be so frustrating for a falcon to set on a pitch she finds to her liking and where she is sucessfull, the art is conning her to go higher than she really needs to be.
I have only had head shots when the falcons have been at the sharper end of their weight and at no decent pitch.
The high flying executioner is what dreams are made of.
I haver spoken to Ant about sucess rates at Pheasants and he has had similar results

Kind regards Steve

Judd Casper
31-03-2012, 05:15 PM
Sam I can understand youíre reasoning your thinking like a human not sure how the falcon would see this?
If you produce a lure after a failed flush the hawk committing to the stoop missing game the hawks going get the lure if you produce a carcass after a blank no game produced the hawk is given a reward?
Pretty soon the falcons going to want its reward no matter if itís been severed or not?
Alf.Hi Alf to answer your question I'd say no they don't want the reward no matter if they have been served or not. I have used this regime on my last two falcons one flown for 11 season that I had to retire due to heath and one flown for eight and they seemed to take real well to it, I also used it on all the tiercels I flew before moving on to falcons.Your rewarding your hawk for faithfully waiting on at pitch which I believe strengthens the bond.Also if a flight goes belly up I generally throw the carcass and feed up anyway.


ATB
Sam

Much better Steve if they come down when you're ready:yawinkle:Ouch no reply that must have hurt.:yawinkle:



ATB
Sam

MadDog
31-03-2012, 06:03 PM
Hi Alf to answer your question I'd say no they don't want the reward no matter if they have been served or not. I have used this regime on my last two falcons one flown for 11 season that I had to retire due to heath and one flown for eight and they seemed to take real well to it, I also used it on all the tiercels I flew before moving on to falcons.Your rewarding your hawk for faithfully waiting on at pitch which I believe strengthens the bond.Also if a flight goes belly up I generally throw the carcass and feed up anyway.


ATB
Sam

Ouch no reply that must have hurt.:yawinkle:



ATB
Sam

Hi Sam
no need to reply Phill beat me to it.

Kind regards Steve

Alf
31-03-2012, 07:06 PM
Sam so giving a reward like a carcass is purely to reward the hawk for its efforts?
And from what youíre saying depending on how successful your falcon has been dictates if or not the carcass comes out the bag if a kill has not been made.
Is retrieval as quick or as effective if your hawk does not perform well and doesnít kill and a artificial lure is shown? Alf.





Hi Alf to answer your question I'd say no they don't want the reward no matter if they have been served or not. I have used this regime on my last two falcons one flown for 11 season that I had to retire due to heath and one flown for eight and they seemed to take real well to it, I also used it on all the tiercels I flew before moving on to falcons.Your rewarding your hawk for faithfully waiting on at pitch which I believe strengthens the bond.Also if a flight goes belly up I generally throw the carcass and feed up anyway.


ATB
Sam

Ouch no reply that must have hurt.:yawinkle:



ATB
Sam

Tony James
31-03-2012, 07:07 PM
Hi Sam
no need to reply Phill beat me to it.

Kind regards Steve

I'd hoped you might have offered something more intelligent Steve.

What happens when you want your hawk down before it's ready? Maybe you've messed up and can't serve it --- do you allow the flight to degenerate further and further, perhaps resulting in the hawk finding her own amusement elsewhere? Or do you serve her with the lure before things degenerate?

I would suggest, based on my experiences, that you're much better to serve the lure on those rare occasions (in recent times I've faced that decision just twice a season), than to establish the principle that the hawk comes down 'when she's ready'.

Food for thought perhaps?

Tony.

MadDog
31-03-2012, 08:47 PM
I'd hoped you might have offered something more intelligent Steve.

What happens when you want your hawk down before it's ready? Maybe you've messed up and can't serve it --- do you allow the flight to degenerate further and further, perhaps resulting in the hawk finding her own amusement elsewhere? Or do you serve her with the lure before things degenerate?

I would suggest, based on my experiences, that you're much better to serve the lure on those rare occasions (in recent times I've faced that decision just twice a season), than to establish the principle that the hawk comes down 'when she's ready'.

Food for thought perhaps?

Tony.

Stop grasping at straws Tony you do what most falconers do and that is flush for the hawk when she is ready.
Giving the falcon the time and freedom to mount is a key to a high flyer.
My dead bird lure works for me,and my hawk can be brough down at any stage of the flight by flushing game or producing the lure but it is pointless to flush before she is ready

Tony James
31-03-2012, 09:02 PM
Stop grasping at straws Tony you do what most falconers do and that is flush for the hawk when she is ready.
Giving the falcon the time and freedom to mount is a key to a high flyer.
My dead bird lure works for me,and my hawk can be brough down at any stage of the flight by flushing game or producing the lure

Of course I do Steve. I was talking about those rare occasions when we can't for one reason or another.
In my opinion, when that happens, you should call an end to the flight ---- and that requires a falcon to do as you wish, not as she wishes.

But ultimately the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Did your falcon head off to find amusement on her own? If not, and her amusement was found to come only from you, then you need think no more of it.
But, if you allowed her (or couldn't stop her), once she was made (if indeed she was made), to venture here and there at her own fancy, maybe your use of the lure was lacking in judgement?
There's a big difference between something that works, and something that suffices.

Tony.

Johny
31-03-2012, 09:52 PM
Of course I do Steve. I was talking about those rare occasions when we can't for one reason or another.
In my opinion, when that happens, you should call an end to the flight ---- and that requires a falcon to do as you wish, not as she wishes.

But ultimately the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Did your falcon head off to find amusement on her own? If not, and her amusement was found to come only from you, then you need think no more of it.
But, if you allowed her (or couldn't stop her), once she was made (if indeed she was made), to venture here and there at her own fancy, maybe your use of the lure was lacking in judgement?
There's a big difference between something that works, and something that suffices.

Tony.

Excellent post Tony, entire good sense, a rare and altogther uncommon thing. Only the most blinkered or egocentric could find fault with such a post, such plain sense. Or indeed, those who achieve no idea of what you're on about :lol:

But I like it no matter what.

Judd Casper
01-04-2012, 07:10 AM
Sam so giving a reward like a carcass is purely to reward the hawk for its efforts?
And from what youíre saying depending on how successful your falcon has been dictates if or not the carcass comes out the bag if a kill has not been made.
Is retrieval as quick or as effective if your hawk does not perform well and doesn't kill and a artificial lure is shown? Alf.Alf If my hawks been successful it will be feeding up from a kill.The carcass is only thrown out if the team on the ground which is myself and my dog let the hawk down when she is waiting on at pitch. Which fortunately doesn't happen to often and I think this is paramount to the hawk not expecting the carcass at all times. If the hawk stoops but is unsuccessful she returns to her artificial lure.If my hawks don't perform well I don't serve them with game, I'd just throw out the artificial lure and give them 1/2 a chick leg for their poor performance and try them later if time allowed this.Retrieval with the artificial lure in this type of situation is very effective.


ATB
Sam

Of course I do Steve. I was talking about those rare occasions when we can't for one reason or another.
In my opinion, when that happens, you should call an end to the flight ---- and that requires a falcon to do as you wish, not as she wishes.

But ultimately the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Did your falcon head off to find amusement on her own? If not, and her amusement was found to come only from you, then you need think no more of it.
But, if you allowed her (or couldn't stop her), once she was made (if indeed she was made), to venture here and there at her own fancy, maybe your use of the lure was lacking in judgement?
There's a big difference between something that works, and something that suffices.

Tony.This is a gem of a post Tony.


ATB
Sam

Tony James
01-04-2012, 09:06 AM
Excellent post Tony, entire good sense, a rare and altogther uncommon thing. Only the most blinkered or egocentric could find fault with such a post, such plain sense. Or indeed, those who achieve no idea of what you're on about :lol:

But I like it no matter what.

That's kind of you to say John, but there's always an alternative view (which may or may not be well founded).
That said, I do chuckle sometimes when I read some of the advice, comment and criticisms on here, knowing that it is written by people who seem not to realise that they have consistently failed to improve in their own standards.
As I said, the proof is in the pudding, and it takes an honest man to look in the mirror and realise that what he's doing could be improved upon.

Best wishes,

Tony.

CloakDaggerTiercel
01-04-2012, 11:37 AM
As I said, the proof is in the pudding, and it takes an honest man to look in the mirror and realise that what he's doing could be improved upon.

Best wishes,

Tony.

That's all very true Tony.
Every single falconer out there no matter how experienced, if he's honest has the potential to improve his standards and the hawks or falcons he is flying.
The real honest veterans and the ones I respect the most generally admit that the more you do it, and the longer you've been in it, the less you know!

I'll never forget Steve Frank asking a mutual friend how he could get his falcons waiting on like his. It was very humbling and the mark of a great.

My system of recalling a hawk suits me fine, not that I thought about it alot before this thread emerged. If a new idea or approach comes along that could realise more benefits then I'm all ears and would consider adapting.

I maybe wouldn't advise it to a beginner in conventional gamehawking circumstances, but then that wasn't the original thread question.

Nick

MadDog
01-04-2012, 11:38 AM
Of course I do Steve. I was talking about those rare occasions when we can't for one reason or another.
In my opinion, when that happens, you should call an end to the flight ---- and that requires a falcon to do as you wish, not as she wishes.

But ultimately the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Did your falcon head off to find amusement on her own? If not, and her amusement was found to come only from you, then you need think no more of it.
But, if you allowed her (or couldn't stop her), once she was made (if indeed she was made), to venture here and there at her own fancy, maybe your use of the lure was lacking in judgement?
There's a big difference between something that works, and something that suffices.

Tony.

Utter guff, the thread is about lures not about the management of hawks.
My view of the lure is like telemetry, only used to retrive an errant hawk.
I do not class dropping a hawk under control with a pick up piece or dead bird as luring.
Gamehawks following a one flight routine especially those not expected to remount can be extremly reliable so much so a lure and reciever are redundant and will return to the falconer as a matter of course without being lured,some will return to the raised glove.

Tony James
01-04-2012, 11:52 AM
Utter guff, the thread is about lures not about the management of hawks.
My view of the lure is like telemetry, only used to retrive an errant hawk.
I do not class dropping a hawk under control with a pick up piece or dead bird as luring.
Gamehawks following a one flight routine especially those not expected to remount can be extremly reliable so much so a lure and reciever are redundant and will return to the falconer as a matter of course without being lured,some will return to the raised glove.

I guess you've answered my question Steve, and you've got yourself a falcon that on occasion, when she becomes bored or has been let down, looks to please herself. Still, so long as an errant hawk can be tracked down, no harm done eh?
Yes the thread is about lures, but the use of lures and the management of hawks are intimately linked.
Would you like to offer more advice perhaps on how to create a high flying falcon? I found it really interesting:yawinkle:

Tony.

That's all very true Tony.
Every single falconer out there no matter how experienced, if he's honest has the potential to improve his standards and the hawks or falcons he is flying.

Nick

Absolutely so Nick, although in my experience, very few falconers have the humility to recognise good advice when it's offered.

Tony.

CloakDaggerTiercel
01-04-2012, 12:07 PM
Absolutely so Nick, although in my experience, very few falconers have the humility to recognise good advice when it's offered.

Tony.

Tony,

I've found that most falconers will absorb advice, but as beauty is in the eye of the beholder then the beholder will choose which advice to actually act on in his situation.

Nick

Johny
01-04-2012, 12:08 PM
That's kind of you to say John, but there's always an alternative view (which may or may not be well founded).
That said, I do chuckle sometimes when I read some of the advice, comment and criticisms on here, knowing that it is written by people who seem not to realise that they have consistently failed to improve in their own standards.
As I said, the proof is in the pudding, and it takes an honest man to look in the mirror and realise that what he's doing could be improved upon.

Best wishes,

Tony.


Well put indeed Tony, and for sure there is always an alternative view.

It is a shame however, when rigidity of thought inhibits the prospect of development, and then too we see the confinement to processes and methods which might be woefully inadequate. I do enjoy a good pudding myself, particularly when it has been thoroughly defrosted, to reveal the evidence you understand :lol:

All the best

Johny

Tony James
01-04-2012, 12:11 PM
Tony,

I've found that most falconers will absorb advice, but as beauty is in the eye of the beholder then the beholder will choose which advice to actually act on in his situation.

Nick

Most folk who have difficulty in recognising good advice would agree with those words.

Greg
01-04-2012, 12:12 PM
Utter guff, the thread is about lures not about the management of hawks.
My view of the lure is like telemetry, only used to retrive an errant hawk.
I do not class dropping a hawk under control with a pick up piece or dead bird as luring.
Gamehawks following a one flight routine especially those not expected to remount can be extremly reliable so much so a lure and reciever are redundant and will return to the falconer as a matter of course without being lured,some will return to the raised glove.


Steve I can't see that you can call a bird that needs to be recalled as errant except in certain circumstances!

With the definition of luring you can even call bringing into the fist as luring! I've stayed off this thread for a while and read with interest. As I said before round and round in circles so you can just jump back in at any time and still be almost at the same place!

The good thing is that in some way everyone is right





lure
1.
a. Something that tempts or attracts with the promise of pleasure or reward.
b. An attraction or appeal.
2. A decoy used in catching animals, especially an artificial bait used in catching fish.
3. A bunch of feathers attached to a long cord, used in falconry to recall the hawk.
tr.v. lured, lur∑ing, lures
1. To attract by wiles or temptation; entice.
2. To recall (a falcon) with a lure.
[Middle English, from Anglo-Norman, of Germanic origin.]
lurer n.
luring∑ly adv.
Synonyms: lure, entice, inveigle, decoy, tempt, seduce
These verbs mean to lead or attempt to lead into a wrong or foolish course: Lure suggests the use of something that attracts like bait: Industry often lures scientists from universities by offering them huge salaries.
To entice is to draw on skillfully, as by arousing hopes or desires: The teacher tried to entice the shy child into entering the classroom.
Inveigle implies winning over by coaxing, flattery, or artful talk: He inveigled a friend into becoming his law partner.
To decoy is to trap or ensnare by cunning or deception: Partisans dressed as simple farmers decoyed the soldiers into the crossfire.
Tempt implies an encouragement or an attraction to do something, especially something immoral, unwise, or contrary to one's better judgment: I am tempted to tell him what I really think of him.
To seduce is to entice away and usually suggests the overcoming of moral resistance: "The French King attempted by splendid offers to seduce him from the cause of the Republic" (Thomas Macaulay).

CloakDaggerTiercel
01-04-2012, 12:25 PM
Most folk who have difficulty in recognising good advice would agree with those words.

Im glad we are in agreement. We got there in the end!

Tony James
01-04-2012, 12:27 PM
Well put indeed Tony, and for sure there is always an alternative view.

It is a shame however, when rigidity of thought inhibits the prospect of development, and then too we see the confinement to processes and methods which might be woefully inadequate. I do enjoy a good pudding myself, particularly when it has been thoroughly defrosted, to reveal the evidence you understand :lol:

All the best

Johny

I'm afraid like others I've fallen far too often into the trap of defending what I do, rather than fully considering the alternatives.
Given my declared admiration for Ray Turner's book 'Gamehawk', you might imagine that I'd always valued Ray's advice. But not so.
When I first spent time with Ray, I was far too busy dismissing what he said (he really doesn't offer much by way of advice, being well aware that most people will refuse it anyway) to benefit from it.
What a shame it is to have had such good advice available, 30 years ago, and to have wasted 10 years in arguing the toss before he published a book that I couldn't argue with.

Best wishes,

Tony.

..........

Tempt implies an encouragement or an attraction to do something, especially something immoral, unwise, or contrary to one's better judgment: I am tempted to tell him what I really think of him..........


.

Don't be tempted Greg, you'll get banned:lol::lol::lol:

MadDog
01-04-2012, 12:54 PM
I guess you've answered my question Steve, and you've got yourself a falcon that on occasion, when she becomes bored or has been let down, looks to please herself. Still, so long as an errant hawk can be tracked down, no harm done eh?
Yes the thread is about lures, but the use of lures and the management of hawks are intimately linked.
Would you like to offer more advice perhaps on how to create a high flying falcon? I found it really interesting:yawinkle:

Tony.



Absolutely so Nick, although in my experience, very few falconers have the humility to recognise good advice when it's offered.

Tony.

The methods and practise i use are for my own want ,especially with an eyass. Maybe not to your liking but who are you to pass judgement on others.
The best advice i can offer for a high mounting falcon is to buy from a line of naturals :oops:Bored let down yes :oops:

Steve I can't see that you can call a bird that needs to be recalled as errant except in certain circumstances!

With the definition of luring you can even call bringing into the fist as luring! I've stayed off this thread for a while and read with interest. As I said before round and round in circles so you can just jump back in at any time and still be almost at the same place!

The good thing is that in some way everyone is right





lure
1.
a. Something that tempts or attracts with the promise of pleasure or reward.
b. An attraction or appeal.
2. A decoy used in catching animals, especially an artificial bait used in catching fish.
3. A bunch of feathers attached to a long cord, used in falconry to recall the hawk.
tr.v. lured, lur∑ing, lures
1. To attract by wiles or temptation; entice.
2. To recall (a falcon) with a lure.
[Middle English, from Anglo-Norman, of Germanic origin.]
lurer n.
luring∑ly adv.
Synonyms: lure, entice, inveigle, decoy, tempt, seduce
These verbs mean to lead or attempt to lead into a wrong or foolish course: Lure suggests the use of something that attracts like bait: Industry often lures scientists from universities by offering them huge salaries.
To entice is to draw on skillfully, as by arousing hopes or desires: The teacher tried to entice the shy child into entering the classroom.
Inveigle implies winning over by coaxing, flattery, or artful talk: He inveigled a friend into becoming his law partner.
To decoy is to trap or ensnare by cunning or deception: Partisans dressed as simple farmers decoyed the soldiers into the crossfire.
Tempt implies an encouragement or an attraction to do something, especially something immoral, unwise, or contrary to one's better judgment: I am tempted to tell him what I really think of him.
To seduce is to entice away and usually suggests the overcoming of moral resistance: "The French King attempted by splendid offers to seduce him from the cause of the Republic" (Thomas Macaulay).

Hi Greg
to clarify errant means when i have to go and seek ,rather than the hawk returning to me .

Kind regards Steve

Greg
01-04-2012, 01:06 PM
Hi Greg
to clarify errant means when i have to go and seek ,rather than the hawk returning to me .

Kind regards Steve

I've got one of those Steve but a different type of flying!

