When does a hybrid become "pure"

[Grey_Squirrel_Hawker]

at what point would a hybrid that is bred back to one of its pure parent species become a "purebred"?

the reason i ask being that as some of you will be aware, gamekeepers often use white pheasants or ducks as "marker birds". the purpose of the marker being to make it obvious when a predator is visiting a release pen, a white bird amoung a load of normal birds will be conspicuous not only by its presence but also by its sudden absence.
although pheasants and duck have white variations, neither grey or redleg partridge do. but the close relative of the redleg, the chucker, does have a white form that is now being bred in the uk. as some are aware, the chukar and the redleg are very similar and hybridise freely, hence the chukar is banned from being released.
would it be possible to cross the white chukar with redleg and then pair back to redleg (with a bit of selective pairing to produce white hybrids) for several generations to produce a white redleg? hence my question, at what point would it be possible to consider these birds "pure" enough to legaly release them?

[Tim Laycock]

7/8 GyrXSakers are shown on A10s as Gyrs :rolleyes:

[Grey_Squirrel_Hawker]

7/8 GyrXSakers are shown on A10s as Gyrs :rolleyes:

im **** at maths, how many generations down the line is that? lol!

[LeighJauncey]

1. Gyr x Saker = 1/2 Gyr

2. Gyr x Gyr/Saker = 3/4 Gyr

3. Gyr x Gyr/Gyr/Saker = 7/8 Gyr

And so on....... will never be genetically pure but not so as you'd notice!

[Tim Laycock]

Put across better than I would have managed 8-)

[LeighJauncey]

Put across better than I would have managed 8-)

Only because I'm getting in practice for back to bleedin' school tomorrow and dark evenings to boot!:cry:

[Falcon911]

7/8 GyrXSakers are shown on A10s as Gyrs :rolleyes:

Strange - when I spoke to Defra they said pair a 7/8ths up with a pure and the offspring go down as pure. A bit inconsistent to say the least!

[Ross Ricks]

sorry to be a dumd ass but can someone explain what does GYRS mean or what does GYRS x SAKER mean,sorry if im jacking the tread as im very confused about this

kind regards ross

[Talon]

gyrs = gyr falcon

saker=saker falcon

gyr x saker= is a hybred a cross breed between the above mentioned birds

hope that helps.

[Tim Laycock]

Strange - when I spoke to Defra they said pair a 7/8ths up with a pure and the offspring go down as pure. A bit inconsistent to say the least!

Strange!

Just about puts Defra in a nut shell that does :yawinkle:

[Ross Ricks]

thanks talon thats great i just wasnt to sure was a gyrs a type of bird,thatnks for the info;-)

[Kentish Falconry]

7/8 GyrXSakers are shown on A10s as Gyrs :rolleyes:

7/8 Gyr x Sakers should not be put down as Pure by DEFRA.
My 7/8 Gyr x Sakers say just that on their Article 10's and the 15/16ths will say that as well.
Some breeders will argue the point with DEFRA and have them put down as Pure, saying the Saker has been bred out of them, this is not correct. I will not do this and my applications will always be for the % hybrid in the bird but I cannot speak for other breeders if DEFRA put ours down as Pure then the Specimin Certificate we issue from our own records will still show it as a Hybrid, why pull the wool over a customers eyes even if the chances of them finding out is almost zero it is not fair on the customer and it is not good for the Breeders reputation if it should come out at a later date.
So don't think all breeders are in it just for the money
Terry

[StormRider]

If someone wants to convince themselves about what they've got then they will do exactly that. Like Terry say's if its a hybrid then why claim anything else. A good breeder will be able to give you all the information you ask for and then some more. If you are looking for a particular trait in a bird and the breeder has it in his stock, then buy it.
My personal opinion is that once you have bred outside the purebred spectrum then it is a physical impossibility to get that original gene pool, chromosone or dna strand right back to where it came from. Therefore you could not possibly reverse the trend back to pure. Nature within a man made situation would dictate that.
Now I aint having a go at hybrids here, before anyone starts.
STU

[PeelsBells]

