View Full Version : Mike Mcdermott
Wheres he from??Is he a sparviter of the highest degree!
FlameHairedFalconer
14-09-2006, 11:15 PM
http://www.americanfalconry.com/recipe.html
Talon
14-09-2006, 11:52 PM
hes wrote some great books.once met him at raptor fare agood few years ago
when it was held near lemmington spar.
nice bloke to talk too as well.
Tasha55403
15-09-2006, 02:26 AM
I believe he live's in Missouri, though I don't know if that's where he's from.
Mike just moved to a new house west of St Louis,Missouri. Hes flying a Peales peri and just started a Gyr/ peri that he'll be flying at ducks along the Mississippi Flyway. And yes, he's from Missouri. Kurt
IAmTheWeasel
15-09-2006, 06:06 PM
He will be the guest speaker for the Texas hawking associations meet this January. I headr that he will be speaking on hacking Goshawks to aid in resolution of behavioral problems.
I thought McDermott had written the recipe if this is the case why would he need to hack a gos to solve any problems
or are these goshawks he is recommending hacking failed attempts at trying to get the recipe right? Alf.
He will be the guest speaker for the Texas hawking associations meet this January. I headr that he will be speaking on hacking Goshawks to aid in resolution of behavioral problems.
Tim Laycock
15-09-2006, 08:47 PM
I thought McDermott had written the recipe if this is the case why would he need to hack a gos to solve any problems
or are these goshawks he is recommending hacking failed attempts at trying to get the recipe right? Alf.
:lol:
Recently he worked with a tame hacked Cooper's Hawk that he said may have been one of the best birds he'd seen.
GregMik
16-09-2006, 06:13 AM
Explain to me why falconers have to put down anybody that writes a book? He has a disclaimer in both books....that basicly said..."this is what worked for me". If you follow the recipe he has set out you will have "This". How many ppl do you know that have followed to the letter what he stated you had to do?
Greg
OutFlying
16-09-2006, 07:44 AM
Well pointed out Greg, his books are a fresh approach to the usual falconry book.
Jim.
Tim Laycock
16-09-2006, 08:13 AM
Pretty much my sentiments expressed on the other thread.
A few years ago everyone scoffed at imprint accipiters. (Myself included :shock:)
The "crack" of light round the door keeps getting bigger :supz:
GregMik
16-09-2006, 08:22 AM
The problem is....If you actually meet Mike. It is hard to follow the recipe. If you were to bake a cake and modify an ingredient, would you expect the same outcome? I bet not. He has set a recipe on what he does to fly an accipiter. Can you take some of what he does for yourself....Of course. There is a load of good info there. Can you get the results he does if you change something? No...You changed something, then it is not the recipe he has set out in the book. Mike is an awesome imprint accipiter guy, yes he is better than you Alf. He just put into a book what he does. He is also a very nice guy, he will help you out in a heart beat. Mike is an accipiter type personality, so once you meet him you will understand the book.
Greg
Greg I am sure he does know how to put things in words better than me.
I haven’t once said the recipe doesn’t work, like you say it’s just a little difficult to get all the ingredients together.
I bet the outcome of marred hawks is 10 to 1? 9 hawks turning out not the way the recipe describes.
Alf.
The problem is....If you actually meet Mike. It is hard to follow the recipe. If you were to bake a cake and modify an ingredient, would you expect the same outcome? I bet not. He has set a recipe on what he does to fly an accipiter. Can you take some of what he does for yourself....Of course. There is a load of good info there. Can you get the results he does if you change something? No...You changed something, then it is not the recipe he has set out in the book. Mike is an awesome imprint accipiter guy, yes he is better than you Alf. He just put into a book what he does. He is also a very nice guy, he will help you out in a heart beat. Mike is an accipiter type personality, so once you meet him you will understand the book.
Greg
Tim Laycock
16-09-2006, 09:22 AM
I bet the outcome of marred hawks is 10 to 1? 9 hawks turning out not the way the recipe describes.
Alf.
Alf,
I bet your spot on the money there!
