Bumblefoot

[AndyYounger]

Who has come across bumblefoot in the past. understanding and treating it etc.My tiercel Barbary contracted bunblefoot from a small puncture in his right foot. i treated it with a broad spectrum antibiotic and it seemed to go away. about five days after this it started to re-appear. this is when i went to the vet and he was operated on. He is now doing very well.

Have any of you had similar experiences and what was the cause/cure etc.
Regards
Andy

[Sandeep]

Hi

Never had a case of bumble foot... Only one instance we had confiscated a peregrine from a bird market and it had a very mild case of bumblefoot. Just applied some antiseptic and kept it on an astroturf perch. In about a week the wound had dried and he scab just fell off. Released the bird during its return migration.

[Sprout]

Call me sceptical but have you been speaking to Yarak this morning?? Bit coincidental this thread coming up after our long "discussion" last night! Anyway, birds crabbing themselves is NOT primarily a cause of bumblefoot, birds crabbing themselves is a cause of foot INFECTIONS. A foot infection left alone and not managed/treated correctly will cause problems similar to bumblefoot but it is not the same condition. Bumblefoot is a chronic condition, also called pododermatitis and is a condition eagles and falcons get. Essentially it is a pressure related problem to the base of the foot and results in the vascular supply to the skin being compromised. Over time the skin becomes inflammed, thinner and weaker (chnaging of perches at this time will reverse the condition). If not noticed it will progress so the normal bacteria on the skin penetrate the foot and cause infection that generally will not respond to antibiotics as the pus created by avain patients is thick (unlike mammals) so will not drain, it needs to be surgically removed. If left the infection will ultimately destroy tendon sheaths and bone and at this point the only treatment is euthanasia. Essentially bumblefoot is a management problem - if you have cases of it then you need to look carefully at your perches.

[Pink_Eagle]

i think perches are the main cause like sprout said, but dont forget tht not just falcons and hawks get it, a cream called preperation H, is meant to work quite well, but prevention is better than treatment

[Falcon911]

I had a similar thing - picked up a Peregrine that had been thumping onto the ground in an aviary - heavy gravel - and had scabs on its feet. Simple case of putting it on an astroturf block and rubbing Germolene in twice a day, feeding it on the glove trying my hardest to hold the food down for the bird so that it minimised contact with the food. Took a while but full recovery.
To the other extreme I had a Kestrel that punctured its foot, had it taped up, gave it general antibiotics whilst putting some concoction into the plaster/tape once a day with a syringe. Again it worked. Maybe I was lucky?
Cheers
Andy

[Sprout]

To the other extreme I had a Kestrel that punctured its foot, had it taped up, gave it general antibiotics whilst putting some concoction into the plaster/tape once a day with a syringe. Again it worked. Maybe I was lucky?
Cheers
Andy
Foot infections caught early before pus is produced will respond nicely to anti-biotics, but it isn't bumblefoot.

[Yarak1]

Call me sceptical but have you been speaking to Yarak this morning?? Bit coincidental this thread coming up after our long "discussion" last night! Anyway, birds crabbing themselves is NOT primarily a cause of bumblefoot, birds crabbing themselves is a cause of foot INFECTIONS. A foot infection left alone and not managed/treated correctly will cause problems similar to bumblefoot but it is not the same condition. Bumblefoot is a chronic condition, also called pododermatitis and is a condition eagles and falcons get. Essentially it is a pressure related problem to the base of the foot and results in the vascular supply to the skin being compromised. Over time the skin becomes inflammed, thinner and weaker (chnaging of perches at this time will reverse the condition). If not noticed it will progress so the normal bacteria on the skin penetrate the foot and cause infection that generally will not respond to antibiotics as the pus created by avain patients is thick (unlike mammals) so will not drain, it needs to be surgically removed. If left the infection will ultimately destroy tendon sheaths and bone and at this point the only treatment is euthanasia. Essentially bumblefoot is a management problem - if you have cases of it then you need to look carefully at your perches.

