Bells can KILL

[Red2Tail]

This year I have heard of 3 BOP drowning because they caught their beaks in the slit of their tail bells, they then fell off the bow perch into the bath and drowned. So beware, only put the bath out when you are around.

[Accipter-Gentilis]

OMG sorry to hear that m8 what bells was you using?

[Liam Hay]

So was the reason for them dying not down to the tail bell and there beaks getting caught

[Red2Tail]

[QUOTE=ACCIPITER-GENTILIS]OMG sorry to hear that m8 what bells was you using?[/QUOTE

Not me personally losing 3 birds,just what I have been told thru the year.

[Red2Tail]

So was the reason for them dying not down to the tail bell and there beaks getting caught
Yes!!!

[Liam Hay]

Yes!!!

So y do baths kill, and y do u need to be around when they r with ur bird?

[Claire]

:confused: do you normally put a bath in front of or behind a bow? I always put them to the side. cant say I have EVER heard of this happening. maybe its the bells? more birds are killed by bathing late in winter before a frosty night, and I'm sure the risk of dehydration is higher than drowning

[Finnish]

I'm with you on this one Liam. How did the bath kill the bird if they had there Beak stuck in the bell.

[Barbary Boy]

what kind of bath was it? was it round or square? how deep should the ideal bath actually be?

[Red2Tail]

[QUOTE=PCHay]So y do baths kill, and y do u need to be around when they r with ur bird?[/QUOTE
Simply making people aware of accidents that can happen.

[GregMik]

I think the topic should have been "Bells can kill" then right? Do you want me to change it?

Greg

[Liam Hay]

[quote=PCHay]So y do baths kill, and y do u need to be around when they r with ur bird?[/QUOTE
Simply making people aware of accidents that can happen.

I aint been funny but 3 incidents of this can not be accidents, i have never heard of this b4 as Claire says what kind of bells r being used and where the hell is the bath placed

liam

[Red2Tail]

I'm with you on this one Liam. How did the bath kill the bird if they had there Beak stuck in the bell.
Apparently the beak got snagged in the bell, in struggling, it fell off its bow perch into the bath and drowned.

[Red2Tail]

I think the topic should have been "Bells can kill" then right? Do you want me to change it?

Greg
Or maybe beaks can kill. Whatever.

[Red2Tail]

[quote=Red2Tail]

I aint been funny but 3 incidents of this can not be accidents, i have never heard of this b4 as Claire says what kind of bells r being used and where the hell is the bath placed

liam
No idea what bells.

[Claire]

so shouldn't this be a thread warning people to check their bells for wear, I use nobel bells on my kes and I do check them as she bites them, I dont think its a good idea to tell people not to give their birds baths

[Red2Tail]

so shouldn't this be a thread warning people to check their bells for wear, I use nobel bells on my kes and I do check them as she bites them, I dont think its a good idea to tell people not to give their birds baths
Who is suggesting that you dont give birds the use of a bath???

[Liam Hay]

Who is suggesting that you dont give birds the use of a bath???

Well u r telling every one baths can kill!

When it sounds more like some idiots can kill birds with rubbish cheap **** on there birds

Liam

[Red2Tail]

Well u r telling every one baths can kill!

When it sounds more like some idiots can kill birds with rubbish cheap **** on there birds

Liam
I really should of titled this thread differently, and I agree with you maybe it was sub standard equipment. But I was only trying to pass on some information that came to my attention.

[Liam Hay]

Nothing wrong with info like that just annoys the hell out of me when ppl buy a brd and put 50p bells on that r meant for morris dancers:rolleyes:

[Red2Tail]

Nothing wrong with info like that just annoys the hell out of me when ppl buy a brd and put 50p bells on that r meant for morris dancers:rolleyes:
Couldn,t agree more, but lets not upset any morris dancers now, they probably spend pounds on their bells.

[Red2Tail]

I think the topic should have been "Bells can kill" then right? Do you want me to change it?

Greg
O.K Greg, change it please.

[Yarak1]

I'm with you on this one Liam. How did the bath kill the bird if they had there Beak stuck in the bell.

