Natural Breeding From Hybrids

[StoopDoggyDogg]

Hi Terry
there is a bloke in lancashire who manages to breed one chick each year from a female imprint gyr.pere.
He inseminates it with pere semen and has very poor fertilty but manages to breed one bird on average each year, the offspring are indistinguishable from a straight peregrines in looks and size.

never say never

Genes are a lottery

Steve



Hi M8, Nice bird for someone who wants a hunting bird.

I can't believe that any Reputable breeder would sell you a Gyr x Peregrine Female as a potential breeder Male yes Female no, we have known for years that they carry a bad Gene that prohibits them from producing viable offspring, Who was the Breeder? I think that you should name him as it would almost be a fraudulent sale if he sold her to you as a breeding bird, different if he sold here as an incubating bird or a flying bird but to sell her as a breeder is criminal.
All the same she is a nice bird, how old is she?
Terry

[LongVVing]

Because thats the kind of good guy Chris is he has given me falcons for free aswell over the years and really is a top guy and quality falcon breeder.
Michael

The bird was given to me by Chris. He warned me in advance that she was a screamer and I took her on that basis and I hoped to help him to get back some urgently needed space for his breeding project. She turned out to be a very promising bird but the 50-50 Gyr peregrine I bought was definately purchased specifically for breeding purposes and I have the emails from Chris to back that up.

As I have said Chris may well be thinking of a different bird when MoltenMetal mentioned about that one being sold around 8 years ago.

Im not looking to cause problems I have some potential private messages for swaps/purchases (one in particular a swap with a guy on here in Scotland). I do agree with Michael that Chris produces top quality falcons and he will continue to do so in future. I am interested to see how he does with his black falcon.

Im inexperience when it comes to AI falcon propagation and maybe even naieve. I do consider myself to be an open and honest person and would not say anything that I wouldnt know to be true.

Good hawking,

Mark.

[Kentish Falconry]

Hi Terry
there is a bloke in lancashire who manages to breed one chick each year from a female imprint gyr.pere.
He inseminates it with pere semen and has very poor fertilty but manages to breed one bird on average each year, the offspring are indistinguishable from a straight peregrines in looks and size.

never say never

Genes are a lottery

Steve

Hi Steve, Who is this bloke in Lancashire that breeds every year from a Female Gyr x Peregrine? (PM me if you don't want to put his name on here) This is of great interest to me and will also be of great interest for Peter Gill, Mark Robb and many other big breeders around the world. This is the first successfull breeding in the world that we know about.
Many, many breeders have tried to achieve this we have even put Peregrine into Gyr to see if we could do it that way round but without success. I have had fertile eggs and so has Garry Wall and I suspect so have many other breeders but the embryo dies at around 12 days of incubation due to a poisonous gene.
The only known breeder to hatch an egg is Les Boyd (I think) in the USA where one chick hatched when the Gyr x Peregrine was inseminated with a Saker this chick lived for 20 odd days before dieing.
A lot of the German Breeders also tried to breed from this type of bird as well and the evidence of this was submitted to the German Government when there was a problem with Hacking Gyr x Peregrines in Germany. Hacking is now banned in Germany for Gyr X Peregrine because the Males are normally 60% fertile.
So it looks like your friend has acheived something some of the best breeders in the world have failed to do.
Terry

[LongVVing]

Like Terry, I would be interested to know the person who has achieved this success. Could there be some subtle differences in the genes of the particular combination of birds this guy is using that enables him to succeed.

All the best,

Mark.

[MickeyDredd]

Hi Terry
there is a bloke in lancashire who manages to breed one chick each year from a female imprint gyr.pere.
He inseminates it with pere semen and has very poor fertilty but manages to breed one bird on average each year, the offspring are indistinguishable from a straight peregrines in looks and size.


From the above info - i.e. the size and looks of the offspring, and the fact that there is a small breeding success - would this perhaps suggest their is very little gyr in the parent falcon?

[Kentish Falconry]

From the above info - i.e. the size and looks of the offspring, and the fact that there is a small breeding success - would this perhaps suggest their is very little gyr in the parent falcon?