Very easy to make a dogs dinner of an imprint.
I would have estimated the ratio of marred p/r to be 7/10
I have a starter menu for training spars,they all turn out differently,all hunt with passion,all being obedient,yet it would only take a paragraph to write,same with falcons im afraid,old,basic and simple!Tend to think we all get a tad over complicated regarding hawking nowadays!
Ben C
16-09-2006, 10:43 AM
I have read the book, and in fact I am still dipping back into it......I found it a brilliant read and my hat goes off to him most definately. I have even reconsidered the use of baggies and the issues around that thorny idea!!! Obviously I would not carry it out in the UK, but he presents it in a different light. A mans gotta do what a mans gotta do......nature is not so hazy I suppose.
Bottom line: He says quite clearly this is what he does and it may or may no work and in fact it changes all the time........very very open ended and not at all rigid.
Bearing in mind I have not flown a Goshawk......................................:lol:
GregMik
16-09-2006, 10:51 AM
Greg I am sure he does know how to put things in words better than me.
I haven’t once said the recipe doesn’t work, like you say it’s just a little difficult to get all the ingredients together.
I bet the outcome of marred hawks is 10 to 1? 9 hawks turning out not the way the recipe describes.
Alf.
No the reason it doesn't work is you changed one ingredient of the recipe. Not because the recipe is flawed.
Greg
GregMik
16-09-2006, 10:54 AM
I have a starter menu for training spars,they all turn out differently,all hunt with passion,all being obedient,yet it would only take a paragraph to write,same with falcons im afraid,old,basic and simple!Tend to think we all get a tad over complicated regarding hawking nowadays!
Ok Dean,
Put your money were your mouth is....put it in print.
Greg
Ben C
16-09-2006, 11:06 AM
I can see this turning into a very VERY interesting thread...................:supz:
Cross wires here somewhere. I didn’t say McDermott’s methods wouldn’t work! It’s all those falconer who try his methods yet don’t fit all the ingredients together. How many failed attempts must there bee to realise that it’s a difficult job to get right. there should be a warning label on the front cover stipulating that if unless the recipe is adhered to the letter the outcome could back fire on you. Alf.
No the reason it doesn't work is you changed one ingredient of the recipe. Not because the recipe is flawed.
Greg
Gosman_2
16-09-2006, 12:09 PM
I have a coy of the imprint accipiter and a good book it is but lets get one thing straight all of what he calls the recipe has been done before he has just put it into print the reason no one in this country would write such a book is 90% of it is ilegal here in the uk
GyrXPeales
16-09-2006, 12:16 PM
The trouble is you're both spot on. Alf I think your pretty close on your percentages, and Greg you hit the nail on the head brother.
How many people do you know that say they followed the recipe "for the most part", quite a few I bet.
Most will balk at the way Mike uses baggies, or at the very least where he uses them, pretty bold stuff if you ask me. How many people do you know that say "I modified that part", or "I used carcasses instead", or " the wife would never let me do that in our house, LOL".
The other place people miss it is in the amount of time that is involved in turning out a good imprint of any kind. It's easy to turn out a good, well behaved, quiet imprint, but the amount of time and dedication involved is staggering. Most just don't have the level of discipline required, or the amount of time needed to turn out a good imprint and most try to take short cuts, not a good idea.
I think there are dangers inherent in trying to learn anything from a book. For some people it's a breeze, others just never get it. All would benefit from actually seeing the process first hand.
I think Mikes level of detail in that book was an attempt to help the reader visualize the process, some get it, some don't. It's certainly not a beginners book. Mike also has an advantage that most of us don't, a family that is fully involved in the process, if he is not there, his wife is, or his children are, that is a huge advantage as his wife flys and trains the birds at the same level he does.
Mullenix wrote his book "American Kestrels in Modern Falconry", nice little book, not nearly the level of detail that Mike wrote. But the level of success from reading the book is about the same as Mikes. Why, because people pick and choose the parts of the process they want to do.
I think it would be better to follow the process as it is laid out and get an understanding of it before you try to modify it.
