I wish....

[JFSeaman]

there were a compotent apprentise scheme for the UK.

[Quiver]

your right fred, but it think its too late now to get one off the ground, i don't think if i had restrictions on me getting started i would not be doing it now. chris.

[JFSeaman]

You would have and could have. I'm not talking about a scheme as strict as US. That's overkill and of course the US falconry is well respected for it but still far beyond a minimum that we could get started with.

If LANTRA with

Assesment for existing falconers
Guidelines for club based apprentiseship followed by assesment
or
(yeach) Commercial based training and assesment

won't work.

Should we give up and wait for falconry to be banned, just enjoy it while we can?

Other countries have managed it, why not the UK.

Would you gamble £35 for an assesment that it could lead to a decent scheme?

Did you see or hear about the add for a harris hawk in the weekend harold?

[AndyUK]

its a lovley idea but theres a few problems that i can see

firstly this contry bases so much of its new regulations and ideas on the states that you can be they would look to them for a model of how it should work and that could have some very nasty effects on uk falconry

secondly your stuck between a rock and a hard place with who regulates these things the hb wont do it directly so its working groups as with lantra and theres always going to be an eliment of personal intrests with these as there people who earn there living from falconry
or deffra takes it on and having seen some of the ideas put forward when they consulted on the lantra idea that could be as bad as the system in the states

let mr blair and his cronies in on this and we're screwed in a big way

my main sticking point with all these ideas is the first people hit are the guys on the ground
why not start with the breeders regulate them stop the sales of birds to idiots then you solve half the problem strait away
regulate the centers more hevely so we can put a stop to barn owls in carparks and shoping centers
but since the asessment is writen by center owners breeders and equipment supliers its far easyer to take £35 off every uk falconer for an asessment that has been so watered down that its of no use to a lot of uk falconers

this isnt a dig at centers breeders or supliers in genral its just a fact that people will always seek to protect there intrests

its a fine idea and i admire the people who have tryed to make it work but lets be honest is it realy going to solve anything ?

Andy..........

[JFSeaman]

its a lovley idea but theres a few problems that i can see

firstly this contry bases so much of its new regulations and ideas on the states that you can be they would look to them for a model of how it should work and that could have some very nasty effects on uk falconry

secondly your stuck between a rock and a hard place with who regulates these things the hb wont do it directly so its working groups as with lantra and theres always going to be an eliment of personal intrests with these as there people who earn there living from falconry
or deffra takes it on and having seen some of the ideas put forward when they consulted on the lantra idea that could be as bad as the system in the states

let mr blair and his cronies in on this and we're screwed in a big way

my main sticking point with all these ideas is the first people hit are the guys on the ground
why not start with the breeders regulate them stop the sales of birds to idiots then you solve half the problem strait away
regulate the centers more hevely so we can put a stop to barn owls in carparks and shoping centers
but since the asessment is writen by center owners breeders and equipment supliers its far easyer to take £35 off every uk falconer for an asessment that has been so watered down that its of no use to a lot of uk falconers

this isnt a dig at centers breeders or supliers in genral its just a fact that people will always seek to protect there intrests

its a fine idea and i admire the people who have tryed to make it work but lets be honest is it realy going to solve anything ?

Andy..........
Andy,

Let me summarize so I can see if I get your points.

There is broad agreement that the UK needs something.

In the future, it could be too hard as the standard could become more like the US.

The LANTRA administered scheme is to easy and you think someone is going to get rich on £35 or less you'd pay now.

The breeders should be regulated instead of the falconers especially centres.

Have I got the basic points correct?

[Venividevenatio]

Andy,

Let me summarize so I can see if I get your points.

There is broad agreement that the UK needs something.

In the future, it could be too hard as the standard could become more like the US.

The LANTRA administered scheme is to easy and you think someone is going to get rich on £35 or less you'd pay now.

The breeders should be regulated instead of the falconers especially centres.

Have I got the basic points correct?

I can see Falconry in the UK,( as a Field Sport, in its true meaning) heading for 'crash and burn'.
Then perhaps, and just perhaps, (appropriatly) a phoenix will rise from the ashes?