I have to agree with this but I am still at a loss as to how he has managed it and I do feel that there may be some confusion about the breeding birds in question.
The size thing also bothers me as we know that putting Gyr x Pere Tiercel back into Peregrine Female produces a larger bird, so doing it the other way round should produce something even larger not smaller.
We will have to wait and see if we get a reply from StoopDoggyDog on this one
Terry:supz:

[Kentish Falconry]

Hi Terry
there is a bloke in lancashire who manages to breed one chick each year from a female imprint gyr.pere.
He inseminates it with pere semen and has very poor fertilty but manages to breed one bird on average each year, the offspring are indistinguishable from a straight peregrines in looks and size.

never say never

Genes are a lottery

Steve

Steve..............Are you going to answer these Questions????

[BlackShaheen1]

yea i would like to know who breeds from a female gyr pere also must be a bloody good breeder

[StoopDoggyDogg]

Hi Terry
So you have been trying along with other people to breed from a female Gyr/pere ?
So why is it so inconcieveable that Chris Southern genuinely sold one as a potential breeding bird ?
As for the a male gyr/peregrine being a better potential as a breeding bird, correct me if i'm wrong but a hybrid semen donor is a complete waste of time and again a lottery. The sperm are either mainly gyr or peregrine(genetically) and as only one sperm can fertilise the egg, you get unpredictable offspring. Whereas with a female hybrid the ovary produces a combined genetic make up. So to produce a true tri-bred or a 3/4 the semen donor has to be pure and the female a hybrid. (unless your talking gyrs and sakers obviously). I have researched this at length, but admittedly only on studies of laboratory rodents and farm animals not raptors.
As for the bloke who breeds from the female gyr/pere, i won't give any bull, i have been told about them through a lad called Ryan Williams who may be on here. I have not seen them myself and i have never met the bloke.


Steve

:rolleyes:








Hi Steve, Who is this bloke in Lancashire that breeds every year from a Female Gyr x Peregrine? (PM me if you don't want to put his name on here) This is of great interest to me and will also be of great interest for Peter Gill, Mark Robb and many other big breeders around the world. This is the first successfull breeding in the world that we know about.
Many, many breeders have tried to achieve this we have even put Peregrine into Gyr to see if we could do it that way round but without success. I have had fertile eggs and so has Garry Wall and I suspect so have many other breeders but the embryo dies at around 12 days of incubation due to a poisonous gene.
The only known breeder to hatch an egg is Les Boyd (I think) in the USA where one chick hatched when the Gyr x Peregrine was inseminated with a Saker this chick lived for 20 odd days before dieing.
A lot of the German Breeders also tried to breed from this type of bird as well and the evidence of this was submitted to the German Government when there was a problem with Hacking Gyr x Peregrines in Germany. Hacking is now banned in Germany for Gyr X Peregrine because the Males are normally 60% fertile.
So it looks like your friend has acheived something some of the best breeders in the world have failed to do.
Terry

[StoopDoggyDogg]

Hi
How would you get very little gyr into a peregrine ?

Steve


From the above info - i.e. the size and looks of the offspring, and the fact that there is a small breeding success - would this perhaps suggest their is very little gyr in the parent falcon?

[StoopDoggyDogg]

Hi again Terry
I hope i'm not coming across as a controversial, argumentative arrogant ****.
I have a theory which i'd like your learned opinion on. White gyrs fetch a lot of money and so do blacks. Greys not so much.
Is it concieveable that gyrs are being widespread inbred for colour, just like pedigree dogs are inbred for type etc ?
Could this explain why greys are commonly percieved as being larger. Due to inbreeding depression of the whites and blacks ?
Inbreeding increases the likelihood of traits being passed on due to genes becoming homozygous. So if someone were to produce 2 white gyrs ( brother and sister ) from say, for example a Grey and a white. If they, then mated the siblings the likelihood of solely white offspring would increase dramatically ?
I've read about some canadians which have inbred a pure white jerkin into his whitetest daughter, then into his next generation whitest daughter then the next etc. Then they selected the whitetest male out of the last generation, which produced only pure white progency out of grey gyrs. Successful inbreeding!!
I appreciate this doesn't affect us, because us British peasants cant afford beautiful show stock gyrs and when you hybridize it you get the heterozgosity back and the peasants get a useful hawk, the waste product. A male G.P.

