Swivels and leashes

[Tim Laycock]

In this instance what does a loop leash offer that a traditional leash does not :rolleyes:

<btw> I did not start this thread it was split from another, It was a probing question, I am not a fool!

[Yarak1]

In this instance what does a loop leash offer that a traditional leash does not :rolleyes:

The loop leash sits better on the swivel and unlike a traditional button leash can't jam the top half of the swivel..........

Some people not all use to thick a leash with a large button on the end which jams against the top half of the swivel so causing the jesses to twist and tangle the birds feet up............

[GregMik]

In this instance what does a loop leash offer that a traditional leash does not :rolleyes:

I have had Button leashes get caught up in the jesses and then the bird gets tangled. I have never had a bad experience because I check my birds often, but they have been tangled. I prefer a loop leash.

Greg

P.S. I still have button leashes that I use. For weathering.

[Yarak1]

I have had Button leashes get caught up in the jesses and then the bird gets tangled. I have never had a bad experience because I check my birds often, but they have been tangled. I prefer a loop leash.

Greg

P.S. I still have button leashes that I use. For weathering.

Do you make your own loop leashes Greg?......... I make mine and make them for other falconers...........I prefer them to the button leash.........

[Tim Laycock]

I have had Button leashes get caught up in the jesses and then the bird gets tangled. I have never had a bad experience because I check my birds often, but they have been tangled. I prefer a loop leash.

Greg

P.S. I still have button leashes that I use. For weathering.

Simple solution :yawinkle:

[GoodFooter]

it stops 'hang ups' where on a traditional system the button of the leash gets caught inbetween the jesses stoping the swivel from working... on the loop leash it cant happen aswell as offering 2 points to 'swivel' one on the ring end and one on the swivel end... the point was that 'tradition has its place in history but when a better alternative is offered why dont people adopt it? The loop leash is better and noone has yet to give a valid reason why not..... and in my opinion a well constructed metal bow surpasses 'traditional wooden one' for the many reasons listed in this thread. ( choise of padding, cleaning ability, controlled enviroment, not prone to sudden failure etc) Would love to know why more people dont use loops though that would be a different thread?

[GregMik]

Do you make your own loop leashes Greg?......... I make mine and make them for other falconers...........I prefer them to the button leash.........

Yes Tasha and I make our own. If fact Gaz has requested some but I have been procrastinating:roll: Sorry Gaz.

Greg

[Yarak1]

I have had Button leashes get caught up in the jesses and then the bird gets tangled. I have never had a bad experience because I check my birds often, but they have been tangled. I prefer a loop leash.

Greg

P.S. I still have button leashes that I use. For weathering.

Here you go Greg these are mine that I make..........

[Tim Laycock]

it stops 'hang ups' where on a traditional system the button of the leash gets caught inbetween the jesses stoping the swivel from working... on the loop leash it cant happen aswell as offering 2 points to 'swivel' one on the ring end and one on the swivel end... the point was that 'tradition has its place in history but when a better alternative is offered why dont people adopt it? The loop leash is better and noone has yet to give a valid reason why not..... and in my opinion a well constructed metal bow surpasses 'traditional wooden one' for the many reasons listed in this thread. ( choise of padding, cleaning ability, controlled enviroment, not prone to sudden failure etc) Would love to know why more people dont use loops though that would be a different thread?

See post above this

[GoodFooter]

jesus happened again :oops: while typing my reply the answer was given!!!!! getting to slow in my old age.

[Yarak1]

Yes Tasha and I make our own. If fact Gaz has requested some but I have been procrastinating:roll: Sorry Gaz.

Greg

And one more ............

[GregMik]

Simple solution :yawinkle:

Yes....Maybe....But now you are putting even more bulk at the swivel. A loop leash doesn't have that.

Greg

P.S. That swivel is technicly not legal for use in the US.

P.P.S. I didn't right the regs.

