Inbreeding

[Andy64]

Probably one for the breeders on here, but what are peoples thoughts on inbreeding or the possibilities of inbreeding in falconry,i am sure it happens in the pigeon racing world with out any harm or ill effects to the young pigeons but what about falcons or hawks, does it happen or is there the chance of having a eyass with two heads or at the very least a bop which may suffer at some stage in it`s life.
With no restrictions on bops such as the Harris Hawk any body can breed these Hawks and sell them for proffit with out the buyer knowing the birds history, does it matter or is it some thing we should be worried about!!!!!

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

Some do it just for a damn colour. Not my cup of tea.

[Barbary Boy]

a lot of breeders dont know thier own birds history m8? but a little bit of in breeding or line breeding as its known isnt all ways a bad thing?ringing returns have proved that if a wild peregrine is breeding and then something happens to it? there is a good chance that the bird that replaces it will have been reared in the very same eyrie? as long as people are as honest as they can be i dont think we should have major problems. it would be nice to have the occasional option of some fresh wild blood available though?

[Gozzhawk]

Where i stay all the birds are mutants!

[Barbary Boy]

Where i stay all the birds are mutants!
trouble is ? we dont know where you stay as you live "on the hill" wherever that may be? i think if people want to comment on here we deserve to at least know some basic info on you? refill in your profile m8? it will give a little credability to your posts!

[GregMik]

Moved.............

[Peregrine1]

Inbreeding can cause all sorts of problems, low imune system, many congentail deffects such has enlarged heart poor liver function. In the wild such hawks/ falcons with these problems, would just not hack it and nature would sort it out. I know a bit of " line breeding" goes of to pure the colour of Gyrs, not quite sure at what point line breeding becomes inbreeding but know of a strain of gyrs that seem to carry a "death gene", and a lot die :(
Just make sure when you buy a hawk or falcon that the breeder just don't use line breeding as a cover up because he or she can't be bothered to source a unrelated pair.
Regards
Colin

[MickeyDredd]

I know of at least one raptor breeder who "line breeds" . I think the closest you can safely go is father/daughter or mother/son, never brothers and sisters.

This is what happens in the wild as Barbary Boy says.

[Peregrine1]

. I think the closest you can safely go is father/daughter or mother/son,

This is what happens in the wild as Barbary Boy says.
I would not want one thats for sure!
Regards
Colin

[MickeyDredd]

I would not want one thats for sure!
Regards
Colin

Dont buy one then! ;)

[Judd Casper]

I used the father of my falcon back on to her last year and produced a cracking dark female peregrine,one of the best looking falcons I have seen to date,with all the great characteristics of her mother that I wanted.

[Stratocaster]

Cant believe that you can advocate inbreeding as close as father to daughter
and be pleased to do it, you will double up all the bad traits as well as the good, there are congenital issues, and a multitude of other problems.
Most "lines" of animals, say working dogs are very carefully bred to enhance
the good qualities but it comes with a price, health problems, temperament issues, ect.
Some "close" lines suffer from problems that are definately inherited.
Having Bred falcons on an outcross only system for many years and seen
in both dogs and Hawks the result of inbreeding I would say be very careful.
Do you really want to bring the banjo player equivalent from the film "Deliverance" into falconry?:twisted:

[AmateurAustringer]

My Harris can play a Banjo and loves making things squeal... :twisted:

[Peregrine1]

Yesterday I was only talking about inbreeding to a vet that happen's to be a falconer. He was saying he is now seeing loads of problems due to inbreeding
congenital deffects of all sorts, in the main harris hawks.
Regards
Colin

[MickeyDredd]

Yesterday I was only talking about inbreeding to a vet that happen's to be a falconer. He was saying he is now seeing loads of problems due to inbreeding
congenital deffects of all sorts, in the main harris hawks.
Regards
Colin

Will that be due to inbreeding as you say rather than line breeding though?

[Judd Casper]

with harris hawks this has been caused by the very small gene pool we originally imported into this country and have bred off ever since and this has been well documented by several authorities in the past.The falcon I have bred has nothing what so ever wrong with it except one thing its better looking than the average peregrine and fly's in the style of its mother and this is what I was trying to acheive,and its a lot more natural than hybridization.

[Altai]

a lot of breeders dont know thier own birds history m8? but a little bit of in breeding or line breeding as its known isnt all ways a bad thing?ringing returns have proved that if a wild peregrine is breeding and then something happens to it? there is a good chance that the bird that replaces it will have been reared in the very same eyrie? as long as people are as honest as they can be i dont think we should have major problems. it would be nice to have the occasional option of some fresh wild blood available though?

This is probably why traditionally falconers used to praise the abilities of peregrines from particular nest sites eg one of the Lundy sites. Ringers will be able to tell you that in the Lakes some nests always produce huge young and others small.

[Reuben]

Yesterday I was only talking about inbreeding to a vet that happen's to be a falconer. He was saying he is now seeing loads of problems due to inbreeding
congenital deffects of all sorts, in the main harris hawks.
Regards
Colin

Did he specify any of the defects in particular ?

Reuben

[Stratocaster]

Pale, pure, 2lb-14oz, feet to die for, and certainly not average, 48 days when the picture was taken, I have large dark falcons as well, field proven and 100 percent not inbred.

[Judd Casper]

Pale, pure, 2lb-14oz, feet to die for, and certainly not average, 48 days when the picture was taken, I have large dark falcons as well, field proven and 100 percent not inbred.
not for me mate to pale and to big I'll stick to my inbred beauty,any pics of your dark falcons.

[Stratocaster]

Mother and daughter, peregrinus-peregrinus, the eyass, last years will be considerably darker than her mother.

[Judd Casper]

Mother and daughter, peregrinus-peregrinus, the eyass, last years will be considerably darker than her mother.
That's more like it what weight did the eyas come out the chamber at?

[Stratocaster]

They are both imprints, the adult sits around 2lb-12oz, if parent reared would fly around 2lb-3oz, the eyass falcon is bigger, 2lb-15oz. the lines are proven
gamehawks as well, I wouldnt consider breeding from them otherwise.