Do you think inbreeding is widespread in captive breeding due to the money involved ?

Steve





I have to agree with this rebut I am still at a loss as to how he has managed it and I do feel that there may be some confusion about the breeding birds in question.
The size thing also bothers me as we know that putting Gyr x Pere Tiercel back into Peregrine Female produces a larger bird, so doing it the other way round should produce something even larger not smaller.
We will have to wait and see if we get a reply from StoopDoggyDog on this one
Terry:supz:

[OutFlying]

Is that the Dingle factor ?

[Tim Laycock]

Quality :lol:

[Kentish Falconry]

Hi again Terry
I hope i'm not coming across as a controversial, argumentative arrogant ****.
1, Hi Steve...........Every one is entitled to an oppinion this is after all a Falconry Forum

I have a theory which i'd like your learned opinion on. White gyrs fetch a lot of money and so do blacks. Greys not so much.
Is it concieveable that gyrs are being widespread inbred for colour, just like pedigree dogs are inbred for type etc ?
2. Yes Line Breeding is used in birds of prey just as it is in Dogs & Cats, Unfortunatley we do not have access to wild stock in the UK so we have to make the best of available stock. Some Breeders will not sell their Gyrs to another breeder so it is not always possible to get totally unrelated blood lines
So we are forced to line breed wether we like it or not. I do my best to breed a White Gyr to a White Gyr and a Black to a Black.

Could this explain why greys are commonly percieved as being larger. Due to inbreeding depression of the whites and blacks ?
3, Grey Gyrs are not allways the largest with the exception of the Icelandic Gyr, I have seen recorded weights and measurements for Silver Gyrs that would astound you.

Inbreeding increases the likelihood of traits being passed on due to genes becoming homozygous. So if someone were to produce 2 white gyrs ( brother and sister ) from say, for example a Grey and a white. If they, then mated the siblings the likelihood of solely white offspring would increase dramatically ?
4, To produce a White Gyr from a Female Grey the Female would have to be split for White, Colour morphs in Gyr Falcons are not from dominant genes they would appear to be recessive and in some cases sex linked if you were to mate back a split white Gyr to a White Gyr then you have a better chance of producing a White bird from the mateing, at the same time if you mated a pair of Grey Gyrs with White Gyr Genetics then you could also produce a White Gyr although the % chance of this would be lower.

I've read about some canadians which have inbred a pure white jerkin into his whitetest daughter, then into his next generation whitest daughter then the next etc. Then they selected the whitetest male out of the last generation, which produced only pure white progency out of grey gyrs. Successful inbreeding!!
5, This is line Breeding and the Grey Genetic has been almost bred out of the chicks however it is not imposible for a throw back to appear such as a Silver or a Grey at a later stage. As I said White is not a dominant gene.

I appreciate this doesn't affect us, because us British peasants cant afford beautiful show stock gyrs and when you hybridize it you get the heterozgosity back and the peasants get a useful hawk, the waste product. A male G.P.
Do you think inbreeding is widespread in captive breeding due to the money involved ?

6, As i said earlier UK breeders do not have access to Wild Taken Gyrs and we are stuck with what we have got so we have to, to some extent, line breed. It is not just a case of not being able to afford the best quality Gyrs available the problem is getting the paperwork for them to import them in the first place. I don't think you know the problems we face on a regular basis with CITES.
Gyr x Peregrine are not, as you class it a waste product, these are designer birds produced to forfill a market, the Middle East, The Arabs hunt with both Males & Females, the majority of Gyr x Peregrines are exported but some remain in the UK.

Steve

ATB
Terry

[LongVVing]

Although my initial reason for starting this thread was to find out what options are open to me regarding my bird. The postings regarding the genetics around this subject I find very interesting so regardless of peoples opinions and whether they agree one way or another (like Terry says it is a forum after all) please continue to post any experiences or thoughts.


All the best,

Mark.

