Goshawks, will they or won't they?

[Brit-Gos]

I am trying to breed Finnish Goshawks. The problem is how to tell false conditioning? The pair was together last year and copulated well but all the eggs where infertile. After her term sitting i swapped the eggs for a Harris chick & both birds raised the chick just fine.
My birds had the solid barrier in their aviary dropped late Feb after the initial bouncing around they settled well. 2 weeks ago the female was calling like mad, cupping & showing her tail coverts while running up & down the perch. The male would fly down to her and look franticly for a way in. When the barrier was lifted WOW 2 different birds the female stopped showing & the male was a twittering wreck flying around the aviary. So the mesh barrier was raised & they were separated. to be continued...

[Brit-Gos]

Continued..
When they had settled it all started again, female calling & cupping male trying to get in with her this time he tried pushing twigs through the mesh. So again the barrier was dropped (at night). The female was trying to sit next to the male but he was having none of it and twittered around the aviary. This time he really ****ed the female off and she started to chase him screaming and mantling, so up went the barrier for a 2nd time.
I realize that the male is not in condition but it does not seem that way when he is stopped by the mesh barrier. Is it because he knows that the female can not get to him and his confidence is higher? Also the cold spell we have just had will have decreased their condition. Any help on this will be very much appreciated.

[Goldie]

You don't mention what stage of nest building they are at and if there is a nest in both avieries (apart from him trying to push a twig through the mesh. Is there any attempted food passing etc from the male ?
My gosses have been calling for a while and the male has been very active for a couple of weeks or more but only since last week has the female started to nest build. This is a proven pair and its only now i am thinking about letting the male in (next 2 or 3 days) You have still time on yourside as i wouldn't expect your birds will lay till 1st wk in April.
Also, don't be so sure that its the male thats not in condition, I have found in the past that if the Female IS in condition and the male NOT, she will accept him being there.
As to the change in weather, yes it can knock them back off the boil if they hadn't fully came into condition but once they are copulating etc then it doesn't make much difference.

[Kentish Falconry]

You don't mention what stage of nest building they are at and if there is a nest in both avieries (apart from him trying to push a twig through the mesh. Is there any attempted food passing etc from the male ?
My gosses have been calling for a while and the male has been very active for a couple of weeks or more but only since last week has the female started to nest build. This is a proven pair and its only now i am thinking about letting the male in (next 2 or 3 days) You have still time on yourside as i wouldn't expect your birds will lay till 1st wk in April.
Also, don't be so sure that its the male thats not in condition, I have found in the past that if the Female IS in condition and the male NOT, she will accept him being there.
As to the change in weather, yes it can knock them back off the boil if they hadn't fully came into condition but once they are copulating etc then it doesn't make much difference.

Good reply Goldie and much the same as I have told him by PM, I sugested that he put this up as a post as it is always better to have other oppinions especially with Goshawks, so come on you Gos boys lets get a decent Gos breeding thread going.
Terry

[HawkMan69UK]

sssssssssssssssssssssshhhhhhhhhhush its a secret :roll: :D

[Blaze]

When breeding gosses do you still have to seperate the adult birds once they have raised the young?..Or can you leave a proven pair together all year round?...

[Goldie]

When breeding gosses do you still have to seperate the adult birds once they have raised the young?..Or can you leave a proven pair together all year round?...

Gosses are a law unto themselves. Some breeders will seperate the parents (take the male out) before the young are branching and some like myself remove the male once the young have fledged.
It is highly recommended that the adults are seperated all year round apart from breeding time as no matter how bonded the pair is she WILL kill him eventually if left together. A good friend of mine had a pair together 24/7 for nearly 5 yrs and they had raised about 20 chicks, she killed him last january:cry: It is not an isolated incident either and always better to split them up. Females tend to get more aggressive as they get older

[Goldie]

A point to remember is that once a female has killed a male, there is a high risk that she will do the same if a replacement is introduced as well.
I also feel that a female that has been manned but not ever hunted is a safer bet for breeding as she has never had a need to develop a killer instinct.

[HawkMan69UK]

here is a few diary moments from this year last years i cant find most is on the pc hours and hours of it .........#
friday 3rd march:- my birds at the moment the female is keking from dawn to dusk her cavits are down wayyyyyyy down he is carring food calling his knicker are down a lot of the time there both carrinying bits of branches ..he kills his in mock battles.... never any aggresion between the two siiting on either side of the psartition ....so fingers crossed...

tues 7 march:-my intermewed female mia ... has started calling when my beeding pair are calling wiill this effect them at all ...so from 6 am my nieghbours love me.....

