Feeding a bird

[hawkgirlrandomnumber]

What's the best proceedure to feed your bird daily? The bird I have in mind will be tethered in his mews. I know he already has territorial problems because previously he was fed in his mews. I hope to change his bad habits when I get him, so I was wondering if theres any opinions on the matter. The bird is a mhh if that makes any difference. Thanks

[FlameHairedFalconer]

Can you give us a little more about the background of the harris and what the problems are?

FHF

[hawkgirlrandomnumber]

Okay. I've only known this paticular bird for a year and a half, I've worked with him a little on and off. Soon I will be bringing him to my place, and fully taking care of him. He's about 5 or 6 years old, and has always been a bit 'strange'. Ever since he was bought from the breeder. We're hoping that with a change of owner and location his quirks will be worked out. He's fine on the fist, he'll let you touch him, and has no problems with other people touching him either. He is incredibly territorial of his ring perch which is used both in the mews and when he's weathering outside. I will be buying a new perch for him.
Um, about a year ago when I started out helping out with the bird he had no problems with me in the mews, but with his owners would I guess be territorial and was I think now expecting food when they were around. Now though he's seen me feed him (he always sees who feeds him when he is fed, the food is just thrown to him) and has started doing the same thing with me. He will be the first bird I will take care of on my own. He is already trained but hasn't been regularily worked with. I think that is pretty much the entire history of the bird, heh. Thanks for the help!

[Intek Hosting]

If this is your first bird perhaps release it (if you can legally do so) and apply for a permit to trap a young bird (if that is allowed to where you live) that hasnt been messed up.

Must say I do admire your courage in taking on a problem bird, particularly one with territorial agression!!, but honestly if you need to ask how to go about it (i.e. If You dont already have past experience with a bird like this) then any mistake you make while you are learning could be very difficult to put right.

Have you kept birds before?
If so have you worked with a problem Harris before? Are you comfortable with the fact that the bird may grab you in places you dont want to be grabbed :-)
Seriously youre a very brave person to take on a bird like that, just keep your kids and dogs away from its mews. :-)

[Kitana]

Yep very honorable decision of you.

I don't know the bird and maybe what I will say do not apply to him, but it may also help so... Think about it: if every time your bird displayed agressivity it was fed, then it has been unvoluntarily trained to display agressivity... Dolphins are trained that way, given ffod when they perform correctly, and it is one of the most powerful training technic...

Something that can be tried, is to wait with the food in your hands until the bird stops agressive displays, and feed it only when it calms down, even from an instant. At the beginning do not expect it to become completely calm, just wait for the less threatening attitude before you throw the food. But shortly you should see more of the calmer attitude and less of the agressive one. You can also multiply the feeding sessions by dividing the meal in many small meals, so you would have many opportunities each day to train the hawk. In a couple of sessions you should see improvements in your bird attitude, if it is an agressivity that has been «trained». The association you want it to make is «I have to be calm when this person is around if I want food». But from reading you, I don't think that the bird fears you or «hates» you, it would not be as steady on the glove as it is... It may be worth it to give it a try.

[hawkgirlrandomnumber]

Thanks. I kind of feel that I've given a bit of a wrong impression... I know the bird isn't acting 'properly', but I'm not afraid of it, and I don't think it's really dangerous, but acting in a way that's not great. I can't release it as I live in Ontario, Canada, and also because of this I can't trap a new bird... a peeve of mine. I'm willing to do the work to get this bird going.
I haven't kept a bird before, and I haven't been grabbed exactly (unless you count calling a bald eagle to the glove and having it's talon dig in my arm where the glove wasn't covering it as the bird perched :wink: ) but I see being footed as a fact of life.
I was also wondering if it would be better to have a food chute or something like that where the bird wouldn't know I was feeding it.
Like I said I don't have the bird yet but in a few weeks I will try training it out of it's aggressivity. Oh and I don't have kids so there's no worry there.

[GregMik]

Hawkgirl,
I would suggest that you don't throw the bird food anymore. I would start taking him to the food. That will concentrate his aggression away from you instead of at you as you have the food.

What you need to do is, put the food somewhere out of sight of him. Go in and get the bird on the fist and walk around for a little while. When he has calmed down, I am assuming he will be agitated when you first pick him up, take him to the food. This will get him looking forward to seeing you and will want to be on your fist as you are taking him to the food, rather than being aggressive toward you because you have the food.

