Are kestrels a bigginer bird?

[Matthew Symons]

Ive had a discussion with a few of you on here with regards to avairy size for a harris hawk. youve come back with some great responses.

Well the size of the avairy thats been suggested seems to be a little bit to large for the area that i had in mind.

Never mind tho. Thats why im on here. to try to get as much info as possible so i can get an informed decission on the right bird for the available space i have.

Does anyone have any experiences with kestrels?
if so would you let me know the appropriate size of avairy for a kestrel?
and what size quarry can a kestrel take?
is it a beginners bird?

[Jackson]

in my personal opinion i would say theyre not a begginers bird!!
they are very small so weight control is extremely dificuly the slightest drop and they could be dead!!
to be safe i always recommend something of "medium" size - hh for example!!

im not saying you shouldnt get one at a later date but to me it would be a mistake to get one as a first bird. also if your flying it to the lure they fly very very close!! so your lure skills should be good enough to respect this other wise one wrong swing and again you could knock it out. this is not to say you couldnt with a larger bird but the chances are more likely!!

other people may have different views and experiances.

do you have any other experaince with bops?
do you have a mentor or others near you to help you?
what would you plan to do with it? i.e. hunt or to the lure?

[Matthew Symons]

Thats great advice and i really appreciate it. Keep the ideas comming.

[Dave G]

Ive had a discussion with a few of you on here with regards to avairy size for a harris hawk. youve come back with some great responses.

Well the size of the avairy thats been suggested seems to be a little bit to large for the area that i had in mind.

Never mind tho. Thats why im on here. to try to get as much info as possible so i can get an informed decission on the right bird for the available space i have.

Does anyone have any experiences with kestrels?
if so would you let me know the appropriate size of avairy for a kestrel?
and what size quarry can a kestrel take?
is it a beginners bird?
mattew are you now looking for a kestrel as you cannot make the correct size mews for a harris hawk ??? hope not the kestrel is a small bird which needs lots of looking after not realy for a bigginer ,

[Skeld]

I have a kestrel and I would suggest you do not get one as your first bird, especially if you want to hunt with it, not the easiest thing to do!

[Matthew Symons]

I have a kestrel and I would suggest you do not get one as your first bird, especially if you want to hunt with it, not the easiest thing to do!
thanks guys really great advise once again ! ill try talk the wife into letting me use more of the garden for birds lol

believe me if i had my way the whole garden would be used lol
maybe its time to get the bulldozer in lol

thats why i love this site you all help out and its really appreciated.
i think if every beginner wanted to be as informed about the bops as i do im sure thered be less birds mistreated ( well thats in my opinion )

[HoumaFalconer]

i would never suggest a kestrel for a first bird, they are just way to small.

[MattSpar]

If you train, and then fly a harris' to its full potential, and then, "move on" to a kestrel, you will be very disappointed with the results. A well trained harris' will provide you with years of good sport, whereas a kestrel will do no more than fly to a lure, and usually not very spectacularly even then.

[DeathFromAbove]

Amazon's spot on there mate, I personally like kestrels and would have one as a lure bird myself if i had the extra time but as a falconry bird you'll find that they're only good for catching rodents/small birds at best. Ultimately get whatever bird you want, pointless to settle for a bird that you're not going to enjoy flying just because it's touted as being a 'beginners' bird, but bear in mind that the smaller the bird the more care and precision is needed with weight control and maintenance as a 1/4 ounce can mean life or death to the smaller species and that sort of knowledge usually comes with experience and time. ideally a mentor is what you need to help with whatever choice you make. Is there anyone in the know nearby that might help out?

[Matthew Symons]

mattew are you now looking for a kestrel as you cannot make the correct size mews for a harris hawk ??? hope not the kestrel is a small bird which needs lots of looking after not realy for a bigginer ,
thanks romeo the advice is taken in believe me

[Hawkmaster]

MOVED FROM GENERAL FALCONRY

[Dave G]

mathew if you can fly a harris most days then you realy dont need a 12x12 ft mews , as long as its big enough for the harris to move around in and spread its wing easy then thats ok,some just like there mews big but like i say its ok building a mews then not having the time to fly a hawk as time is whats required and lots of it aswell as gaining experience first too ,so get out with some falconers and learn more and keep asking the questions as thats good too ;)

[CJ#HaRrIs HAwKs RuLe#]

yer I agree.

I think it's not rerally the size of the avairy that counts its the quality of flight out of the avariy that really matters.

when I get my bird ,MHH, I was going to keep it in a 6f by 7f by 14f avairy.

here is my plan I'm using mesh however, out of interest what is wrong with mesh as I would prefer to use it, as I personaly don't like the idea of dark avairy with bars.