Hi Sprout,actually no he hasn't mate.I was as surprised as you to see the thread!!!!!!!!!!1

[Dave G]

so spout bumble foot is more prone on bigger hawks and the amount of pressure on the feet ???, and if any bird hawk or falcon has a cut or open wound if treated straight away will prevent infections which if im right to say some people seem to think this causes bumble foot ??

[MickeyDredd]

so spout bumble foot is more prone on bigger hawks and the amount of pressure on the feet ???,

Will it not all be relative, size-wise?

[Sprout]

so spout bumble foot is more prone on bigger hawks and the amount of pressure on the feet ???, and if any bird hawk or falcon has a cut or open wound if treated straight away will prevent infections which if im right to say some people seem to think this causes bumble foot ??
Correct - in part. Bumblefoot is not recognised in hawks at all, they do not have the same vascular problems as eagles and falcons do. Cuts and bite wounds have the potential to cause problems if not treated correctly or if complicated such as penetrating wounds to tendon sheaths but it is not bumblefoot.

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

Yes it would be relative to size. Gyrs frequently pick up bumblefoot if allowed too much aviary space without padded landings. The same applies to Merlins, therefore smaller pens and padded perching are the order of the day. The same theory applies on perches astroturf spreads the contact area across the foot rather than all the pressure being in one spot. Thus can bumblefoot be avoided.

[Sprout]

Well said K.

[Barry]

Andy,

You mentioned the Barbary was likely to lose it's toe, has it been removed or do you think it will be able to keep it?

Barry.

[MickeyDredd]

Andy,

You mentioned the Barbary was likely to lose it's toe, has it been removed or do you think it will be able to keep it?

Barry.

Due to Bumblefoot??

[Dave G]

spout :supz: thanx for clearing that up m8 as so many people think there hawk has bumble foot or will get bumble foot off bad perches or cuts and bites will cause bumble foot , i have had a bite mark off a squirrel my hawks foot went realy hot but it was quickly cleaned with hibby scrub then suda cream was put on it it was fine in a day or 2 ?? but was told to watch out for bumble foot ?? so cheers spout for clearing that up for us ;)

[Sprout]

spout :supz: thanx for clearing that up m8 as so many people think there hawk has bumble foot or will get bumble foot off bad perches or cuts and bites will cause bumble foot , i have had a bite mark off a squirrel my hawks foot went realy hot but it was quickly cleaned with hibby scrub then suda cream was put on it it was fine in a day or 2 ?? but was told to watch out for bumble foot ?? so cheers spout for clearing that up for us ;)
Bad perches WILL cause bumblefoot - they are the main reason. Although not bumblefoot I would ALWAYS treat EVERY bite with anti-biotics and not just rely on cleaning and local creams.

[AndyYounger]

Thanks for the info Sprout.Strange as it may seem i havnt spoke to john today although i was planning on calling him later.

from what you had said it was more likely to be an infection than bumblefoot. it happend when mw bird was on loan to another falconer so i didnt see it staight away. thankfully all is well now.

[Sprout]

Andy,

You mentioned the Barbary was likely to lose it's toe, has it been removed or do you think it will be able to keep it?

Barry.
If it was the toe that was the problem then it is obviously not bumblefoot related - bumblefoot affects the plantar metatarsal pad (ball of foot!) not the toes.

[Yarak1]

Who has come across bumblefoot in the past. understanding and treating it etc.My tiercel Barbary contracted bunblefoot from a small puncture in his right foot. i treated it with a broad spectrum antibiotic and it seemed to go away. about five days after this it started to re-appear. this is when i went to the vet and he was operated on. He is now doing very well.

