Natural Hybrids In Uk

[Bernard]

anyone know of any natural hybrids in the wild in uk
two years ago i found a male redtail that had paired up with a common buzzard i went back last week to see if they had paired up this year and they have. last year they raised 4 young dont know how many this year wont know until they are at brancher stage will keep you informed

[Pink_Eagle]

havnt heard of any wild natural pairings, but at a centre i used to work at a american great horned and african spotted, breed and produced young

buzzard x red, wonder what it would be like? can u get pics this year of the parents and young?

[Red-Devil]

anyone know of any natural hybrids in the wild in uk
two years ago i found a male redtail that had paired up with a common buzzard i went back last week to see if they had paired up this year and they have. last year they raised 4 young dont know how many this year wont know until they are at brancher stage will keep you informed
why did you not inform some one last year this sort of thing cant go one as it will lead to bad press you must stop this some how contact defra ,get help

[SnakeHuts]

DEFRA are aware of two recent instances of attempted hybrisation in peregrine falcons, both failed.

one was a hybrid , paired to a wild peregrine. The hybrid was killed in a cliff fall and the other produced infertile eggs.

So both failed.

The wild hybridisation should be stopped if possible

[SSL]

anyone know of any natural hybrids in the wild in uk
two years ago i found a male redtail that had paired up with a common buzzard i went back last week to see if they had paired up this year and they have. last year they raised 4 young dont know how many this year wont know until they are at brancher stage will keep you informed

That Redtail needs removing along with any young or eggs.

As has been said get some help.

[Nemesis]

That Redtail needs removing along with any young or eggs.

As has been said get some help.
Is this not the way all bop evolved by interbreading and changing to get to were thay are now and there for should be left alone just another step on the ladder /dave

[Merger]

I have heard of this a couple of times,and definetly must not be allowed to sucseed, this is pure anti fuel!! a slightly larger footed aggresive buteo is the last thing we need in the British Isles, this is positive reinforcment, for those seeking at least a ban on hybrids, and if poss, exotics bieng realesed daily in the uk, this has been disscused before, only proof was needed!!

[Parahawker]

RT's have been breeding with common buzzards for like.. YEARS

together with the Goshawks (non native hybrids)

You could ask for a take permit for ALL wild goshawks as there non-native

Why the sudden shock of.. "oh no.. we must do something"..

Your all too late.. so why mention it..

[Parahawker]

I have heard of this a couple of times,and definetly must not be allowed to sucseed, this is pure anti fuel!! a slightly larger footed aggresive buteo is the last thing we need in the British Isles, this is positive reinforcment, for those seeking at least a ban on hybrids, and if poss, exotics bieng realesed daily in the uk, this has been disscused before, only proof was needed!!


www.falconryforum.co.uk... (or rather its members)

Now thats pure Anti fuel...

[Bernard]

who is going to remove any other hybrids in this country about 60% of the goshawks are xbreeds if you remave the eggs or young what would you do with them. why hasnt the person who lost the bird made a bigger effort to re-capture it.

[HawkMan69UK]

im might be confused but goshawk crossbred with what:roll: :rolleyes:

[Parahawker]

im might be confused but goshawk crossbred with what:roll: :rolleyes:

who else imported Goshawks when they became EXTINCT in the UK
(the RSPB's words)

[Matthew Patching]

when talking about goshawks if you mean finnish cross german then they are not realy a hybrid at all as they are both northern goshawks (accipiter gentilis) despite what the latest edition of the ibr might indicate, as for redtailxcommon, i flew one of these years ago, it isnt a very good hybrid from a falconry point of view, the one i flew was a female and her flying weight was only 2lb and she had feet like a male redtail, so i cant see what harm them breeding in the wild will do!!!!! after all we have a breeding population of big cats and oh lets not forget the now resident population of european eagle owls. just my oppinion.:)

[Parahawker]

when talking about goshawks if you mean finnish cross german then they are not realy a hybrid at all as they are both northern goshawks (accipiter gentilis) despite what the latest edition of the ibr might indicate, as for redtailxcommon, i flew one of these years ago, it isnt a very good hybrid from a falconry point of view, the one i flew was a female and her flying weight was only 2lb and she had feet like a male redtail, so i cant see what harm them breeding in the wild will do!!!!! after all we have a breeding population of big cats and oh lets not forget the now resident population of european eagle owls. just my oppinion.:)

It comes under the non native hybrid debate

where all those who kicked up a fuss about those flying hybrids.. were infact all flying non native peregrines..