7/8 Gyr x Sakers should not be put down as Pure by DEFRA.
My 7/8 Gyr x Sakers say just that on their Article 10's and the 15/16ths will say that as well.
Some breeders will argue the point with DEFRA and have them put down as Pure, saying the Saker has been bred out of them, this is not correct. I will not do this and my applications will always be for the % hybrid in the bird but I cannot speak for other breeders if DEFRA put ours down as Pure then the Specimin Certificate we issue from our own records will still show it as a Hybrid, why pull the wool over a customers eyes even if the chances of them finding out is almost zero it is not fair on the customer and it is not good for the Breeders reputation if it should come out at a later date.
So don't think all breeders are in it just for the money
Terry


Terry why carnt other people think like you:supz:

[StoopDoggyDogg]

The official rule on when a hybrid becomes pure is when it becomes 1/16th or obviously less (1/32th etc). A 7/8ths gyr should officially state on the paperwork that it is a hybrid, but defra make input errors regulary.
DEFRA copied the 1/16th ruling from the cities regulations, so a bird which is 1/16th inpure could be imported to the uk and registered as a pure species.
I have records of lots of peregrines which are more than 1/16th hybrid but are registered as pure peregrinus, also subspecies are not recorded at all.

Steve

[Tim Laycock]

OK then :lol:

A 7/8 bird is put to a 7/8 bird, meanwhile another is put to another.

The offspring are put together and they breed, what are the progeny? :rolleyes:

[Harris]

7/8 + 7/8 =14/16 or 7/8 if they are put together you still get 7/8 :confused:

[Kentish Falconry]

7/8 + 7/8 =14/16 or 7/8 if they are put together you still get 7/8 :confused:

Genetically Correct Simon on paper that is

[Tim Laycock]

Balls, didnt even confuse anyone :x :rolleyes: :lol:

[Shaun Byrne]

So how would the price of a 7/8 Gyr Hybrid compare to a pure Gyr?

[Sprout]

So how would the price of a 7/8 Gyr Hybrid compare to a pure Gyr?

1/8th cheaper?????:wink:

[Shaun Byrne]

1/8th cheaper?????:wink:


Depends who is selling it:roll: :lol:

[Harris]

1/8th cheaper?????:wink:


:lol: Beat me to it!

[StoopDoggyDogg]

check this one out:

what percentage barbary is this tiercel if its parents are:

father: pere x (pere/barb) mother: (pere/barb x pere x pere) x pere

It took me hours to work out, i came up with 5/32ths barbary ????? so its still a hybrid, if i was to put it into a pure pere was percentage barbary would the offspring be ??? I sent this puzzle to defra because i want to know if the young would be classed as pure. So far they have not replied ???


steve









Balls, didnt even confuse anyone :x :rolleyes: :lol:

[Harris]

check this one out:

what percentage barbary is this tiercel if its parents are:

father: pere x (pere/barb) mother: (pere/barb x pere x pere) x pere

It took me hours to work out, i came up with 5/32ths barbary ????? so its still a hybrid, if i was to put it into a pure pere was percentage barbary would the offspring be ??? I sent this puzzle to defra because i want to know if the young would be classed as pure. So far they have not replied ???


steve

I think Even Carol Vordaman would struggle with that one!! :lol:

[Tim Laycock]

check this one out:

what percentage barbary is this tiercel if its parents are:

father: pere x (pere/barb) mother: (pere/barb x pere x pere) x pere

It took me hours to work out, i came up with 5/32ths barbary ????? so its still a hybrid, if i was to put it into a pure pere was percentage barbary would the offspring be ??? I sent this puzzle to defra because i want to know if the young would be classed as pure. So far they have not replied ???


steve

Now thats what Im talking about :supz:

[Falcon911]

Depends who is selling it:roll: :lol:

Beat me to it....!!!!

[DeadDogs]

check this one out:

what percentage barbary is this tiercel if its parents are:

father: pere x (pere/barb) mother: (pere/barb x pere x pere) x pere

It took me hours to work out, i came up with 5/32ths barbary ????? so its still a hybrid, if i was to put it into a pure pere was percentage barbary would the offspring be ??? I sent this puzzle to defra because i want to know if the young would be classed as pure. So far they have not replied ???


steve

Steve bet DEFRA really like to hear from you with these little questions...gives them something to do though.

