Whats the best solution?

[GriffMJ]

My tiercel has two splits up the front edges of each tooth as you can see from the photo... whats the best way to deal with this. He has managed to do this by plucking at the dried pheasant wings on the lure.... there is dry skin in the wings that have caused this.

What I want to do is cope the tooth up to where the split ends so it goes no further?

http://www.m-jhoods.co.uk/images/Clients/beak/HB1.JPG

[BrianM]

ooooo that could be nasty griff, i am sure sprout will be able to help though,, good luck with him

[TheZuffler]

http://www.falconryforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=4788

Hope this helps.:wink:

[OutFlying]

Take the wings off the lure for a start.

Jim.

[FlameHairedFalconer]

Griff,

Personally I would go for several coping sessions until the splits are filed out, probably between 1 and 2 weeks apart, rather than one big session which would probably result in complete loss of the tooth. You can then ensure correct shaping as the tooth regrows.

In the meantime feed on 'soft' meat such as chick/mouse/quail or pheasant breast so that he is not biting down hard on bone, and as outflying says, remove the wings from the lure or stop him from plucking.

FHF

[LongVVing]

my pere female had this happen but to just one side of the beak - it was too deep to cope out in one go. I had to keep cleaning away the food that got stuck after each feed. I eventually managed to cope out the crack so the food stopped getting caught, then let the beak grow down to the point where I could cope out the split completely.

didn't know about the hoof treatment hawkmaster describes in his response to the thread listed. That may well have cut the time down.

best of luck with him.

Mark

[Dean]

My tiercel has two splits up the front edges of each tooth as you can see from the photo... whats the best way to deal with this. He has managed to do this by plucking at the dried pheasant wings on the lure.... there is dry skin in the wings that have caused this.

What I want to do is cope the tooth up to where the split ends so it goes no further?

http://www.m-jhoods.co.uk/images/Clients/beak/HB1.JPG
Griff,Dont cope or mess with this,give plenty tirings,this is a natural process of raising the beak tooth,often one side goes before the other,it looks a tad unsightly,but believe me it will all settle down,his beak will be fine,plenty pigeon wings,preferably plucked for dis-association!

[TiercelJim]

surely plucking shouldnt split your birds beak.Ive seen a few birds with beaks like this all fed soly on chick. try adding some sa37 or feed a better diet.

[BlackFalcon]

Cast the bird, open the beak and using a small pair of sharp clippers, snip the tooth away to the top of the split. Then using a rotary tool (best) or round file, remove the crack to it's end. All will grow back in a few weeks with no problem. If you leave it, no matter how careful you are the crack will go higher up the beak.

[Liam Hay]

Cast the bird, open the beak and using a small pair of sharp clippers, snip the tooth away to the top of the split. Then using a rotary tool (best) or round file, remove the crack to it's end. All will grow back in a few weeks with no problem. If you leave it, no matter how careful you are the crack will go higher up the beak.

Totally agree cope it out m8 and the crack will go no further

liam

[Dean]

It will get no worse if you give tirings,you may deform the beak if you mess,you will stress the bird for no reason!Make yourself a feeding block,give tirings on this,he will scrap his beak on the concrete,all will be fine!

[Crow Buster]

surely plucking shouldnt split your birds beak.Ive seen a few birds with beaks like this all fed soly on chick. try adding some sa37 or feed a better diet.

I have had this happen to 3 of my falcons all hybrids that are fed a quality diet (rat's, mice, quail and some DOC). I manage the problem by snipping the end of the beak when it starts to get to long as it sometimes does even when giving tirings. IMO the cracks occurr when the beak becomes to long and the bird puts to much pressure on it when pulling at bone and other tuff tirings. Nothing to be concerned about or get a vet involved with. Just keep an eye on it.

[TiercelJim]

Deans concrete topped blocks a good idea.

[GriffMJ]

Cast the bird, open the beak and using a small pair of sharp clippers, snip the tooth away to the top of the split. Then using a rotary tool (best) or round file, remove the crack to it's end. All will grow back in a few weeks with no problem. If you leave it, no matter how careful you are the crack will go higher up the beak.

Yes I agree.... I think thats the best course of action.


Its been nothing to do with diet.... he gets Quail, Chick and Partridge legs ect...... the problem has been caused by the dry skin contained in the top of the lure wings.

[Dean]

Yes I agree.... I think thats the best course of action.


