Keep taking the pills!

[NewBird]

I am about to have to start Bird on antibiotics - 2 powder filled capsules twice a day and a 1/4 of a tablet once per day.
I have tried hiding it in food but she won't have it, so I guess I am going to have to push it down her throat. She will be on the drugs for seven days - anyone got any clever tips or methods that were successful?
NewBird

[GregMik]

Have you tried opening a tidbit to make a pouch, and opening the capsule. Pour the meds directly into the pouch and then feed the tidbit. Make sure that the tidbit is small enouph for her to eat whole. If they have to pull on it it may break open and meds usually taste nasty.

Greg

[NewBird]

Have you tried opening a tidbit to make a pouch, and opening the capsule. Pour the meds directly into the pouch and then feed the tidbit. Make sure that the tidbit is small enouph for her to eat whole. If they have to pull on it it may break open and meds usually taste nasty.

Greg
Sadly yes! Usually she takes chick heads whole. So today I carefully opened a head, mixed the powders with the brain inside and replaced the contents. Any neuro-surgeon would have been proud of me. As soon as she took hold of it her tongue must have touched the contents as it was rejected immediately. My other problem is that she will not take 'meat' (ie bits of beef or quail breast etc) at the moment and will only consider DOC and quails heads - so I can't get her to take suitable titbits.
NewBird

[Pitbull]

would the powder mixed with water alter the state of the drug as you could mix it with watertill it disolves and soak the quail / doc in it..:idea: :?:

[Fires59]

would open the cavity of the chick and mix it in to the gut section of the chick, may taste better with the mixture mixed in among the blood and guts of the chick:)

[Coedhirion]

Try mixing the powder from the capsule with a tiny drop of flatish coca cola!!
They like the sweat taste and it comes out nice an sticky to suirt in to chick head or body.

[Harris]

What about mixing it with the yolk of a DOC, that must surely hide the taste.

[Coedhirion]

What about mixing it with the yolk of a DOC, that must surely hide the taste.
Tried most things and coke is about the best, the stuff kinda disolves a bit too, otherwise a fussy bird will be spitting the tiniest little granules out again.

[Kitana]

What we do with BoP is put the entire capsule into a day old chick stomach, don't know the english name, gizzard?!?! It's a rond, muscular, strong organ in the abdomen of the chick with 2 holes in it, for the esophagus and the intestine. Realy easy to find and almost made precisely for that use! So you don't open the capsule to prevent the medicine taste to distribute in the meat and you have 2 choices: only feed that organ to the hungry bird, along with 1-3 other tidbits, andbe sure it ate them all before you give the rest of the lunch, or return the stomach in the chick and give the whole chick.

Beware, finding pills hidden under mats is common with BoP.

But yes if this doesn't work you will have to give the pill yourself. It's still best to hide them in the chick stomach even if you put them in your bird's throat yourself, to be sure the pill doesn't stick in the throat.

[Pitbull]

bring the bird down in weight for the week..:?:

[Kitana]

bring the bird down in weight for the week..:?:

Mmmm sorry but I do not agree on that. I don't know the reson why this birds has to take antibiotics, but usually that's because they are sick. And sick birds need all the energy available to have a strong immune system. Bringing the weight down to make the bird hungry might slow down its mmune system too.

On the other hand the stress from being physically restrained is also a factor that can shut down any bird immune system.

Now if it does not work you could clicker train the bird to eat the stomach containing the pill. Very simple, easy if you are clicker-savvy. But first try to hide it...

[Big JoeJoe]

Ask your vet if they can give you a solid form of antibiotic? you can then break small pieces up and put it into the head of the chick it should not taste that mine never have when they have been treated for injury. If not get a syringe and a brown needle mix the capsule powder in a small amount of water and inject small amounts of the fluid deep in to a nice piece of rabbit or a meat of your choice and give it to the bird bit by bit if you must.