12134

[Matthew Symons]

mathew if you can fly a harris most days then you realy dont need a 12x12 ft mews , as long as its big enough for the harris to move around in and spread its wing easy then thats ok,some just like there mews big but like i say its ok building a mews then not having the time to fly a hawk as time is whats required and lots of it aswell as gaining experience first too ,so get out with some falconers and learn more and keep asking the questions as thats good too ;)
once more thanks for the positive comments. with you guys and girls on board it does make me feel more sure that i am gonna get this bird 1 day !

[Barbary Boy]

kestrels are definatly suitable for a begginer m8, as long as your well prepaired. wonder why youd want to change your mind from a h/hawk though?a harris hawk is definatly a better bet, as for aveiry size i recon 8ft by 8ft would be enough, kestrels will catch stuff but i wouldnt get one in the expectation of catching anything! hence a h/hawk being the better bet?

[Tim Laycock]

Are kestrels a bigginer bird?

I wouldnt recomend them but I did alright with one, great if you want to catch beetles and voles :lol:

[Renton]

I wouldnt recomend them but I did alright with one, great if you want to catch beetles and voles :lol:

And worms!

[Tim Laycock]

Never got her going on worm :rolleyes:

(Should have bagged her a few :shock: :lol:)

[Dave G]

yer I agree.

I think it's not rerally the size of the avairy that counts its the quality of flight out of the avariy that really matters.

when I get my bird ,MHH, I was going to keep it in a 6f by 7f by 14f avairy.

here is my plan I'm using mesh however, out of interest what is wrong with mesh as I would prefer to use it, as I personaly don't like the idea of dark avairy with bars.

12134
once your hawk is at hunting weight they bate towards the mesh causing feather damage and cere damage this is why mesh is not the best stuff to put on your mews

[Tim Laycock]

You dont need thick bars, its not a prison :lol:

I use 3/8 bamboo with the mesh outside this, works well and is not dark

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b348/Accipitrine/fedup003.jpg

[Dave G]

nice pic blackbird thanx ,so if mesh is to be used needs to be put behind the bamboo or dowle bars ??? much safer for the birds ;)

[Jackson]

can you not use plastic covered wire mess - the thick stuff!! i wouldnt use mesh thats uncoated e.g. chicken wire cos that would just act like a cheese greater on your bird!!

[Tim Laycock]

can you not use plastic covered wire mess - the thick stuff!! i wouldnt use mesh thats uncoated e.g. chicken wire cos that would just act like a cheese greater on your bird!!

I use coated chicken wire outside the bars, if the bars are properly spaced there is no problem with your hawk making contact with the wire.

[CJ#HaRrIs HAwKs RuLe#]

nice pic thanxs

should of asked that question after I read my book:roll: I know now:D
they recomended plastic half inch overflow pipe. anyone use it?

how do you treat bamboo to use?
I have heard (to be fair in a book about parrots)
that bamboo can harbour parasites?

the mesh I am talking about is quite big and chuncky. i'll try and get a pic.

I just want to let light in. mabey through the roof or would bars on the roof make scary shadows :lol: and frighten the bird. Is it safe to use mesh on the roof?

thanks for the help it will stop me making mistakes.

[Tim Laycock]

Never experienced problems with parasites, for anything other than an imprint I would use bars on the roof also

[CJ#HaRrIs HAwKs RuLe#]

Never experienced problems with parasites, for anything other than an imprint I would use bars on the roof also


oh good!
I quite like bamboo. Is it safe to use just bamboo or do you have to put mesh behind it.

I will put bars on the roof and have nice bamboo bars!
better design!

12202

[Tim Laycock]

You definatly need mesh outside the bamboo, it can become brittle with age and drys out through the summer.

This is why some people use pipe as an alternative but I stick with bamboo because Im like that :lol:

[CJ#HaRrIs HAwKs RuLe#]

You definatly need mesh outside the bamboo, it can become brittle with age and drys out through the summer.

This is why some people use pipe as an alternative but I stick with bamboo because Im like that :lol:

I prefer te look of bammboo to pipes. bammboo remindes me of pandas in the moutians of china and cute little bamboo huts:roll: yes i know i'm pathetic.

so put chicken wire behind it or can you use that netting stuff?
the (nylon??) stuff used to make the indoor adventure things.

if this is so obviusly a stupid question and a health hazard the the bird then sorry in advance but i just wanted to ask.......