Fri Mar 10 ...major nest building been going on for days now femal always keking male too...attempted food passes both showing obvious sighns of condition

sat march 18 .. they have been together 3 days ago i seen them copulate about 15 times now within camera shot not sue what there doing outside of this but plenty of activity making nest and carrying calling

so far the wife been in tears(of happyness) because she witnised copulation now we all sit around the cctv while he food passes and copulats...im knackerd sleeping on a camp bed in the cctv room so i dont miss the action......so far the longest time he has been on her is 11 1/2 secounds wot a row even i dont make that much noise

and my hat goes off to the larger breeders.....you must be walking around like zombies http://www.phpbber.com/phpbb/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif ...but there is one thing i have definatly learnt its not just one thing your looking for it is a combination of a lot of things then the penny drops you can only be told about a certian amount of things the rest you just gotta learn..........i love learning

sun march 19...what im doing every night he goes in his side.i shut him down. by morning he is ready and copulates within a few minutes....then they build the nest then another copulation then rest.....then about 3 ish put him away againfor an hour let him feed and open back up and he straight in there again... been doing it for 3/4 days and its working http://www.phpbber.com/phpbb/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif

mon 20 march fed him this morning let him pluck then he calls open them up she comes through starts to eat he copulates then nest builds the time now is 10 50 and they have copulated 11 times...now 1054 make that12

[Goldie]

HawkMan69UK........you quote(

sun march 19...what im doing every night he goes in his side.i shut him down. by morning he is ready and copulates within a few minutes....then they build the nest then another copulation then rest.....then about 3 ish put him away againfor an hour let him feed and open back up and he straight in there again... been doing it for 3/4 days and its working http://www.phpbber.com/phpbb/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif)

What is the reasoning behind this repeated seperation and how long do you continue doing it ?

[HawkMan69UK]

im still on a learning curve..the reason i do it mainly to give him a rest so he can eat in peace..the other is safty of the male although they sit next to each other or within a few feet all day.. it puts my mind at rest and ill probely stop tommorrow or the day after...but one thing i can see he is soooooooo up for it when that slide goes across and so is she...

[Blaze]

Gosses are a law unto themselves. Some breeders will seperate the parents (take the male out) before the young are branching and some like myself remove the male once the young have fledged.
It is highly recommended that the adults are seperated all year round apart from breeding time as no matter how bonded the pair is she WILL kill him eventually if left together. A good friend of mine had a pair together 24/7 for nearly 5 yrs and they had raised about 20 chicks, she killed him last january:cry: It is not an isolated incident either and always better to split them up. Females tend to get more aggressive as they get olderThanks for the reply!..

[HawkMan69UK]

i have been counting how many times the birds copulate during the day from 730 to 9.....5 times
from 9 to 10......4 times
from 10 to 11....3 times
from 11 to 12....4 times
from 12 ti 1.00...0
from 1.00 to 2 ..4 times
from 2 to 3......3 times
from 3 1 at the mo

he is a better man than i am:P

[HawkMan69UK]

twice now from 3 o clock

[HawkMan69UK]

from 3 to 4 oclock ...4 the last one dead on 4 oclock........obviously food plays an important role in all this but not all copulation occours when she is feeding i would say from observing over the lst few days 2 out of 5 seem to happen out of the blue one minute there sat there no noise next his on and there at it

[Brit-Gos]

Goldie,
Thanks for the reply. The female is not doing much nest building. a nest is only in the female's side of the aviary. I have not seen the male pass food as yet. The female lays fairly regullarly on 28th March. Last season the male copulated well but no eggs where fertile.

[HawkMan69UK]

brit gos you say your female fairly regualry lays on the 28 march how many seasons have you been trying...just curious....and which factors are greatest in infertile eggs...male not prodcing or miising/female not ready or can the list be endless???/

[HawkMan69UK]

and i think the last of the day between 4 and now twice the last one a few mins ago.........just before and just after frantic nest building goes on i asume this renforces the pair bond?????

[HawkMan69UK]

posted that a bit early just done it again........:shock: ...i know this is early but its still bloody exciting

[HawkMan69UK]

and 1 more total for today 27 and i went out for a bit ..slide him down now let him feed in peace and see what tommorrow brings...never watched tv for so long im knackerd:rolleyes: :yawinkle:

[Brit-Gos]

Hawkman69uk,
I got the female off a friend of mine, he had been trying to breed from her for 2 years but the male he had had no confidence due to being caught by another female he tried him with. His records and my last season confirmed the date of 28th March. Sorry don't know enough to comment of condition / fertility of males.

[Brit-Gos]

Sitting here thinking about the reply's would it be feasable to build a vertical bared divider that just the male can fit through so he could join the female when he was ready and not be forced by dropping a barrier. Would this eliminate the human error of getting the timming wrong. Just a thought any comments?

