what price will you be charging this year?

[North East Harris Hawker]

Whilst this is aimed at the breeders, I think it will also be usefull for potential buyers.
please state what you are breeding and WHY you are charging the price you are.
Me? I have harris hawks
males £350
females £450 expensive? maybe but the parents cost top dollar and have heavy hunting weights. There is a lot goes into getting breeding right and raising youngsters on a quality diet to give them the best start in life comes at a price. Anyone could bring youngsters up on chick alone/inbreed/hand rear to cut costs/bolster profits. I choose not to.
what are you breeding? and at what price?

[Osiris]

Whilst this is aimed at the breeders, I think it will also be usefull for potential buyers.
please state what you are breeding and WHY you are charging the price you are.
Me? I have harris hawks
males £350
females £450 expensive? maybe but the parents cost top dollar and have heavy hunting weights. There is a lot goes into getting breeding right and raising youngsters on a quality diet to give them the best start in life comes at a price. Anyone could bring youngsters up on chick alone/inbreed/hand rear to cut costs/bolster profits. I choose not to.
what are you breeding? and at what price?

I think £350 for a male and £450 for a female HH is reasonable. I paid £450 for my female HH last year. Parents were top in my book.
I aint no breeder but this can turn into a v.interesting thread! :D

[Jack Merlin]

The definition of "value" is that price agreed between a willing seller and a willing buyer.

So if your clients are willing to pay those prices, that is what they are worth!

That's official. I'm a qualified valuer and chartered surveyor.<g>

[GM090158]

I paid 450 for my FHH last year and I am paying 325 for a male thisd year. Known breeder with excelent history, I believe that you get what you pay for.

[Tim Laycock]

I have Finnish Goshawk eggs running in an incubator, unsure of fertility :rolleyes:

If hatched, standard prices for pure finnish birds apply though I doubt they will be sold here :yawinkle:

[As The Falcon Her Bells]

I still think Harris Hawks are far to cheap, price for male is ok, but for females is redicilous, no wonder we have every Tom Dick and Harry with a bl**dy hh on his/her fist!!

[FlameHairedFalconer]

I paid £450 for my first male harris 9 years ago - he flew at 1lb 3oz and I specifically asked for a small male.

So I think those prices are pretty cheap (pardon the pun!)

FHH

[Fires59]

I still think Harris Hawks are far to cheap, price for male is ok, but for females is redicilous, no wonder we have every Tom Dick and Harry with a bl**dy hh on his/her fist!!


Dont agree with you there with people having alot of spare cash these days, even goshawks etc are in everyones budget if i was after a status symbol what bird would you have. Mate just come back from kiev and said they everyone had goshawks on the hand asking people for photos.

[Roo]

I still think Harris Hawks are far to cheap, price for male is ok, but for females is redicilous, no wonder we have every Tom Dick and Harry with a bl**dy hh on his/her fist!!

They are cheap - surely just demand/supply..., but I don't think artificially high prices are what's needed - idiots with lot's of money can still buy them and it could possibly price out genuine people. It all goes back to breeders doing their part to ensure the birds go to good homes and the potential buyers doing their part to provide a good life for the bird!

[As The Falcon Her Bells]

I dont agree, the prices of birds are to cheap no matter what you say, in fact animals in the UK is suprisingly cheap compered to some other European countrys, offcourse there is also people with a lot of cach that is irresponsible, but I still think a life is to cheap. A HH is a bird for life (or should be anyway, I also think a lot of people "start" with a hh for a year and then get rid of it for a gos hawk, falcon, etc. another problem...) and can be a excelent partner, but should be worth more then 350 quid.
Prices for birds in the UK is going down by the year, Barn owls you can get given, no wonder many of them end up in rabbit hutches, I dont think raising the prices is a answer to the problem, but it will certainly help a bit on the way.