We've had some very good falconers try to fly Kestrels around here, some of the best never caught a bird. Not because they weren't good falconers, but because they didn't understand the program. They didn't need help, and they wouldn't come and watch and learn and ask questions, they were too good for that. On the other hand everyone from the most inexperienced novice to master falconers that took the time to read the book, and more importantly took the time to come out with us and watch the process, flew their birds to good success, EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM.
Find someone who has had success with the recipe and watch them, ask questions and learn first hand.
You guys in the UK, get ah old of Alf or Dean or someone like them, bug the **** out of them:yawinkle: :lol: PMSL, ask questions, and watch them.
There are lots of ways to train birds, some will not be for you, what ever method you choose find someone that has a method that is compatible with your lifestyle and learn from them.
Does the recipe work, of course it does, but as Greg pointed out you just can't change the ingredients or the order of their incorporation and expect the finished product to turn out right.
Just my thoughts.
Regards,
Jeff
Originally Posted by goshawk4
Greg I am sure he does know how to put things in words better than me.
I haven’t once said the recipe doesn’t work, like you say it’s just a little difficult to get all the ingredients together.
I bet the outcome of marred hawks is 10 to 1? 9 hawks turning out not the way the recipe describes.
Alf.
No the reason it doesn't work is you changed one ingredient of the recipe. Not because the recipe is flawed.
Greg
Ok Dean,
Put your money were your mouth is....put it in print.
Greg Trouble is Greg,Its already been put into print,millions of times over...........My training regime is nothin special it just works!!!!!
Ben C
16-09-2006, 01:30 PM
Superb post................very interesting.......also i think the use of roost hawking helped the Kestrels along....I am not sure if too many folk in the UK do that eiher (but I may be wrong)
Tasha55403
16-09-2006, 04:21 PM
Well, I tried to give you a rep point for your post Jeff, but it appears it isn't working yet:lol: From my point of view as someone struggling with an imprint accipiter you've got it dead in the black. There is NOTHING as good as seeing it done first hand to help. Boy, do I wish there were someone experienced close by I could watch training and hunting a small accipiter. I DO learn well from books, but it can't convey everything I need it to. All the subtle handling techniques and methods, watching the body language and having someone who can say "this is what's going on" and "this is what you do when this happens". In spite of having books and folks on the internet I still feel like I'm trying to reinvent the wheel. The more I work with Marker, the more I actually UNDERSTAND what Mike says in his book. I read it and kind of understood it, but now, I really understand, deep down, what he's saying and why. It's like a coloring book-Mike's book sets out the lines, but only with experience have I been able to color it in and make it look real. And I would guess it's a problem many folks have.
Oh, and the Accipitrine Behavioral Problems book is not strictly for birds raised by the Recipe-it's supposed to be for all accipiters, including problem passage birds.
Another thing to keep in mind-it's all about what you find acceptable and not. You (this is a general you and not aimed at anyone specific, I'd like to point out) are happy with your methods and that's what counts. But, you also say that you EXPECT spars to be aggressive, possessive, sticky-footed birds ( http://www.falconryforum.co.uk/showthread.php?p=380397#post380397 ). Mcdermott, on the other hand, says they don't need to be this way. I didn't feed my first sharpie on the glove until I put him up for the molt and he was never sticky-footed. I had no idea it could be so obnoxious until I started feeding Marker on the fist (at a much earlier stage). It's one of the most annoying things about her. But, from what I can tell, most of you would say that's not a problem-that's just the way they are. It all comes down to what you think is acceptable and what not.
Jastreb
16-09-2006, 04:33 PM
I read both McDermotts books and I think they are more than useful. Also, as Jeff said, Imprint Accipiter is not a beginner's book. It is funny, when somebody, I mean beginner, said that he would like to do it half on McDermotts way and half on his way. What is his way when he never tried it before. If you can use baggies in the US, use them, if you can't, don't use them-it's very easy!!!!!
If you are going to make your first imprint, and you are going to make it half with help of the Recepie and half on your own, you will probably have problem bird-MAYBE NOT!
