fishing Swvel setup

[Sean]

lol not sure hwat its called. but martin hollinshead talked about a method of use permanent flying jesses, with very very small holes in the end, they attached is one largle or 2 small fishing swvils. that clip into the holes. can anyone explain this in more detail, and any pics if possible. i think his permanent jesses were buttoned, that went through the anklet, so how did these stay on?

[Saker-Clive]

When I had the Perlin, because the eyelets were too small to have both prmanant flying jesses and mew jesses; I only fitted the permenant ones, which were attached to the eyelets and the ends had little holes in, so I could use a 'spring clip and swivel' to attach the leash.

There are pictures of them somewhere on here............................if I can find any on my pc. I'll put them up again.
It worked well on him as he was only little but I don't know if I'd trust something like it on a big bird!!

[Sean]

thanks mate. ill have a look for the pics mate, was it in his dairy. and did u get much dangles with them being attached to the anklet directly?

[Saker-Clive]

It's not original but on the Perlin, I use a sprung loaded swivel; as the eyelets and anklets are so small, there isn't enough room for both mews and flying jesses; so I have fitted permenant flying jesses with with a small hole near the bottom of the jess so the clip fits through. When ready to fly, un clip it and away.
I expect there's some who will say it won't work etc. Standard stainless steel swivels on the Harris' and Saker. I'll put a picture of the Perlin one if you want.
Attached Imageshttp://www.falconryforum.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=4168&stc=1&d=1108756524



didn't get any 'dangles' or tangles:grin:

[Saker-Clive]

here's the link for the original thread that Iamthe weasel started.............

http://www.falconryforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=3961&page=4

[Sean]

thanks clive :D

[GregMik]

Here is Tasha's setup.

Greg

[Sean]

do u use a lopp leash mate. also what way are the jesses kept on, are the buttoned , or on the anklet?

[GregMik]

We are not allowed to fly with traditional jesses on. We have to use an Aylmeri system. So the jesses are button jesses that can be removed. The leash is a loop leash. I don't like button leashes as I have had problems with tangles.

Greg

[Tim Laycock]

We are not allowed to fly with traditional jesses on. We have to use an Aylmeri system.

Thats madness Greg, who decides this ****

[GregMik]

Well Tim,
In the infinite wisdom of the falconers around 1970. They are the ones that made the rules and regulations on Falconry in the US. Now we are stuck with alot of them.

Here is a link to the US Federal regulations.

http://frwebgate4.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/waisgate.cgi?WAISdocID=6068091436+3+0+0&WAISaction=retrieve

and

http://frwebgate4.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/waisgate.cgi?WAISdocID=6068091436+5+0+0&WAISaction=retrieve

The new proposed regulations are here:

http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/01jan20051800/edocket.access.gpo.gov/2005/05-2378.htm

Greg

[Tim Laycock]

Interesting Greg, I will have a chew through those.

As Im sure you know m8, a cottectly fitted, slitless traditional jess is safer for the hawk and vastly superior to any aylmeri setup (for short and broadwings at any rate)

Wisdom is a subjective thing isnt it :lol:

[GregMik]

Tim,
I don't have a clue about a traditional jess system. Most falconers over don't even know how to make them. I use them on a fresh trapped bird because they are fast and easy to get on the bird for manning.
I think the reasoning is that if you loose a bird it is easy for the bird to get the jesses out, so the only thing left on them are the anklets.

Greg

[Afshimo]

I used a simular jess system when Shiro was going free. I had little light to go by, and didnt fancy spending the 5 extra mins fidling as it was so cold trying to undo the jesses.

It is basically the spring loaded clip, with a split eyelet, which was atached to a swivel. The jesses couldnt slip off the clip, it was easy to get on/get off, great for securing him when he;s finishing his lure and a blessing during the cold weather when fingers are too numb to do a propper job of the jesses. Means the swivel and leash could be taken off as 1, put on as one and still very secure.

Disadvanteges included it making the swivel area larger with risk to feathers.

The actual clip was bought at the local paper shop for 99p! You can use them to hang your gloves up becuase mine, doesnt have a tassel and the D ring is too loose. A nice hole and your sorted. great for keys etc.