Have any of you had similar experiences and what was the cause/cure etc.
Regards
Andy

Hi Andy, got this from a vet online , hope it helps mate............
Bumblefoot :
A condition of the foot, usually in the form of 'corns' or ulcerations on the bottom of the foot. This can be caused by (amongst other things) poor hygiene, unsuitable perches or piercing of the bottom of the foot by the talons. The condition can be fatal, as raptors are dependent on their feet for their food. It is an especial problem during very cold weather, as it can lead to further problems if their feet get cold.

Another one for you Andy..........

Bumblefoot, or pododermatitis is a septic condition of the foot leading to abscessation . It usually arises following the introduction of infection into the tissues of the foot. Whilst it is more typically seen in captive birds of prey and poultry as a result of poor husbandry practices, it is also seen in wild birds. A number of factors can predispose to the development of this condition in a range of different wild species. These factors include lameness, penetrating injuries, poor diet and subsequent nutritional deficiencies (e.g. hypovitaminosis A ) and dirty living conditions. Lameness is likely to cause a shifting of weight from the lame to the healthy leg; this in turn may result in ulceration of the healthy foot....

And one more for luck Andy.........

Bumblefoot
This condition is due to infection of the foot and tendons, usually due to bacterial infection. Infection may occur as the primary problem due to traumatic injury to the foot. The inflammation causes swelling and thickening of the foot such that the bird may end up with a knobbly swollen appearance to the whole foot or just to some of the toes.

[Sprout]

Good posts Yarak but luckily we understand a bit more about bumblefoot now, remember avain medicine is the fastest growing area of veterinary medicine. Injuries USED to be thought the cause of bumblefoot, NOW we know it is more related to pressure necrosis and vascular compromise.

[AndyYounger]

thanks for that. you see 3rd page and no bickering yet . classs.

The toe is now fine. to my surprise. it looks like a full recovery.the foot was quite swolen and was causing problems with movement. i have learnt that i will be very carefull when dealing with other people and my birds.
i recently came to understand that if you dont have the time to do it properly then dont do it at all.

i found out the hard way, you can only strech yourself so far. i have read on this forum somewhere "ONE FALCON, ONE SPOUSE, TWO FALCONS, NO SPOUSE". i laughed when i first read it. didnt quite realise its bloody true! in my case anyway.

Roll on next season!

[Yarak1]

Good posts Yarak but luckily we understand a bit more about bumblefoot now, remember avain medicine is the fastest growing area of veterinary medicine. Injuries USED to be thought the cause of bumblefoot, NOW we know it is more related to pressure necrosis and vascular compromise.

Well all I can say is these quotes are all up to date quotes by vets including this countries best Neil forbes..............

Whatever you say infection can and will lead to bumblefoot if left untreated........................And the main cause of infection in the foot is caused by cuts and abrasions.........

[AndyYounger]

just spoke to my vet with regards to my barbary. he tels me that it was bumblefoot and was caused by an infection in a small puncture wound in the underside of the right foot. as the bird was not in my possesion at that time it is hard for me to tell you exactly what happend. as i can only go on what i was told.

Thanks

[Dave G]

thanx for all the posts as this is very helpfull and no ones getting angry good on you guys ?? i like to change my perches once the hawk has worn them down in areas as this keeps the talons and beak in good condition ?? i used branches from trees rarther than dowel as i find this much better for the hawk , ??? if not all info welcome

[MickeyDredd]

Well all I can say is these quotes are all up to date quotes by vets including this countries best Neil forbes..............


The quotes appear to agree exactly with what Sprout has posted - so well done Sprout, you appear to an up-to-date kind of vet ;) :lol:

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

Good posts Yarak but luckily we understand a bit more about bumblefoot now, remember avain medicine is the fastest growing area of veterinary medicine. Injuries USED to be thought the cause of bumblefoot, NOW we know it is more related to pressure necrosis and vascular compromise.
Thats word for word how Harcourt Brown described the condition to me when I was at his surjery with a Haggard Gyr last year. He also tried to out line the difference from bumblefoot to secondary infection caused via trauma. Must admit I am not a vet unlike you Sprout and wouldnt dream of contradicting your proffesional opinion.