[Sparrow Hawker]

I dont agree, the prices of birds are to cheap no matter what you say, in fact animals in the UK is suprisingly cheap compered to some other European countrys, offcourse there is also people with a lot of cach that is irresponsible, but I still think a life is to cheap. A HH is a bird for life (or should be anyway, I also think a lot of people "start" with a hh for a year and then get rid of it for a gos hawk, falcon, etc. another problem...) and can be a excelent partner, but should be worth more then 350 quid.
Prices for birds in the UK is going down by the year, Barn owls you can get given, no wonder many of them end up in rabbit hutches, I dont think raising the prices is a answer to the problem, but it will certainly help a bit on the way.

Totally agree, the cheaper birds become the more chance there is they will fall into the wrong hands, it's by no means going to solve the problem but it may well just help reduce the problem.

All The Best,

SH

[Tim Laycock]

Precicely why I will be asking top money for any surplus Goshawks I sell

[Roo]

Totally agree, the cheaper birds become the more chance there is they will fall into the wrong hands, it's by no means going to solve the problem but it may well just help reduce the problem.

All The Best,

SH
(being specific to HH's here)
Not ideal for the reasons I gave, but I agree it may stop some birds from falling into the wrong hands which is a start, but it creates another problem - suddenly the breeders have more than they can sell and if HH's are suddenly artificially more expensive it may become more attractive to the so called 'backyard breeders' to breed more :rolleyes: Just breeding fewer sounds a better idea to me (how though!?), reducing the supply should increase the price people are willing to pay but I'm not too good on economics and have no idea about the market for falconry birds :neutral:

[Fires59]

Precicely why I will be asking top money for any surplus Goshawks I sell

But again that wont stop people wanting one, people have the money its like saying will would you have a fiesta or a rs turbo. people will pay silly money no matter what

[Tim Laycock]

Having the money is not the only criteria to secure one of my precious Goshawks :yawinkle:

[Roo]

But again that wont stop people wanting one, people have the money its like saying will would you have a fiesta or a rs turbo. people will pay silly money no matter what

That's where the breeder should make sure the bird is going to be looked after well, and I'm sure Blackbird would thoroughly vet any potential buyer!

But how many would if someone was waving a wad of cash in front of their face?

[Fires59]

Never said it was balckbird but you know what i am on about there are alot of breeders with goshawks as well as harris, and they will see the prices you charge and charge that as well. we will know yours are maybe better but a novice wont.

[Roo]

Never said it was balckbird but you know what i am on about there are alot of breeders with goshawks as well as harris, and they will see the prices you charge and charge that as well. we will know yours are maybe better but a novice wont.

Yes, I know you never said it was Blackbird, he appeared and I used him as an example (hope he doesn't mind!) I apologise for the confusion. Not sure why I'm getting involved anyway, I've never bought or sold a bird:oops:

[Fires59]

Yes, I know you never said it was Blackbird, he appeared and I used him as an example (hope he doesn't mind!) I apologise for the confusion. Not sure why I'm getting involved anyway, I've never bought or sold a bird:oops:


Dont worry about it, think there has been abit of confusion on both our parts:oops:

[As The Falcon Her Bells]

Thats the whole point, all prices should be up, backyard breeder or not, that will reduce costumers and so reduce back yard breeders.....
Female hh in my eyes should be 700-850 male 350-500
Goshawks should be well over 2500 for male and 3500-4000 for female
Falcons of any kind males should start on 500 and females on 1000
This will stop 15 years old spotty teenagers still wet behind their ears who will flythem a year and pass them on. How many teenagers in this country can afford to pay 700 quid without saving for a long time, and if they have saved for a long time, then that showes that they are serious.

[Saker-Clive]

Ok, this is obviously a hyperthetical senario........................