MadDog
01-04-2012, 01:11 PM
I've got one of those Steve but a different type of flying!

Hi Greg
sorry in all cases when i am posting i am refering to gamehawking.

Kind regards Steve

CloakDaggerTiercel
01-04-2012, 01:36 PM
.
What a shame it is to have had such good advice available, 30 years ago, and to have wasted 10 years in arguing the toss before he published a book that I couldn't argue with.

Tony.



Tony,

All books on falconry are just opinion, written by one person.
Just another guy like you or me. Thats it.
Ive always championed Gamehawking at its Very Best as it gives you a multi dimensional view and allows you a more rounded view of the topic where you can cherry pick what you think suits you, but still, in falconry you largely plough your own furrow. Its just some write about it.

If you chose to argue the toss with RT, I wouldn't call that wasted time. I'm sure you were still absorbing what was offered to you.

I've found that most falconers have the humility to absorb advice and that most falconers have the humility to not force advice on others and be incredulous if they choose not to act on it.
Its just opinion and one man's trash is another's treasure. It's also why no one falconer in history (Turner included) flies all the best hawks. Most people (Turner included) have one very good hawk in their career. Some will have a range, but then what constitutes a great hawk?

Too many variables and variables. When you can a have a range of views simply on the types of lure used, then trying to state what is 'good advice' comes across as a bit absurd.

Nick

Greg
01-04-2012, 02:02 PM
Hi Greg
sorry in all cases when i am posting i am refering to gamehawking.

Kind regards Steve

I can't complain about that Steve, that's what it says on the title!

Tony James
02-04-2012, 08:16 AM
The methods and practise i use are for my own want ,especially with an eyass. Maybe not to your liking but who are you to pass judgement on others.
The best advice i can offer for a high mounting falcon is to buy from a line of naturals :oops:Bored let down yes :oops:



Hi Greg
to clarify errant means when i have to go and seek ,rather than the hawk returning to me .

Kind regards Steve

That's not very helpful Steve.
If you choose to let your falcon fly how and where she wants, rather than how and where you want, that's entirely your choice. I was just hoping you'd share your reasoning for doing so.

And regards high flying falcons, thanks for the advice. But I have to ask, given that you've obviously never had a natural, on what do you base it?

Tony.

PS Have you never judged other falconers?:yawinkle:

Tony James
02-04-2012, 09:32 AM
Tony,

All books on falconry are just opinion, written by one person.
Just another guy like you or me. Thats it.
Ive always championed Gamehawking at its Very Best as it gives you a multi dimensional view and allows you a more rounded view of the topic where you can cherry pick what you think suits you, but still, in falconry you largely plough your own furrow. Its just some write about it.

If you chose to argue the toss with RT, I wouldn't call that wasted time. I'm sure you were still absorbing what was offered to you.

I've found that most falconers have the humility to absorb advice and that most falconers have the humility to not force advice on others and be incredulous if they choose not to act on it.
Its just opinion and one man's trash is another's treasure. It's also why no one falconer in history (Turner included) flies all the best hawks. Most people (Turner included) have one very good hawk in their career. Some will have a range, but then what constitutes a great hawk?

Too many variables and variables. When you can a have a range of views simply on the types of lure used, then trying to state what is 'good advice' comes across as a bit absurd.

Nick

It has no wings attached, but the best lure is obviously a copy of Gamehawk:lol:.

No Nick, not all falconry books are 'just opinion, written by one falconer', and even if they were, some opinions are simply more valuable than others (as are some books of more value than others --- the best ones often being by those falconers who have been heir to the good advice laid down previously by others, rather than those who have tried to 'plough their own furrow').

The advice Ray offers in Gamehawk, in relation to the use of the lure amongst much else, is good. I say that based on the evidence of my own experience, having used various other systems over the years.

You're quite welcome to discount his advice (distilled from centuries of advice from others), and you will of course discount mine. No matter.
But to Ben, and anyone else looking to fly a gamehawk well, I'd suggest they save themselves a decade of arguing and trying to plough their own furrow, and get themselves a copy. In the time it's taken to read all this nonsense, they could have learned a great deal reading that.

Tony.

MadDog
02-04-2012, 12:14 PM
That's not very helpful Steve.
If you choose to let your falcon fly how and where she wants, rather than how and where you want, that's entirely your choice. I was just hoping you'd share your reasoning for doing so.

And regards high flying falcons, thanks for the advice. But I have to ask, given that you've obviously never had a natural, on what do you base it?

Tony.

PS Have you never judged other falconers?:yawinkle:

Hi Tony
having trawled through all the posts to find out what is your way,i am still a little unsure.
Post 8 You agree with Terry to put 2/3 on lure 1/3 on fist.
Post 24 You use an ungarnished lure that is clean.
Post 45 You transfere from kill to lure in doing so you notice a BIG DIFFERENCE..
Post 66 At last ,Transferring from kills to lure retains an appreciation for the lure that is lost when transferring directly to the fist.
Okay so do you at any time garnish the lure ,is all the feeding done on the fist ,if you are trading the lure is it bare .

Reading your posts to conform to your method all i have to do is offer my chicken(not ever frozen} when she is on a kill ,something i have done already .So whats new Tony
My choice of lure is the same through out the season an has been for the last decade it works well for me.
If you want to start a thread on conditioning of Game hawks lead the way with your advice to others it is much needed as Post 74 by Sam implies the problem is with the lure ,when i know its more likely to be to much reflushing where the hawk has trained the monkey especially if the monkey is as desperate for the kill as the hawk.Or when the hawk is too high in condition.
Can you exlplain why you noticed a big difference ,was your hawk ignoring the lure.?

Tony James
02-04-2012, 01:18 PM
Hi Tony
having trawled through all the posts to find out what is your way,i am still a little unsure.
Post 8 You agree with Terry to put 2/3 on lure 1/3 on fist.
Post 24 You use an ungarnished lure that is clean.
Post 45 You transfere from kill to lure in doing so you notice a BIG DIFFERENCE..
Post 66 At last ,Transferring from kills to lure retains an appreciation for the lure that is lost when transferring directly to the fist.
Okay so do you at any time garnish the lure ,is all the feeding done on the fist ,if you are trading the lure is it bare .

Reading your posts to conform to your method all i have to do is offer my chicken(not ever frozen} when she is on a kill ,something i have done already .So whats new Tony
My choice of lure is the same through out the season an has been for the last decade it works well for me.
If you want to start a thread on conditioning of Game hawks lead the way with your advice to others it is much needed as Post 74 by Sam implies the problem is with the lure ,when i know its more likely to be to much reflushing where the hawk has trained the monkey especially if the monkey is as desperate for the kill as the hawk.Or when the hawk is too high in condition.
Can you exlplain why you noticed a big difference ,was your hawk ignoring the lure.?

Steve,

I'll give a taste of what I do, just so you're aware. Not that I should need to, because you've seen my hawks fly a few times.

Initially I would secure food to the lure, on both sides if need be, and in the early days my falcons will likely take 2/3rds of their daily ration from it.

Once made to the lure, I generally keep the lure in my bag or pocket, ungarnished, and dependant on the outcome of the flight, alter what I do accordingly.

It may be that she has killed a cock pheasant after a wonderful flight, and it may be that she has had a run of good flights at cock pheasants without putting one in the bag.
In that case, she will be indulged for some time and allowed to pluck away to her heart's content, and feast on it to the degree I gauge to be appropriate. And while she does, I will prepare her lure with the bulk of the day's remaining rations. She will happily step from her kill when offered the lure, the kill will be quietly tucked in the bag, and when she has finished her rations from the lure, she will quietly step to the fist for what remains, feak, contemplate the world for a minute, and be hooded.

On the other hand, it may be that she has flown in a manner that didn't impress me. Perhaps at a pheasant again, but lacking in real commitment.
In that case I may choose to quickly garnish the lure with a meagre reward, or perhaps nothing at all. If her flying shows little deserving reward, her reward may be little.

Now I'm inclined to believe that transferring from kill to lure retains a value in the lure that evaporates at times when a falcon is taken up on the fist only.
Those times when the falcon goes on a decent run of success, when the lure could lose all appeal, a falcon managed thus remains, in my experience, totally loyal to the lure.

Lest anybody imagine that such a regime might lead to a falcon placing too much affection on the lure, think back on the flights you have seen with my falcons, and ask yourself if you've seen more committed game killers.

Regarding the spoiling of game hawks, and the reckless enthusiasm of some falconers to kill at all costs, yes I agree, it creates falcons that are also ill disciplined. Do you remember the last time you flew down here, when you embarrassed me by flushing countless pheasants, one after the other, for a falcon at tree top height, and all in front of the landowner. I seem to recall she wasn't particularly enthusiastic about the lure, but boy, was she ready to come down.

What's new? Nothing!

Tony.

Judd Casper
02-04-2012, 02:04 PM
Hi Tony
having trawled through all the posts to find out what is your way,i am still a little unsure.
Post 8 You agree with Terry to put 2/3 on lure 1/3 on fist.
Post 24 You use an ungarnished lure that is clean.
Post 45 You transfere from kill to lure in doing so you notice a BIG DIFFERENCE..
Post 66 At last ,Transferring from kills to lure retains an appreciation for the lure that is lost when transferring directly to the fist.
Okay so do you at any time garnish the lure ,is all the feeding done on the fist ,if you are trading the lure is it bare .

Reading your posts to conform to your method all i have to do is offer my chicken(not ever frozen} when she is on a kill ,something i have done already .So whats new Tony
My choice of lure is the same through out the season an has been for the last decade it works well for me.
If you want to start a thread on conditioning of Game hawks lead the way with your advice to others it is much needed as Post 74 by Sam implies the problem is with the lure ,when i know its more likely to be to much reflushing where the hawk has trained the monkey especially if the monkey is as desperate for the kill as the hawk.Or when the hawk is too high in condition.
Can you exlplain why you noticed a big difference ,was your hawk ignoring the lure.?Steve their is no problem with the lure just with the monkeys who don't know how to use it correctly,and then revert to the carcass. Because they think the only way to correct the problems of their errant charge is to go for the easy soft option, the carcass.kindergarten falconry Steve but the shame is some just don't get it????



ATB
Sam

Hawkmaster
02-04-2012, 02:18 PM
Tony, someone mentioned a very strange sort of lure the other day which I didn't quite understand, they were called Trafalgars or something like that! As I said what ever works for you as long as its legal!

7 Day Ban!

SmallPeregrine
02-04-2012, 02:21 PM
I would guess that many gamehawkers do as I do once their hawks are trained, i.e use an ungarnished lure. It's effective, clean, and doesn't have to rely on uncertainties.
Dead lures on the other hand, tend to become the only lure that works for falcons that have trained the falconer, much as live lures do in places where they are used.

It is of course a matter of choice, but someone has asked for advice and would no doubt like some information on which to base his choice.

Tony.

Steve,

I'll give a taste of what I do, just so you're aware. Not that I should need to, because you've seen my hawks fly a few times.

Initially I would secure food to the lure, on both sides if need be, and in the early days my falcons will likely take 2/3rds of their daily ration from it.

Once made to the lure, I generally keep the lure in my bag or pocket, ungarnished, and dependant on the outcome of the flight, alter what I do accordingly.

It may be that she has killed a cock pheasant after a wonderful flight, and it may be that she has had a run of good flights at cock pheasants without putting one in the bag.
In that case, she will be indulged for some time and allowed to pluck away to her heart's content, and feast on it to the degree I gauge to be appropriate. And while she does, I will prepare her lure with the bulk of the day's remaining rations. She will happily step from her kill when offered the lure, the kill will be quietly tucked in the bag, and when she has finished her rations from the lure, she will quietly step to the fist for what remains, feak, contemplate the world for a minute, and be hooded.

On the other hand, it may be that she has flown in a manner that didn't impress me. Perhaps at a pheasant again, but lacking in real commitment.
In that case I may choose to quickly garnish the lure with a meagre reward, or perhaps nothing at all. If her flying shows little deserving reward, her reward may be little.

Now I'm inclined to believe that transferring from kill to lure retains a value in the lure that evaporates at times when a falcon is taken up on the fist only.
Those times when the falcon goes on a decent run of success, when the lure could lose all appeal, a falcon managed thus remains, in my experience, totally loyal to the lure.

Lest anybody imagine that such a regime might lead to a falcon placing too much affection on the lure, think back on the flights you have seen with my falcons, and ask yourself if you've seen more committed game killers.

Regarding the spoiling of game hawks, and the reckless enthusiasm of some falconers to kill at all costs, yes I agree, it creates falcons that are also ill disciplined. Do you remember the last time you flew down here, when you embarrassed me by flushing countless pheasants, one after the other, for a falcon at tree top height, and all in front of the landowner. I seem to recall she wasn't particularly enthusiastic about the lure, but boy, was she ready to come down.

What's new? Nothing!

Tony.
How many Falcons did you have to lose before you changed to this luring method:?:
Phil

MadDog
02-04-2012, 02:46 PM
Steve,

I'll give a taste of what I do, just so you're aware. Not that I should need to, because you've seen my hawks fly a few times.

Initially I would secure food to the lure, on both sides if need be, and in the early days my falcons will likely take 2/3rds of their daily ration from it.

Once made to the lure, I generally keep the lure in my bag or pocket, ungarnished, and dependant on the outcome of the flight, alter what I do accordingly.

It may be that she has killed a cock pheasant after a wonderful flight, and it may be that she has had a run of good flights at cock pheasants without putting one in the bag.
In that case, she will be indulged for some time and allowed to pluck away to her heart's content, and feast on it to the degree I gauge to be appropriate. And while she does, I will prepare her lure with the bulk of the day's remaining rations. She will happily step from her kill when offered the lure, the kill will be quietly tucked in the bag, and when she has finished her rations from the lure, she will quietly step to the fist for what remains, feak, contemplate the world for a minute, and be hooded.

On the other hand, it may be that she has flown in a manner that didn't impress me. Perhaps at a pheasant again, but lacking in real commitment.
In that case I may choose to quickly garnish the lure with a meagre reward, or perhaps nothing at all. If her flying shows little deserving reward, her reward may be little.

Now I'm inclined to believe that transferring from kill to lure retains a value in the lure that evaporates at times when a falcon is taken up on the fist only.
Those times when the falcon goes on a decent run of success, when the lure could lose all appeal, a falcon managed thus remains, in my experience, totally loyal to the lure.

Lest anybody imagine that such a regime might lead to a falcon placing too much affection on the lure, think back on the flights you have seen with my falcons, and ask yourself if you've seen more committed game killers.

Regarding the spoiling of game hawks, and the reckless enthusiasm of some falconers to kill at all costs, yes I agree, it creates falcons that are also ill disciplined. Do you remember the last time you flew down here, when you embarrassed me by flushing countless pheasants, one after the other, for a falcon at tree top height, and all in front of the landowner. I seem to recall she wasn't particularly enthusiastic about the lure, but boy, was she ready to come down.

What's new? Nothing!

Tony.

Hi Tony
you spoilt your post with your last paragraph as it is i do not recall the day as you, unless it was the one as follows.
I think in 28 years flying falcons i have been out with you twice,once at a BFC meet where i flew Scruffy which Ray talked me into taking which was someones elses failure, but in the end i turned it round as recorded eleswhere.At a Lincs meet, the one where Ken scaled the roof for me ,she flew as well as most and better than some taking Cock Pheasant and both Red and English Partridge with no reflushing. On the last day i do admit to trying to flush a Teal a few times as i wanted a 100%record:grin:.
On that day you put your hawk up and you failed to flush a Cock Pheasant you spotted. Leaving your hawk up it drifted away to be recovered later. You claimed it killed a Duck at check.
I think later that season you lost that hawk ,correct me if i am wrong.
The second occasion i was flying a true wild disabled if she went a 100 ft i would have been proud of that as it took 3 months to get her 10 ft off the ground :grin:.
I have stated on many occasions i have killed quarry in the finest of style but also in the poorest.
Rat hunts and reflushing have been part of my falconry past and i really enjoyed them but i like to think i have moved on .
And lastly on the question of pitch on the two occasions i saw you hawks fly ,i would state hand on my heart not in the same league as that Tercel i sold to Paul last season. Your hawks were about the same standard as the facon i flew last season which is very much work in progress.



Your post on the lure and how you use it is a welcome change why did it have to be dragged out .?Why stop there why not a piece on how to condition and make a high flying Gamehawk

Tony James
02-04-2012, 03:01 PM
Hi Tony
you spoilt your post with your last paragraph as it is i do not recall the day as you, unless it was the one as follows.
I think in 28 years flying falcons i have been out with you twice,once at a BFC meet where i flew Scruffy which Ray talked me into taking which was someones elses failure, but in the end i turned it round as recorded eleswhere.At a Lincs meet, the one where Ken scaled the roof for me ,she flew as well as most and better than some taking Cock Pheasant and both Red and English Partridge with no reflushing. On the last day i do admit to trying to flush a Teal a few times as i wanted a 100%record:grin:.
On that day you put your hawk up and you failed to flush a Cock Pheasant you spotted. Leaving your hawk up it drifted away to be recovered later. You claimed it killed a Duck at check.
I think later that season you lost that hawk ,correct me if i am wrong.
The second occasion i was flying a true wild disabled if she went a 100 ft i would have been proud of that as it took 3 months to get her 10 ft off the ground :grin:.
I have stated on many occasions i have killed quarry in the finest of style but also in the poorest.
Rat hunts and reflushing have been part of my falconry past and i really enjoyed them but i like to think i have moved on .
And lastly on the question of pitch on the two occasions i saw you hawks fly ,i would state hand on my heart not in the same league as that Tercel i sold to Paul last season. Your hawks were about the same standard as the facon i flew last season which is very much work in progress.



Your post on the lure and how you use it is a welcome change why did it have to be dragged out .?Why stop there why not a piece on how to condition and make a high flying Gamehawk

:lol:I love it Steve. How does the saying go? Necessity is the mother of (re)invention:lol:

Why did my thoughts have to be dragged out of me? Because what I do is nothing more than standard practice --- or at least I had thought that was the case.

Tony.

MadDog
02-04-2012, 03:18 PM
:lol:I love it Steve. How does the saying go? Necessity is the mother of (re)invention:lol:

Why did my thoughts have to be dragged out of me? Because what I do is nothing more than standard practice --- or at least I had thought that was the case.

Tony.

Ben as a novice asked for advice, standard practise was all he was after.

