What happened in the past??

[Ben C]

What did they do before the folks in the USA and the early pioneers of the kite do to gain height with their falcons? Or for that matter what was the contex and history of the kite/balloon being used. Who was the first person to do it and what was their inspiration?

[Falconry Equipment International]

Fieldcraft! we still use it today:rolleyes: positioning your hawk/ the flush in acertaqin way so as to reward it with a flush that the hawk can make contact with if it is doing what you require and vice versa if not. I beleive the 1st person to write about using the Kite in the US was Dave Scaboro, you know the 1st in the uk :yawinkle: but to my knowledge the 1st person using the kite in the uk was John Stickfuss HTh

[Kentish Falconry]

Fieldcraft! we still use it today:rolleyes: positioning your hawk/ the flush in acertaqin way so as to reward it with a flush that the hawk can make contact with if it is doing what you require and vice versa if not. I beleive the 1st person to write about using the Kite in the US was Dave Scaboro, you know the 1st in the uk :yawinkle: but to my knowledge the 1st person using the kite in the uk was John Stickfuss HTh

We used to use long lureing to train our Falcons to gain height in the old days but you don't see many falconers using this method these days, the Kite method made it too easy.
Not sure if it was John S who was first to use the Kite as a training Aid in the UK I thought it was Dave Myatt in Lincolnshire that was first, but I may be wrong
Terry

[Gaz]

[http://www.deltas.freeserve.co.uk/dlaustr.html ] Have a goose at this Ben...

[Dean]

What did they do before the folks in the USA and the early pioneers of the kite do to gain height with their falcons? Or for that matter what was the contex and history of the kite/balloon being used. Who was the first person to do it and what was their inspiration?
I should imagine their first inspiration were failures and decided they needed differing techniques!A gamehawk is trained to gain height and position using its natural hunting methods,Once the falcon is doing this and taking quarry on the stoop it is made,it cannot be bettered no matter what we try,we can mess all we like,the outcome remains the same!

[Falconer1000]

great topic dose anyone know of anyone who has trained other species to the kite aside from falcons?

[Yarak]

As passagers were used it stands to reason the best pitch was learned prior to capture. The demand for more altitude became more significant with imprints and CB birds because they lacked the education. Just a thought.
Yarak

[MitchellBrad]

What did they do before the folks in the USA and the early pioneers of the kite do to gain height with their falcons? Or for that matter what was the contex and history of the kite/balloon being used. Who was the first person to do it and what was their inspiration?

What's a kite for Ben?

Brad

[MitchellBrad]

I really expected someone to answer my comment. Kites and balloons are for some birds but certainly aren't for others. I've spoken to falconer after falconer who flys peregrines and heard all sorts of stories. 25 million feet on the kite and only a few hundred feet without it for peregrines. But they are strong!!! Don't know much else but they are strong. With gyr hybrids and gyrs it seems to work though I doubt Stanley will agree with you. Livingston on the other hand might have been a better bird though no one will ever know cause she was released. I've known falconer after falconer who've trained birds to wait on using nothing more than the lure as a reward for going up. Julian was right, it comes down to field craft.

Incidentally I saw a post after the one I did from Barbary Boy. It disappeared almost as soon as I read it. He mentioned that evil word "Baggie" If it was deleted as some attempt to perpetuate political correctness I can't understand that. On the other hand if BB deleted it in a moment of sobriety I can live with it.

Hey BB are ye a drunkard or are ye an honest man?


Incidentally by boy is "Boots on the Ground" Us soil, not Iraqi sand
Brad Mitchell who expects to get deleted.

[GyrXPeales]

[QUOTE=MitchellBrad;383963]I really expected someone to answer my comment. Kites and balloons are for some birds but certainly aren't for others. I've spoken to falconer after falconer who flys peregrines and heard all sorts of stories. 25 million feet on the kite and only a few hundred feet without it for peregrines. But they are strong!!! Don't know much else but they are strong. With gyr hybrids and gyrs it seems to work though I doubt Stanley will agree with you. Livingston on the other hand might have been a better bird though no one will ever know cause she was released. I've known falconer after falconer who've trained birds to wait on using nothing more than the lure as a reward for going up. Julian was right, it comes down to field craft.

