lost in france

[Chivers]

hi
anyone out there with advice how to deal with French red tape as i have a dossier the size of War & Peace and all i want to do is fly my Harris!!

[Fraser1203]

Have just moved to France - Brittany - where abouts are you?

[Barry]

We need Geneva bloke to answer this one. He is Swiss and lives in France. He is slowly ticking the boxes he needs and jumping through the right hoops to allow him to take up a bird. If anyone can help you he will..

Barry.

[Kentish Falconry]

Hi M8, as I said earlier I have a friend who is a senior Police Officer he will help you with the Red Tape etc and tell you how to go about it.
PM me and I will give you the details
ATB
Terry:supz:

[GenevaBloke]

Hi Chivers,

I can't disappoint Barry on this one.
I am going through the process of getting all the necessary authorisations to fly a bird in France myself. Makes me realise the kind of falconer's heaven the UK is in that respect. Regarding War & Peace, me it looks more like Tolstoi's complete works!

The law changed recently (August 2004, if I remember well). I will put together a post with all the necessary links a bit later (I hope you read french... :wink: ).

The basic principle is as follows:
1) First you need to pass the french "hunting permit". That's 2 or 3 theory sessions, followed by an theory exam, and a practical exam. It can be passed within a year (sessions are usually before the hunting season begins, so if I were you I would try to apply asap). For that you need to talk to the Hunter's Federation of your "Département" of residence. Under the new law, you are apparently not allowed to have or fly birds for anything else than hunting game (at least in principle and for the paperwork), which is why this is a mandatory step in the process. The theory questions are geared towards firearms and the necessary security rules, hunting law and regulations and knowledge of the game species. The practical exam is geared (or at least was when I passed it 3 years ago) towards safety with firearms only.

2) The second step is to apply to the "DDAF" (stands for "Direction Départementale de l'Agriculture et des Forêts", = Direction of Agriculture and Forestry) of your "Département" of residence for the authorisation to have up to 6 birds of prey (For more than 6 birds, you need to apply for a Certificate of Capacity usually delivered to people who breed bops (or any other kind of animal), and it's a whole different and even more complicated ballgame). Again, I will give you links to the proper forms, which are available online.
They go rather in depth in this application form and ask the following, among others: where you acquired the experience and knowledge to take care of bops, where and what you intend to hawk, etc... You are supposed to submit a description of the bird's accomodation (or a plan if it is not built yet, which is what they encourage you to do, as it is easier for you to modify a plan than an existing building, should they want you to do so). They can send people from the "Office National de la Chasse" to check on the premises. One nice fact is that they have 2 months to answer to you with changes or a refusal, or the application is considered as "tacitely accepted". 2 months being short for any administration, I have been advised to send my application just before summer...:yawinkle:

3) Now you can fly your bird! But if you want to hunt quarry, you need to secure some hunting grounds. Each village ("Commune") has its hunters society, which manages all forms of hunting on the land around the village. As a resident of a "Commune", you have the right to be a member of the local hunter's society. Membership in neighboring "communes" may be restricted and will be more expensive. With a Harris hawk, maybe just your "commune" of residence will do...

No wonder why the number of falconers in France is believed to be only around 250...

I come back later with more.

Good luck with the whole process.

Jan

PS: By the way, in what area are you located in France?

[Chivers]

Have just moved to France - Brittany - where abouts are you?

Living down south in the 04 in Provence...ideal terrain for flying, but i guess that will have to wait as the dossier takes up to a year i'm told!

[Chivers]

Hi Geneva Bloke, thanks for the long reply; i am down in the 04 in provence, and am currently ploughing through the paperwork; what i need to know is the 'safe and sure' method of filling in the forms, ie if private use etc speeds things up. Also, i can't seem to get the answer as to whether an application in one department applies to another if i move, or if the whole process restarts!! Also, my ideal would be to bring birds in from the UK as i have yet to find a reasonable breeder with suitable credentials (without having to pursue courses etc and then pay to my mind OTT prices. I would also like to tie up with some / any of those falconers, especially locally...my neighbour is the Maire, and he is a hunter but believes falconry is illegal!! Great
Ian ps and you are where in France?? Oh and yes i do read French!!
.
[/QUOTE]

[GenevaBloke]

