Ruined GyrxSaker

[Lee Brindley]

There is a chance that I may accuire a 3/4gGyrxSaker. Its a male of this year, and has been cocked up by its present owner. I dont want to slag him off too much, just incase he sees this thread (I dont think hes a member.)

Hes been kept on the ceance for far too long, hitting the lure in a straight line. Now when he is given a pass, he simpley lands at youre feet. Matters are not helped by a number of broken feathers (tail and primary.) I believe that these were caused by rough handling.

He is very steady on the fist, but when he lands on the floor after an atempted pass, he is very spooky. This has led to a few telemetry hunts on his free flights (the bird is on and off the creance permanently.) Could this spookiness be caused by rough handling?

The reason for the thread is that although I have flown a few longwings, mainly for demo, my experience is more with hawks, buzzards, eagles etc. I would appreciate if any longwing boys could give their oppinion on whether this would ever make a hunting bird, and if so, the best way to go about it. I hate flying birds that are not untouched, but Im thinking more about the sake of the bird. Plus, I may be able to get it for the price of a favour.

Many thanx to anybody who offers their expertise.

Lee

[Dean]

Lee, leave it be mate,you wont have a good experience with it unless you are willing to give it 120%! If you feel you must take it,put it away until moulted next season,give yourself a blanker canvas with perfect feathers!

[ChrisRobbo]

Lee, leave it be mate,you wont have a good experience with it unless you are willing to give it 120%! If you feel you must take it,put it away until moulted next season,give yourself a blanker canvas with perfect feathers!

Good advice

Too add, it really comes down to what you put in and what you'll get out off it all. It can be done but will be hard work.


ATB Chris

[Lee Brindley]

Lee, leave it be mate,you wont have a good experience with it unless you are willing to give it 120%! If you feel you must take it,put it away until moulted next season,give yourself a blanker canvas with perfect feathers!

I was thinking that moulting it may be the best option, although I have heard that long wings are very difficult to enter if not done in the first season. Do you reckon it would benefit from a kill or two before the moult.(not that I would use baggies of course:oops: ) Even if I do not take the bird on, I want to do what i can for its sake.

[JB29]

I'd go along with the moulting. I don't think there is really any need to get the bird entered now. I've worked with a couple of falcons that were display birds, poor fliers of a good few years of age and the Saker has become a great hunting bird working at a quite reasonable pitch. I would advise, certainly to begin with, only flying the falcon in as near perfect conditions as possible so that it gets plenty of lift and boosts its confidence. I train my falcons off a steep slope with plenty of updraft. It works for my Harris too, she can put some falcons to shame.

[Lee Brindley]

What about the spookiness mentioned? Do you think this could be caused by rough handling as I suspect? The bird has had a lot of manning, but has been ragged about a bit. If this is the case, I reckon It could be ironed out with lots of gentle handling/manning. Whats youre oppinions? Please forgive all the questions, but I've never had to rework a longwing.

[Dean]

No mate, i really doubt moulting will do any harm if you are going to fly from the hood next season,may give the gyr time to grow up! Feed your intended through her hatch!

[Tim Laycock]

Is this a bird of the year?

If it is you need to find a way of getting some air through its lungs before it goes down to moult otherwise it will be fit for nothing.

[Lee Brindley]

Oh, and the other question. LOL. Do you reckon that after a moult, and as blank a canvas as possible, do you think he would do a pass, rather than just land. Im worried that he could be in this habbit for good. After doing straight lines on the creance for so long, he just expects the lure to drop on the ground.

Thanx for the help so far:supz:

[Lee Brindley]

Is this a bird of the year?

If it is you need to find a way of getting some air through its lungs before it goes down to moult otherwise it will be fit for nothing.

This is a bird of the year, Tim. Its had plenty of air through its lungs when I assisted on two long telemetry hunts around Cheshire. LOL. (I know, Im a mug!) Wot will happen if its not flown? Forgive my ignorance:oops:

[Tim Laycock]

This is a bird of the year, Tim. Its had plenty of air through its lungs when I assisted on two long telemetry hunts around Cheshire. LOL. (I know, Im a mug!) Wot will happen if its not flown? Forgive my ignorance:oops:

If the air sacks are not expanded in the first season falcons rarely amount to much other than "grass cutters" :(

[Lee Brindley]

If the air sacks are not expanded in the first season falcons rarely amount to much other than "grass cutters" :(

How much flying are we talking about? Do you think his straight line flights and jollies while going AWOL would be enough?