[GyrXPeales]

Matthew,
If you have access to someone who can help you and has flown kestrels successfully on game, the answer is yes. If not you should probably choose a different bird. Weight management is not that difficult once you get the bird hunting, but finding that hunting weight can be pretty tough.
Kestrels "usually" need to be taken pretty low in order to get them going. Your final hunting weight might be as much as 10-15 grams higher than their entering weight. Imprints especially need to be taken to the knifes edge to get them entered, then you need to bring them back up. You need experience or a mentor with experience to do it safely.
We have three apprentice class falconers in the area sucessfully flying K-Birds on quarry(birds). But they all have experienced mentors helping, and all the mentors help each others apprentices.
Kestrels can be very good bird hawks, ours take mostly starlings, some sparrows, and boat-tailed grackles that can weigh up to 240 grams.
Harris hawks, or any of the accipiters can do the same job, but you expect them to. The one thing we've found out about the little finger falcons is that you find yourself scratching your head alot and saying "I didn't know a Kestrel could do that", and that's your reward.
As for housing, we keep the wee ones indoors, except for weathering, it makes weight control much easier.
I hope that helps,
Jeff

[Johnny Abbott]

If you train, and then fly a harris' to its full potential, and then, "move on" to a kestrel, you will be very disappointed with the results. A well trained harris' will provide you with years of good sport, whereas a kestrel will do no more than fly to a lure, and usually not very spectacularly even then.no more to be said

[GyrXPeales]

Johnny,
I'm not suggesting you trade your HH for a Kes. We fly the little ones as back up birds, not our primary bird. Most of us flying the Kes around here, also fly hybrids on ducks and prairie chickens. We usually fly the Kestrels on the way to or from flying the big birds.
The one thing we found out is that by doing some car hawking with the kestrels they can feed themselves and our other birds. We fly them through the moult at a higher weight, and on a reduced schedule.
I have a Perlin comming the first week of June, but I also have 60 starlings in the freezer to get him going, and I will have lots of bagged starlings, to get him stooping off the kite.
Not a bad deal,
Jeff

[Yarak1]

Ive had a discussion with a few of you on here with regards to avairy size for a harris hawk. youve come back with some great responses.

Well the size of the avairy thats been suggested seems to be a little bit to large for the area that i had in mind.

Never mind tho. Thats why im on here. to try to get as much info as possible so i can get an informed decission on the right bird for the available space i have.

Does anyone have any experiences with kestrels?
if so would you let me know the appropriate size of avairy for a kestrel?
and what size quarry can a kestrel take?
is it a beginners bird?

Hi Mat, the weight on a kestrel is very small mate and easy to get wrong especially when the weather turns cold.........for example I have a little male who flies at 4.3/4 ozs.....tiny weight really especially for the less experienced ( not knocking you)....easy to kill if you get it wrong..........1/2 oz off this weight and he will more than likely keel over.......

[Claire]

I have a kestrel as my first bird, but I flew her for a year at a centre before I took her on so I wasn't exactly a beginner, I wanted a small bird so that my 7 yr old could get involved, space for accomadation shouldn't be the main reason for your choice, at the centre helped at our harris's were tethered all year round but they were flown all year round too, thats another option but i think its unfair to keep a harris tethered at times its not being flown

[Aerial]

Gyrxpeals, you're referring to the North American kestrel, right? Has anyone out there been as successful as Jeff flying Common kestrels from the car? NA kestrels are quite a bit smaller than their eurasian cousins, and I bet weight management would be even trickier for them.

Tell us your kestrel hunting stories, good or bad.

Mark

[GregMik]

Ive had a discussion with a few of you on here with regards to avairy size for a harris hawk. youve come back with some great responses.

Well the size of the avairy thats been suggested seems to be a little bit to large for the area that i had in mind.

Never mind tho. Thats why im on here. to try to get as much info as possible so i can get an informed decission on the right bird for the available space i have.

Does anyone have any experiences with kestrels?
if so would you let me know the appropriate size of avairy for a kestrel?
and what size quarry can a kestrel take?
is it a beginners bird?

NOO!!....weight window is to small for a beginner to maintain..And too hard for a beginner to enter.

Greg

[GyrXPeales]

Gyrxpeals, you're referring to the North American kestrel, right? Has anyone out there been as successful as Jeff flying Common kestrels from the car? NA kestrels are quite a bit smaller than their eurasian cousins, and I bet weight management would be even trickier for them.

Tell us your kestrel hunting stories, good or bad.