But its a fine line.. the US was repopulated with Macropus at one stage
during an official release programe

[Kevin Massey]

Is this not the way all bop evolved by interbreading and changing to get to were thay are now and there for should be left alone just another step on the ladder /dave

i dissagree....lost falconry birds such as the redtail breeding in the wild will be a factor against falconry in the uk...thus i-m-o an issue that does need sorting out

[Nemesis]

i dissagree....lost falconry birds such as the redtail breeding in the wild will be a factor against falconry in the uk...thus i-m-o an issue that does need sorting out

hi kev natural cross breading takes place all over the world were new birds are introduced and get free thay dont catch them or kill them because of it to me it is just the next step in the evelushion lader no one put the together
thay chose each other natural there are lots of cross breads out there this is just one more pair /dave

[SSL]

hi kev natural cross breading takes place all over the world were new birds are introduced and get free thay dont catch them or kill them because of it to me it is just the next step in the evelushion lader no one put the together
thay chose each other natural there are lots of cross breads out there this is just one more pair /dave

Hi Nemesis, its illegal, its not evolution, evolution is natural selection, a CB x Redtail its the interference of man and look how that normall ends up.

All non-native species breeding (in the wild) within this country should be removed hybrids or not.

[SSL]

Marcus I think you'll find Accipiter Gentilis is a native species, no matter if its accent is Finnish, German or Hungarian.

Steve.

[StormRider]

Hi Nemesis, its illegal, its not evolution, evolution is natural selection, a CB x Redtail its the interference of man and look how that normall ends up.

All non-native species breeding (in the wild) within this country should be removed hybrids or not.
It is only illegal if deliberately done. You cannot prosecute birds for having a shag.
STU

[SSL]

It is only illegal if deliberately done. You cannot prosecute birds for having a shag.
STU

So the Redtail flew here himself did he? Not a lost Falconry bird never recovered?

The Redtail doesnt want prosecuting (the orignal owner maybe) its wants removing along with eggs or young.

Steve.

[StormRider]

Sorry Steven I think you have the wrong idea here, or atleast missed the point. As I said it is only an offence if you deliberately release a non indigeneous bird into the wild. Who is to say that the bird did not escape?
Dont get me wrong, I am a purest when it comes to my own personal birds. I dont like hybrids for the exact reasons of the feelings on this thread, but the job is done now and there is nowt we can do about it. I do think that in these circumstances, when two seperate species seek each other out and bond and then mate, we are talking about evolution.
STU

[Nemesis]

Hi steve when I said natural selection I ment that the birds choise was there,sno one out them in a cage and but for a acident it whould not have hapend man has brought birds into this country since time and ships were invented all the birds you see are not natural to this contry just here for so long we take it for granted and yes it should not have hapend but it did life will find a way to evolve and change with or with out man,s help that is why we have so many diffrent spices as in all thing,s just my view live and let live
/dave good thred though make,s you think:supz:

[SSL]

Sorry Steven I think you have the wrong idea here, or atleast missed the point. As I said it is only an offence if you deliberately release a non indigeneous bird into the wild. Who is to say that the bird did not escape?
Dont get me wrong, I am a purest when it comes to my own personal birds. I dont like hybrids for the exact reasons of the feelings on this thread, but the job is done now and there is nowt we can do about it. I do think that in these circumstances, when two seperate species seek each other out and bond and then mate, we are talking about evolution.
STU

Hi Stu,

Escaped, lost whislt flying or intentionally released. It matters little to me that Redtail and any young and or eggs ought to be removed.