[Jack Merlin]

Simple solution :yawinkle:

...which leads us on to swivel design!<g>

I've never liked those swivels. I suspect it is an attempt to copy the old big game fishing swivel (can't remember the name) that Jack Mavro recommended and, because he was considered a sort of god, everyone else used.

I have one here (which arrived on a bird) that I have continued to use and it has snagged several times as Greg has pointed out. I like the figure of 8 with a spacer. When is someone going to start making them again?

[Tim Laycock]

I have not used it since I was 15 :yawinkle:
It was to hand and suited the purpose of ilustrating my point :lol:

[GregMik]

Moved to it's own thread

[Tim Laycock]

I will now use nothing other that this setup :supz:

[GoodFooter]

See post above this
Good Shout but you still dont get the swivel effect at the ring end... but have to admit it would be an impovement!!! I know you could weld a sampo swivel ti the ring but a bit messy? and where the bows are not converted for a true loop with button I guess a long loop with falconers knot is still an improvemant.....but I think the point is still there that ..... traditional leashes are far from perfect and there is a better solution but not enough people use them ( or a safer version) look in almost every book, or faconry centre which are both supposed to be ambassadors for falconry.

[Tim Laycock]

Moved to it's own thread

I was about to split it but not from where you have http://www.falconryforum.co.uk/images/smilies/icon_eyes.gif

[GregMik]

I will now use nothing other that this setup :supz:

Do you weather with this? I am sure it works well. I just feel more secure with something that can't slip. It looks like there is the possability of those knots coming undone.

Greg

[GoodFooter]

I will now use nothing other that this setup :supz:
Talk me through that system ( doesent look like a bullet system) and appears not to have alymeris???? so does the whole thing come off when flying??? and appears to have no potential for sore ankles....nor hang up I'm liking it. But still dont under stand it.

[Tim Laycock]

The knots are self constricting!
I can swing by one of then and I weigh 15 1/2 stone :yawinkle:

No doubt it would be illegal in the US :yawinkle: :lol:

[Tim Laycock]

Talk me through that system ( doesent look like a bullet system) and appears not to have alymeris???? so does the whole thing come off when flying??? and appears to have no potential for sore ankles....nor hang up I'm liking it. But still dont under stand it.

Slitless traditional jesses, fastened to the green loops with a self constricting knot.

undo the knots and away you go :supz:

[GoodFooter]

so does the whole lot come off when flying? or do the ' self constricting knots' not actually go though a slit in the jess?????

[GoodFooter]

you answered it too slow again:oops:

[Tim Laycock]

:lol: :yawinkle:

[GregMik]

The knots are self constricting!
I can swing by one of then and I weigh 15 1/2 stone :yawinkle:

No doubt it would be illegal in the US :yawinkle: :lol:

No it would be legal....For nonflying situations. So we would have to take the Alymeries off to put the traditional jesses on. But if we used flying jesses in the Alymeries. It would work.

I like the idea. The leash is permanent so no tangles there. I may give it a shot.

[GaryPCO]

so does the whole lot come off when flying? or do the ' self constricting knots' not actually go though a slit in the jess?????
there is no slit in the jess its just a simple reef not tightens well and undoes with simplicity!!!

[GoodFooter]

Do you weather her outside with those on???? or are they inside mews/weathering only??? These are totally new to me but if they are safe they seam great for the bird!!!

[Tim Laycock]

My Goshawk is free lofted but I have no qualms over weathering her with this system and have done so many times with many birds

[Yarak1]

Simple solution :yawinkle:

Yes good idea.....but would it not be just as well to use a loop if someone is going to do that?.just a thought.

[Yarak1]

Good Shout but you still dont get the swivel effect at the ring end... but have to admit it would be an impovement!!! I know you could weld a sampo swivel ti the ring but a bit messy? and where the bows are not converted for a true loop with button I guess a long loop with falconers knot is still an improvemant.....but I think the point is still there that ..... traditional leashes are far from perfect and there is a better solution but not enough people use them ( or a safer version) look in almost every book, or faconry centre which are both supposed to be ambassadors for falconry.