Mark
Mark,
There are several people in the states flying EK's with good success. Mullenix flew one and, it seemed to be better at car hawking and roost hawking. It was not quite as willing to go into cover at the AK's, so it made it harder to field hawk.
Car hawking can be a trap for kestrels, you can't just fly them at the close stuff or they'll loose muscle tone over time. Give them lots of long slips, and on the days you don't fly them do jump ups or lure fly them to maintain muscle tone. They are just like any other bird, a fit bird is a confident bird.
We also give the birds, big and small, Pedialyte before and after the hunt when the weather warms, the electrolytes keep them fresher and more focused.
Yor're right on the weight difference, our females fly at 102-103gr in the cold weather and 95-97gr since the weather has warmed.
Jeff

[Aerial]

Jeff,

Thanks for the useful information! Do you have any other useful tips on training kestrels to hunt birds?

How much pedialyte do you give the kestrel? I haven't heard of this practice before. Heck, I didn't even know what a pedialyte was before I read your message and looked it up. Sounds like giving a sports drink to a falcon!

Sixty starlings in the freezer with 260 something head count for your kestrel?! I guess that blows away the pessimistic naysayers. (My wife would not like it if I put 60 starlings in our freezer...lol).

The way I look at it, I think that kestrels are great beginner birds in general. I took on a couple of eurasian kestrel as my first birds and it was great. However, for what its worth, I would think that the beginner would be better off keeping the kestrel up in weight until they gets their footing.

Later,
Mark

[GregMik]

Jeff,

Thanks for the useful information! Do you have any other useful tips on training kestrels to hunt birds?

How much pedialyte do you give the kestrel? I haven't heard of this practice before. Heck, I didn't even know what a pedialyte was before I read your message and looked it up. Sounds like giving a sports drink to a falcon!

Sixty starlings in the freezer with 260 something head count for your kestrel?! I guess that blows away the pessimistic naysayers. (My wife would not like it if I put 60 starlings in our freezer...lol).

The way I look at it, I think that kestrels are great beginner birds in general. I took on a couple of eurasian kestrel as my first birds and it was great. However, for what its worth, I would think that the beginner would be better off keeping the kestrel up in weight until they gets their footing.

Later,
Mark

Mark,
Falconry is hunting. In order to hunt a bird, you have to drop its weight. If you are a beginner you don't know enough about weight control to keep that small of a bird at the proper weight. You are either going to kill it from being to low or loose it because it is too high, unless you have close supervision from an experience small BOP hawker.

This is why it is not a good beginners bird. They can be great hunters in experienced hands.

[Aerial]

You don't have to drop a kestrels weight to hunt with a kestrel. You can hunt with a kestrel at very safe weight ranges.

As a beginner, I never lost my kestrels and I hunted with them every day. They were as fat as thanksgiving turkeys! I never had 60 starlings in the freezer, but who's going to demand that from a beginner? Just because "falconry is hunting" doesn't mean that a beginner hunter has to bring home meat every night.

Agreed, I wouldn't think it would be advisable for a beginner to drop a kestrels weight to the extent that may be required to hunt birds as efficiently as Jeff is doing it.

I respectfully disagree --- they are a great beginners bird. I wouldn't argue that they are the best beginners birds of all raptors in the world (read the other recent beginners bird thread! I think a shikra would be one of the very best).

[GregMik]

If you are catching stuff, with a kestrel as your first bird without an experianced mentor, you are one of the exceptional ppl that have an innate feel for BOP's. Keep it up. :roll:

Greg

P.S. I still stand by my statement. Kestrels are not a good beginners bird.

You don't have to drop a kestrels weight to hunt with a kestrel. You can hunt with a kestrel at very safe weight ranges.

As a beginner, I never lost my kestrels and I hunted with them every day. They were as fat as thanksgiving turkeys! I never had 60 starlings in the freezer, but who's going to demand that from a beginner? Just because "falconry is hunting" doesn't mean that a beginner hunter has to bring home meat every night.

Agreed, I wouldn't think it would be advisable for a beginner to drop a kestrels weight to the extent that may be required to hunt birds as efficiently as Jeff is doing it.

I respectfully disagree --- they are a great beginners bird. I wouldn't argue that they are the best beginners birds of all raptors in the world (read the other recent beginners bird thread! I think a shikra would be one of the very best).

[Tasha55403]

I've got to say, I strongly disagree with the statement that kestrels make good beginner's birds. I started with a big female american kestrel (trapped at 145g-just over 5 oz) and I still think this. I lived in an apartment at the time and thought a redtail would have been impossible to keep in that situation (I know better now:D ) I lost her on the second free flight after two months of training. I just didn't know enough at the time. I've seen plenty of apprentices do well with kestrels as their second bird, but very, very few that were at all successful with one as their first bird. Heck, I've seen plenty of apprentices that lost or killed their first redtail! And that's with our apprentice/sponsor system.