Looks like a larger version on Saker mad's set up. can hold a good bit of weight. Wouldnt advise for teathering unless someone could test it.

[Tim Laycock]

I think the reasoning is that if you loose a bird it is easy for the bird to get the jesses out, so the only thing left on them are the anklets.

Greg

Greg,
This is my main bugbear with the aylmeri!
If the hawk is lost then it pulls the jess out and creates an even bigger hazard to its life.
A great big hole right next to the tools of its trade, held open with a piece of steel just inviting a stick to pass through it during a chase or down the line while on a nest.

If its during a chase the result will likley be a broken leg or if on a nest then starvation is the enemy.
Lost Goshawks skeletons have been found in the UK, pinned down on nests with a clutch of rottern eggs under them more than once.
I will not use aylmeri on any flying bird!

Traditional jesses are a one piece fitment and nothing more than a knife and some leather are required to make them.
They are easily fitted and if made from the right grade of hide are tangle free.
so long as they are slitless in my opinion they cannot be bettered.

people scoff at me and my antique setup on field meets and mumble things like "Who does he think he is? Jack Mavrogordato?"

I just laugh smugly to myself because at the end of the day I know best for me and mine :supz:

[Jack Merlin]

In my opinion, for what it is worth, the biggest danger is a wet over-long jess getting wrapped around a twig.

This has happened to me several times when flying spars and I've since devised my own system which I won't describe here except to say that I no longer fly with leather jesses.

See attached picture below. The red circle indicates where a goshawk hangs by a single leather jess which got wrapped around a branch. In this case, there was a happy ending because the falconer, also visible in the picture was able to borrow a builders' ladder to get to the first branch and then climb to the hawk from there.

[Tim Laycock]

Wet or overly pliable jesses are also a real hazard Derry!
jesses with double presstuds work well on flying spars I find, so long as they are sized correctly so they dont rub the rear of the tarsus or the hind toe.

For Goshawks I just dont grease jesses except for the "anklet part", after a couple of wettings the are as stiff as a board<g>
also due to the nature of traditionals they are easily changed before they weaken.

(It shocks me how many dont even know what a traditional jess is or how to make them, it is one of the first things I was taught)

[As The Falcon Her Bells]

I uuse a thin string attached to the metal ring in your glove, slipps easely trough the anklets and down around your fingers, and slipps the bird perfect, wich result him/her flying in only anklets, on a kill it is very easy to slip the string back in to the anklets and secure the bird whilst eating.
Saw this first time when I worked at Nicks and adopted the idea.

[Tim Laycock]

Its a good Idea for longwings, would never use it for a shortwing though for the reasons I have mentioned Sara.

I would imagine you were using it on longwings :yawinkle:

[As The Falcon Her Bells]

To be honest BB I did not read trough the whole thread, just added my little bit to it, no I would not use it on a gos, spar? I dont know, it would prob work ok? ;)

[Sean]

thanks for the replies, and pics guys :D

[Fires59]

Just had alook at some of the swivel set ups on the first page, as i am a seafisherman i wouldnt use some of the swivels as they arnt strong enough for alot of the casting styles about. Alot of the them dont have breaking strains or have been tested before and not stood up to the pressure..

[HoumaFalconer]

Great Thread

[Jack Merlin]

jesses with double presstuds work well on flying spars I find, so long as they are sized correctly so they dont rub the rear of the tarsus or the hind toe.

If you mean jesses with the same sort of press studs as on the front of your Barbour jacket, guess who invented them!<g> And it wasn't Jack Mavrogordato!

Stiff leather jesses are fine -- until it rains. I use chain saw starter cord.

[Jack Merlin]

I uuse a thin string attached to the metal ring in your glove, slipps easely trough the anklets and down around your fingers, and slipps the bird perfect, wich result him/her flying in only anklets, on a kill it is very easy to slip the string back in to the anklets and secure the bird whilst eating.
Saw this first time when I worked at Nicks and adopted the idea.