Come on Tony describe your flight at that AGM meet i know i am not lying.
My memory of my flight on that day has returned as i remember my falcon bound to a hen Pheasant in high cover but lost it , my falcon could not come into my dead bird lure for the cover.
Mother of re invention :oops:

Tony James
02-04-2012, 03:38 PM
Ben as a novice asked for advice, standard practise was all he was after.

Come on Tony describe your flight at that AGM meet i know i am not lying.
My memory of my flight on that day has returned as i remember my falcon bound to a hen Pheasant in high cover but lost it , my falcon could not come into my dead bird lure for the cover.
Mother of re invention :oops:

Oh please Steve.

I, along with a number of guests at a field meet on my ground, in front of the landowner, had endured your pre-flight hype --- you know, the "when she's up a few hundred feet, I'll move round the field and come in from the other side and blah blah blah", and I was mug enough to believe it.
It was disappointing enough to have to watch you flush a bird or two at the start of the flight, but to watch field meet fever set in for another six or eight flushes, with pheasants being strafed left right and centre was utterly embarrassing and is still mentioned on occasion by the landowner (although he never comments on the fact your hawk wouldn't come in to the lure:lol:).
I knew you were a bit of a killer in days gone by, and have been in more recent times. I can only hope you have moved on as you claim.
Best of luck in that endeavour.

Tony.

PS Funnily enough, it was at that same meeting I arranged for Ray to witness what I described as "possibly the best falcon in the country", having believed somebody else's pre-flight hype.
The less said about that the better:yawinkle:

Now, shall we try to help Ben in his search for good advice?
What do you think of Gamehawk?

Brian Sullivan
02-04-2012, 03:48 PM
I can't remember where this person is from that sent me this picture, but he told me he was going to quit commando Hawking, start using a Dog in the picture, and train his Falcon to a lure this season. I think if this guy can make some good choices and changes, I think just about anyone could.:lol:

MadDog
02-04-2012, 04:33 PM
Oh please Steve.

I, along with a number of guests at a field meet on my ground, in front of the landowner, had endured your pre-flight hype --- you know, the "when she's up a few hundred feet, I'll move round the field and come in from the other side and blah blah blah", and I was mug enough to believe it.
It was disappointing enough to have to watch you flush a bird or two at the start of the flight, but to watch field meet fever set in for another six or eight flushes, with pheasants being strafed left right and centre was utterly embarrassing and is still mentioned on occasion by the landowner (although he never comments on the fact your hawk wouldn't come in to the lure:lol:).
I knew you were a bit of a killer in days gone by, and have been in more recent times. I can only hope you have moved on as you claim.
Best of luck in that endeavour.

Tony.

PS Funnily enough, it was at that same meeting I arranged for Ray to witness what I described as "possibly the best falcon in the country", having believed somebody else's pre-flight hype.
The less said about that the better:yawinkle:

Now, shall we try to help Ben in his search for good advice?
What do you think of Gamehawk?

Given the history between us i should know better to enchange posts with you.
Given you have a memory lapse of that day its supprising you can remember my flight at all .
As you quote my good friend Ray often enough ,you ought to remember the basic requirement and flush for your hawk.
You have no right to ridicule your fellow falconer i see you are taking a swipe at another, now let me guess who.There is nothing funny about your posting i find it rather sad.
Ive done with repying to you just keep following the Basic Requirement and you will not go far wrong.

Ray gave me quite a few copies of Gamehawking for doing the chapter on Grouse hawking so Ben can contact me if required.:grin:

CloakDaggerTiercel
02-04-2012, 04:39 PM
No Nick, not all falconry books are 'just opinion, written by one falconer', and even if they were, some opinions are simply more valuable than others (as are some books of more value than others --- the best ones often being by those falconers who have been heir to the good advice laid down previously by others, rather than those who have tried to 'plough their own furrow').

The advice Ray offers in Gamehawk, in relation to the use of the lure amongst much else, is good. I say that based on the evidence of my own experience, having used various other systems over the years.

You're quite welcome to discount his advice (distilled from centuries of advice from others), and you will of course discount mine. No matter.

Tony.

Tony, Tony please stop!,
I never discount anyones advice, even yours. It's just I choose which of it to apply to others.
You say advice is discounted. The flip side to that is an insecurity and intolerance of other approaches.
You say some opinions are worth more than others. That is simply your opinion. Others have their opinions and advice which you choose to discount possibly. No matter, that is your right.

I'd disagree with you slightly on gamehawking literature. Even if Turners book is derivitive but an organised essay on lowland gamehawking, it is just that, an essay on lowland hawking and therefore I read it with the recognition that it focuses on a different branch of sport to mine, which is mostly waterfowl and grouse. The section on dieting is one that I fundamentally disagree with.
You found that ten years of experience led to believe you were wrong to disagree. I found that ten plus years of experience confirmed my reservations on Turners views on diet - through real life experience of another, natural approach that works and throws up results that Turner himself would have been proud of.
That's not to say his approach (when he flew falcons/falcon) didn't work for him, or others who follow it. I'd not show the same intolerance or ignorance of other methods that is commonplace on these forums.

Falconry is a results based pursuit. If you get the results you want, then the methods you have used have been right to a large extent. There is no argument.

Back to the books, the works that really helped me progress were the writings of the early Californian duckhawkers of the 60's and 70's and 80's. People who actually did plough a furrow of sorts, you may have heard of them, people like Bob Winslow, Mike Arnold, Tom Gossard and of course Mike Connolly.
Connolly in particular had the abililty to make sense out of a complex branch of falconry, and make it sound very simple in a very readable format.

But even Connolly had a low opinion of tiercels as duck hawks, something through actual experience I fundamentally disagree with also.

Their thoughts on lures, Ive no idea?
Training a falcon to an artificial lure is very basic stuff. I wouldn't even use wings if I went back to one. I can see the benefits in your situation to using one. If I lived where you do, I would probably do as you. But I don't.

You're a disciple of Turner. Im not, just as you are probably not a a follower of Connolly.
If you're as happy with your results as I am with mine then there is no need for either of us to change or to show intolerance towards other methods.

I'll throw you a crumb or two and agree that Ben is probably best starting off with any old artificial lure, but I think he proabably knew that already.

Nick

Barry
02-04-2012, 04:45 PM
I can't remember where this person is from that sent me this picture, but he told me he was going to quit commando Hawking, start using a Dog in the picture, and train his Falcon to a lure this season. I think if this guy can make some good choices and changes, I think just about anyone could.:lol:

8-)8-)8-)

Tony James
02-04-2012, 04:52 PM
Tony, Tony please stop!,
I never discount anyones advice, even yours. It's just I choose which of it to apply to others.
You say advice is discounted. The flip side to that is an insecurity and intolerance of other approaches.
You say some opinions are worth more than others. That is simply your opinion. Others have their opinions and advice which you choose to discount possibly. No matter, that is your right.

I'd disagree with you slightly on gamehawking literature. Even if Turners book is derivitive but an organised essay on lowland gamehawking, it is just that, an essay on lowland hawking and therefore I read it with the recognition that it focuses on a different branch of sport to mine, which is mostly waterfowl and grouse. The section on dieting is one that I fundamentally disagree with.
You found that ten years of experience led to believe you were wrong to disagree. I found that ten plus years of experience confirmed my reservations on Turners views on diet - through real life experience of another, natural approach that works and throws up results that Turner himself would have been proud of.
That's not to say his approach (when he flew falcons/falcon) didn't work for him, or others who follow it. I'd not show the same intolerance or ignorance of other methods that is commonplace on these forums.

Falconry is a results based pursuit. If you get the results you want, then the methods you have used have been right to a large extent. There is no argument.

Back to the books, the works that really helped me progress were the writings of the early Californian duckhawkers of the 60's and 70's and 80's. People who actually did plough a furrow of sorts, you may have heard of them, people like Bob Winslow, Mike Arnold, Tom Gossard and of course Mike Connolly.
Connolly in particular had the abililty to make sense out of a complex branch of falconry, and make it sound very simple in a very readable format.

But even Connolly had a low opinion of tiercels as duck hawks, something through actual experience I fundamentally disagree with also.

Their thoughts on lures, Ive no idea?
Training a falcon to an artificial lure is very basic stuff. I wouldn't even use wings if I went back to one. I can see the benefits in your situation to using one. If I lived where you do, I would probably do as you. But I don't.

You're a disciple of Turner. Im not, just as you are probably not a a follower of Connolly.
If you're as happy with your results as I am with mine then there is no need for either of us to change or to show intolerance towards other methods.

I'll throw you a crumb or two and agree that Ben is probably best starting off with any old artificial lure, but I think he proabably knew that already.

Nick

Thanks for the crumb Nick, you're a generous fellow:yawinkle:

Given the history between us i should know better to enchange posts with you.
Given you have a memory lapse of that day its supprising you can remember my flight at all .
As you quote my good friend Ray often enough ,you ought to remember the basic requirement and flush for your hawk.
You have no right to ridicule your fellow falconer i see you are taking a swipe at another, now let me guess who.There is nothing funny about your posting i find it rather sad.
Ive done with repying to you just keep following the Basic Requirement and you will not go far wrong.

Ray gave me quite a few copies of Gamehawking for doing the chapter on Grouse hawking so Ben can contact me if required.:grin:

:lol:What I should remember Steve, is that not everyone is to be trusted when they say "Yes, it's still there, I can see it".:lol:

CloakDaggerTiercel
02-04-2012, 04:57 PM
I can't remember where this person is from that sent me this picture, but he told me he was going to quit commando Hawking, start using a Dog in the picture, and train his Falcon to a lure this season. I think if this guy can make some good choices and changes, I think just about anyone could.:lol:

Ha, I like it!

Tony James
02-04-2012, 05:22 PM
Tony, Tony please stop!,
I never discount anyones advice, even yours. It's just I choose which of it to apply to others.
You say advice is discounted. The flip side to that is an insecurity and intolerance of other approaches.
You say some opinions are worth more than others. That is simply your opinion. Others have their opinions and advice which you choose to discount possibly. No matter, that is your right.

I'd disagree with you slightly on gamehawking literature. Even if Turners book is derivitive but an organised essay on lowland gamehawking, it is just that, an essay on lowland hawking and therefore I read it with the recognition that it focuses on a different branch of sport to mine, which is mostly waterfowl and grouse. The section on dieting is one that I fundamentally disagree with.
You found that ten years of experience led to believe you were wrong to disagree. I found that ten plus years of experience confirmed my reservations on Turners views on diet - through real life experience of another, natural approach that works and throws up results that Turner himself would have been proud of.
That's not to say his approach (when he flew falcons/falcon) didn't work for him, or others who follow it. I'd not show the same intolerance or ignorance of other methods that is commonplace on these forums.

Falconry is a results based pursuit. If you get the results you want, then the methods you have used have been right to a large extent. There is no argument.

Back to the books, the works that really helped me progress were the writings of the early Californian duckhawkers of the 60's and 70's and 80's. People who actually did plough a furrow of sorts, you may have heard of them, people like Bob Winslow, Mike Arnold, Tom Gossard and of course Mike Connolly.
Connolly in particular had the abililty to make sense out of a complex branch of falconry, and make it sound very simple in a very readable format.

But even Connolly had a low opinion of tiercels as duck hawks, something through actual experience I fundamentally disagree with also.

Their thoughts on lures, Ive no idea?
Training a falcon to an artificial lure is very basic stuff. I wouldn't even use wings if I went back to one. I can see the benefits in your situation to using one. If I lived where you do, I would probably do as you. But I don't.

You're a disciple of Turner. Im not, just as you are probably not a a follower of Connolly.
If you're as happy with your results as I am with mine then there is no need for either of us to change or to show intolerance towards other methods.

I'll throw you a crumb or two and agree that Ben is probably best starting off with any old artificial lure, but I think he proabably knew that already.

Nick

PS Nick,

it is actually 20 years since I woke up to Ray's advice. The 10 years prior to that were spent in relative ignorance, along with almost all others of that time.
There's a huge difference between being a 'disciple' and having a respectful regard for what is, without doubt, the book that has had more influence on british lowland gamehawking today than any other.

Tony.

CloakDaggerTiercel
02-04-2012, 05:34 PM
PS Nick,

it is actually 20 years since I woke up to Ray's advice. The 10 years prior to that were spent in relative ignorance, along with almost all others of that time.
There's a huge difference between being a 'disciple' and having a respectful regard for what is, without doubt, the book that has had more influence on british lowland gamehawking today than any other.

Tony.


Tony,

You're right, it is a clearly an influential work on lowland gamehawking. But not the only one.
Just as others at that time were practicing lowland hawking in consummate style, in their own happy bliss, you might call that ignorance too.
You weren't ignorant, you were following a different path. It's that simple.

Nick

Tony James
02-04-2012, 05:44 PM
Tony,

You're right, it is a clearly an influential work on lowland gamehawking. But not the only one.
Just as others at that time were practicing lowland hawking in consummate style, in their own happy bliss, you might call that ignorance too.
You weren't ignorant, you were following a different path. It's that simple.

Nick

Nick,

you were just two years old when I first believed I'd cracked it. You really have no idea of how ignorant I was to have thought so.
Yes, we took a few partridges following our different path, but believe me, compared to 'post Gamehawk', we were ignorant. What you now take for granted, was largely unknown then.
But, out of interest, who do you believe was practicing lowland gamehawking in consummate style 30 years ago?

Tony.

MadDog
02-04-2012, 06:04 PM
Thanks for the crumb Nick, you're a generous fellow:yawinkle:



:lol:What I should remember Steve, is that not everyone is to be trusted when they say "Yes, it's still there, I can see it".:lol:

Sorry Tony
got to post what are you saying some astard stitch you up:grin:
Wont have been me as i would not have let anyone be so stupid as to take a long walkin at a Pheasant especially if their falcon had little patience.
As i have stated time and time again you put up as near as possible to the Pheasant and while its under pressure it will stay clamped.
Quite often the Pheasant is there all the time and the field walked over it looking for the falcon rather than nose down for the Pheasant,but each to their own way of hawking

CloakDaggerTiercel
02-04-2012, 06:07 PM
Nick,

you were just two years old when I first believed I'd cracked it. You really have no idea of how ignorant I was to have thought so.
Yes, we took a few partridges following our different path, but believe me, compared to 'post Gamehawk', we were ignorant. What you now take for granted, was largely unknown then.
But, out of interest, who do you believe was practicing lowland gamehawking in consummate style 30 years ago?

Tony.

Tony, the ignorance you do display is presuming I take things for granted and even those facets I do take for granted have nothing to do with your book or it's author. I read the book once. It's not my cup of tea or my style of hawking. Accept that.

My falconry is influenced for better or worse by an american flow of information that pre dates the sleepy Suffolk revolution or a guy who flew one good falcon. I'm sorry if that baffles you but for one claiming to be well versed in the tomes of falconry, you might be a little too blinkered for your own good.

If you really need to ask who was lowland gamehawking in style 30 years ago then I'm starting to think you were right about your foggy patch :lol:

Nick

Little Joe
02-04-2012, 06:17 PM
Dear Nick,

May I say that you coined a line, and whole paragraph, that in my humble opinion is worthy of being quoted in al books on falconry. I am referring to your paragraph starting with "Falconry is a results based pursuit." However there are easier and better ways always to achieve the same result. Recent development like kites for gameharks and rc planes for pursuit hawks are such examples, however much one's traditionalist mindset might balk at these contraptions.

I am a great fan of Ray's book and I feel it has application across a broad sprectrum of gamehawking styles. I shall have to revistit the feeding section, but other than that I found the general advice also of some use to the duckhawker. Although, and please don't take offense, I see duckhawking as less demanding to a falconer provided he has sufficient quarty and suitable ponds.

Rgds,
Jannes

PS: my personal experience with either style? Zero!:-) if you would be gracious enough to indulge my thinking rather than my experience, I'd be honoured. After all, even the most experienced amongst us are only masters of a small section of this thing we call falconry.

Brian Sullivan
02-04-2012, 06:23 PM
Has anyone seen my lure, I think I lost it...:goodman:

Judd Casper
02-04-2012, 06:34 PM
Has anyone seen my lure, I think I lost it...:goodman:I think you might have lent it to the orangutan Brian.:lol:


ATB
Sam

CloakDaggerTiercel
02-04-2012, 06:57 PM
Dear Nick,

May I say that you coined a line, and whole paragraph, that in my humble opinion is worthy of being quoted in al books on falconry. I am referring to your paragraph starting with "Falconry is a results based pursuit." However there are easier and better ways always to achieve the same result. Recent development like kites for gameharks and rc planes for pursuit hawks are such examples, however much one's traditionalist mindset might balk at these contraptions.

I am a great fan of Ray's book and I feel it has application across a broad sprectrum of gamehawking styles. I shall have to revistit the feeding section, but other than that I found the general advice also of some use to the duckhawker. Although, and please don't take offense, I see duckhawking as less demanding to a falconer provided he has sufficient quarty and suitable ponds.

Rgds,
Jannes

PS: my personal experience with either style? Zero!:-) if you would be gracious enough to indulge my thinking rather than my experience, I'd be honoured. After all, even the most experienced amongst us are only masters of a small section of this thing we call falconry.

Jannes,

No offence taken of course.
What little I know, strike that, feel about duck hawking at this time is that is as easy or as hard as you want to make it.
I.e. you can go out and kill duck after duck from small ponds or take on a big lake with hundreds of ducks and get a sound whooping, unless you have a real gem of a falcon, or you have passage falcons or better still haggards like the Californian set I mentioned.

Its the variety in quarry, set ups and difficulty of duck hawking that appeals to me. Some of my set ups are way harder than any grouse or partridge slip and success rates are low.

Grouse hawking is just as good for different reasons. For me the dogs and the wilderness.

NAFA journals and G.H.a.i V.B were the works that led me out of total ignorance and made me believe I could crack it, or at least a few ducks:lol:
For grouse, Charles Hawkins Fisher, Roger Upton and Gilbert Blaines works set the seed.

I heard about Turners views on diet and read about it. It sounds like a nice theory. If it works for others then great. I've always been dubious about squeezing out a DOC until it resembles an off cut of anaemic veal.
A friend who is a bit of a hermit and couldn't care less if anyone ignores his 'good advice' once simply said quite dryly 'you don't put diesel in a jet engine'.