[JFSeaman]

I can see Falconry in the UK,( as a Field Sport, in its true meaning) heading for 'crash and burn'.
Then perhaps, and just perhaps, (appropriatly) a phoenix will rise from the ashes?
So you don't think the idea of starting with a voluntary scheme and moving to a mandatory scheme won't work and that the goverment will have to ban falconry to wake up the UK falconers and get them to unite?

[Argee]

Paul,A.K.A.
'Hawkmaster' devoted MUCH time and effort and that of his family on just such a support structure here in our area ..
It is to be remarked upon that much good has come out of it with one or more of his 'attendees' giving time to courses run in local centres such as First Aid places and a local village evening school and visiting local schools for daytime pupils and even Heritage based quangos that ban Birds of PREY BEING EVEN WALKED ACROSS THE LAND ...
They also helped at a Chernobyl event as well among the many things that have come out of Hawkmaster and family /friends support ..
There you go not a club but a loose association driven by one intense 'drug/passion' ..
(*v*) ...

[Argee]

I can see Falconry in the UK,( as a Field Sport, in its true meaning) heading for 'crash and burn'.
Then perhaps, and just perhaps, (appropriatly) a phoenix will rise from the ashes?

be interesting to see the 'flying weight' of a Pheonix :yawinkle:
(*v*) ...

[Venividevenatio]

So you don't think the idea of starting with a voluntary scheme and moving to a mandatory scheme won't work and that the goverment will have to ban falconry to wake up the UK falconers and get them to unite?

Not quite that scenario, but close. The voluntary scheme towards a mandatory idea is commendable, but I can not see it happening.
Unfortunatly.


It was bandied about years ago, just prior to the Wildlife and Countryside Act becoming law. Falconery elders, many of whom are still here, kicked it into touch, as their was no need.
That is not a total criticism of these people, as there were not many falconers, unlike now.
It was a different situation completly.

[AndyUK]

Andy,

Let me summarize so I can see if I get your points.

There is broad agreement that the UK needs something.

In the future, it could be too hard as the standard could become more like the US.

The LANTRA administered scheme is to easy and you think someone is going to get rich on £35 or less you'd pay now.

The breeders should be regulated instead of the falconers especially centres.

Have I got the basic points correct?


basicly yes mate

im not saying somones geting rich off this but im reading the asessment notes now and i dont see the problem its going to solve

its a nice idea but it doesnt solve the problems so it serves to highlite everything else that needs looking at how long b4 deffra look at all this and decide we need stricter rules ?

wile we have no regulation when things go wrong the perseption is its because of a lack of regulation
put the regs inplace and when somthing goes wrong its a biger reflection on falconry as a whole

these things always start at the bottom the lantra award wont stop poor breeders selling birds to any idiot with a few quid they wont stop the displays run by morons infact if anything it will add credibility to some corses run by centers that shouldnt be open in the first place

so then we need more regulation and it'll start from the bottom again

i just dont see any middle ground on this we either start down this road and see where it leads or we dont
if tony blairs goverment get there hands on falconry it'll go the way of foxhunting mate they will see it no difrently to hare corsing or foxhunting

basicly poor regulation is worse than none because it just shows up all the areas where we go wrong

i dont think that just centers and breeders should be regulated but rather anything like this should start from the top and work its way down

it may be the case that its too late to properly sort everything out without going along the lines of the u.s system and god knows how much hastle that will cause

i realy dont know what the answer is but lantra wont solve all the problems as it stands now

Andy.........

[Tim Laycock]

there were a compotent apprentise scheme for the UK.

Find a lamp and rub it, its your best chance of a wish come true! :lol:

[BlackHawke]

whats stopping the more unsrupulous trainers really pushing their own apprentaship schemes making more money. with the lantra added to the end of it???

also how long will it be before the lantra scheme starts going up in price??
dont know all the details and restrictions so thought i'd ask

[ACCIPITER-GENTILIS]

Find a lamp and rub it, its your best chance of a wish come true!

yes but we better be carefull what we wish for:heart: :goodman:

[ACCIPITER-GENTILIS]

you no what i mean tim:supz:

[Tim Laycock]

:yawinkle: :lol:

[JFSeaman]

whats stopping the more unsrupulous trainers really pushing their own apprentaship schemes making more money. with the lantra added to the end of it???

also how long will it be before the lantra scheme starts going up in price??
dont know all the details and restrictions so thought i'd ask
The unscrupulous trainers can do that now and do.