Hi Chivers,

Good thing you speak / read french, as none of the laws, forms or exams are translated in any way...
I will try to give you my comment on your different points:
- I wish I knew of a "safe and sure" method of getting through the process...
Mentioning any previous experience in the UK, success at hunting your bird is for sure a big plus compared to a complete beginner.
- Regarding the question whether the authorisation is valid for one Departement only or the whole territory... the only indication I found was in the "Circulaire" from the Ministry (Circulaire DNP/CFF No 2005-03 dated 17.05.2005. If you don't have it or can't find it, let me know), where it says that the authorisation must mention the adress where the birds are kept, on top of the fact that it is the Departement's Prefecture that issues the authorisation... so I am afraid that you need a new one if you move in France. I assume that if the reason for a new application is just a move, the authorisation is easy to (re-)obtain, especially as the Office de la Chasse doing the on-site verifications is a national authority.
- The only "recognized" falconers club is the ANFA (www.anfa.net). Membership of the ANFA would make things a lot easier... but you need two referals to apply for membership. I guess the easiest way to get in is to contact them directly. Alternatively, a guy had posted on a french-speaking forum (http://fauconnerie.forumactif.com) a copy of the list of the regional representatives (quite certainly without the ANFA's authorisation), a few months ago and the representative for the departements in Provence is named Jean-Pierre Rosé, tel 04 90 31 38 25. I don't know the guy at all, but you can always try,
Also, this forum that I mention has a member list with the location of the members.
- Bringing in birds from the UK should be no problem, as long as the CITES regulations are respected. I assume that you need an import permit in France and an export permit in the UK... but this is something that I haven't digged in too much yet.
- Regarding the Maire in your place... well it's one example amongst so many. Hunting in France is a big thing, but the vast majority of hunters use a firearm... and the rest is rather anecdotic if known at all! I explained for one hour to a hunter who is also my neighbours what I intended to do and how the "Chasse au vol" worked. He listened to me carefuly and finally said... "I see, but... when do you shoot?". Hopeless...:)
I am in Sciez, Haute-Savoie (close to Thonon). Not the best Harris hawk ground as there is NO rabbit around and very few hares... I'm thinking of going after crows with a male goshawk. Not the typical beginner bird, but I have to adapt to what the place offers.

[Chivers]

hi again, and thanx for the info/time spent replying. I have contacted ANPA and am awaiting a reply; i will certainly follow up your lead on the french forum. I have been living in France for 15 years and so am aware of the vagaries of the fonctionnaire, but my dossier (supplied by the departmental veterinary body) appears to be both out of date, and frankly incorrect!! I am going to take the permis de chasse (irony irony...like i really want to wave a shot gun about). My issue with the departments is that i may well relocate to a new house with private land for flying purposes...do you know anything about the issue of land ownership for hunting...private land is ok as far as i know, but is there a minimum requirement?? I shall be on the phone to the DDAF tomorrow and will let you know how it goes. One other thing, any links to a listing of registered falconers by department, or availability of listings of avian vets would be nice. I can but ask!!
Cheers

[Varmint]

I would like to add a funny story about my experiences with French red tape if i may?

I was asked to perform with my birds at the French National Game Fair at Chateau Chambord near Blois (sorry about spelling)

This was back around 1998/1999?

Article 10 documents had just come out as i recall.

I observed all relevant EEc reg regarding travelling to another member state country with the birds and carried out all of the requirements of the time like blood samples ect.

We had been there 2 days when a deputation of French Wildlife Police arrived at my static display and proceeded to try to arrest me for displaying indegenouse species??

As you might imagine i was very shocked, but quickly thought about my Article 10 docs, and the fact that they said that each species could be displayed for commercial purposes?

I showed them these, they then promptly called their superior officers over, who the called theirs over ect, ect until finally i had nearly 25 officers there all looking over the docs??

Folks were walking past like it was a major drugs bust or something?:)

They had never seen an article 10 before, and as it was an EU document it superceded their local laws!

After a brief official salute they left without another word.

Later that evening, after a very, very busy fair (45,000 people a day) the organiser of the fair hosted a cocktail party to which i was invited.

I got chatting to one of the officers i had met earlier in the day, and he informed me that the local professional falconer who normally did the show felt his nose had been put out of joint by us being there, so had informed them on what he thought was the law, and tried to get us collered??