Because if the bath hadn't been there the bird would not have drowned...............but on the other hand if the bird had not got it's beak stuck in the bell then the bath wouldn't have come into the equation............

I think what he was really trying to say is to beware that if a bird gets it's beak stuck in a bell and a bath is there it can drown if it falls in...........or something to that effect.........

In any case the info is good as it might make people examine the bells they use so that this doesn't happen to their bird...................

[Talon]

its a pitty morris dancers dont get caught up in there bells and drown.:lol:

[Barbary Boy]

bells around birds necks! now theres a topic?

[Red2Tail]

Because if the bath hadn't been there the bird would not have drowned...............but on the other hand if the bird had not got it's beak stuck in the bell then the bath wouldn't have come into the equation............

I think what he was really trying to say is to beware that if a bird gets it's beak stuck in a bell and a bath is there it can drown if it falls in...........or something to that effect.........

In any case the info is good as it might make people examine the bells they use so that this doesn't happen to their bird...................
Yes,that is what I meant, I thought it was obvious. Thankyou John.

[Yarak1]

Yes,that is what I meant, I thought it was obvious. Thankyou John.

You're welcome................

[Red2Tail]

bells around birds necks! now theres a topic?
You did mean bells!!!!!

[Tim Laycock]

Nothing wrong with a bell around a hawks neck providing it is fitted properly.

[Claire]

now thats something I've only seen in books lol, would it not depend on the type of bird and how it flys? for example ok for a longwing but a bad idea on an accipitor?

[Nemesis]

Hi all the point is that bop are diying how many people leve there tail bell,s attached when not flying I always remove mine and bath is placed to one side when bow perched out /dave

[Barbary Boy]

dont like the idea of anything around a birds neck. bell or telemetry, lots of my mates do it though? but then im the bloke who thought the "B F C" (all bow) had frownd on screen perches! but their all the rage again now???????????????

[Tim Laycock]

now thats something I've only seen in books lol, would it not depend on the type of bird and how it flys? for example ok for a longwing but a bad idea on an accipitor?

I asume you think its a bad idea for an accipiter because the bird may cause itself injury when entering cover.
Nothing wrong in this assumption.

My understanding of the neck bell is that it is fitted so that it hangs over the birds crop below the feathers out of sight and harms way.

A neck bell should only be exposed when the bird is taking a crop (As the hawks crop begins to protrude from its chest the bell comes into play)

Neck bells are a valuable aid when long distance flights are attempted and it is likley that the hawk will have to be located while feeding up on a kill though now this function is largely filled by telemetry.

A neck bell that is too tight will not ring properly and is a danger

One that is too slack is criminal for all the obvious reasons :evil:

Like many things there is nothing wrong with it providing it is used correctly.

[Claire]

thanks for that bb

[Musket]

Hi, red2Tail, this might be a new one on some people, yes we know that hawks/falcons can drown,.......or die if you hit them hard enough,:) we must be AWARE of our BOP throughout the day. Nevertheless, to find out that three BOP have drowned because of the same problem makes one wonder why? Was it the same falconer? Same bells? Other coincidence, please enlighten us. As for Bells, this might be a question for another list.

If you fly with telemetry why use Bells? Tradition, finding hawk, looks and sound nice???(I Know but let us assume everyone does not)

And I would like to thank you for the information and hope it might save a life in the future.
Ken

[Tim Laycock]

Bells are a reliable back up, does not pay to put all your eggs in one basket.

Bells undoubtedly increase the chance of finding a lost hawk!

[Fawkes]

Bells are also very helpful when you can get close to the bird with telemetry but not pinpoint it because of cover or odd terrain (messing with the telemetry signal) - they helped us find our Gyr/lanner last year when he was chased off by an eagle!