If a nationally reconnized scheme were available through the clubs for free (yeah and £15 for the admin and cert) then it would put pressure on the fly by nights to get our or get legit.

The certified trainers get assesed themselves in order to keep their status with the HB (through LANTRA).

[Jarreth]

there were a compotent apprentise scheme for the UK.


I am trying to do something about this, but I'm just one person! I am going as fast as I can.....mutter mutter. Were you thinking of helping by any chance?

[Jarreth]

whats stopping the more unsrupulous trainers really pushing their own apprentaship schemes making more money. with the lantra added to the end of it???

also how long will it be before the lantra scheme starts going up in price??
dont know all the details and restrictions so thought i'd ask


You miserable ****** Blackhawke, your looking for problems that haven't even had chance to materialise. Your C**K might fall off as well!

[OutFlying]

20,000 BOP owners, 2000 ish are in clubs - why would the 18,000 now join and complete an apprenticeship unless it was a legal requirement ?

Jim.

[OutFlying]

20,000 BOP owners, 2000 ish are in clubs - why would the 18,000 now join and complete an apprenticeship unless it was a legal requirement ?

Jim.

JF, before you start - I am in a club.

[BlackHawke]

You miserable ****** Blackhawke, your looking for problems that haven't even had chance to materialise. Your C**K might fall off as well!

sorry dee!!:roll: :oops: ;) :lol: lol

[Jarreth]

there were a compotent apprentise scheme for the UK.


I'd settle for a competent apprentice, really I would!

[JFSeaman]

basicly yes mate

im not saying somones geting rich off this but im reading the asessment notes now and i dont see the problem its going to solve

its a nice idea but it doesnt solve the problems so it serves to highlite everything else that needs looking at how long b4 deffra look at all this and decide we need stricter rules ?

wile we have no regulation when things go wrong the perseption is its because of a lack of regulation
put the regs inplace and when somthing goes wrong its a biger reflection on falconry as a whole

these things always start at the bottom the lantra award wont stop poor breeders selling birds to any idiot with a few quid they wont stop the displays run by morons infact if anything it will add credibility to some corses run by centers that shouldnt be open in the first place

so then we need more regulation and it'll start from the bottom again

i just dont see any middle ground on this we either start down this road and see where it leads or we dont
if tony blairs goverment get there hands on falconry it'll go the way of foxhunting mate they will see it no difrently to hare corsing or foxhunting

basicly poor regulation is worse than none because it just shows up all the areas where we go wrong

i dont think that just centers and breeders should be regulated but rather anything like this should start from the top and work its way down

it may be the case that its too late to properly sort everything out without going along the lines of the u.s system and god knows how much hastle that will cause

i realy dont know what the answer is but lantra wont solve all the problems as it stands now

Andy.........


I agree with the 'as it stands now' but you have to LOOK TO THE FUTURE.

The HB/LANTRA scheme could work if there was a high degree of participation and it would keep the government out of the process unless there was a legal violation.

It amazes me that the majority of responders to the threads agree that something needs to be done and soon but when there is a program on offer it is rebutted as either not enough or no teethe or for new people or breeders but not for me.

You seem willing to hand falconry over to an 'anti' controlled government. The results being that falconry could be banned, all regulations will be ignored and people will get fines and/or go to jail for wildlife violations. Result, no improvement. At least with the HB/LANTRA scheme there is a chance.

The HB/LANTRA scheme is an attempt by falconers to keep falconers in control of administering a viable accredited apprentise/education/skills scheme.

The 'Beginning Falconry' award is just that a beginning. Soon to be followed by and 'Advanced Falconry' award. I can't remember the outline but it is much more like what we would all want.

In the end, whether government controlled or falconry controlled, it's all voluntary. You don't have to be come a falconer. There are things you need to do if you are to be come a falconer. Why not have falconers control what the standards are instead of a government that has no clue. Is the PM a falconer, no. Are there any MPs that are falconers, I doubt it and becuase of the possibility of negatives from lack of a scheme wouldn't let anyone know anyway.