[Tasha55403]

What makes a good beginner's bird? A bird that's hardy and can weather a newbie's mistakes and not too difficult to get hunting. A kestrel doesn't fit that definition at all. One mistake can kill the bird and getting it to catch real game (ie birds, not mice or bugs) can be a big challenge. I would bet if you asked all the folks that started with a kestrel, american or european, how they did you find that either the bird was killed, lost or didn't catch much game. Hmmm...that's a good idea! I think I'll start a poll!:-D

[Barbary Boy]

my 1st bird was a european kestrel, i had never even met a real live falconer then and had learnt everything from two books.i jessed her with my own clumsily made equipment and trained her all by myself, i was 11yrs old! it took me far longer than it should have done , but i eventually got her going, she went on to kill various small birds and i flew her loads for 4yrs before she eventually went off down wind to prey at fortune? Yes i agree kestrels probably arnt the best beginners bird, but, if thats what you fancy, go for it any bird can be an ideal beginners bird to the right person in the right set of circumstances in my humble opinion.

[Aerial]

Any bird of prey can be lost if flown too high. As far as I know, kestrels are not unique in this arena. You mentioned redtails.

I think that you may find a lot of people out there (like myself) who have had wonderful experiences with kestrels as their first birds. I personally didn't have any difficulty keeping the kestrels healthy and interested. Maybe some do, but then again some have difficulty with redtails too.

When I hacked my passage kestrel "Amira" back to the wild, she would meet me every day at the same spot for a full week before she finally returned to the wild. She was fat and tame, and she still loved to catch the occassional desert gerbil and give little birds a good chase for their money. If I was a master falconer, I would have been concerned about our hunting proficiency and about bag numbers. But I was a beginner. And that's the point.

I just kept a daily log of her weight (which didn't fluctuate much!), and fed her accordingly. :yawinkle:

[Aerial]

Maybe you are right, the begginer who is likely to starve a bird to death should probably stay away from kestrels, because they will die quicker from starvation than other larger raptors.

Its not that hard to keep a kestrel above the starvation line. Now a musket, yes, they are not forgiving at all from what I have heard.

I'm not contentious, just persistent. :wink:

[GregMik]

OK ....I have tried to be nice and stay out of this.

A starving bird cannot catch anything as it has no energy, hense the word starving.

You have not caught anything with your kestrel, if you have even had a BOP, from the comments you have made. It is not a good bird for a beginner.

Do you really feel that Jeff is catching 300 head of game with a starving bird?

Greg

[Aerial]

Greg,

Did you think that I was condoning starving a bird, or that I didn't understand the implications of the word "starving"? Take a little bit of light humour, as it was intended.

Let me quote what I said, for your convenience: "Maybe you are right, the begginer who is likely to starve a bird to death should probably stay away from kestrels, because they will die quicker from starvation than the other raptors." Just a little bit of humour, that's all Greg---but then again, I've never been a comedian. Actually, I would rather be a kestrel who starved quickly in the hands of a careless beginner than a larger bird that starved slowly.

My humble experience is that it is not actually very difficult to keep the eurasian kestrel in a safe weight range, so I don't see that as a great obstacle for a beginner.

Your argument seems to be that (1) falconry is hunting, that (2) hunting with kestrels requires reducing their weight significantly and keeping them on the knife-edge, that (3) reducing their weight significantly will jeopardize the life of the kestrel, and therfore that (4) kestrels are not good beginners birds. Please correct me if I'm wrong--I don't want to hit straw men.

For point 1, I would agree. However some will argue that flying at gerbils and an occassional sparrow is hunting. This can amount to a lot of fun for a beginner, as was in my case.

For point 2, I don't agree. This was not my experience as a beginner (heck I'm still a beginner in general...I don't contest), unless we unnecessarily define hunting as having 60 starlings in the freezer. I happily concede that only the experienced should reduce a kestrels weight in such a way.

Point 3 I agree to. Point 4 does not follow from your premise, and so I don't agree to that either.

These birds are very available, very trainable (manning, lure-training, etc), and sometimes very amiable (at least in my experience!). Their being so widespread does indicate to me their general tolerance of various climate and terrain. You don't need THAT much space to fly a kestrel.