Its not evolution, as in natural selection, without the hand of man it wouldnt have occured.

Regards,
Steve.

[SSL]

Hi steve when I said natural selection I ment that the birds choise was there,sno one out them in a cage and but for a acident it whould not have hapend man has brought birds into this country since time and ships were invented all the birds you see are not natural to this contry just here for so long we take it for granted and yes it should not have hapend but it did life will find a way to evolve and change with or with out man,s help that is why we have so many diffrent spices as in all thing,s just my view live and let live
/dave good thred though make,s you think:supz:

The last thing you want is a stronger, more aggressive species breeding in our countryside in my opinion.

If you need examples look at Grey Squirrels and the American Mink.

Steve.

[Nemesis]

The last thing you want is a stronger, more aggressive species breeding in our countryside in my opinion.

If you need examples look at Grey Squirrels and the American Mink.

Steve.
Hi steveI I get the point you are making but it would take a long time for there to be a significant change, if eney thay are one pair and it might never happen with others again and the young if eney will be water,d down redtail,s
slightly more aggressive buzzard but still a bop / Dave

[SSL]

Hi steveI I get the point you are making but it would take a long time for there to be a significant change, if eney thay are one pair and it might never happen with others again and the young if eney will be water,d down redtail,s
slightly more aggressive buzzard but still a bop / Dave

Hi Nemesis.

So would you mind losing the Common Buzzard? Everthing has to start somewhere mate.

[Kevin Massey]

So the Redtail flew here himself did he? Not a lost Falconry bird never recovered?

The Redtail doesnt want prosecuting (the orignal owner maybe) its wants removing along with eggs or young.

Steve.

Agree and i know its harsh being falconers....but a known breeding (or rouge loose) hawk...that can not be recovered in any way....should be taken out of the eqation

[Matthew Patching]

The last thing you want is a stronger, more aggressive species breeding in our countryside in my opinion.

If you need examples look at Grey Squirrels and the American Mink.

Steve.

Live and let live, we could all say the same about rabbits and pheasants and grey partride or red legs man all brought them here, the brown rat, the house sparrow, the house mouse, the red kites that came from germany, the sea eagles that came from norway, the large flocks of parakeets that fly around hampshire and surrey, All these are interlopers and we tolerate them as stated before this hybrid deosnt actualy produce a souped up common buzzard It just makes them abit bigger, and when you think the young of these birds are going to go and find other commons to mate with then the distinction will be even less aparrent, all this deos is widen the gene pool. and when you think that the common has just taken over the spot of most numerous bird of prey in britain and you look back 50 years and see how many breeding pairs there were then widening the gene pool wouldnt be a bad idea.

Just my thoughts
ME:)

[Nemesis]

Hi Nemesis.

So would you mind losing the Common Buzzard? Everthing has to start somewhere mate.
hi steve if you look at the amount of buzzards out there in comparisn to free redtails with witch thay can mate the likelyhood of that is almost like me winning the lottery and dont buy a ticket take a walk down the road and ask the public what indigenous bop live in this country and I dought if thay can tell you let alone care to most it is something you see if lucky when you go for a walk and thay are all kestrals change come,s to all things good or bad
all the best /dave

[SSL]

Live and let live, we could all say the same about rabbits and pheasants and grey partride or red legs

Me and my hawk are doing our best but the ******s keep breeding :supz:

Steve.

[SSL]

hi steve if you look at the amount of buzzards out there in comparisn to free redtails with witch thay can mate the likelyhood of that is almost like me winning the lottery and dont buy a ticket take a walk down the road and ask the public what indigenous bop live in this country and I dought if thay can tell you let alone care to most it is something you see if lucky when you go for a walk and thay are all kestrals change come,s to all things good or bad
all the best /dave

Hi Dave,

I dont really care about the public though, I know what a Common Buzzard is and I'd like my kids to know what one is and their kids and so on...