For all of you posting againsts the HB/LANTRA scheme, we know you would pass an assesment with little effort other than showing up and demonstrating your knowledge and handling skills. You will pass the advanced assesment with the same effort.

What are you afraid of. How can you expect someone else to follow even an informal scheme when you won't walk the walk or talk the talk. By in action and negativity to the only scheme on offer you are handing falconry to the antis.

Top down doesn't work. Look at;
The US falconry laws
The UK fox hunting laws

Botton up works. Unfortunately, look at;
The anti lobby.
The christial coalition.

We need our own bottom up to show that we are more responsable than the anti's. Self policing can work. The bird fanciers have a much better united voice than we do. Why can't we find some way to show a better side of ourselfs.

Some of you say the HB/LANTRA won't solve the problem, I say it is a start at solving the problem. At the end of the day these are just opinions.

Give it a chance to mature and participate. To me if you participate then when some naf kills a bird you can have a much more athoritative voice to say he should have/could have and it would have saved the bird.

The reasons to support it go on and on.

With the new Animal Welfare bill, there is a clause that states 'if it could cause harm' not if it does. Not having an accredited certificate of qualification to keep a raptor could be and instant violation of the law. Poof, falconry banned. Not at some far off time, but next year when the law passes.

Give it a chance, don't try to kill it because it's not perfect. Participate and help make it better, help preserve falconry for now and the future.

[JFSeaman]

I forgot one possibility.

Those of you who have been against it would have to be shown to change your mind and that's a hard thing to do. Far harder than passing either the beginning or advanced assesment.

If you've changed your mind and think even though flawed the HB/LANTRA scheme is better than loosing falconry. Show your colors! :supz: :supz:

[AndyUK]

i have every intention of doing the lantra scheme at a friends center later this year

im not afraid of anything im just a bit jaded about the whole thing having seen it go from a good idea through varios groups of people untill we ended up with the final draft

the asessment could have been a lot beter than it is now but its been watered down too much to suit some people

if this had been done years ago there would have been a beter chance of it working but now with so many centers run by morons and demos given by people who shouldnt own a dog let alone a number of hawks/falcons/owls that i cant see enough people doing the asessment for it to be viable

on an earlyer point about people making money from it how long will it be till centers are tacking an extra 100 quid on to a 5 day course because its the "official lantra scheme" i can think of at leat one


Andy.........

[JFSeaman]

i have every intention of doing the lantra scheme at a friends center later this year

im not afraid of anything im just a bit jaded about the whole thing having seen it go from a good idea through varios groups of people untill we ended up with the final draft

the asessment could have been a lot beter than it is now but its been watered down too much to suit some people

if this had been done years ago there would have been a beter chance of it working but now with so many centers run by morons and demos given by people who shouldnt own a dog let alone a number of hawks/falcons/owls that i cant see enough people doing the asessment for it to be viable

on an earlyer point about people making money from it how long will it be till centers are tacking an extra 100 quid on to a 5 day course because its the "official lantra scheme" i can think of at leat one


Andy.........
Andy,

Glad to hear that you are willing to give assesment a try. That's one more peg against those 20,000 pet keepers (where did he get that number?)

Yes it's too watered down for me as well but more modules are on the way. We can push to make it harder in the future.

Yes it would have been easier if it had been done years ago byt we can't change the past (yet).

Now that I've been through the process and from a discussion at a centre yesterday, course providers (centers or indivuals) shouldn't be allowed to asses their own students. All assesment should be indipendant of the course provider. Club apprentice scheme are a little different as there is no profit motive so a club should be allowed to asses it's own members.

[JFSeaman]

20,000 BOP owners, 2000 ish are in clubs - why would the 18,000 now join and complete an apprenticeship unless it was a legal requirement ?

Jim.
Interesting numbers. None I've hear before.

It's harsh but what you are saying is the same attituded that we sould give up fighting bigotry, racism and all other ism's because we will never win.

Your idea that the only solution has to be a government solution (legal requirment). When did the government, US or UK ever get something right for this kind of situation.

I'd rather we controlled the standards and force the government to support them, back them and give them some teeth on our terms.