[Kentish Falconry]

Hi Terry
So you have been trying along with other people to breed from a female Gyr/pere ?
So why is it so inconcieveable that Chris Southern genuinely sold one as a potential breeding bird ?
As for the a male gyr/peregrine being a better potential as a breeding bird, correct me if i'm wrong but a hybrid semen donor is a complete waste of time and again a lottery. The sperm are either mainly gyr or peregrine(genetically) and as only one sperm can fertilise the egg, you get unpredictable offspring. Whereas with a female hybrid the ovary produces a combined genetic make up. So to produce a true tri-bred or a 3/4 the semen donor has to be pure and the female a hybrid. (unless your talking gyrs and sakers obviously). I have researched this at length, but admittedly only on studies of laboratory rodents and farm animals not raptors.
As for the bloke who breeds from the female gyr/pere, i won't give any bull, i have been told about them through a lad called Ryan Williams who may be on here. I have not seen them myself and i have never met the bloke.


Steve

:rolleyes:

Hi Steve
First I have to say I am not having a go at Chris Southern, I know Chris and to say the least I am a little suprised that he was the breeder behind this bird. In his own words he said he genuinly did not know that it was imposible to breed from this type of Hybrid at the time he Imprinted the bird. He also stated he did not sell the bird for breeding purposes. This is between him and LongVVing (Mark) and has nothing to do with us. He asked that he be contacted by phone and I have passed this message on as requested
.
Yes I think all breeders tried to breed from Female Gyr x Peregrines at one time or another not only in the UK but worldwide. We all gave up when we found it was not possible, a bit like Mules in finches and canaries. But this is not recent it is some years ago.
You seem to have the impression that breeding from a Gyr x Peregrine Male is a waste of time this is not the case, I know a few breeders that produce 3/4 Gyr x Peregrines where a Gyr x Peregrine Male is put back into Pure Gyr falcon or into Peregrine Females to produce 1/4 Gyr x Peregrines.
All i said was that a Male Gyr x Pere was a better bet as a breeder because it is normally fertile whilst the Female is not.
You say the semen from a Male Gyr x Pere will be either Gyr or Pere how do you work this out? mathmatically I suppose you are right but in practice this is not the case. I bred from a Gyr x Pere by accident, I had a pair of birds a Male Gyr x Pere and a Female Gyr x Saker for years these birds have hatched and reared outstanding White 3/4 Gyr x Sakers, The male always courted the Female and we Inseminated the Female with White Gyr semen last year however the Male copulated with the Female and fertilised all the eggs, we did not know he had become fertile and carried on Inseminating but all the chicks turned out to be Gyr/Peregrine x Gyr/Saker not what we wanted at all.
The reason I am talking about this is that if we listen to what you think then we should have got some 3/4 Gyrs and some Peregrinex Gyr/Sakers not a tribred mix.
If you were to tell me you were doing research work on Falcons etc instead of Rats and Mice and that you had come to this conclusion of yours using Falcons then what you are saying would make some sense but unfortunatley the genetics of Falcons do not work in the same way as Rodents or Primates
So you go away and breed these birds and when you can scientifically prove I am wrong please get back to me.
As for the Guy who is produceing viable chicks each year from a Female Gyr x Peregrine and as your info has come 3rd hand from some one called Ryan Williams I can only assume that somewhere along the line there has been a mix up of information because if someone had acheived this the word would get out and he would be offered a lot of money for this female.
ATB
Terry

[GameHawker]

I think the guy who breed from his gyr/peregrine female is called Barry Holland he is a friend of Derreck Stotton.

[StoopDoggyDogg]