[OutFlying]

The male usually freezes when the female gets aggressive and would probably be nailed before it got through the bars. The sliding door is the best option, also providing cover for the male to hide in or behind is another option.

Jim.

[Brit-Gos]

Does the size of the seperating opening matter? should it be small say 4ft sq or large say width of aviary?

[OutFlying]

4ft would be ample

[Brit-Gos]

Is that 4ft sq in a mesh barrier or solid? and would a large opening not open up a greater territory for the pair and give the male more room for maneuvering? if needed.

[Goldie]

For what its worth Brit-Gos, my Goshawk aviery is 22ft x 12 x 9 split at 12 ft for female and the other 10 for male the centre partition is solid up to 5ft and the top 4ft is split in 3 parts each 4ft wide, the centre one being 2 inch weld mesh which is double skinned 4 inches apart to prevent female grabbing through. either side of this mesh part is a 12 inch board that they can sit on. Both birds can see each other 24/7 all year round but can only get together when i slide the partition open.
Both birds have nest ledges and baths plus plucking post and a high perching area and each is a mirror image of the other. They both build nests of their own but when put together they always choose the female one.
The male starts twigging about 2 wks before she does and i believe its his increased activity of flying around with twigs and food etc that triggers her off I have found that this type of set up is perfect for me and they breed very well.

[Brit-Gos]

Goldie,
Is it only the centre of your partition that slides and do you think that the nest in the male's part contribute to your breeding sucess? My aviary also has individual baths, plucking places and various perches as well as a perch either side of the movable partition. But my movable partition is 3/4 of the total width do you think this is to large? and why.

[OutFlying]

Is your movable partition solid or can the female gos see the male through all of it ?

I think a smaller partition that allows the male some privacy is the better option, I don't think he feels secure if in her view all the time before the divide goes back.

Jim.

[Brit-Gos]

Outflying,
I have 2 downward sliding partitions 1 solid & 1 mesh. I keep them both up after the breeding season & up till February. Then i drop the soild one so the birds can see each other.

[OutFlying]

The ones I've seen are double layered mesh, so the pair are visible all year BUT due to the smallish size of opening the male can avoid the female if needed.

Jim.

[Goldie]

Goldie,
Is it only the centre of your partition that slides and do you think that the nest in the male's part contribute to your breeding sucess? My aviary also has individual baths, plucking places and various perches as well as a perch either side of the movable partition. But my movable partition is 3/4 of the total width do you think this is to large? and why.

Yes, it is only the centre that slides but the solid parts either side offer privacy for the male should he decide to use them as a blind and i do personaly think that the male having a nest is beneficial.

[HawkMan69UK]

a very simplyified version im no artist:roll: size is 22 foot long split down the middle by 9 foot high by 8 foot wide cameras are on every corner the nest ledge runs the whole length of the back and is 3 /12 foot wide all perches are coverd with astro turf and there is a 4 inch lip around the ledges http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y145/darkbluefalcon/breedingmews.jpg

[HawkMan69UK]

Sitting here thinking about the reply's would it be feasable to build a vertical bared divider that just the male can fit through so he could join the female when he was ready and not be forced by dropping a barrier. Would this eliminate the human error of getting the timming wrong. Just a thought any comments?
a friend uses this system with his spars seem to work he keep them 24/7....but i dont think the female has hunted?

[Goldie]

Sitting here thinking about the reply's would it be feasable to build a vertical bared divider that just the male can fit through so he could join the female when he was ready and not be forced by dropping a barrier. Would this eliminate the human error of getting the timming wrong. Just a thought any comments?

The simple answer is NO.
It's not about wether he is ready or being forced, it is wether SHE is ready enough to accept him without doing damage. Given that he is likely to be up for it before her he would go in anyway and be likely to pay a heavy price. It is the breeders ability to determine when they should go together and be on hand to seperate should he be wrong. This scenario obviously doesn't apply in the wild as the male has a vast area in which to escape.

Having said all that, your thoughts on the matter are so far off, a number of breeders have a bolt hole idea either side of the aviery to allow only the male to get through as an escape from her, but they are only opened when the breeder feels the time is right, prior to opening the main partition. It is not something i would do myself as i feel that if the male had to slow down to negotiate the exit he would be nailed

[Brit-Gos]

Good point Goldie and thanks for sharing your experience with me (a very novice breeder). Sorry for asking stupid questions but if know one tells you your non the wiser.

[Brit-Gos]

SUCCESS:supz: gosses copulating well, female is sitting on 5 eggs. The male did not come into condition until the female was sitting her 1st egg but after that there was no stopping them. Most of the copulating seems to take place early morning and early evening with only a few copulations through the day. So now it's fingers crossed that 4 of the eggs are firtile.

[OutFlying]

Good luck