You will have a long, uphill climb ahead of you in trying to convince all of the beginner kestrelers out there that this bird isn't suitable. You might as well give up now. :goodman:

Mark

[HawkMan]

May i put my point in ,i jumped in looking after bop of prey and nearly killed my first red ,I feel as tough you need to learn from experience sometimes you may kill your bird which i havent done but a lot have .
Ive got many owls now and a spar which i feel im more equipped to train and look after it .
Jb

[GregMik]

Falconry is hunting wild quarry in it's natural environment. Not pet keeping. If you feel that a Kestrel is a good first bird for a pet keeper, I may agree with you on that one. I do not agree with pet keeping tho.

You keep saying starving and knife edge, this is not how you get the most out of a hunting bird. Consistent weight management in the hunting weight window is is the key to hunting with success. Oh and by the way, the weight window will move with the amount of exercise the bird gets.

The kestrels weight window is too small for a beginner to manage without a mentor experienced in small BOP hawking. This is why it is not a good first bird. If you were truly hunting instead of pet keeping you would understand these things.

Greg

[Aerial]

Did someone say that to get the most out of a hunting bird, you have to starve the bird? Read my post again please. My intention is that it is more tricky to manage a kestrel at lower weights, and that it shouldn't be done by beginners.

You said that good weight management in the hunting weight window is the key to hunting with success. Yes.

The weight window will be too small for a beginner to handle if the goal is 60 starlings in the freezer!! This is my point, Greg. The weight window will be much larger once you dismiss this goal (since the upper weight limit will not be as rigidly defined).

A window is defined by limits, the lower which I am saying the beginner should stay away from, and the upper limit --- the sky's the limit (okay thats only a pun....please dont take me literally this time). The potential risk in going TOO far up in weight is losing the bird. This can happen with any falcon, but I never had a problem with my kestrels in this regard.

Did someone mention pet-keeping? :roll:

[GregMik]

Aerial,
You are very articulate but that doesn't equate to knowledge. You don't have a clue on how small that weight window is. This is why I know you are a pet keeper that doesn't free fly a bird. The weight window of killing and having the bird fly away is too small, on a kestrel, for a beginner to manage on their own.

The weight window on a larger bird is allot bigger so effects of mistakes are not as disastrous.

Greg

[GyrXPeales]

Hi M8's,
I guess it's my turn. We don't have a numbers goal when it comes to the Kestrels. The numbers are a result of the number of slips we have to take in order to keep them in shape. Trust me when you are car hawking, you can't keep a bird in shape by flying them out the window at 20MPH on a bird that is 30 ft. out. They set their wings and glide to the kill. They'll get more exercise flying across the living room. You can fly them like that for a while, then their muscles will go flacid and they won't fly worth ****. Then you blame it on the bird, and say the sucker just doesn't want to fly. We try to fly 10 to 12 slips a day, and I mean hard ones. We want to see them halling ass on birds 30 to 100 yards out, we want to see their strategies and we want to see them improve. We watch them closely after each flight and check for signs of stress or fatigue, if we see that, the games over, we give them some electorlytes feed them up and go home at the first sign.
I can fly my passage 1 gram above her flight window and she will chase birds just as hard as if she were on weight. The only trouble is she will chase every bird she sees within the square mile, and you better plan on a couple of hours of trying to get her back. The only trouble is if she kills something out of your site, say in someones backyard that has a dog or a cat or a coopers hawk, she's dead, and all you're going to find is your transmitter and some feathers.
We do have a goal, and that is to game hawk our kestrels, small game I'll grant you, but it is still game hawking. Try to crow hawk with a gos, without some pretty precise weight control, you might get them to chase but if they are to high they probably won't bind to many.
If our birds fly 100 yards, we expect them to fly back through the window fast and hard the instant they see us wave or hear us whistle. It is about conditioning, and about safety, too many things like to eat kestrels.
It's not about numbers, but numbers do let you know if you are doing Your job. Our birds take about one in four slips, pretty average, but I promise you they are in top shape.
As for birds in the freezer, I have a Perlin coming in less than a month, I want him to have the best quality food he can get, I have quail, but wild birds are better. So it's either let the birds go, which we do, or use the resource which we do also.
Regards,
Jeff

[Aerial]

Jeff,

I am going to buy that book that you mentioned. Sounds like a great one. Thank you for the insightful information. Keep it coming. Your experience in hunting so efficiently with kestrels will no doubt encourage many kestrel hawkers. Your caution about flying the bird too high is well taken.

Greg, personal presumption is a great vice. Your view flies in the face of my very humble experience, and the experience of probably hundreds who are even today successfully hunting with kestrels as their first bird.