[Ben C]

**** equipment fails.......................

I know a supply of bespoke handmade to order BRITISH BELLS that are very very VERY difficult to split and only cost a £10 :supz:

:supz:

[Liam Hay]

Hi all the point is that bop are diying how many people leve there tail bell,s attached when not flying I always remove mine and bath is placed to one side when bow perched out /dave

I don't think removing ur tail bell while not flying is a answer most can use, i certainly cannot and will not, however i assume u do this with cable ties, i am apposed to cable ties on a tail mount but every one has there different ways

Liam

[PeregrinesUK]

Ive never heard of thiswith bells but have heard of a number of deaths dues to birds beaks getting stuck in the tude on the tail mounts .. are you sure it was the bells ??? Mike

[Ben C]

It's not at all complicated.....just keep an eye on your hawk.

I mean, for christ sake how long does it take to get a beak wedged in a **** bell, struggle, flap around on the floor, flap into the bath.......THEN DROWN.

I know accidents happen but................................

[Liam Hay]

It's not at all complicated.....just keep an eye on your hawk.

I mean, for christ sake how long does it take to get a beak wedged in a **** bell, struggle, flap around on the floor, flap into the bath.......THEN DROWN.

I know accidents happen but................................

Agreed it is quite an accident to happen 3 times:shock:

[Ben C]

In which case its not 'bells that kill' but 'stupid bloody owners putting **** equipment on hawks and not watching them that kill'...............

he says from his ivory tower never having caused an accident :supz: :supz: :supz:

[Iamtheweasel]

I have to say that I have never heard of this happening.....Maybe these folks shodl re-think the bell type or mounting position. But telling folks to remove the bath is cause for more problems like dehydration and poor feather health. Plus, how deep where these folks keeping the bath water? it should be no more than 2-4 inches deep MAX for the mid size raptors....smaller bird=shallower water pan vice versa for the larger species ie. eagles etc.
Then of course there is the issue of location of the bath pan....uit should not sit directly below the perch for more than one reason.....Slices and mutes will end up in the water for one, and they can, as you spoke of, fall into it if disabled in some fashion. I place mine about 6-8 inches from the ouside of the block perch and give the bird enough leash to sit comfortably in the middle of the pan for a bath. It's simply precautions like these that can be a life saver. Unfortunatly, it usually takes the death of someones bird to realise thes situations. Every time you do something with the bird, think about what could happen in the worst case scenario and try your best to minimize those items. All of us with raptors have had some sort of issue at some point along the road and we generally learn to not do it again. Maybe we should start a thread on safety issues for raptor housing and weathering specificly on issues that have happened to bird previously.

[Hells99]

(Edited out) ....Maybe we should start a thread on safety issues for raptor housing and weathering specificly on issues that have happened to bird previously.
That sounds like a good idea for a thread, sometimes even the most obvious things can be overlooked simply because they ARE so obvious. It could well end up as a bulletpoint document for people to use.

[Yarak1]

[QUOTE=Musket]

Bells are a good source of locating a bird if your batteries run down............:wink:

[Musket]

"If you fly with telemetry why use Bells? Tradition, finding hawk, looks and sound nice???(I Know but let us assume everyone does not) " :)

[Yarak1]

"If you fly with telemetry why use Bells? Tradition, finding hawk, looks and sound nice???(I Know but let us assume everyone does not) " :)

But then not everyone flys with telemetry!!...........

[JFSeaman]

This may seem really hard but......

Bells don't kill birds, naf falconers kill birds.

There was a reason behind the beak getting stuck. These animals are in our care and it is our responsabilty to see that everything is done to ensure health and safety.

If the bell cracked the falconer didn't detect and remedy the situation.

If the slit in the bewet was too long the falconer didn't detect and remedy it.

If the bath infront of the bird was a hazard, the falconer didn't detect and remedy it.

If a falconer who has such a tragedy says to himself and the world, I learned from that mistake and it will not happen again, he has my respect and support.

If on the otherhand the falconer blames the equipment, breeder, conditions, what ever. I don't want to know him. Want him out of my club and not on field meets were I am. He chose the equipment, breeder what ever so it's still the falconers responability.

These animals are our charges, take charge, take responsability.

[Yarak1]

This may seem really hard but......

Bells don't kill birds, naf falconers kill birds.