Fair enough Terry,
the only thing i've bred is kids, but how do you know what the offspring of the g.p x g.s. really are? Could you put your life on it, that the young are not pere x gyr-sakers. What weight were they?
I briefly flew a gyr/peregrine x merlin male, and as far as i could gather it was indistinguishable from a gyr x merlin, in weight and looks. it had no resemblence to a peregrine and had no desire to wait on. it was a lot faster than a perlin and could out perform one in agility, the breeder said the offfspring varied enormously in size, to the point where he could barely sex them until all had fledged.
I saw a gyr/pere x pere male fly this season at 1lb 9, it looked just like a g.p. My mate flys a male g.p. at 1lb 9 bred by peter gill, if you put them on a cadge next to each other, it would be impossible to tell the difference in parenthood.
I'm not saying i'm right and your wrong, but there is no doubt that in mammals and rodents a hybrid male has semen containing sperms from both parents. In cattle breeding in america, they have herds of up to a million cows which are inseminated from as few as 30 bulls. This is a big money industry and the genetic research is not based on someone guessing what the offspring are genetically made up of, by how they look. Hybrid males are never used, only pure males are used with hybrid females. I shall look into it further and let you know my findings, regarding raptors. Me breeding my own would prove nothing.
Commonly line breeding is not breeding father into daughter and then grand daughter etc, (ie the canadians). That is in-breeding. Line breeding is where both parents share common ancestors, generations back.
Regarding the G.P female, there was no confusion about the parentage, i was told in detail about the pere x pere-gyrs. But it could be a fishermans tale. I'll p.m. you his contact details and you can interrogate him yourself if you wish. I'm no bull****ter.

ATB

Steve









Hi Steve
First I have to say I am not having a go at Chris Southern, I know Chris and to say the least I am a little suprised that he was the breeder behind this bird. In his own words he said he genuinly did not know that it was imposible to breed from this type of Hybrid at the time he Imprinted the bird. He also stated he did not sell the bird for breeding purposes. This is between him and LongVVing (Mark) and has nothing to do with us. He asked that he be contacted by phone and I have passed this message on as requested
.
Yes I think all breeders tried to breed from Female Gyr x Peregrines at one time or another not only in the UK but worldwide. We all gave up when we found it was not possible, a bit like Mules in finches and canaries. But this is not recent it is some years ago.
You seem to have the impression that breeding from a Gyr x Peregrine Male is a waste of time this is not the case, I know a few breeders that produce 3/4 Gyr x Peregrines where a Gyr x Peregrine Male is put back into Pure Gyr falcon or into Peregrine Females to produce 1/4 Gyr x Peregrines.
All i said was that a Male Gyr x Pere was a better bet as a breeder because it is normally fertile whilst the Female is not.
You say the semen from a Male Gyr x Pere will be either Gyr or Pere how do you work this out? mathmatically I suppose you are right but in practice this is not the case. I bred from a Gyr x Pere by accident, I had a pair of birds a Male Gyr x Pere and a Female Gyr x Saker for years these birds have hatched and reared outstanding White 3/4 Gyr x Sakers, The male always courted the Female and we Inseminated the Female with White Gyr semen last year however the Male copulated with the Female and fertilised all the eggs, we did not know he had become fertile and carried on Inseminating but all the chicks turned out to be Gyr/Peregrine x Gyr/Saker not what we wanted at all.
The reason I am talking about this is that if we listen to what you think then we should have got some 3/4 Gyrs and some Peregrinex Gyr/Sakers not a tribred mix.
If you were to tell me you were doing research work on Falcons etc instead of Rats and Mice and that you had come to this conclusion of yours using Falcons then what you are saying would make some sense but unfortunatley the genetics of Falcons do not work in the same way as Rodents or Primates
So you go away and breed these birds and when you can scientifically prove I am wrong please get back to me.
As for the Guy who is produceing viable chicks each year from a Female Gyr x Peregrine and as your info has come 3rd hand from some one called Ryan Williams I can only assume that somewhere along the line there has been a mix up of information because if someone had acheived this the word would get out and he would be offered a lot of money for this female.
ATB
Terry

[StoopDoggyDogg]

it appears someone else has heard of the female g.p. breeding.

steve

Steve..............Are you going to answer these Questions????

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

Even if someone has/had bred one, what is the point to this. Its not a reliable cross even if it did work as a caught one egg once thing. Move on guys theres more in the world than this!

[MickeyDredd]

Hi
How would you get very little gyr into a peregrine ?

Steve

Perhaps my post was suggesting there was no Gyr in the parent :roll:

[Paco]

In the book "Birds of Prey,medicine and management" by Manfred Heidenreich
((pag 245).He says is reported the hibridation amog female gyr-per whit male gyr.