I've always tried to feed the best quality food i can find to my falcons (obviously in moderated amounts). I couldn't say whether its the best or worse way, but it produces wonderful results.
I've seen Zimbabwean falconers go to great lengths to shoot laughing doves (i think) to feed to their minor peregrines. They flew superbly.

It sure beats blocking up the outhouse sink with chicks guts :lol:


Nick

Little Joe
02-04-2012, 07:40 PM
Jannes,

No offence taken of course.
What little I know, strike that, feel about duck hawking at this time is that is as easy or as hard as you want to make it.
I.e. you can go out and kill duck after duck from small ponds or take on a big lake with hundreds of ducks and get a sound whooping, unless you have a real gem of a falcon, or you have passage falcons or better still haggards like the Californian set I mentioned.

Its the variety in quarry, set ups and difficulty of duck hawking that appeals to me. Some of my set ups are way harder than any grouse or partridge slip and success rates are low.

Grouse hawking is just as good for different reasons. For me the dogs and the wilderness.

NAFA journals and G.H.a.i V.B were the works that led me out of total ignorance and made me believe I could crack it, or at least a few ducks:lol:
For grouse, Charles Hawkins Fisher, Roger Upton and Gilbert Blaines works set the seed.

I heard about Turners views on diet and read about it. It sounds like a nice theory. If it works for others then great. I've always been dubious about squeezing out a DOC until it resembles an off cut of anaemic veal.
A friend who is a bit of a hermit and couldn't care less if anyone ignores his 'good advice' once simply said quite dryly 'you don't put diesel in a jet engine'.

I've always tried to feed the best quality food i can find to my falcons (obviously in moderated amounts). I couldn't say whether its the best or worse way, but it produces wonderful results.
I've seen Zimbabwean falconers go to great lengths to shoot laughing doves (i think) to feed to their. minor peregrines. They flew superbly.

It sure beats blocking up the outhouse sink with chicks guts :lol:


Nick

Thank you! :-)

I have to read Gamehawk again, its been a while. I'm battling with Mavrogordato and a musket blackspar now. So little time, so many charges!

But I wholeheartedly agree, I have never fed a DOC to any bird of mine and regardless of stats and studies I consider it an inferior source of food. Even quail needs supplementation, especially when frozen.

Why worry with wild doves is coccidia, but so be it. Its the best food for a spar or falcon. You just have to look at the breast meat!

I hear what you say about duck on big water. This I have never seen and have no knowledge of. All I can say is, respect!

Regards,
Jannes

Tony James
02-04-2012, 07:48 PM
Sorry Tony
got to post what are you saying some astard stitch you up:grin:
Wont have been me as i would not have let anyone be so stupid as to take a long walkin at a Pheasant especially if their falcon had little patience.
As i have stated time and time again you put up as near as possible to the Pheasant and while its under pressure it will stay clamped.
Quite often the Pheasant is there all the time and the field walked over it looking for the falcon rather than nose down for the Pheasant,but each to their own way of hawking

Yes Steve, as you know, I was stitched up. But I'm just one of many to have seen that special little grin when the plan works.
But once bitten and all that, and at least when the stories are flowing, I know first hand what the score is:yawinkle:

On that day I did let someone take that long walk in, knowing my ground as I do, to that dead end ditch that has provided many flights over the years.
But the flight didn't quite work out, and once his falcon was safely back on his fist, I was happy to take the second shot at it.

The really funny thing is, that same falconer visited me at the end of last season, and we flew that exact slip once more (having spotted the pheasant myself that time, so I knew it was there) with my falcon. I left the lads standing in the same spot they had done 5 or 6 years ago, along with a visiting photographer friend.
The flight worked perfectly, as I'd hoped it would for my guest back then. Being the host on the day, I'd rather it went wrong for me than a guest.

Yet another friend took that same slip on the last day of this season. He hadn't seen the pheasant as I remember, but I had. He knew it really existed.
Eight seconds after it flushed, it met his falcon for the first time, and after breaking free and escaping to cover, it was no doubt relieved to see the well trained falcon head back to an artificial lure garnished with chicks.

Roll on next season.

http://falconryforum.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=126920&stc=1&d=1333396010

http://falconryforum.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=126921&stc=1&d=1333396104

Tony, the ignorance you do display is presuming I take things for granted and even those facets I do take for granted have nothing to do with your book or it's author. I read the book once. It's not my cup of tea or my style of hawking. Accept that.

My falconry is influenced for better or worse by an american flow of information that pre dates the sleepy Suffolk revolution or a guy who flew one good falcon. I'm sorry if that baffles you but for one claiming to be well versed in the tomes of falconry, you might be a little too blinkered for your own good.

If you really need to ask who was lowland gamehawking in style 30 years ago then I'm starting to think you were right about your foggy patch :lol:

Nick

Nick,

the sleepy Suffolk revolution was going on when you were sucking a dummy. Accept that or not, it's fact (unless of course you didn't have a dummy).

And yes, I'll push you on your 'lowland gamehawking in consummate style' claim.
Who were they again?

Tony.

CloakDaggerTiercel
02-04-2012, 08:29 PM
Tony,

Stop trying to prove things and just enjoy your falconry and not enforce it on others.
There was no revolution or dummy!
Top class lowland hawking has been going on for centuries. It just involved more blue belton than zeiss:lol:
It shouldn't take me to tell you that.

In more recent times though I can think of at least one game hawker who by all accounts sets a very high standard on lowland game in the time frame you mention.
You've sold me on your ignorance but think Widnes, and you wouldn't be far off.
I never met him which I regret. He sounded a real gentleman.

Nick

Alex Stokes
02-04-2012, 08:30 PM
Nick,

You raise an interesting point here, (my apologies in advance that this does not concern the original question concerning "Lures for gamehawks").

Turner's advice seemed clear and practical to me (and after all, it was based on Latham's book, widely held by many, to be one of the best falconry books ever written) and I saw a number of people using this method with great success.

When the book was published I was still flying goshawks, however was keenly observing how successful gamehawkers managed their falcons. I thought (naively) I had one facet of gamehawking sussed.

When I first visited Canada I was fortunate to witness some outstanding duck hawking with a number of very good falconers, all of whom fed their hawks on duck. It wasn't even that the falcons needed this extra nutritious food due to the weather, as it was September and far from cold. My new found knowledge was on shaky ground. Some time later I saw Simon Higham flying "Freddie". Freddie was without doubt one of the best peregrines I have ever seen fly and he was fed (exclusively I believe) on pigeon.

I am still in a state of flux regarding this matter. Is it better to feed a smaller portion of highly nutritious food or large quantities of lower quality meat? I don't profess to know the answer, (however the theory that the larger bulk will still maintain condition but keeps the digestive system in better order does seem to have merit). All I can say is that both seem to work, and they both work well.

Like so many things in this sport, there seems to be more than one way to achieve the same results.

Regards,

Alex

Jannes,

I heard about Turners views on diet and read about it. It sounds like a nice theory. If it works for others then great. I've always been dubious about squeezing out a DOC until it resembles an off cut of anaemic veal.
A friend who is a bit of a hermit and couldn't care less if anyone ignores his 'good advice' once simply said quite dryly 'you don't put diesel in a jet engine'.

I've always tried to feed the best quality food i can find to my falcons (obviously in moderated amounts). I couldn't say whether its the best or worse way, but it produces wonderful results.
I've seen Zimbabwean falconers go to great lengths to shoot laughing doves (i think) to feed to their minor peregrines. They flew superbly.

It sure beats blocking up the outhouse sink with chicks guts :lol:


Nick

CloakDaggerTiercel
02-04-2012, 08:51 PM
Nick,

All I can say is that both seem to work, and they both work well.

Like so many things in this sport, there seems to be more than one way to achieve the same results.

Regards,

Alex

Hi Alex,

Thanks for a nice post. Accepting your last line is the key to personal progress.

I saw Freddy fly three times on partridge of which two were successful. The pitches would have made a high flying gyr-peregrine proud.

You are what you eat and I like to feed pigeon whenever I can get it. I just like to keep things as natural as possible and my peregrines have always done OK on it.

Regards,
Nick

Johny
02-04-2012, 08:59 PM
Like so many things in this sport, there seems to be more than one way to achieve the same results.

Alex

A most perfect remark,

And as you know, statistical relevance of food properties will never be proven, for falconry purposes, ever.

MadDog
02-04-2012, 09:22 PM
Yes Steve, as you know, I was stitched up. But I'm just one of many to have seen that special little grin when the plan works.
But once bitten and all that, and at least when the stories are flowing, I know first hand what the score is:yawinkle:

On that day I did let someone take that long walk in, knowing my ground as I do, to that dead end ditch that has provided many flights over the years.
But the flight didn't quite work out, and once his falcon was safely back on his fist, I was happy to take the second shot at it.

The really funny thing is, that same falconer visited me at the end of last season, and we flew that exact slip once more (having spotted the pheasant myself that time, so I knew it was there) with my falcon. I left the lads standing in the same spot they had done 5 or 6 years ago, along with a visiting photographer friend.
The flight worked perfectly, as I'd hoped it would for my guest back then. Being the host on the day, I'd rather it went wrong for me than a guest.

Yet another friend took that same slip on the last day of this season. He hadn't seen the pheasant as I remember, but I had. He knew it really existed.
Eight seconds after it flushed, it met his falcon for the first time, and after breaking free and escaping to cover, it was no doubt relieved to see the well trained falcon head back to an artificial lure garnished with chicks.

Roll on next season.

http://falconryforum.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=126920&stc=1&d=1333396010

http://falconryforum.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=126921&stc=1&d=1333396104



Nick,

the sleepy Suffolk revolution was going on when you were sucking a dummy. Accept that or not, it's fact (unless of course you didn't have a dummy).

And yes, I'll push you on your 'lowland gamehawking in consummate style' claim.
Who were they again?

Tony.


Hi Tony
you were not stitched up , you were the one that spotted the Pheasant
on this occasion just let down by field craft.Just as Ray in his book asks the question Eastern promise or Chinese puzzle on this day it was the latter.
Make out what you like if it helps diverts attention from this.
The only other time i flew with you i filmed your flight from start to finish its a good bit of footage as i remember i will have to dig it out.

Tony James
02-04-2012, 09:54 PM
Nick,

You raise an interesting point here, (my apologies in advance that this does not concern the original question concerning "Lures for gamehawks").

Turner's advice seemed clear and practical to me (and after all, it was based on Latham's book, widely held by many, to be one of the best falconry books ever written) and I saw a number of people using this method with great success.

When the book was published I was still flying goshawks, however was keenly observing how successful gamehawkers managed their falcons. I thought (naively) I had one facet of gamehawking sussed.

When I first visited Canada I was fortunate to witness some outstanding duck hawking with a number of very good falconers, all of whom fed their hawks on duck. It wasn't even that the falcons needed this extra nutritious food due to the weather, as it was September and far from cold. My new found knowledge was on shaky ground. Some time later I saw Simon Higham flying "Freddie". Freddie was without doubt one of the best peregrines I have ever seen fly and he was fed (exclusively I believe) on pigeon.

I am still in a state of flux regarding this matter. Is it better to feed a smaller portion of highly nutritious food or large quantities of lower quality meat? I don't profess to know the answer, (however the theory that the larger bulk will still maintain condition but keeps the digestive system in better order does seem to have merit). All I can say is that both seem to work, and they both work well.

Like so many things in this sport, there seems to be more than one way to achieve the same results.

Regards,

Alex

Hi Alex,

there seem to be certain misunderstandings relating to the advice in Gamehawk about feeding, and what might be read as an over-emphasis on clean feeding.
I say that as one who laboured under a misunderstanding, or a nagging doubt, similar to what you describe.

In or about 1995, Ray and I were out hawking when I queried the validity of the old advice, as I was then flying a falcon that performed best on a diet of pigeon (approximately five days each week, and chicks on the other two). Even though I'd previously enjoyed great flights with a bigger falcon that conformed almost precisely 'to the book' for a number of seasons, this fresh eyas didn't benefit at all from my efforts to maintain her on the same diet.
Ray suggested I read the book more closely, and look for the highlighted passage from Latham ('I do not deny, but that hot and bloody meat is necessarie and good, if he that gives it knows when it is fit to bestow it, otherwise it availeth nothing towards the effectual working of his desire').
The advice is not hard and fast, and relies on the readers understanding that despite certain rules (for want of a better word), it's for the falconer to apply his art in the management of his falcons.

I'm sure I've not worded that very well, but I'm sure you'll get the gist.

Best wishes,

Tony.

PS Another common fallacy, repeated on this thread, is that Ray only ever flew one good hawk. Please treat that with the contempt it deserves.

Hi Tony
you were not stitched up , you were the one that spotted the Pheasant
on this occasion just let down by field craft.Just as Ray in his book asks the question Eastern promise or Chinese puzzle on this day it was the latter.
Make out what you like if it helps diverts attention from this.
The only other time i flew with you i filmed your flight from start to finish its a good bit of footage as i remember i will have to dig it out.

I remember it.
I flew a red hawk that killed a cock pheasant in the stoop. You filmed it very well.

PS You were wrong earlier when you suggested that falcon was lost later that season. She was actually killed, hit by a car, two seasons later.

Schwartze
02-04-2012, 10:52 PM
Hi Alex,
from Latham ('I do not deny, but that hot and bloody meat is necessarie and good, if he that gives it knows when it is fit to bestow it, otherwise it availeth nothing towards the effectual working of his desire').
The advice is not hard and fast, and relies on the readers understanding that despite certain rules (for want of a better word), it's for the falconer to apply his art in the management of his falcons.

I'm sure I've not worded that very well, but I'm sure you'll get the gist.

Best wishes,

Tony.


Hi Tony,

A good reference to the significance of the falconer's intuition in the making of a good gamehawk.

How to feed, just like what type of lure should be used with a gamehawk... You'll either figure it out, or you won't!

If it was as simple as applying a past-proven recipe we'd all be very bored with things, and none of us would likely take much pride in our accomplishments.

Regards,

Steve

P.S. My gamehawks reliably return to the fist when called. No lure necessary. How's that for a can of worms?!

Tony James
02-04-2012, 10:55 PM
Hi Tony,

A good reference to the significance of the falconer's intuition in the making of a good gamehawk.

How to feed, just like what type of lure should be used with a gamehawk... You'll either figure it out, or you won't!

If it was as simple as applying a past-proven recipe we'd all be very bored with things, and none of us would likely take much pride in our accomplishments.

Regards,

Steve

P.S. My gamehawks reliably return to the fist when called. No lure necessary. How's that for a can of worms?!

:lol:Hey, don't start that one. My merlins never see a lure!

INCOMING!!!!

Brian Sullivan
02-04-2012, 11:36 PM
P.S. My gamehawks reliably return to the fist when called. No lure necessary. How's that for a can of worms?![/QUOTE]

When a Falcon will drop from a high pitch to the fist, it is a very happy Falcon with their Falconer and one that is well trained.

Tony James
03-04-2012, 12:09 AM
P.S. My gamehawks reliably return to the fist when called. No lure necessary. How's that for a can of worms?!

When a Falcon will drop from a high pitch to the fist, it is a very happy Falcon with their Falconer and one that is well trained.[/QUOTE]

-------------------

It's funny. I've always done it with the merlins, I did it with a hobby, and as a lad I did it with lanner and lugger falcons, but it's never been something I've considered with peregrines.

I'm wondering why now:lol:

Tony.

Tony James
03-04-2012, 07:23 AM
Thank you! :-)

I have to read Gamehawk again, its been a while. I'm battling with Mavrogordato and a musket blackspar now. So little time, so many charges!

But I wholeheartedly agree, I have never fed a DOC to any bird of mine and regardless of stats and studies I consider it an inferior source of food. Even quail needs supplementation, especially when frozen.

Why worry with wild doves is coccidia, but so be it. Its the best food for a spar or falcon. You just have to look at the breast meat!

I hear what you say about duck on big water. This I have never seen and have no knowledge of. All I can say is, respect!

Regards,
Jannes

Hi Jannes,

it's always worth reading again. And then again and again. As are a number of other books.
But regarding the use of chicks, it's worth remembering as you read, that Tassa flew to a very high standard for 13 full seasons. If falconry is a results based pursuit, Ray's feeding regime was demonstrably not inferior.

I'll have to ask him what lure he used:yawinkle:

Best wishes,

Tony.

Tony James
03-04-2012, 08:01 AM
Tony,

Stop trying to prove things and just enjoy your falconry and not enforce it on others.
There was no revolution or dummy!
Top class lowland hawking has been going on for centuries. It just involved more blue belton than zeiss:lol:
It shouldn't take me to tell you that.

In more recent times though I can think of at least one game hawker who by all accounts sets a very high standard on lowland game in the time frame you mention.
You've sold me on your ignorance but think Widnes, and you wouldn't be far off.
I never met him which I regret. He sounded a real gentleman.

Nick

Nick,

he was indeed a gentleman.

I do enjoy my falconry, thoroughly. But if you don't mind, I will continue to press. Not because I need to prove anything, but because I like our history to be represented accurately.

So, 'Just as others at that time were practicing lowland gamehawking in consummate style', becomes 'I can think of one.....who by all accounts'?

That reminds me of a conversation with John Fairclough, who had just been ridiculed by one of the chest thumping new boys. At the suggestion that his well known tiercel from those earlier days was nothing more than a 'two hundred footer', he raged afterwards 'yes, in the days when people travelled the length of the country to see a two hundred footer'.

The setting of standards is linked to the time and place it's done, and the circumstances that prevail. We're lucky now, having had the foundations re-laid by people, including the friend you never met, who were less fortunate in that they were trying to relearn what had previously been lost.

I can tell you with a degree of certainty, were the friend you mention still with us, he wouldn't describe his gamehawking as being in 'consummate style'.

Tony

MadDog
03-04-2012, 08:52 AM
Hi Jannes,

it's always worth reading again. And then again and again. As are a number of other books.
But regarding the use of chicks, it's worth remembering as you read, that Tassa flew to a very high standard for 13 full seasons. If falconry is a results based pursuit, Ray's feeding regime was demonstrably not inferior.

I'll have to ask him what lure he used:yawinkle:

Best wishes,

Tony.

Page 118 will give you your answer as you well know.
I doubt Ray would have taken this flight on if he had not had a fail safe.
Nicks right you take parts from books that fit in with your own hawking experiences.
Ray was able to keep a falcon for 13 seasons as he was very disiplined in all he did this is the key for a long and sucessfull partnership.

MadDog
03-04-2012, 09:13 AM
Nick,

he was indeed a gentleman.