[Yarak1]

just spoke to my vet with regards to my barbary. he tels me that it was bumblefoot and was caused by an infection in a small puncture wound in the underside of the right foot. as the bird was not in my possesion at that time it is hard for me to tell you exactly what happend. as i can only go on what i was told.

Thanks

Well theres a thing!!,,,,,,, so infection caused by a puncture wound can lead to bumblefoot in the toes as well as the foot..................

[Sprout]

Believe what you want, you're not going to listen to anyone elses opinions anyway. I agree, foot infections will lead to problems if ignored SIMILAR to bumblefoot but it is STILL NOT BUMBLEFOOT. How many times, bumblefoot is a CHRONIC condition that is progressive, an injury is not. An injury doesn't cause or caused by vascular compromise, bumblefoot is. There is a difference which you just don;t seem to be able to grasp.

[Sprout]

Well theres a thing!!,,,,,,, so infection caused by a puncture wound can lead to bumblefoot in the toes as well as the foot..................
Circles!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If it was in the toe it wasn't bu,blefoot!!!! Please grasp it, its not that hard to understand. Bumblefoot is a mis-used name. I suppose you also think blaine is exactly the same as wing tip oedema too???

[MickeyDredd]

i used branches from trees rarther than dowel as i find this much better for the hawk , ??? if not all info welcome

Dave

I have astroturf on all my perches in the breeding and moulting aviaries, and on my Crown Falconry bows as I find the small knobbles are insufficient for the job and also wear down fairly quickly.

I have never used natural perches as I just dont like them personally.

Rgds
Mike

[Sprout]

Dave

I have astroturf on all my perches in the breeding and moulting aviaries, and on my Crown Falconry bows as I find the small knobbles are insufficient for the job and also wear down fairly quickly.

I have never used natural perches as I just dont like them personally.

Rgds
Mike
Are you going to ask Mike now how long he has been in falconry too Yarak because he has found a similar prob with the rubber bobbles?????

[MickeyDredd]

Circles!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If it was in the toe it wasn't bu,blefoot!!!! Please grasp it, its not that hard to understand. Bumblefoot is a mis-used name. I suppose you also think blaine is exactly the same as wing tip oedema too???

Bumblefoot is a commonly used term by vets to cover all-encompassing foot problems, i'm with Sprout on this one.

Andy, who is your vet?

[Sprout]

Bumblefoot is a commonly used term by vets to cover all-encompassing foot problems, i'm with Sprout on this one.

Andy, who is your vet?
Exactly - it is a misused term that vets not quite in the know use for all foot problems without really knowing what it means.

[MickeyDredd]

Are you going to ask Mike now how long he has been in falconry too Yarak because he has found a similar prob with the rubber bobbles?????

I take it I've missed something :confused:

[AndyYounger]

I used crown falconrys bows and blocks after being at Elite Falconry (Barry).
They are very well made and i havnt found any problems with them.

My avarys have 4x2 perches covered in astroturf. so no issue there.

the vet i used in this case was in falkirk. one of the few avian vets local to me.

i am not blinkered on this subject i just wanted to know a bit mor and hear about other peoples experiences. i am listening to what all of you have to say and taking it in. or trying to

[Sprout]

I take it I've missed something :confused:
Yarak doesn't think the bobbles wear down, at least he's never seen it! Maybe if he uses them often enough he will realise. I personally use astroturf on ALL my perches as it spreads the weight out better on the bottom of the foot, although sand is better I don't use it as it is not practical and more likely to result in crop compactions.