[Judd Casper]

They are both imprints, the adult sits around 2lb-12oz, if parent reared would fly around 2lb-3oz, the eyass falcon is bigger, 2lb-15oz. the lines are proven
gamehawks as well, I wouldnt consider breeding from them otherwise.
Even though I like the look of the eyas she is nice, they are a little to on the large size for me.

[TiercelJim]

not for me mate to pale and to big I'll stick to my inbred beauty,any pics of your dark falcons.
Any pics of your inbred beauty?

[Peregrine1]

Dont buy one then! ;)
That will never become a option :D
Regards
Colin

[Barbary Boy]

id buy one tommorrow? you saddos dont know what your talking about?

[Peregrine1]

id buy one tommorrow? you saddos dont know what your talking about?
I take it you are breeding brother to sister farther to daughter barbarys then :D
Regards
Colin

[Barbary Boy]

I take it you are breeding brother to sister farther to daughter barbarys then :D
Regards
Colin
ive only just started breeding barbaries ? last year was my 1st success? 1 pair 4 young. this year 1 pr 6 young! but i have 6 prs and should have more pairs breeding next year, i have 7 unrelated bloodlines and have no related pairs paired up? i have gone to extreme lengths to get good unrelated pairs and it has cost me a fortune so i expect to be producing some more top class barbaries in the future?

[Peregrine1]

i have 7 unrelated bloodlines and have no related pairs paired up? i have gone to extreme lengths to get good unrelated pairs
So why the expert in inbreeding then????
Regards
Colin

[Tim Laycock]

So why the expert in inbreeding then????


I had to button my lip :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Peregrine1]

I had to button my lip :lol: :lol: :lol:
I think he needs to take more water with it :lol:
Regards
Colin

[Barbary Boy]

hes obviously not a breeder m8? just an expert on breeding!

[Shaun]

No expert on the subject but bred Gloucester canaries for several years and all are line bred.
All I ever did was line breed my canaries, I was taught by and old hand who's advice was to create a true blood line and stick with it when you get it right.

I showed canaries all over the country for 4 years and even managed to beat some of the champions. Never seen any ill health or vices in any of my birds and canaries usually drop dead for the hell of it. Was breeding 50 youngsters every season.

For all you dog lads out there, you must have heard about the Laguna Whippets, orininally bred by Mrs Mckay? There is a breeder up the road to me who has bred this strain for about 20 years or so and only believes in line breeding. People travel from all over for his dogs as far afield as Ireland because these dogs are outstanding coursing strain of whippet. A number of mates of mine have got them and all are excellent animals.
I have a blue bitch of 7 years, and everyone comments on how fine she looks. She has an amazing strong stature and again never suffered because of her breeding.

But again, I'm no expert because the subject is line breeding in falconary but if it works for canaries and dogs you can't go far wrong in my opinion.

[Altai]

Mother and daughter, peregrinus-peregrinus, the eyass, last years will be considerably darker than her mother.

Are there any Steve Marrony or Chris Southern bloodlines involved here.
Beautiful looking falcons.

[Stratocaster]

Absolutely not, I have one tiercel peregrine bred by Steve Moroney, not involved in those two birds though, the father of the eyass is falconquesters
"Arnie" a class tiercel, the mother is F1 from wild blood.
I have spent years looking for clean genetics to breed from.
rejected a good few and am very happy with the breeding stock I have.
I have five unrelated lines and will never consider inbreeding as an option.
Colin Pass has the same ideoligy and his falcons speak for themselves.
Regards Mike.

[Kentish Falconry]

Hi I have stayed out of this one and I have to say I have never knowingly Inbred or Line bred any of my Falcons and Hawks.
On the Harris Hawk side we imported fresh bloodlines from proven hunters in the USA not cheap but IMHO well worth it.
As for Falcons we can backtrack on most of our lines we have always believed that if you breed from the best stock available to you and keep it unrelated then you will breed the best that you possibly can.
I breed for size and colour as well as hunting ability and most of my birds are improveing by the year as we try different combinations, the trouble is that you don't get too many shots at it per year but by the end of the year you know if you have got it right so long as the falconer who buys the bird keeps in touch or we have to hold back birds and fly them ourselves.
I have seen the results of inbreeding especially in Feruginous Buzzards where most of the UK stock came from one pair that Phillip Glasier Imported many years ago, the last time I saw this pair they were still breeding at 25 years old I think from memory that these 2 were Brother and Sister I talked to Phillip about this pair some years ago now, and here we are 35 years down the line so what damage has been done? dodgy eyes weak hearts twisted legs etc etc and the same story goes for Harris Hawks although quite a few more were Imported, it has been imposible to tell if you are Inbreeding as you don't even have to ring the chicks legally although most breeders do.
Terry

[Judd Casper]

id buy one tommorrow? you saddos dont know what your talking about?
I'll keep you in mind then Keith,you know what makes me really giggle about this.Is some of those who are taking the moral high ground are churning out hybreds mongrels for a better word,but that's OK and they would cross a peregrine with a parrot if it would get them a few more quid in the bank. I don't know people in glass houses and all that.I bred this hawk because I wanted to fly something as near as damm to her mother as I could get and I think I have acheived this in size colour flight stlye etc and I haven't bred a **** load and sold them to all comers like some would.

[Judd Casper]

Absolutely not, I have one tiercel peregrine bred by Steve Moroney, not involved in those two birds though, the father of the eyass is falconquesters
"Arnie" a class tiercel, the mother is F1 from wild blood.
I have spent years looking for clean genetics to breed from.
rejected a good few and am very happy with the breeding stock I have.
I have five unrelated lines and will never consider inbreeding as an option.
Colin Pass has the same ideoligy and his falcons speak for themselves.
Regards Mike.
What defines a class tiercel? quarry caught size shape colour just curious.

