Eagle attack

[Merger]

Does anyone know any news about the attack of a three year old last month, at a falconry display in scotland, by an eagle as posted in the daily record.co.uk, this is not good news, we will be one step closer to inforced legstration!!! never mind the phycological damage to the child.

[BrianM]

never seen it ??????????

[Hok Boi]

me neither,
does anybody know who was flying it?

[TheZuffler]

Does anyone know any news about the attack of a three year old last month, at a falconry display in scotland, by an eagle as posted in the daily record.co.uk, this is not good news, we will be one step closer to inforced legstration!!! never mind the phycological damage to the child.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/news/tm_objectid=16856866%26method=full%26siteid=66633-name_page.html

Here's the story, all very vague!!

[Stephen]

if its up stirling way it could have been at blair drummond?

[AngelJakki]

if its up stirling way it could have been at blair drummond?
Was there the other day and they got no eagles at the mo. They only got 17 birds and just rebuilding the place all new mews looking alot better than it was.

[Tim Laycock]

Who was the bright spark doing the display :rolleyes:

[Stephen]

Was there the other day and they got no eagles at the mo. They only got 17 birds and just rebuilding the place all new mews looking alot better than it was.
not been there for awhile try and get up over the summer

[AngelJakki]

not been there for awhile try and get up over the summer
I haven't got anything to do with the place. we were there with the kids and noticed how shiny it all looked. His buzzard was soaring in the sky well above crow line dot in the sky and made a beautiful drop out of the sky even he was impressed with it.

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

Theres other falconers in that area.

[Tim Laycock]

Yes there is, some real "experts" pmsl!

[Rhondda Boy]

Does anyone know any news about the attack of a three year old last month, at a falconry display in scotland, by an eagle as posted in the daily record.co.uk, this is not good news, we will be one step closer to inforced legstration!!! never mind the phycological damage to the child.


STORY THAT WE HEARD WAS THAT THE CHILD WAS ALLOWED TO HOLD THE EAGLE, BUT THE PARENTS DID NOT TELL THE FALCONER THAT THE CHILD WAS AUTISTIC, AND DURING THE HOLD THE CHILD START TO SHAKE AND JERK ABOUT, WHICH IN TURN FRIGHTENED THE EAGLE, THE EAGLE SEEMINGLY GOT VERY FOOTY AND GRABED THE CHILD ON OR ABOUT THE ARMS/SHOULDER AREA. IT TOOK 3 OR 4 MEN TO PULL IT OFF. IT HAPPENED AT FALKIRK INDOOR MARKET.

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

A great venue to be handing eagles around. Muppets!!!!!

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

STORY THAT WE HEARD WAS THAT THE CHILD WAS ALLOWED TO HOLD THE EAGLE, BUT THE PARENTS DID NOT TELL THE FALCONER THAT THE CHILD WAS AUTISTIC, AND DURING THE HOLD THE CHILD START TO SHAKE AND JERK ABOUT, WHICH IN TURN FRIGHTENED THE EAGLE, THE EAGLE SEEMINGLY GOT VERY FOOTY AND GRABED THE CHILD ON OR ABOUT THE ARMS/SHOULDER AREA. IT TOOK 3 OR 4 MEN TO PULL IT OFF. IT HAPPENED AT FALKIRK INDOOR MARKET.
Do we know who it was though?

[Wingless]

It was Saltire Falconrys bird which grabbed the kid, they do the rounds of indoor markets etc and people pay a few quid to have a polaroid with an owl, hawk eagle whatever. They don't fly any of their birds, they are purely travelled around and used for photographic purposes... a gentleman called Gary Leech (edit:just read the article properly it says Archie McCrone owns the co. Gary May have moved on?) owns the company.

For instance you can find them in Kinross market every sunday doing the same thing. There have been alot of issues with this firm in the past, of course what they are doing is not illegal, so they can and will continue. It will be this sort of thing which will have eagles added to DWA licensing regs or similar im sure.

[Wingless]

link to better article http://www.falkirktoday.co.uk/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=927&ArticleID=1397712

[AngelJakki]

link to better article http://www.falkirktoday.co.uk/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=927&ArticleID=1397712
So this has nothing to do with falconry more someone exploiting BOP's

[Kevin Massey]

So this has nothing to do with falconry more someone exploiting BOP's

i do agree

[Liam Hay]

there are loads out there doing this at markets shopping centres etc

this should be stamped on by the hawkboard

[Kevin Massey]

there are loads out there doing this at markets shopping centres etc

this should be stamped on by the hawkboard

:supz: :supz: ... i was speeking about this same thing just this w/e

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

we can only hope the eagle has the common sense to do over its owner.

[Tim Laycock]

Its got pretty grim when these whores feel the need to ply their trade in shopping centres :roll:

[Wingless]

What annoys me above all else is that they are happy to admit that none of the birds are flown. I've seen them tell this to members of the public who haven't been in the slightest bit bothered as long as they go home with a polaroid. They also have donation buckets placed around their pitch, to help with the upkeep of the birds apparently... they approach customers such as large retail outlets and business parks saying that they will not charge a fee and are quite happy to be advertised as an attraction in any literature, as long as they can sell the photos and collect money. Ive met some kids who who were collecting photos with birds a bit like a football sticker album. Really sad. They have everything from various sp of owl to goldies and gold/steppes, falcons, hawks, the lot. These aren't rescued, injured or impaired in any way. Anyone half sensible in Scotland will probably heard of this lot and the damage they are doing to falconry/bird of prey keeping.

[Fawkes]

seems a bit odd to have a hand reared eagle in the first place? Are you not asking for aggression? But by the sounds of it the kid was in the wrong place..

Then again I have seen our male goldie looking at a 3 yr old kid same as he looks at the jack russels - they;re just the right size.

[Zam]

we can only hope the eagle has the common sense to do over its owner.



:supz: :supz: :supz:

[Zam]

there are loads out there doing this at markets shopping centres etc

this should be stamped on by the hawkboard


God help us!! This has as much to do with falconry as Bush has with Kyoto!

[Yarak1]

It was Saltire Falconrys bird which grabbed the kid, they do the rounds of indoor markets etc and people pay a few quid to have a polaroid with an owl, hawk eagle whatever. They don't fly any of their birds, they are purely travelled around and used for photographic purposes... a gentleman called Gary Leech (edit:just read the article properly it says Archie McCrone owns the co. Gary May have moved on?) owns the company.

For instance you can find them in Kinross market every sunday doing the same thing. There have been alot of issues with this firm in the past, of course what they are doing is not illegal, so they can and will continue. It will be this sort of thing which will have eagles added to DWA licensing regs or similar im sure.

You will find that in England it breaks the health and safety law..............Health and safety say that NO child under the age of 16 is allowed to handle any bird of prey whether you are a private centre or open to the public.
This came up on a health and safety course at our centre last year................

[Sandeep]

And what the f**k were the parents thinking????? Bloody cheek to be angry as well. Didnt they see those talons???? Poor child... and even worse for the birds and reputation of Falconers....:evil: :evil:

[Sandalar]

sounds like its one of those situations where everyone should remember that we deal with animals and as such shouldn't mix animals with people who dont know what they are doing.No offence meant to the family involved but he shoudld have been under closer supervision.
They stopped people taking pictures with monkeys and chimps.For the sake of the birds they ought to stop this kind of thing in "public places".
by that I dont mean displays and cetres but walking the streets with a bird selling photos must be stressful for them.
I am 100% behind the bird who was only doing what comes naturally and applaud the Mum in question for her sensible attitude about the incident but would like to clobber the guys who are pedalling pictures.
Ok rant over
Blessings
Jonathan

[Rhondda Boy]

Agree With You To A Certain Extent. Monkeys And Chimp Mostly Abroad Are Kept In Horrendeous Conditions That Has To Be Stopped, But Surely If You Are A Resposible Falconer And You Know Your Bird Well The Risk Should Be Minimal. I Have A Little Boy 9years Old Who Helps Me When He Comes Over From Norway. He Started With Getting His Picture Taken With Birds At Kinross And Has Now Got A Passion For Bop. We Have To Teach The Young Ones Or The Art Of Falconry Could Die???

[ScotsFalconer]

wasnt blair drummond it was saltire falconry at the falkirk indoor market

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

Agree With You To A Certain Extent. Monkeys And Chimp Mostly Abroad Are Kept In Horrendeous Conditions That Has To Be Stopped, But Surely If You Are A Resposible Falconer And You Know Your Bird Well The Risk Should Be Minimal. I Have A Little Boy 9years Old Who Helps Me When He Comes Over From Norway. He Started With Getting His Picture Taken With Birds At Kinross And Has Now Got A Passion For Bop. We Have To Teach The Young Ones Or The Art Of Falconry Could Die???
Theres about as much chance of the art of falconry dying out in the UK as there is of these people taking responsability for their actions. Privately kids should be educated, but not via this route.

[Barry]

I've heard a great deal about this crowd up here, all of it negative. We did an eagle thing up here about three years ago and a few weeks later they were claiming it was them who were doing it as it was quite the success, so they tried to claim credit, even using our name.
I totally agree that the whole shopping centre, market place, cinema foyer thing needs to be legally and entirely stopped.

Barry.

[FlameHairedFalconer]

We Have To Teach The Young Ones Or The Art Of Falconry Could Die???

I feel that at the age of 1, having an eagle land on you and grip is likely to put you off birds of prey for life.

There are much better ways to educate young people than shoving an oversized glove on their fist, balencing an owl on it and taking a polariod. School talks, trips and displays, getting them to make jesses etc out of scraps of leather, holding, feeling and drawing feathers. All of these can ignite a childs passion without placing them in any danger.