This hybrid at large, is bad for the sport, bad for the Common Buzzard and bad for the countryside.

Steve.

[GaryPCO]

Agree and i know its harsh being falconers....but a known breeding (or rouge loose) hawk...that can not be recovered in any way....should be taken out of the eqation
Agreed if i could not trap it humanely alive i would take it out,this may upset a few here if so im sorry,maybe you should have a read of the big book of natural history you might learn something positive.....

[Tim Laycock]

Agreed if i could not trap it humanely alive i would take it out,this may upset a few here if so im sorry,maybe you should have a read of the big book of natural history you might learn something positive.....

My sentiment entirely :!:

[Martyn Paterson]

This hybridization has unfortunately happened now. But don't you think that in a very short space of time in subsequent generations the blood from this initial pair will be diluted to almost nonexistence? ie.Without lots of other redtails to breed from they would have little impact on a wild population.

[Sandeep]

Guys Guys...

If you are flying birds not native to your country... You are bound to have cases of lost birds.... You should have checked this before even starting to import birds into your country... Today its a redtail... Tomorrow it will be a bonellis and then an African Crowned... If you stop importing or breeding birds alien to your country... You will have a fair chance of not having hibrids...

But most in the Forum have Harris, Redtails, Coopers, saker, Gyr x per, Gyr x saker, etc and scores of other birds not native to your country... I think its foolishness to think that you can seperate a pair and avoid hybrids....

YOU ARE FLYING HIBRIDS....:evil:

[Tim Laycock]

YOU ARE FLYING HIBRIDS....:evil:

I am not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :evil:

[Sandeep]

Hi Blackbird...

In that case I was not refring to you or anyone not flying hibrids... But you must agree that there are tons out there that fly hibrids... My mail was not intended to hurt anyone's sentiments.... Its just that I felt most guys fly hibrids and I have always been against it myself... Be it any BOP...:supz: :supz: :supz:

If its not a hibrid then it must be a bird not native to your country.... You can have a dog not native to your country... but as they are on a leash... you know that they will not breed outside... But with birds... Once on the wing... one can only hope they dont get lost... If you have a non native bird that flies of and is not located.... It will definitely try and breed... so why blame the bird and deprive it of its biological need.... Thats my queston...

[Jack Merlin]

RT's have been breeding with common buzzards for like.. YEARS

Why the sudden shock of.. "oh no.. we must do something"..

Your all too late.. so why mention it..

Marcus,

It is not years but DECADES!

I heard of a common buzzard pairing with a red tail near Edinburgh, Scotland, forty years ago! That incident was reported by a falconer who worked for the Edinburgh Natural History Museum and he knew his onions.

Some imports take off and multiply. Others, despite repeated introductions, never really make it. The law is sensible here and seeks to discourage certain imports that might become a pest species. Other than that, nature has a pretty efficient method of sorting things out. It is called natural selection.

But the law can also be an ass. It is, as a matter of interest, legal to release red leg partridges but illegal to release chukor, which is a similar species. The story behind that one is that it was all political. Some of those with power were breeding red legs for shooting when a rival set up to breed chukor. So the established breeders applied pressure and got the chukor banned. I have never heard the establishment's explanation of that one so the "abuse of power" theory for financial gain sounds logical.

[Tim Laycock]

Sandeep, I was only messin m8 :yawinkle: :lol:

[Hells99]

Me and my hawk are doing our best but the ******s keep breeding :supz:

Steve.
Must try harder... :lol:

[Sandeep]

Hi Blackbird...

:supz: :supz: :supz:

[Parahawker]

[QUOTE=Jack Merlin]Marcus,

It is not years but DECADES!

QUOTE]


LMAO.. Cheers..

[SnakeHuts]

So we know of the RT x CB, and the attempted Peregrine X' s does anyone know of anymore?