I do enjoy my falconry, thoroughly. But if you don't mind, I will continue to press. Not because I need to prove anything, but because I like our history to be represented accurately.

So, 'Just as others at that time were practicing lowland gamehawking in consummate style', becomes 'I can think of one.....who by all accounts'?

That reminds me of a conversation with John Fairclough, who had just been ridiculed by one of the chest thumping new boys. At the suggestion that his well known tiercel from those earlier days was nothing more than a 'two hundred footer', he raged afterwards 'yes, in the days when people travelled the length of the country to see a two hundred footer'.

The setting of standards is linked to the time and place it's done, and the circumstances that prevail. We're lucky now, having had the foundations re-laid by people, including the friend you never met, who were less fortunate in that they were trying to relearn what had previously been lost.

I can tell you with a degree of certainty, were the friend you mention still with us, he wouldn't describe his gamehawking as being in 'consummate style'.

Tony

Tony i cannot belive you are knocking Martin the finest Partridge hawker i have been privilage to hawk with.
His hawks flew with consummate style and will never be forgot by those who shared the field with him.
A legend in his lifetime

Tony James
03-04-2012, 09:16 AM
Tony i cannot belive you are knocking Martin the finest Partridge hawker i have been privilage to hawk with.
His hawks flew with consummate style and will never be forgot by those who shared the field with him.
A legend in his lifetime

Knocking Martin?

TomOlivia
03-04-2012, 12:13 PM
I was fortunate to hawk with Martin on a few occasions and from what I saw it was clear that he was a true master of his art. Many people have benefitted from Martin's wealth of experience and great skill, lot's of them without ever meeting him, as it was 'passed along' through other great lowland hawkers, particularly Antony Rhodes, through whom many many rookie falconers have been able to 'get a glimpse' of how Martin did it.
He was using a spotting scope and doing it his way well before Turner's book was able to make the impact it clearly did, although having personally benefitted from both Turner's book, and plenty of field time with some great practitioners, I'd have to say that it's the field time and seeing it with my own eyes that helped me along much more than the reading. (Likewise with duck hawking..I read over and over Connolly's stuff in GHAIVB, but actually seeing it done, in my own back yard was awe inspiring and worth a hundred books)

Clearly, Turner flew a great hawk in Tassa (and probably others...I don't know?) and was very skilled in his observations and writings but likewise, Martin flew great hawks aswell, and in much the same way, and we are all very unfortunate that he didn't put some of his thoughts in writing.

How did 'Lures for Gamehawks' get to this?:lol: Martin would be chuckling quietly to himself no doubt.

Best Regards, Michael.

Judd Casper
03-04-2012, 01:38 PM
Tony i cannot belive you are knocking Martin the finest Partridge hawker i have been privilage to hawk with.
His hawks flew with consummate style and will never be forgot by those who shared the field with him.
A legend in his lifetimeSteve is it just your twisted imagination or what.....how is Tony knocking Martin????


Sam

Tony James
03-04-2012, 01:58 PM
I was fortunate to hawk with Martin on a few occasions and from what I saw it was clear that he was a true master of his art. Many people have benefitted from Martin's wealth of experience and great skill, lot's of them without ever meeting him, as it was 'passed along' through other great lowland hawkers, particularly Antony Rhodes, through whom many many rookie falconers have been able to 'get a glimpse' of how Martin did it.
He was using a spotting scope and doing it his way well before Turner's book was able to make the impact it clearly did, although having personally benefitted from both Turner's book, and plenty of field time with some great practitioners, I'd have to say that it's the field time and seeing it with my own eyes that helped me along much more than the reading. (Likewise with duck hawking..I read over and over Connolly's stuff in GHAIVB, but actually seeing it done, in my own back yard was awe inspiring and worth a hundred books)

Clearly, Turner flew a great hawk in Tassa (and probably others...I don't know?) and was very skilled in his observations and writings but likewise, Martin flew great hawks aswell, and in much the same way, and we are all very unfortunate that he didn't put some of his thoughts in writing.

How did 'Lures for Gamehawks' get to this?:lol: Martin would be chuckling quietly to himself no doubt.

Best Regards, Michael.

Hi Mike,

to deviate further, nobody living today would lay claim to spotting game from a vehicle. Falconers were doing that on Salisbury Plain in the 1930's.

Tony.

Stanedge
03-04-2012, 02:06 PM
Curious logic. Anyone who loses or misplaces their lure out in the field could be in a spot of bother. Thats not really about lure type but about a hypothetical situation. an artificial lure is just as easy to lose as a dead bird?

You've also made a big assumption that falcons used to dead lures won't come down to anything else. Not true, Ive called mine down to artificials when Ive needed to.

Its a nice theory, but not the reality in my experience.

Once or twice i lost my lure with my best tiercel and he would eventually come and land nearby and jump to my fist.

I got short with Pacman once but luckily had a half tennis ball and line in the emergency pocket so he came down anyway. But he would come down to a rolled up sock as he was very inquisitive.

I think the message you were trying to get over was don't lose your lure, which is basic common sense really.


Nick
Nick, why would anyone want to walk around all day with a frozen pheasant or duck in weighing upwards of 2-3lbs when you could have lure weighing a few ounces,i admit i have thrown out a dead grouse that has been caught the same day for another hawk on the cadge that's missed it's grouse and then ended losing it in long heather then spent the next 20 mins trying to find it and have had to use the lure in any case,Brian's right sloppy falconers make sloppy falconry.

Little Joe
03-04-2012, 03:06 PM
When a Falcon will drop from a high pitch to the fist, it is a very happy Falcon with their Falconer and one that is well trained.

-------------------

It's funny. I've always done it with the merlins, I did it with a hobby, and as a lad I did it with lanner and lugger falcons, but it's never been something I've considered with peregrines.

I'm wondering why now:lol:

Tony.[/QUOTE]

It is certainly a pleasure to have a falcon stoop to the fist and the advantages are obvious. I've had a sakeret and a jerkin like that, and now fly a lovely little intermewed gyr x peregrine that would come from about 200ft to the fist. I'm sure he will come from any pitch. I haven't shown him a lure in months. I have never tried it with peregrines.

Rgds,
Jannes

CloakDaggerTiercel
03-04-2012, 04:33 PM
Nick, why would anyone want to walk around all day with a frozen pheasant or duck in weighing upwards of 2-3lbs when you could have lure weighing a few ounces,i admit i have thrown out a dead grouse that has been caught the same day for another hawk on the cadge that's missed it's grouse and then ended losing it in long heather then spent the next 20 mins trying to find it and have had to use the lure in any case,Brian's right sloppy falconers make sloppy falconry.

Daryl,

I don't carry frozen pheasants or ducks?
A pigeon only weighs a few ounces and makes a superb lure and then food afterwards.
Also most of my regular flying is done from he car, so if I wanted to lug a bronze turkey around it wouldn't be an issue :lol:
I've seen Steve Frank throw out a dead grouse many times. It helps in the tenderising process (ref. David Franks Journal recipe section).
You could always have got your setters to find your lost grouse?
That's sloppy mate.

Nick

Brian Sullivan
04-04-2012, 12:06 AM
-------------------

It's funny. I've always done it with the merlins, I did it with a hobby, and as a lad I did it with lanner and lugger falcons, but it's never been something I've considered with peregrines.

I'm wondering why now:lol:

Tony.

It is certainly a pleasure to have a falcon stoop to the fist and the advantages are obvious. I've had a sakeret and a jerkin like that, and now fly a lovely little intermewed gyr x peregrine that would come from about 200ft to the fist. I'm sure he will come from any pitch. I haven't shown him a lure in months. I have never tried it with peregrines.

Rgds,
Jannes[/QUOTE]

Hi Jannes, It works great also on Peregrines. As the birds grow older and inter-mewed they tend to be more bonded with you and the fist is just a great way to have one less step without using the lure. My current Jerkin will come from any height to the fist, but my Gyr x Peregrine female the lure is must. I have tried to bring her to the fist, but she lands on the ground in front of me, as saying where is the lure! :wink:

Fraser Hamilton
04-04-2012, 02:13 AM
as i sed erlyer on thred i recall my falcons to a normal lure and fist i find it verry handy to be able to recall a falcon to the fist

i train all my birds to come to fist before it even sees a lure just the way i do things :supz:

TomOlivia
04-04-2012, 11:27 AM
Hi Mike,

to deviate further, nobody living today would lay claim to spotting game from a vehicle. Falconers were doing that on Salisbury Plain in the 1930's.

Tony.

Absolutely...it's the way to go!

Seriously, in my particular case, ridding my head of the myth that a dog is needed to find and flush game, then seeing the likes of Sam and Antony, Tony Brown, Gus, Steve Williams, Martin, Paul Gillott etc etc using scopes and flushing 'on the button' for great hawks, changed my way of hawking on the low ground forever.

Regards, Michael.

PS. Quick one....Daryl Edward's excellent pointer was staunchly on point and it was my turn to fly. I was hesitant as I like to see the dog fully locked up but Daryl said they were running so 'Get yer hawk up...what do you want, a bleedin photograph of the grouse?' I replied...'would you mind?':lol:

The grouse were there of course and one of them came home with me...as usual:lol:

MadDog
04-04-2012, 08:58 PM
Absolutely...it's the way to go!

Seriously, in my particular case, ridding my head of the myth that a dog is needed to find and flush game, then seeing the likes of Sam and Antony, Tony Brown, Gus, Steve Williams, Martin, Paul Gillott etc etc using scopes and flushing 'on the button' for great hawks, changed my way of hawking on the low ground forever.

Regards, Michael.

PS. Quick one....Daryl Edward's excellent pointer was staunchly on point and it was my turn to fly. I was hesitant as I like to see the dog fully locked up but Daryl said they were running so 'Get yer hawk up...what do you want, a bleedin photograph of the grouse?' I replied...'would you mind?':lol:

The grouse were there of course and one of them came home with me...as usual:lol:


Hi Mike
i am unsure of the falconers spotting in the thirties Tony refers to ,but Blaine a decade earlier employed the tactic of using beaters driving the Partridge into root crops where the Hawks were put up and then the Spaniels were used to flush them out.
Using the same method the Partridge were often marked down then flown.
Its not as good a method as the modern day practise where they are spotted at rest and only disturbed to put them in an more advantageous position.
It is interesting what he has to say of young hawks and the lure.
Some young hawks require to be shown a lure frequently to keep them from straggling off ,but the less it has to be used the better,since any exhibition of a lure to a mounting hawk tends to lower her pitch.In extreme cases a live lure may be needed when a hawk has strayed to far or has raked away after Pigeons or some other atttraction that she has seen at distance.One flutter of the wing of a Pigeon should bring her back high overhead and you may then be fortunate enough to flush underneath her.
In her basic training the Captain states a Pigeon is the best lure

Kind regards Steve

Tony James
04-04-2012, 10:24 PM
Hi Mike
i am unsure of the falconers spotting in the thirties Tony refers to ,but Blaine a decade earlier employed the tactic of using beaters driving the Partridge into root crops where the Hawks were put up and then the Spaniels were used to flush them out.
Using the same method the Partridge were often marked down then flown.
Its not as good a method as the modern day practise where they are spotted at rest and only disturbed to put them in an more advantageous position.
It is interesting what he has to say of young hawks and the lure.
Some young hawks require to be shown a lure frequently to keep them from straggling off ,but the less it has to be used the better,since any exhibition of a lure to a mounting hawk tends to lower her pitch.In extreme cases a live lure may be needed when a hawk has strayed to far or has raked away after Pigeons or some other atttraction that she has seen at distance.One flutter of the wing of a Pigeon should bring her back high overhead and you may then be fortunate enough to flush underneath her.
In her basic training the Captain states a Pigeon is the best lure

Kind regards Steve

You're right about Blaine's practice. Wouldn't it be nice to have partridges in those numbers again?

It's interesting to be reminded of Blaines words, and to reflect on those words "you may then be fortunate enough to flush underneath her". Today's best gamehawkers tend to look for more certainty when it concerns serving a hawk (without fail so far as possible). The clear and definite revelation that a falconer should do more than hope to be fortunate enough to flush, came twenty years after Blaine's book, when Ronald Stevens published his 'Observations'.

His 'Observations' also share a thought or two about lures, and these words might be of interest to Ben.
"It is often a long time before a young falconer learns that a meat-garnished lure is not a whit more attractive to a trained hawk for being decked out with a bird's preserved wings.......... The plain fact is that the lure is nothing more than an object with which the trained hawk learns to associate food, so we do well to strip it of conventional trappings and so make it easier to keep clean".

Tony.

Tony James
04-04-2012, 10:45 PM
-------------------

It's funny. I've always done it with the merlins, I did it with a hobby, and as a lad I did it with lanner and lugger falcons, but it's never been something I've considered with peregrines.

I'm wondering why now:lol:

Tony.

It is certainly a pleasure to have a falcon stoop to the fist and the advantages are obvious. I've had a sakeret and a jerkin like that, and now fly a lovely little intermewed gyr x peregrine that would come from about 200ft to the fist. I'm sure he will come from any pitch. I haven't shown him a lure in months. I have never tried it with peregrines.

Rgds,
Jannes[/QUOTE]

I guess it might work.
Some lures are particularly attractive ungarnished.

http://falconryforum.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=126958&stc=1&d=1333579489

Judd Casper
05-04-2012, 06:55 AM
Hi Mike
i am unsure of the falconers spotting in the thirties Tony refers to ,but Blaine a decade earlier employed the tactic of using beaters driving the Partridge into root crops where the Hawks were put up and then the Spaniels were used to flush them out.
Using the same method the Partridge were often marked down then flown.
Its not as good a method as the modern day practise where they are spotted at rest and only disturbed to put them in an more advantageous position.
It is interesting what he has to say of young hawks and the lure.
Some young hawks require to be shown a lure frequently to keep them from straggling off ,but the less it has to be used the better,since any exhibition of a lure to a mounting hawk tends to lower her pitch.In extreme cases a live lure may be needed when a hawk has strayed to far or has raked away after Pigeons or some other atttraction that she has seen at distance.One flutter of the wing of a Pigeon should bring her back high overhead and you may then be fortunate enough to flush underneath her.
In her basic training the Captain states a Pigeon is the best lure

Kind regards SteveI've seen this mistake being made countless times Steve but the lure should only ever be produced to bring a hawk in.This is probably the best example of why certain folk have hawks that don't return well to an artificial lure and need a carcass or worst still a live lure to retrieve their hawks.:oops:



Sam

Judd Casper
05-04-2012, 07:12 AM
Hi Mike
i am unsure of the falconers spotting in the thirties Tony refers to ,but Blaine a decade earlier employed the tactic of using beaters driving the Partridge into root crops where the Hawks were put up and then the Spaniels were used to flush them out.
Using the same method the Partridge were often marked down then flown.
Its not as good a method as the modern day practise where they are spotted at rest and only disturbed to put them in an more advantageous position.
It is interesting what he has to say of young hawks and the lure.
Some young hawks require to be shown a lure frequently to keep them from straggling off ,but the less it has to be used the better,since any exhibition of a lure to a mounting hawk tends to lower her pitch.In extreme cases a live lure may be needed when a hawk has strayed to far or has raked away after Pigeons or some other atttraction that she has seen at distance.One flutter of the wing of a Pigeon should bring her back high overhead and you may then be fortunate enough to flush underneath her.
In her basic training the Captain states a Pigeon is the best lure

Kind regards SteveSteve I'm sure when the first vehicles were taken onto stubble fields by groups of falconers with the intention of driving the partridges into root crops. Surely the likes of Blaine and Allan must have spotted a few covies on the drive round and put two and two together?
I think Martin just picked up on something that had already been done by others in the past and put his own stamp on it and we are all grateful for that.With ever dwindling partridge numbers it was the only way forward to cover ground quickly and make the most of the shortening winter daylight to get a flight or two in.


Sam


ATB
Sam

SmallPeregrine
05-04-2012, 07:46 AM
It is certainly a pleasure to have a falcon stoop to the fist and the advantages are obvious. I've had a sakeret and a jerkin like that, and now fly a lovely little intermewed gyr x peregrine that would come from about 200ft to the fist. I'm sure he will come from any pitch. I haven't shown him a lure in months. I have never tried it with peregrines.

Rgds,
Jannes

The clear and definite revelation that a falconer should do more than hope to be fortunate enough to flush, came twenty years after Blaine's book, when Ronald Stevens published his 'Observations'.

His 'Observations' also share a thought or two about lures, and these words might be of interest to Ben.
"It is often a long time before a young falconer learns that a meat-garnished lure is not a whit more attractive to a trained hawk for being decked out with a bird's preserved wings.......... The plain fact is that the lure is nothing more than an object with which the trained hawk learns to associate food, so we do well to strip it of conventional trappings and so make it easier to keep clean".

Tony.
I always thought it just doesnt look right bringing the noble Peregrine to the fist, much like it would have looked peculiar back then with the stream of young boys filing up waiting nervously to go into R.Stevens cottage either;)

Alf
05-04-2012, 08:18 AM
Phil is there a story behind Ronald? :yawinkle:





I always thought it just doesnt look right bringing the noble Peregrine to the fist, much like it would have looked peculiar back then with the stream of young boys filing up waiting nervously to go into R.Stevens cottage either;)

MadDog
05-04-2012, 09:07 AM
Steve I'm sure when the first vehicles were taken onto stubble fields by groups of falconers with the intention of driving the partridges into root crops. Surely the likes of Blaine and Allan must have spotted a few covies on the drive round and put two and two together?
I think Martin just picked up on something that had already been done by others in the past and put his own stamp on it and we are all grateful for that.With ever dwindling partridge numbers it was the only way forward to cover ground quickly and make the most of the shortening winter daylight to get a flight or two in.


Sam



ATB
Sam

Hi Sam
it might be Ronald Stevens that Tony is refering to he makes reference to it in his Oberservations on Modern Falconry.He states it can be quite profitable to cruise around in a car to spot a covey.
Their is no mention of spotting scopes or binoculars, it seems to be the way to bump and mark as if the latter were used he or others would have certainly made reference to it.
Martin never had ground available that he could drive around and some ground it would be questionable if he was able to hawk if the owner knew he was catching Partridge:grin: so the spotting scope was the order of the day.
He took field craft to a new level not needing an army of helpers or the use of dogs.
.
When Ronald hawked in enclosed ground he resorted to the practise of leaving his hawk up and reflushing with the aid of dogs till his hawk got its kill, in preference to bringing it down to the lure ,for fear it might end up lure bound.
In fact he wishes he had trained a dog to follow the flight to keep reflushing for him and then return to him to take him to the kill.I smiled when i read that bit as others have practised what he wished for:grin:

I find it quite amusing how some are knocked depending on their popularity for methods which were standard practise by their mentors or Author of such works they recomend.