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

In the Summer of 1995 I was flying a display falcon for a very large (At the time) display team. I was flying a Lanner hybrid that used to hit lures very hard and was deffinately a real trier. He managed to cut a toe and the foot started too swell and become infected, this I started to treat. During the time he was healing he favoured the other foot and put all the pressure of his weight on the good foot. The blocks were terrible with very large thick prominant edges before an insert of astroturf nearly 3/4 of an inch inset from the edge. The result being that he started to develop a hard area of skin that developed into bumblefoot. Having talked to Harcourt brown on the subject years after the event. What I had was bumblefoot in one foot and a secondary infection in the other. Anyway he survived and healed.

[Sprout]

Thats Nigel Harcourt-Brown - the world renound expert on raptors feet!!! At least he knows the difference between foot infections and bumblefoot!!!

[MickeyDredd]

Yarak doesn't think the bobbles wear down, at least he's never seen it! Maybe if he uses them often enough he will realise. I personally use astroturf on ALL my perches as it spreads the weight out better on the bottom of the foot, although sand is better I don't use it as it is not practical and more likely to result in crop compactions.

Hmmm!

if I thought the pics would come out I could disprove that theory!! :lol:

Both me and some mates have sent bows back to Crown to have new rubbers put on because of this problem, we now just put the astroturf on them as it spreads the weight better as you say plus cant be arsed with the hassle to return them for re-rubbering!

I dislike sand even morethan natural perches although i've never seen a sand perch :confused: :lol:

[Sandeep]

Astroturf is a boon to falconers and is good for all types of BOPs. My friend in Pakistan ( Turumti ) also uses astroturf and its the safest thing to have on your perch...:supz: :supz:

[AndyYounger]

in the end. my tiercel is recovering well. i am leaving work for a while so wont be online. when i do come back it would be nice so see everyone getting on.

[Sprout]

OK for arguements sake, answer this. IF cuts and wounds were the commonest cause of bumblefoot why would vets recommend placing the bird on astro-turf?? Surely the spikes would penetrate the cuts and push infection in deeper???? IF however it was pressure related then the astroturf would spread the weight and pressure out improving the situation????

[Dave G]

may i ask which astra turf is best as i have some on a log stand which the hawk uses for his feeding station and its very hard asrta turf is this the best sort , and would it be best to cover my perches with the astra turf to prevent bumlefoot thanx dave

[Sprout]

in the end. my tiercel is recovering well. i am leaving work for a while so wont be online. when i do come back it would be nice so see everyone getting on.
Good news, foot infections generally respond well, hope to hear of him flying next season. Like most on here I am still learning and always willing to listen and gleam new information, but, I do at least know what I am talking about on this topic!! Its my job to know

[Barry]

The bobbles on the crown falconry bows do wear down. I've been using them now for about 8 years, since Jim started I think and the older bows do have the dimples worn almost entirely away. I have decided to change to astro-turf topped bows indoors overnight and stick to the crown rubber topped bows outdoors. Birds here are simply never fed on perches indoors so the astroturf will be kept disinfected and clean very easily.
Unflown birds are fed on their bows outdoors, so I have a good perch surface easily cleaned for this purppose. I think this is probably the best overall option in my opinion.

For the record Yarak1 I hate Raptor posts!

Barry.

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

may i ask which astra turf is best as i have some on a log stand which the hawk uses for his feeding station and its very hard asrta turf is this the best sort , and would it be best to cover my perches with the astra turf to prevent bumlefoot thanx dave
You use the word hawk in your post above. do you actually mean hawk or is the bird another species. I ask this only because wing loading is relivant to how much you need to panick about astro turfing everthing in sight.

[MickeyDredd]

may i ask which astra turf is best as i have some on a log stand which the hawk uses for his feeding station and its very hard asrta turf is this the best sort , and would it be best to cover my perches with the astra turf to prevent bumlefoot thanx dave

Dave

I use mats which you can buy at hardware stores and then cut them to suit. i've found that the type with the stiffer bristle do the best job as they allow the weight of the hawk to be spread very well and allow plenty of air to circulate beneath the feet.

as Sprout mentions it is often advised to use astroturf on perches for a bird which is bowed - but as you can see not everyone does, its simply a matter of choice at the end of the day and i choose to use it.