Do it as he said, and then you will know is it good or not, or do it on your way and try to compare it with somebody who did it exactly on his way-if you don't have time, and you are not ready to fight with some problems- DO NOT TRY TO MAKE AN IMPRINT AND DON'T RUIN A GOOD BIRD!
Cheers Viktor
Ben C
16-09-2006, 06:17 PM
Viktor: As we both know the recipe is not the only way, Zlatko's Spar was taken at 3 and a half weeks if I remember correctly and she was the most amazing thing I have ever seen. Perhaps his methods need to be written down for all to learn from!!!!
I am all ears! Please tell us a little more? Alf.
Viktor: As we both know the recipe is not the only way, Zlatko's Spar was taken at 3 and a half weeks if I remember correctly and she was the most amazing thing I have ever seen. Perhaps his methods need to be written down for all to learn from!!!!
GyrXPeales
16-09-2006, 06:56 PM
Well, I tried to give you a rep point for your post Jeff, but it appears it isn't working yet:lol: From my point of view as someone struggling with an imprint accipiter you've got it dead in the black. There is NOTHING as good as seeing it done first hand to help. Boy, do I wish there were someone experienced close by I could watch training and hunting a small accipiter. I DO learn well from books, but it can't convey everything I need it to. All the subtle handling techniques and methods, watching the body language and having someone who can say "this is what's going on" and "this is what you do when this happens". In spite of having books and folks on the internet I still feel like I'm trying to reinvent the wheel. The more I work with Marker, the more I actually UNDERSTAND what Mike says in his book. I read it and kind of understood it, but now, I really understand, deep down, what he's saying and why. It's like a coloring book-Mike's book sets out the lines, but only with experience have I been able to color it in and make it look real. And I would guess it's a problem many folks have.
Oh, and the Accipitrine Behavioral Problems book is not strictly for birds raised by the Recipe-it's supposed to be for all accipiters, including problem passage birds.
Another thing to keep in mind-it's all about what you find acceptable and not. You (this is a general you and not aimed at anyone specific, I'd like to point out) are happy with your methods and that's what counts. But, you also say that you EXPECT spars to be aggressive, possessive, sticky-footed birds ( http://www.falconryforum.co.uk/showthread.php?p=380397#post380397 ). Mcdermott, on the other hand, says they don't need to be this way. I didn't feed my first sharpie on the glove until I put him up for the molt and he was never sticky-footed. I had no idea it could be so obnoxious until I started feeding Marker on the fist (at a much earlier stage). It's one of the most annoying things about her. But, from what I can tell, most of you would say that's not a problem-that's just the way they are. It all comes down to what you think is acceptable and what not.
Viktor no truer words were ever spoken, imprints are not for everyone, so why screw up a good bird, you need some hands on help and advise for the first one.
Tasha, just by what you said above, you've got a very good handle on the imprint process. You're fortunate to be able to learn from books, more fortunate still to be able to see the subtleties contained within McDermott's book. I think if his method were followed to the letter you could turn out a good bird. But you could turn out just as good of a bird with any other method that you were comfortable with. Alf and Dean turn out great birds, and you're turning out one as we speak although I'm not quite sure you realize it yet. But when it comes down to it, none of the methods you guys use are all that different from each other.
Mike's book does describe a particular method for imprinting a bird, but the bigger lesson, the part that is not put down in black and white in the book, is the picture it paints of the whole imprint process. You were clever enough to see it, not many people do.
Imprints are not trained at least not in the normal sense. 99.9% of the training that occurs with an imprint is socialization, at least as far as the bird is concerned, you're just hanging out together. McDermott describes introducing things to the bird at different stages. What he does is not as important as how he does it. The things he does are brought into the birds life so subtlety that it is just as natural to the bird as breathing, it's just the way life is to them. It's a mind game, at least for the first season, and that's the main lesson you should take away from the book.