Its been nothing to do with diet.... he gets Quail, Chick and Partridge legs ect...... the problem has been caused by the dry skin contained in the top of the lure wings.
Ok Griff,Go for it!!!I know what you are thinking,seen this hundreds of times,never ever have I seen a falcon turn out with that hole you envisage!!!<G>Your bird would have ended up with a natural shaped tooth again!But eh!!What do I know!!!!!!! Good Luck!!!!

[Grey_Squirrel_Hawker]

get the polyfilla out!!!!

[Dean]

I have had this happen to 3 of my falcons all hybrids that are fed a quality diet (rat's, mice, quail and some DOC). I manage the problem by snipping the end of the beak when it starts to get to long as it sometimes does even when giving tirings. IMO the cracks occurr when the beak becomes to long and the bird puts to much pressure on it when pulling at bone and other tuff tirings. Nothing to be concerned about or get a vet involved with. Just keep an eye on it.
Yeh Mate,Its not the wings that have caused the splits,this has happened naturally,the sinewy bits stuck inside the split from the wings just makes it look that way!!!It is worrying though,people see a big hole appearing for them to whistle through<G>I cope just about every falconers birds in this area,although I have coped falcons with this problem,it is usually on the say so of the bird owner,not my advise!!!

[GriffMJ]

Some close ups....

http://www.m-jhoods.co.uk/images/Clients/beak/HB2.JPG

http://www.m-jhoods.co.uk/images/Clients/beak/HB3.JPG

[Dean]

Some close ups....

http://www.m-jhoods.co.uk/images/Clients/beak/HB2.JPG

http://www.m-jhoods.co.uk/images/Clients/beak/HB3.JPG
The crack under the tooth is naturally heading outwards in the right direction!!!But........Thats not a crack high in the beak by the cere is it???If it is,then thats a cause for concern,needs to be filled,never seen this occurence,maybe just the photo though!!

[GriffMJ]

The crack under the tooth is naturally heading outwards in the right direction!!!But........Thats not a crack high in the beak by the cere is it???If it is,then thats a cause for concern,needs to be filled,never seen this occurence,maybe just the photo though!!

Just a bit of stuck on quail feather from yesterday... its not there in the top pic ...taken later after he bathed.

[SnakeHuts]

Griff,

Do as Blackfalcon originally suggested.

[Tim Laycock]

Griff,
just to throw my "Two penneth" in :mrgreen:

Some of that tooth needs to be removed but for pittys sake dont do it with snips :shock:
One false move and the job is knackered and then the split will run!

What I would do is hood the hawk and have him cast up by an assistant then file away 1/2 to 2/3 of the tominal tooth with either a diamond file or an abrasive cone housed in a rotary tool, I would be tempted to remove a bit from the tip also as this will reduce pressure at the "run" of the split.

Wether you feed him tirring afterwards or not is up to you and how you feel about the split once it is coped.
Little and often is a good ploy :yawinkle:

The feeding block is a sound idea :supz:

[Tim Laycock]

So many different takes on the same thing, whats a man to do? :rolleyes:

[Dean]

All answers on this thread make perfect sense and are obviously through practical experience,all will work!!I would just suggest,if coping is taking place,you are going to have to dremmil the split completely out to solve the problem,otherwise the problem exists with greater difficulties,look how high the split is,gonna be a mess!!!!All I can say on the matter is,if this bird were now put in an aviary with plenty concrete scrapping perches,fed on natural food and not bothered with,there would be no evidence of a beak problem in several weeks!Griffs problem is,that he can see the problem daily and is fearing the worse,as any good falconer would!!This problem needs to be tentively ignored to a point and let training commence!!!In my experience anyhow!We could cope this split out,yes,it can also be done naturally,on that I state my none reputation!!!!!!

[Tim Laycock]

I would rather try and fail than fail by not trying :yawinkle:

There is a lot of sense in this thread, a rarity here at times!

[Steve Harris]

:lol:
you lot really do need to start listening to dean more,
i have known dean for some years now,
and or paths have crossed many times through the years,

concrete topped blocks seem to of come as somewhat a surprise to a lot of you,
all i can say is "welcome to old school falconry"

theres far too much - "lets used modern materials" line of thought nowadays

falcons feak when they have fed - feaking wears the beak in the correct manner,
and falcons live in rocky terrain
know the critter = solve the problem.

i have had splits in some of my own birds,
they can be minimised, they can be avoided,

tirings and rocks - everytime

how's this for an off the wall solution...worked for me,

step 1 - clean the split, open it gently to remove any crud still in the split,

step 2 - cope the beak - retaining the tooth

step 3 - when you have coped, and neatened the split,
apply (very bloody carefully) superglue to the remaining split,
(have heard of glassfibre resin being used - but never tried personally)

the superglue will fill the split and prevent any further intrusions whilst the beak grows out the remainder of the split,

step 4 - use tirings, use concrete blocks / stones etc to allow the bird to do what comes natural

falconry sometimes is no more than common sense,
something i'm affraid modern society is fastly loosing the knack of useing

