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Russell
04-08-2006, 04:05 PM
What ever happened to the old Common Buzzard being the beginners bird.
I was always told that if you can get a buzzard flying and hunting reasonably well then you can get almost anything going.
Now most people fly a harris to start with, but i belive these people only start with a hh because its the first bop they see flying and see that they are an easy option into falconry, personly i disagree with this as when these people decide to move on to a more challenging bop they haven't had the previous experience of that diffaculty which a buzzard can put up whilst in the training process.
I myself started with a buzzard and put in the time needed to bring out the best in her, i hunted her successfully for 2 years then moved on to a rth, but the buzzard was a challenge and a dam good bird to fly so i belive that beginners should not be put off with what they hear about buzzards being a lazey bop and should give them a try, it will bring out the best in you, and is a grate foundation to the art of falconry;-)

BuzzBee
04-08-2006, 04:10 PM
It varys between person to person what you would class as a 'beginners bird'. I myself would suggest the Harris as i believe the Harris has better relationship with man e.g following on. Buzzard is a good choice though and no one should be faulted for starting with one. I myself have not trained either but have retrained one and have the enjoyment of flying both most days of the week.

Grey_Squirrel_Hawker
04-08-2006, 04:13 PM
unfortunately it seems most begginer falconers want a quick fix solution! and the harris fits that bill! probobly the reason that american apprentices are banned from using a harris as their first bird (although i belive this is under review).
i would like to see more folk using buzzards as they are (i have found) nice birds to work with and you only realy get what you put into them. i havent hunted with them but i have flown one for a short while and he was a lovely bird to work with and i feel i learnt alot from him as he was one of the first birds i flew.
ive also seen some cracking flights at rabbits from wild buzzards, ones that would put many harris's to shame!!

NGuruve
04-08-2006, 04:14 PM
i do agree wit u there man although im going with the male redtail i reckon more people should steer clear of a harris as a first bird and try a buzzard because they can hunt fine once u get them going me and chackcheck saw a buzzard with a rabbit last weekend it had caught and that was a wild one

Russell
04-08-2006, 04:16 PM
The buzzard i flew after i put the time in was as well manned as any hh i've flowen and would follow on reasonably well, but not quite as well as a hh lol:lol:

BuzzBee
04-08-2006, 04:18 PM
The buzzard i flew after i put the time in was as well manned as any hh i've flowen and would follow on reasonably well, but not quite as well as a hh lol:lol:

And a bird following on does appeal to quite a few people. :supz:

OutFlying
04-08-2006, 04:20 PM
Russell,
Start a thread about your new hawk :lol:

Jim.

ps How's she doing ?

Dean
04-08-2006, 04:21 PM
Hunting with hawks has increased dramatically over the last decade or so due to the major influx of the harris hawk!Fact is,true falconers now deplore them,yet did once love them!!!!

Russell
04-08-2006, 04:21 PM
in America the rth is classed as the beginners bird as you may know, i think its a better option you are takeing than going straight for the harris, in my personal view:supz:

NGuruve
04-08-2006, 04:26 PM
haha yes man start a thread on your new bird dan has told me about haha
how did u find your redtail compared to the buzzard and harrises in terms of difficulty to fly well?

Russell
04-08-2006, 04:27 PM
Had the dogs out with het last night seemed ok but still not fed from fist she weighed 2lb 5,1/2, she seems very quiet with little baiting from the fist

frogman
04-08-2006, 04:44 PM
people dont fly the buzzard any more and the plain and simple answer is that the male hh is as cheap as the common buzzard in some places in the uk and if defra get there way and charge silly money for the a10 then the hh will be cheaper to buy than the buzzard falconry has gone mad

ChakChek
04-08-2006, 05:41 PM
after seeing a buzzard last week fly off with a rabbit in its feet, i was pretty damn tempted to get one haha

Richard
04-08-2006, 05:48 PM
I love the buzzards, gorgeous birds and alot of variety in the colouring, and its nice to see them doing well in the UK.

I think they would teach a beginner alot more than a HH if they were to get one hunting and flying well. But the next question i would want to know is why a CB over a RT?