It is possible of you try, it isn't possible if you don't try.

[Big JoeJoe]

Interesting numbers. None I've hear before.

It's harsh but what you are saying is the same attituded that we sould give up fighting bigotry, racism and all other ism's because we will never win.

Your idea that the only solution has to be a government solution (legal requirment). When did the government, US or UK ever get something right for this kind of situation.

I'd rather we controlled the standards and force the government to support them, back them and give them some teeth on our terms.

It is possible of you try, it isn't possible if you don't try.

Prejudice and racisim that is a poor comparison to fight your fight, both are governed by law and will not be tolarated by most decent people. I wish you would stop clutching at straws to make a point.

Cheers Joe

[OutFlying]

Nice assessment Joe ;)

[Tim Laycock]

I bet some evidence was cross refferenced to arrive at that level of competence :supz: :lol:

[OutFlying]

of "course"

[Tim Laycock]

<vbg>

[Barbary Boy]

your all fools! nothing is going to save us! falconry is doomed. to many lurcher , ferreter types now flying harris hawks? lantra? good idea but 25yrs to late! were ****ed! by our own success, dont blame the breeders ! blame the fly by night centers, they have a huge amount to answer for, flying ****ing owls for the publics delight and generally talking ******** about falconry and thier birds. THEY should be more regulated! coz most of them are run by complete ******s

[Tim Laycock]

I heartily concur :shock:

[JFSeaman]

Prejudice and racisim that is a poor comparison to fight your fight, both are governed by law and will not be tolarated by most decent people. I wish you would stop clutching at straws to make a point.

Cheers Joe
But you get the point or you wouldn't have been able to literate a response.

[JFSeaman]

your all fools! nothing is going to save us! falconry is doomed. to many lurcher , ferreter types now flying harris hawks? lantra? good idea but 25yrs to late! were ****ed! by our own success, dont blame the breeders ! blame the fly by night centers, they have a huge amount to answer for, flying ****ing owls for the publics delight and generally talking ******** about falconry and thier birds. THEY should be more regulated! coz most of them are run by complete ******s

who's the fool the fool that trys or the fool that gives up.

Barbary Boy, what was your first exposure to raptors and at what age?

[Big JoeJoe]

But you get the point or you wouldn't have been able to literate a response.

After assessing your statement JF, my response was to your poor comparison:rolleyes:

[Jiff]

online falconry, have the federal exam on one of it's pages, i just got 61% but i have to admit that some of the species questions were complete guesses, and i would admit that if i had to sit an exam that would be my down fall, not the husbandry but the stuff like migratory habbits of certain birds, i suppose that because they're allowed to trap theire own bird they must know more of the species habbits ect. also i have no idea what some of the american hawks look like. this doesnt make me bad at falconry, does it?
as for too many lurcher/ferreters flying harris' it's a good job you've got some lads with a bit of bottle behind you's for when the antis start to worry you. i don't give a fart, and it gets up my nose when so called passionate sportsmen and women start worrying about bans and other silly little complications,fm all, and do what you gotta do, and fly you're bird, run you're dog, hunt whatever you want. it's gods pantry!

[Argee]

online falconry, have the federal exam on one of it's pages, i just got 61% but i have to admit that some of the species questions were complete guesses, and i would admit that if i had to sit an exam that would be my down fall, not the husbandry but the stuff like migratory habbits of certain birds, i suppose that because they're allowed to trap theire own bird they must know more of the species habbits ect. also i have no idea what some of the american hawks look like. this doesnt make me bad at falconry, does it?
as for too many lurcher/ferreters flying harris' it's a good job you've got some lads with a bit of bottle behind you's for when the antis start to worry you. i don't give a fart, and it gets up my nose when so called passionate sportsmen and women start worrying about bans and other silly little complications,fm all, and do what you gotta do, and fly you're bird, run you're dog, hunt whatever you want. it's gods pantry!

ah .. sorry Jiff ....
don't believe in a god..
regards ,
(*v*) ...

[Jiff]

well you get my drift tho,

[JFSeaman]

But still an important issue.

[JFSeaman]

With exposure from game fairs, my clubs have a number of new members.

Time to put words to practice.