[Stratocaster]

flight style, mounting, intelligence, temperament, need I go on? you are an
experienced falconer, you know what a class bird is,
I have seen the bird in the flesh, his background is pure and the progeny
produced are class.
not mass produced, bred to improve the stock I have.
my aproach is different than yours, I wouldnt condone family sex.

[Peregrine1]

id buy one tommorrow? you saddos dont know what your talking about?
I think we might have got our threads crossed :( sorry Barbary Boy if that is the case.
Regards
Colin

[Judd Casper]

flight style, mounting, intelligence, temperament, need I go on? you are an
experienced falconer, you know what a class bird is,
I have seen the bird in the flesh, his background is pure and the progeny
produced are class.
not mass produced, bred to improve the stock I have.
my aproach is different than yours, I wouldnt condone family sex.
Not as experienced as you I couldn't look in Arnies imprint pen and see all the above what you seen.Size and shape yeah but that's about it.

[Judd Casper]

Hi I have stayed out of this one and I have to say I have never knowingly Inbred or Line bred any of my Falcons and Hawks.
On the Harris Hawk side we imported fresh bloodlines from proven hunters in the USA not cheap but IMHO well worth it.
As for Falcons we can backtrack on most of our lines we have always believed that if you breed from the best stock available to you and keep it unrelated then you will breed the best that you possibly can.
I breed for size and colour as well as hunting ability and most of my birds are improveing by the year as we try different combinations, the trouble is that you don't get too many shots at it per year but by the end of the year you know if you have got it right so long as the falconer who buys the bird keeps in touch or we have to hold back birds and fly them ourselves.
I have seen the results of inbreeding especially in Feruginous Buzzards where most of the UK stock came from one pair that Phillip Glasier Imported many years ago, the last time I saw this pair they were still breeding at 25 years old I think from memory that these 2 were Brother and Sister I talked to Phillip about this pair some years ago now, and here we are 35 years down the line so what damage has been done? dodgy eyes weak hearts twisted legs etc etc and the same story goes for Harris Hawks although quite a few more were Imported, it has been imposible to tell if you are Inbreeding as you don't even have to ring the chicks legally although most breeders do.
Terry
Hi Terry
Glad you brought this up about Glasiers ferruginous,but i think it was over several generations of birds being bought and bred from before any defects were noticed enough were flown and hunted with and all seemed OK untill futher down the line.No defects should come one breeding of father to daughter,problems would only occur if i continually bred from them and there offspring and never introduced any new blood.

[Stratocaster]

I didnt look in the pen and make any assumptions, the line that Arnie was
bred from have a reputation for producing gamehawks, Having spoken to people who had seen him fly and seen one of his offspring fly several times
I decided to try using him into my falcon, the results speak for themselves,
last years female I am flying is as good an eyass peregrine I have seen fly.
First season having been kite trained she takes 7-800 foot pitches, is not
checky and takes cock pheasants with ease,
I put this down to using birds for breeding that are proven in the discipline
I was looking for.
I do my research before using any bird for breeding, remember if they couldnt
cut the mustard in their first year in the wild they wouldnt survive.
The fact that they are dark is secondary to me, flying ability first and foremost.

[Kentish Falconry]

Hi Terry
Glad you brought this up about Glasiers ferruginous,but i think it was over several generations of birds being bought and bred from before any defects were noticed enough were flown and hunted with and all seemed OK untill futher down the line.No defects should come one breeding of father to daughter,problems would only occur if i continually bred from them and there offspring and never introduced any new blood.

There seems to be a tendancy with Linebred/Inbred birds to suffer some small deficencies that are not normally attributed to how they were produced from the information I have recieved these birds can suffer from bone weakness or a tendancy to get Bumblefoot easier than normal some lethargy will exist so you get a lack of tenacity when in a hunting situation they can also suffer from poorer than normal vision and sometime heart weakness.
I cannot comment on this from first hand experiance because as I have said I do not linebreed or inbreed my birds but this is information I have been given over a number of years from American and European Breeders. However Inbreeding in the wild can and does exist but we have no way of telling if there is anything detrimental with the chicks as we are not in constant contact with these birds like we are with our captive bred Falcons.
Have you found any of these tendacies in your birds?
Terry

[MickeyDredd]

On the Harris Hawk side we imported fresh bloodlines from proven hunters in the USA not cheap but IMHO well worth it.


Just a thought though, with HH living in family groups in the wild is there not a high probability of line breeding in their natural state?

[Judd Casper]

[QUOTE=Stratocaster]I didnt look in the pen and make any assumptions, the line that Arnie was
bred from have a reputation for producing gamehawks, Having spoken to people who had seen him fly and seen one of his offspring fly several times
I decided to try using him into my falcon, the results speak for themselves,
last years female I am flying is as good an eyass peregrine I have seen fly.
First season having been kite trained she takes 7-800 foot pitches, is not
checky and takes cock pheasants with ease,
I put this down to using birds for breeding that are proven in the discipline
I was looking for.
I do my research before using any bird for breeding, remember if they couldnt
cut the mustard in their first year in the wild they wouldnt survive.
The fact that they are dark is secondary to me, flying ability first and foremost.[/QUOTE
and Arnie was a proven game hawk with disipline yeah right my granny's budgie has got more air miles on the clock than Arnie.

[Stratocaster]

Do I detect just the slightest hint of jealousy there? may be just my
imagination. Is it possible we could do d adeal on semen from your
grannies budgie then?:lol:

[Judd Casper]

Do I detect just the slightest hint of jealousy there? may be just my
imagination. Is it possible we could do d adeal on semen from your
grannies budgie then?:lol:
Like i said mate my grannies budgie has got more air miles fact not fiction unlike Arnies game hawking ability get Colin to tell you the truth if that's possible.
ps mate its a shame you didn't have any 800ft cock pheasant killers when you worked for Garly you wasn't killing anything with anything on that ground and its stuffed with quarry.Trouble is with bull**** and bull****ers they get found out.