My own passion for birds of prey was started at the age of 7 when I watched a wild sparrowhawk dismember and eat a small bird through a kitchen window.

FHF

[Berkut]

Its got pretty grim when these whores feel the need to ply their trade in shopping centres :roll:
I agree.That is one thing I feel very strongly about.If that is what people call falconry they should give it up and go and get a real job.

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

Has anyone complained to the venue via Email? i am going to put my concerns into text and put them forward. This could be the way to cut the problem out at the root. If enough of us were to voice concern maybe this would prompt action.

[Barry]

I totally agree Karl, lets motivate as many people as we can to write via whatever method they can to any venue where this goes on and get it stopped. If the authorities will not ban these things then we can try to make it socially unacceptable to the public and morally unacceptable to the venues that entertain this type of thing.

Barry.

[MickeyDredd]

I totally agree Karl, lets motivate as many people as we can to write via whatever method they can to any venue where this goes on and get it stopped. If the authorities will not ban these things then we can try to make it socially unacceptable to the public and morally unacceptable to the venues that entertain this type of thing.
Barry.

Just be aware that you may be jeopardising the future of public displays, experience days etc by going down this road, why should the authorities necessarily wish to stop at shopping centres and retail parks.

I'm sure neither of you would wish to do the anti's work for them and put your livelihood at risk ;)

[Varmint]

So i wonder where both of you would be if we were to do this and make it unexceppatble to go into schools as well?

What is worse? after all dont you both (K and Barry) go into school buildings with your birds and even free fly them around so many children?

You cant throw the whole barrel away for one bad apple!

Double standards lads

[CoyoteOutlaw]

So i wonder where both of you would be if we were to do this and make it unexceppatble to go into schools as well?

What is worse? after all dont you both (K and Barry) go into school buildings with your birds and even free fly them around so many children?

You cant throw the whole barrel away for one bad apple!

Double standards lads

Persoanally, I feel that there is a HUGE difference in using bops for education at schools, and what these people were doing. I wouldn't dream of putting any of the birds I work with on someone's fist who wasn't trained to work with them, esp a child! If it is your own bird and own child that is one thing, but to put an eagle on a child at a market for a bit of money is insane, even if it is the best mannered eagle in the world, it is still an eagle, capable of doing a lot of damage.

[CoyoteOutlaw]

I feel that at the age of 1, having an eagle land on you and grip is likely to put you off birds of prey for life.

There are much better ways to educate young people than shoving an oversized glove on their fist, balencing an owl on it and taking a polariod. School talks, trips and displays, getting them to make jesses etc out of scraps of leather, holding, feeling and drawing feathers. All of these can ignite a childs passion without placing them in any danger.

My own passion for birds of prey was started at the age of 7 when I watched a wild sparrowhawk dismember and eat a small bird through a kitchen window.

FHF

I completly agree! Mine started when I saw a bald eagle up close for the first time at an educational bird demo

[Barry]

We do do educational talks etc in schools, and while I agree the walk has to be a carefull one to get the poor stuff removed, a school talk or display is a million miles from putting birds into stressful situations with poor air quality and sticking all kinds of birds on gloves for money or promotion and a picture. I will put my hands up and say a few years past we did it, but it makes you feel dirty and hate the way the birds seem to take it. This is no different in any bird I have seen in any such environment. I think the worst is a proud eagle stuck in a shopping centre to sell a gift voucher. I have never done this, and never will.

Barry.

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

So i wonder where both of you would be if we were to do this and make it unexceppatble to go into schools as well?

What is worse? after all dont you both (K and Barry) go into school buildings with your birds and even free fly them around so many children?

You cant throw the whole barrel away for one bad apple!

Double standards lads

Schools are a completely different enviroment as you have teachers regulating what goes on. In a commercial enviroment you are putting birds in close proximity to people who are under no real organisation. Even more so than at a public display at say a country show or fete. You will experience those who dont care about there actions toward a bird, uncontroled children, uncontroled enviromental incidences. In a class room enviroment I dont free fly or encourage en mass handling either. The flying is done on school fields without the risk of collisions etc. I personally will not use the avenue of forcing birds into commercial buildings for a photo opportunity, and to promote myself whilst lining my pockets. I might earn less Varmint but I dont care.

[Takajo]

So far so good in Japan.
School exhibitions: full news coverage+
raptor incidents involving kids: zero to date+
I believe the high price of raptors has kept most of the muppets away.

[Moses]

thats just plain silly

[Onyx25]

there are alot of idiots like that about, we did a talk for a school in south england some years back with a european and a harris'. At the end a young girl asked to hold the european!! After gently explaining just how powerful they are and that it wasn't suitable she claimed "the last man let me" and promptly produced a photo of another european sat on her head!!!!

[Tim Laycock]

Madness :o

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

It comes down to what people are willing to do for money. Now Ive whored myself out working for some greedy people but I aint going to do it to my birds.

[Takajo]

there are alot of idiots like that about, we did a talk for a school in south england some years back with a european and a harris'. At the end a young girl asked to hold the european!! After gently explaining just how powerful they are and that it wasn't suitable she claimed "the last man let me" and promptly produced a photo of another european sat on her head!!!!
If it'd copulated on her head, who knows what charges could've been filed:roll:

[Pitbull]

its a bit like the days when you had people going around with the marmasets taking photos of you with it on your shoulder. and some of you older ones may remember the chimps

[Tim Laycock]

its a bit like the days when you had people going around with the marmasets taking photos of you with it on your shoulder. and some of you older ones may remember the chimps

Speak to the organ grinder not the monkey :rolleyes: :lol:

[Bengal Owl]

when i do displays i have to have my public liability insurance on display as well it has to be a min of £1 million cover max of £5 million for the school fairs or talks i do,
this was something that the schools and council agreed on same with falconry centers or businesses so should my bird attack someone they know i am covered if someone wants there photo taken it done in a controlled area
yes i walk around the fairs with the bird on the arm but people are told not to come near if walking with it the display is blocked of to allow one person at a time to come near the bird or its just me the wife and my kids that are near them,
i don't know the law for displays in Scotland but safety sould come first for the public,

[Merger]

So it was true then,, its no bloody wonder falconry in the uk is just becoming a big joke around other parts of the world!! a pathetic **** take brought about by yet more greed!!! why cant some rich arab come and take me away!!!!!

[Yarak1]

Schools are a completely different enviroment as you have teachers regulating what goes on. In a commercial enviroment you are putting birds in close proximity to people who are under no real organisation. Even more so than at a public display at say a country show or fete. You will experience those who dont care about there actions toward a bird, uncontroled children, uncontroled enviromental incidences. In a class room enviroment I dont free fly or encourage en mass handling either. The flying is done on school fields without the risk of collisions etc. I personally will not use the avenue of forcing birds into commercial buildings for a photo opportunity, and to promote myself whilst lining my pockets. I might earn less Varmint but I dont care.

How is a school field any different to a falconry display? The dangers are still the same if the falconer is not a responsible person!!

[Miguel]

I think the problem is that nowdays everyone can start their own business using bop's... Here in Portugal we had a case worse then that one, when a kid was attacked by an eagle on a dispay near my place. The bird went after a yellow toy that the kid had on his hand (probably thinking it was a doc), and she grabbed the kid in his face (7 stitches and a big scar)... I've seen the way that guy trains, the way he treats his birds and the way he conducts his displays and he shouldn't be allowed to to what he does!
The problem is that something like this affect everybody else. I've had peolpe seeing our display, and asking about that incident. Then I have to explain that it wasn't with us, and that a behavior like that it's not natural and normal to bop's... It's tough to see the hard work you have to teach people about these great birds, be washed away by some irresponsable and careless guy...

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

How is a school field any different to a falconry display? The dangers are still the same if the falconer is not a responsible person!!
We arent talking about a falconry display. Were talking about someone at an indoor market letting people walk up to birds willy nilly. I.E. someone not being responsible. If you read his press statement he says its because the birds are all hand reared and that it wanted too be picked up!!! This is an absolute lie, as I know for a fact that the bird in question was imported via an infamous bird dealer from Kazahkstan zoo and was PR.

[BarneyAndMonty]

You will find that in England it breaks the health and safety law..............Health and safety say that NO child under the age of 16 is allowed to handle any bird of prey whether you are a private centre or open to the public.
This came up on a health and safety course at our centre last year................

Is this right:?: I've been to many centres that allow under 16's to hold Bops, I've seen 1/2 day experiences that are geared towards the younger child. I thought it was more a question of Public Liability insurance:confused:
David

[Miguel]

as I know for a fact that the bird in question was imported via an infamous bird dealer from Kazahkstan zoo and was PR.

Probably wild caught... Like the steppe eagles schemes in Russian zoo's...

[Yarak1]

Is this right:?: I've been to many centres that allow under 16's to hold Bops, I've seen 1/2 day experiences that are geared towards the younger child. I thought it was more a question of Public Liability insurance:confused:
David

The health and safety officer that visited our centre which we welcomed told us that it was against health and safety regulations to let any child under 16 hold a bird of prey whether you were a private or a public centre...........Also that if a child was injured then an insurance company may use the regulations as a reason to not pay out.......

Just telling it as it was told to us...............

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

If you read the press release the kid wasnt handling the bird. He was allowed unatended to get too close to the bird.

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

Probably wild caught... Like the steppe eagles schemes in Russian zoo's...
The paper work said captive bred. But I fear your right mate. One of the five eagles imported was sold on injured and later died, technically illegaly sold at that.

[Merger]

The health and safety officer that visited our centre which we welcomed told us that it was against health and safety regulations to let any child under 16 hold a bird of prey whether you were a private or a public centre...........Also that if a child was injured then an insurance company may use the regulations as a reason to not pay out.......