Just out of curiosity..why do you think " a true loop with button" is safer than a loop leash with falconers knots and a half hitch? If a bird is in trouble I can release it more quickly with the falconers knot than I could with the true loop....just a thought.

[Tim Laycock]

Yes good idea.....but would it not be just as well to use a loop if someone is going to do that?.just a thought.

No because then I would have to use aylmeris and have to mess around with flying/mews jesses.

I wont use these because they are a danger to my hawk, In a both hunting and "gone ferral" situations:!:

[Yarak1]

No because then I would have to use aylmeris and have to mess around with flying/mews jesses.

I wont use these because they are a danger to my hawk, In a both hunting and "gone ferral" situations:!:

Sorry Blackbird, I think we have crossed lines here..I was referring to the pic of how you attached the button leash to the swivel................

[Palmer]

Just a random quik question but.....what are the best shaped swivel? e.g. rounded top,flat top

[GoodFooter]

Just out of curiosity..why do you think " a true loop with button" is safer than a loop leash with falconers knots and a half hitch? If a bird is in trouble I can release it more quickly with the falconers knot than I could with the true loop....just a thought.
Valid point but loops can be undone quite quickly if you put a tag on the end ( otherwise it is a pain)but not a fast as a falconers knot.... the point is that by using loops ( with the button though a smaller hole welded to the ring) is that in four seasons not one single hang up!!! so you wouldnt need to rush super quick is it were!!! some birds are more prone to hang ups than others and the loop with button does give another rotating point which you dont get with a falconers knot ( unless you weld a sampo swivel to the ring and tie onto that). I am really happy with the loop leash with button set up but have to say I like Blackbirds set up and would be keen to try it to see how slip free it is!!!!!! as am quite aware aylmeris have their faults.

[GregMik]

...which leads us on to swivel design!<g>

I've never liked those swivels. I suspect it is an attempt to copy the old big game fishing swivel (can't remember the name) that Jack Mavro recommended and, because he was considered a sort of god, everyone else used.

I have one here (which arrived on a bird) that I have continued to use and it has snagged several times as Greg has pointed out. I like the figure of 8 with a spacer. When is someone going to start making them again?

Derry,
You mean like these?

http://www.pineofalconry.com/product_listing.php?id=9

Greg

[HoumaFalconer]

I Only Trust The Ones That I Make. I Prefer The Loop End.
Dennis

[Gaz]

[If fact Gaz has requested some but I have been procrastinatinghttp://www.falconryforum.co.uk/images/smilies/icon_rolleyes.gif Sorry Gaz.]QUOTE:
:supz: They are tops ...ill pick mine up in Nebraska..got some dvds for Greg:finga: :mrgreen:

[Mary Quite Contrary]

Blackbird would you do a couple of photos in a step by step approach on on the set up you show in the picture please.
I am particular interested in way the jess are tied to the leash.;)

[Tim Laycock]

Here you go :yawinkle:

[GoodFooter]

perfect BB !:D

[Nemesis]

The knots are self constricting!
I can swing by one of then and I weigh 15 1/2 stone :yawinkle:

No doubt it would be illegal in the US :yawinkle: :lol:

hi blackbird do they stil hold well when wet as I like the set up and am thinking of using it this coming season thanks /dave:supz:

[Sean]

BB where did you get that leash material, i use to have a leash like that which was great, now the best stuff i can find holds its shape alot :(.

[Tim Laycock]

hi blackbird do they stil hold well when wet as I like the set up and am thinking of using it this coming season thanks /dave:supz:

Holds as well if not better when wet.

[Tim Laycock]

BB where did you get that leash material, i use to have a leash like that which was great, now the best stuff i can find holds its shape alot :(.

B&Q m8 :yawinkle:

You can buy both the green and the green and yellow stuff by the yard.

[Jack Merlin]

Derry,
You mean like these?

http://www.pineofalconry.com/product_listing.php?id=9

Greg

Nope. See below.