Those that are good at the imprint process know this, whether on a conscious level or not. Alf and Dean know it and so do you, your trouble right now is you know a lot more than you think you do. What frustrates most people on imprints is that they think they need to have a lot of kills the first season, it's just not true. They do need a good kill ratio to keep them interested but it's far more important to make sure that the slips you give them are the very best quality and have a very high chance of success. You have to be disciplined, you can't just slip them on something just because YOU'RE frustrated.
Hunt their arses off the first season, but don't settle for anything less than the best slip. Chances are they're not going to show you their best stuff the first season, you should be looking ahead to the second or third season. If you stay disciplined this season and don't compromise you will see the benefits of flying an imprint, technique is everything the first season. Imprinting is mostly about instinct and you seem to have that in spades, just trust it and relax and go with it, you'll be fine.
Best Regards,
Jeff
Ben C
16-09-2006, 07:25 PM
I am all ears! Please tell us a little more? Alf.
Dean: I am not fluent in Croatian so cannot relay it faithfully, I will leave that to Viktor, but I was and am as astounded as you at that snippet of information. Zlatko was a soldier in the Croatian army, a straight up guy, a serious falconer and not one to tell false hoods.
I am not Dean, my name is Alf.
Dean: I am not fluent in Croatian so cannot relay it faithfully, I will leave that to Viktor, but I was and am as astounded as you at that snippet of information. Zlatko was a soldier in the Croatian army, a straight up guy, a serious falconer and not one to tell false hoods.
Ben C
16-09-2006, 08:21 PM
Alf...I apologise profusely..........but the same words apply. In fact I have just had an email from Jastreb to tell me that Zlatko has just had three kills on the very same spar I am talking about!
No problem mate. I am interested! Is this his young spar of this year? And was it three kills in one outing and I would like to know if possible what she or he had killed? I am and always will be interested with anything to do with spars. Cheers mate.
Alf...I apologise profusely..........but the same words apply. In fact I have just had an email from Jastreb to tell me that Zlatko has just had three kills on the very same spar I am talking about!
I am not Dean, my name is Alf. Alfs better with feathered birds than I,Im just a pussy magnet:yawinkle:
Ben C
16-09-2006, 08:36 PM
The spar is not of the year, I was there when it was entered. In fact I have it on film if your interested???? (not a fair flight but entered none the less) The three kills were on one outing if I am not mistaken (I may be wrong, so please let Jastreb tell you otherwise).
Alf, this little spar is dynamite, she stooped on a hare after taking a 70 metre strike at quail.....she is an AWESOME little accipiter.
They all are mate. Just some tend to be a little better than others. Alf.
The spar is not of the year, I was there when it was entered. In fact I have it on film if your interested???? (not a fair flight but entered none the less) The three kills were on one outing if I am not mistaken (I may be wrong, so please let Jastreb tell you otherwise).
Alf, this little spar is dynamite, she stooped on a hare after taking a 70 metre strike at quail.....she is an AWESOME little accipiter.
Dean I have heard this! Had a young girl banging on my bedroom door the other night, banging and banging she was in the end I had to let her out<g> Alf.
Alfs better with feathered birds than I,Im just a pussy magnet:yawinkle:
Ben C
16-09-2006, 09:02 PM
They all are mate. Just some tend to be a little better than others. Alf.
If you want the footage then just let me know.
IAmTheWeasel
16-09-2006, 09:19 PM
I thought McDermott had written the recipe if this is the case why would he need to hack a gos to solve any problems
or are these goshawks he is recommending hacking failed attempts at trying to get the recipe right? Alf.
The birds are other peoples problem birds. Ones that already have been "trained" by another falconer. He takes them and hacks them out. When he reclaims them, they can be re trained...I am speaking hear-say right now as I only hear this through the grapevine.
I would hazard a guess that these birds could be imprints. If you hack an imprint out for any length of time you are breaking the bond starting a fresh with a totally focused hawk that’s had its liberty for a period of time. A blank canvass so to speak. Alf.
The birds are other peoples problem birds. Ones that already have been "trained" by another falconer. He takes them and hacks them out. When he reclaims them, they can be re trained...I am speaking hear-say right now as I only hear this through the grapevine.