After a while you will be able to go in and put the food on the ground behind you, pick him up, walk about and then bring him to the food next to his perch. While you have him on the fist it would be a good time to weigh him also.

Hope this helps,

Greg

[GregMik]

Thanks. I kind of feel that I've given a bit of a wrong impression... I know the bird isn't acting 'properly', but I'm not afraid of it, and I don't think it's really dangerous, but acting in a way that's not great. I can't release it as I live in Ontario, Canada, and also because of this I can't trap a new bird... a peeve of mine. I'm willing to do the work to get this bird going.
I haven't kept a bird before, and I haven't been grabbed exactly (unless you count calling a bald eagle to the glove and having it's talon dig in my arm where the glove wasn't covering it as the bird perched :wink: ) but I see being footed as a fact of life.
I was also wondering if it would be better to have a food chute or something like that where the bird wouldn't know I was feeding it.
Like I said I don't have the bird yet but in a few weeks I will try training it out of it's aggressivity. Oh and I don't have kids so there's no worry there.

A food shute would help but not completely solve the problem as he can still hear you walk up and put the food in the chute. If you have a timer system to drop the food into the chute after you have left would help alot.

Greg

[Nemesis]

HI I got some good advise when I first started and it might help only feed your bird away from home were you can it might be that it see,s its bow perch ass a place for food if it get,s feed away from the perch it might setle down hope this helps /dave

[Coedhirion]

This is a problem if the bird is never free lofted. When free lofted you can use a pipe or shelf to get the food in. The bird will know you are there, but if you are walking past quite often dosnt appear to connect the 2 in quite the same way. Yes my birds will wait hopefuly by their trap doors when they see me go past, but if I go in with them they dont expect food so are very laid back.
Taking the bird to the food is used with imprints but is hard to sort out as you have to either stand and hold a leash or try and tether them while they are feeding, which you should be able to do with a well adjusted bird, but in this case I recon would turn up more problems. Feeding on the fist will probably start it yelling each time it sees you. The only answer I can think of is a compromise. 2 perches, one placed where you are going to feed and the other for the rest of the time. Not sure if this makes sense, but if you put the bird on the "feed" perch, drop the food quick and walk away. when it has finished, pick it up and move to the other perch. May be a dumb idea, but that way you may break the cycle. :oops:

[Coedhirion]

All interesting problems turn up when I should be asleep !!
A second dumb idea... How about feeding from a lure? walk in throw out the lure close to the bird. May turn the attention from you and the bow to the lure. Also if you direct his feeding to a lure may help out hunting. :oops:

[Coedhirion]

Thought about this all day and I am sure the only hope is to pick up the bird and take it to a second perch to feed :!: The way it can be done is to put the food in say a heavy, none tip dog bowl. Place a piece of carpet over the top, which has a long string attached. Bring the bird to the perch, then walk (preferably well out of sight) pick up the string and pull the carpet off the dish. Trouble is as it is a Harris I don't know how long it will take for the bird to learn to take the cover off the dish for itself :roll: It will work for other BOPs tho.

[GregMik]

This is a problem if the bird is never free lofted. When free lofted you can use a pipe or shelf to get the food in. The bird will know you are there, but if you are walking past quite often dosnt appear to connect the 2 in quite the same way. Yes my birds will wait hopefuly by their trap doors when they see me go past, but if I go in with them they dont expect food so are very laid back.
Taking the bird to the food is used with imprints but is hard to sort out as you have to either stand and hold a leash or try and tether them while they are feeding, which you should be able to do with a well adjusted bird, but in this case I recon would turn up more problems. Feeding on the fist will probably start it yelling each time it sees you. The only answer I can think of is a compromise. 2 perches, one placed where you are going to feed and the other for the rest of the time. Not sure if this makes sense, but if you put the bird on the "feed" perch, drop the food quick and walk away. when it has finished, pick it up and move to the other perch. May be a dumb idea, but that way you may break the cycle. :oops:

The problem I see with this is that you are now making a variable reward system which is stronger than a straight reward. If you read the book "Don't Shoot The Dog", you will see this straight away. This is a main training tool in operant conditioning.