It is not my view that kestrels are the best first bird of all possible raptors in the world, but that isn't what the thread is about. If I could go back and fly the kestrel as my first bird again, I would.

Peace to all falconers and moderators :-D
Mark

[GregMik]

Mark,
I am just disagreeing with you as a falconer. Moderating has nothing to do with this. You are stating your opinion and I am stating mine. I am glad you feel that there are better birds to start off with.

Greg

[Wightwings]

in answer to the original question ( sorry not fully read the first 6 pages ) NO.......

[Aerial]

If anyone is interested in a more objective response to this debate, please see Mullenix's article "Should Apprentice Falconers Be Allowed to Fly American Kestrels" found here:

http://www.americanfalconry.com/appKestrels.html

In particle, Matthew Mullenix points out that "Going into this analysis, we expected to find support for the position that kestrels were indeed more difficult birds to manage in falconry than redtail hawks and that this difficulty would be reflected in higher rates of captive mortality. Though we found some evidence to this effect, we do not believe the difference is significant in terms of practical falconry or resource management."

He also mentions that "Taken together, we believe the available data supports a conclusion that the relative difference in mortality among first-year kestrels and redtail hawks is similar in both wild and captive populations."

Anyway, it's an interesting read. Have fun.

Signing off,
Mark

[BuzzBee]

If you havent got room dont get a Bop

[FlameHairedFalconer]

If you havent got room dont get a Bop

And what would you consider 'not having room'?

FHF

[GregMik]

Mark,
I have seen this. There is one thing that Matt doesn't take into consideration in his analysis. The Kestrel is not considered a good first bird by 95% of the falconers in the US. So the 5% that do are the ones that fly or have flown the bird themselves. Since they do or have, they have the knowledge and the dedication to train their apprentices to handle this pocket rocket. They will then only take on the apprentice that is willing to put in the time it does take. Because of this the numbers will be skewed.

As I stated before and I still stand by this. A kestrel is not a good beginners bird if you are going to be hunting. Can it be done? Of course it can, it is just that it takes a special apprentice to do it. Now since this is an International forum and not a US one, if you just intend to "Fly" a kestrel then I think they are good birds. They make about the best "Pet" bird out there. They are relatively friendly, and they mute straight down. I am in the US so there are regulations in place that discourage pet keeping.


Greg

P.S. If you want Matt's e-mail address I can get it for you, I am late for work at the moment tho.





If anyone is interested in a more objective response to this debate, please see Mullenix's article "Should Apprentice Falconers Be Allowed to Fly American Kestrels" found here:

http://www.americanfalconry.com/appKestrels.html

In particle, Matthew Mullenix points out that "Going into this analysis, we expected to find support for the position that kestrels were indeed more difficult birds to manage in falconry than redtail hawks and that this difficulty would be reflected in higher rates of captive mortality. Though we found some evidence to this effect, we do not believe the difference is significant in terms of practical falconry or resource management."

He also mentions that "Taken together, we believe the available data supports a conclusion that the relative difference in mortality among first-year kestrels and redtail hawks is similar in both wild and captive populations."

Anyway, it's an interesting read. Have fun.

Signing off,
Mark

[Dean]

Do a little homework,read on merlins,then go treat your kestrel with the same respect,train him with desire to own him,use your common sense on entering,if you get my drift<G>A creche reared bird if possible!I believe they are an ideal bird to start,only my opinion caused by my own experiences!

[Aerial]

Greg,

Your response to Mullenix's article is not convincing.

You are right, Mullenix doesn't take your consideration into consideration. This is simply because the dedication of the sponsors and apprentices is absolutely unknown to us. Indeed, we cannot deduce that these apprentices were extraordinarily dedicated and knowledgeable from the fact that their sponsors (1) are in the minority, (2) that they have free flown an American Kestrel themselves.

Even if this were true about their sponsors (which is also an assumption), it doesn't at all follow that the apprentices are going to be exceptionally dedicated apprentices! It would have been just as easy to make the assumption that since apprentices that own Red-tails are in the majority, they are careless, undedicated falconers. This also cleverly supports your position!

Unfortunately, the research and data simply does not support the band-wagon opinion that American kestrels are poor beginners birds.

What constitutes a pet? People hunt with dogs, and yet you can find them in the pet shop. In fact, these same dogs are commonly referred to as pets! When does an American Kestrel become a hunting bird and not a pet? How many bagged sparrows does it have to take before it becomes a hunting bird? Does 1 sparrow not count? Does the kestrel have to kill 2 grackles? Can the kestrel still kill grasshoppers for the apprentice to still be knighted a real falconer? Or does this disqualify him, making him a mere pet-keeper? Subjective questions demand subjective answers.