Mike

[Sprout]

The bobbles on the crown falconry bows do wear down. I've been using them now for about 8 years, since Jim started I think and the older bows do have the dimples worn almost entirely away. I have decided to change to astro-turf topped bows indoors overnight and stick to the crown rubber topped bows outdoors. Birds here are simply never fed on perches indoors so the astroturf will be kept disinfected and clean very easily.
Unflown birds are fed on their bows outdoors, so I have a good perch surface easily cleaned for this purppose. I think this is probably the best overall option in my opinion.

For the record Yarak1 I hate Raptor posts!

Barry.
Thanks Barry, someone else with the same observation as me. Even with the reduced dimples the bows will be fine for hawks as stated earlier they do not suffer the same vascular compromise to the foot so bumblefoot is not recognised (although in eagles it is) althougth I personally prefer astro-turf on all my perches. On a separate note, rubber and astro-turf hold more bacteria than natural wood!!! so regular disinfecting is required. Perching is far more an important issue with the longwings.

[MickeyDredd]

On a separate note, rubber and astro-turf hold more bacteria than natural wood!!! so regular disinfecting is required.

At the same time though, wet natural perches carry their own different risks so should be changes if signs of damp/mould are apparent.

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

Jsut been out and tried to get pictures of my bows with worn dimples. Sadly the camera is on the blink.

[Sprout]

At the same time though, wet natural perches carry their own different risks so should be changes if signs of damp/mould are apparent.
Exactly, essentially a lot of problems are husbandry related. It is upto the falconer to realise the limitations of their equipment and be pro-active in recognising the first signs of problems and doing something about it.

[AndyYounger]

keeping on top of your equipment is of upmost importance. you have to keep it clean at all times. you never know what kind of diseas/infections might turn up if not washed daily!


you know what i mean. Your Bowperch of course:lol:

[Yarak1]

Thats word for word how Harcourt Brown described the condition to me when I was at his surjery with a Haggard Gyr last year. He also tried to out line the difference from bumblefoot to secondary infection caused via trauma. Must admit I am not a vet unlike you Sprout and wouldnt dream of contradicting your proffesional opinion.

Nor would I K..........but after reading up to date reports on bumblefoot from other vets it is all very contradictory between vets ...................

[Sprout]

Thats where the problem lies, avain medicine is advancing so fast that in a lot of cases by the time something is in print it is out of date ;) .

[Barry]

Sprout, I have a question for you then.

All my falcons are currently on crown blocks inside and out. The blocks are the textured rubber type. Every outdoor block has the top removed and is Virkon S disinfected every night ready for clean use the next day. The sand under my falcons indoor perches is scooped out every 2nd day and disposed of. The indoor block tops are removed and Virkon S disinfected evey 2nd or sooner if a bird cast on it and stomps all over the casting.

I have never evr had bumblefoot in a falcon under this regime. I did have bumblefoot in a Ray Turner tiercel about 12 years ago. It was on an astroturf top that was very clean, but as described by K had a very wide lip around the edge of the perch surface which seemed to cause the start of the problem it healed and the bird is fine even now and still breeding (thanks Dick Best).

All the medium/small eagles interchange between rubber topped bows indoors overnight and either rubber bows or astroturf blocks outside during the day.

The big eagles have astroturf bows indoors and the same or astroturf blocks outdoors.

The hawks, buzzards and vultures are on crown rubber topped bows day and night.

I have only ever had an infection in one owl from a mouse bite, and one infection in a coopers hawk toe the origin of which I don't know. Nothing in any other hawk, eagle or vulture.

Owls have rubber bows outdoors and either rubber bows or astroturf logs inside.

Is there anything I can improve in your opinion to eliminate the small number of cases I have had? People talk of Prep' H massaging birds feed, once a week applications of Dermisol, once a month bathing on a bathing block soaked in F10, and of course alternative perching.