A redtail presents the same sort of challenges as a CB but without being lazy, more agressive?

Thats just my view :)

ChakChek
04-08-2006, 06:01 PM
I love the buzzards, gorgeous birds and alot of variety in the colouring, and its nice to see them doing well in the UK.

I think they would teach a beginner alot more than a HH if they were to get one hunting and flying well. But the next question i would want to know is why a CB over a RT?

A redtail presents the same sort of challenges as a CB but without being lazy, more agressive?

Thats just my view :)

i think thats the point russell is putting across....the fact that if you can get a lazy bird to hunt effectivly, then you can pretty much train any other bird that may be more challenging

Trappa
04-08-2006, 06:02 PM
Good question. I started with a FHH simply because my mentor advised saying that i would have more sport, and duly i obeyed. Ive heard lots of feedback saying they are lazy etc but, now ive got the experience i would like to try flying a CB just to see how good they actually are!
I think the a10 puts some people off as well. I know that if i had a choice when i first started between a CB or a HH i would have chose the CB.

SnapeDek
04-08-2006, 06:47 PM
My first bird was a common buzzard because i did not have the money to buy a harris or redtail he was a great bird to fly to the fist and lure and a nice bird to own.but in no way can a common buzzard be compared with a harris. They were a good beginners bird before the price of harris hawks got so low and yes there were the odd decent buzzard but i aint ever seen one not hunting anyway.So imagine if all the folk new to the sport bought a buzzard ( remembering how many people are taking up falconry just now!) then after a couple of month decide its time for a harris what happens to all the used buzzards. a friend of mine bought a female harris about 7 year ago for his first bird and has never had any incline to own any other bird and i believe he wont want one untill she either dies or he loses her.IN my humble oppinion this will never happen if you buy a buzzard.:?:

Graham Stuart
04-08-2006, 06:54 PM
I am seriously considering getting a Common Buzzard but the fact is they aint too Common nOW and finding a breeder aint too easy, to be honest most folk start with a HH because they are very easy to train and get hunting, If there are any breeders out there with young pm me:yawinkle: ...graham

Richard
04-08-2006, 07:03 PM
i think thats the point russell is putting across....the fact that if you can get a lazy bird to hunt effectivly, then you can pretty much train any other bird that may be more challenging

The lazyness is a challenge the RT doesnt present, however the RT presents its own challenges, such as aggression.

All in all the RT and CB are both birds where if you train them they might teach your more than HH?

Sparrie
04-08-2006, 07:12 PM
I fly a male imprint common buzzard. He has taught me alot. I love flying him but never managed to get him hunting, but hopefully that is about to change because he is out of the aviary next weekend for some early soaring training. If I was to get another bird it would be a parent reared female. I have never worked with one but I would like a bigger Buzzard that didn't scream at me.

Gary.

ChakChek
04-08-2006, 11:36 PM
The lazyness is a challenge the RT doesnt present, however the RT presents its own challenges, such as aggression.

All in all the RT and CB are both birds where if you train them they might teach your more than HH?

agrreed

Ben C
05-08-2006, 12:06 AM
A common buzzard brancher near my house..............

Pogue Mahone
05-08-2006, 12:19 AM
I am seriously considering getting a Common Buzzard but the fact is they aint too Common nOW and finding a breeder aint too easy, to be honest most folk start with a HH because they are very easy to train and get hunting, If there are any breeders out there with young pm

me:yawinkle: ...graham
easy to train if you know wot youre doing

Russell
05-08-2006, 06:38 AM
Nice pic mate:supz:

Ben C
05-08-2006, 09:08 AM
:yawinkle:

Harris
05-08-2006, 09:59 AM
As many of you may know, I have a passion for Common Buzzards, and have a 13yr old male display bird at the moment. many people underestimate the buzzard as a hunting bird, due to their natural hunting style which is to sit and wait, as opposed to the aggresive style of the harris etc. How many birds do you know that can, follow on like a Harris, soar like an eagle, stoop like a falcon and hover like a kestrel? (and sulk like a gos :lol: )They are however far more demanding on the falconer in terms of patience and knowledge to get the best out of them. I beleive a newbie with a CB would learn more in one season than 5 seasons with a HH. Bring back the "Indiginous" Buzzard I say.