Tim, with what you know about me, my birds my hunting background etc. post on forums over the past 18 months etc. although we have never met, would you, if I was in the market for a Gos, sell me one of yours.............................
reasons for either choice you make;)

[CJ#HaRrIs HAwKs RuLe#]

I see your point putting prices up that high would defeniently put of kids.

but really i don't think its neccercerry (spelling) I do agree that the kind of people that your reffering to, that by on impulse and then move on this may not apply, but the bird is not the main expense. your forgetting all the equipment, time and dedication cost too. buying a bird is the last thing on my my list.

what about building avairys and bying posh balence scales all the leather tools perches, hoods the list gose on... I do agree that the people that keep barn owls in rabbit hutches proberly won't give a damm. but if you do things properly then you could end up spending at the very least £1500 on a hh.

its not just the price of the acctual bird thats puts people off, or should put people off.

[Jester]

A HH is a bird for life (or should be anyway, I also think a lot of people "start" with a hh for a year and then get rid of it for a gos hawk, falcon, etc. another problem...)

i wondered about this as well do these people vet potential buyers as well as everyone (including me) says breeders should vet them??

maybe some of them are so keen to get their gos or falcon they will sell to anyone just to get the money. so its maybe not just the breeders that cause the problems of neds in housing estates with HH on fist

[Johnny Abbott]

we paid 550 each for 2 fhh last yr from a chap in trowbridge dont mind paying top price for any bird 1 of the birds turned out great the other not so good but they were both very big birds we also had 2 males from him and both turned out to be very good birds

[Harris]

from my point of view comming back into the sport. I have worked out that by the time I have bought my bird, got all my equipment and muilt my mews, I will have spent around &#163;2500.00 which includes (new) telemetry and good quality kit! a lot of money I think to spend on HH. but then I beleive in doing things properly, so if prices were to be forced up, that would hurt my financially. I therefore don't think that price should come into it to a great extent. there are plenty of people out there with too much money to spend and little knowlede. I do agree that a small percent will be out priced but the only solution in my eyes, is that every bird purchaser, has to provide a licence, only issued after a successfull recognised training course and apprentiship period all their own expense of course. Its the only way forward, then for each new speices they want to own, a breed specific course should be attended before being licenced to buy a bird of that particular breed.

As long as prices are high, back street breeders will persist in selling to anyone who has the cash.

No profit, No problem.

[Hells99]

Precicely why I will be asking top money for any surplus Goshawks I sell
Are you just breeding on a small scale and to order, Blackbird? That to me is ok if you are not relying on breeding and selling as your sole supply of income and I applaud you for your strong ethics.

If, however, a person is using it as a sole supply of income, then making a living is the first thing on anyone's mind (naturally). No disrespect intended to the professional breeders - they've probably built their reputation and business over many years but the overheads for breeders must be horrendous and if business is slow then the temptation must be to sell and maybe not so many questions asked as usual. I'm not saying this is what the well established breeders do, but the temptation must be very strong to put a meal on the family table for someone in the early years of their business.

Backyard breeders who just sell to anyone are the ones dragging down the reputation of good breeders.

IMHO :wink: :oops:

[Moses]

I have Finnish Goshawk eggs running in an incubator, unsure of fertility :rolleyes:

If hatched, standard prices for pure finnish birds apply though I doubt they will be sold here :yawinkle:


lol me plz :D im joking mate lol

[Tim Laycock]

Ok, this is obviously a hyperthetical senario........................

Tim, with what you know about me, my birds my hunting background etc. post on forums over the past 18 months etc. although we have never met, would you, if I was in the market for a Gos, sell me one of yours.............................
reasons for either choice you make;)

Clive, as a rule my eyasses (If I get any) will de delivered, not picked up.
If I dont like the feel of where they are going the will be coming home! :wink:
I will be loath to let them leave yorkshire at any rate!