Just telling it as it was told to us...............I am not sure completely on this, is this advice or actual law,, my insurers stated to me this year having had a good chat, that they insured anyone any age!! with this I lied to my contractors and said min age fourteen, for actual handling a bird, if this is actualy law I can go back and change it, I will then try and make sure every other proffesional in the uk adears to it, buy making sure everyone knows they are breaking said law, if this is true it could have serious repocussions!!!!

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

If places like the hawk conservancey are carrying this sort of thing out on bank holidays, I seriously doubt its validity. Falconry UK would be the ones to answer this accurately as they opporate a junior experience club thingy.

[Hawkwing]

once saw saltire falconry at errol car boot sale,birds were in a bit of a state,the guy had his owls,falcons and hawks on blocks which were sitting on concrete.When i challenged the guy about the state of them he more or less told me to clear off.When i had a word with the car boot sale owner about it he wasnt intrested as long as saltire were paying there pitch.shocking

[Tim Laycock]

I think the health and safety officer was making it up as he went along!!! :rolleyes:

[Yarak1]

I am not sure completely on this, is this advice or actual law,, my insurers stated to me this year having had a good chat, that they insured anyone any age!! with this I lied to my contractors and said min age fourteen, for actual handling a bird, if this is actualy law I can go back and change it, I will then try and make sure every other proffesional in the uk adears to it, buy making sure everyone knows they are breaking said law, if this is true it could have serious repocussions!!!!

Hi Merger, this is what we were told........ButI checked with my insurance company and they had no age restriction on my Liability insurance..They still haven't.......
So where I and others stand I am not sure.........John

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

I think the health and safety officer was making it up as he went along!!! :rolleyes:
Well said that man.

[Yarak1]

I think the health and safety officer was making it up as he went along!!! :rolleyes:

And what if he wasn't?

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

Then I would have asked for it in writing confirmed via his office. No point to taking chances.

[Yarak1]

Then I would have asked for it in writing confirmed via his office.

So who am I to doubt the bloke?....................It's his job.......

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

Have you never come across an over zealous or mistaken government employee? As I said I would have asked for it in writing confirmed via his office, so as you had it for referance for future reference. Just seams like common sense with such a statement having been made.

[BarneyAndMonty]

Me thinks there will be alot of phone calls being made to insurance companies tomorrow:!: :!: It's got to be safer than sorry.

[Yarak1]

Have you never come across an over zealous or mistaken government employee? As I said I would have asked for it in writing confirmed via his office, so as you had it for referance for future reference. Just seams like common sense with such a statement having been made.

Can't say I have.......but in the future I will..cheers

[Yarak1]

Me thinks there will be alot of phone calls being made to insurance companies tomorrow:!: :!:

What I would like to know is: if the health and safety are right about an age limit 16yrs old but the insurance company has no age limit for handling birds...........what would be the outcome if a young kid did get hurt? Would the insurance company bring into play the health and safety issue to avoid paying out?.........After all as a centre we have to abide by the health and safety guidelines...............

[W Jenkins]

Just read the thread and replys chaps but what exactly are we saying here are we saying the guy is exploiting his birds and falconry and he hasn,t a clue what he is doin cause i would not beleive all that is written especially the Daily record, i know the guy in question and if you care to do a little home work on him you will be surprised not only of his actual set up but his experiance of handling Bops this could have happened anywhere even bird centres, how many have you seen people gettin there photo,s taken holding birds.

Gary does know his stuff and has a few experienced falconers work for him so lets gather all the info first before we shaft him.

PS

Why don,t all the local lads who have raptors in Scotland go along and speak to him cause there seems to be a lot gettin the penny,s worth in?

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

Agreed whole heartedly it needs confirmation if anyone does intend handling buy this age group. Personally the age limit set by myself means I dont have to worry.

[Yarak1]

Just read the thread and replys chaps but what exactly are we saying here are we saying the guy is exploiting his birds and falconry and he hasn,t a clue what he is doin cause i would not beleive all that is written especially the Daily record, i know the guy in question and if you care to do a little home work on him you will be surprised not only of his actual set up but his experiance of handling Bops this could have happened anywhere even bird centres, how many have you seen people gettin there photo,s taken holding birds.

Gary does know his stuff and has a few experienced falconers work for him so lets gather all the info first before we shaft him.

PS

Why don,t all the local lads who have raptors in Scotland go along and speak to him cause there seems to be a lot gettin the penny,s worth in?

Well said Mr Jenkins................

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

Just read the thread and replys chaps but what exactly are we saying here are we saying the guy is exploiting his birds and falconry and he hasn,t a clue what he is doin cause i would not beleive all that is written especially the Daily record, i know the guy in question and if you care to do a little home work on him you will be surprised not only of his actual set up but his experiance of handling Bops this could have happened anywhere even bird centres, how many have you seen people gettin there photo,s taken holding birds.

Gary does know his stuff and has a few experienced falconers work for him so lets gather all the info first before we shaft him.

PS

Why don,t all the local lads who have raptors in Scotland go along and speak to him cause there seems to be a lot gettin the penny,s worth in?

Via the state of the redtail on the web hes holding for the camera I would be concerned.

[Yarak1]

Just read the thread and replys chaps but what exactly are we saying here are we saying the guy is exploiting his birds and falconry and he hasn,t a clue what he is doin cause i would not beleive all that is written especially the Daily record, i know the guy in question and if you care to do a little home work on him you will be surprised not only of his actual set up but his experiance of handling Bops this could have happened anywhere even bird centres, how many have you seen people gettin there photo,s taken holding birds.

Gary does know his stuff and has a few experienced falconers work for him so lets gather all the info first before we shaft him.

PS

Why don,t all the local lads who have raptors in Scotland go along and speak to him cause there seems to be a lot gettin the penny,s worth in?

But why does he think that being in a market place is right for not only his birds but for falconry? Does it not turn falconry and birds into just a gimmick for money???

[Merger]

Agreed whole heartedly it needs confirmation if anyone does intend handling buy this age group. Personally the age limit set by myself means I dont have to worry.That sounds about right, the older the better as far as I am concerned, theres nothing wrong in taking someones picture with a bird of prey, providing the bird is not as big as the person!! as normal, greed over comes common sense!!! they should be rogered up the *ss, with there own birds feet. Messers!!

[BarneyAndMonty]

Hi Merger, this is what we were told........ButI checked with my insurance company and they had no age restriction on my Liability insurance..They still haven't.......
So where I and others stand I am not sure.........John

Thinking about this logically, if something is in H&S regs surely insurance firms policies must support it:?: If not then they are encouraging people to break the regulations.
As previously said, a phone call to both insurance firm and the local H&S office is the way to resolve this one:!: Better safe than sorry
David

[W Jenkins]

So why then Yarak1 do we have a very well known garden centres up and down the country allow people to set up buisness on there premises for the public to come and have there photos taken with the birds from kestrels to EEO,s and of course to book hunting trips and days out? what makes an open markey any different, people are facinated when they see such magnificent creatures like eagles and all birds of prey in general and will want to ask questions and be photographed with them.

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

The people going through these facilities are completly different as I mentioned earlier. If you at a garden centre falconry centre, people have wandered in there out of genuine interest. In the market enviroment you will have all sorts of people some of them rude some ignorant some willing to just try annoying the birds and there handlers. Thats not even concidering the people minding their own business that may be bird phobic.

[Wingless]

I have met Gary and have seen his birds all over the place. Without getting into arguments as to where and why to do photos/handling with birds, i honestly find it appalling that he does not fly any of them and he will openly admit he does not really know how to do this (i have friends he's approached to do flying displays for him when he's at fairs etc). I have also met several of his "experienced" staff. Here's an example, not long ago a member of the public was standing asking one of the guys about the birds and he started telling them how one of the red tails untied its "string" (quote) and flew off into the indoor market, he thought it was bloody hilarious. You only have to look at the condition of the birds themselves, no tails, very poor feather quality, **** everywhere... people can make their own minds up im sure.

[TGW]

You do have to be carefull in cases like this as there are many Falconry centres/displays that could get caught out in just the same way. As there is no licensing scheme there are many who are making a living on fancifull claims of the product they are selling. This case is really no different. How can one supplier of a product claim to be better than another when there is no benchmark or body to oversee the proceedings. How can anyone claim to be for example voted the best experience day when there is no comparison of the product. This chap is selling pictures of BoP, whether or not you agree with what is going on, if you don't accept an overseeing body is required then you cannot complain. But if you then have a licensing system how many will claim "grandfather rights" which will stop any real progress for years.

[Merger]

Perhaps you should meet him again, and you shove the eagles feet up his *ss....Why do we tolerate this behavoiur, against our own reputations as proffesionals...

[Tim Laycock]

And what if he wasn't?

Check my occupation in my profile :yawinkle:

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

Perhaps you should meet him again, and you shove the eagles feet up his *ss....Why do we tolerate this behavoiur, against our own reputations as proffesionals...
Thank christ its not just me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Wingless]

great idea lads but he's far bigger than i am, ill wimp out on this one! lol

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

I wonder if we could get our picture taken. PMSL

[Yarak1]

So why then Yarak1 do we have a very well known garden centres up and down the country allow people to set up buisness on there premises for the public to come and have there photos taken with the birds from kestrels to EEO,s and of course to book hunting trips and days out? what makes an open markey any different, people are facinated when they see such magnificent creatures like eagles and all birds of prey in general and will want to ask questions and be photographed with them.

As K says, it's a controlled environment where people walk in who are interested in the birds........they won't be able to just walk up to any bird they like or stand in a dangerous position..........If you think that what your friend is doing is good for falconry then maybe you need to question your own ethics ..............................