Cheers BJJ

[NewBird]

Mmmm sorry but I do not agree on that. I don't know the reson why this birds has to take antibiotics, but usually that's because they are sick. And sick birds need all the energy available to have a strong immune system. Bringing the weight down to make the bird hungry might slow down its mmune system too.

On the other hand the stress from being physically restrained is also a factor that can shut down any bird immune system.

Now if it does not work you could clicker train the bird to eat the stomach containing the pill. Very simple, easy if you are clicker-savvy. But first try to hide it...
Well said ! Bird is on the drugs because her only real symptom is weight loss and so I certainly don't want to drop the weight. She has always refused chick stomachs and intestine and won't eat individual bits of meat at the moment. So I will have to go for a finger down the back of the throat. I plan to wrap the powders in liver as it should slip down easily.
I'll let you know how I get on - always assuming she hasnt eaten my fingers!
Regards
NewBird

[Kitana]

You surely know that already, but the sides of the beak do not cut so you can stick a finger at the corner of the beak to keep it open, watch for the windpipe and give the pill down the throat.

Had any bloodwork done?

[Sprout]

What is the diagnosis? Just putting a bird on anti-biotics for "weight loss" is poor medicine and potentially dangerous. If a proper diagnosis has not been made you need to take her somewhere with experience who can make the diagnosis for you. What anti-biotics are they and what dose? YOu also need to consider what to do post anti-biotics, after giving my falcon a course for bumblefoot he nearly died of clostridia, as there was no competition from other bacteria - so always use a pro-biotic after anti-biotics

[Kitana]

so always use a pro-biotic after anti-biotics

Or even at the same time...

You are so right Sprout... A fading bird is often hard to diagnose correctly, but bloodwork and xrays are the basis of the diagnosis, not empirical antibiotics...

[Zam]

Or even at the same time...

You are so right Sprout... A fading bird is often hard to diagnose correctly, but bloodwork and xrays are the basis of the diagnosis, not empirical antibiotics...


Could you clarify that point for me? I was always under the impression you couldn't give pro-biotics at the same time as anti-biotics, as the "anti" wiped out the good bugs in the "pro".

Grateful for your opinion on that!!

[LadyHawke]

I'm blessed with a really greedy bird, who'll take food at any time, at any weight, but i have had this problem giving sporanox (nasty tasting, gooey stuff), where he completely divorced me, and refused to take anything I offered. I had to bring his weight down a bit to get him to take it again, but I can appreciate that you might not want to d this if she is on medication. Good tip about the cola, though, I'm going to try that if I need to give pills again.

[Kitana]

Could you clarify that point for me? I was always under the impression you couldn't give pro-biotics at the same time as anti-biotics, as the "anti" wiped out the good bugs in the "pro".

Grateful for your opinion on that!!

It depends on the antibiotic used and the kind of probiotics used. Each antibiotic has its own target bacterias and some of them will not destroy probiotic. Some probiotic bacterias will be able to attach and multiply before being killed, and while they are there there is no place for clostridium and other pathogenic bacterias to prolifere.

We have to keep in mind that the effect of probiotics is not documented in animals, and even in humans it is not clear if it works or not. The commercially available probiotics are lactobacillus and bifidus bacterias, which are typical human normal-flora. But, they are not part of the flora of carnivorous species. Can they harm the animals No. Can they thrive or survive in an anmal? It remains unknown. But better be safe than sorry!...

[LadyHawke]

it's unfortunate that your hawk is on antibiotics before a diagnosis can be reached, as this will now mask the problem. Any mute samples, etc done before the course began?

[Coedhirion]

crushed tablets are often harder to get in to a fussy bird than powder. A finger down the throat could spell disaster if you get it wrong. The normal way if forced in to that kind of treatment is a crop tube.
better to disolve the stuff in something palatable and inject in to food. Quail is normally found more of a treat if the DOC is being turnd down. Try a quail head or call your vet back and tell him the problem, they may come up with a better alternative. Also find ouy if the vet knows what is being treated, some just hand out antibiotics if they dont know what the problem is. Then you cant be sure it is the correct one, some treat some things and others a different set of bugs.