There was a reason behind the beak getting stuck. These animals are in our care and it is our responsabilty to see that everything is done to ensure health and safety.

If the bell cracked the falconer didn't detect and remedy the situation.

If the slit in the bewet was too long the falconer didn't detect and remedy it.

If the bath infront of the bird was a hazard, the falconer didn't detect and remedy it.

If a falconer who has such a tragedy says to himself and the world, I learned from that mistake and it will not happen again, he has my respect and support.

If on the otherhand the falconer blames the equipment, breeder, conditions, what ever. I don't want to know him. Want him out of my club and not on field meets were I am. He chose the equipment, breeder what ever so it's still the falconers responability.

These animals are our charges, take charge, take responsability.

Spot on JF..............

[Red-Devil]

Spot on JF..............
ABSOLUTLLY

[Hobby]

I must confess that I have had a male Harris Hawk die[a few years back] from drowning in his bath.I was flying him for a friend and he came to me trained with a cable tie bell attachment on his tail.He was free lofted in quite a large aviary.In the morning I found him drowned in his bath[only about 3 inchs deep] with his beak wedged in the cable tie.His beak was not in need of a cope and the cable tie had not become loose.I think the fact that he fell off one of his perches and subsequently found his way into the bath in a large aviary was a bit of a freak,but I think the cable tie bewit in hindsight was an accident waiting to happen.A cable tie has no give in it and when looped leaves a gap for this kind of accident.I do not use any kind of cable tie on my birds.
Regarding not using bells on a bird with telemetry,I have tried this alot but must say that you cannot relax without hearing those bells and I found myself constantly trying to locate my bird.When bells are on you relax more.

[DeathFromAbove]

It's simple.....


If you buy **** it's gonna stink!

[Barry]

To argue the point here, this has happened to me.

I fitted a brand new ben long bell on a lannerette. The bird was fully manned, trained and had been flying for four years. This was simply replacement of older equipment. The bird had moulted his tail and the new decks were being fitted with new equipment, identical to the old. The bird as usual was then placed outside with the others with a Martin Jones bath. The bird was preening and enjoying some sunshine. After five minutes or so I went indoors to take a call. Stuart returned about three or four minutes later with a Harris Hawk which was put out on a bow with a bath and all was well on the weathering lawn. Around two minutes later I passed the birds and the lanner was not on his perch, he was in the bath. As an iregular bather I went over to check him and he was not moving. I ran to the bird and he was on his side in maybe 3 inches of water with his beak stuck in the hole at the end of the slit of a brand new bell of the correct size. He still had a heartbeat, but try as I migh I could not get his breathing going again.

You are all quite right, this is my responsibility. In all my years I had seen it twice before. Not drowning, but beaks stuck in bells. Once with a Gyr and a Dave Noble bell, and once with a Peregrine and a Peels bell. I am trying to learn from it as we all should do, but in all honesty, what can you do differently? A brand new, good quality bell, fitted on new equipment on a calm trained bird that was monitored. The beak was in perfect condition.

Before you point fingers and become holier than thou ask yourself what the facts may be. I made no mistake, but suffered a horrible experience and my bird suffered a more horrible death. What will I do different next time I fit equipment on a bird? Nothing. Not arrogant, just honest. I use the best equipment and keep it clean and in good condition. Please tell me if I am suddenly unsuitable to be a falconer.

Please remember that we keep around 24 flying birds here at any one time. So every year that passes we experience 24 or more bird years. This is a first and we have to put it down to a horrible accident.

I know nothing of the other two cases mentioned.

Barry.

[JFSeaman]

To argue the point here, this has happened to me.
...
You are all quite right, this is my responsibility.
...
I am trying to learn from it as we all should do, but in all honesty, what can you do differently?
...
Barry.

'...' means stuff deleted.

You are doing it.

Keeping a closer watch on your birds and trying and learning. That's all any of is can do. You keep alot of flying birds so it will happen more often. Heart wrenching story on the lanner.