[Merger]

Nice web site, snobbish, Oh well Ill see if I can come up with another interesting new thread tommorow, in the meantime, if aproached by a youngster that you wouldnt pass over a guinea pig to hold, dont pass over your bird, serouisly yous your own common BL**DY sense, dont be tempted by your pocket!!!

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

Just a question Merger what do you reckon to busy shopping centres for these shananigans?

[Merger]

Stood in a few in Scotland!! I done it once down here to sell handling sessions, I lasted one day in this up market centre, not a good Idea in the heart of anti hunt country!! had two visits in two hours from the rspca, before realising this was not the place to advertise my sessions, and have never done it again, thankfully, stopped flying displays,this year because could not stand the flack! and stopped taking guests hunting last year, for good, because of all the realease pens bieng kicked in, twice,,now I am just starting to enjoy falconry again!

[Bengal Owl]

ok his showing his bird of in public but public liability insurance give out a guide line to what you can do how you display your birds yes some make money for them self or for others, falconry centres where every set up will have public liability cover to cover them and this rule will change if on public display at different locations small print of mine says what i can and can not do on public shows
1/no free flying of eagles or eagle owls in public places
2/static display must be blocked to stop public gaining access to birds
3/bird must remain on handles keepers or trained member of staff fist if walking with bird no public are to handle
4/for the taking of photographs only one person plus the handler keeper or member of trained staff must be with bird and the handle keeper or trained member of staff must keep control of bird at all time

and have a lot more rules for displays in public also for part four and two i had get a cover letter to confirm that public can handle the bird only if the the leash is in the hand of handler keeper or trained member of staff with the number of public set at one per photograph allowed in area of bird

and have read two stories of what happen one saying the boy was handling an owl at the time the other saying the boy lowered his arm near the bird and the bird just jumped on was it his arm or his back probably the one at fault are the press and not the falconer and also in one saying the mother watch CCTV and saw that the bird was not at fault about the only thing that both said the same was that it took four people to pull the bird off,

[Merger]

You can get your own liability loaded how you want it, dependind on exactly what you are doing with the bird, the cover has to be specific or like any insurance it will be void! this is what I think some people dont realise,But it will cost you more !!!! I have to have 5million premium min, and even specifi group numbers and time duration, it is in four figures!!!

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

Fact is things have been allowed to get out of hand and incidents like this cast falconry in a very bad light. The way forward is to act respsosibly and not put birds into this situation. End of.

[ScotsFalconer]

more letters to the hawk board are needed

[Zam]

Just read the thread and replys chaps but what exactly are we saying here are we saying the guy is exploiting his birds and falconry and he hasn,t a clue what he is doin cause i would not beleive all that is written especially the Daily record, i know the guy in question and if you care to do a little home work on him you will be surprised not only of his actual set up but his experiance of handling Bops this could have happened anywhere even bird centres, how many have you seen people gettin there photo,s taken holding birds.

Gary does know his stuff and has a few experienced falconers work for him so lets gather all the info first before we shaft him.

PS

Why don,t all the local lads who have raptors in Scotland go along and speak to him cause there seems to be a lot gettin the penny,s worth in?


I agree in principal - don't bash something until you have all the details. However, I cannot agree with this whole "shopping centre" stunt.

You say (quote) "Gary does know his stuff". I find this questionable. Surely, it is the duty of the handler present,to ensure the safety of his birds and the safety of the people from whom he is trying to financially gain.

It is his responsibility to make absolutely certain the people do not have access to the birds - without his supervision. Particularly if he is foolhardy enough to have a large and potentially dangerous bird like an eagle on "display"

If you are one of these people with the knack of engaging with the public - courses, displays, schools etc. - then I doubt you would want to do any of this in a shopping mall.

This is not falconry. It is not a display. It is certainly not educational. It is most definitely not doing the rest of us a service. It should be banned.

In my opinion - it is pure prostitution.:(

[ScotsFalconer]

well said that man

[Liam Hay]

Just on the point of insurance any company i spoke to to get insurance for dong displays all had the stipulation that under 16 could not handle birds!i doubt any ones insurance covers this

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

more letters to the hawk board are needed
Dont think it would help much.

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

Just on the point of insurance any company i spoke to to get insurance for dong displays all had the stipulation that under 16 could not handle birds!i doubt any ones insurance covers this
Clivewrton allowed it dont know about now though.

[Liam Hay]

Clivewrton allowed it dont know about now though.
i was with cliverton they had it down in mine no under 16's maybe a higher premium would have sorted this but i am from yorkshire

[Takajo]

This guy was displaying a raptor in a SHOPPING AREA!!? What more 'information' or 'all the facts' do you bloody need?!
Shut this narcissist/market gypsy down before all British falconry gets shut down!
What part of 'displaying a raptor in a marketplace' don't you understand??

[Varmint]

Takajo: displaying raptors in the middle of disneyworld? shut em down! Just joking! LOL

Just to clarify a few points!

Talon, I have a very, very comprehensive policy specially written by NFU for my commercial business, with a liability of £10Million.

I have never made a claim but after 9/11 the policy cost doubled.

Last year i was written to and asked to increase the age of any insured parties to 14yrs and over, which i have now done (never liked kids under 10 anyway)

Back to the original post: Anyone letting folks hold birds for photo's in a public market is a muppet, and can not call themsleves a Professional falconer in my book.

But what is a professional falconer?

In the past it might have been someone employed by landed gentry to provide entertainment and sport, which is no longer a reality

The options are to provide Falconry related entertainment when and where you can to earn your wage which includes Hunting days, Displays, talks ect, ect

My point is that it doesnt really matter where you take these birds, if they are not properly prepared, trained, imprinted to do the job, they wont do it!

You lose a bird, you lose your income , you lose your profession.

Many many commercial establisments have hit the high streets to sell activity days, myself included. It makes business sense to attract trade in a busy commercial setting, and if this stresses the birds, what would the difference be at a show, school or game fair?

If the bird is properly trained or imprinted for such an experience, whats the problem provide there is a divisible public barrier, no public contact of any kind, and articulate professionals ther to offer education and fair represenation?

Likewise, we can all jump under the "education" banner, I seem to remember one of the posters here having a falcon killed by gulls in a school playground not too long ago in front of many, many young children, very educational?

What we do is whore these birds for cash or our own selfish enjoyment! some of us just call it something nicer and try to dress it up with morals, HA!

But equally, if we are a private individual Falconer, what purer reasons do we keep these things in captivity, hungry and some might say, unhappy for?

K, you breed a few birds by A.I, is that for a hobby? or pastime? is it natural? or do you earn some dough from their internment?

Barry, you import Birds, some wild disabled from africa? do you give them away for nothing, is the air standards good in a wooden crate in a cargo hold?

I say once again folks, double standards..........

Even as private falconers, we all do it for our own selfish, personal enjoyment!

so whats worse?

Shopping centres, game fairs, schools, sunday markets, hunting field,breeders, importers we all exploit them for our own ends.

Where do we draw the line?

The difference is that some of us have a realsitic approach, whilst some are just fools standing on their shakey moral platforms!

The individual is in command of the birds in their charge, would it have been different if it was someones privately owned bird that hurt the kid? cause it happens and will happen even more judging by some of the folks that have birds now.

Provided the bird in your care is healthy, in good condition, kept in a safe and santitary suitable environment and above all else happy, whats the beef?

Leave your morals at the door Guys and get one with your life!

[Lasher]

Here! here! Varmint

[Talon]

[QUOTE=Varmint]Takajo: displaying raptors in the middle of disneyworld? shut em down! Just joking! LOL

Just to clarify a few points!

Talon, I have a very, very comprehensive policy specially written by NFU for my commercial business, with a liability of £10Million.

I have never made a claim but after 9/11 the policy cost doubled.


thought you meant me.?when you said (Talon.:)

[AngelJakki]

I don't agree with you there totally varmint. Sniping at other falconers in your area is low.
This is about birds being bantered around from one market to another. Sat until some person wants a pic taken with them. They get picked up pic took and returned I have seen them at the markets and seen the poeple waiting. Wether the bird is conditioned to it or not this is not the way to treat these or any other animal. The birds I saw on the occasions I have don't have baths down on hot summers days when they might want to cool down and they don't get misted either and those places can get hot. Some of the birds didn't look like they where in the best of condition either.
By all means take your flyers around the centre and hand them out and have a stall where people can learn about where you are but don't take your birds into that closed noisey area whether your bird is sound or not. The birds should be in the falconry centres where they can have their needs met. In the fresh air.
If you don't do it for the money then why do you do it?? Don't you breed birds and take them to shopping centres at christmas??

[Yarak1]

Takajo: displaying raptors in the middle of disneyworld? shut em down! Just joking! LOL

Just to clarify a few points!

Talon, I have a very, very comprehensive policy specially written by NFU for my commercial business, with a liability of £10Million.

I have never made a claim but after 9/11 the policy cost doubled.

Last year i was written to and asked to increase the age of any insured parties to 14yrs and over, which i have now done (never liked kids under 10 anyway)

Back to the original post: Anyone letting folks hold birds for photo's in a public market is a muppet, and can not call themsleves a Professional falconer in my book.

But what is a professional falconer?

In the past it might have been someone employed by landed gentry to provide entertainment and sport, which is no longer a reality

The options are to provide Falconry related entertainment when and where you can to earn your wage which includes Hunting days, Displays, talks ect, ect

My point is that it doesnt really matter where you take these birds, if they are not properly prepared, trained, imprinted to do the job, they wont do it!

You lose a bird, you lose your income , you lose your profession.