[Harris]

check this one out:

what percentage barbary is this tiercel if its parents are:

father: pere x (pere/barb) mother: (pere/barb x pere x pere) x pere

It took me hours to work out, i came up with 5/32ths barbary ????? so its still a hybrid, if i was to put it into a pure pere was percentage barbary would the offspring be ??? I sent this puzzle to defra because i want to know if the young would be classed as pure. So far they have not replied ???


steve


I worked this out differently : -

Father

P x P
P x B

=PPPB

So Father is 1/4 Barbary

Mother

P x B
P x P
=PPPB x PP
=PPPPPB xPP
=pppppppB

So mother is 1/8 Barbary

Tiercel therefore is 1/4 + 1/8 Barabry = 3/8 Barbary.

Next generation between these perants would be

Father
PPPB

Mother
PPPPPPPB

=PPPPPPPPPPBB

= 2/10 or 1/5 Barbary

Is That Right :confused:

[OutFlying]

I worked this out differently : -

Father

P x P
P x B

=PPPB

So Father is 1/4 Barbary

Mother

P x B
P x P
=PPPB x PP
=PPPPPB xPP
=pppppppB

So mother is 1/8 Barbary

Tiercel therefore is 1/4 + 1/8 Barabry = 3/8 Barbary.

Next generation between these perants would be

Father
PPPB

Mother
PPPPPPPB

=PPPPPPPPPPBB

= 2/10 or 1/5 Barbary

Is That Right :confused:

wrong wrong wrong :lol:

You need to times the percentages not add :wink:

[Kentish Falconry]

check this one out:

what percentage barbary is this tiercel if its parents are:

father: pere x (pere/barb) mother: (pere/barb x pere x pere) x pere

It took me hours to work out, i came up with 5/32ths barbary ????? so its still a hybrid, if i was to put it into a pure pere was percentage barbary would the offspring be ??? I sent this puzzle to defra because i want to know if the young would be classed as pure. So far they have not replied ???


steve

Steve..............Father is 1/4 Mother is 1/16 Barbary making the resulting Chick 5/16ths Barbary 11/16ths Peregrine. So mated back to Pure Pere the offspring from this chick would be 5/32 barbary. DEFRA as I understnd it consider that a Pere x Barbary at 1/8 produces a pure specimin when bred back to Peregrine, so 1/16 would be classed as pure
Hope this helps
Terry

[StoopDoggyDogg]

Cheers! i was never any good at fractions at school.

Steve



Steve..............Father is 1/4 Mother is 1/16 Barbary making the resulting Chick 5/16ths Barbary 11/16ths Peregrine. So mated back to Pure Pere the offspring from this chick would be 5/32 barbary. DEFRA as I understnd it consider that a Pere x Barbary at 1/8 produces a pure specimin when bred back to Peregrine, so 1/16 would be classed as pure
Hope this helps
Terry

[Talon]

thought i would put this up worth a look at.

http://www.sky-brids.com/hybrid%20genetics.htm

[MitchellBrad]

7/8 Gyr x Sakers should not be put down as Pure by DEFRA.
My 7/8 Gyr x Sakers say just that on their Article 10's and the 15/16ths will say that as well.
Some breeders will argue the point with DEFRA and have them put down as Pure, saying the Saker has been bred out of them, this is not correct. I will not do this and my applications will always be for the % hybrid in the bird but I cannot speak for other breeders if DEFRA put ours down as Pure then the Specimin Certificate we issue from our own records will still show it as a Hybrid, why pull the wool over a customers eyes even if the chances of them finding out is almost zero it is not fair on the customer and it is not good for the Breeders reputation if it should come out at a later date.
So don't think all breeders are in it just for the money
Terry

Excellent post Terry!!! I was once given a 7/8 prairie 1/8 shaheen. Didn't look like any prairie I've seen. Flew good, and caught a lot of ducks but still it was a hybrid. I once asked Frank Bond, NAFA's legal council, about peales/anatums because a falconer was selling 7/8 anatums as pure. His comment they were still crossbreds. Some livestock associations accept 7/8 as pure and allow registry but falcon breeders shouldn't. Pure is pure even if it is broken down to 1/32nd or further. In the wild some of these stocks do in fact interbreed. Let them, it's their problem but not in captivity.

Brad

[Kirowan]

so if your cross is 7/8 when you go back to a pure its classed as a pure falcon again.but what of the outcross in some species ie a 15/16 gyr x saker classed as a pure gyr is fully fertile but what if its 15/16 gyrxpere or perexpraire etc.there outcrossed ie hyro falcon into ryncodon.will you have 100% fertility?