[Miguel Gomez]

About 4 years ago, I put my Male Harris down on the bow perch next to his bath(3 inches deep) and heard a splash as I walked away. Did'nt bother looking back straight away, but as the splashing continued turned and to my horror he was on his back feet in air in the bath!

My fingers were fumbling the padlock to his mews and he had just stopped struggling as I scooped him out of the water.

Luckily he was ok, his beak tip had got caught in the small tail bell and quite difficult to dislodge.

Moral is, dont use old bells they get very thin, the opening gets enlarged and tinniest tip of beak can get stuck.

I would'nt have believed it until I had seen it.

[Kennelre]

When I was a child my mother would always say..'I wouldn't have minded if it were an accident'. With hindsight I believe that she was always too quick to allocate blame and that perhaps an interpretation of 'accident' would be;a freak occurance within a situation where you have done your very best to anticipate all eventualities. With small children and animals we are forever working out all possible scenarios where they may hurt themselves or, worse still, get killed. A farmer friend lost his young son in a freak farmyard accident some years back and I was appalled at the amount of people who demanded that he be prosecuted for doing something that farmers do everyday....what further punishment could he possibly have endured than that which he was already enduring. This bell thread is interesting because I went through a period of preoccupation that my bird may get her beak stuck in the bell and drown, which was a source of great amusement for friends who thought I had finally gone nuts. Accidents happen and yes, if you are the all seeing eye, you could probably have done something differant, but that's not the same as allocating blame because sometimes it's not viable to do anything differantly at all. Surely it's all about the thoughtful assesment of risk..........

[Jimmy]

Hi all the point is that bop are diying how many people leve there tail bell,s attached when not flying I always remove mine and bath is placed to one side when bow perched out /dave

Surely it has nothing to do with being a tail bell. It could just as easily happen with a leg bell I would think. I've personnaly never heard of this happening and I find it a little hard to believe. I see no way that a bird could get it's beak hung in a proper bell in such a way that it couldn't get it unhung. This story just doesn't ring true for me for some reason. <pun intended.

[Barry]

Well said Kennelre,

We all do all we can, but ugly accidents can happen. What happened to my bird was horrible. Despite intense inspection of the bell and fitting, nobody has come up with anything wrong, indeed comparisons of the bell with those of other manufacturers show the bell be one of the last candidates for this to happen to. I can still find nothing I could have done differently. That is aside of course from sitting watching the bird 24/7 which is impractical and impossible for any of us.
Just one thought I did have is that I may see if it is possible to plug the drilled holes at the end of bell slits. The hole is there to prevent cracking from the end of the slit so it should not affect the efficiency of the bell.

As I said before, I know nothing of the other two cases mentioned where this has happened to other birds.

Barry.

[JFSeaman]

...
Surely it's all about the thoughtful assesment of risk..........

If Andy reads this.....

Maybe also a reassessment of the slits in bells since that seems to be the biggest source of stuck beaks. The loop for the bewet and even (not using them anymore) cable ties seems to occur less than beaks caught in the bell slits. Maybe just holes to small for a beak to get caught in.

There hasn't been a redesign of bells for hundreds if not thousands of years.

In R/C planes we have a lost plane siren. Cheap, loud but might be heavy and requires a transmitter to set it off.

There is/should be soon a new generation of telem that can/will be two way with GPS and mobile phone technology. If the manufactures can be persuaded to include a piezio siren triggered by a downlink no bells requried.

[Barry]

Jimmy,

Don't be so quick to be dismissive. This, you are right could happen to any type of bell fitting. The bird, as a falcon was on a block so bath position was irrelevant. This happened, and I hate that it did. Furthermore I have just been messing aroung with a buzzard carcass that was handed in here yesterday, and with the lanner carcass. Both birds beaks can be trapped quite tightly in the new bells of four different manufacturers of the size that would be used for each bird, that I have here. As I said, I have seen other birds getting beaks trapped, but with no dire end result. The birds as you know can give a good bite which would bush the beak end in quite tightly, but the release is much harder. I have tried it with real bird carcasses and you can easily see how it would be hard to get the beak out once caught. Also remember, this bird died in a matter of perhaps three minutes.