BuzzBee
05-08-2006, 01:59 PM
Bring back the "Indiginous" Buzzard I say.[/QUOTE]

Its still here just you cant always see it;)

Ker-strel
05-08-2006, 03:17 PM
For me , if i do end up startin falconry with a harris hawk it would not be because i am looking for an easy way into it, it would be because i dont kno of any CB breeders,if i did and it was a little more expencive i would pay the extra to giveme the best start in falconry

LurcherCFC
05-08-2006, 05:25 PM
For me , if i do end up startin falconry with a harris hawk it would not be because i am looking for an easy way into it, it would be because i dont kno of any CB breeders,if i did and it was a little more expencive i would pay the extra to giveme the best start in falconry
well said m8 i had one they are brilliant birds so underrated:heart: :supz:

Russell
06-08-2006, 08:48 PM
It is nice to see people are missing what i would call the traditional way into falconry, lets not let the buzzard die out in this art, i think it would be a greate shame.
If you never started with a buzzard you would never know what you could have got out of it and missed, a buzzard is for today and other bop are for tomorrow.
try one you may have a grate experience like i did:supz:

Ed
07-08-2006, 11:45 AM
Bring back the "Indiginous" Buzzard I say.

Its still here just you cant always see it;)[/QUOTE]

Millions of 'em in Mid Wales :) !

BuzzBee
07-08-2006, 12:07 PM
Its still here just you cant always see it;)

Millions of 'em in Mid Wales :) ![/QUOTE]

Never been to mid wales :rolleyes:

Roo
12-08-2006, 10:38 PM
Someone once said to me, in helping to choose your first bird, take a look around in your area and see what BoP's are resident so you know what kind of quarry and terrain is available. I have seen buzzards from my window, thats what I will get when the time comes;-)

Harrisii
13-08-2006, 05:04 AM
I agree with the sentiments of the original post and believe that the C, buzzrd does have its place in modern faslconry as a beginers tool.
yet, i also disagree because i am a harris man and love this particular bird to bits. i am at ease with this bird, its hunting techniques, its ways and its abiltity. i would have seen the first 2 years of my introduction to the sport as waisted should I taken the common buzzard route.

still, i believe a buzzard is a way to reducing the surge in harris misuse and a steadier learining tool.
they say a harris wont learn you anything and a buzzard will!!!
******. a harris does learn newbies loads and by te time you have caught up with your C. Buzzard, your friends will know plenty and be hunting regular and successfully, with a harris.

so, at the end of the day, why wait that long when equally, you will have gained more eperience, more craft, more eager anticipation and ultimately less disapointment.

Harrisii
13-08-2006, 05:17 AM
Good question. I started with a FHH simply because my mentor advised saying that i would have more sport, and duly i obeyed. Ive heard lots of feedback saying they are lazy etc but, now ive got the experience i would like to try flying a CB just to see how good they actually are!
I think the a10 puts some people off as well. I know that if i had a choice when i first started between a CB or a HH i would have chose the CB.

your in a dream world trappa.

if you think that after a season you want to move onto a CBuzzard from fhh you should pack up and chuck it pal.
YOU SHOULD BE PUSHING YOUR BIRD AND GETTING SO MUCH OUT OF HER,THAT MOVING ONTO SOMETHING ELSE IS NEVER IN YOUR THOUGHTS.

the next season and "what next" is what you should be saying to yourself, not, C. bUZZARD, THATS CRAZY.

A cb WILL DO LESS IN A WEEK THA YOUR FHH IN AN HOUR.

GOOD LUCK WITH IT.

TMoritz
13-08-2006, 07:01 AM
Before I comment I'd like to say that I've never seen a common buzzard hunt so my info is based on reading and no handling experience.

Old American falconry books (prior to legislation) used to tell kids to go out and get a kite, and old buteo, or even an owl as a first bird. The reasoning was that it was a tool to teach animal husbandry since it was unlikely that an apprentice was going to actually be successful with his/her first bird anyway. This was a way the old master falconers could control who had decent birds and to prevent apprentices from "wasting or ruining" a noble species.