[Dougie Mc]

I know that about 5 years ago a rt breed with a commom buzzard near me and last year a pair of CB produced a youngster witch from the back you would have said it was a RT but from the frount it was a CB , the rest of the cluch were all CB's

Hybred

[Tim Laycock]

Nothing unusual about a light phase CB in a clutch

[Dougie Mc]

Blackbird please read my post again i said from the back it looked like a red tail eg the red tail not a cb tail

Hybred

[PlantBreeder]

So you want to destroy every non native species ?. Hum, just how do you
propose to eliminate the rabbit, or the pheasant ?.

The Gos is a native species, it did not simply die off, persecution by keepers
was the cause, so there is a very good case for bringing it back.

While we are at it, what about bringing back the other 'natives', like the
Bear, Wolf, Wild Boar.

The British countryside has long since ceased to be a 'natural' environment,
just consider how many plants now commonplace are in fact imports.

[Paul-Dennis]

So you want to destroy every non native species ?. Hum, just how do you
propose to eliminate the rabbit, or the pheasant ?.

The Gos is a native species, it did not simply die off, persecution by keepers
was the cause, so there is a very good case for bringing it back.

While we are at it, what about bringing back the other 'natives', like the
Bear, Wolf, Wild Boar.

The British countryside has long since ceased to be a 'natural' environment,
just consider how many plants now commonplace are in fact imports.also little owls are non native,grey tree rats,brown hare,red legs,ruddy duck,canada goose,mandarin duck i could go on all night but im off to bed now.............atb paul

[Falcon911]

This hybridization has unfortunately happened now. But don't you think that in a very short space of time in subsequent generations the blood from this initial pair will be diluted to almost nonexistence? ie.Without lots of other redtails to breed from they would have little impact on a wild population.

Absolutely, this is why after all these years we STILL dont have any significant signs of any hybridisation with any species in this country or anywhere else that I know of.......
The proof is already there!!

[AvianManagement]

who else imported Goshawks when they became EXTINCT in the UK
(the RSPB's words)

They were never extinct in the UK, there was always a several small scattered population

[PlantBreeder]

I think you hit the nail, Falcon 911 !!

Besides, the idea of genetic purity is a purely arbitrary human concept,
based upon the romantic dream of maintaining status quo, this is not
natural selection but stagnation, leading to extinction. This is aptly shown
by the ever increasing number of genetic defects showing up in pedigree
dogs.

Any variant / hybrid, however produced, will only prevail if it has an
improved chance of survival, and the ability to pass that advantage on to
the next generation. This is natural selection at work.

Put very simply, the more genes you 'throw into the pot', the greater the
chance that there will be any birds of prey, of any description, left on this
planet in the distant future.

Then again, if we can develop a specific Falconer's Hawk, that is clearly
not a wild species, then we may get round a lot of government red tape,
and stop the Anti's claim that we are somehow diminishing the wild stock.

[OtisTiercel]

Is this not the way all bop evolved by interbreading and changing to get to were thay are now and there for should be left alone just another step on the ladder /dave
No this is not the case its extremely complicated for me to go into now as I had to do a degree to learn it but that isnt really how evolution works in general but there are a lot of case studies and research that can explain all if you are interested.

[PlantBreeder]

O.K., I'm always very keen to learn new things. I have only worked in
genetics for the past 50 years, so I don't know much yet.

[HallBeck]

No this is not the case its extremely complicated for me to go into now as I had to do a degree to learn it but that isnt really how evolution works in general but there are a lot of case studies and research that can explain all if you are interested.

It wasn't what i thought either. Interbreeding is one way for new species to evolve - but as far as i am aware its not the most common way.

I thought that what tended to happen was that a genetic mutation took place in one individual that proved successful - it then spread quickly through the population. If this happened in isolation then a new species eveloved. If not in isolation the the species as a whole evolved.

[PlantBreeder]

Yes, Hallbeck, you are correct. This is what I referred to as a variant, but there are other factors. For example birds that are considered rare visitors,
or those blown here by gales. There is a slow trickle of new genes being added
to the wild stock all the time.