They are an extention of my bird at the end of the day and if the are not going to a mews and keeper of a similar mind and means they will stay with me and they can all scream the show down together :supz:

[Saker-Clive]

:goodman: :supz: so I can't have one then? :lol:

[Pitbull]

i think anyone with gos or RTs this year will be well in ( this years must have)

[Kevin Massey]

i think with more and more back yard breeders springing up all over the place...the price of the harris is getting driven down...i also feel that this year there will be a glut of them on the market

[FlameHairedFalconer]

i think anyone with gos or RTs this year will be well in ( this years must have)

Heaven forbid.....designer hawks.....:roll:

[GosFlyer]

Precicely why I will be asking top money for any surplus Goshawks I sell


I like the word ASKING, not picking on you BB but if there are more gos,s bred this year than last, and that is usualy the case when more ppl are breeding them, especialy the brown imprints coming into breeding fettle, and producing first year, it could be a buyers market and not a sellers, best gosses in the world around here you can pick up for 650 and 1200, even less if you shop around, i know what its like to have good birds unsold if you dont get them away at the right age they can be a lot of work to look after and the longer you keep them the more they eat. and who has got time to train more than one goss from scratch.:rolleyes:

[Joey]

i only paid 300 for my fhh and i think i got the bargain of a life time never could i spend better money. and any bop is next years thing

[Brit-Gos]

I still think Harris Hawks are far to cheap, price for male is ok, but for females is redicilous, no wonder we have every Tom Dick and Harry with a bl**dy hh on his/her fist!!

Totally agree with you

[BarneyAndMonty]

I've just noticed on the IBR site a person selling a FHH and kit for ?£350.........the reason........ going to college!!! That sums up the problem in one!!!

[KenHawker1970]

You get what you pay for.

[BarneyAndMonty]

You get what you pay for.

You do, but why buy a bird, only to sell it on when you go to college:confused:

[As The Falcon Her Bells]

This is what I am getting at, if this guy/girl have had to pay big money in the first place, then they would have to think twice before jumping in!!
I dont care what anyone say, birds of prey in this country has become to cheap, yes offcourse the breeder have a responsibility towards the bird not to sell it to any idiot who comes along, but even as a breeder you can only do so much.....
As for breeders who do it comercially, if anyone here tried to make their entire living on bop you will laugh as hard as I did reading that comment.....:lol::lol:

[Tim Laycock]

:goodman: :supz: so I can't have one then? :lol:

Never said that Clive :yawinkle:

[Tim Laycock]

I like the word ASKING, not picking on you BB but if there are more gos,s bred this year than last, and that is usualy the case when more ppl are breeding them, especialy the brown imprints coming into breeding fettle, and producing first year, it could be a buyers market and not a sellers, best gosses in the world around here you can pick up for 650 and 1200, even less if you shop around, i know what its like to have good birds unsold if you dont get them away at the right age they can be a lot of work to look after and the longer you keep them the more they eat. and who has got time to train more than one goss from scratch.

Im lucky in as much as that if they dont sell I know some good lads who will take them on permanant loan :supz:

Good birds for top men :supz: :supz: :supz:

[GosFlyer]

[QUOTE=Blackbird]Im lucky in as much as that if they dont sell I know some good lads who will take them on permanant loan :supz:




that's cheating getting someone to train them for you. put my name down.:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Tim Laycock]

It would seem a mile long que has formed already :lol: :rolleyes:

[MoltenMetal]