Cheers.
Barry.

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

After using Harcourt brown for the last fourteen years, I think I can safely say he knows what hes talking about. Also If you look into it Harcourt Brown and Niel Forbes do research together.

[Barry]

Didn't Harcourt Brown part train Neil?

Barry.

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

Dont know but he is a batchelor of the veterinary council.

[Sprout]

Sounds fine Barry, I personally prefer astro-turf on my blocks but if rubber works for you then continue. PrepH is good on healthy skin, keeps it soft and supply but the biggest part is the massaging it in - helps with the circulation, I prefer dermisol or F10 barrier cream.

[Yarak1]

The bobbles on the crown falconry bows do wear down. I've been using them now for about 8 years, since Jim started I think and the older bows do have the dimples worn almost entirely away. I have decided to change to astro-turf topped bows indoors overnight and stick to the crown rubber topped bows outdoors. Birds here are simply never fed on perches indoors so the astroturf will be kept disinfected and clean very easily.
Unflown birds are fed on their bows outdoors, so I have a good perch surface easily cleaned for this purppose. I think this is probably the best overall option in my opinion.



Barry.For the record Yarak1 I hate Raptor posts!

Raptor posts barry??....so do I mate..............that's why I changed all my birds on to shelf perches...............My birds also never eat on the shelf perches , always outside on the bows ( nobbly tops).........
But why are you bringing this up on here about raptor posts???

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

Possibly because you often seam to post with a hidden agend Yarak1.

[Barry]

Because you noted earlier on another thread that you did not like them and here we are discussing bubmblefoot and foot problems and the relationship to perching. I am agreeing that Raptor posts are overall in my opinion ****!

Barry.

[AndyYounger]

Barry And John. i now agree the raptor posts i have used i have been dissapointed with. i now using them in my avarys. with no birds being tethered to them.

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

Used one once and decided against them.

[Yarak1]

Believe what you want, you're not going to listen to anyone elses opinions anyway. I agree, foot infections will lead to problems if ignored SIMILAR to bumblefoot but it is STILL NOT BUMBLEFOOT. How many times, bumblefoot is a CHRONIC condition that is progressive, an injury is not. An injury doesn't cause or caused by vascular compromise, bumblefoot is. There is a difference which you just don;t seem to be able to grasp.

You mis-understand my thoughts on bumblefoot sprout .I am quoting on advice given to me from vets like neil and from reading other quotes from avian vets like the ones I posted to andy younger................All of them say that Bumblefoot can arise from a cut on the foot of a bird which becomes infected , left untreated it can cause bumblefoot...............
So are you telling me not to believe what they have written or told me to my face? If they say this or that causes bumblefoot who am I to doubt them??

I am not saying that your information is incorrect!!!.I am telling you what has been written and advice given as to causes of bumblefoot........... Now if you want to slate me for it be my guest!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Yarak1]

Because you noted earlier on another thread that you did not like them and here we are discussing bubmblefoot and foot problems and the relationship to perching. I am agreeing that Raptor posts are overall in my opinion ****!

Barry.

Well yes barry I agree they are **** mate.............as bad as the screen................
Since using the shelf perch in the indoor quarters I have found them to be brilliant, easy to clean, no feather damage and no foot problems.............

[Yarak1]

Possibly because you often seam to post with a hidden agend Yarak1.

Sorry K? what do mean........hidden agenda???

[Sprout]

You have a fixed idea in your head and won;t accept any other ideas, or is it just because it is coming from me?? I'm fed up of trying to tell you avain medicine has moved on, what we used to think caused bumblefoot has now been proved to not be the case. Phone up ANY avian vet tomorrow and ask whether bumblefoot is a chronic condition caused by poor husbandry or an acute problem related to bites and wounds? I'd be interested to hear their replies. I have a meeting with Neil Forbes on Friday, so I'll get his more recent opinion then for you.