Thanx for youre help.

[Tim Laycock]

A crude yard stick but you need to see it panting its ******** of quite a few times.

I think your options are restricted to either a couple of weeks of high jumps followed by a long moult/break

Or two sessions a day of "Long luring" up an incline followed by the same long moult.

[MattSpar]

This is a bird of the year, Tim. Its had plenty of air through its lungs when I assisted on two long telemetry hunts around Cheshire. LOL. (I know, Im a mug!) Wot will happen if its not flown? Forgive my ignorance:oops:

A bird not flown in its first season is a bit like a man who doesn't take up long distance running till he's thirty. He may get to be alright at it, but there will be a ceiling of performance above which he simply will never be able to rise, no matter how hard he trains.

The same man, had he begun training in his teens and attained a high standard, will often be capable of making a successful comeback, even after a lapse of some years, as anyone on here who's old enough to remember Reg Harris, the cyclist, will know.

[19col]

They are not easy going birds to start with, mine is a real **** most days, they need a lot of attention and stimulation.you will have to get inside its head to find out what the problems are, they are bad tempered with a short fuse and if they dont get what they want it shows in many different ways, broken feathers is down to him baiting , this might sound a bit daft but the gyr is very parrot like in its manerisms and is much happier when ther is things to see , if you can get him for a favour get him home feed him up and let every one spend as much time as they can with him, you can moult him out if you want ,i would just go back to basics start again once you have got him manned and happy that is..

[Kentish Falconry]

Your answer if you can find someone willing to do it is put the bird in a hack pen for a month or so that way the bird can fly freely learn to turn properly and gain some fitness into the bargain. Then put it in a chamber to moult out properly.
As Dean said next season start with an almost clean slate.
Terry

[Dean]

The birds insecurity could be caused by several factors,rough inexperienced handling,too much handling,not enough handling,natural disposition etc etc.... Either way mate put it to moult in a large secluded aviary or leave well alone!

[DeadDogs]

A bird not flown in its first season is a bit like a man who doesn't take up long distance running till he's thirty. He may get to be alright at it, but there will be a ceiling of performance above which he simply will never be able to rise, no matter how hard he trains.

The same man, had he begun training in his teens and attained a high standard, will often be capable of making a successful comeback, even after a lapse of some years, as anyone on here who's old enough to remember Reg Harris, the cyclist, will know.

Reg Harris or Rolf Harris ?

[Mark Collins]

Hi sparviter, i had a similar bird about 3 seasons ago , tatty , and , unfit , i retrained it and kited it for weeks , then flew it on a landfill site,it was hard work but it paid of ,he turned into a super flyer, very strong flyer , i swapped him for a proven gyr,prairie , for breeding , he went into a pen with a 50/50, gyr,saker and he fathered about 6 chicks in his 3rd year, i still wish i had him , i am sure he would have long turn been a exceptional gull hawk, anyway , hard work , all depends how much time you have , kiting can help a bird , its such a good workout , and mentaly its benificial , it gives them a bit of independance , and if done for long periods it can really iron out problem birds , mark.

[PitBullOne]

o6 male feather perfect well manned ready to start three quarter gyr /saker there is a blank canvas if you want it m8 ,very nice bird

[ChrisRobbo]

Just to address getting the bird to do a pass can be fixed the only reason it will land at your feet is if it is rewarded for doing so (like a dog). But remeber positive small steps each day will work don't expect a miracle cure. Using the wind direction to make him pass you will help, if he just sits there wait until he looses interest in you and takes to the air then serve him (can take time). But as long as he gets the message without making an exit stage left a good lesson will be learned.

What would be your direction for this hawk?

If you were dead serious about this bird assess its health if its healthy but tatty it may not fly aswell but the foundations can be laid, four weeks of flying to the lure twice a day will open it up niceley for early next year. then get it down to moult then your laughing.

The problem with gyr/sakers is their a hybrid so can vary GREATLY, my lad is restless untill he has a full crop in him and been flown. After that he's fine.

ATB Chris

[MitchellBrad]

There is a chance that I may accuire a 3/4gGyrxSaker. Its a male of this year, and has been cocked up by its present owner. I dont want to slag him off too much, just incase he sees this thread (I dont think hes a member.)