A quick release, but secure system of attaching bells may be a good idea. I don't like neck bells and for some birds it seems impractical. So Jimmy, instead of being dismissive of the possibility of an accident despite high standards of care please show or explain the system you use to attach/remove bells from your birds.

Barry.

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

I suppose the old button bewit removed after flying could be an answer to this problem?

[Hobby]

I, for various reasons, attach a leg bell to my FHH on a bewit with velcro.The bell always sits tight on the leg and never hangs down like a permanent bewit can over time.It has never come off whilst in use and she has never pulled it off.I appreciate that this set up may not work for everyone,but I myself find it useful.

[GyrXPeales]

I've never had this happen to a bird, but know some who have. I use a Marshall Micro attached by a traditional bewit on one leg as a back up tx, and a single bell on the other leg (bewit mount). I put the bell on at the same time as my transmitter, and take it off as soon as the hunt is done, then I don't have to worry about it. I also change the bewit every two weeks so I always have a tight fit.
I know some don't like leg mounted bells, but in this case if the bell is not on the bird in the mew or wx area it can't be a problem.
Regards,
Jeff

[Barry]

Hey Karl,

Problem is the bewit fitted on legs has the possibility of causing too many tragedies of it's own. Luckily never one of my birds, but I have seen multiple cases of birds being trapped in blackthorns and various other places by the bewit. I once saw a harris with well fitted bewit leg bells plunge into cover after game, a long thorn pointing upward went up between bewit and leg and ripped leg back to the bone exposing tendon etc. There was a huge infection and the bird could not be tethered or flown for about 10 months. Big up to the vet that got it fixed, but it's just another occasion where good equipment well fitted caused a huge injury.

Barry.

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

Must admit I was thinking more of my longwings.

[Jimmy]

I typed my earlier response before seeing that so many people had posted that it had happened to them. I stand corrected, I guess it is possible. I had never heard of it before now. My birds have always ignored their bells. I don't use a tail bell, only a leg bell. Mine are atached with a cable tie to the grommet in the anklet. I don't use bewits because I feel it's simply adding more unneccesarry stuff to a bird's leg. The cable tie is secured tightly so that the bell stands straight out, and doesn't "hang". It works for me and I won't be doing anything differently.

[Miguel Gomez]

As hardly any of you have heard of this happening - its just one of those freak accidents and not worth changing kit/methods over.

That said I no longer use Tail-Bells as it does get in the way when putting a trannie on.

The cheap kit that this occurred with, happened to be an Asborno bell:o

[Sparrow Hawker]

One way to reduce the problem would be to use a small piece of electrical insulation tape placed over the bell (when the birds not being flown) has anyone tried this before?

SH

[Jimmy]

One way to reduce the problem would be to use a small piece of electrical insulation tape placed over the bell (when the birds not being flown) has anyone tried this before?

SH

Couldn't the bird easily pierce the tape?

[Hobby]

Hey Karl,

Problem is the bewit fitted on legs has the possibility of causing too many tragedies of it's own. Luckily never one of my birds, but I have seen multiple cases of birds being trapped in blackthorns and various other places by the bewit. I once saw a harris with well fitted bewit leg bells plunge into cover after game, a long thorn pointing upward went up between bewit and leg and ripped leg back to the bone exposing tendon etc. There was a huge infection and the bird could not be tethered or flown for about 10 months. Big up to the vet that got it fixed, but it's just another occasion where good equipment well fitted caused a huge injury.

Barry.
I would think my velcro bewit would come off in such an instance.

[Barry]

One way to reduce the problem would be to use a small piece of electrical insulation tape placed over the bell (when the birds not being flown) has anyone tried this before?

SH

Bloody good idea. Never tried or thought of it. Like Jimmy said, the bird would likely pierce it, but it could be a simple and effective way of further reducing what is already a small risk.

Barry

[Hobby]

One way to reduce the problem would be to use a small piece of electrical insulation tape placed over the bell (when the birds not being flown) has anyone tried this before?

SHWould it stay on if wet?