Thankfully it all went ok in the end, so much so that we invited to perform again the following year!

And we are now good friends also with the French Pro in question!

Fantastic place to hunt in Chambord, but sadly the presidential hunting preserve!! (less one presidential rabbit lol)

[Chivers]

What can I say! Your experience sums it all up. Nice one. And as you say, what a beautiful setting to fly in.

[Chivers]

Hi again Geneva Bloke
Been dealing with the DDAF who have been consumately unhelpful...you mentioned in your first letter that you had some links to the DDAF to download DUT demands etc..could you post them up? And any links you have.
Have also been in touch with ANFA rep in Provence who is now retired..but still helpful (it's all very cloak & dagger, n'est-ce pas?) so am awaiting letter from him...all will be revealed!!

Cheers..from the Chiver

[GenevaBloke]

Chivers,

Sorry for your lack of success with the DDAF... There are so few falconers in France, and the current law is so new that you are almost certainly the first to ask them a question related to falconry... And as this is handled by local authorities, you cannot rely on the experiences of others elsewhere in France.

So here we go (finally!) with the links:
First, the new law:
http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/imagesJOE/2004/0925/joe_20040925_0224_0026.pdf

Some explanations from the "ONCFS":
http://www.oncfs.gouv.fr/events/droit_jurisprudence/chasse_vol.pdf
http://www.oncfs.gouv.fr/events/droit_jurisprudence/Depliant_Faune_protegee.pdf
http://www.oncfs.gouv.fr/events/droit_jurisprudence/Elevages_et_detention_par_particulier.pdf

And the "CERFA" forms to be found on
http://www.cerfa.gouv.fr/cerfa/vigueur.nsf/HomePart?OpenForm
are referenced:
N° 12447*01 (Application)
N° 12446*01 (Declaration of bird identification)
N° 12448*01 (Registry of birds)

...and last but not least, the circular DNP/CFF 2005-03 (guidelines from the Ministry to the Prefets)
http://www.ecologie.gouv.fr/IMG/pdf/circulairechasseauvol.pdf

That's about it :rolleyes:
...but I'm sure that I am missing some. Happy to know that your are looking into getting some private land: that's one part of the headache that you won't have to worry about!

Good luck,

Jan

[Sparrie]

Hi Jan.

Glad to see you got on at last. Gary here, Remember me, I volunteer for Barry at Cluny. Looks like you are doing a good job giving people a helping hand. I hear you are getting yourself a Goshawk.

Gary.

[GenevaBloke]

Hi Gary,

Of course I remember you, nice to hear from you!

The plan is to get a goshawk, yes, but not before next year (as I am still in the process of getting all the paperwork done, as you can read).

I hope I can do a good job with the bird, too, not just giving internet links... :yawinkle:
Going from the "spectator" role to training my own bird is going to be a big step, but I'm really looking forward to it.

Take care,

Jan

[Degadar]

Find the local mayor or mayoress and invite them over for aperitifs. Ask them about their children and be all interested in his 2CV. And speak french, and pretend not to be english.

Deg.


hi
anyone out there with advice how to deal with French red tape as i have a dossier the size of War & Peace and all i want to do is fly my Harris!!

[GenevaBloke]

Find the local mayor or mayoress and invite them over for aperitifs. Ask them about their children and be all interested in his 2CV.

Always a good idea. It may not be enough for the necessary authorisation, but it won't hurt.

oh, and they drive Twingos these days :lol:

Jan

[Chivers]

Hi Jan

Just to let you know that i'm off to the DDAF tomorrow armed with my downloads, and then off to meet the respected ANFA rep for Provence (retired!) in Avignon. Hopefully the timing and info will be right, and we can get moving soon.
ps our misinformed mayor (ie falconry is illegal, son, here we just catch thrush with sticky branches (no sexual innuendo intended!!)) is a true patriot: he drives a German motor (and is probably allergic to pastis)
Cheers
Ian

[Tim Laycock]

(ie falconry is illegal, son, here we just catch thrush with sticky branches (no sexual innuendo intended!!))

ROFPMSL :!: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[BlackShaheen10]

Hi Ian,

I am a fench falconer/austringer. I live in the suburb of Paris but I think that I can help you in your falconry paperwork. Send me your phone number by PM, it will be easier. Do you speak french? :-D

Regards,
Youcef