Higher prices will not stop ‘back-yard’ breeders: it will increase them, as novices will go to ‘back-yard’ breeders as they will be cheaper, and if back-yard breeders can sell more they will breed more.
So, if I can’t afford &#163;700-800 for a female Harris Hawk, or &#163;350-500 for a male and &#163;2500-4000 for a Goshawk, I cant look after and fly one? Therefore, in other words I should get another hobby or - as falconry is to me - another lifestyle.
That’s one way to kill a sport that needs as much support and newcomers as possible.
I don’t think increased prices are the way to go. So, we could possibly move on to vetting potential buyers, but how many breeders have the time and resources to travel the length and breadth of the country to do this? And yes, they might have the right to say what conditions they will let their birds go to, but who is to say what is right and what is wrong? The only way to do this is to do as the Americans do - have an apprenticeship and take wild birds, that instead of being sold on, can be released back to the wild as and when the falconer feels the need for a different bird.
You are also stating with these prices that falconry is just for the wealthy! Sounds like a hell of a lot of contradiction here as on another thread there are comments disapproving the selling on of birds of prey. But most people entering the sport/hobby are advised, if they want a broadwing, a Harris Hawk or Redtail would suit, or if a longwing is wanted a Lanner would suit. As these learners gain experience and knowledge, they want bigger, faster, better looking birds. It’s human nature. Going on this, one must be unfortunate enough to lose a bird one way or another to go on to a different bird, unless they have room for more than one.
The ultimate hawk is probably the Goshawk for large quarry hawking, or the sparrowhawk for hedgerow hawking. The ultimate gamehawk/falcon is probably the peregrine or hybrid of one. But who would suggest one of these as a first bird? No-one I would imagine, in their right mind. So, one has to work their way up.
On the other hand what about a Goshawk as a first bird? If not imprinted chances are it would do very well in the wild, if it was to be lost, likewise a peregrine. And if someone has just set them up with either of the above birds, with no mentor, they won’t have birds for long, so this would do away with the people who would like a go at falconry, not punish the ones who are committed to the sport/hobby.
As for Harris hawks being easy to train – yes they do seem to be because of their willingness to learn, but they learn the bad things just as quick as the good. Also in my opinion, I am able, with what I consider to be a first class mentor, to train and house two birds; one broadwing and one longwing. However, other people might be of the opinion I am not able to keep anything.

I await the flack.

Regards, Steve (who will hopefully one day be a good falconer!)

[Tim Laycock]

An interesting take on things Steve and one that on a whole I would agree with.

Though I dissagree with certain points I appreciate your sentiment and totaly understand the outlook you have on things.

[Onyx25]

I like the word ASKING, not picking on you BB but if there are more gos,s bred this year than last, and that is usualy the case when more ppl are breeding them, especialy the brown imprints coming into breeding fettle, and producing first year, it could be a buyers market and not a sellers, best gosses in the world around here you can pick up for 650 and 1200, even less if you shop around, i know what its like to have good birds unsold if you dont get them away at the right age they can be a lot of work to look after and the longer you keep them the more they eat. and who has got time to train more than one goss from scratch.:rolleyes:
wouldn't touch a gos at that money not a hope in hell of a proper finish bird!

[Dave Johnson]

Hi all
I was just wondering what breeders do with there surplus stock.It dosen't matter what specie is bred,some of you {be it top class breeders or back street breeders}must have on occasions have bred birds that you couldn't sell.Do you? get fed up of looking after them?or run out of space for them?Would you bring the price down to sell them?As a breeder of 80+ specie of waterfowl,we on occasions have stock we can't shift.Being waterfowl, we in the end do manage to shift these{use your imagination}You can't do this with a BOP.HONEST REPLIES ONLY PLEASE.Dave

[Hobby]

Hi all
I was just wondering what breeders do with there surplus stock.It dosen't matter what specie is bred,some of you {be it top class breeders or back street breeders}must have on occasions have bred birds that you couldn't sell.Do you? get fed up of looking after them?or run out of space for them?Would you bring the price down to sell them?As a breeder of 80+ specie of waterfowl,we on occasions have stock we can't shift.Being waterfowl, we in the end do manage to shift these{use your imagination}You can't do this with a BOP.HONEST REPLIES ONLY PLEASE.DaveJust spoke to a chap today working on a landfill site doing clearence who said his boss has just bought five untrained 05 male gyr /sakers last week for a thousand pounds.Saw one of them it was in poor feather.

[Dave Johnson]

Just spoke to a chap today working on a landfill site doing clearence who said his boss has just bought five untrained 05 male gyr /sakers last week for a thousand pounds.Saw one of them it was in poor feather.