A separate "feeding" perch will take the aggressiveness away from the "main" perch, but then you will have aggressive tendencies on the "feeding" perch. If you just move the food around and take the bird to the food instead of throwing the food to the bird it will solve the problem.

Greg

[Matthew Patching]

DONT feed it in the pen.
Dont feed it at its ring perch
Dont feed it on the fist(except for tidbits)
Dont feed it at home

Take it out and feed it whilst flying any big bits should be given on a lure and it should only be allowed to feed from this after a short mock battle has taken place.

And be careful.

[Kitana]

If you just move the food around and take the bird to the food instead of throwing the food to the bird it will solve the problem.

Greg

In behavior modification, the strategy you suggest Greg is based on classical conditioning, not operant conditionning.

The bird will associate something that has no meaning (being outside on the fist) with something pleasant(receiving food) and it will eventually decrease the agression toward people and «like» being on the fist. It is a tool that works.

But, if you know a little bit about behavioral modification, behaviors learned under classical conditionning are not as strongly and fastly acquired than if they are learned under operant conditionning. That's why I suggested using operant conditionning (no food given if being agressive, food only if being calm) to modify this behavior. Operant conditionning usually works incredibly faster than classical conditionning and is more reliable just because the animal has to think about what he have to do to get the reward. Once the bird understands, it is a very solid behavior. The neurological connections made under operant conditionning are faster and stronger than those made under classical conditionning.

Both systems work, but operant conditionning usually works faster so the trainer is less likely to give up... The technic I gave is very frequently used with many species of animal that are agressive when people approach their pen, be they birds, horses, dogs or lions. Nobody wants to work with an agressive animal...

[GregMik]

In behavior modification, the strategy you suggest Greg is based on classical conditioning, not operant conditionning.

The bird will associate something that has no meaning (being outside on the fist) with something pleasant(receiving food) and it will eventually decrease the agression toward people and «like» being on the fist. It is a tool that works.

But, if you know a little bit about behavioral modification, behaviors learned under classical conditionning are not as strongly and fastly acquired than if they are learned under operant conditionning. That's why I suggested using operant conditionning (no food given if being agressive, food only if being calm) to modify this behavior. Operant conditionning usually works incredibly faster than classical conditionning and is more reliable just because the animal has to think about what he have to do to get the reward. Once the bird understands, it is a very solid behavior. The neurological connections made under operant conditionning are faster and stronger than those made under classical conditionning.

Both systems work, but operant conditionning usually works faster so the trainer is less likely to give up... The technic I gave is very frequently used with many species of animal that are agressive when people approach their pen, be they birds, horses, dogs or lions. Nobody wants to work with an agressive animal...

Kitana,
If you read my post you will see that I was not suggesting that he use operant conditioning, you will see that I refered to it because of the walking in front of the mews verses feeding through a food shoot, and it being a variable reward.

Greg

[Kitana]

Yes greg I read your post, it's just that I didn't quote effectively... I will correct my quote.

I was talking about the method you suggested of taking the bird to the food on the fist. This method is pure classical conditionning.

[GregMik]

Yup...I know that.

Greg

[NorthenEnglandHawker]

nobody should feed there bird in the mews it should be done after the bird has been flown or after a manning session throwing food leads to this problem and bad aggresion and hawkgirl footing is apart of bop but not when the place ur bein footed is ur face and that is what will happen maybe not tommorow but it will

[hawkgirlrandomnumber]

That is very true. And it's true I hadn't thought of that. Thanks.

Thanks too for all the help I've recieved. For someone new there is alot of confusion about the 'right' way to do things, and having a 'problem' bird throws in a whole new variable.

On those lines, how should tidbitting be utiliized? I know there are conflicting views on that question too, I would like to know why/why not to use various methods. That was always confusing for me.

I've read you should bring a tidbit every time you go to pick up the bird so it looks forward to your coming. Is that after you've got it on the fist, outside, etc.? Or is it used much in the way as jump ups? Does this have the potential to create bad behaviour?

I have read somewhat extensively about falconry and it's not like I'm going into this completely unaware, but some things aren't expanded upon too much in books.

Thanks for any help, and again for the great help I've already recieved!

[Kitana]

throwing food leads to this problem and bad aggresion

I completely agree with you, but there is a way to feed safely in the mew: give the food as a reward for a wanted behavior, example being very calm on the perch.