Hes been kept on the ceance for far too long, hitting the lure in a straight line. Now when he is given a pass, he simpley lands at youre feet. Matters are not helped by a number of broken feathers (tail and primary.) I believe that these were caused by rough handling.

He is very steady on the fist, but when he lands on the floor after an atempted pass, he is very spooky. This has led to a few telemetry hunts on his free flights (the bird is on and off the creance permanently.) Could this spookiness be caused by rough handling?

The reason for the thread is that although I have flown a few longwings, mainly for demo, my experience is more with hawks, buzzards, eagles etc. I would appreciate if any longwing boys could give their oppinion on whether this would ever make a hunting bird, and if so, the best way to go about it. I hate flying birds that are not untouched, but Im thinking more about the sake of the bird. Plus, I may be able to get it for the price of a favour.

Many thanx to anybody who offers their expertise.

Lee

Friend, no bird is ruined provided you have the time to spend with it. All you have to do is turn the bird around. There are a lot of people who will offer all sorts of advise. I used to pride myself on taking other falconers disasters and ended up with some pretty nice birds. Sure they had the vice or two but a reasonable falconer can work around it/them. You take a disaster, find out what it's phobias are and work around them. The first hybrid hand me down I had would sit on my VW and scream with squinty eyes. I was pretty proud of him the day he caught his first snipe and elated the day he caught a mourning dove.

Brad who believes there is always a light at the end of the tunnel

[Turumti]

I agree with Brad 100%. My best gos is a bird that I rescued from a chicken coop seven years ago. She had been kept in it for over two months, and her primaries and tail feathers were all broken. I imped her with feathers from other birds (kites, lapwings etc) and got her going at game. The next season she moulted out fine. I have had this bird for seven years now, and she is a serial partridge killer. By my own reckoning, she has taken over a thousand partridge, a hundred hare and over two thousand herons, egrets and crow-pheasants combined.

There are very few bad birds, only bad falconers. And given enough time, skill and attention, any bird can be cured of its vices.

[MitchellBrad]

The advise you've gotten has been good. My own experiences lead me to believe a bird should/has to be flown it's first season. During the moult it often is like they've sat around all summer long and thought about their sins. The next year many start off being a better bird than you expected. There are some things you'll never be able to fix but you can lessen their impact upon you and the bird. I've seen birds get goofy on the ground. Personally I'd teach the bird to come to the fist so when he does land on the ground and looks as if he's ready to bolt you've exchanged one behavior for another. Instead of being fearful he's expecting the fist. All of us here, I mean locally, don't even bother to garnish the lure. Swing lure, bird comes, stick fist out and the bird hops to it. I haven't garnished the lure for the intermewed passage gyr since the first week she was going loose. Little things like this can make life one heck of a lot easier.

Again, no bird is ruined unless it has a physical problem that can't be fixed. Those birds that do have what we consider problems might often be passed on to someone who likes or is willing to cure them. The bird may simply be too much of a headache to deal with if your not prepared to . It's something to consider but if you love a challange then you may have the right bird.

Turumti,

"serial partridge killer" I think that's a great statement! Good for you and your gos.

[SakerYZF]

I've seen this landing when u pull the lure out of the way with a fair few Gyr/sakers.
And the solution was a fairly simple one , using a pole lure, i'd start dragging the lure ( slowly at first) along the ground with the falcon coming into it. Once they got the idea i'd move to jogging , then running then legging it down the field with someone releasing the bird.
Really getting them keen to chase and tackle the lure.
The next stage was holding it ever so slightly off the ground and doing the same , again in stages.
The moving onto running full pelt across the field with the lure held real high up, and as the birds coming in fast whip it out of the way.. with all that momentum the falcon can't "just land " and it instictivley looks behind itself for that lure , i simply drop start running in the other direction., never had it fail yet. Just keep incresing the passes day by day as you would any falcon.
I'd also take up the advice about the Kite , its a great way of getting fittness, teaching about height etc.
Imp the bird , fly it, do the best with it you can this season and resume with another set of fresh feathers next.

Best wishes

Chris.

[Dean]

Mismanagement can cause mental problems as well as physical,dont be fooled!