Ben C
16-09-2006, 09:37 PM
Why???
Ben if you could click on quote we could all see who you are asking your question to.
If it’s me, why what? Alf.
Why???
Ben C
16-09-2006, 10:05 PM
Sorry Alf: But why are you breaking a bond if you hack an imprint??? I am thinking specifically of Dave Jones' videos..............not I hasten to add, my own, first hand experience of hacking goshawks etc etc:yawinkle:
Gosman_2
16-09-2006, 10:08 PM
I would hazard a guess that these birds could be imprints. If you hack an imprint out for any length of time you are breaking the bond starting a fresh with a totally focused hawk that’s had its liberty for a period of time. A blank canvass so to speak. Alf.
The best spar iv ever had [and iv had many good ones] was imprinted by the breeder in his house with 10 other spars then when they were hard penned he loost them in a outside aviary for about 3 weeks fed them as much as they could eat then and only then he let me have mine
Ben I am thinking spars here! Sorry mate. Can only imagine getting back a spar I had lost some three weeks later that had been living free having no human contact hunting isolated gaining its fear response .
I could see a different hawk coming back. Alf.
Sorry Alf: But why are you breaking a bond if you hack an imprint??? I am thinking specifically of Dave Jones' videos..............not I hasten to add, my own, first hand experience of hacking goshawks etc etc:yawinkle:
Ben I am thinking spars here! Sorry mate. Can only imagine getting back a spar I had lost some three weeks later that had been living free having no human contact hunting isolated gaining its fear response .
I could see a different hawk coming back. Alf. Cant see it coming bloody back Alf!!!!!!:yawinkle:
Gosman_2
16-09-2006, 10:19 PM
The result of the break with him and time left in the aviary did something iv never been able to match imprinting from scratch she was totally bomb proof totally silent and never showed any agression and reguarly caught 3 or 4 magpies a night in fact she was perfect
Ben to add, I think although not sure that most of these problem hawks will have been entered at some stage Hacking a hawk that already knows how to hunt I know for sure if I placed this spar I am flying now into a hack chamber the first time the chamber door was open you would never see her again
Permanently <g> Alf.
Ben I am thinking spars here! Sorry mate. Can only imagine getting back a spar I had lost some three weeks later that had been living free having no human contact hunting isolated gaining its fear response .
I could see a different hawk coming back. Alf.
Just missed your reply Dean of course we know we are both right! Alf.
Cant see it coming bloody back Alf!!!!!!:yawinkle:
Tim Laycock
17-09-2006, 12:21 AM
There is a world of difference between tame hacking an imprint and hacking an imprint
Tasha55403
17-09-2006, 12:25 AM
What's the difference between tame hacking and hacking? I'm guessing tame hacking you let the bird fly around then bring it home each night. Hacking you let it go free until it misses a meal, then trap it up again?
The cooper's were imprinted then allowed to fly free during the day and brought in in the evening to the lure. Appearently they stayed within about 1/4 mi of the house. Telemetry was used to keep tabs on them, I believe for 21 days. Kurt
Jastreb
17-09-2006, 09:32 AM
Hi,
Yes, Zlatko get that spar with almost 4 weeks. Some man cut the back yard conifer tree and he get the spar. Three other youngsters died when the tree was cut.
From that day he had his spar with him any single day (work,car etc.). He is keeping him inside the house during the most of the days and sometimes during the night. Its true, one of the tamest spar I ever seen in my life. Better than any of mine social imprints. You can take him in hand and change jesses and he'll not make any sound, like a budgie.
He had around 30 kills. He had 3 kills yesterday, small birds, and day before yesterday 2 partridges.
Cheers Viktor
Tim Laycock
17-09-2006, 11:34 AM
What's the difference between tame hacking and hacking? I'm guessing tame hacking you let the bird fly around then bring it home each night. Hacking you let it go free until it misses a meal, then trap it up again?
Essentialy yes,
The length of tame hack is governed by the imprints level of independence.
An imprint that is at hack (not tame hack) becomes fully independent
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