To my mind, Doug's swivels are too light. Also, only one ring rotates. The illustrated swivel has two s/steel rings both rotating on a stainless steel pin and the central spacer also rotates independently so snagging is virtually impossible.

If the swivel is too light, there is a tendency for it to ride up between the jesses as I think you've mentioned. I used to make these commercially but the man who made the components has now retired -- and I can't be bothered! (Too old). Maybe BB should expand his production line?<g>

[Pogger]

Where are you getting your sampo swivels form BB? I've just had a look in the tool box and found a couple but I think I bought them from Northwoods. Anyone over here doing them? I've got a hybrid falcon with very short legs that your system looks perfect for so thought I would give it a try.

[Gary.B]

Where are you getting your sampo swivels form BB? I've just had a look in the tool box and found a couple but I think I bought them from Northwoods. Anyone over here doing them? I've got a hybrid falcon with very short legs that your system looks perfect for so thought I would give it a try.

Try Mikey100 he sells similar,
http://www.falconryforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=8918

[Sean]

thanks BB

[Falconry Equipment International]

Derry,
You mean like these?

http://www.pineofalconry.com/product_listing.php?id=9

Greg
Greg I sell similar but in Stainless steel .. see this thread for offer to iff members
http://www.falconryforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=13160

[Jester]

Try Mikey100 he sells similar,
http://www.falconryforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=8918

I got some of these to test a while ago and they held static 500kg without breaking :supz:


best shock load figure i got was round about 100kg so i reckon they are quite strong enough

[Mary Quite Contrary]

Here you go :yawinkle:


I like that Bert will give it a try;)

Thankyou for taking the time

[Wilfred]

I got some of these to test a while ago and they held static 500kg without breaking :supz:


best shock load figure i got was round about 100kg so i reckon they are quite strong enough


you can find them on Ebay now. Offered there quite a lot. I myself also got a set of 5 from there it is excellent product not the shape i use most but they are just good sampoo shape swivels

[Yarak1]

it stops 'hang ups' where on a traditional system the button of the leash gets caught inbetween the jesses stoping the swivel from working... on the loop leash it cant happen aswell as offering 2 points to 'swivel' one on the ring end and one on the swivel end... the point was that 'tradition has its place in history but when a better alternative is offered why dont people adopt it? The loop leash is better and noone has yet to give a valid reason why not..... and in my opinion a well constructed metal bow surpasses 'traditional wooden one' for the many reasons listed in this thread. ( choise of padding, cleaning ability, controlled enviroment, not prone to sudden failure etc) Would love to know why more people dont use loops though that would be a different thread?

Here you go...........loop that I make and have used for years............John

[GriffMJ]

I use Doug Pineos swivels and I think they are excellent...... medium size ...... I find that they self clean and on a cold winters day they are easy to get the Jesse loops onto. I have used the normal horse shoe & shoulders swivel.... but found that they tangled more easily and were a bit fiddly with cold fingers :)

[FlameHairedFalconer]

I bought these swivels from Dude's (Dan) friend. They are an excellent design. I would highly recommend them, and they are extremely reasonably priced as well. He also does bells which are in the pic!!

FHF

[Cyclone]

they sold them at the falconry fair last year i was gonna get some but never got round to it,i will have another look in a weeks time!
cyclone

[FlameHairedFalconer]

Or you can buy them from Dude if you dont get to the fair. I had some of these swivels about 10 years ago and have been searching for them ever since. I wont be using anything else now!

FHF

[Pitbull]

I bought these swivels from Dude's (Dan) friend. They are an excellent design. I would highly recommend them, and they are extremely reasonably priced as well. He also does bells which are in the pic!!

FHF

Are they Stainless steel

[FlameHairedFalconer]

Are they Stainless steel

Yes

FHF

[Harris]

Here you go...........loop that I make and have used for years............John


Hi Mate, is that the Paracord type of material, if so how do you fix the loop? is it sewn? also what do you use for the "ball"

cheers

simon

[Parabuteo.de]

Or you can buy them from Dude if you dont get to the fair. I had some of these swivels about 10 years ago and have been searching for them ever since. I wont be using anything else now!