Kind regards Steve

PS Blaine makes no reference to the use of vechicles on stubbles,the driving i refer to was done on foot by his beaters and dogs

Tony James
05-04-2012, 09:18 AM
I've seen this mistake being made countless times Steve but the lure should only ever be produced to bring a hawk in.This is probably the best example of why certain folk have hawks that don't return well to an artificial lure and need a carcass or worst still a live lure to retrieve their hawks.:oops:



Sam

Hi Sam,

there's no doubt that showing the lure for any reason other than calling a hawk in, will, by degrees, erode its value as a recall device. Blaine obviously understood that to be so, and warns against overuse (any such use might be considered overuse), although it's common to see those warnings ignored.

The cue to call an out of position hawk back into position (I'm making the assumption that 'in position' is somewhere overhead) shouldn't involve the lure at all of course.

Best wishes,

Tony.

Dan Bray
05-04-2012, 12:22 PM
Wow, how did a thread about a lure for a gamehawk get to 33 pages long:D.
I just use an ungarnished lure pad to call my falcon in. He is very responsive to it as he knows he is about to get a good crop. I cant see how it matters what you use for a lure as long as the end result is the same(lure=good crop). I certainly couldnt be bothered carrying a carcass.

Judd Casper
05-04-2012, 12:24 PM
Hi Sam
it might be Ronald Stevens that Tony is refering to he makes reference to it in his Oberservations on Modern Falconry.He states it can be quite profitable to cruise around in a car to spot a covey.
Their is no mention of spotting scopes or binoculars, it seems to be the way to bump and mark as if the latter were used he or others would have certainly made reference to it.
Martin never had ground available that he could drive around and some ground it would be questionable if he was able to hawk if the owner knew he was catching Partridge:grin: so the spotting scope was the order of the day.
He took field craft to a new level not needing an army of helpers or the use of dogs.
.
When Ronald hawked in enclosed ground he resorted to the practise of leaving his hawk up and reflushing with the aid of dogs till his hawk got its kill, in preference to bringing it down to the lure ,for fear it might end up lure bound.
In fact he wishes he had trained a dog to follow the flight to keep reflushing for him and then return to him to take him to the kill.I smiled when i read that bit as others have practised what he wished for:grin:

I find it quite amusing how some are knocked depending on their popularity for methods which were standard practise by their mentors or Author of such works they recomend.

Kind regards Steve

PS Blaine makes no reference to the use of vechicles on stubbles,the driving i refer to was done on foot by his beaters and dogsHi Steve Martin definitely put his stamp on this method of hawking and took it to another level
for UK partridge hawkers, myself included.I have read other references to others doing the same across the pond Les Boyd for one, whether Les was practicing this type of hawking before Martin I don't know?I liked Martin he left out the BS which is all to common in this sport. I found him a very honest and genuine guy,you only had to attend his funeral to see how popular he was amongst his peers.As for Blaine and like not using binoculars,I would of thought they would of carried these with them at all times,remember they had no telemetry so they would of had their use don't you think?Photo of some of the ground I drive over throughout October into November.....with permission to hawk game from the landowner and for no charge:D


ATB
Sam

Hi Sam,

there's no doubt that showing the lure for any reason other than calling a hawk in, will, by degrees, erode its value as a recall device. Blaine obviously understood that to be so, and warns against overuse (any such use might be considered overuse), although it's common to see those warnings ignored.

The cue to call an out of position hawk back into position (I'm making the assumption that 'in position' is somewhere overhead) shouldn't involve the lure at all of course.

Best wishes,

Tony.Hi Tony I've seen this to often when the lures value is eroded so much it has no value at all in the end,and other derogatory or even illegal practices are used to recover wayward errant hawks.Photo attached of Ebony in training with her artificial lure.:yawinkle:



ATB
Sam

MadDog
05-04-2012, 02:32 PM
:grin:Hi Steve Martin definitely put his stamp on this method of hawking and took it to another level
for UK partridge hawkers, myself included.I have read other references to others doing the same across the pond Les Boyd for one, whether Les was practicing this type of hawking before Martin I don't know?I liked Martin he left out the BS which is all to common in this sport. I found him a very honest and genuine guy,you only had to attend his funeral to see how popular he was amongst his peers.As for Blaine and like not using binoculars,I would of thought they would of carried these with them at all times,remember they had no telemetry so they would of had their use don't you think?Photo of some of the ground I drive over throughout October into November.....with permission to hawk game from the landowner and for no charge:D


ATB
Sam

Hi Tony I've seen this to often when the lures value is eroded so much it has no value at all in the end,and other derogatory or even illegal practices are used to recover wayward errant hawks.Photo attached of Ebony in training with her artificial lure.:yawinkle:



ATB
Sam

Sam we will have to agree to disagree on whether the Captain was driving the stubbles and spotting using high powered Binos as most do today.
In an era of plenty his team of dogs was all he needed.
No doubt the binos came in much needed help when he was Rook hawking, i stand by my assumption that if spotting not bumping and marking was in fashion someone would have made reference to the practise.
If he was spotting why drive the Partridge into cover so he could use his dogs?

You are truely fortunate to have your ground for free and allowed to drive it,running a dog for you is an option.
For those not in the same position running a dog will only serve to draw attention to their activities:grin:

When it comes to lures the Captain states to use a dead bird ,as he was the most sucessfull falconer of modern times why should we doubt his good advice.He learnt the hard way and lost many a good hawk. He advises caution in the use of the lure.
Ronald Stevens choice is a brightly coloured bare lure with no attachments.
Ray appears to be the first to practise swapping the lure on the kill to keep the Falcon sweet to the lure but he also used fail safes when required.
Most of modern falconry is a pick and mix of what suits your needs and goals.

Sam may i suggest you and Tony change company if your fellow falconers are always putting you out with errant hawks
The most sucessfull falconers tend to keep their hawks for a good number of seasons .

Kind regards Steve

Little Joe
05-04-2012, 02:54 PM
It is certainly a pleasure to have a falcon stoop to the fist and the advantages are obvious. I've had a sakeret and a jerkin like that, and now fly a lovely little intermewed gyr x peregrine that would come from about 200ft to the fist. I'm sure he will come from any pitch. I haven't shown him a lure in months. I have never tried it with peregrines.

Rgds,
Jannes

I guess it might work.
Some lures are particularly attractive ungarnished.

http://falconryforum.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=126958&stc=1&d=1333579489[/QUOTE]

Haha!

I usually hate photo and movie work, but clearly one falcon "wrangler" got lucky! I guess if Playboy phones you up for a shoot its mats rates from the start! ;-)

I always thought it just doesnt look right bringing the noble Peregrine to the fist, much like it would have looked peculiar back then with the stream of young boys filing up waiting nervously to go into R.Stevens cottage either;)

Well Phil, if ever I am unfortunate enough to have a delinquent tiercel stoop to my fist, I shall heed your post, cast him off in disgust, and scold him for behaving like a lesser falcon... I.e. Gyr, saker, etc...??? :-)

Little Joe
05-04-2012, 03:00 PM
I always thought it just doesnt look right bringing the noble Peregrine to the fist, much like it would have looked peculiar back then with the stream of young boys filing up waiting nervously to go into R.Stevens cottage either;)

Well Phil, if ever I am unfortunate enough to have a delinquent tiercel stoop to my fist, I shall heed your post, cast him off in disgust, and scold him for behaving like a lesser falcon... I.e. Gyr, saker, etc...??? :-)

Little Joe
05-04-2012, 03:22 PM
Hi Sam,

there's no doubt that showing the lure for any reason other than calling a hawk in, will, by degrees, erode its value as a recall device. Blaine obviously understood that to be so, and warns against overuse (any such use might be considered overuse), although it's common to see those warnings ignored.

The cue to call an out of position hawk back into position (I'm making the assumption that 'in position' is somewhere overhead) shouldn't involve the lure at all of course.

Best wishes,

Tony.

Too true Tony about lure value, and as important, response time, but the two concepts are related.

I got my basic falconry training from a gent who learned in turn from Steve Fields? Do I have his name right?

Anyway, doesn't matter. One lays the groundwork for a falcons entire life in the first month at the most. Good hooding, liking the glove and careful pickup will give you a falcon that later flies to the glove. Careful lure intrduction and trade off ensures no mantling or carrying. Correct feeding on the fist also prevents mantling. And very importantly to me, if you beg a bird when its still on the creance, you will always beg the damned thing! Limited window on opportunity to respond is key I think. Personally, I don't call a bird to me if I can tell its mind is elsewhere. Bad response time is habit forming, as is sitting, etc.

Obviously we can fix all these annoying vices later on if we are stuck with a spoiled second hand charge, but hell, its painful, isn't it!

So my point is this - aimed more at the non- believers - you can get any bird to do almost anything, if you lay the groundwork right, and you have a gameplan.

And Maddog, I hear you. Young birds can be independently minded, fair play, but they do settle down into your game plan eventually if you lay the groundwork and stick to your plan. Having said that, I also believe in channelling a bird into a direction its naturally inclined to.

Hope it all makes sense. I have much to learn from you guys, so please interpret posts like these as partly eliciting constructive response.

Rgds,
Jannes

SmallPeregrine
05-04-2012, 03:25 PM
:grin:

Sam we will have to agree to disagree on whether the Captain was driving the stubbles and spotting using high powered Binos as most do today.
In an era of plenty his team of dogs was all he needed.
No doubt the binos came in much needed help when he was Rook hawking, i stand by my assumption that if spotting not bumping and marking was in fashion someone would have made reference to the practise.
If he was spotting why drive the Partridge into cover so he could use his dogs?

You are truely fortunate to have your ground for free and allowed to drive it,running a dog for you is an option.
For those not in the same position running a dog will only serve to draw attention to their activities:grin:

When it comes to lures the Captain states to use a dead bird ,as he was the most sucessfull falconer of modern times why should we doubt his good advice.He learnt the hard way and lost many a good hawk. He advises caution in the use of the lure.
Ronald Stevens choice is a brightly coloured bare lure with no attachments.
Ray appears to be the first to practise swapping the lure on the kill to keep the Falcon sweet to the lure but he also used fail safes when required.
Most of modern falconry is a pick and mix of what suits your neeeds and goals.

Sam may i suggest you and Tony change company if your fellow falconers are always putting you out with errant hawks
The most sucessfull falconers tend to keep their hawks for a good number of seasons .

Kind regards Steve
Eloquently put Steve this post seems to dot the i's and cross the t's:supz:

CloakDaggerTiercel
05-04-2012, 03:41 PM
Wow, how did a thread about a lure for a gamehawk get to 33 pages long:D.
I just use an ungarnished lure pad to call my falcon in. He is very responsive to it as he knows he is about to get a good crop. I cant see how it matters what you use for a lure as long as the end result is the same(lure=good crop). I certainly couldnt be bothered carrying a carcass.

Good sense Dan, I couldn't care less how I or anyone else calls their falcon in, fist, lure or hobnail boot.
If you get an instant response that's all that matters.
It's hilarious what a tizz people get themselves into regarding other peoples choices.
I probably could do without carrying a carcase if it wasn't a pigeon. They are the perfect package and usually end up in the falcons crop.

No mess, no fuss, and a well fed falcon that loves the lure.

Regarding the flashing of the lure to bring a hawk over, it's pretty obvious that 'crying wolf' like this will ruin or diminish the response.

Nick

Little Joe
05-04-2012, 04:00 PM
Good sense Dan, I couldn't care less how I or anyone else calls their falcon in, fist, lure or hobnail boot.
If you get an instant response that's all that matters.
It's hilarious what a tizz people get themselves into regarding other peoples choices.
I probably could do without carrying a carcase if it wasn't a pigeon. They are the perfect package and usually end up in the falcons crop.

No mess, no fuss, and a well fed falcon that loves the lure.

Regarding the flashing of the lure to bring a hawk over, it's pretty obvious that 'crying wolf' like this will ruin or diminish the response.

Nick

Nick, your post gave me warm feeling inside! :-)

Couldn't have said it better in a million years. Word for word!

Rgds,
Jannes

Judd Casper
05-04-2012, 04:56 PM
:grin:

Sam we will have to agree to disagree on whether the Captain was driving the stubbles and spotting using high powered Binos as most do today.
In an era of plenty his team of dogs was all he needed.
No doubt the binos came in much needed help when he was Rook hawking, i stand by my assumption that if spotting not bumping and marking was in fashion someone would have made reference to the practise.
If he was spotting why drive the Partridge into cover so he could use his dogs?

You are truely fortunate to have your ground for free and allowed to drive it,running a dog for you is an option.
For those not in the same position running a dog will only serve to draw attention to their activities:grin:

When it comes to lures the Captain states to use a dead bird ,as he was the most sucessfull falconer of modern times why should we doubt his good advice.He learnt the hard way and lost many a good hawk. He advises caution in the use of the lure.
Ronald Stevens choice is a brightly coloured bare lure with no attachments.
Ray appears to be the first to practise swapping the lure on the kill to keep the Falcon sweet to the lure but he also used fail safes when required.
Most of modern falconry is a pick and mix of what suits your needs and goals.

Sam may i suggest you and Tony change company if your fellow falconers are always putting you out with errant hawks
The most sucessfull falconers tend to keep their hawks for a good number of seasons .

Kind regards SteveSteve from the above post I must count myself successful, as my falcons and tiercels tend to be around for a long time.My last two tiercels and two falcons were flown for a combind 43 seasons?



ATB
Sam

TomOlivia
06-04-2012, 12:16 AM
Steve from the above post I must count myself successful, as my falcons and tiercels tend to be around for a long time.My last two tiercels and two falcons were flown for a combind 43 seasons?



ATB
Sam

Aye, you're about 62 now aren't you Sam?:lol::lol::lol:

Judd Casper
06-04-2012, 08:56 AM
Aye, you're about 62 now aren't you Sam?:lol::lol::lol:Whats up Mike don't you understand the term combined.:?:and that was 43 full seasons.



ATB
Sam

Judd Casper
06-04-2012, 09:10 AM
:grin:

Sam we will have to agree to disagree on whether the Captain was driving the stubbles and spotting using high powered Binos as most do today.
In an era of plenty his team of dogs was all he needed.
No doubt the binos came in much needed help when he was Rook hawking, i stand by my assumption that if spotting not bumping and marking was in fashion someone would have made reference to the practise.
If he was spotting why drive the Partridge into cover so he could use his dogs?

You are truely fortunate to have your ground for free and allowed to drive it,running a dog for you is an option.
For those not in the same position running a dog will only serve to draw attention to their activities:grin:

When it comes to lures the Captain states to use a dead bird ,as he was the most sucessfull falconer of modern times why should we doubt his good advice.He learnt the hard way and lost many a good hawk. He advises caution in the use of the lure.
Ronald Stevens choice is a brightly coloured bare lure with no attachments.
Ray appears to be the first to practise swapping the lure on the kill to keep the Falcon sweet to the lure but he also used fail safes when required.
Most of modern falconry is a pick and mix of what suits your needs and goals.

Sam may i suggest you and Tony change company if your fellow falconers are always putting you out with errant hawks
The most sucessfull falconers tend to keep their hawks for a good number of seasons .

Kind regards SteveSteve I beg to differ as Stanley Allen made reference to using binoculars for spotting game in his article on partridge hawking in Mike Woodfords A Manual of falconry.Also Blaine and Allen hawked together?So there's your reference Steve.


ATB
Sam

Pirate Of Penzance
06-04-2012, 09:57 AM
Steve I beg to differ as Stanley Allen made reference to using binoculars for spotting game in his article on partridge hawking in Mike Woodfords A Manual of falconry.Also Blaine and Allen hawked together?So there's your reference Steve.


ATB
Sam there is little in falconry that has not already been done and most times by some one on the game hawking threads :rolleyes:hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

CloakDaggerTiercel
06-04-2012, 10:35 AM
Aye, you're about 62 now aren't you Sam?:lol::lol::lol:

That must make Tony Brown about 302 :lol:

MadDog
06-04-2012, 11:38 AM
Steve I beg to differ as Stanley Allen made reference to using binoculars for spotting game in his article on partridge hawking in Mike Woodfords A Manual of falconry.Also Blaine and Allen hawked together?So there's your reference Steve.


ATB
Sam

Hi Sam
thank you for that page 72 ,i was right in my assumption if it was practised it would be recorded somewhere.:grin:
Blaine prefered Grouse hawking and did more of it staying on the Grouse moor till October.
That Stanley was a bit of a killer in 1931 334 head of Partridge with 3 Tercels on 3000 acres.Matched by Charles Portal who took 340 head in one season ,with Sibella top scoring with 161 head her best day 3 -1/2 brace
No wonder Mavrogordato was promoting the Starling as the poor mans game bird after his comment now that Partridges are becoming almost annually more scarce.

Kind regards Steve

Judd Casper
06-04-2012, 12:02 PM
Hi Sam
thank you for that page 72 ,i was right in my assumption if it was practised it would be recorded somewhere.:grin:
Blaine prefered Grouse hawking and did more of it staying on the Grouse moor till October.
That Stanley was a bit of a killer in 1931 334 head of Partridge with 3 Tercels on 3000 acres.Matched by Charles Portal who took 340 head in one season ,with Sibella top scoring with 161 head her best day 3 -1/2 brace
No wonder Mavrogordato was promoting the Starling as the poor mans game bird after his comment now that Partridges are becoming almost annually more scarce.

Kind regards SteveNo problem Steve,I knew I'd read about the practice of spotting game somewhere and so long ago, between the two great wars in fact.That still takes nothing away from Martin bringing it back in vogue for the likes of us to practice to this day.Some very impressive bags were made back then.Makes my best season of 74 head with one tiercel a bit poor but most folk would gratefully take that these days.


ATB
Sam

TomOlivia
06-04-2012, 11:25 PM
Whats up Mike don't you understand the term combined.:?:and that was 43 full seasons.