I have no intention of boring everyone on forum to death with a long drawn
out posting of technical jargon, merely to say that new genetic introductions
are good for the species.

[HallBeck]

.

I have no intention of boring everyone on forum to death with a long drawn
out posting of technical jargon, merely to say that new genetic introductions
are good for the species.

Not trying to get you into a long arguement - not that i feel that i have anywhere near enough knowl;edge to maintain such an argument!

But - i would suggest that there is a difference between the very occasional wind blown migrant pairing up with a near relative and the much larger numbers of lost falconry birds doing the same. The lost Harris Hawks and Redtails seem destined to be added to on an exponential basis - meaning that the issue will not so much be one of occasional injections of new genetic variation, but one of sustained alien gene injection potentailly leading to all sorts of outcomes.

We must also consider the political situation. Any non native falconry bird breeding in the wild - whether with another of its own species or with a native bird, is going to be a political stick to beat falconry with. I am afraid that even if the science doesn't back this up - it will still reflect badly on falconry.

Well thats what i think anyway! :)

[Steve.T]

i cant understand why someone living close to where this redtail is hasnt caught it up.

i would,or i would try to anyway, wish there was one near me or a harris would be better......;-);-):wink::wink:

[PlantBreeder]

I cannot think that many falconers are so careless, or so rich, as to lose
that many birds. Certainly not enough to make that much difference, so
it is just a question of degree. But considering the high mortality rate of
both adults and young, there can't be many that survive to breed.

I have to accept that you have a very good point on the political front.
I was talking of genetics, where you can apply common sense and logic,
but we all know that these things don't exist as far as politics are concerned.

However, I don't think many of us in the UK have much chance of waking
up one day to find our back lawn covered with a flock of Finnish Goshawks
like giant starlings. I'd be ecstatic to find just one.

[HallBeck]

I cannot think that many falconers are so careless, or so rich, as to lose
that many birds. Certainly not enough to make that much difference, so
it is just a question of degree. But considering the high mortality rate of
both adults and young, there can't be many that survive to breed.

I have to accept that you have a very good point on the political front.
I was talking of genetics, where you can apply common sense and logic,
but we all know that these things don't exist as far as politics are concerned.

However, I don't think many of us in the UK have much chance of waking
up one day to find our back lawn covered with a flock of Finnish Goshawks
like giant starlings. I'd be ecstatic to find just one.

To be honest - neither did i. Then i joined this forum and heard of how many Harris Hawks there are flying around with no one looking for them.

So whilst its unlikely that you will find a flock of Finnish Goshawks - a flock of Harris Hawks doesn't seem so far fetched!

[PlantBreeder]

O.K., I'm not too proud, a Harris would do me just fine, lead me to them.

I am interested in hybrids, and would be very tempted to try one.

[HallBeck]

O.K., I'm not too proud, a Harris would do me just fine, lead me to them.

I am interested in hybrids, and would be very tempted to try one.

Have a look in here - plenty of lost Harris Hawks!

http://www.falconryforum.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?s=&f=71&page=1&pp=20&sort=lastpost&order=desc&daysprune=30

[Hawkmaster]

i cant understand why someone living close to where this redtail is hasnt caught it up.
Because maybe it is not a Redtail at all:wink:

I have come across loads of falconers telling me they seen Redtails and they turned out to be a different colour phase of Common Buzzard or Honey Buzzard.

In fact I was recently called to a lost Ferruginous that turned out to be a VERY light Buzzard:wink:

[Moritz]

I have seen wild disabled buzzards that have a redish tail. does not make them a redtail.

One question that comes to mind is, how many red tails would we need to breed in the wild with buzzards to get a significant genetical change? the same goes for gyr/peres breeding with peregrines and gyr/saker breeding with pure sakers.

mo

[PlantBreeder]

Hi Mo,

Here is something to give you a vague idea.