[Stratocaster]

It is a real shame, as I said the proof of the potency of the bird you seem to
have an issue with is in his eyasses.
I make no excuses to you regarding Garlands, as you say im a bull****ter.
like the falcon you fly, how long did it take you to make it? three seasons?
you have never had by your own admission a "natural" bird, even the tiercel
murdoch was trained by someone else, something I would never do,
Dont make assumptions on something you know very little about, ie
my time at garlands,
this goes away from the threads original purpose to discuss the pros and
cons of inbreeding, Its a shame sam, if you were a nicer guy I would have
given you a natural peregrine.

[Judd Casper]

It is a real shame, as I said the proof of the potency of the bird you seem to
have an issue with is in his eyasses.
I make no excuses to you regarding Garlands, as you say im a bull****ter.
like the falcon you fly, how long did it take you to make it? three seasons?
you have never had by your own admission a "natural" bird, even the tiercel
murdoch was trained by someone else, something I would never do,
Dont make assumptions on something you know very little about, ie
my time at garlands,
this goes away from the threads original purpose to discuss the pros and
cons of inbreeding, Its a shame sam, if you were a nicer guy I would have
given you a natural peregrine.
By make it she was flying high and well and killing game in her first year but not from 800ft though, but my pitches are like my hawks weight acurate where do you and Colin get your scales from,she has just got better with age like they all do, you know that if you had any real game hawking experience.As for Murdoch he was giving his old owner some real problems with wood pigeons.He was going to chuck the towel in with him and I turned him around and the rest is history.Now he is what i would call a proven game hawk unlike some i could mention.As for the free natural peregrine you would have given me if i was a nice guy stick it where the sun don't shine I would sooner speak the truth than have to listen to bull****. 47oz eyas my ****,that's the so called tiercel you sent down to Colin that turned into a small falcon.Like i said mate the truth will come out.

[Grey_Squirrel_Hawker]

line breeding fir one or two generations in cage birds and pigeons works as these birds are designed to breed quickly and have a wide gene pool, hence there is no harm for one or two generations. i used to breed zebra finches in an aviary and would jus let them choose their own partners and had all sorts of rlated pairings, and in the F1 the young were always outstanding quality but every gen after, the quality deteriorated until new blood was brought in.

raptors however are not built to breed quickly and do not have as diverse a gene pool, even in the wild. continualy close breeding within related birds just asks for problems! although they will occasionaly breed close in the wild, it is not a common occurance nor is it prolonged through several generations.

nature knows best and when we start screwing around with that just to produce a particular look or colour then we are asking for trouble.
it dont mater what the bird looks like, as long as it works. in my opinion if someone breeds closely rlated birds to produce specific colours to supply all those bloody possers out there that make our sport look a circus, then they should give up the raptors and breed canaries! they are bred for their colour and shape, thats not what falcons are for!!!!

[Peregrine1]

"Arnie" was flown at tame hack and then to the kite for his first full season, In that time he took a few head of game . He then remained in the pen untill he gave semen at two, because of the fear of having to replace him. Not as its anybodys business but mine.
Regards
Colin

[Stratocaster]

Dear me, it seems that personal insults are your way of dealing with things.
It was no secret that the bird I sent to Colin went as a tiercel and turned
out to be a small falcon. cant really see the relavance to the thread?
check out the pic posted with this reply, in your "limited" experience as
a breeder what assumption would you have made? there is one day between
them.
I never claimed all the birds I breed are large, the falcon I am flying now is
1lb-13oz, again no secret.
the eyass in the picture is the bird I posted yesterday, she is as big as I
say.
regarding bull**** all I would say is having seen the various DVDs with the
falcon you forced with her own father, if thats the finished article then
why breed from her? let alone subject her to inceste,
regarding the truth will come out? what truth?
this again is so far from the original thread, but how can you defend what
is against the law in people? the general concencus in breeding comlex
birds that are to be used for falconry is to outcross the best you can find
to the best. natural selection has the same principles.

[Stratocaster]

Have to say I agree with you 100 percent squirrel hawker:supz: :supz:

[Kentish Falconry]

OK Guys that is enough of the personal slagging. This has the makeings of a good thread so I will not close it. If you have any personal Problems deal with them by PM not on the open Forum. Thank you Terry

[Grey_Squirrel_Hawker]

Have to say I agree with you 100 percent squirrel hawker:supz: :supz:


cheers:supz:
i at least like to think i talk sence, having bred cage birds for 12 years before getting into falcory, i got a good back ground knowlage of genetics, and i know what works and what dont in species which are designed to breed quickly, and inbreeding dont work well in domesticated strains of cage birds for prolonged generations. therefor it cannot be of any benefit for undomesticated birds that dont breed quickly or have a diverse gene pool.
raptors are wild birds (regardless of how many generations captive bred) they are not domestic animals and therfor should not be trated as such.
like i said, if someone wants to breed for colour and shape, take up canaries, there are infinate varieties and colour forms!

[MickeyDredd]

Going back to the fact that in the wild a breeding peregrine which dies could be replaced by a bird bred at that nest site, therefore then breeds with parent. presumably this would be okay and wouldnt produce defective falcons i.e. would effectively be "line-bred", but if brother and sister bred then the defective young wouldnt survive to breed or raise further defective birds therefore the defective line would die out.

so long as any captive breeder followed the same principle surely then this would not cause problems with the captive bred birds.

??

[Grey_Squirrel_Hawker]

Going back to the fact that in the wild a breeding peregrine which dies could be replaced by a bird bred at that nest site, therefore then breeds with parent. presumably this would be okay and wouldnt produce defective falcons i.e. would effectively be "line-bred", but if brother and sister bred then the defective young wouldnt survive to breed or raise further defective birds therefore the defective line would die out.

so long as any captive breeder followed the same principle surely then this would not cause problems with the captive bred birds.

??

yes but my point being it dont happen on a regular basis and dont happen for many consecutive generations! for one or mabey two gen it may not cause any obvious problems, but further down the line it begs trouble!