I see a glimmer of the same argument being thrown towards the suggestion of a common buzzard. When I sponsor an apprentice I want to give them a regiment that if followed to the nth detail, will yield exceptional results. Therefore, the only thing holding the new falconer back from the exceptional is their own mediocrity, never the bird.

In the USA we demand that apprentices typically fly RedTails because they ARE birds of great potential and they teach a lot to the new pupil. They also require the apprentice to harvest their own bird and take ownership of the situation and their experience rather than simply buy a bird. I know things are different in the UK and such is the nature of governments.

Having said that, if we are talking about the difference of few quid (I think that is what you Brits call the paper stuff with the queen's portrait) you can buy a redtail insead of a common buzzard, why not? The redtail or Harris has the potential for the extraordinary for a dedicated pupil. On purely a "management" perspective, we should expect the exceptional from our students and give them the tools, advice and assistance to make it possible if they are willing. It seems like a common buzzard is setting the bar lower for the student.

Headcount isn't everything but with large volumes of headcount you get to enjoy more exceptional flights and the sweet taste of success. Why would we want to encourage mediocrity?

My apprentices have always done well with their first RTHs with between 40-60 kills in their first season. I think they got hooked because success in the field build confidence and adds to enjoyment. My last apprentice trapped his RTH, had it eating on the fist in 12 hours, hopping across the room in 36, flying the creance in 96 hours and it took its first wild rabbit in the field in exactly a week. He put in the effort, the bird did what was natural, his season was a proud one for all involved. I could not see depriving my apprentices of the potential for great things by suggesting a less than superior species for their first bird.

Lastly, encouraging someone to fly a common buzzard that may be difficult to get killing rabbits could lead to them enjoying raptor husbandry. In this case they may never decide to actually enter the field and take game with any raptor in the future. Kinda have to ask what is the point of the excercise.

Regards,

Troy Moritz

MattSpar
13-08-2006, 08:18 AM
I personally don't see any point whatsoever in a novice starting with a buzzard these days, unless, for some reason, they really insist on doing so.

It's not easy getting a buzzard catching much even for someone with experience in entering a hawk to quarry. A novice will have none of this experience and is likely to end up with an obedient hawk, but one that won't chase anything. Not the fault of the falconer, nor that of the buzzard.

If one has the help of someone competent, it makes matters less difficult, but it won't alter the fact that a buzzard is a less than satisfactory hunting bird.

As tmoritz rightly suggests, it's important for the novice to have a hawk that actually puts something in the bag. In fact, even after fifty years, it's still quite important to me.

Russell
13-08-2006, 10:28 AM
I personly think that these people that go out just for the bag all the time should sell thier bop and go out a buy a rifle its not just to go out and kill every dam thing in sight i go out to see my bird hunt and fly, they kill a couple of rabbits in the field then its a bonus to the bird if it misses a coulpe of slips then to me that adds to the excitment its the chase not all killing that counts.
If a buzzard chases a rabbit it is more than capable of hunting.
The reason i belive a buzzard should be used as i have said many times befor is that they set many more challenges for the novice, and if the novice is keen enough he/she will stick at the sport.
My point was that a harris doesn't set as many challenges to a novice,if he/she decides to move onto a gos or a more challenging bop then they have already set a good foundation for thier self.
I have flown a buzzard for 2 years and had a good sucsses rate for hunting and i moved on to a rth and had 3 years with that after the rth i flew 6 hhs and had bloody good fun now i have moved on to a gos but not forgetting the challenges of that buzzard i belive that she set my way to better things in falconry;)

NGuruve
13-08-2006, 12:40 PM
pretty gd record there russ howz the gos commin not to move of he thread and i agree with u even though i chose a red tail but buzzards do rule and would make you alot happier each and every kill or good flight than a harris that is very gd but i think should be flown by more experienced people so that they can fly them to there full capabilities

TMoritz
13-08-2006, 03:48 PM
[QUOTE=Russell]I personly think that these people that go out just for the bag all the time should sell thier bop and go out a buy a rifle its not just to go out and kill every dam thing in sight i go out to see my bird hunt and fly, they kill a couple of rabbits in the field then its a bonus to the bird if it misses a coulpe of slips then to me that adds to the excitment its the chase not all killing that counts. [QUOTE]


I know catching game with a hawk is not a fashionable outfit to wear in this political climate, but it is sour grapes to think it isn't most desireable on a logical level.