[Nemesis]

Hi just bought a elet nail manacure set from local pound shop not as powerful as a breamel but it works and less chance of going to far with it one of these might do the biss and trim back the beak without to much taken off if you dont have a pound shop near you would be happy to get one for you and post it to you if you like let me knowe all the best dave

[GameHawker]

Cast the bird, open the beak and using a small pair of sharp clippers, snip the tooth away to the top of the split. Then using a rotary tool (best) or round file, remove the crack to it's end. All will grow back in a few weeks with no problem. If you leave it, no matter how careful you are the crack will go higher up the beak.


Nice beak you got yourself there Griff, I would follow the advise given.

[GriffMJ]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackfalcon
Cast the bird, open the beak and using a small pair of sharp clippers, snip the tooth away to the top of the split. Then using a rotary tool (best) or round file, remove the crack to it's end. All will grow back in a few weeks with no problem. If you leave it, no matter how careful you are the crack will go higher up the beak.

Yes I agree.... I think thats the best course of action.

You must be a typical blonde :D

[Tim Laycock]

:lol:

concrete topped blocks seem to of come as somewhat a surprise to a lot of you,
all i can say is "welcome to old school falconry"



Whos suprised :rolleyes: :?

Seems to be a lot of agreement that its a good idea, wheres the suprise :rolleyes:

[GriffMJ]

Whos suprised :rolleyes: :?

Seems to be a lot of agreement that its a good idea, wheres the suprise :rolleyes:

I think its a great idea and will be having a go at making one myself :D I have got a couple of block stems that I can use.... I will get an old "catering" coffee tin as a mould ...... pour in the concrete and stick in the block stem whilst its setting ..... then cut away the tin.... and "rasp" down the edges .... that should do it. Maybe dent the base of the tin as well to give the top of the block a more natural shape.

[Dean]

:lol:
you lot really do need to start listening to dean more,
i have known dean for some years now,
and or paths have crossed many times through the years,

concrete topped blocks seem to of come as somewhat a surprise to a lot of you,
all i can say is "welcome to old school falconry"

theres far too much - "lets used modern materials" line of thought nowadays

falcons feak when they have fed - feaking wears the beak in the correct manner,
and falcons live in rocky terrain
know the critter = solve the problem.

i have had splits in some of my own birds,
they can be minimised, they can be avoided,

tirings and rocks - everytime

how's this for an off the wall solution...worked for me,

step 1 - clean the split, open it gently to remove any crud still in the split,

step 2 - cope the beak - retaining the tooth

step 3 - when you have coped, and neatened the split,
apply (very bloody carefully) superglue to the remaining split,
(have heard of glassfibre resin being used - but never tried personally)

the superglue will fill the split and prevent any further intrusions whilst the beak grows out the remainder of the split,

step 4 - use tirings, use concrete blocks / stones etc to allow the bird to do what comes natural

falconry sometimes is no more than common sense,
something i'm affraid modern society is fastly loosing the knack of useing
Hey Stevie,How you doin!!!!Moneys in the post<G>

[GriffMJ]

Going to put a big plate plate washer on the top thread (4 inchs from the top) as an anchor and then fill the tin 1/2 way with concrete.... to make the platform...... once set ...I will use an old horse rasp I have to bevel down the top edge and then smooth it off... and do the same for the under side then "hammerite" the main body to give it a smooth finish for the leash... leaving top and top edge exposed. Probably a better idea to stick a load of plastacine in the top of the tin to make the rounded edge.... prior to putting in the cement.

http://www.m-jhoods.co.uk/images/Clients/beak/HB4.JPG

[GaryPCO]

good one griff how about giving the tooth a few coats of nail varnish just to strengthen the split,if natural coping with the concrete blockis ur aim it may not harm to strengthen the substance of the tooth,by strengthening the split,as hopefully itl wear down better without just ripping its weaker parts im no expert on coping but i try to think about common sense as i write my posts,whats ur advise guys(to the experienced guys please)hope all is well griff......:wink:

[Dean]