Many many commercial establisments have hit the high streets to sell activity days, myself included. It makes business sense to attract trade in a busy commercial setting, and if this stresses the birds, what would the difference be at a show, school or game fair?

If the bird is properly trained or imprinted for such an experience, whats the problem provide there is a divisible public barrier, no public contact of any kind, and articulate professionals ther to offer education and fair represenation?

Likewise, we can all jump under the "education" banner, I seem to remember one of the posters here having a falcon killed by gulls in a school playground not too long ago in front of many, many young children, very educational?

What we do is whore these birds for cash or our own selfish enjoyment! some of us just call it something nicer and try to dress it up with morals, HA!

But equally, if we are a private individual Falconer, what purer reasons do we keep these things in captivity, hungry and some might say, unhappy for?

K, you breed a few birds by A.I, is that for a hobby? or pastime? is it natural? or do you earn some dough from their internment?

Barry, you import Birds, some wild disabled from africa? do you give them away for nothing, is the air standards good in a wooden crate in a cargo hold?

I say once again folks, double standards..........

Even as private falconers, we all do it for our own selfish, personal enjoyment!

so whats worse?

Shopping centres, game fairs, schools, sunday markets, hunting field,breeders, importers we all exploit them for our own ends.

Where do we draw the line?

The difference is that some of us have a realsitic approach, whilst some are just fools standing on their shakey moral platforms!

The individual is in command of the birds in their charge, would it have been different if it was someones privately owned bird that hurt the kid? cause it happens and will happen even more judging by some of the folks that have birds now.

Provided the bird in your care is healthy, in good condition, kept in a safe and santitary suitable environment and above all else happy, whats the beef?

Leave your morals at the door Guys and get one with your life!

So you are in agreement with this market strategy?.
The birds are being used as puppets to make money..
Apparently they never get flown either............

If you need to enter a commercial noisy market atmosphere to prop up your business then that is sad...................Obviously your advertising needs looking at.............If you agree with the way these particular birds are being exploited mate then you are a disgrace to falconry!!!!!!!!!!

[Yarak1]

I don't agree with you there totally varmint. Sniping at other falconers in your area is low.
This is about birds being bantered around from one market to another. Sat until some person wants a pic taken with them. They get picked up pic took and returned I have seen them at the markets and seen the poeple waiting. Wether the bird is conditioned to it or not this is not the way to treat these or any other animal. The birds I saw on the occasions I have don't have baths down on hot summers days when they might want to cool down and they don't get misted either and those places can get hot. Some of the birds didn't look like they where in the best of condition either.
By all means take your flyers around the centre and hand them out and have a stall where people can learn about where you are but don't take your birds into that closed noisey area whether your bird is sound or not. The birds should be in the falconry centres where they can have their needs met. In the fresh air.
If you don't do it for the money then why do you do it?? Don't you breed birds and take them to shopping centres at christmas??

Totally agree with you there Angeljakki

[Sandalar]

just a thought
BOPs are essentially hunters with millions of years worth of evolution behind them and really mostly motivated by food if we are all honest.
They are also potentially dangerous and difficult to handle. If they weren't there wouldn't be masses of backup and advice flying around about how best to keep them and train them.
Even experienced falconers have been hurt by their birds.

Therefore why would anyone want a BOP,even a little owl (talons are meant for killing things after all) being taken into a totally unpredictable environment with no control or restrictions on the area the birds are in.

No one would take for instance take a lion or tiger into such an environment even one of my cats would go mental and hurt someone (probably me lol) if it were taken into such a demanding and stressful place.

Organised displays and meets etc have controls on where the birds are, who is handling them and how long they are in contact with "the public".
Absolutely nothing wrong with that it's common sense.
These poor birds are obviously not being looked after properly and that is shameful.
I will point out that as with my earlier post I am not poking a finger at the eagle he/she is not the one at fault.
The Handler is.

I also agree with Angeljakki the birds well being is really the point here ad it cannot be cared for properly in that environment.
blessings
Jonathan

[Harris]

The trouble in this country is that there are no laws to control it! If you took your dog out and it bit a child, its bye bye dog! I only hope that the parents of this little girl make a substantial claim against these people (wonder if they have public liability insurance?) :roll:

[Sandalar]

Well said Harris
I bet they dont though.
wouldn't want it to adversly affect the BOP's though (if anyones listening)

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

The only reason Varmint resurfaced from where ever hes been hiding is this could affect his wallet. Hes not listening to the mass of numbers because this could affect the way he does things.

[Yarak1]

The only reason Varmint resurfaced from where ever hes been hiding is this could affect his wallet. Hes not listening to the mass of numbers because this could affect the way he does things.

Exactly that K .................best if he dissapears back to the hole he crawled out from!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Yarak1]

Quote by Varmint/My point is that it doesnt really matter where you take these birds, if they are not properly prepared, trained, imprinted to do the job, they wont do it!
Many many commercial establisments have hit the high streets to sell activity days, myself included. It makes business sense to attract trade in a busy commercial setting, and if this stresses the birds, what would the difference be at a show, school or game fair?

If this is your idea of an environment you deem suitable for taking birds to.........see pics then you want banning from owning birds...............

[Yarak1]

[QUOTE=Varmint /My point is that it doesnt really matter where you take these birds, if they are not properly prepared, trained, imprinted to do the job, they wont do it!
Many many commercial establisments have hit the high streets to sell activity days, myself included. It makes business sense to attract trade in a busy commercial setting, and if this stresses the birds, what would the difference be at a show, school or game fair?



This is my idea of a proper environment...............Can you spot the difference mate???????????????

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

I know we have had our differences Yarak1 but I am 100% behind you with this one. I dont want this to turn into a Battle with Varmint. This is about greed and the miss use of birds.

[Yarak1]

I know we have had our differences Yarak1 but I am 100% behind you with this one. I dont want this to turn into a Battle with Varmint. This is about greed and the miss use of birds.

I totally agree K...........as for differences no probs.........Cheers, John.

[Barry]

Adrian,

Good to hear your debate on this issue. However I would appreciate it if you would not ask questions that plant seeds without real justification.

My point is you asked do I import birds from Africa, some wild disabled, and do I give them away for nothing?
I have never imported any bird from Africa, wild or captive bred.
I have never imported any wild disabled bird from any location anywhere in the world.
I have imported two birds in my life. Both of them white Gyrs from Bob Berry in the US. To ensure standard of care I went over and collected the Jerkin and Bob delivered the falcon to my home.
For my stand on African imports of wild birds please see the trapping for trade thread on this list and you will see my stand on the issue. In short I agree, cramped damp boxes are no environment for any bird, so I agree with your point. Indeed I am currently active in pushing to control or stop the import of wild birds from Africa, and am hoping to start a UK breeding project of African raptors for re-introduction in Africa. I think this clears up the point.

As said on the trapping thread, I have bought birds that have been trapped and imported by others. It is the issues this fact has raised that that has me so vehemently against the activity. None of the birds I bought were ordered specifically for me. They were here and I, in my previous ignorance, bought them. I have never sold any bird I have bought for a profit. I am not nor will ever be a bird importer, trader or dealer.

I hope this clears the issue for you and that you may now continue to make your points and arguments, whether specifically aimed at others as individuals or generally, based on the real facts at hand.

Barry.

[AndyYounger]

During the summer of last year i was contacted by a falconer who wanted to buy a young bird from me. His name i cannot remember now but he did say he worked for saltire falconry. when he mentioned that i remember they were the ones that take their birds to kinross market for photos. i told him i would not sell them one of my birds!
i also remember them having birds a the odeon cinema on the relese of one of the harry potter films.
The guy who was doing the photos didnt have to much to say when i questioned him about a tircel pere that was bating constantly. he tried to say the bird was exercising.
*****

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

I would love to hear first hand the account of the incident from saltire. This is an open forum and I think you all would agree that if this is missrepresentation he is welcome to state his case.

[Takajo]

Even as private falconers, we all do it for our own selfish, personal enjoyment!

so whats worse?

Shopping centres, game fairs, schools, sunday markets, hunting field,breeders, importers we all exploit them for our own ends.

Where do we draw the line?


I'd say right through the the two words 'sunday' and 'markets':minigun:

[Yarak1]

Originally Posted by Varmint

Even as private falconers, we all do it for our own selfish, personal enjoyment!



Actually some of us do it because our birds enjoy it!!!!!!!!!

I'm sure that they don't enjoy going off to market places though!!!!

But also you seem to have gone very quiet on the subject???

[Varmint]

Quiet? not at all just allowing for a balanced argument to develop!

I have said my piece! and i stand by it...

I have publically denounced Saltire for what he does not only on here but at every event i have seen them at, but who am i or you to do so? he is not breaking the law, nor are you doing what you do...

It's the laws that needs changing, but just be careful about what you wish for, thats all im saying.

To some, its a very thin line we tread between what we percieve as being "morally" acceptable and what others percieve.. see what i mean.

Barry, my sincere apologise for calling you an importer, i thought you had imported a consignment of Walhberg Eagles, i do beg your pardon.

[Yarak1]

My point is that it doesnt really matter where you take these birds, if they are not properly prepared, trained, imprinted to do the job, they wont do it!


Hold on Adrian................it does ****ing matter where you take the birds trained or not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Pitbull]

For me its not a natural environment (shopping centres) to have a bird in its mews over night then place it in a transporting box till they get to their destination, then be in a covered area with false air circulated, and then to be placed back in the box to go home and shut away again in the mews. Ok during the summer months they maybe aloud for good behaviour to sit out on a lawn. To me this kind of life is not stimulating.
God i feel bad for having my birds outside everyday in the open air for them to be only flown for a few hours each day.

for those doing displays here there and everywhere the bird must not know wether its coming or going, to me its nothing like the average falconer going to thier permission, or the falconry centre where the bird knows its surroundings

[Pitbull]

f*"k me im half way through doing a contract for £100,000 but it doesnt mean im doing it right. Im doing it for the money, but not exploiting anyone or anything

bar the wife and the kids,:lol:

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

You see Adrian this is what you are all about mate...........MONEY!!!!!! the bird comes second!!!!!!!!!!!