That is the set up I use on the gos except I have small split ring varvels on the end of the starter cord jesses. The rings are small enough that if a twig got into one, it would break. One end of the cord is attached to my glove, and after going through the varvels, the end is held in my hand. To slip, I just open my hand. This cord also needs to be fairly stiff (very light starter cord) or it will snag. I don't recommend this to anyone but it works for me when I am riding an ATV with the hawk on one hand and trying to negotiate 45 degree slopes with the other hand on the handlebar!! We live dangerously in the Highlands.

[Tim Laycock]

If you mean jesses with the same sort of press studs as on the front of your Barbour jacket, guess who invented them!<g> And it wasn't Jack Mavrogordato!


Derry, I dreamed this type of jess up after getting a female spar wrapped up in a hawthorn bush when I was 12.

I will try to draw one, we may have "invented" the same thing at different times :lol:

[Jack Merlin]

Derry, I dreamed this type of jess up after getting a female spar wrapped up in a hawthorn bush when I was 12.

I will try to draw one, we may have "invented" the same thing at different times :lol:

Well, if you were 12 prior to December 1967 when my report of these jesses was published in The Falconer, I'd have to agree with you!<g> That's at least three people who have independently "invented" these jesses since that article was published.

[As The Falcon Her Bells]

I think "whatever works" is probably the most true statement. There is so many different ways of doing something and achive the same result, I feel safer knowing the birds has nothing that could potentionally get them caught up, but what you said BB seem as good as, so there we go!!

[As The Falcon Her Bells]

Well, if you were 12 prior to December 1967 when my report of these jesses was published in The Falconer, I'd have to agree with you!<g> That's at least three people who have independently "invented" these jesses since that article was published.

Ah I see what you mean now, did not get it by reading the post :rolleyes:

[Jack Merlin]

Ah I see what you mean now, did not get it by reading the post :rolleyes:

But I don't use snap jesses on the gos, only free lofted spars. Nor are they safe for falcons or any bird that tends to bite at their jesses as they will quickly remove them.

My system for the gos (which involved chain saw starter cord) has not yet been perfected so I am not encouraging others to use it. I'm sure we will agree with the sense of that!<g>

[As The Falcon Her Bells]

On a falcon I would only ever use the separate anklets with eyelets as ours spend most of their time outside on a block when not flying.
I dont use the traditionall jessies/anklets at all as they are far to dangerous to fly a bird in, on the very few gosses I flown I used short flying jessies, even tough I can see how the system I have on the falcons could work if modified.

[Tim Laycock]

Derry,
This was roughly what I came up with for spars, very similar though not the same.

please excuse the drawing :oops:

[Tasha55403]

How did/do you attach the snaps? I tried sewing and glueing and it just never seemed up to par for me. Part of that was that I was keeping the aylmeri style (just added a hole behind the snap for the jesses to pass through). That put the hole for the jesses just the right length to let the halux get stuck:evil: Not good. Hopefully I'll be able to fly this years bird without jesses-that would be sweet and I could use your style without having to worry about it:) I have high hopes...can you tell:lol:

[Tim Laycock]

Tasha, In my version ther were sewn on snaps but in Derrys picture on the previous page they are rivited presstuds

[Fawkes]

Sean, we use this fishing swivel method extensively at our center. Bear in mind that many of the smaller swivels are no good for tethering some of the larger birds (FHH etc) as they easily bend when the bird bates at the perch. Worse the ring which attaches to the leash bends and the bird flys off with the swivel holding the jesses together, just waiting to get snagged on the first tree branch it lands in.

[Fawkes]

BB, that is an interesting system - is it too weak for the larger birds?
I like the idea of getting as much off the birds feet as possible.

[Osiris]

lol not sure hwat its called. but martin hollinshead talked about a method of use permanent flying jesses, with very very small holes in the end, they attached is one largle or 2 small fishing swvils. that clip into the holes. can anyone explain this in more detail, and any pics if possible. i think his permanent jesses were buttoned, that went through the anklet, so how did these stay on?

For my lanneret i use a sampo snaps type swivel such as the pic attached. Works a treat. Although, the reason i use these is to try and stop my lanneret getting "tangled-up" on his block. A leash is attached to the swivel to which a "rubber-plastic" tubing is threaded through the leash to which stops the leash getting tangled up.
Great swivels.