Going to put a big plate plate washer on the top thread (4 inchs from the top) as an anchor and then fill the tin 1/2 way with concrete.... to make the platform...... once set ...I will use an old horse rasp I have to bevel down the top edge and then smooth it off... and do the same for the under side then "hammerite" the main body to give it a smooth finish for the leash... leaving top and top edge exposed. Probably a better idea to stick a load of plastacine in the top of the tin to make the rounded edge.... prior to putting in the cement.

http://www.m-jhoods.co.uk/images/Clients/beak/HB4.JPG
Griff,If you start making these,give us a price and I'll have one,I'd better collect it though,the post and packing would be too much too handle<G>

[GriffMJ]

Griff,If you start making these,give us a price and I'll have one,I'd better collect it though,the post and packing would be too much too handle<G>

Just a one off Dean :wink:

[Dean]

Used to saw a length of silver birch at approx the correct diameter,srew a few screws in the top,trowel my cement on just under 50/50,dome the top,leaving concrete of approx an inch from the wood,stick in a stake,get a ring from the ironmonger 10p........used to sell em for a fiver!!! Dell-boy!

[GriffMJ]

Used to saw a length of silver birch at approx the correct diameter,srew a few screws in the top,trowel my cement on just under 50/50,dome the top,leaving concrete of approx an inch from the wood,stick in a stake,get a ring from the ironmonger 10p........used to sell em for a fiver!!! Dell-boy!

Yours is just as effective Dean.... if it does the job then its "right" :D I have got a couple of spare block spikes left over from last year...... so I am just making use of them .... great idea and thanks for it.

I am going to try my hand at turning a wooden block.... so the other block spike will be used for that when I can get round to it.

[Dean]

Yours is just as effective Dean.... if it does the job then its "right" :D I have got a couple of spare block spikes left over from last year...... so I am just making use of them .... great idea and thanks for it.

I am going to try my hand at turning a wooden block.... so the other block spike will be used for that when I can get round to it.
I know you would,nt Griff,but I,ve just got to mention it in case there are newbies thinking of doing it,be carefull not to leave the birds out on these in hot weather,they get very very hot very quickly!!These blocks also do a natural coping of the talons if used in moderation!Always make sure to leave an unlevel surface for comfort and a dome as to not snag the leash over the top!!!!

[Puzo]

I was given a gyr x saker with the seme sort of split in the beak. Though in this case it was compounded by being overgrown & flaking further up the gape behind the tooth. So I had no option but to cope using clippers, Dremil, half moon & rat tailed file. I think what Dean said makes a lot of sense. Once you start coping, no matter how many tirings you use that bird will need coped regularly for the rest of it's life. Though I must admit I would find coping hard to resist given the potential for infection with food becoming lodged in the split

[SnakeHuts]

Think Deans suggestion of a concrete/stone topped block is great but not the solution in this instance, the tooth and split need coping out, then in the longer term use a concrete block, you have spent more time discussing the options than it would take to sort the bird.

[Dean]

Think Deans suggestion of a concrete/stone topped block is great but not the solution in this instance, the tooth and split need coping out, then in the longer term use a concrete block, you have spent more time discussing the options than it would take to sort the bird.
This bird is in no danger at the moment,it has a split beak,I would suggest tirings everyday for one week,twice a day!Many think this will rip the beak apart,the crack will elongate leaving an irrepairable hole!I have given this advice before on more than several occasions and never had a disappointment!If my idea does not work or the beak deteriorates,then cope!!!!My hat is ready and waiting,flavoured with ketchup!

[GameHawker]

Griff have we seen you on Blue Peter before!.

Carl

[Sprout]

I personally would cope the split out, as food sticks in the crack it applies more pressue to the head of the crack forcing it onward and upward, you don;t need to be too aggressive with the coping but widening the base of the split slightly will hopefully remove the crevice for food to sit in and coinsequently reduce the pressure at the head of the crack.

[GameHawker]

Griff what have you done or are you still unsure, after all the advice you have been given even by a vet now its not rocket science.

Carl

[SnakeHuts]

Dr Carl, pass the dremel, please assist nurse sprout .....we are going in .....

[Sparty]

cut the long part of the beak as short as you can too take the pressure off the split sides when feeding. get some liquid calcium from the chemist add to the food and that will strengthen your falcons beak.

[GriffMJ]

I have taken the tip of the beak back by 2-3mm to take away some of the force and pressure and given him some tiring to smooth off the tip and also to take out some of the wedged sinew in the right hand side.... the tiring has naturally taken off the tominal tooth on the right back to a normal level. I am keeping an eye on the left hand side at the moment as its not getting any worse the cracks are naturally curving back down and not going up .... so it will be a case of a light coping with a round file to take any jaggged edge away and keeping an eye on it......