ATB
Sam

Good for you!...it was a joke Sam...like all the others we used to have...mostly at other people's expence:lol:

Judd Casper
07-04-2012, 08:40 AM
Good for you!...it was a joke Sam...like all the others we used to have...mostly at other people's expence:lol:So was my post to you Mike. he he......and Ive never had a laugh at someone else's expense.:lol:



ATB
Sam

SmallPeregrine
07-04-2012, 11:52 PM
Makes my best season of 74 head with one tiercel a bit poor but most folk would gratefully take that these days.


ATB
Sam
Is that the same Tiercel 'Murdoch' that Tony Brown trained:?:

SmallPeregrine
08-04-2012, 04:25 PM
A recap on what has been discussed so far:idea:.
There seems to be two distinct groups of Longwingers.
Those who use a dead Bird (Pigeon, Duck, Pheasant or Chicken etc) to recall their Falcon and those who use the artificial lure (leather pad, tennis ball, sock or gloved hand)
As Nick expressed in an earlier post, does really matter what type of lure you use to bring your Falcon in after a failed flight?
Surely the real emphasis should be how your Falcon performs in flight not what type of lure you use!
As long as your Falcon returns on queue when you present your chosen lure, job is done:idea:.
I notice the Longwingers who use a dead bird are not overly critical of the merits of other luring systems???
What I canít get my head around how can those Longwingers who donít use a dead bird lure say itís detrimental to the Falcon for using a Dead bird but think itís Okay to repeatedly use an un-garnished lure on daily basis:rolleyes::roll:
To be continued...
Regards
Phil

Johny
08-04-2012, 04:36 PM
What I canít get my head around how can those Longwingers who donít use a dead bird lure say itís detrimental to the Falcon for using a Dead bird but think itís Okay to repeatedly use an un-garnished lure on daily basis:rolleyes::roll:


Been pointed out repeatedly on this thread and others - the lure is a bridge to reward, not the reward itself. By showing the whole reward (as per showing a dead bird) you may raise expectations of reward. You lose control that you would otherwise have with a blank bridge. And if not in control, problemo.

Simple concepts for simple people. But still yet these concepts remain beyond some.

CloakDaggerTiercel
08-04-2012, 04:46 PM
Been pointed out repeatedly on this thread and others - the lure is a bridge to reward, not the reward itself. By showing the whole reward (as per showing a dead bird) you may raise expectations of reward. You lose control that you would otherwise have with a blank bridge. And if not in control, problemo.

Simple concepts for simple people. But still yet these concepts remain beyond some.

Why do you think a dead bird can't be used as a blank bridge?

If there was a loss of control people who use dead lures wouldn't still have their falcons. No problemo............

Nick

Little Joe
08-04-2012, 04:50 PM
A recap on what has been discussed so far:idea:.
There seems to be two distinct groups of Longwingers.
Those who use a dead Bird (Pigeon, Duck, Pheasant or Chicken etc) to recall their Falcon and those who use the artificial lure (leather pad, tennis ball, sock or gloved hand)
As Nick expressed in an earlier post, does really matter what type of lure you use to bring your Falcon in after a failed flight?
Surely the real emphasis should be how your Falcon performs in flight not what type of lure you use!
As long as your Falcon returns on queue when you present your chosen lure, job is done:idea:.
I notice the Longwingers who use a dead bird are not overly critical of the merits of other luring systems???
What I canít get my head around how can those Longwingers who donít use a dead bird lure say itís detrimental to the Falcon for using a Dead bird but think itís Okay to repeatedly use an un-garnished lure on daily basis:rolleyes::roll:
To be continued...
Regards
Phil

Good summary Phil.

I realize I'm in the company of superiors, so I shall choose my words carefully...

When you want naughty kid to behave, you first ask nicely, then sternly, then you threaten, then you offer a sweetie, then you give it the key to the sweets cupboard. Once you've given it the key, you have lost all power!

A tennis ball is asking nicely, a dead bird is a sweetie. If for some reason the bird refuses that corpse (which is a damn hassle to have with you every time compared to your tennis ball btw!) You have but one recourse. The key to the cupboard... A live baggy on a string.

That's my reasoning.

But it does no harm to garnish the tennis ball once in a while to remind the bird of its value. Its a kind of different take on the variable reward system.

Rgds,
Jannes

SmallPeregrine
08-04-2012, 04:53 PM
Been pointed out repeatedly on this thread and others - the lure is a bridge to reward, not the reward itself. By showing the whole reward (as per showing a dead bird) you may raise expectations of reward. You lose control that you would otherwise have with a blank bridge. And if not in control, problemo.

Simple concepts for simple people. But still yet these concepts remain beyond some.
Really I've used Dead lure for the last 10yrs or so on my intermewed Teircel and Female Peregrine, up to date havnt created any problemo's as you kindly put it:idea: But heay experience equates to nothing in these discussions:rolleyes:
As you say the simple dead lure concept seems to be beyond some:roll:

Little Joe
08-04-2012, 04:57 PM
As you say the simple dead lure concept seems to be beyond some:roll:

As does a normal garnished leather lure, apparently! ;-)

Let me share an experience to demonstrate. I tracked a tiercel to a telephone pole next to highway a few years ago. Underneath him were three excited young local lads trying to get him down with a live pigeon on a string. I parked 50 metres away, pulled out my ungarnished strips of inner tube, and had my bird on the fist 10 seconds later.

There is no need to give the key of the sweets cupboard every time, if the bird has been trained that it will get its reward when you ask nicely and get a response.

Rgds,
Jannes

SmallPeregrine
08-04-2012, 05:06 PM
Good summary Phil.

I realize I'm in the company of superiors, so I shall choose my words carefully...

When you want naughty kid to behave, you first ask nicely, then sternly, then you threaten, then you offer a sweetie, then you give it the key to the sweets cupboard. Once you've given it the key, you have lost all power!

A tennis ball is asking nicely, a dead bird is a sweetie. If for some reason the bird refuses that corpse (which is a damn hassle to have with you every time compared to your tennis ball btw!) You have but one recourse. The key to the cupboard... A live baggy on a string.

That's my reasoning.

But it does no harm to garnish the tennis ball once in a while to remind the bird of its value. Its a kind of different take on the variable reward system.

Rgds,
Jannes
Jannes
If you Falcon mis behaves its conditioning 99.9% of the time. Whether it be a dead bird, tennis ball, glove she will ignore or chop the lure or fist.
Disciplining a Falcon with a empty lure or no feed because of a miss performance achieves very little or nothing at all apart from disillusioning the Falcon to lures if happens on a regular basis.
I seen Falconers ripping Crows and pigeons out of their Falcons grasp with no reward, instead of realizing its a conditioning mistake. You don't have to do that many times and you create Falcon that a carries on the sight of the approaching Falconer.
I suppose it all boils down to if your seriously hunting your Falcon or just recreational flying?

Johny
08-04-2012, 05:12 PM
Why do you think a dead bird can't be used as a blank bridge?

If there was a loss of control people who use dead lures wouldn't still have their falcons. No problemo............

Nick

There is a risk being run, that's all Nick - never wise to present all your gifts at once.


Really I've used Dead lure for the last 10yrs or so on my intermewed Teircel and Female Peregrine, up to date havnt created any problemo's as you kindly put it:idea: But heay experience equates to nothing in these discussions:rolleyes:
As you say the simple dead lure concept seems to be beyond some:roll:

Riding on luck some folk do, but there does come a time when it might all run out.

Little Joe
08-04-2012, 05:14 PM
Jannes
If you Falcon mis behaves its conditioning 99.9% of the time. Whether it be a dead bird, tennis ball, glove she will ignore or chop the lure or fist.
Disciplining a Falcon with a empty lure or no feed because of a miss performance achieves very little or nothing at all apart from disillusioning the Falcon to lures if happens on a regular basis.
I seen Falconers ripping Crows and pigeons out of their Falcons grasp with no reward, instead of realizing its a conditioning mistake. You don't have to do that many times and you create Falcon that a carries on the sight of the approaching Falconer.
I suppose it all boils down to if your seriously hunting your Falcon or just recreational flying?

Haha!

Phil, you should come see some of the best hunting falcons in the world being trained by their Arab owners when you get the opportunity. My friend, I don't judge or blame you, but you have tunnel vision.

Most of your assumptions are... Well, you know what assumption is the mother of, don't you?! :-D

No offense mate, but broaden your falconry horizons!

Respectfully,
Jannes

Judd Casper
08-04-2012, 05:17 PM
Is that the same Tiercel 'Murdoch' that Tony Brown trained:?:I didn't catch 74 head with Murdoch in any of seasons I flew him. He took around 50 head a season with his cadge partner Spook making it up or over a century of game between the pair each season.

Brian Sullivan
08-04-2012, 05:18 PM
I plan on after the breeding season having a few Falconers over for a lure making session. I will take pictures of the whole process and post them on this thread for the Falconers serious about using a lure. It is the best I have used over the years and was developed by another Falconer.

This lure would be no good for stooping to the lure and prefer to use just a wing tied to pole with the line just a little shorter. A great way to get the larger Falcons in shape and also teach them a little bit about flying.
Frank Beebe used to use one of these on his passage Gyrfalcons and stoop them in very enclosed Country and it was amazing to watch as his Gyrs would go up the side of Evergreen Fir trees to the top before coming back down for the lure. Then he would pick them up feed them a small reward and off to the Duck ponds to catch a Duck. His passage Jerkin's seldom missed any duck coming off a pond!

SmallPeregrine
08-04-2012, 05:22 PM
I tracked a tiercel to a telephone pole next to highway a few years ago. Underneath him were three excited young local lads trying to get him down with a live pigeon on a string. I parked 50 metres away, pulled out my ungarnished strips of inner tube, and had my bird on the fist 10 seconds later.

Rgds,
Jannes
Without prejudice Jannes but I find it hard to believe any hunting Falcon will ignore a live bird on a string whether it be overweight or under weight. Seems to me that your Tiercel is conditioned more on the lure than its predatory instinct?
Regards
Phil

Haha!

Phil, you should come see some of the best hunting falcons in the world being trained by their Arab owners when you get the opportunity. My friend, I don't judge or blame you, but you have tunnel vision.

Most of your assumptions are... Well, you know what assumption is the mother of, don't you?! :-D

No offense mate, but broaden your falconry horizons!

Respectfully,
Jannes
Touchť Jannes you should come and see the best hunting Falcons in Europe and the UK flown by their Falconers if you too get the opportunity.
Like you I don't judge or blame you but you too have bias vision:idea:
No offense Jannes but you need to broaden your Falconry Horizons;)
Yours in sport:supz:
Phil

MadDog
08-04-2012, 05:28 PM
There is a risk being run, that's all Nick - never wise to present all your gifts at once.




Riding on luck some folk do, but there does come a time when it might all run out.


Hi John
i have only ever used dead birds in 28 years of falconry flying daily for long seasons {hunting only} .Cannot ever recall losing a hawk and it makes me smile as opposed to what you suggest all of my falcons leave the dead bird readily for a reward on the fist.
They will do this even when they have made a kill and except the routine of head and neck then jump to the glove for chicks.

Kind regards Steve

Brian Sullivan
08-04-2012, 06:23 PM
Jannes, You are welcome to come here and go hawking. My group does not use frozen birds, live birds on lines, etc.. The Falcons are well trained and we hawk wild bred game and Quarry like winter grouse that challenge the best Falcons in the waiting on game.

Met and saw some amazing Falconers in the Gulf and they for sure are trying to push the limits with conditioning. The amount of passage and captive bred Falcons is hard to match anywhere in the World.

Haggard Tiercel
08-04-2012, 06:24 PM
Hi John
Cannot ever recall losing a hawk...

Kind regards Steve

Didn't you lose a female peregrine at Steve Smith's?

Little Joe
08-04-2012, 06:29 PM
Without prejudice Jannes but I find it hard to believe any hunting Falcon will ignore a live bird on a string whether it be overweight or under weight. Seems to me that your Tiercel is conditioned more on the lure than its predatory instinct?
Regards
Phil


Touchť Jannes you should come and see the best hunting Falcons in Europe and the UK flown by their Falconers if you too get the opportunity.
Like you I don't judge or blame you but you too have bias vision:idea:
No offense Jannes but you need to broaden your Falconry Horizons;)
Yours in sport:supz:
Phil

Haha, yes it was lure bound bird, but I treat killing birds of any group the same.

Is that a personal invitation Mr Myers? :-D

Johny
08-04-2012, 06:34 PM
Hi John
i have only ever used dead birds in 28 years of falconry flying daily for long seasons {hunting only} .Cannot ever recall losing a hawk and it makes me smile as opposed to what you suggest all of my falcons leave the dead bird readily for a reward on the fist.
They will do this even when they have made a kill and except the routine of head and neck then jump to the glove for chicks.

Kind regards Steve

Hi Steve, I appreciate what you and others are saying, and put value to your experience as well - I have only a few seasons hunting falcons, and these then predominantly out of the hood. But it simply seems unnecessary to me to use a dead bird and I have avoided it to reduce inconvenience, and, based on yours and others experience, what appears then as a theoretical risk rather than an actual one.

Until such time as I would have encountered an issue with using a small practical item - a bridge as lure, I can't imagine entertaining the idea of a carcass (although I confess to long luring a falcon to a dead crow to attempt to improve the intended quarry image prior to entering, but never thereafter). I can say then that I don't put fault on the use of a carcass per se, if all in practice is as you have experienced, although I still question the requirement of it. On this matter then overall, each to their own I suppose does apply.

Best Wishes

John

Little Joe
08-04-2012, 06:36 PM
Jannes, You are welcome to come here and go hawking. My group does not use frozen birds, live birds on lines, etc.. The Falcons are well trained and we hawk wild bred game and Quarry like winter grouse that challenge the best Falcons in the waiting on game.

Met and saw some amazing Falconers in the Gulf and they for sure are trying to push the limits with conditioning. The amount of passage and captive bred Falcons is hard to match anywhere in the World.

Thank you Brian, I will see you one day, as sure as summer follows spring. If only to stand and drool uncontrollably at your birds! :-)

You're very right, some Arab birds have a level of fitness, conditioning and commitment that I think is unrivalled anywhere in the world.

Interesting thing regarding lures, Arabs work passage birds from a baggy on a string backwards to a pair of dry houbara wings.

Regards,
Jannes

Hi Steve, I appreciate what you and others are saying, and put value to your experience as well - I have only a few seasons hunting falcons, and these then predominantly out of the hood. But it simply seems unnecessary to me to use a dead bird and I have avoided it to reduce inconvenience, and, based on yours and others experience, what appears then as a theoretical risk rather than an actual one.

Until such time as I would have encountered an issue with using a small practical item - a bridge as lure, I can't imagine entertaining the idea of a carcass (although I confess to long luring a falcon to a dead crow to attempt to improve the intended quarry image prior to entering, but never thereafter). I can say then that I don't put fault on the use of a carcass per se, if all in practice is as you have experienced, although I still question the requirement of it. On this matter then overall, each to their own I suppose does apply.

Best Wishes

John

Very eloquently and logically echoing my own thoughts Johny.

Rgds,
Jannes

Haggard Tiercel
08-04-2012, 06:46 PM
Interesting thing regarding lures, Arabs work passage birds from a baggy on a string backwards to a pair of dry houbara wings.

Regards,
Jannes

Jannes

Dear Jannes

I would guess the houbara wings are used for recall and then only dead and live lures resorted to.

Regards

Jan

Little Joe
08-04-2012, 06:59 PM
Dear Jannes

I would guess the houbara wings are used for recall and then only dead and live lures resorted to.

Regards

Jan

Jan, they start with what passage knows, something to kill, then they give it as a carcass, then the tie the carcass to a lure of dry wings. Within a week of being trapoed a passage falcon will come to only the lure.

But remember, they also do very very intensive manning and waking. Manning falcons at the start of the season is actually a huge social affair for Arabs. Its a very exciting time and guys will sit with their birds around the fire for hours drinking coffee, telling stories and just be bedouin again! Its beautiful to experience.

Rgds,
Jannes

Haggard Tiercel
08-04-2012, 07:04 PM
Sounds great - would like to be there sometime!

I have always been wary of manning falcons if not keen - so be interested in your comments on manning at night, presumably after being fed. Are passage peregrines treated differently to Sakers?

Thanks

Jan

BenBamber
08-04-2012, 07:14 PM
I plan on after the breeding season having a few Falconers over for a lure making session. I will take pictures of the whole process and post them on this thread for the Falconers serious about using a lure. It is the best I have used over the years and was developed by another Falconer.

This lure would be no good for stooping to the lure and prefer to use just a wing tied to pole with the line just a little shorter. A great way to get the larger Falcons in shape and also teach them a little bit about flying.
Frank Beebe used to use one of these on his passage Gyrfalcons and stoop them in very enclosed Country and it was amazing to watch as his Gyrs would go up the side of Evergreen Fir trees to the top before coming back down for the lure. Then he would pick them up feed them a small reward and off to the Duck ponds to catch a Duck. His passage Jerkin's seldom missed any duck coming off a pond!

Have you got a picture of this lure
Cheers Ben

Little Joe
08-04-2012, 07:21 PM
Sounds great - would like to be there sometime!

I have always been wary of manning falcons if not keen - so be interested in your comments on manning at night, presumably after being fed. Are passage peregrines treated differently to Sakers?

Thanks

Jan

Jan, they train a bird for exactly the quarry it should take. Arabs hunt houbara and karowan, that's it in a nutshell.

Manning, well, when you and I think its done, that's where these guys start! You have to see it to believe it. :-)

And I dunno how they do it, but they will rip a falcon off a baggy it just caught, and without reward toss it at another! And that falcon will flie its heart out again and again! Some guys say they starve birds. Will a weak falcon chase four strong pigeons and catch the fourth?

Have you seen the black saker chasing gazelles on youtube? How do you train a bird to take such a beating and still never give up?

I don't know.

Rgds,
Jannes

Haggard Tiercel
08-04-2012, 07:31 PM
I've seen the youtube video - wasn't it a female gyr / peregrine bred in Germany?

As for training to take gazelle, I've got translations of two treatises made by Philpott which describes how chargs (fasri for passage saker I think) were trained. Meat was tied to baggy gazelle to teach the falcons to go to for the head.

On the manning issue, I've always worried about troubling a falcon once fed - seemed to do more harm than good.

Regards

Jan

Little Joe
08-04-2012, 07:46 PM
I've seen the youtube video - wasn't it a female gyr / peregrine bred in Germany?