[Sean]

thanks very much osiris, ive heard about this tubing, but what is it, and how does it prevent tangles. do you use it as that system can tangle easier, or would u use it with the traditional set up too

[GaryPCO]

Derry,
This was roughly what I came up with for spars, very similar though not the same.

please excuse the drawing :oops:
definately a better safer design!!!:cool:

[Jack Merlin]

That put the hole for the jesses just the right length to let the halux get stuck:evil: Not good.

Not good at all.

That was the problem with my starter cord jess set up and why I won't publish yet. I got two broken hind talons, one in a peregrine and one a gos. At least, I think that was the cause. The talon got caught in the clip and broke when the bird closed its foot on quarry. The pressures must be tremendous. I have since solved that but still would not recommend the starter cord flying jess until I've found a safer method of attachment.

[Jack Merlin]

Derry,
This was roughly what I came up with for spars, very similar though not the same.

please excuse the drawing :oops:

The drawing is pretty good!

I think the bottom line is that snap jesses should only be used for (a) a free lofted bird, and (b) when out hawking.

They make these snaps in all sizes so I am sure there is something out there that could be used for a gos. Try your local yachting centre or ships' chandler.

I do in fact use these jesses all the time on my spars, even when weathering outside. But that is my choice --and risk. I've had one (only) come off on a spar, but merlins and kestrels and other small falcons will get them off in minutes.

I invented these when my spar starred as a wild bird in a TV Survival series and it was flown "naked". No jesses, no bells, and definitely no telemetry!

[Tim Laycock]

Derry, I used them at weather too.
The hole that the snap threads through was an attempt to make then slightly more difficult for the hawk to remove.

I was even known to put some insulation tape around the closed ring, not a problem you would have had to deal with in the good old days<g>

[Jack Merlin]

Derry, I used them at weather too.
The hole that the snap threads through was an attempt to make then slightly more difficult for the hawk to remove.

Tim,

The point to my snap jeses is that they can be put on or taken off with the right hand only while the hawk is still on the fist.

[Tim Laycock]

Likewise Derry but I was doing it with very small nimble fingers ;)

[Jack Merlin]

Likewise Derry but I was doing it with very small nimble fingers ;)

Certainly not the work hardened arthritic appendages of senile old farmers, for sure!<g>

[Tim Laycock]

Very true :lol:

[Osiris]

thanks very much osiris, ive heard about this tubing, but what is it, and how does it prevent tangles. do you use it as that system can tangle easier, or would u use it with the traditional set up too

Its just a platic-rubber type tube, to which is "supple/hard" enough so that when the hawk goes round its block, the tubing stop the leash going round the block which stops tangling and thus doesn't harm the feet in anyway as it cannot get tangled. I could have taken a pic for you with my lanneret using it, although i have just placed him into moult in the aviary. Cleaning out tomorrow, so will get pic for u.

I only use it for my lanneret as it seems he can get himself tangled up using the traditional set-up. A lot of people are now starting to use this method up here with their falcons and some hawks that are on blocks. I would use it as a traditional setup too.

Will try and gets pics tomorrow for u. ATB, Jamie

[Yarak1]

On a falcon I would only ever use the separate anklets with eyelets as ours spend most of their time outside on a block when not flying.
I dont use the traditionall jessies/anklets at all as they are far to dangerous to fly a bird in, on the very few gosses I flown I used short flying jessies, even tough I can see how the system I have on the falcons could work if modified.

This what we use on our birds.....works well for us with no problems to date...............
excuse the poor picture...........The flying strap is under the eyelet not through it...........

[Sean]

thats great osi cheers mate,
yarak thats what i have been using, ive never seen it talked about in here before, but could a eyelet get caught on a stick or twig on a branch?

[Tim Laycock]

Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Kevin Massey]

yarak thats what i have been using, ive never seen it talked about in here before, but could a eyelet get caught on a stick or twig on a branch?

sean if you are on about the slit in the mews jess.....remember this is remoced when flying your hawk, and only the perminent flying jess used

[Tim Laycock]

I think sean means the hole in the eyelet when the mews jess is removed.

Thats what Im driving at :yawinkle:

Fine for falcons but Im not too keen for shortwings

[Sean]

Yes BB i mean the hole in the eyelet