[Dan Paradis]

gyrs = gyr falcon

saker=saker falcon

gyr x saker= is a hybred a cross breed between the above mentioned birds

hope that helps.

Ok, wich one comes first:

A GyrXSaker is from female Gyr egg or female Saker egg

A Saker X Gyr is from a Gyr egg or Saker egg

Dan :D

[Goldie]

Ok, wich one comes first:

A GyrXSaker is from female Gyr egg or female Saker egg

A Saker X Gyr is from a Gyr egg or Saker egg

Dan :D

Dan, my understanding is that the semen donor or father is always named first.

Jim

[Goldie]

Should also mention as i am sure you are aware:wink: that no one in their right mind is likely to put Saker semen into their female Gyr

[Kentish Falconry]

7/8 GyrXSakers are shown on A10s as Gyrs :rolleyes:

7/8ths are not shown as pure bred Gyr's unless the breeders requests this.
In my book they never become pure as a throw back will always emerge all my hybrids are shown on my AIMS program as what they are and all paperwork for registration is produced by this program. So if I tell you a bird is pure then it is pure if it is not pure then the papers will show it as a hybrid and the % of Saker.
All of our Gyr's that formed our foundation stock are 100% Gyr and were imported from the USA or have come from imported stock that we know to be of pure lines
Terry

[StormRider]

Terry how does the AIMS programme work mate? Is this something that is only used for breeding purposes or will it cover other uses as well?

STU

[RedNoseK9]

I personally would not ever consider a bird that came from hybrid decendence to become pure as even if you have a 15/16 gyrx saker whos to say that it will actually have 15/16 of a gyr who is to say the gene pull of the saker has become more dominant.

I also do not consider 50/50 hybrids to be 50/50 they are mix birds and the quantity in the mix is nothing other than a guess

Wez

[Kesser]

a hydrid of anything will never be pure ever again evolution takes over

[Dan Paradis]

Should also mention as i am sure you are aware:wink: that no one in their right mind is likely to put Saker semen into their female Gyr

I don't know sh*t about hybrids Goldie...and why not put saker semen in a female gyr would'nt it be a bigger bird than a gyrxsaker

I breed pure birds only

Dan

[RedNoseK9]

Dan i think the reason u dont put saker seamen into a gyr is because u put gyr semen into a gyr whic is why most gyr hybrids are from gyrkins.

A female Gyr can lay a clutch of pure gyrs or a clutch of hybrids just makes more sense

[Dan Paradis]

Dan i think the reason u dont put saker seamen into a gyr is because u put gyr semen into a gyr whic is why most gyr hybrids are from gyrkins.

A female Gyr can lay a clutch of pure gyrs or a clutch of hybrids just makes more sense

Sound RNK9 !

A grey Gyr, today... for what it is worth in $,, I think it is worth selling for cheaper a SakerxgreyGyr for example and sell more birds than selling no pure grey Gyrs at all as it is too expansive for the average falconer anyway

No ?

I'm on my way to breed white GyrSakerXgreyGyr,,,and white GyrSakerXperegrine but I was also considering the other option that is why I ask

Dan

[CanadaManada]

Dan,
I have noticed that the hybrid mixes most commonly put the male of the more expensive species (but cheap by way of being male) into the cheaper female. This means guys buy the males of breeds like Gyrs and Peres for relatively good prices and then put the semen into Sakers and Praries or the like.
Which leads me to wonder, and I've been told this is the case, if they put Peregrine semen into the female Gyr, wouldn't they get a totally different looking bird with different behaviours? And if so, why are none of these obviously more expensive hybrids more suitable thand say a Pere/Saker or Gyr/Saker etc? Not many Saker/Peregrines around.
Could one of these rarer hybrids be the next "It" bird?

Justin

[Dan Paradis]

Dan,
I have noticed that the hybrid mixes most commonly put the male of the more expensive species (but cheap by way of being male) into the cheaper female. This means guys buy the males of breeds like Gyrs and Peres for relatively good prices and then put the semen into Sakers and Praries or the like.
Which leads me to wonder, and I've been told this is the case, if they put Peregrine semen into the female Gyr, wouldn't they get a totally different looking bird with different behaviours? And if so, why are none of these obviously more expensive hybrids more suitable thand say a Pere/Saker or Gyr/Saker etc? Not many Saker/Peregrines around.
Could one of these rarer hybrids be the next "It" bird?