Genetically, the domestic dog, say a Chihuahua, is 98% identical to

a Timber Wolf. The Human is only a few percent different from a

Lettuce. That small percentage makes a very big change.

So, if there were anywhere near as many wild hybrids as some folk

think it would be blindingly obvious.

Unless two species are very similar genetically they are not likely to

breed, and they have to be very very closely matched in order for the

offspring to be fertile, so close that one is probably just a subspecies

variant of the other, originally.


_____________________________

Never jump to conclusions ..... you might land up to your neck in muck.

[WhiteTail]

Unless two species are very similar genetically they are not likely to

breed, and they have to be very very closely matched in order for the

offspring to be fertile, so close that one is probably just a subspecies

variant of the other, originally.




I think the worry is more along the lines of public perception of how falconry has a negative impact on its native wildlife

The concept that Falconers & wild hacking accounts for a impressive number of Hybrids lost to the wilds is a worry

What is also worrying is the number of people breeding Hybrids in natural pairs with Pures

Example being that all these species are bred with peregrines

Luggers
Praires
Lanners
Sakers
Gyr
and hybrids of the above

& Perlins with Merlins

So we are proving that natural pairs are not only possible but we are confident in its results to pair them up together in the first place

Now its not the true scientific damage report that is the fear
Its the fact that the iconic peregrine still considered by most organisations to be the on the decline, will have its progress hampered by FALCONERS
who are already reported in the press for the interference with Peregrines
in the past & present

Now that most hybirds are off blue doc,
Numbers of lost birds will be hard to trace

Im sure someone on here had the figures (freedom of information style) of what hybrids had been registered & what had been lost over a given time frame.

With reference to Redtail X buzzard hybrids
Its not colour that identifies the hybrids its vocal calls
Which you WOULD notice very quickly come spring
There are cases, but not comon enough to have influenced the Common buteo in its reclaim of the english countryside

More serious than hybrids is the work currently done to create kestrel Nesting habitat in areas that are not intended for the use of such birds
These open areas are Merlin territories and pose a far more direct threat to native wildlife

Falconry has many skills under its belt
But so little is actually being done on behalf of falconers for english wildlife

Time to do that little bit more than a few Barn Owl boxes?

[PlantBreeder]

Hi Whitetail,

I can't argue with any of that.

My interest in hybrids is to learn more about what can be produced,
and what kind of effects such breeding has.

The presumption is that any falconer worthy of the name would not
abandon his bird, but persist until it is reclaimed.

The trouble comes when some idiot with a fistful of cash can buy a
bird. Price gives no assurance that it will be well cared for. Just
because they are rich does not mean they are smart - just look at
the so called celebs.

[Moritz]

Natural pairs of falcons only breed with peregrines if they are imprinted on peregrines. This has been discused on here a few times. The solution to the problem is quite simple. let all peregrine hybrids be reared by sakers, gyr/sakers or gyrs. I know one breeder that keeps 15 pairs of white 50/50 g/s just for that reason, he does not breed of these pairs anymore, they are only nannies. Also I often here about the numbers of birds lost during hack. How many people are actualy out there that hack large numbers of hybrids? I only know of 3 breeders that hack more than 10 birds. Mark Robb, Gary Wall and Ian Garland. Mark Robb only ever lost 2 birds in all the time they hacked birds and both times it were gyr/sakers. I do not know about the others.

Mo

[WhiteTail]

Natural pairs of falcons only breed with peregrines if they are imprinted on peregrines. This has been discused on here a few times. The solution to the problem is quite simple. let all peregrine hybrids be reared by sakers, gyr/sakers or gyrs. I know one breeder that keeps 15 pairs of white 50/50 g/s just for that reason, he does not breed of these pairs anymore, they are only nannies. Also I often here about the numbers of birds lost during hack. How many people are actualy out there that hack large numbers of hybrids? I only know of 3 breeders that hack more than 10 birds. Mark Robb, Gary Wall and Ian Garland. Mark Robb only ever lost 2 birds in all the time they hacked birds and both times it were gyr/sakers. I do not know about the others.