And don't PM me with any answers, put it out here for all to see!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Can I second that.

[Yarak1]

Can I second that.

Sure you can Karl............

[Yarak1]

f*"k me im half way through doing a contract for £100,000 but it doesnt mean im doing it right. Im doing it for the money, but not exploiting anyone or anything

bar the wife and the kids,:lol:


Bet it's not in a bad environment though is it?

[Merger]

I know we have had our differences Yarak1 but I am 100% behind you with this one. I dont want this to turn into a Battle with Varmint. This is about greed and the miss use of birds.Hello guys, Im back now,hope I havent lit a fire here,, as for all this money bieng made,, blimey what did I do wrong!!! you saw my views on shopping malls, if I see you in one with a bird, Ill batter you!

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

Hello guys, Im back now,hope I havent lit a fire here,, as for all this money bieng made,, blimey what did I do wrong!!! you saw my views on shopping malls, if I see you in one with a bird, Ill batter you!
I would hope you would mate PMSL!

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

K, you breed a few birds by A.I, is that for a hobby? or pastime? is it natural? or do you earn some dough from their internment?:

Yes adrian I do breed birds and I do make money from this. But I dont ask them to do it in a ****in shopping centre! Certain places arent suited to any falconry bird being there this is one. It comes down to the level of respect you have for your charges, or lack of it.

[Varmint]

Well chaps ill just have to agree to disagree!

As i said earlier, i do not approve of the guy from Saltire doing what he does but you nor anybody else can do anything within the law to stop him at present!

As for a suitable environment for the birds? where exactly should that be? Tied up in your back garden? left in a converted out building? If you have a gyr would that be Greenland? or a HH should the ideal environment really be New mexico?

Air quality? are you guys telling me that the air in my local shopping centre is good enough for you, but not a bird?

Perhaps we shouldnt fly our birds on landfills with the obviouse levels of toxins and waste by-products, not to mention the methane, which is why the general public are not allowed in these places, but some do, and make a living from this kind of exploitation too.

How many birds have you heard of that die doing pest control work?

To the general public, putting a hawk in a blacked out travel box might seem alien too, but it's all about perception isnt it?

You see we can go on and on, where do we draw the line? trying to attack me personally for my comments is no way forward on this thread, i chose to repond to your comments Yarak about the way i market my company by PM, i would have hoped you would have respected that , but apparently not and i would ask any mods reading this to remove the portion of my PM from this public thread.

Come on guys let's keep this thread constructive rather than a witch hunt

If you want the liberty to own birds of prey and keep them as we do, then please consider how your own personal morals are percieved by others.

I for my part will continue to work within the letter of the law and risk ***** every job that i do, weighing up the safety and well being of both my customers as well as my birds.

And as for going out and doing displays, does no one here have to take their birds away from home to hunt? what is the birds impression when it comes out of a dark box into the hunting field? and how would that differ from a bird coming out to do a display?

I choose to bow out at this point as i have nothing else of merit or use to add.

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

You didnt have anything of use or merit to add in the first place. In my humble opinion. But buy the state of your reputation bar there are many who agree.

[Merger]

I think this thread has been waylaid a little, it should not become a slanging match between proffesionals, I know for a fact that sabs read this forum!! it was not a debate on shopping malls,it was a debate on passing an eagle over to a child!! I origenaly found this report on a news link, in the middle east, so if nothing else it made world news, try and keep the thread on link, and leave the slagging to those many people that are real anti falconry!!

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

Anyone actualy had first hand contact with Saltire with regards to this incident? I was hoping that we would have got the story straight from the horses mouth.

[Varmint]

After a telephone conversation with john at Yarak,

I would just like to clarify for the record that i do not condone anyone going into a "High Street" setting with BOP (i.e a street in the middle of a town) to promote their business.

My term "High-Street" in an earlier post was meant as a generic term for a business setting, and i apologise for any confusion i might have caused!

I responded mainly to the post made by K and Barry toward somebody going into a shopping centre which is exactly what i do for 2 weeks each year!( as they both well know?) to sell falconry experience gift vouchers as christmas gifts.

I stand by the fact that a controlled setting in a shopping centre, with divisible public barriers, NO public touching or handling of birds and good educational information about the birds and the sport is totally acceptable in my book, provided the right birds are used and in no way stressed, dirty or in bad feather. This was my original point comparing this setting to a school or Display!

Photography at markets and the like with birds is really really shabby and shows a distinct lack of both skill, business flair and imagination.

Anyone who really knows me will be aware that my birds get more care and attention than my wife and kids, and as for money?

I might be a professional falconer, but i work for a ltd Company on a salary, which i might add works out well below minimum wage for the hours i put in! so whether the company earns £10 or £10 million, i still earn the same salary! so i can hardly be accused of putting money before my birds!

I hope this has clarified my position on this matter!

And finally K, i am so pleased that you have found a way of expressing yourself and your inner man on this forum, well done!.

[Moses]

[QUOTE=Varmint /My point is that it doesnt really matter where you take these birds, if they are not properly prepared, trained, imprinted to do the job, they wont do it!
Many many commercial establisments have hit the high streets to sell activity days, myself included. It makes business sense to attract trade in a busy commercial setting, and if this stresses the birds, what would the difference be at a show, school or game fair?



This is my idea of a proper environment...............Can you spot the difference mate???????????????


yarak thats beautiful mate, well done :) nice pics indeed

[Zam]

Off topic a bit - but Yarak - your place looks really immaculate. I LOVE that enormous eagle you have by the wooden benches. It must be a full-time job keeping the place looking like that!!

Varmint - your comment about the air quality in shopping malls (Why is it good enough for people - but not for birds?) I think that is a very true point. It's not.

I don't have air sacs. I don't breathe the same way a raptor does. I don't have pneumatic bones. I actually smoke (yeh, yeh, right) But my God - I will not have a cigarette within a mile of my birds. Two and a half hours drive - each way - to my vet - without a single puff!!!!:evil: Thankfully this doesn't happen often!!

So, no, the recycled air in a crowded, dusty shopping mall is NOT good enough for ANYONES birds!!

[Sprout]

Off topic a bit - but Yarak - your place looks really immaculate. I LOVE that enormous eagle you have by the wooden benches. It must be a full-time job keeping the place looking like that!!

Varmint - your comment about the air quality in shopping malls (Why is it good enough for people - but not for birds?) I think that is a very true point. It's not.

I don't have air sacs. I don't breathe the same way a raptor does. I don't have pneumatic bones. I actually smoke (yeh, yeh, right) But my God - I will not have a cigarette within a mile of my birds. Two and a half hours drive - each way - to my vet - without a single puff!!!!:evil: Thankfully this doesn't happen often!!

So, no, the recycled air in a crowded, dusty shopping mall is NOT good enough for ANYONES birds!!
Strongly disagree with that. ALL malls now are legally smoke free and are actively air conditioned!! How many people do smoke or have air fresheners in their cars whilst travelling birds, or more to the point how many people have air conditioning in their birds travelling boxes or even mews???

[Sprout]

This is the 4th time I've tried to post something of my views and each bloody time I delete it or the computer crashes!!!!

Anyway, my view! I have no problem with people making money out of falconry so long as it doesn't bring falconry into disrepute. Saltire have done this - never mind the injury to the boy, they must have broke a whole list of health and safety as well as publi liability insurance (assuming they have it) requirements such as barriers, constant supervision etc?????? Adding further to the problems people have trying to get adequate cover at sensible prices!!
I have seen birds brought into malls and centres on a number of occasions - some very bad, some very good! Whats the overall problem?? Money?? The more professionals backing the sport then the better for falconry - a strong professional voice will go a long way if falconry is questioned by the people against us. The more members of the public on experience days, experiencing at least a little of what our sport is about then surely the better, it is better to have the public on our side than against us. If going into malls is what is required to bring the public on these courses then fine. I know of at least 2 centres that use such marketing and do it well, I've also helped out and know personally that the majority of the public are in favour but yes, there is the occasional voice questioning morality and ethics bringing birds into such environments. With a professional attitude and sympathetic voice even a number of these anti's can be brought around. So the arguements?? As per health and safety the bird are generally kept at a safe distance, no closer than the majority of birds tethered at falconry centres but more so the birds are well adjusted to the environment ie imprints - stressed??? I've seen birds try to fall asleep whilst at such places!!! Air quality?? Malls are now smoke free and actively air conditioned - better than probably everyones mews or travelling boxes!!!
If you don't like people making money out of falconry then fine, I don't see the problem (if done well in a positive light). But thats my view.

[Zam]

Strongly disagree with that. ALL malls now are legally smoke free and are actively air conditioned!! How many people do smoke or have air fresheners in their cars whilst travelling birds, or more to the point how many people have air conditioning in their birds travelling boxes or even mews???


I think you missed my point. I am, obviously, aware that all Malls are smoke free. What I wouldn't like (at least for my birds) is having them in an enclosed area (a shopping mall) with air which is being pumped and recycled through a conditioner.

I think it is fair to say, a bird - any bird - is better off outside in the fresh air.

I don't know about anyone else - but I certainly don't have any smelly "Green Trees" or similar so-called air fresheners in my vehicle!! And I find it hard to believe anyone would smoke near their bird!!!