There are people who kite and balloon that have birds that will take awesome pitches and maintain it throughout the season. There are those who have birds that start out each season at very high pitches that by the end of the season have birds that are flying at 200'. Most of those cuss their birds and end up getting a new one after a couple of seasons because it's "the birds fault".
Some Peregrines don't seem to adapt well to kites. A lot of the birds that are trained to the lure will take just as high of a pitch at the beginning of the season as a kite trained bird only to daisy clip at the end.
Kite or lure, what's the difference? The difference is the falconer. It doesn't take long for any bird to realize it can kill plenty of stuff from 200'. What's the difference in the falconers? The falconer who's bird maintains a proper pitch throughout the season is the one that doesn't provide his/her bird with ****e slips, it's the falconer that doesn't re-flush over and over again at an ever decreasing pitch. The falconer that can walk away from a re-flush when their bird hasn't achieved a decent pitch on the outrun is the one who still has a high flying bird at the end of the season.
IMHO is makes absolutely no difference how you train your bird to go up. Most of the people I know kite or balloon train, without exception at least in my little group of friends the birds end the season at the same or higher pitch than when they started, the same goes for those that lure train. They all usually keep their birds until the damned things die of old age or accident, and every one of them maintains discipline in the field. They provide quality slips, and they don't re-flush unless their bird is at a decent pitch, and they do it year after year. Their kill percentages are very high, some people might put a few more in the bag, but when these guys say their birds didn't fly that well today, the on lookers are standing around with slack jaws saying "Didn't fly well! WTF are you talking about".
It does all come down to field craft after all.
Just my thoughts,
Jeff

[Ben C]

Sorry Brad: The kite is not for me at all, I was just wondering. I am reading the posts and thinking about the future.

[Falconer1000]

Sorry Brad: The kite is not for me at all, I was just wondering. I am reading the posts and thinking about the future.

give it a try ben you might get your harris going up 1000ft :)
only joking mate

james

[MitchellBrad]

Sorry Brad: The kite is not for me at all, I was just wondering. I am reading the posts and thinking about the future.

Ben,

There is all sorts of stuff you can do to get a bird to go up. I think people get a little testy about height and how they achieve it. Remember it isn't all about height either. It's about learning how to stoop, manuver, foot, understanding quarry and a while lot more. Also it sometimes takes a few birds before you can figure out what works for you.

good luck when you try it and don't get frustrated. I have some problems with this peales tiercel about him getting a little lazy. Today I'm going to screw him all up and switch fields, maybe take him out for some more grouse exercising. Spice up his life just a little and see what happens. He's stuck at around 300 in one field so I've going to unstick him:)



Brad

[Ben C]

Part of me wants to say sod it and give it a go, the other wants to take time and do it the 'old fashion' way. A bit more reading and thinking and time to mull over the options. :supz:

[MitchellBrad]

Part of me wants to say sod it and give it a go, the other wants to take time and do it the 'old fashion' way. A bit more reading and thinking and time to mull over the options. :supz:

You do what you feel is right. Go out with some others and see how they do it. Beware of the guy who brings a bird and starts kicking the tires then doesn't fly it.:yawinkle:

Brad

[Venividevenatio]

What did they do before the folks in the USA and the early pioneers of the kite do to gain height with their falcons? Or for that matter what was the contex and history of the kite/balloon being used. Who was the first person to do it and what was their inspiration?

In the past (and present elswhere than UK) Falconers were flying wild taken birds. These birds had learned for themselves how to assume position and height to become effective killers.
The falconer then imposed his training on what was already there.

The way I was instructed to teach a longwing to gain height is as follows:

As soon as the bird is flying free, call it back for food ONLY when it is climbing. It then learns very quickly that it gets rewarded for climbing.
The difficult bit is to be able to see that it is actualy climbing, especialy as the height improves, and you do not have a horizon or other reference point.
Practise by looking at any wild birds in flight.
Help the longwing out with areas of natural uplift.
Position training can be achieved in the same way. Take full advantage of any accidental correct positioning.
This method has always worked for me with eyases, and has been used for corrective re-training of older birds, but not always as succesfuly.