Mo


The first Hybrid PerexSaker, was done with a wild caught passage saker, by Ronald Stevens in a natural pairing.

[HaggisHawker]

.....and falcons imprinted on humans can end up breeding in aviaries as natural pairs.

Also, parent-reared falcons can become sexually imprinted on humans and stand for inseminations.

[Moritz]

The first Hybrid PerexSaker, was done with a wild caught passage saker, by Ronald Stevens in a natural pairing.

i did not know that. Was the peregrine wild caught or captive bred?

[Moritz]

.....and falcons imprinted on humans can end up breeding in aviaries as natural pairs.

Also, parent-reared falcons can become sexually imprinted on humans and stand for inseminations.

Yes it can happen but it is not very commen. My 3/4 g/s could be one of them.

Mo

[HaggisHawker]

I think Whitetail and I are trying to say that it's not necessarily true that 'Natural pairs of falcons only breed with peregrines if they are imprinted on peregrines.'

[BHawk]

anyone know of any natural hybrids in the wild in uk
two years ago i found a male redtail that had paired up with a common buzzard i went back last week to see if they had paired up this year and they have. last year they raised 4 young dont know how many this year wont know until they are at brancher stage will keep you informed

can you show any photos of the redtail please

[BHawk]

The first Hybrid PerexSaker, was done with a wild caught passage saker, by Ronald Stevens in a natural pairing.

do you have the full details on this?

[Moritz]

I think Whitetail and I are trying to say that it's not necessarily true that 'Natural pairs of falcons only breed with peregrines if they are imprinted on peregrines.'

I know what you are trying to say. But it is a very rare thing to happen and also the birds are in an aviary together and not out in the wild. I am talking about the general rule.

Mo

[Jeremiah Johnson]

I actualy thought it was martin jones

however your statement doest really fit with the topic

eg if that pair had been in a large pen with another saker and another peregrine

providing they didnt kill each other i would say that then they would have paired up with there own species

the desire to breed would is strong in all lifeforms (it is our existance really)

and when no other choice is presented you take what you can get

in the case of a passage saker free and wild in this country yes it would want need to breed ... and so would perhaps set aside its inhibitions of a non --saker partner .... however in reality the peregrine would not have to because of an abundance of peregrine partners



The first Hybrid PerexSaker, was done with a wild caught passage saker, by Ronald Stevens in a natural pairing.

[WhiteTail]

I actualy thought it was martin jones

however your statement doest really fit with the topic

eg if that pair had been in a large pen with another saker and another peregrine

providing they didnt kill each other i would say that then they would have paired up with there own species

the desire to breed would is strong in all lifeforms (it is our existance really)

and when no other choice is presented you take what you can get

in the case of a passage saker free and wild in this country yes it would want need to breed ... and so would perhaps set aside its inhibitions of a non --saker partner .... however in reality the peregrine would not have to because of an abundance of peregrine partners

Martin jones told me about the first.. and yes his was the first documented
breeding.

My concern is not really for the hybrids pairing off with Peregrines
but instead of them holding territories that should otherwise be occupied by peregrines.

Was one of the pairings known to DEFRA (noted earlier in this thread) not a GyrXsaker?

Im really not worried about Hybrids taking over the UK, but more a case of the high chance of the Odd chance pairing of hybrids

Dont get me wrong, I fly hybrids, so im certainly not trying to come over all pure & holier than thou.

There are many things that effect the future of falconry, and instead of sweeping it under the rug, discussion will certainly keep the issue fresh in the mind if the problem arrises again.

however your statement doest really fit with the topic

eg if that pair had been in a large pen with another saker and another peregrine

That was purely to point out that its not beyond all possibility
in response to Moritz' apparent statement of fact that pairings are possible
Obviously given the wide world to move in, the Hybrid is more likly to be chased off.