[Sprout]

Well yes barry I agree they are **** mate.............as bad as the screen................
Since using the shelf perch in the indoor quarters..................and no foot problems.............
So how do they magically stop birds footing themselves?? Or are you admitting perching is the cause for foot problems after all??

[Dave G]

spout you know what your on about so you can rest at nite ;) leave the other deep in thought and if they think other wise let them be as you give good advise if not taken by others so be it ;)

[Sprout]

spout you know what your on about so you can rest at nite ;) leave the other deep in thought and if they think other wise let them be as you give good advise if not taken by others so be it ;)
Cheers mate, nice to be appreciated

[BrianM]

ive never encountered bumble foot ,, but ive heard that prep h is the thing to use? is this right

[Yarak1]

You have a fixed idea in your head and won;t accept any other ideas, or is it just because it is coming from me?? I'm fed up of trying to tell you avain medicine has moved on, what we used to think caused bumblefoot has now been proved to not be the case. Phone up ANY avian vet tomorrow and ask whether bumblefoot is a chronic condition caused by poor husbandry or an acute problem related to bites and wounds? I'd be interested to hear their replies. I have a meeting with Neil Forbes on Friday, so I'll get his more recent opinion then for you.

If you read my last post it clearly says I am not saying that you are incorrect..................I am just saying what I have been told by other vets..........is that not clear enough for you?

As for "or is it just because it is coming from me??" no it's not mate................It could be anybody............

[Sprout]

But you're still unwilling to accept what I say?? Or are you going to change your mind now?

[Yarak1]

But you're still unwilling to accept what I say?? Or are you going to change your mind now?

I am accepting what you say....but I also have a right to accept what other vets say......................

If I imply that you are correct is that not accepting ?

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

Before this gets childish, lets just agree that you two disagree.

[Sprout]

Agreed K - but I'm right!!!:goodman: :supz:

[Yarak1]

Agreed K - but I'm right!!!:goodman: :supz:

Well there you go then..sorted.......

[Dave G]

pmsl we are all right ??? but gone in the head ;)

[AndyYounger]

I dont think yarak said that raptor posts were the cause of foot broblems.
from what i have read i dont see that yarak disagrees with all you have said but then again dosnt fully agree either.
i am starting to get a bit confused. if vets cant agree how are we supposed to know what to believe.
i have to put faith in the vet i am using. as do all of us. are you saying some are wrong and some are right.
they will all have there individuality and opinions but surely a diognosis should be the same from all of you.

as much as i would like to use neil forbes or Dick Best the travelling time is out of the question.
this thread isnt going anywhere now. i have learnt a good bit and am greatfull for all of the input.

i like to think my vet is up to speed on whats right and wrong. but then i guess its like falconry. different people get results differentl. maybe its the same in your world?

[Falcon911]

Foot infections caught early before pus is produced will respond nicely to anti-biotics, but it isn't bumblefoot.

The foot was swollen etc and a scab had formed in the middle. Stage 1 I beleive.

[Kitana]

Just my 2 cents...

Sprout is 150% right, the «real» bumblefoot is a vascular problem caused by a repeated pressure on the sole of the foot which cause necrosis of the blood vessels, death of the skin and secundary infections. Other foot infections caused by wounds and let without treatment can look exactly similar to bumblefoot and have a similar treatment/consequence but they do not have the same etiology, the same causative agents.

Astroturf can prevent the problems because the small spikes always bend at a different angle even if the bird places its feet exactly at the same place over and over again, so the distribution of pressure is different each time. A bird can easily get bumblefoot on a natural perch if it always stays at the same spot, which is fairly common. In the wild natural perches work because the birds almost never perch at the same place twice, pressure is always on a new spot on their foot...

Another cause for bumblefoot is perches placed too close from each other in the aviary. If the bird doesn't have the space/time to slow down properly before landing on a perch, the repeated shock caused by the landing can cause pressure damage and bumblefoot.