[Judd Casper]

cheers:supz:
i at least like to think i talk sence, having bred cage birds for 12 years before getting into falcory, i got a good back ground knowlage of genetics, and i know what works and what dont in species which are designed to breed quickly, and inbreeding dont work well in domesticated strains of cage birds for prolonged generations. therefor it cannot be of any benefit for undomesticated birds that dont breed quickly or have a diverse gene pool.
raptors are wild birds (regardless of how many generations captive bred) they are not domestic animals and therfor should not be trated as such.
like i said, if someone wants to breed for colour and shape, take up canaries, there are infinate varieties and colour forms!
so what are you saying the falcon i have bred at some point in the future the wheels are going to fall off it. yeah right

[MickeyDredd]

yes but my point being it dont happen on a regular basis and dont happen for many consecutive generations! for one or mabey two gen it may not cause any obvious problems, but further down the line it begs trouble!

Agreed, my point is that those that know what they are doing could therefore in theory line breed once. As long as they ensure their lines are maintained there would therefore be no defective birds produced - again in theory!

Nobody on here has advocated constantly inbreeding

[Judd Casper]

OK Guys that is enough of the personal slagging. This has the makeings of a good thread so I will not close it. If you have any personal Problems deal with them by PM not on the open Forum. Thank you Terry
Terry will do for me i think i got my point across.
whats the saying don't **** down my neck and tell me its raining.nuff said

[Grey_Squirrel_Hawker]

so what are you saying the falcon i have bred at some point in the future the wheels are going to fall off it. yeah right

some problems can take several years to manifest themselves, and only become apparent in adult life.
for example, gloster canaries are prone to feather cysts, caused by too many generations of inbreeding, and they often dont occur untill the 2nd moult. it just so happens that the cysts are for the most part, harmless, but the same idea could be applied to falcons.

what im saying is that nature knows best, they dont inbreed on a regular basis in the wild nor for many generations. falcons are not domesticated animals, lets keep it that way!

[Grey_Squirrel_Hawker]

Agreed, my point is that those that know what they are doing could therefore in theory line breed once. As long as they ensure their lines are maintained there would therefore be no defective birds produced - again in theory!

Nobody on here has advocated constantly inbreeding


true, sorry, not trying to start an argument with ya.
my idae was that raptors dont have as diverse a gene pool as small fast breeding species and as such, any level of inbreeding COULD cause problems, in theory!

[Judd Casper]

Agreed, my point is that those that know what they are doing could therefore in theory line breed once. As long as they ensure their lines are maintained there would therefore be no defective birds produced - again in theory!

Nobody on here has advocated constantly inbreeding
your so right it was a one off ,the falcon in question is going in with a totally unrelated tiercel,but it was a one off that i think turned out pretty well.

[Judd Casper]

some problems can take several years to manifest themselves, and only become apparent in adult life.
for example, gloster canaries are prone to feather cysts, caused by too many generations of inbreeding, and they often dont occur untill the 2nd moult. it just so happens that the cysts are for the most part, harmless, but the same idea could be applied to falcons.

what im saying is that nature knows best, they dont inbreed on a regular basis in the wild nor for many generations. falcons are not domesticated animals, lets keep it that way!
If nature knows best why are we breeding hybreds?

[GameHawker]

yeah right my granny's budgie has got more air miles on the clock than Arnie.[/QUOTE]

classic quote that mate will have to remember that for the future.

Carl:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Judd Casper]

Probably one for the breeders on here, but what are peoples thoughts on inbreeding or the possibilities of inbreeding in falconry,i am sure it happens in the pigeon racing world with out any harm or ill effects to the young pigeons but what about falcons or hawks, does it happen or is there the chance of having a eyass with two heads or at the very least a bop which may suffer at some stage in it`s life.
With no restrictions on bops such as the Harris Hawk any body can breed these Hawks and sell them for proffit with out the buyer knowing the birds history, does it matter or is it some thing we should be worried about!!!!!
A good friend of mine asked this question some time back to the UK's most famous gamehawker who also happens to breed peregrines and pointers.His reply was If you breed something and it goes right its line breeding and if it goes wrong its inbreeding, now i think that's a classic quote and it will do for me.As this guy has got more air miles with falcons than all the worlds air lines put together.

[Tim Laycock]

If its deliberate its line breeding if its accidental its inbreeding.

Wether it goes tits up or not has little, if anything to do with it :yawinkle:

[FalconMistress]

Inbreeding can cause serious defects in the young. Trouble happens like they get problems with the heart and other vital organs or more outer defects like size.
Inbreeding may not always show until the second generation say if you have a pair who was brother and sister and the babys from that young and used a male and female from the same clutch then there you will more than likely notice the defects.

[MickeyDredd]

Inbreeding may not always show until the second generation say if you have a pair who was brother and sister and the babys from that young and used a male and female from the same clutch then there you will more than likely notice the defects.

Nobody is advocating breeding brother and sister though, that is certainly not line breeding.

[Grey_Squirrel_Hawker]

If nature knows best why are we breeding hybreds?

good question? why are we breeding hybrids??

hybrids dont occur in the wild. hybrids have their virtues but they have their vices as well, like any bird.
i have found that alot of hybrids are being bred because they are fasionable, not neccisarily because they are better than purebreds, and i would imagine that it is not long before we strt to see folk exibiting hybrids on the show bench along side the other frankenstein monsters that domestication has produced!

im not against hybrids, i just think that hybrids are often bred for the wrong reasons!

i ment no offence in the first place, i was simply expressing my opinion.

[Judd Casper]

good question? why are we breeding hybrids??

hybrids dont occur in the wild. hybrids have their virtues but they have their vices as well, like any bird.
i have found that alot of hybrids are being bred because they are fasionable, not neccisarily because they are better than purebreds, and i would imagine that it is not long before we strt to see folk exibiting hybrids on the show bench along side the other frankenstein monsters that domestication has produced!

im not against hybrids, i just think that hybrids are often bred for the wrong reasons!

i ment no offence in the first place, i was simply expressing my opinion.
No offence taken,I agree with you about hybrids having their vices and their virtues,we have to be careful of creating hybrids that take away the fine sporting balance nature has created.