Justin

Holy Beef-a-Ronie Justin !(sp)

Lets breed what is not bred over the world Justin :idea: Lets start a new breed of hybrids made in eastern CANADA only :lol:

Dan

[CanadaManada]

Holy Beef-a-Ronie Justin !(sp)

Lets breed what is not bred over the world Justin :idea: Lets start a new breed of hybrids made in eastern CANADA only :lol:

Dan

Pitch me a tent in your backyard and tell Wendy to introduce some of her horny friends. I'm in for the long haul!
PS: Take care of Bill, Dan. Teach him well.

Justin

[Graham Irving]

check this one out:

what percentage barbary is this tiercel if its parents are:

father: pere x (pere/barb) mother: (pere/barb x pere x pere) x pere

It took me hours to work out, i came up with 5/32ths barbary ????? so its still a hybrid, if i was to put it into a pure pere was percentage barbary would the offspring be ??? I sent this puzzle to defra because i want to know if the young would be classed as pure. So far they have not replied ???


steve

Steve, Dr Matt Gage from the BFC asked DEFRA when his 75/25 peregrinus/barbary would be pure peregrinus if he kept putting peregrinus into the female, DEFRA refered this question to JNCC, DEFRA's advisors on this sort of thing and they replied it would be peregrinus at F4 ...........
Does that make sense?

Graham:rolleyes:

[Goldie]

I don't know sh*t about hybrids Goldie...and why not put saker semen in a female gyr would'nt it be a bigger bird than a gyrxsaker

I breed pure birds only

Dan

Dan, i am going to stick my neck out here and suggest it is mainly a financial issue. Now don't quote me on actual £ or $ but here in the UK lets assume ball park figures of......... F.Gyr £5000 M.Gyr £2000 and Sakers being £500/£250.

If you inseminate a Gyr with Saker you obviously get a 50/50 which in turn will seriously reduce the value of the offspring. I have never seen a Saker/Gyr advertised as it is generally Gyr/Sakers and they sell for Females £1000 Males £500 and can be picked up for a good bit less dependent on breeder and quality.
I know there will always be a market for both pure and hybrids but to my mind, if i had a £5000 Gyr, i would be loathe to put £250 male Saker into her. I would rather produce pure and reduce the price if need be, if i was having trouble moving them BUT.......................

I also believe that if someone doesn't have a market for the offspring then they shouldn't be breeding them.
I may well be wrong on this Dan, but i do think this is the main reason for not putting Saker to Gyr.

Jim

[StormRider]

I personally would not ever consider a bird that came from hybrid decendence to become pure as even if you have a 15/16 gyrx saker whos to say that it will actually have 15/16 of a gyr who is to say the gene pull of the saker has become more dominant.

I also do not consider 50/50 hybrids to be 50/50 they are mix birds and the quantity in the mix is nothing other than a guess

Wez

Agree whole heartedly.

Once two species are mixed I cannot see why the BFC or Defra would even consider looking to justify aroute back to purity for the sake of paperwork. Doesnt make sense.

STU

[Graham Irving]

Agree whole heartedly.

Once two species are mixed I cannot see why the BFC or Defra would even consider looking to justify aroute back to purity for the sake of paperwork. Doesnt make sense.

STU

The BFC had nothing to do with this, I just mentioned that he was a member.
He is a specialist in genetics, hence the reason why he was asking the questions.

Graham

[StoopDoggyDogg]

Thanks Graham
That was an old post (november 2006), likewise the thread is old.

A bird becomes pure under cities regs at 15/16ths.

i'd be surprised if Matt Gage' pere x barbary is a 75/25 cross, most people look at the registration document and conclude there birds percentage parentage, but the registration document only gives a rough idea.

For example a lot of birds registered as " peregrine x barbary " are only an 1/8th barbary and us falconers assume the bird would be 50/50. The registation documents are not intended to provide accurate information of the make up of the birds.

Get me his ring number and i'll have a look for him, if he is interested.

Cheers Steve




Steve, Dr Matt Gage from the BFC asked DEFRA when his 75/25 peregrinus/barbary would be pure peregrinus if he kept putting peregrinus into the female, DEFRA refered this question to JNCC, DEFRA's advisors on this sort of thing and they replied it would be peregrinus at F4 ...........
Does that make sense?

Graham:rolleyes: