Pitch height?

[Venividevenatio]

I confess that I much prefer 'out of the hood' hawking with a longwing, but I acknowledge the grace ( and skill of the falconer) of the stoop with a gamehawk. To this end, I always like to teach my young longwings to 'wait on' to some degree, before progressing (!!!!!!!!) to 'out of hood ' flying. It has its uses. The falcon 'waits on' for a reflush if it has driven quarry to cover, and is more receptive to a recall signal, instead of looking elswhere.
And if the falcon does not have the ability and courage for 'out of the hood' pursuit hunting, then it is easier to go back to a 'waiting on style '.
Hoh! The Devil rides today!

Now, joking aside.

Several contributers have recently been talking of pitchs of 800' and 1000 to 1500' and kite training. Now, the game hawk needs to attain a good pitch to make the 'killing cone' effective. However, the higher the falcon goes, the wider the cone is, and correspondingly, the longer the falcon takes to reach its quarry. ( terminal velocities etc etc) And, the more time the quarry has to reach the safety of cover.
So the questions I would like answered are:

With average open ground, similar to that of Lincolnshire or the East Anglian fens, how high can a gamehawk go before the quarry has an escape due to the above?

How much distance is needed between, say, an average ,mid season, Grey Partridge and cover, for a Tiercel at 1500' not to fail in its stoop? ( I deliberatly did not use the 'weaker' Redleg)

Is there a possibility, that by training with a kite, or otherwise, to high pitchs, that negative training occurs, because the falcon does not get its kill?

Therefore, is the land available for succesful high altitude pitchs rather limited for gamehawkers in the UK?

[Dean]

Falcons pitch relies a lot on your own personal view on gamehawking,early on I loved my falcons to take up vast pitches,popping cloud a re-appearing,"Look at that"!!!!!However almost every stoop at flushed game cut the stoop short with game putting in!!!!Otherwise game was killed beyond my view,still taken and this was good enough for me as a serious beginner to longwinging!!!We must also remember that gamehawkers often tend to over dramatise where pitches are concerned!Long in the tooth now I settle for 300-500ft maximum pitches,this enables the falcon and your sport to be viewed in your field!!From this vantage your falcon can produce excellent stoops and collisions within the field of operations!It is obvious that a falcon waiting on at vast heights with ducks flushed beneath them will need a long drawn out angled descent to take its quarry!!Some people prefer these flights and love using there telemetry to retrieve their charges and good on em!!!!

[MattSpar]

Talking of a falcon's pitch, the next time you visit Salisbury, go to the cathedral, stand right at the base of the wall, and look up at the top of the spire. If any falcon of mine waited on reliably at that height I'd be delighted.

It's 400' tall.

[Paco]

Veni, The falcon adapt her pitch to the quarry they are served.
If you have a falcon all days at 200-300m and he doesn,t achieved the prey before it go to cover, the next days the falcon will fly lower to cath .
Then ,apart the training, the pitch of a falcon depend on the type of quarry an terrain.
The best way to have a very high pitch, is to serve preys than don,t go to cover and fly very fast.,so if the falcon is not very high he don,t achieve the prey.

By and thanks for the articles.

[GyrXPeales]

Falcons pitch relies a lot on your own personal view on gamehawking,early on I loved my falcons to take up vast pitches,popping cloud a re-appearing,"Look at that"!!!!!However almost every stoop at flushed game cut the stoop short with game putting in!!!!Otherwise game was killed beyond my view,still taken and this was good enough for me as a serious beginner to longwinging!!!We must also remember that gamehawkers often tend to over dramatise where pitches are concerned!Long in the tooth now I settle for 300-500ft maximum pitches,this enables the falcon and your sport to be viewed in your field!!From this vantage your falcon can produce excellent stoops and collisions within the field of operations!It is obvious that a falcon waiting on at vast heights with ducks flushed beneath them will need a long drawn out angled descent to take its quarry!!Some people prefer these flights and love using there telemetry to retrieve their charges and good on em!!!!

Dean that's a very good description of the progression that usually occurs in the life of a longwinger. You will put far more game to bag from a 250-500 foot pitch than from a 1000-1500+ foot pitch.
Having said that, it also depends on the type of quarry and country you are flying.
There are quite a few of us in the states that fly in vast open areas without the use of dogs. Under most circumstances when flying grouse, or when flying ducks on larger bodies of water, a lower pitch will end up giving you a lot more exercise than your bird. The grouse will run and the ducks won't flush.
I think part of the trouble in the area I live is that we use our birds for both grouse and duck. You can kill ducks off of small ponds all day long and much more efficiently from a 300' pitch than from 1000', but that's just not the case with grouse. You have to maintain the falcon's pitch for the day's that you do fly grouse. Grouse are tough to bring down with a single hit, you need the additional height to produce a decent pitch on the outrun if you are going to have a chance of a kill.
The Perlin on the other hand flies the kite from 1000' to 1500' for exercise, but she is served pigeons from 300' to 500'. I still put the kite up 1500' to allow a good deal of separation between the falcon and the bait. The Perlin will be flown in much more enclosed venues. To fly her from 1000' in an enclosed area would guarantee two things, no game in the bag and a lost bird as she would fly off in the distance looking for something she could Actually Kill.
Pitch should always be determined by the quarry and land you are flying, not the ego of the falconer.
Jeff

[MitchellBrad]

Personally I like birds that adjust their pitch to what your doing. I once had an anatum what would, back in the wet years, go check out every pond she could see and drop down to 500. Step out in the prairie and she'd motor up darn near our of sight. Head for a pond and she'd hurry down to 500. The 500 was my fault because we had a lot of little ponds which I couldn't stay away from. Fly her on lakes and she'd still catch ducks from 500'. She'd ignore the big flocks of ducks and nail the first one that decided to make a run for it. I once saw her grab a mallard over water, take out her pocket calculator and figure out her glide ratio then measure the distance to dry land. She let go and went back up. That bird didn't like getting her skirts wet. You could catch a duck a flight with that falcon which got me to yawning and trying to figure out just what I wanted to accomplish.

Pitch, much like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. When they come up here and complain about how low their birds are flying I often wonder to myself 2 things. First, who are they trying to impress and secondly, walk away from the flight if they arent' happy with the pitch. They never do. So you do the pitch you want and figure out how high you want the falcon to go for the quarry your flying. If any onlooker complains your welcome to have at them because most of these idiots have too many excuses when their head is on the chopping block. I've mentioned before what one guy said when he visited. The line was so classic I think it's worth mentioning again. When his young falcon went so high I had to pick up my jaw his only comment was, "I was hoping she'd do that." Those words were wisdom from a master.

[Venividevenatio]

Thanks to all those that have contributed so far........... The thread is more or less developing along the lines I had hoped for..............
And you experienced game hawkers are providing good knowledge from experience.

I had hoped that a few of you would pick up and run (or should that strike and carry!!) with all questions raised in my thread.
The reason for this is, some people who have had a couple of enjoyable years with a HH will want to try a gamehawking with a longwing.

If you more experienced gamehawkers would consider all of my questions, as a whole, it may go some way to help a 'would be gamehawker' assess what is required in the way of the characteristics and size of the land as well as technical ability.

This hopefuly may reduce the amount of disenchanted would be gamehawkers, and the number of failed or even lost hawks?

Those contributions already touching all of the questions are duly noted! Thanks in advance to others!

[GyrXPeales]

"First, who are they trying to impress and secondly, walk away from the flight if they aren't' happy with the pitch. They never do". Quote: Brad Mitchell

Bradley Mitchell, you go stand in the corner right now and don't move until you're told! LOL
You quoted the wrong words of wisdom at the end of your post. The true words of wisdom are your own as seen above.
WALK AWAY FROM THE FLIGHT IF YOU'RE NOT HAPPY WITH THE PITCH. The very essence of attaining and maintaining pitch with a longwing.
Now get out of the corner and give yourself a pat on the back.:supz: :supz: :supz:
Nice Brad,
Jeff
P.S Good thread Vini

[MitchellBrad]

WALK AWAY FROM THE FLIGHT IF YOU'RE NOT HAPPY WITH THE PITCH. The very essence of attaining and maintaining pitch with a longwing.
Now get out of the corner and give yourself a pat on the back.:supz: :supz: :supz:
Nice Brad,
Jeff
P.S Good thread Vini[/quote]

Thanks Jeff. Yes it is a good thread.

It's been pouring here up until today. My peales tiercel hasn't flown worth a hoot for the last 3 times out. No shame there just back to a little training. Pigeons need the exercise anyway:)

Incidentally since it's cleared off the migration is in full swing. Had 2 coops blast through the yard chasing the flock without any success. I think they have the coops figured out by now. Another was soaring over the loft no higher than 500 feet. No one bolted but they did keep an eye on it

Brad

[Dean]

It has been reported that a falcon in full stoop can acheive 70ft per second,therefore a 700ft pitch can be bottomed in 10 seconds,we have to put into the equasion position,rarely if ever a vertical collision,adding maybe another several seconds before impact,17 plus in all,nearer 20 secs!! 350ft pitches 10sec,700ft pitches 20secs,1400ft pitches 40secs,1500ft pitches nearing 50secs!!!How far do you reckon a grey partridge can get in almost a minute!!!!Bearing in mind man can do 100metres in approx 10seconds,shall we err on the side of approx half a mile due to imperfections!!!!!Reckon cover and sanctuary would be available before then on most english soil!!!!:yawinkle:

[Venividevenatio]

Thanks for your input Dean.
So, are you saying that this training of a falcon to pitches of above, say ( ball park figure) 500' ,are realy pointless for the hunting falcon over most of the UK terrain?

[Merger]

I think whats being said is that, the falcon will find its own pitch, depending on the ground size, and game being flushed! in lincolnshire, I would expect, min 500,ft, Im lucky in the fact I have a 7 season intermewd bird, that changes pitch to match ground cover size! but is wed to partridge, so always knows what to expect, and this I feel makes more of a difference, than we give credit for, from the birds point of view,, personally, I have had far more succses with pitch, by weding birds to one prey species only, so somtimes I cant fly!! tough!! small price to pay, for quality flights,,,

[Dean]

Thanks for your input Dean.
So, are you saying that this training of a falcon to pitches of above, say ( ball park figure) 500' ,are realy pointless for the hunting falcon over most of the UK terrain? Sometimes you can get success from pitches over 500ft and very impressive they are too,much more so than lower pitches attained,but here we require luck more so than judgement,I had one the other day with an inexperienced eyas,twas the mallard that made the flight and not the falcon!Percentage wise,yes,300ft-500ft max are very efficient with lowland gamehawking,above these heights we are losing the spectacle of verticals,evasive tactics of the quarry and obviously powdered impact!!!!I believe your total viewing of flight from start to finish should happen in the field of operations,or very near too!!!This also makes for a wedded falcon,therefore making hawking safer:yawinkle: If I were too train a falcon to a kite and attained a 1000ft pitch regularly before entering,the falcon would certainly have to lower its pitch naturally and quickly to gain success,thats why I work bottom up,often entering from as low as 100ft early season!