[Barry]

Would it stay on if wet?


******!

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

Small blob of araldite in the holes? Wouldnt stop the hole doing its job, water proof and easily replaced.

[Barry]

I think that's probably my plan Karl.

Barry

[Jimmy]

Would it stay on if wet?

Yes, if you guys have the same kind of electrical tape as we do, it would stay on when wet. But, depending on how you attach your bells, it might be simpler to just remove them. Also, the birds may decide to pick at the tape, even if they never pick at their bells.

[Sparrow Hawker]

Couldn't the bird easily pierce the tape?

It’s a possibility they could pierce it but they’re less likely to get their beak into the slit of the bell, than if the bell was left exposed.


Would it stay on if wet?

Depends what stuff you get as there are different qualities available but the stuff I use is pretty good and doesn’t come off easily in water.


I tend to use electrical insulation tape for all sorts of stuff I always place a small piece over my ferret collar end caps and I also tape up the cap on the transmitter, it helps reduce water from getting in and it keeps the caps in place. It's just something that gives me piece of mind.

All The Best,

SH

[Puzo]

dont like the idea of anything around a birds neck. bell or telemetry, lots of my mates do it though? but then im the bloke who thought the "B F C" (all bow) had frownd on screen perches! but their all the rage again now???????????????
Got to agree with you on this putting a bell or Tx round the neck of any bird, let alone an accipiter, which will enter thick cover in pursuit of prey seems to be asking for trouble. <P>As for baths & bow perches I aleays though you positioned the bath to the side of the perch to stop the bird craping in it's bath. <P> I don't see how a bird gets it's beak stuck in a bell. Even one of those cheap Pakistani ones. Unless it was held on with a cable tie, which the bird got it's bill in & then tightend. But to then suffer the dual misfortune of then falling into a bath from which it is unable to escape. For this to happen not just once but on three different ocassions almost defies credibility. Though anything that encourages us to check our equipment & not become lax in our methods has got to be a good thing. If something can go wrong. Sods Law ensures it will. I have seen a redtail caught on barbed wire by the bell. Not the bewit but rusty barbed wire had gone up inside the bell & lodged quite firmly. So anything can happen & if it can it probably will.

[Nemesis]

I don't think removing ur tail bell while not flying is a answer most can use, i certainly cannot and will not, however i assume u do this with cable ties, i am apposed to cable ties on a tail mount but every one has there different ways

Liam
hi Liam dont use cable ties put it on with telemetry and dont have problems

[Barry]

Puzo,

This happened, the bell was not on a cable tie. Read the posts and you will see it happens easily. The bell it happened on with me was a brand new Ben Long bell and I have seen it with others without the disasterous results. The beak was stuck in the hole at the end of the slit, not in the slit at all. Please don't say you can't see how it can heppen, it suggests you are ignoring the possibility. From what I read it has happened to others peoples birds, about them I have now idea on how, why or what equipment, but I set the highest standards here and IT HAPPENED. Also, how do you put a bath 'next to a block'? Each morning our birds baths are put out beside the block so as the bird faces into the breeze it will not bate into the bath, nor mute in it. But wind changes direction throughout the day and a bird on a block can face any way it wants especially if there is no wind, so whatever you do the bird will end up with the bath in the wrong place.

I have been doing this a long time and have seen more than most and still I try to learn and develop techniques. However this was a very sad accident. At the risk of repeating myself, I know nothing of the other birds or people this has happened to, but at least I can see that it may also have been a sad accident and I have no right to accuse or discredit what may have happened.

Barry.

[Claire]

I think the original post made it sound unbelievable or due to bad equipment but from what you have said it was a freak accident, I worried that the original poster was trying to say birds should only have a bath under supervision, I think that we can all learn from it though, it has brought to attention a risk which most had never considered, and being aware of that risk might mean that people check bells more often, not that it was your fault in your case but I would imagine the risk of this happening to be higher with inferior quality bells

[Barry]

I think you are right Claire in that this seems more of a possibility with poor quality or damaged bells, even though mine was brand new. I must say though that while I agree we should all be checking equipment regularily, again in my case it would have made no difference as the bell was new. Can I also make it clear to all that I am not in any way criticising or blaming the Ben Long bell. It was new, perfect and I would not hesitate to use one again. It was just an unforseeable, horrible accident.