Respectfully,
An apprentice

[Alf]

Wow I am glad I picked up on this thread. Some real interesting stuff here.
As for a kestrel being a beginner’s bird I would have to say first what type of kestrel? What your expectations are?
Are you as a beginner do you want to hunt with the hawk or merely have the hawk as a stepping stone lure flying getting the feel of a hawk so forth?
If you want only to lure fly and get a feel of a hawk then yes I would say a kes is a good beginner’s bird. Kestrels and I have flown an EK and am currently flying an AK need very little weight reduction flying them basically on appetite if imprinted. I could imagine a parent reared hawk to need only a little less weight reduction as there pretty steady responsive hawks. I am sure you could fly either hawk at the higher weight margins without the fear of having to lose these hawks.
If on the other hand especially with the AK you want to enter and hunt and also hunt with a modicum of success, I think No! maybe they need that little bit extra knowledge to handle one of these falcons.
At the moment I have basically been tame hacking my little imprint female AK at the higher weight margins just letting her find her wings she’s been flying around 120 gram mark and she wont leave me alone. For hunting and entering I know I will have to take her down to a hunting weight of exactly how much I don’t know just yet? I have though the experience to know when I can’t push her anymore and can read all the signs to tell me this hopefully this will never happen and my baby will chase and kill long before I get her to the lower weight margins. The point being is that a newbie wouldn’t be able to read the signs and manage precise weight control as a falconer who has done it all before.
So Yes! If you are only lure flying. And No! If you’re thinking of hunting<g> Alf.

[Aerial]

Again, the same applies. Red-tailed hawks would make horrible beginners birds if you want to hunt ducks (although they will kill one on occassion!). But not many will be so dogmatic as to say that they make horrible beginners birds in general.

When I started out in falconery, I didn't have expectations to kill a lot of big quarry. At my age it was exhilerating to see her take desert gerbils! From my vantage point (a few inches shorter), it was like watching a Harris or a Red-tail take a full-throttled hare!!

So it is a very subjective issue. Don't throw out hundreds of years of tradition with this faithful little bird, just because it is smaller than some. The research (and my humble experience, as well as many others) certainly doesn't give one reason to suspect great difficulty in falconry management.

Regards,
Mark

[jmacfabe]

ok so if kestrels are not good for beginers because of multiple reasons then what would you guys sugest for an beginer with limited space ( I am house but i think i would need to bring the bird in during the winter .....wouldnt i ? plus i will have to move in the future and a bop that doesnt need a hug mews is more favourable. any ideas?

[Tasha55403]

You can keep a redtail-sized bird on a bowperch in your living room, just fine:) I started with a kestrel because I lived in an apartment and didn't think I could keep a redtail that way...now I know better:lol: I live with Greg and we have a harris in the spare bedroom, this fall we'll have a gos and a sharpie in the living room and a redtail outside in the mews (or, if I get a new redtail, he'll be in the kitchen on a bow:lol: ) Dang, I love falconry:lol:

[GregMik]

ok so if kestrels are not good for beginers because of multiple reasons then what would you guys sugest for an beginer with limited space ( I am house but i think i would need to bring the bird in during the winter .....wouldnt i ? plus i will have to move in the future and a bop that doesnt need a hug mews is more favourable. any ideas?

A Kestrel can be flwon as a first bird with allot of dedication. If you are limited by space then the Kestrel might have to be your bird. It is better than no bird at all. Just remember that it is going to take allot of work and attention to the details. Do you have a metor close to you that as experiance in small BOP's? This is a must if you are going to be successful.

Then how big of a mews do you consider huge? You can convert an 8X8 shed into a mews then move that when you move to a new place.

Greg

[jmacfabe]

Then how big of a mews do you consider huge? You can convert an 8X8 shed into a mews then move that when you move to a new place.

Greg
I guess I consider an 8X8 big for where I might have to move too but the idea that i could keep a bop like a red tail inside on a bow stand is tempting. maybe a bird between the size of a redtail and a kestrel. i'll just keep learning all i can for now.

[soontobeapprentice]

You folks in the old world are quite fortunate.
In America we are only allowed a red-tail or a kestrel for beginners.

Which is the better choice?

Or should I say, for someone with unlimited room, whiich is better? I'm on 5 acres with plenty of open space in which to fly.

[Tasha55403]

Not much beats a passage redtail for your first bird, honest. They're great, hardy, gamey, beautiful birds.