Sam

[Grey_Squirrel_Hawker]

No offence taken,I agree with you about hybrids having their vices and their virtues,we have to be careful of creating hybrids that take away the fine sporting balance nature has created.

Sam


:supz: lol! my point exactly! :supz: :supz:

[StoopDoggyDogg]

he's already here ive seen him

Cant believe that you can advocate inbreeding as close as father to daughter
and be pleased to do it, you will double up all the bad traits as well as the good, there are congenital issues, and a multitude of other problems.
Most "lines" of animals, say working dogs are very carefully bred to enhance
the good qualities but it comes with a price, health problems, temperament issues, ect.
Some "close" lines suffer from problems that are definately inherited.
Having Bred falcons on an outcross only system for many years and seen
in both dogs and Hawks the result of inbreeding I would say be very careful.
Do you really want to bring the banjo player equivalent from the film "Deliverance" into falconry?:twisted:

[Intek Hosting]

I've spent the last 4 years trying to breed a wild green coloured Red Fronted Kakariki with black feet, but black nails from captive bred stock.
So far I've managed as close as one white and one black foot with all black nails and one with black feet and 7 black nails, but one white nail (so close!!)

I've probably produced over 200 birds in the process of trying to get back to the original wild colouring and I aint managed it yet :-(

What I have found is most Kakariki carrying the pied gene (yellow feathers) will be dead before its second birthday. I have one that's coming on three years old, but she's more cinnamon dominant than pied. (one tail feather is yellow)
All the pied birds show just as much vigour and activity as the green and cinnamon birds, but I've not seen a pied bird take on the top male role in the group, its always either a cinnamon or wild green bird.

For obvious reasons I dont sell Pied Kakariki (though lots of breeders do)
I have given away 4 pied birds in the past having explained that the bird carries a genertic defect and will probably die. In all four cases the owners got attached to the bird and it died.

The pied gene was "developed/produced" in captivity by breeding members of the same family, mums and sons, dad's and daughters, even brother and sister.

I know one breeder who obsessively breeds family members, and while he does get similar deaths he wont admit it has anything to do with the genes. Based on what I've observed with both his breeding and my own I would say you can inbreed birds (kakariki in this case) for a number of generations without any visible deformity. The problem is long before you get deformities you will have dormant gene problems that will show up in either the reproduction of the birds (some of jeff's birds only lay infertile eggs, no matter which male they are put with) or manifest itself as strange deaths that cannot be explained by any normal explantion.

I've given up paying for autopsies as they can never tell me why the bird died.
Basically I've found I get the best results (longgevity, general health and reproductive success) if I breed completely unrelated birds than by allowing related birds to breed.

One thing I will say in favour of the mutants(pied Kakariki) , they seen to make really good adoptive parents and will often foster other birds babies if they notice a pair have two nests on the go, even if they are not breeding at all themselves.

[StoopDoggyDogg]

Line breeding is where the two parents share common ancestors

inbreeding is where the two parents are closely related


I have first hand evidence of inbreeding resulting in deformities. A tiercel which was a result of a father to daughter mating being paired with a female whose grand parents on its mothers side were the same grand parents as the tiercel on its fathers side and also the great grand parents on the tiercels mothers side. The two offspring were tiny and one had a concave ribcage which was pressing into the heart and lungs. It also had only one pectoral muscle which obviously would of rendered it flightless if it had indeed lived. Both birds were dead before 20 days old due to pasturellosis. The post mortem concluded that the physical fault was genetic and almost certainly due to inbreeding, without the vet knowing the family history.


The bottom line is in my opinion, if the breeder tells you the parents are related then it's fine. You pay your money and you take your chance. i didn't get that chance, but i did get a refund.


The truth:rolleyes:


p.s. Before someone replies it is a one off, i have loads of other second hand evidence and documentation to back it up.






I know of at least one raptor breeder who "line breeds" . I think the closest you can safely go is father/daughter or mother/son, never brothers and sisters.

This is what happens in the wild as Barbary Boy says.

[StoopDoggyDogg]

I don't want to start an argument but on another thread Re; gyr x pere females being fertile. You admitted to line breeding your gyrs, which i considered to be inbreeding. You explained that you had difficulty getting Gyrs into the country. so you linebred your gyrs.


The Truth :rolleyes:






Hi I have stayed out of this one and I have to say I have never knowingly Inbred or Line bred any of my Falcons and Hawks.
On the Harris Hawk side we imported fresh bloodlines from proven hunters in the USA not cheap but IMHO well worth it.
As for Falcons we can backtrack on most of our lines we have always believed that if you breed from the best stock available to you and keep it unrelated then you will breed the best that you possibly can.
I breed for size and colour as well as hunting ability and most of my birds are improveing by the year as we try different combinations, the trouble is that you don't get too many shots at it per year but by the end of the year you know if you have got it right so long as the falconer who buys the bird keeps in touch or we have to hold back birds and fly them ourselves.
I have seen the results of inbreeding especially in Feruginous Buzzards where most of the UK stock came from one pair that Phillip Glasier Imported many years ago, the last time I saw this pair they were still breeding at 25 years old I think from memory that these 2 were Brother and Sister I talked to Phillip about this pair some years ago now, and here we are 35 years down the line so what damage has been done? dodgy eyes weak hearts twisted legs etc etc and the same story goes for Harris Hawks although quite a few more were Imported, it has been imposible to tell if you are Inbreeding as you don't even have to ring the chicks legally although most breeders do.
Terry

[SnakeHuts]

As stoopdog says line breeding is safe, inbreeding is out and out stupidity.

Welsh Cobs and ponies have been line bred for generations to establish consitent type, confirmation etc. with great success, as many dog lines are too but sometimes individual go too far and great genetic deformities by breeding too close, line breeding is very simple to do just takes a long time with BOP due to the age to sexual maturity, but no inbreeding please.