Barry.

[Puzo]

Barry,I didn't know this had happend to you. I wrote this before reading how you had actualy tried it with a dead buzzard. I would have thought that if the bird forced it's beak into the bell opening the ensuing panic would give it the strength needed to exticate itself. It seems I'm wrong.Then for it to fall into the bath I am not blaming anyone for this happening. Who could have forseen this? It was more the fact that it had happend three times, to three different people {that we know about} That I found incredible, not incredible in the sense of your a liar I don't beleive it. But in the sense that it never occured to me that such a thing could ever happen. I didn't accuse or impune anyone least of all you! For what seems to me to be an unforseeable accident & I am sorry for your loss.

[Barry]

Cheers Puzo, sorry if I misunderstood you. I am secretly wondering what the situation was in the other cases. I hope whenever this has happened it has been an accident, but I would be livid if it had happened because of poor practice.

Barry.

[Kennelre]

I think the original post made it sound unbelievable or due to bad equipment but from what you have said it was a freak accident, I worried that the original poster was trying to say birds should only have a bath under supervision, I think that we can all learn from it though, it has brought to attention a risk which most had never considered, and being aware of that risk might mean that people check bells more often, not that it was your fault in your case but I would imagine the risk of this happening to be higher with inferior quality bells

Red2Tail started up an interesting post with the intention of drawing people's attention to an area where the potential for accident exists and as the post progressed this potential has been confirmed by peoples declarations of their direct experience. His suggestion about the bath would be completely credible in an institutional risk assesment as it would succeed in addressing the ultimate cause of death, which has been defined as drowning rather than entrapment by the bell itself. I don't think that the original poster was treated particularly respectfully in this instance, especially since he has been proven to be completely correct. You could also argue that the concept of supervised bathing would be the only certain way to negate the possibilty of drowning and I cen tell you with certainty that there are many environments in which you would be expected to do exactly that..or get sued. Aren't we lucky if we are in the position that we only have to answer to ourselves.....and our conscience?

[MattSpar]

This is one of those million to one chances, against which one is pretty well powerless to guard.

[Joey]

easy answer dont use bells and get telemetry



joey

[Ben C]

Nope...get smaller holes in your bells........simple.

[Joey]

or that ben c

[Ben C]

Or put a cork on your hawks beak!!! That should do it :supz: :supz:

[Bash]

This is one of those million to one chances, against which one is pretty well powerless to guard.

I agree with you Matt. You can't guard against eveything and anything could be a risk. The risk is small compared to the benefit of having a bell. You just live with it.

[Red2Tail]

Red2Tail started up an interesting post with the intention of drawing people's attention to an area where the potential for accident exists and as the post progressed this potential has been confirmed by peoples declarations of their direct experience. His suggestion about the bath would be completely credible in an institutional risk assesment as it would succeed in addressing the ultimate cause of death, which has been defined as drowning rather than entrapment by the bell itself. I don't think that the original poster was treated particularly respectfully in this instance, especially since he has been proven to be completely correct. You could also argue that the concept of supervised bathing would be the only certain way to negate the possibilty of drowning and I cen tell you with certainty that there are many environments in which you would be expected to do exactly that..or get sued. Aren't we lucky if we are in the position that we only have to answer to ourselves.....and our conscience?Bringing it to peoples attention was all I was trying to do, and your right I didnt appreciate some of the early posts.

[Yarak1]

Bringing it to peoples attention was all I was trying to do, and your right I didnt appreciate some of the early posts.

And nor should you Kev...........very aggressive posts towards you........

Makes people hesitant to post what they think is good info................

[GoodFooter]

Or put a cork on your hawks beak!!! That should do it :supz: :supz:
Go to the back of the class & stop misbehaving!!!!
PS I hear the metal work dept. will have to be keeping a tab on their stuff!!!!