It sounds like this guy couldn't sell his hybred 05 birds,and sold them off cheaply.I bet there is a lot of stories like this but people wont admit to them.It took a long time for the first reply, over an hour.I thought it would.Dave

[Eggy]

Precicely why I will be asking top money for any surplus Goshawks I sell
what prices for males .please

[Tim Laycock]

£ 850

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

Are they garunteed to turn out to be females like their mum Tim? PMSL!

[Tim Laycock]

Are they garunteed to turn out to be females like their mum Tim? PMSL!

It wont be happening to me Karl :yawinkle:

they wont be sold until Im sure :yawinkle:

<btw>
First refusal on all young has been given already :supz:

[Natch]

i have been breeding finish goshawks for more than ten years now, long way to go before they hatch dont catch your chickens to soon. to get one would be great good luck natch
bristols number one goshawk BREEDER..........:supz: :finga:

[Tim Laycock]

long way to go before they hatch dont catch your chickens to soon.

Dont I know it m8, good to know where thay are going if the hatch though, its about the only thing about trying to breed them that has been both organised and easy :yawinkle:

[GosFlyer]

wouldn't touch a gos at that money not a hope in hell of a proper finish bird!


7/8 finnish is that close enough. :rolleyes:

[Tim Laycock]

Very much like a 7/8 Gyr x saker!

Never going to be a gyr is it :yawinkle:

[Hacker]

Forget the price, what is the pedigree of these birds, are they good hunters, is the line inbred, are they good breeding stock, or are they mongrels, why do people just ask the price, i can sell you golden eagles for £1000.00 but they are cr+*p.

[Tim Laycock]

Which birds?

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

Very much like a 7/8 Gyr x saker!

Never going to be a gyr is it :yawinkle:
If you get your registration and A10 back from DEFRA for said Gyr hybrid. The Reg doc and A10 frequently record Gyr as the species dispite your honestly recording Gyr hybrid on the reg Doc'. But thats DEFRA for you! Dont get caught buy this one, there are a few people who have flogged them as pure birds to falconers in the UK.

[Tim Laycock]

I know Karl, truly madness :rolleyes:

And these morons are the record keepers :roll:

<btw> still aint no Gyr :yawinkle: :lol:

[Onyx25]

imo true finish gosses (2.12.upwards for the females) are still worth £2000.00 but as discussed in the past there are very few left.

[Tim Laycock]

You cant judge a pure Finn by weight!

A 2lb 2oz tiercel onto a 3lb 8oz female can throw small birds, this happens regularly.

A pure Finn is not simply denoted by size alone :!:

Colouring and temprament are a far more accurate yardstick

[Onyx25]

You cant judge a pure Finn by weight!

A 2lb 2oz tiercel onto a 3lb 8oz female can throw small birds, this happens regularly.

A pure Finn is not simply denoted by size alone :!:

Colouring and temprament are a far more accurate yardstick
no but its a good yard stick! freinds of mine who flew proper imported finnish gosses a long time ago would of been most upset if they flew any less than 2.10 and those were passage birds! Size dosen't mean finish but have you everseen a 3.0lb german bird?

[Tim Laycock]

I agree to an extent but you are living in the past!

If we had minus tempratures all year round our pure finnish birds would all still be the monsters of old but this is not the case.
As such it is expected for Finnish birds to throw smaller young, it is simply a combination of evolution and natural selection trying to take a hand in things.
All the pure lines are now starting to throw smaller birds in and amongst others.

[Onyx25]

I agree to an extent but you are living in the past!

If we had minus tempratures all year round our pure finnish birds would all still be the monsters of old but this is not the case.
As such it is expected for Finnish birds to throw smaller young, it is simply a combination of evolution and natural selection trying to take a hand in things.
All the pure lines are now starting to throw smaller birds in and amongst others.
Cant believe that 30 years could have that sort of effect on evolution but may be wrong (are gyrs 1/2lb less than they used to be)? more likely people selling so called finnish birds (crosses) which then get something else accross them breeder sells as finish etc. today breeders are a bit more switched on than in the past and try to breed off their best rather than anything.Having said that Id rather have a smaller bird from proven hunting lines than an unproven lump!