[Kentish Falconry]

I don't want to start an argument but on another thread Re; gyr x pere females being fertile. You admitted to line breeding your gyrs, which i considered to be inbreeding. You explained that you had difficulty getting Gyrs into the country. so you linebred your gyrs.



The Truth :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by Kentish Falconry
Hi I have stayed out of this one and I have to say I have never knowingly Inbred or Line bred any of my Falcons and Hawks.
On the Harris Hawk side we imported fresh bloodlines from proven hunters in the USA not cheap but IMHO well worth it.
As for Falcons we can backtrack on most of our lines we have always believed that if you breed from the best stock available to you and keep it unrelated then you will breed the best that you possibly can.
I breed for size and colour as well as hunting ability and most of my birds are improveing by the year as we try different combinations, the trouble is that you don't get too many shots at it per year but by the end of the year you know if you have got it right so long as the falconer who buys the bird keeps in touch or we have to hold back birds and fly them ourselves.
I have seen the results of inbreeding especially in Feruginous Buzzards where most of the UK stock came from one pair that Phillip Glasier Imported many years ago, the last time I saw this pair they were still breeding at 25 years old I think from memory that these 2 were Brother and Sister I talked to Phillip about this pair some years ago now, and here we are 35 years down the line so what damage has been done? dodgy eyes weak hearts twisted legs etc etc and the same story goes for Harris Hawks although quite a few more were Imported, it has been imposible to tell if you are Inbreeding as you don't even have to ring the chicks legally although most breeders do.
Terry

Where did I say I line bred my Gyr Falcons? or even inbred them? I think you had better reread the post or highlight it for me and I will clarify it for you. I go to great lengths to breed from unrelated pairs and if I ever see a problem then I split the pair up. You highlighted the above post what is the relevence to your assertations.
Terry

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

good question? why are we breeding hybrids??

hybrids dont occur in the wild. hybrids have their virtues but they have their vices as well, like any bird.
i have found that alot of hybrids are being bred because they are fasionable, not neccisarily because they are better than purebreds, and i would imagine that it is not long before we strt to see folk exibiting hybrids on the show bench along side the other frankenstein monsters that domestication has produced!

im not against hybrids, i just think that hybrids are often bred for the wrong reasons!

i ment no offence in the first place, i was simply expressing my opinion.
Just being perdantic but hybrids do occur in nature. Gyr/Saker are reasonably common, also Peregrine/Barbary are documented.

[Venividevenatio]

However Inbreeding in the wild can and does exist but we have no way of telling if there is anything detrimental with the chicks as we are not in constant contact with these birds like we are with our captive bred Falcons.


Terry

There are some clues as to the detrimental effcts of wild birds naturaly inbreeding....... if there are any detrimental effects, the offspring do not survive through the natural selection process.
If the inbreeding produces a positive result, natural selection means they survive to pass on their genes.

This may not happen with irresponsible captive breeding, poor specimens are protected by humans from the ruthless natural selction process of the wild.

However, a scientific approach to line breeding can be benificial. Look at the Thouroughbred horse. (aka Racehorse). All Racehorses in the world can be traced back to the 3 foundation sires some 300 years ago. That is a relativly short period.
There have been terrible errors but stunning success as well.

I know little of raptor propagation, but I understand from learned people that the rules of genetics are not species sensitive.

So I would advocate that responsible breeding should largley be conducted with known unrelated pairs, until one way or another more genetic information is available.
I am afraid a golden opportunity was missed at the time of the origional wild take in 1987. ( date?)

[StoopDoggyDogg]

I cant find the post where i thought you said you linebred your gyrs, it was on the thread about female gyr peres being fertile.
But ney bother, i'll take your word for it. To be honest i have no records of inbreeding in gyrs but i've only looked into 3 birds historys from 3 uk breeders.
Peregrines are a different story all together though.
Something i've noticed that when a peregrine has for instance barbary in its breeding it is not shown on the registration document or the A10 when it becomes an eigth babary or less. which in someways is a good thing because it brings in a bit of genetic diversity, i'd prefer to fly one with a bit of barbary in it, but if i thought i was breeding pure peregrinus and i bred some tiny little pale things i wouldn't be too happy.



Do your 7/8ths gyrs show saker on there documents ??


Cheers

Steve

:heart:






Originally Posted by Kentish Falconry
Hi I have stayed out of this one and I have to say I have never knowingly Inbred or Line bred any of my Falcons and Hawks.
On the Harris Hawk side we imported fresh bloodlines from proven hunters in the USA not cheap but IMHO well worth it.
As for Falcons we can backtrack on most of our lines we have always believed that if you breed from the best stock available to you and keep it unrelated then you will breed the best that you possibly can.
I breed for size and colour as well as hunting ability and most of my birds are improveing by the year as we try different combinations, the trouble is that you don't get too many shots at it per year but by the end of the year you know if you have got it right so long as the falconer who buys the bird keeps in touch or we have to hold back birds and fly them ourselves.
I have seen the results of inbreeding especially in Feruginous Buzzards where most of the UK stock came from one pair that Phillip Glasier Imported many years ago, the last time I saw this pair they were still breeding at 25 years old I think from memory that these 2 were Brother and Sister I talked to Phillip about this pair some years ago now, and here we are 35 years down the line so what damage has been done? dodgy eyes weak hearts twisted legs etc etc and the same story goes for Harris Hawks although quite a few more were Imported, it has been imposible to tell if you are Inbreeding as you don't even have to ring the chicks legally although most breeders do.
Terry

Where did I say I line bred my Gyr Falcons? or even inbred them? I think you had better reread the post or highlight it for me and I will clarify it for you. I go to great lengths to breed from unrelated pairs and if I ever see a problem then I split the pair up. You highlighted the above post what is the relevence to your assertations.
Terry

[Kentish Falconry]

I cant find the post where i thought you said you linebred your gyrs, it was on the thread about female gyr peres being fertile.
But ney bother, i'll take your word for it. To be honest i have no records of inbreeding in gyrs but i've only looked into 3 birds historys from 3 uk breeders.
Peregrines are a different story all together though.
Something i've noticed that when a peregrine has for instance barbary in its breeding it is not shown on the registration document or the A10 when it becomes an eigth babary or less. which in someways is a good thing because it brings in a bit of genetic diversity, i'd prefer to fly one with a bit of barbary in it, but if i thought i was breeding pure peregrinus and i bred some tiny little pale things i wouldn't be too happy.