[Sprout]

Most of the falconers I have been out with smoke like chimneys!!!! Keeps the midges away on moors!! Apparently. Of course fresh air is best, but there is nothing wrong with well maintained air conditioning, as I said, would be better than most peoples mews! I know it is completely off thread but what about the people who live in towns?? I think the air pollution from traffic etc would be far more harmful than air in a shopping mall??

[Sandalar]

Reading Varmints point about proper control in the public environment I have to agree in principal.
I think after that wether you want to take your birds into that type of environment is really a personal choice.
I personally don't agree with it and wouldn't condone it but if it is acceptable to the falconer, done properly, done safely with proper restrictions on access to the birds then I guess its ok.
kind of similar to a zoo environment.
It has its stressful side but at least the public cant get into contact with the birds.

just a thought to add what about the possible spread of disease from the public to the birds ...you dont know who keeps chucks or anyother sort of bird so close contact would be a bad idea regardless of wh=ether they are bops or any other sort of bird.
Jonathan

[Yarak1]

Off topic a bit - but Yarak - your place looks really immaculate. I LOVE that enormous eagle you have by the wooden benches. It must be a full-time job keeping the place looking like that!!

Varmint - your comment about the air quality in shopping malls (Why is it good enough for people - but not for birds?) I think that is a very true point. It's not.

I don't have air sacs. I don't breathe the same way a raptor does. I don't have pneumatic bones. I actually smoke (yeh, yeh, right) But my God - I will not have a cigarette within a mile of my birds. Two and a half hours drive - each way - to my vet - without a single puff!!!!:evil: Thankfully this doesn't happen often!!

So, no, the recycled air in a crowded, dusty shopping mall is NOT good enough for ANYONES birds!!

Hi Zam, cheers mate for the compliments!!!.yes lot of upkeep but worth it..My MOTTO is: "the birds don't ask to be with you if you have them respect them and look after them".......Cheers, John

[Freddie1]

So this has nothing to do with falconry more someone exploiting BOP's
Top answer dude this sort of thing should not be going on but we are back to the question of the law in this country again arnt we! LAW what LAW or should I say JOKE!:twisted:

[Yarak1]

[QUOTE=Yarak1]

[MickeyDredd]

[quote=Yarak1]

Good informative post, i'll add to your reputation right away ;) :lol:

[Yarak1]

[quote=Yarak1]

Good informative post, i'll add to your reputation right away ;) :lol:

Hi Mickey..yes I agree.........lol.don't know what happened there.............

[Dougie Mc]

what about the risk assecment that should be carried out and written down before you even take our birds out for a disply / show , if the risk assecment has not been done yor insurance is null and void ( and i no i can't spell)

Hybred

[Varmint]

[QUOTE=Varmint]

I for my part will continue to work within the letter of the law and risk ***** every job that i do, weighing up the safety and well being of both my customers as well as my birds.

QUOTE]

;)

[Kumben]

I was at a Game Fair. There were BOP, including an eagle, beautifully feathered and blocked out on immaculate blocks and perches and (than goodness) there was an adequate barrier made of planks at a suitable distance from the BOP. The birds all looked content and unstressed.
All the birds were at flying weight as they were to be used in the display later in the afternoon.There were 2 falconers supervising the birds and talking to the public from inside the barrier.
Somebody's uncontrolled little innocent kid climbed the barrier with a fluffy toy in his hand and as he swung his arms over the top of the barrier, the eagle instantaneously launched itself at the child, obviously mistaking the toy for a DOC. If the owner of these birds had not been an experienced falconer, and not done his risk assessment and not had the barrier the correct distance from the birds there could have been a nasty accident.

Most members of the public have no idea. It is up to us to do our risk assessments BEFORE the accident happens not afterwards.
And no-one should take a dirty scruffy bird ANYWHERE especially in the public eye.

[Sprout]

Very well said. Good news to hear of some doing it as it should be.

[BarneyAndMonty]

[QUOTE=Kumben]
Somebody's uncontrolled little innocent kid climbed the barrier QUOTE]

Parents have to do their bit aswell. Even though risk assesments have taken place, we parents are still responsible for our off spring and we need to educate them in the correct do's and dont's when visiting any visitor attraction. This unfortunately seems to be forgotten all to often these days.

[Zam]

Most of the falconers I have been out with smoke like chimneys!!!! Keeps the midges away on moors!! Apparently. Of course fresh air is best, but there is nothing wrong with well maintained air conditioning, as I said, would be better than most peoples mews! I know it is completely off thread but what about the people who live in towns?? I think the air pollution from traffic etc would be far more harmful than air in a shopping mall??


Absolutely agree 100% on the risk posed by traffic pollution!! I suppose you can get just TOO paranoid about the everyday risks surrounding both bird and falconer!!

I know when I venture into the big, bad cities, I really notice the difference in air "quality". But obviously, a lot of people - either by choice or necessity - live in towns and keeps happy healthy birds!!

It comes down to what you and your bird are used to and are happy with! I do like the clean air and dark skies (loads of stars!!) in the country.:-D

[Dougie Mc]

The only reason i mentioned it as a risk assesment if done will show the problems before they happen

Hybred

[Varmint]

Main risk on a normal display assesment is danger to the public from a falling object!

thats the only one that increases the risk tally, which still comes out as minimal!

Who did the static display you were talking about Kumben?

We are always ready to jump on those that do it wrong, but how about praise for those that do it right?

[Dougie Mc]

I would have thought a main risk would be a member of the public adult /child getting any where near your birds , so if a proper barrier is erected then that should cover it

[Scots-Goss-man]

I was at a local market (boot fair) in Ayr last summer and met a chap from the forum, Stephen i think his name was, he had around 10 birds with him including 2 HH a EEO i think a kestrel and a few others, and was taking pictures of anyone who wanted to hold his barn owl for £3, he also had a donation bucket(for the upkeep off the birds)lol
All his birds looked well but i didnt notice any water, also a rope barrier was all that was in place about 1 foot high.


He is no longer there but a few weeks ago a new chap has arrived with a barn owl a red tail and an eagle owl also taking pics and also had donation bucket, from kirkintilock falconry i believe, his barn owl looked very under weight for a female he said it was 10oz, he had some old photocopied bits of paper saying about the birds.

If this is the future of falconry then we really are in trouble:twisted:

[Yarak1]

I was at a local market (boot fair) in Ayr last summer and met a chap from the forum, Stephen i think his name was, he had around 10 birds with him including 2 HH a EEO i think a kestrel and a few others, and was taking pictures of anyone who wanted to hold his barn owl for £3, he also had a donation bucket(for the upkeep off the birds)lol
All his birds looked well but i didnt notice any water, also a rope barrier was all that was in place about 1 foot high.


He is no longer there but a few weeks ago a new chap has arrived with a barn owl a red tail and an eagle owl also taking pics and also had donation bucket, from kirkintilock falconry i believe, his barn owl looked very under weight for a female he said it was 10oz, he had some old photocopied bits of paper saying about the birds.

If this is the future of falconry then we really are in trouble:twisted:

Exactly right mate.............

[AngelJakki]

If this is the future of falconry then we really are in trouble:twisted:

But this isn't falconry. It has nothing to do with it. This is incompetent people using the poor bops to get money and thats the only reason for it not for the love of the birds or falconry it has to be stopped.

[Adam Barrett]

But this isn't falconry. It has nothing to do with it. This is incompetent people using the poor bops to get money and thats the only reason for it not for the love of the birds or falconry it has to be stopped.

I agree it is not falconry,but it still reflects our sport in a poor light.
Yours,Adam

[Hobby]

But this isn't falconry. It has nothing to do with it. This is incompetent people using the poor bops to get money and thats the only reason for it not for the love of the birds or falconry it has to be stopped.Like it or not ,this will be the public face of Falconry unless something can be done.We will be percieved only as good as our worst practitioner.

[Yarak1]

But this isn't falconry. It has nothing to do with it. This is incompetent people using the poor bops to get money and thats the only reason for it not for the love of the birds or falconry it has to be stopped.

You are right Angeljakki it isn't falconry and never has been.................But this is what the public first see, *****s with birds in High streets and market places...........They are told that the handlers are Falconers so they assume that this is what falconry is all about......................

[Yarak1]

I am working inside of Powderham Castle this year, doing display work.............these will be educational putting across to the public that Bop's are not pets..that displays are nothing to do with Falconry..........that anyone thinking of taking on a bop should be aware of all the pitfalls that can happen and that the flying of these birds is the icing on the cake.................. if we obtain 4 day courses from this from the right people with the right lifestyle and environment who want to come into falconry then we will have done our job..........they will come into falconry on the right footing...Others without the right lifestyle , environment etc: will be told no..........
No member of the public will be able to get close to the birds or handle them................there will be no gimmicks such as tunnels of people for birds to fly through or falcons being flown between outstretched legs............ this will be all about awareness of what bop's are all about..and awareness of what falconry in the true sense entails..........
The birds will all be in an open air environment ( not shopping Malls / market places).........they will all have proper shading and baths/drinking water at all times will be provided..........Barriers will be in place at all times so no public contact at all................Public liability of £5million.....2 falconers in attendance at all times..........No donation buckets ......................