FHF

The Design of the swivels is typical German, You can get them here welded or soldered. I prefer the welded V2A Swivels. The will cost here around 10-15 Euros depending on the manufacturer. Sometimes they are really cheap at ebay.

Claas

[GregMik]

Yes....Maybe....But now you are putting even more bulk at the swivel. A loop leash doesn't have that.

Greg

P.S. That swivel is technicly not legal for use in the US.

P.P.S. I didn't right the regs.

Just wanted to piont out that I was wrong. I just reread our Federal regs. It states we can use a swivel of acceptable falconry design.

My state of Minnesota regs state that is must be of a sampo type swivel.:roll:
Or rather we are required to have one of Sampo design. It doesn't say we have to use it.:rolleyes:

Greg

[Tim Laycock]

The devils in the detail :lol:

[Merger]

I use loop leashes from falcon fayre black spun nylon I think, I also use a few button leashes depending on the bird, loops do not allow button to ride up ring and sit between jesses causing terriable tangles, but this does occasionaly happen with loops! has any one here tried these very expensive titainium swivels wich are almost weightless, this may stop swivel jumping thro jesses when hawks bate, have not tried them myself, but have also over the years tried jess extenders, in extreme cases.

[GriffMJ]

has any one here tried these very expensive titainium swivels wich are almost weightless, this may stop swivel jumping thro jesses when hawks bate, have not tried them myself, but have also over the years tried jess extenders, in extreme cases.

Hi Merger

I use the Titanium swivel as you can see in the pic below.... I think they are perfect... they self clean and they are easy in cold weather... they are not that expensive? Doug Pineo will be at the fair this year (as ever) so get yourself a couple... they are well worth it :) I use the loop leash as well (and sell them)

http://www.m-jhoods.co.uk/images/Slijper/SlijFit3.JPG

[Merger]

Thanks mate, I will try a couple this year, when I last looked a couple of years ago, they were £18 each, and I had 21 teatherd birds!!! at the time, not so many now, cheers.

[GoodFooter]

This weekend I set up the system show on page 2 and illustrated on page 5 by blackbird....... being a sceptical and all that thought I best give it a test as it looks like it would slip...... IT DOESNT try as I might couldnt get it to slip!!! so thought I'd give it a soak ....still didnt slip! Greased the jesses and swung from a tree and still it didnt slip!!!!
I'm impressed, very impressed and seems perfect for birds kept free in a chamber/ mews/ avairy ( might even give up my button loop leash crusade:cry: )

[Tim Laycock]

My head is more than just a hatstand :yawinkle:

[GriffMJ]

My head is more than just a hatstand :yawinkle:

Does it work on a smaller scale Tim?

[Tim Laycock]

For spars I use this Griff

[Tim Laycock]

(Excuse the red/pink leather :oops: )

[Onyx25]

Can see the advantages of this system for flying seems very neat but can't say id trust a bird on a bow perch with anything it can untie itself. Normal jesses,swivel and button loop leash are impossible to free but the chance is there with the other, tried and tested for me.

[Tim Laycock]

Each to his own, I have been using these systems since I was 14 without a single mishap.

I wish I could say the same for "Tried and tested" methods!

[Onyx25]

Each to his own, I have been using these systems since I was 14 without a single mishap.

I wish I could say the same for "Tried and tested" methods!
Had no trouble myself so won't change it works for me.

[Tim Laycock]

Thats fair enough bud, each to his own as I said :yawinkle:

[Jack Merlin]

(Excuse the red/pink leather :oops: )

In effect, you have a reef knot. You could modify this slightly to have a sheet bend. Both knots are used by sailors who need to use a knot which is secure but easy to undo when wet or with cold hands.

Knots are useful and interesting things and ought to be taught in school, possibly in physics classes.

Again, BB, not a system I'd use with farmer's fingers.... I'm not sure my dog would hold the point that long!<g>