[Kitana]

Be careful when diluting medications, cola is so acidic I would be very afraid of the risk of destroying the meds in the process.

A training that can be easily done in a healthy bird, in case it becomes sick and has to take foul-tasting medications, is to clicker-train it to accept medications. Of course you have to know how to clicker-train an animal but it works wonders. It as been developped fr elephants, which are the most difficult species to orally medicate as they detect any weird taste and never take anything that taste bad.

Basically what you do is present a piece of food, in the case of BoP I would use a DOC stomach, and click+reward the bird if it takes it. Then you add a pill in the stomach, lets say a water-soluble vitamin, or fatty acid pill, and click the bird to accept it. Always present the stomach the same way so teh bird know there is something not right with this food, don't try to trick it to take it. Then you add something with a bad taste in it, like baking soda, and click the bird to take it. It becomes clear to the bird that if he acepts to eat the preented item, there wil be a very good reward for him at theend. Works wonders with cats and dogs too.

[Zam]

Thanks, Kitana, for your detailed reply to my question on pro and anti-biotics.

I always wait until the end of the course of anti-biotics before using pro-biotics - but from what you say, as long as you know the specific anti/pro-biotics, I could give them simultaneously?

That is very interesting, as I imagine it would be more beneficial to the birds' gut flora (maintaining a good balance) to feed them together?

Thanks for that

[Jack Merlin]

There is nothing new about the problem of getting a bird to accept foul tasting medicine! This is what Edmund Bert said about dosing a hawk for worms 400 years ago:

"The best is take good worm seed in a shell or spoon and put thereto a little water and let it stand a night or two to swell, so that the water may be drunk up in the seeds; then put them into meat sewed up finely, or into any small gut knit (i.e. tied up with thread) at both ends, and give a couple thereof with tiring or plumage presently after, until they be put over, and still play with her, and let her taste meat and tire, until she has made a mute thereof. "


Sounds similar to Kitana's excellent suggestion of using a DOC's stomach for the same purpose. I'd use a piece of pigeon or chicken gut, dipped in blood and fed along with several similar tid-bits.

[Shaun Byrne]

I normally get Antibiotics in liquid form and inject them into chick heads. This is then given to the bird first thing in the morning after casting, they normally just swallow them whole.

[Coedhirion]

I normally get Antibiotics in liquid form and inject them into chick heads. This is then given to the bird first thing in the morning after casting, they normally just swallow them whole.

Thats how most of ours come, but some aren't made that way. It was the Raptor vet who said about the Cola and it worked fine.

[Sprout]

Some good posts. Some anti-biotics are coated or have capsules to protect from gut acids so if they are crushed or the capsules opened they may not be protected and the anti-biotics rendered inactive by the acid - ask your vet before doing anything like that.
How is the bird now?

[NewBird]

Some good posts. Some anti-biotics are coated or have capsules to protect from gut acids so if they are crushed or the capsules opened they may not be protected and the anti-biotics rendered inactive by the acid - ask your vet before doing anything like that.
How is the bird now?
Bird is still bright, squeaky etc. Mutes samples showed up nothing.Thanks to your feeding suggestion (little, more often) Her weight has held stable for the last 5 days although about 1.5 oz below her 'normal'. Tried several of the suggestions but have had to resort to pushing down throat. But she regurgitated the last two feeds (only those with pills - not unadulterated stuff)so tonight I walked her for 1.5 hours after her feed until dark and we'll see if it stays down.

She is on antirobe and metronidazole - I am uncertain about feeding probiotics at the same time as the antibiotics but would always put animals (ie horses etc) on them after the course is finished. Is this too risky with a bird ?
Regards
NewBird