Anticipation of food can lead to agression from every species of animal, be they BoP, horses or killer whales. Look at what the killer whales are trained to do using only food as the training method, hell they can kill for food not just foot the face and they wouldn't hesitate to kill if food was just thrown at them. But food is used in an intelligent way, the trainers know that each time they feed the animal they are reinforcing the behavior done prior to receiving food, then it is the trainer responsibility to choose which behavior he wants to reinforce and never reinforce something that could lead to agression.

There is a strong belief in horsemen community against hand-feeding, that it can lead to someone being badly bitten by agressive horses. It's very true, unconsiderate hand feeding in horses can lead to bad agression, just as feeding a bird in the mew can lead to agression. But feeding only when the horse (or bird or killer whale...) becomes calm reinforce the calm behavior and eliminates agression.

[GregMik]

Kitana,
Now you are generalizing. Every species has their own specific problems with aggression. Here we are talking Raptors, which are very different from killer whales. There have been no confirmed(that I have seen) cases of a killer whale actually going after a Human for food, or to protect their young for that matter. While a Goshawk will try to kill you if it can to protect its nest. Totally different behaviors to modify.

For this specific case I would agree that Operant conditioning would work as good if not better because the bird is sitting on a perch and you have to modify a behavior there.

I will not advocate at total behavior modification plan like you would do for a hunting bird. You and I will go round and round about this, until you actually train a hunting bird.

Greg

[Kitana]

Kitana,
Now you are generalizing. Every species has their own specific problems with aggression. Here we are talking Raptors, which are very different from killer whales. There have been no confirmed(that I have seen) cases of a killer whale actually going after a Human for food, or to protect their young for that matter.

Mmmm you haven't talked with many killer whale trainers don't you? These animals are killers, just as dolphins and sealions are. They show a lot of agressivity toward their trainers and accidents happen frequently where the humans are badly injured. Most of their agressivity comes from feeding times, and can be resolved with a behavior modification program. But these beasts are amongst the most dangerous animals humans train and we are able to go in the water with them just because the trainers have a profound understanding of animal psychology.

I don't know for sure if the behavior of this bird has been reinforced by feeding it when it was agressive, I can't know since I haven't seen the bird. But the best way to know it is to take 3-4 feeding sessions per day for 2-3 days feeding only calm behaviors and see what the results are. A big part of my job is to analyze and modify dangerous or unpleasant animal behavior, in dogs, cats, horses, companion birds, and when you do that, you understand that the same principles apply to every animal species, with their particularities of course but these particularities are far less important than what you can imagine... I don't see what problem could feeding in the mew bring in a hunting bird. It will stilll be eager to go hunting when taken on the fist... Eagerness to hunt is a complex thing and is not related to only 1 factor, re eating out of the aviary.

[NorthenEnglandHawker]

I completely agree with you, but there is a way to feed safely in the mew: give the food as a reward for a wanted behavior, example being very calm on the perch.

exactly in a sence i do feed my bird in the mews as i pick them up with a pick-up piece (doc leg) but the main amount of food comes from flying and if its a rest day she is weighed and taken to a neutral spot and feed on the fist

BTW hawkgirl do you know if this guy has been propery hunted and if not that could be contrabeuting to the problem

[GregMik]

Mmmm you haven't talked with many killer whale trainers don't you? These animals are killers, just as dolphins and sealions are. They show a lot of agressivity toward their trainers and accidents happen frequently where the humans are badly injured. Most of their agressivity comes from feeding times, and can be resolved with a behavior modification program. But these beasts are amongst the most dangerous animals humans train and we are able to go in the water with them just because the trainers have a profound understanding of animal psychology.

I don't know for sure if the behavior of this bird has been reinforced by feeding it when it was agressive, I can't know since I haven't seen the bird. But the best way to know it is to take 3-4 feeding sessions per day for 2-3 days feeding only calm behaviors and see what the results are. A big part of my job is to analyze and modify dangerous or unpleasant animal behavior, in dogs, cats, horses, companion birds, and when you do that, you understand that the same principles apply to every animal species, with their particularities of course but these particularities are far less important than what you can imagine... I don't see what problem could feeding in the mew bring in a hunting bird. It will stilll be eager to go hunting when taken on the fist... Eagerness to hunt is a complex thing and is not related to only 1 factor, re eating out of the aviary.

