Knock out

[Gary.B]

I was talking to a fella yesterday who took his hawk to a vet to be knocked out while it had it's beak coped, I was wondering how many others would have their bird knocked out rather than have it stressed by coping or equipment change.

[BHawk]

if you do it right you dont need to put the bird through that unnecessary risk, anaesthetics can be dangerous to birds! never known it be done before

[As The Falcon Her Bells]

I agree with Ben there, unless it is a specific reason (beak need a lot of work done to it etc) I would not do it as the bird will be put both under the stress of getting grabbed before put to sleep and the risk of anaesthetics.

[Gary.B]

I thought it was a bit stange, I wasn't sure if I'd read posts about it year.

[FalconryMews101]

If i'm right in thinking the American vets do it but maybe our falconers on here from across the pond could tell more.

[Harris]

This is slightlu off subject but still about coping!

As I understand it, a wild bird dosen't need coping as thier beaks are worn down by the bones of prey etc. surely if a bird in captivity is fed a good diet with plenty of "bone" then this should prevent the need for coping?

I appreciate that this isn't the case tho, so was just wondering what differences there are in diet in the wild, and what else does a wild bird do that keeps the beak trimmed?

[Gary.B]

Maybe because wild birds eat whole carcass they are getting most of they're food off the bone. I include rabbit head and spine in the birds diet and that seems to keep his beak perfect.

[Harris]

Yes that sounds about right to me, someone also suggested to me that keeping a smooth rock in the aviary was also a good idea, as the bird would sometimes feak its beak on this after eating, which also helps to keep the beak neat. don't know what other members think of this tho.

[Kitana]

About anesthetics:
I know that in continental europe vet medicine is stiil many years behind the progress, and many small animal vets use halothane and injectables to anesthetize animals. These are very dangeous to birds.
Hee we use mainly isoflurane which is a very safe gaz for birds and facilitate anesthesia. I don't know what is used in UK though...
When I worked with wild rescued BoP, I learned that with «wild» animals you always have to weight the possible consequences between choosing: the stress of the manipulations vs the stress of anesthesia. Stress can delay healing in animals, so with all BoP who sustained injuries and had to have their wounds cleaned etc... for more than a minute or so, we put them under anesthesia. But for beak coping... wow... must be a pretty easily reaked out bird or a very bad beak!

[Jimmy]

I know a few falconers that knock their birds out to cope them and also to imp them. I think it's rediculous myself and definitely not worth the extra risk. Funny thing is, even with the bird knocked out, they still can't seem to do a good job.....

Jimmy

[Zam]

About anesthetics:
I know that in continental europe vet medicine is stiil many years behind the progress, and many small animal vets use halothane and injectables to anesthetize animals. These are very dangeous to birds.
Hee we use mainly isoflurane which is a very safe gaz for birds and facilitate anesthesia. I don't know what is used in UK though...
When I worked with wild rescued BoP, I learned that with «wild» animals you always have to weight the possible consequences between choosing: the stress of the manipulations vs the stress of anesthesia. Stress can delay healing in animals, so with all BoP who sustained injuries and had to have their wounds cleaned etc... for more than a minute or so, we put them under anesthesia. But for beak coping... wow... must be a pretty easily reaked out bird or a very bad beak!

I think you will find that any DECENT avian vet in the UK will only use Isoflurane, as I understand it is much safer to use than injections etc. My vet (Neil Forbes) can keep a bird very lightly sedated (for examination, let's say) - or put them deeply under for surgery. The birds also seem far less "shocky" when they come round. I'm sure Sprout could enlighten us further.

With regard to coping etc. I do my FHH on the glove and unhooded. She is very calm (resigned!!) about it all and knows full well she gets a piece of beef after it's over!! She gets quite stressed if she is cast. Anyone else cope on the glove?

Why do you say Europe is many years behind? I believe Neil Forbes is at the forefront of Avian/Raptor medicine - and lectures all over the world to bring other vets up to date with the latest advances!!!

[Kitana]

Why do you say Europe is many years behind? I believe Neil Forbes is at the forefront of Avian/Raptor medicine - and lectures all over the world to bring other vets up to date with the latest advances!!!

Don't take any offense, i ws speaking in genera, not in particular.There are as many great specialists in Europe as there are in the states or Canada.

It's simply that while I was at university I used to work with many (companion animals) vets from France and Belgium, and I mean many: at least 10 of them were in the teacher's crew, 25 or so were doing internships and there were around 30-40 regulard DVM students. So what they said basically is that most of the small animal clinics didn't even had halothane, they worked mainly with injectables, and many of these injectables are now considered unsafe in companion animal practice. Some have halothane of course and some have isoflurane, but in general, they do not meet the north american standard of care concerning anesthesia. So i really don't know how UK compares with France or Belgium concerning anesthesia, I surely hope that all avian vets do have isoflurane! But if they don't that may very well explain their reluctance to put birds under anesthesia.

[Zam]

No offence taken!!

I appreciate your point. I will only use Neil Forbes as my vet. He has been seeing my birds for 15 or 16 years now. I am only too well aware of the apparent lack of interest in new technologies/techniques some vets show.

It amazes me how some practices seem stuck in the middle ages!! Our local vet, which we use for the farm (cattle and sheep), only have halothane. No endoscopes, digital radiography etc. I know all the new equipment costs a lot of money - but, hey! they all charge enough!!

I think it is the specialist vets who will always keep up with the latest technologies. A lot of the general vets, who just do the "small furries" don't seem to be bothered.:(

[Kitana]

I think it is the specialist vets who will always keep up with the latest technologies. A lot of the general vets, who just do the "small furries" don't seem to be bothered.:(

Here in Québec you have both: the «magic cristal ball» vets who work with almost nothing, and those full equiped ones. But usually you also see a huge difference in the fees charged by these vets, equipped ones often charging 4x more than the others. And knowing what happens when you are not equipped, it's worth paying more to be sure to have quality care! lol

[Hells99]

Yes that sounds about right to me, someone also suggested to me that keeping a smooth rock in the aviary was also a good idea, as the bird would sometimes feak its beak on this after eating, which also helps to keep the beak neat. don't know what other members think of this tho.
I've noticed that our buzzards, reds and hawks tend to 'clean' their beaks on the perch after eating but I'm not sure whether they're *just* cleaning them or or what? Their beaks very rarely need coping tho. Anyone else got any input on this?

[Jackson]

personally, i wouldnt knowck the bird out to do coping!! i have experianced enough people around me to be able to do it safely with little stress to the bird. ive always associated knocking the bird out with a huge risk factor so whre possible i would try to avoid it! but for coping why would you need to knock the bird out?

[Jackson]

I've noticed that our buzzards, reds and hawks tend to 'clean' their beaks on the perch after eating but I'm not sure whether they're *just* cleaning them or or what? Their beaks very rarely need coping tho. Anyone else got any input on this?

some of the birds i know do this, often the do it on the glove too!!

[Dave G]

i see no point of knocking the bird out for the likes of coping as if the bird is well manned and handled correct it should be no probs to cast the bird in a towel and do the coping ???

[Hells99]

some of the birds i know do this, often the do it on the glove too!!
LOL! Yeah, one of the falcons leaned across from the glove a couple of weeks ago and wiped his beak on my cheek!

[Jackson]

LOL! Yeah, one of the falcons leaned across from the glove a couple of weeks ago and wiped his beak on my cheek!

nice!!! lol