Assuming we are out in the field looking for "quality of flight" and amazing chases, let us calculate how they occur. Through experience killing a raptor chooses to make more difficult attempts merely because it believes through experience that it can catch the target.

Let us say that a raptor that kills between 1 and 50 head kills 1 head for every 6 slips. Let us say that a bird that kills 51-100 head is successful 1 in 5. Last, let us say a bird that kills 250 in a season kills 1 head in 4 slips. Of the successful kills let us say that "quality of flight" is only present in 1 out of ever four kills.

So, at the end of the season, my gos that took 250 head may have seen 1000 slips, and I had perhaps 63 amazing flights that are worthy of the stuff of dreams. 63 majestic flights out of 1000 slips, or 6% of the time.

Now for the guy content with 50 head, he had 400 slips offered (40% as many as me, yet he caught 20% the game). Of the year, he only had majestic chases on perhaps 13 of the flights. 13 majestic flights out of 400 slips or 3%.

So completing the statistical analysis, he who's bird catches the most (or tries at least) gets to see more "quality flights". The kill is the logical conclusion to many flights but it is about seeing more amazing flights...they don't happen unless the bird has a nopolean complex and believes it can do anything.

Not to name drop, but Terry Large came to the USA and was out with 35 falconers while we were hunting my gos at a NAFA meet in 30mph winds. (I Was the only one flying that day) The flight went upwind for a quarter mile and Terry's comment at the time was "that is the finest flight i've ever seen with a goshawk". Had the bird not had 175 kills by that point in the season it would never have thought it possible to attempt such a flight.

We care about style, all a hawk cares about is success. So by increasing the volume of what the hawk wants (success), we get more of what we want. (style)

Just my politically incorrect opinion.

MattSpar
13-08-2006, 04:40 PM
[QUOTE=tmoritzJust my politically incorrect opinion.[/QUOTE]

And one with which I, for one, totally agree.

Pitbull
13-08-2006, 06:32 PM
me personally thinks, whats the point of getting a CB if you want to move on. Its like a second hand car market out there.
what would happen too all those CBs after the 1st season when people want too progress to something else which they will hence why not many falconers from 15 / 20 years ago go out and get CBs. I want to get to the point where i have a Goldie. not a steppes not a tawny or anything else so why should i get a RT to pass on then a steppes or a tawny before i get a goldie. As long as we have all done our home work and willing to put the time in then why not.

Rex06
13-08-2006, 06:48 PM
yeah what pitbull sas is true.
my opinion is : why get a cb he is hard to enter, males almost impossible for beginners. so problebly for a beginner its only flying the bird and try to hunt. after a year or 2 that will get boring. so they buy another bird (hh or rt or what ever)and the cb will get less atention...
ofcourse there are people who will keep on putting attention in there cb.
And there will be cb's that hunt.

but i still think that you better begin with a rt or a hh (if you start with a(para)buteo )

greetzz its only an opinion I COULD BE WRONG


ps: why not a red-backend hawk or an african red-tail?? (dunno what they are like)!!

NewBird
13-08-2006, 08:16 PM
For what it is worth I was trained in the 'ld school'- started with Kestrels (which made weight control with CB or HH seem very easy) and then moved onto a CB (male) who was great - sure we couldn't boast endless kills but we had a great time together and he taught me loads - for me the joy of falconry will always be as much about my partnership with the bird as the precise number of kills. He eventually dropped off his perch (old age) and I now have a female HH. It may just be her but I am not finding her any easier than my CB, just different

One advantage of a HH here in Devon is that she is easily distinguishable from the vast number of wild CBs we see everytime we go out!
Regards
NewBird