[Kentish Falconry]

In the book "Birds of Prey,medicine and management" by Manfred Heidenreich
((pag 245).He says is reported the hibridation amog female gyr-per whit male gyr.

He is incorrect I am afraid, tell him to talk to Kurt Kilian he was the person he was talking about. He had fertile eggs but they never hatched.
Terry

[Paco]

And what about 3/4 per-gyr female. ¿Are totally fertile? ¿is there any problem to breed whit this female in incubation , hatching etc

Thanks.

[Kentish Falconry]

And what about 3/4 per-gyr female. ¿Are totally fertile? ¿is there any problem to breed whit this female in incubation , hatching etc

Thanks.

3/4 Gyr x Peregrines are produced by using a Tiercel Gyr x Pere and the fertility rate is good but the hatchability is poor.
I have also today talked at length with Derek Stotton re the fertile Gyr x Pere and it appears that this Female has produced chicks for the last 3 years
it is not a Gyr x Pere though but it is a Pere x Gyr Female mated to a Gyrx Pere/Saker 1 chick was hatched and is being flown by the breeder from 2005 in 2004 2 chicks were hatched but died falling off the nest ledge in a storm.
So I appologise :oops: and retract what I said but this is without doubt a world first and many breeders have tried to do this and in this case the breeder is not or was not a breeder he is a falconer. I will not go into detail too much about this as Derek has joined the Forum and will in time when he has found his way around here give the full story. I will however point out that the guy named as breeder is not the correct person
Terry:supz:

[Berkut]

3/4 Gyr x Peregrines are produced by using a Tiercel Gyr x Pere and the fertility rate is good but the hatchability is poor.
I have also today talked at length with Derek Stotton re the fertile Gyr x Pere and it appears that this Female has produced chicks for the last 3 years
it is not a Gyr x Pere though but it is a Pere x Gyr Female mated to a Gyrx Pere/Saker 1 chick was hatched and is being flown by the breeder from 2005 in 2004 2 chicks were hatched but died falling off the nest ledge in a storm.
So I appologise :oops: and retract what I said but this is without doubt a world first and many breeders have tried to do this and in this case the breeder is not or was not a breeder he is a falconer. I will not go into detail too much about this as Derek has joined the Forum and will in time when he has found his way around here give the full story. I will however point out that the guy named as breeder is not the correct person
Terry:supz:
Terry,
Just an example of what you are saying.
I put a 2yr old white gyr/peregrine male in with a gyr/saker female.
He fertilised 4/4 eggs and hatched 2/4.The 3 years since he has been in with a silver gyr.Up to now his fertility rate has been 100% ,however the hatch rate has been exactly 50% regardless of natural incubation or otherwise.
Regards.

[Kentish Falconry]

Terry,
Just an example of what you are saying.
I put a 2yr old white gyr/peregrine male in with a gyr/saker female.
He fertilised 4/4 eggs and hatched 2/4.The 3 years since he has been in with a silver gyr.Up to now his fertility rate has been 100% ,however the hatch rate has been exactly 50% regardless of natural incubation or otherwise.
Regards.

Are you going the natural incubation route or are you using incubators?
You hatch rate is about average for this Hybrid and I have found the same results here, even though it was an unintentional mateing,
I have found that by giving about 10 days of natural incubation that the rates of Hatch improve dramatically with other hybrids but with the Gyr x Pere they remain the same.
Perhaps Sara (ATFHB) would like to comment on this when she sees it as I saw a stunning White 3/4 Gyr Pere of theirs in Abu Dhabi last year.
We only do Gyr/Pere x Gyr/Saker these are in fact a very good hybrid and the Arabs call them a Super Mix, the downside is that they do not make massive chicks but they are rapid, we had one last year that we called The Rocket and would just kick into overdrive and overhaul anything in the Hack Pen when they were flying
ATB
Terry

[LongVVing]

I have come to the conclusion that although not impossible (never say never I guess), the success rate in relation to the effort put in to breeding from a 50-50 Gyr pere female is so low that for me atleast its not worth it.

Thanks to all who have contributed to this and the original thread.

All the best,

Mark.