[HawkNorth]

Griff I've seen this the same as yours i took a bit of the tip to take the pressure off just as you have done The cracks appeared when she was given a rabbit leg panic set i thought her beak was going to fall off
The outer skin on one side fell off then the other side.the beaks perfect now
just a wee bit of growing to do

[Sprout]

cut the long part of the beak as short as you can too take the pressure off the split sides when feeding. get some liquid calcium from the chemist add to the food and that will strengthen your falcons beak.
Sorry, calcium will do nothing to help - the beak has a bony shell covered in keratin, it is the keratin layer you see with the split in, so calcium will do nothing to help.

[Dean]

Griff I've seen this the same as yours i took a bit of the tip to take the pressure off just as you have done The cracks appeared when she was given a rabbit leg panic set i thought her beak was going to fall off
The outer skin on one side fell off then the other side.the beaks perfect now
just a wee bit of growing to do
Hallaluya................!!!!!!!

[Sparty]

liquid calcium worked a treat for a falcon i had a the same problem with a few yrs ago. the beak grew through underneath the split really quick and i smoothed it all out with careful use of
a dremmel and it has worked for me.

[Sprout]

liquid calcium worked a treat for a falcon i had a the same problem with a few yrs ago. the beak grew through underneath the split really quick and i smoothed it all out with careful use of
a dremmel and it has worked for me.
Coincidence then, calcium will have NO bearing on keratin re-growth. Probably more due to the careful coping than anything.

[Crow Buster]

The thought of using a dremmel on a hawks beak makes me shudder. Must require a steady hand and an acomplice to hold the bird.

[Sprout]

The thought of using a dremmel on a hawks beak makes me shudder. Must require a steady hand and an acomplice to hold the bird.
If done correctly a dremel appies less "shock" to the beak than coping with hand files will do, also can be done quicker so reducing the stress on the bird. Whether using a dremel or hand files a steady hand and either an accomplice to cast the hawk or a casting jacket will be required.

[Tim Laycock]

cut the long part of the beak as short as you can too take the pressure off the split sides when feeding. get some liquid calcium from the chemist add to the food and that will strengthen your falcons beak. i know you dont want advice from me so ignore this. you owe me an apology i hope you have sussed it out now you paronoid ****

Keep your personal **** to yourself!

It does not belong on this thread.

[Liam Hay]

liquid calcium worked a treat for a falcon i had a the same problem with a few yrs ago. the beak grew through underneath the split really quick and i smoothed it all out with careful use of
a dremmel and it has worked for me.

Liquid calcium PMSL:lol: :lol:

[Dean]

Griff,Hows the tiercels beak doing!!!Got any pics!!!

[GriffMJ]

Griff,Hows the tiercels beak doing!!!Got any pics!!!

Hi Dean

Fine thanks.... its all under control. Each side has cleared itself through tirings and taking that couple of mm's off the tip releaved any pressure.

Both tooths have come away naturally so all is fine some stripped turkey legs are waiting in the freezer for him now to take back whats left.... its turned out well :) As it turned out the cracks were not deep and turned back on themselves.

Will get some pics up tomorrow.

*** First proper stoop, hit and bind tonight with the throw lure :D

[Dean]

Hi Dean

Fine thanks.... its all under control. Each side has cleared itself through tirings and taking that couple of mm's off the tip releaved any pressure.

Both tooths have come away naturally so all is fine some stripped turkey legs are waiting in the freezer for him now to take back whats left.... its turned out well :) As it turned out the cracks were not deep and turned back on themselves.

Will get some pics up tomorrow.

*** First proper stoop hit and bind tonight with the throw lure :D Well done Mate!!!Excellent job!!!

[Jiff]

griff, just found this post, i'm glad that things are under control, looking at the pics for the first time tonight, things were getting a bit over grown, mind you grif i'm a novice and might be spouting ****, there's alot of people that don't pay enough attention to coping,(no dissrespect intended fela) but keep you're eye on it, we tend to spoil the birds and expect every thing to be ok, just as you're nails need cutting so does the beak and tallons of our birds, get some photo's of birds at a young age and use these as a refferance to the shape you require,best wishes mate and keep the clipers sharp.

[GriffMJ]

Hi All

Just an update on his beak.... as you can see all is well.... just tirings and coping the tip of the beak. No radical intervention was needed ...just kept an eye on it :) He is due for another clipping of the tip shortly...

http://www.m-jhoods.co.uk/images/Clients/beak/HB5.JPG

http://www.m-jhoods.co.uk/images/Clients/beak/HB6.JPG