Do your 7/8ths gyrs show saker on there documents ??


Cheers

Steve

:heart:

All my Gyrs are pure and those not bred here were Imported from reliable sources.
As for 7/8 gyr yes their papers do show that they are 7/8 and when I breed 15/16th I will also make sure I show that info as well.
As I said before on your other post I know in my Peregrine stock that I have 2 1/8th Barbary and this is shown on the documents and chicks bred from this pairing also show Barbary
Terry

[Saker Mad]

now now gents lets not get into this again ehh lets kiss and make and live a happy flowery life

[Red-Devil]

terry imagine a stud book for goshawks peres gyrs etc etc save a load of time money if it was done right .no

[Venividevenatio]

Following my reply to the below in thread Perigrine Studbook, I have copie across to this thread to refer to further thoughts on the matter as it was pointed out the origional thread was going off track. Sorry guys!



Quote:
Originally Posted by falcon77
To put a slightly different angle on this, as at 15/11/05, DEFRA had 2231 peregrines registered on its database, of these, 144 are wild disabled and 79 are imported, the remainder are captive bred within the UK. Remembering that we have not had a wild take for a very long time, the figures above show that we have been using the same, slowly expanding, but still restricted gene pools to produce our hawks for a long time (20 years). This alone is a good indication of a restrictive breeding gene pool dont you think?Quote

Quote
As i understand it there are maybe a similiar number of wild peregrines resident in the UK having increased from far lower numbersQuote

To follow your argument this figure shows that in the wild the peregrine falcon have been using the same, slowly expanding, but still restricted gene pools to produce peregrines for a long time (since DDT etc in the 1960s) This alone is a good indication of a restrictive breeding gene pool dont you think? Quote

Quote
[Nice idea, but the wild peregrine gene pool is subject to the unforgiving process of natural selection. If they are not good enough, they die before sexual maturity. The poor quality genes do not then breed on.
The captive bred peregrine is not subjected to such ruthless testing, and usualy recieves a little human help in sickness and bad times.]Quote




It is also worth considering, that within captive breeding, we have birds of unproven ability, as well as proven hunters being bred from. In both cases the birds may be with or without a good hunting pedigree.

Now , it is likely that there are birds being bred from, that would not have survived in the wild, but have been flown and hunted by an expert falconer, who has brought out the best possible from the bird.
And likewise, there are captive bred birds that would have been highly succesful in the wild, but because of the inadequecies of a poor falconer, they have been poor hunters within falconry, and not bred from or died, and a potentialy important set of genes is lost.

So how do we iron out this out and breed from the best?

In the racing world (the Racehorse starting from a small gene base as captive BoP) it is a little easier, because the performance on the track is a bench mark. Sure there are trainers/jockeys that are better than others, but the gaps between the best and worst are smaller than within our sport.

Trainers/jockeys do it for a living and if unseccesful they do not survive the test---------a further analogy?

There is still provision within the law to allow a wild take, and we should never allow that to be rescinded. The wild population is, with our current methods of breeding, the only FULLY TESTED reserve gene pool that we have. So captive breeding must produce as succesful a gene pool itself, so that should some disaster happen in the wild, we are able to restock the wild from captive bred birds that have a good chance of wild survival.

Have you ever wondered why with all the lost birds from falconry, we, as competent hawk spotters see so few of them? (See IBR lists.)
They die.

[Kentish Falconry]

now now gents lets not get into this again ehh lets kiss and make and live a happy flowery life

Sorry Petal :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Saker Mad]

its quite ok sweety (roflmao)

[Sokoly]

cheers:supz:
i at least like to think i talk sence, having bred cage birds for 12 years before getting into falcory, i got a good back ground knowlage of genetics, and i know what works and what dont in species which are designed to breed quickly, and inbreeding dont work well in domesticated strains of cage birds for prolonged generations. therefor it cannot be of any benefit for undomesticated birds that dont breed quickly or have a diverse gene pool.
raptors are wild birds (regardless of how many generations captive bred) they are not domestic animals and therfor should not be trated as such.
like i said, if someone wants to breed for colour and shape, take up canaries, there are infinate varieties and colour forms!

This is very interesting mate, I myself have bred most of the hybreds in finch world and crossed them with canaryes too. Let me remind you that all of todays canaries have their ancestry in the wild canary. Just like our falcons come from nature.Most of them have a very narrow closely related origin.On the other side I race pigeons and I graduated Lifestock production. Most of the breeds are made of mixes or inbreeding to receive a better traits. By closely inbreeding falcons you can support a trait but the most important thing is to stop the inbreeding after you rich the desired trait and keep on breeding out of the family to refresh the "blood"-to put some new genes into the picture.This is very important because you need to take care not only on the looks of the bird but their genotype-everything you can't see. Her internal organs, her character, immune system etc. I don't have any experiance in inbreeding falcons but If done corectly I am quite positive that it can lead to some very nice, healthy birds. On the other side if you do inbreeding you have to be very carefull not to overdo it because it can lead to all sorts of problems.Inbreed only from the best specimens. This is my genetically speaking point of view. The moral side of it is something else.It's true that some breeders only to get a few bucks more on their acounts would breed anything to evrything.By doing that they are destroying the worthy elements of the birds and they are making debilitated birds that one day would not be able to leave without a man by their side.Just like the storry is with some dog breeds.They are not able to find their own food and can't take care of themselfs. Lets not forget that falcons are wild birds of pray and lets not make a profit driven hobby turn into a FIASCO. The falcons are the most beautifull just as they are, no need to make them in all sorts shapes and colours-it's simply not natural.
Sokoly