[Onyx25]

The point of all this is that a genuine large finnish bird from proven hunting lines is worth far more than the £1200 mentioned earlier!

[Tim Laycock]

You cant compare Gyrs with Goshawks, two entiely different metabolisims!
How do you explain proven finnish strain pairings suddenly throwing small birds?

The point of all this is that a genuine large finnish bird from proven hunting lines is worth far more than the £1200 mentioned earlier!

Still totaly agree with this.

[GosFlyer]

Very much like a 7/8 Gyr x saker!

Never going to be a gyr is it :yawinkle:

theres not that many pure finnish about BB you may think you have one but i bet a tenner mine is as close to as yours. i realy am not interested in pure finnish birds, a good hunter is what i am aiming for. with finnish temprement as with ALL northern birds for some reason they arent as wild. but hunting ability over size any day. plus iv seen gosses flying and thats all they have done at silly weights the first thing i would do with the same bird is knock two ounces off the thing, might as well fly a keen harris as half hearted gos. just decided mines pure finnish just incase someone wants semen in a year or so.:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Tim Laycock]

Your bird may well be a pure Finnish like mine, thats not realy the issue :yawinkle:

I would still rather fly a half hearted Gos than the most determined harris in the world m8, its like the prererence between tea and coffee (I wont drink tea though some like it)

We are seriously digressing from the thread :rolleyes:

[Onyx25]

You cant compare Gyrs with Goshawks, two entiely different metabolisims!
How do you explain proven finnish strain pairings suddenly throwing small birds?



Still totaly agree with this.
You might have to look much deeper than the parents, back as far as the great granparent birds and further. i.e were they all the absolute biggest/bestcolour/best hunters etc out of the clutches or the ones left over or mediocre in-between birds (natural selection plays no part in our birds). Where they line bred or paired as far apart as possible or even inbred? Absolutely sure there are no german birds along the way? So many questions to answer the other question.On average big stock will produce more big youngsters than smaller pairs/lines.Obviousley large birds throw some small youngsters and small pairs can throw large youngsters but for example if trying to breed pure white gyrs would you pair two blacks together and hope for whites? even though it is perfectly possible. I still think the size of so called finish birds in this country has far more to do with breeding than the temperature?

[Tim Laycock]

My reference to natural selection was totaly valid.
A pair can throw small young, the fact that natural selection does not play a part in deciding if the larger or smaller young fare better is irrelevant. The varied sizes of the birds is still natural selection trying to take a hand in things.

I hope you grasp what Im driving at as I totaly get your point.

[Onyx25]

My reference to natural selection was totaly valid.
A pair can throw small young, the fact that natural selection does not play a part in deciding if the larger or smaller young fare better is irrelevant. The varied sizes of the birds is still natural selection trying to take a hand in things.

I hope you grasp what Im driving at as I totaly get your point.
Yes I can see your point but still think its a bit more complex. Temp is important with eggs we found those run at 37.4 hatched more females than those at .5 and before you all say im mad reptiles eggs are the same but more males hatch.Just what we found but those with more exp please correct me if wrong. Another interesting fact is that in order to breed true to type some amount of inbreeding is neccasary same in dogs etc

[Tim Laycock]

Wouldnt know about that

[Onyx25]

Yes I can see your point but still think its a bit more complex. Temp is important with eggs we found those run at 37.4 hatched more females than those at .5 and before you all say im mad reptiles eggs are the same but more males hatch.Just what we found but those with more exp please correct me if wrong. Another interesting fact is that in order to breed true to type some amount of inbreeding is neccasary same in dogs etc
sorry useless post dnt know why I wrote it??????????? lol