As for training to take gazelle, I've got translations of two treatises made by Philpott which describes how chargs (fasri for passage saker I think) were trained. Meat was tied to baggy gazelle to teach the falcons to go to for the head.

On the manning issue, I've always worried about troubling a falcon once fed - seemed to do more harm than good.

Regards

Jan

I don't know what it was, but the video link was saker. I gree it mustve been some hybrid.

I'm not promoting any system of manning mate, just telling what I saw. I leave my birds when they ate. My Arab friend had his chase a rc plane flatout foor 5 minutes, then fed her up, then had her unhooded sitting on his knee for the whole evening while kids were running and screaming, youngsters were wheelspinning 4x4s and people were literally laning over the bird to get something. She sat with her foot up!.

This guy, granted, is an exceptional falconer who caught Canadian geese out of the hood with a gyr, but my point is, we have a few things to learn from people who needed falcons to procure food as little as 50 years ago. There art is still semi alive!

Rgds
Jannes

MadDog
08-04-2012, 07:58 PM
Didn't you lose a female peregrine at Steve Smith's?

Hi Jan
Quite correct .
I had cast my falcon off for an intended waiting on flight on Grouse when a pack of Grouse flew to close to us which came from the other end of the moor . It was an oppotunity that Blackeyes would not miss out on,
she chased the pack out of sight never to be seen again . Circumstances always play a part in a loss of a hawk , i had fallen over earlier in the day not knowing i had damaged my reciever ,being the only guy on the legal frequency no one else could help out .Worse to come ,in a later fall i had to give up my search completely as i feared i had broken my ankle, Antony came to my rescue and drove me home all the way from Yorkshire to Hampshire you could not get a better mate.
The hawk was intermewed for 6 seasons and would return after a failed flight so she must have caught her Grouse, if the telemetry had been working properly i would have picked her up on her kill.
She was a check free hawk to her credit but was never seen again which was a bit strange as she was very tame.

Haggard Tiercel
08-04-2012, 08:07 PM
I'm not promoting any system of manning mate, just telling what I saw.

... my point is, we have a few things to learn from people who needed falcons to procure food as little as 50 years ago. There art is still semi alive!

Rgds
Jannes

I appreciate your points - thanks for replies.

Regards

Jan

Haggard Tiercel
08-04-2012, 08:35 PM
Here's the gazelle video

Hunting Falcon - Shaikh Mohd - YouTube

Regards

Jan

Brian Sullivan
08-04-2012, 09:12 PM
Have you got a picture of this lure
Cheers Ben

I will take a picture of the one I have been using since 2006. I am replacing it for next season.

Greg
09-04-2012, 10:37 AM
7 Day Ban!


Thank you Paul, I would however be grateful if you could please explain why I was banned for something that you found perfectly acceptable to quote on the open forum?

SmallPeregrine
09-04-2012, 10:55 AM
Haha, yes it was lure bound bird, but I treat killing birds of any group the same.

Is that a personal invitation Mr Myers? :-D
Hi Joannes
I hope I never come across in my last post insinuating that I had the best Peregrine in the UK, its not my style;)
However if you ever over here in the season your more than welcome to come out with me and my Peregrine:supz:
Regards
Phil

Hawkmaster
09-04-2012, 01:50 PM
Thank you Paul, I would however be grateful if you could please explain why I was banned for something that you found perfectly acceptable to quote on the open forum?
I am not here to explain anything to YOU Greg! I believe you are not stupid and know exactly what it was for and if you REALLY do not know please try and post on this thread again to take it off topic or do not heed my initial post on here!

Man up and sort yourself out! There will be no further discussion about it on the site! Call me if you truly are confused or send me your number and I will pay for the call!:D

Little Joe
09-04-2012, 06:25 PM
Hi Joannes
I hope I never come across in my last post insinuating that I had the best Peregrine in the UK, its not my style;)
However if you ever over here in the season your more than welcome to come out with me and my Peregrine:supz:
Regards
Phil

Much appreciated mate!

However, than facon looks underweight! ;-)

SmallPeregrine
09-04-2012, 06:58 PM
Much appreciated mate!

However, than facon looks underweight! ;-)
I dont know about that but if you come out for a days flying you might change your original assumption :wink:
All the best
Phil

Falcons7
10-04-2012, 11:58 AM
used the daughters pink teddy bear twice and a squeekie toy once , WHEN NEEDS MUST LOL
JEFF



You may be a longwing novice Terry, but that's good advice.
A falcon treated thus, and managed well, will return to her accustomed lure whether it's a winged lure, a dead gamebird, or a tennis ball.

Best wishes,

Tony.

Falcons7
10-04-2012, 01:39 PM
Steve I was going to mention that , quiet a few , myself included use this method ofter a flight and it works really well I think after a flight .
Jeff






Hi Tony,

A good reference to the significance of the falconer's intuition in the making of a good gamehawk.

How to feed, just like what type of lure should be used with a gamehawk... You'll either figure it out, or you won't!

If it was as simple as applying a past-proven recipe we'd all be very bored with things, and none of us would likely take much pride in our accomplishments.

Regards,

Steve

P.S. My gamehawks reliably return to the fist when called. No lure necessary. How's that for a can of worms?!

Nebli
11-04-2012, 10:49 PM
a very humble opinion
dead lure:
good points
natural for a falcon to step on
love to pluck eventually feed on it so reinforcing not a goal in itself but can help.

drawbacks:
management: either you have a friend with bantams not easy to find
or find a substitute for it

cumbersome, you need a big freeze for keeping all those.

if , like me you hunt in the middle of vegetation knee hight and ...wet most of the times it becomes a mess after two times of throwing it for the hawk.

it takes some room in your bag and in the case of pheasants and bantams
they are heavy ,take a pheasant and you find yourself with 4 pounds at least to carry around if the car is not closed by , a bit uncomfortable I think .

pigeons on my experience are not very practical as they litteraly fall to peaces pretty quickly.

not easy to transport around particularly if going to a warm place , for example in spain.

a bit hard to swing around.

artificial lure :
light,easy to store, easy to use.

drawbacks
apart the use of leather lures which are ant hygienic and safe, leather is fine and the best as long as aesthetic criteria are taken into account ,for the rest is second best in almost every aspect .

for me using a leather lure is like using a leather leash , obsolete.
back to the concept of the artificial lure

I basically quite agree with jannes position in that the object is of very little importance as long as the conditioning is correctly done .
and well adapted to your personal situation , do you throw the lure or keep it in hand?
do we use heavy ones that don't get blow in the wind or light ones?
what do you fill it with? something that can absorb water( like by the way leather) or something which doesn't ?
bright color, my case, or you don't mind?
food or not ?they tend to be forgoten which make very often a mess in your bag and not hygienic like pointed out by Phil
both side or one? means that they get muddy at once which isn't particularly attractive for the falcon
if you put a quail it becomes a mess , pigeons in rain becomes dreadful pretty quickly also.

which is the best system? the one that works best for you ( I mean of course the hawk and then you) in you particular circumstances
also I don't think there is any correlation between the shape, or the nature of the lure and their reaction to game they can see the difference between a slighly sick one an another and coudn't see the difference between a rubber"duck" and a real one? that's really human naivety .
that also apply to a dead lure , be it a pheasant or grey lag goose they will notice the difference at once and come very willingly to the dead one and far less so to the really big lively one.
so again as Jannes put it discipline is much part of the game, I disagree about his anecdote of the falcon refusing to come down to a live bait and instantaneously to the artificial one, actually it has probably more to do
with who old the lure or bait and how , body language and trust in his trainer,my falcon will comes most reluctantly to others than myself and ...I like it to be like that not trusting much human nature , I rather prefer her to fly away than being shot at ( happens to me once) or kill by other means that also happen to me
so as in many things
criteria are for me hygiene ( mine are going from time to time in a good chlorine bath)
comfort: easy for the falcon to grab, and land with it not to heavy or the texture to hard, in my case where sometimes the possibility of grounding is not good.
easy to carry and see, mine is red black and white, hard to forget or to unseen
the string in cotton ,more comfortable for swinging around and hold.
can resist ice, sun, rain, acid what ever and remain the same.
and use anywhere.

Dave 3
12-04-2012, 12:46 AM
This thread reminds me of an episode when i was about 13 or 14 and was summoned by mark robb to help him the following morning look for a bird he had lost,(days before telemetery).First light saw a group of 10 to 15 of us on the fields in conversation when mark came round with a bin liner.Grab a lure each he said and everone put their hand in like they were drawing raffle tickets and procured themselves a lure.There was a vast array of lures(none of which would make you go green with envy)from a pidgeon to a bit of carpet on a sting.Me being the youngest and last put my hand in felt around and said there is'nt one.."yes there is" he said "i knew how many were coming and i spent allnight makeing them up":lol: Put my hand in again had a good rummage around and came out with a bit of binliner on a string:confused: I said i'm not having that..he said you should have put your hand in first then,anyway i moaned about it constantly and think i swapped it with one of the others for an upgrade.The bird was back within the hour,picked up by grant i think, not sure which lure on but i did learn a lot from that:)

TomOlivia
12-04-2012, 03:25 AM
This thread reminds me of an episode when i was about 13 or 14 and was summoned by mark robb to help him the following morning look for a bird he had lost,(days before telemetery).First light saw a group of 10 to 15 of us on the fields in conversation when mark came round with a bin liner.Grab a lure each he said and everone put their hand in like they were drawing raffle tickets and procured themselves a lure.There was a vast array of lures(none of which would make you go green with envy)from a pidgeon to a bit of carpet on a sting.Me being the youngest and last put my hand in felt around and said there is'nt one.."yes there is" he said "i knew how many were coming and i spent allnight makeing them up":lol: Put my hand in again had a good rummage around and came out with a bit of binliner on a string:confused: I said i'm not having that..he said you should have put your hand in first then,anyway i moaned about it constantly and think i swapped it with one of the others for an upgrade.The bird was back within the hour,picked up by grant i think, not sure which lure on but i did learn a lot from that:)

It's also a matter of how hungry the hawk is of course! When flying for big pitches it helps (or seems to) if the hawk is a bit 'up'. In this condition, most of them are reluctant to come down to any old lure, especially if they are very high (over 1000ft) and used to being served wild game every time. Although, I suppose if they are used to being lured down from way up there, then they are used to it....I have no experience of this as I've never done that, and tend to serve every time or run on to the next pond or whatever....sometimes the telemetry comes out LOL. Michael.

Dave 3
12-04-2012, 10:47 AM
It's also a matter of how hungry the hawk is of course! When flying for big pitches it helps (or seems to) if the hawk is a bit 'up'. In this condition, most of them are reluctant to come down to any old lure, especially if they are very high (over 1000ft) and used to being served wild game every time. Although, I suppose if they are used to being lured down from way up there, then they are used to it....I have no experience of this as I've never done that, and tend to serve every time or run on to the next pond or whatever....sometimes the telemetry comes out LOL. Michael.
Yes Michael but i also agree with Nebli that birds are very intelligent and obviously know the difference between live and dead pidgeon or pheasant and i was just trying to make the point that before then most of my falconry was drawn from books reccommending leather pad with wings of intended quarry but at the end of the day it just boils down to the falconers preference and if needs must anything will do:lol:

Little Joe
14-04-2012, 03:51 PM
I dont know about that but if you come out for a days flying you might change your original assumption :wink:
All the best
Phil

Just pulling your string my man! :)

as Jannes put it discipline is much part of the game, I disagree about his anecdote of the falcon refusing to come down to a live bait and instantaneously to the artificial one, actually it has probably more to do
with who old the lure or bait and how , body language and trust in his trainer

I used that as an example, but you are right, there can be a variety of possible explanations. The whole thing happened tough, exactly as I told it.

I think it had a lot to do with dress, body language and the "lure" all in combination. But particularly dress. If you walked up dressed like me and used a normal artificial lure, it wouldve been down in a flash. It was by no means attachment to me as a person.

Rgds,
Jannes

Greg
14-04-2012, 11:25 PM
Well back to the original thread, it appears to me that there really is nothing here that is truly new or constructive! The same old things come up time and time again and go round in ever decreasing circles! The only new thing to a lot of people is the tennis ball which I mentioned and that has been used for years by falconers that I know, and some peopleís minds are too closed to contemplate using anything new! Iím sure the vast majority of us will start and finish the next season using the same old tested lures that have served us well in past seasons! To any of you who are contemplating trying something new good luck, I hope it works out well for you!


I still think Lady Gaga wold be good for a Harpy!

SmallPeregrine
15-04-2012, 08:26 AM
Well back to the original thread, it appears to me that there really is nothing here that is truly new or constructive! The same old things come up time and time again and go round in ever decreasing circles! The only new thing to a lot of people is the tennis ball which I mentioned and that has been used for years by falconers that I know, and some peopleís minds are too closed to contemplate using anything new! Iím sure the vast majority of us will start and finish the next season using the same old tested lures that have served us well in past seasons! To any of you who are contemplating trying something new good luck, I hope it works out well for you!


I still think Lady Gaga wold be good for a Harpy!
I can't see the Tennis ball lure really catching on in the Gamehawking fraternity unless you stoop your game hawk to the lure which is a unusual practice:roll:
To be fair I can't see the advantages of the Tennis ball lure over the generic leather pad lure. My concerns using a tennis ball lure if the Falcon ingests any loose rubber or fibres from the Tennis ball:idea:
Seems a bit gimmicky to me

AlexB
15-04-2012, 08:48 AM
You'll have to excuse my complete ignorance on lures for gamehawks, but what exactly should there be if any difference. Surely the point is the bird is made to the lure for recall or for training purposes to stoop to the lure.

I started to read through Ben's thread but then got a bit lost when it went a bit Pete Tong.

So for a level headed lure person, can you please give a bit of clarification to what if any are the real differences to any lure work with gamehawking longwings.

ATB

Alex

FalconGriff
15-04-2012, 08:53 AM
For me I never stoop a game hawk to the lure. I like a lure that I use for stooping to be about (never weighed it ) a bit heavy to drop in my pocket on a Grouse moor. Having said that I have had a couple of Game falcons that would have very little to do with any lure dropping down and then just slashing at them on the ground but with a dead pigeon they would drop straight in and then step off it with no problem?? So maybe its horses for courses and it works it works!

AlexB
15-04-2012, 08:59 AM
For me I never stoop a game hawk to the lure. I like a lure that I use for stooping to be about (never weighed it ) a bit heavy to drop in my pocket on a Grouse moor. Having said that I have had a couple of Game falcons that would have very little to do with any lure dropping down and then just slashing at them on the ground but with a dead pigeon they would drop straight in and then step off it with no problem?? So maybe its horses for courses and it works it works!

TY Griff, as I said level headed. Gamehawking or to be more precise Partridge hawking with a longwing is something I would love to try as I have some cracking land for it, would love to have someone out with a good bird to watch a buit of "try before you buy" so to speak.

ATB

Alex

FalconGriff
15-04-2012, 09:27 AM
Long way from Dover to South Wales!! There must be some local lads would take you up on your offer of a bit of good land to hunt over. With longwings its much easier to handle spectators as it all happens up there so everyone gets a good view.

AlexB
15-04-2012, 09:44 AM
Long way from Dover to South Wales!! There must be some local lads would take you up on your offer of a bit of good land to hunt over. With longwings its much easier to handle spectators as it all happens up there so everyone gets a good view.

There are a couple, but none I would trust to take out. May offer out to get someone to travel down for the weekend. Was fortunate a couple of seasons back to watch Alan Greenhalgs birds flying on some of Ash Barnes land and it was brief but spectacular to say the least.

ATB

Alex

SmallPeregrine
15-04-2012, 12:13 PM
TY Griff, as I said level headed. Gamehawking or to be more precise Partridge hawking with a longwing is something I would love to try as I have some cracking land for it, would love to have someone out with a good bird to watch a buit of "try before you buy" so to speak.

ATB

Alex

There are a couple, but none I would trust to take out. May offer out to get someone to travel down for the weekend. Was fortunate a couple of seasons back to watch Alan Greenhalgs birds flying on some of Ash Barnes land and it was brief but spectacular to say the least.

ATB

Alex
Hi Alex
Get hold of Alan G. when the season get into full swing ask him to take you on his weekly Peregrinations to Steve Williams (Madog) ground in Dorset. Two smashing lads who will show you the ropes:idea:
Atb
Phil

Little Joe
15-04-2012, 04:45 PM
I still think Lady Gaga wold be good for a Harpy!

I'd use Justin Bieber anyday as a baggy, but unfortunately it would be too easy for an eagle to carry... :roll:

Arran
17-04-2012, 08:31 PM
Over the years I have seen many items used as lures ,it can be argued that whatever does the job is fine . Heres a couple of shots of two unlikely lures -though it has to be said they are light in weight & reusable !!! Cheers Ant:lol::lol:

SmallPeregrine
18-04-2012, 06:47 AM
Over the years I have seen many items used as lures ,it can be argued that whatever does the job is fine . !!! Cheers Ant:lol:
Its amazing how you kept the camera straight in the last shot Anthony standing on one leg and all pmsl:lol:

Little Joe
19-04-2012, 06:09 PM
Over the years I have seen many items used as lures ,it can be argued that whatever does the job is fine . Heres a couple of shots of two unlikely lures -though it has to be said they are light in weight & reusable !!! Cheers Ant:lol::lol:

Love it!

I used glove tassle for a while, really worked a charm.

Rgds,
Jannes

127510

Falcons7
20-04-2012, 03:43 AM
Hahahah , I remember these , bet there all the rage at the falconry fair



Over the years I have seen many items used as lures ,it can be argued that whatever does the job is fine . Heres a couple of shots of two unlikely lures -though it has to be said they are light in weight & reusable !!! Cheers Ant:lol::lol:

Raptor_Man
02-05-2012, 03:21 PM
I recently read a olde booke on falconry 1860 ish reprint and the author had been out cast his falcon off she missed the kill and he realised he had forgotten the lure to call her down and then placed a handfull of small stones in a handkerchief and used that he also used his glove at one point.

Little Joe
12-05-2012, 05:56 PM
I recently read a olde booke on falconry 1860 ish reprint and the author had been out cast his falcon off she missed the kill and he realised he had forgotten the lure to call her down and then placed a handfull of small stones in a handkerchief and used that he also used his glove at one point.

It probably depends on many factors, but I've lured escapees and own falcons down with a glove at the end of a piece of string. Once caught a lovely silver jerkin with Arab jesses like this! (Gave him back via microchip info)

Rgds,
Jannes