The money made from this will barely cover wages and fuel but that is not the basis of the work there.......it is to hopefully educate the public in the right way to get them onside..........
The castle and grounds are superb and this is the type of environment where any type of display should be whether static or flying ...........not in a busy commercial shopping centre/market place.......... I hope that this will give people the right impression of Falconers and Falconry.
www.powderham.co.uk

[FlameHairedFalconer]

I am working inside of Powderham Castle this year, display work and Hawk walks.............these will be educational putting across to the public that Bop's are not pets..that displays are nothing to do with Falconry..........that anyone thinking of taking on a bop should be aware of all the pitfalls that can happen and that the flying of these birds is the icing on the cake.................. if we obtain 4 day courses from this from the right people with the right lifestyle and environment who want to come into falconry then we will have done our job..........they will come into falconry on the right footing...
No member of the public will be able to get close to the birds or handle them................there will be no gimmicks such as tunnels of people for birds to fly through or falcons being flown between outstretched legs............ this will be all about awareness of what bop's are all about..and awareness of what falconry in the true sense entails..........
The birds will all be in an open air environment ( not shopping Malls / market places).........they will all have proper shading and baths/drinking water at all times will be provided..........Barriers will be in place at all times so no public contact at all................Public liability of £5million.....2 falconers in attendance at all times..........No donation buckets ......................

The money made from this will barely cover wages and fuel but that is not the basis of the work there.......it is to hopefully educate the public in the right way to get them onside..........
The castle and grounds are superb and this is the type of environment where any type of display should be wheter static or flying ...........not in a busy commercial shopping centre/market place..........
www.powderham.co.uk (http://www.powderham.co.uk)

Yarak1

This is the sort of attitude that is needed....not the 'Well its a business and I cant afford not to' in relation to falconry. I know that this will **** Varmint off, but my personal opinion is that if you cant make your business work without prostituting your hawks and falcons around the local shopping centre then you seriously need to re examine your business plan.

I made the choice many years ago, in that I could see that a falconry business would not be viable for me. So I went to work in another capacity. I now make enough money to ensure my hawks are well kept and I can enjoy my sport.

Like it or not, those of us who practice falconry as, for want of a better word, a hobby, have a vested interest in what those who call themselves 'professionals' do and the public perception of it. It will reflect on us all in the end.

FHF

[Yarak1]

Yarak1

This is the sort of attitude that is needed....not the 'Well its a business and I cant afford not to' in relation to falconry. I know that this will **** Varmint off, but my personal opinion is that if you cant make your business work without prostituting your hawks and falcons around the local shopping centre then you seriously need to re examine your business plan.

I made the choice many years ago, in that I could see that a falconry business would not be viable for me. So I went to work in another capacity. I now make enough money to ensure my hawks are well kept and I can enjoy my sport.

Like it or not, those of us who practice falconry as, for want of a better word, a hobby, have a vested interest in what those who call themselves 'professionals' do and the public perception of it. It will reflect on us all in the end.

FHF

Thank you fhf.............my centre holds it's own and pays it's own way............At this venue we are wanting to show birds that are well looked after, Falconers as responsible people and falconry in it's true colours to take away the stigma attached to it by the ignorance of a few...........

Cheers, John.

[Varmint]

FHF, your comments are very valid and in no way **** me off, i agree to be honest and hate it (but then i only do it for 2 weeks a year, each christmas), but sadly i also have to compete against the photo keepers and collection bucket brigade, all "self proclaim" that they have the best falconry centers, so i do what i must.
If th epublic percieved what i do to be immoral or in bad taste i think i would have been out of work years ago, and by the very virtue of these laws of industry, im still doing it! I see them come and go every few years, the wanna be's and dreamers who do nothing more than cheapen the profession and spoil the industry.

I do what i must to keep employed, as do you?

You are a lawyer i believe FHF?, and i think we all know the public perception of them!;):)

It's a common "Americanism" to refer to people in your profession as "Blood sucking para......" Quite a paradox dont you think?:) LOL

This is all good fun, im biteing like rotweiller! but i dont see what it has to do with thread?

[Graham Stuart]

I am working inside of Powderham Castle this year, doing display work.............these will be educational putting across to the public that Bop's are not pets..that displays are nothing to do with Falconry..........that anyone thinking of taking on a bop should be aware of all the pitfalls that can happen and that the flying of these birds is the icing on the cake.................. if we obtain 4 day courses from this from the right people with the right lifestyle and environment who want to come into falconry then we will have done our job..........they will come into falconry on the right footing...Others without the right lifestyle , environment etc: will be told no..........
No member of the public will be able to get close to the birds or handle them................there will be no gimmicks such as tunnels of people for birds to fly through or falcons being flown between outstretched legs............ this will be all about awareness of what bop's are all about..and awareness of what falconry in the true sense entails..........
The birds will all be in an open air environment ( not shopping Malls / market places).........they will all have proper shading and baths/drinking water at all times will be provided..........Barriers will be in place at all times so no public contact at all................Public liability of £5million.....2 falconers in attendance at all times..........No donation buckets ......................

The money made from this will barely cover wages and fuel but that is not the basis of the work there.......it is to hopefully educate the public in the right way to get them onside..........
The castle and grounds are superb and this is the type of environment where any type of display should be whether static or flying ...........not in a busy commercial shopping centre/market place.......... I hope that this will give people the right impression of Falconers and Falconry.
www.powderham.co.uk (http://www.powderham.co.uk)


Very well put mate:yawinkle:

[Yarak1]

Very well put mate:yawinkle:

Hi Barney..thanks mate....

[FlameHairedFalconer]

[quote=Varmint]

You are a lawyer i believe FHF?, and i think we all know the public perception of them!;):)

It's a common "Americanism" to refer to people in your profession as "Blood sucking para......" Quite a paradox dont you think?:) LOL
[quote]

Completely off topic....At least the public perception of my profession cannot reflect on any amateurs as there aren't any. Nor does it reflect on my hobbies.

When others in my profession misbehave they are struck off. I see no such parallel in falconry.

Peoples perception of the law relates to their experiences, if it works for them its great, if it doesnt then we are all vampires. Funnily enough there appears to be some sort of parallel with falconry there though! :rolleyes:

FHF

[Yarak1]

[quote=Varmint]

You are a lawyer i believe FHF?, and i think we all know the public perception of them!;):)

It's a common "Americanism" to refer to people in your profession as "Blood sucking para......" Quite a paradox dont you think?:) LOL
[quote]

Completely off topic....At least the public perception of my profession cannot reflect on any amateurs as there aren't any. Nor does it reflect on my hobbies.

When others in my profession misbehave they are struck off. I see no such parallel in falconry.

Peoples perception of the law relates to their experiences, if it works for them its great, if it doesnt then we are all vampires. Funnily enough there appears to be some sort of parallel with falconry there though! :rolleyes:

FHF
FHF I agree with you........totally off topic............

[FlameHairedFalconer]

FHF I agree with you........totally off topic............

;) :rolleyes:

FHF

[Yarak1]

QUOTE / Varmint.....FHF, your comments are very valid and in no way **** me off, i agree to be honest and hate it (but then i only do it for 2 weeks a year, each christmas), but sadly i also have to compete against the photo keepers and collection bucket brigade, all "self proclaim" that they have the best falconry centers, so i do what i must.


If you hate it so much then why do it?......................

[BFG]

:confused:

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

QUOTE / Varmint.....FHF, your comments are very valid and in no way **** me off, i agree to be honest and hate it (but then i only do it for 2 weeks a year, each christmas), but sadly i also have to compete against the photo keepers and collection bucket brigade, all "self proclaim" that they have the best falconry centers, so i do what i must.


If you hate it so much then why do it?......................
Money.

[Merger]

Come on lads ,you have started again, can we not for one minute all agree to agree on at least one thing ,NOT to pass over EAGLES to hold, for any reason, to children, at least, under 14 years of age! or anyone for that matter that you dont see capable, does this make sense,if you remember the original thread, agreed or not.

[Yarak1]

Come on lads ,you have started again, can we not for one minute all agree to agree on at least one thing ,NOT to pass over EAGLES to hold, for any reason, to children, at least, under 14 years of age! or anyone for that matter that you dont see capable, does this make sense,if you remember the original thread, agreed or not.

Totally agree................but also the birds should have never been in that environment at all..ever..........

[CoyoteOutlaw]

Come on lads ,you have started again, can we not for one minute all agree to agree on at least one thing ,NOT to pass over EAGLES to hold, for any reason, to children, at least, under 14 years of age! or anyone for that matter that you dont see capable, does this make sense,if you remember the original thread, agreed or not.

I think it is the only thing that will be agreed upon! :P

[Graham Stuart]

I was at a local market (boot fair) in Ayr last summer and met a chap from the forum, Stephen i think his name was, he had around 10 birds with him including 2 HH a EEO i think a kestrel and a few others, and was taking pictures of anyone who wanted to hold his barn owl for £3, he also had a donation bucket(for the upkeep off the birds)lol
All his birds looked well but i didnt notice any water, also a rope barrier was all that was in place about 1 foot high.


He is no longer there but a few weeks ago a new chap has arrived with a barn owl a red tail and an eagle owl also taking pics and also had donation bucket, from kirkintilock falconry i believe, his barn owl looked very under weight for a female he said it was 10oz, he had some old photocopied bits of paper saying about the birds.

If this is the future of falconry then we really are in trouble:twisted:


True True:yawinkle:

[Renton]

Come on lads ,you have started again, can we not for one minute all agree to agree on at least one thing ,NOT to pass over EAGLES to hold, for any reason, to children, at least, under 14 years of age! or anyone for that matter that you dont see capable, does this make sense,if you remember the original thread, agreed or not.

You could also mention Eagle Owls, Redtails or even a Southern or Northern White Faced Owl within the same situation. A first timer handling birds under controlled circumstances, i.e. an experience day at a reputable centre is a world away from Joe Public holding a bird for the first time in a shopping centre!

[Kumben]

Varmint, you asked who the person was who was doing the display at the Game Fair, where the eagle bated at the child's fluffy toy.

Well Varmint, all praise to YOU because it was YOU and your guys who had things right.

Thank you. There is only one way and that's the right way. J