Kitana,
The easiest way here is with traditional methods. You are way over thinking this situation. All they have to do to cure the aggression on the perch is to quit throwing the food to it there. You are bringing the food to the bird and not the bird to the food. Simple really.

I know you are going to respond with how wrong I am...As you seem to always want the last word...

Greg

[Tim Laycock]

Killer whales and the like are large brained mamals.

Diurnal raptors are not!

[hawkgirlrandomnumber]

The bird hasn't been hunted. Could part of the problem be that he's bored, if that's possible? I do want to hunt with him eventually.

[NorthenEnglandHawker]

depending on his age it could be a severe as if hes 3 or older than he will start to hunt you and when hes down at flying weight the aggresion will be far worse but if hes 2 or under theres a chance to pull him back but he might still be a little aggresive

so my advice is hunt wiv him and get rid of the pend up aggresion

[Kitana]

I know you are going to respond with how wrong I am...As you seem to always want the last word...

Greg

Wow... Don't worry, I never said you were wrong. And I never said my suggestion was the only one that could work.

I just trully appreciate having an interesting discussion about training with people who understand the psychological principles behind what they do. Anyone can apply a "training recipe", but few trully understand how things work in the head of the animal they train. I don't think it is about having the last word, a forum is about sharing information and that is what we were doing. Then if someone think that his method is THE way to go, to me it looks more like religious dogma than knowledge, and there is no point to discuss dogma...

[Bird_Dog]

The last few posts are interesting -- The subtlety of food and raptor interactions are so very important. Most people tend to follow an algorithm to train and solve behavioral problems. There's no real interest in the scientific basis of behavior. Perhaps falconers want a "recipe" for training. What nonfalconers don't often grap is that providing food is in many cases a bad thing. We want a bird to "catch" its own rewards (i.e., hunt). Although Kitana is not a falconer, her idea of using operant conditioning in solving behavioral problem could have more merit than some think. Operant conditioning is likened to a form of communication. There's a simple way for falconers to experience this. It's called the "trainers game". The game was devised by Karen Pryor to teach the basics of positive reinforcement to animal trainers. People take turns clicker training each other to perform arbitray behaviors. It is very enlightening. Anyway in order to more fully exploit scientific approaches to falconry we need to devise new equipment. One thing would be an automatic food delivery device. The principles of operant conditioning were studied using automated lab equipment. Cues and food are delivered without human interaction, rather humans manipulated behavior. Falconers don't want to produce screaming food imprints, but we do want our birds to hunt cooperatively. A device that can be used to feed raptors or enrich them around the mew would separate that context of learning from learning to hunt in the field. The problem is how to make a device for raptor food. In the present case, aggression toward the falconer might not arise at all if hand feeding didn't take place. Of course a food chute in the mews helps, but that only goes so far.

Imagine an operant method of training to fly to the fist. A raptor is rewarded everytime it approaches a human and is ulimately shaped to fly to the fist, but food is not delivered on the glove. Later flying to the fist can be put under a variable ratio schedule of reinforcement and stimulus control. We use to train redtails to fly back and forth between two falconers to prevent agression toward the glove. However, I believe it isn't as good of a solution that could be obtained using pure operant tehniques.

-- BIRD_DOG

[GregMik]

Kitana,
Maybe I was a little hard on you. The problem I see with the techniques you advocate are not necessarily the best techniques. Sure they are interesting and thought provoking, but are they the best? They work really well in a better controlled environment, such as a zoo or bird show situation. I don't see them working well in a falconry situation where the variables change from moment to moment. Not to mention actually chasing and catching something. As Mattspar and Jackmerlin will tell you most training techniques have already been invented and it is just recently that we have been able to scientifically explain how those techniques work. The old falconers had a big insight into the minds of the BOP as they lived with them day in and day out. We are just now beginning to learn, and also explain how they did things. Falconry has been around for a good long time with so many things passed down through the ages that I don't see some new technique really being better. This is why I feel that there really are simpler ways to do things than you have been trying to explain.

I really don't feel that the techniques you advocate would really transfer into falconry. When you can go out hunting with your methods and are sucsesful....Then I will take my hat off to you.

In this situation I really feel that the problem is food association, sure you could spend allot of time training on the perch with operant conditioning, where just changing how you feed would work just as good with less work.

Greg