[B C]

Agree 100% with the advice given about letting the bird moult out fully. But I also think that if the birds handled and hooded on a daily basis throughout the winter and into the moult, your chances of improving him will also increase.
It's often the case with hybrids and other first year falcons, that feather quality improves drastically after a good moult. Make sure that the birds diet is good and also occasionally use cod liver oil and a good supplement. You can encourage the bird to high jump, I know most use this method for hawks - but I regularly high jump my falcons - it keeps them surprisingly fit and you can have them breathing hard in a relatively short space of time.
If you continue with him as he is, he will continue to fly in a straight line.
Stop flying him!
After the enforced break (make sure you still keep him used to the lure), you can encourage him to catch the lure by ensuring that he's keen and with good timing, throw the lure upwards when he's nearly in front of you - he will soon learn to chase it that way. I've used this method with birds that are still on a creance - but you need to be careful of tangles and get them off the line as soon as possible. The birds confidence may have been battered - but with patience, he has a chance!

Good luck
B C

[Jack]

First off, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the bird. So it is not trained, big deal. Train her yourself to the degree you want. I would not worry about flying her to the lure in the beginning. Get her flying first, then start playing with the lure.
The spookiness is purely a weight issue. Too fat. Cut the weight and that goes away, as well as she will be more serious about the lure. The telemetry chase tells me she is being flown too fat as well.
All the birds I have had for a while now are hand me downs. Until I was given a little downy goshawk, and I have had to train them all. The owner was willing to give them away because they felt the bird was no good any more. I can get just about any kind of hawk I want if I am just a little patient. The thing you have to know is that 95% of all falconry is weight management. Everything else will fall within the last 5%. Almost all of the problems you will see in a hawk or falcon will be a weight related issue and can be solved or cured by weight manipulation. If you can believe that, you can work with any hawk or falcon and make an outstanding game hawk of it. The problem is, not many people know this and even fewer will except it as gospel.
If you can find game for her, and if you can justify the price, get her and cut that weight on down until she will work with you honestly.

Jack

[Sprout]

What Jack has written may in part be true but VERY dangerous. How can anyone tell someone to cut a bird down until it responds as it is "too fat" unless he has seen the bird, watched its response and most importantly felt it up!! Telling someone to cut a bird down without seeing it is in my opinion the most dangerous thing you could post!!! He may very well be right but please don;t give this sort of advice without assessing the brid for yourself, don;t forget, some of the problems related to being over weight can manifest also if the bird is under weight!!!! ???maybe the bird is landing because it is too thin and not have the energy to continue????

[Pogger]

O.K. I’m going to try and give this a go and give you my take on this, if this comes out all wrong and you don’t understand it or it doesn’t make sense I apologise now. Feel free to disregard this but I will say it’s worked for me a few times when I’ve “retrained” falcons.

The reason the bird is landing on the floor is he doesn’t understand what you’re trying to say with the lure. To begin with I expect the bird was put on a perch, the lure was dropped on the floor a few yards away, bird hops - flaps to the lure and gets the reward. Next you got the bird to do the same thing, just a little bit further. Then all of a sudden as the bird comes in the lure is wiped away. For some birds this can be a bit much of a jump. This can be over come by letting the falcon catch the lure in the air. When you call her off simply swing the lure up gently into her feet and hey presto she’s got it. Just a few more times of this for a good crop full and now she’s really thinking about snatching it off you. The next time you call her off and try a pass she will be far more likely to slam the brakes on once she’s past you to give it another go because she thinks she’s missed it herself. She really needs to be thinking that the lure is hers and it’s worth her while to try to catch it. If she point blank refuses to catch the lure in the air just hold the lure stationary a couple of feet off the ground in front of her and let her jump up and grab it then gently drop her to the ground. It may seem a little silly but as far as she’s concerned she caught it in the air.

As for nervious on the floor this can be overcome with lots of tip bitting while she’s feeding on the lure. If she wont let you make in while she is feeding then use a leather lure pad with a medium sized reward on it. As soon as she is finished let her have a quick look around and then offer her the rest of her ration on the fist. Now she’ll begin to see the point of you hanging around while she’s feeing. If she appears to have no interest in the fist go back to basics and get her to hop up for tip bits at home in the mews.

Does this bird have a chance of hunting, I would say yes and it’s going to be down to fitness, motivation and very easy slips to start with.

If you take this bird on I wish you the best of British luck with him. :)

[MitchellBrad]

Pogger wrote:

"O.K. I’m going to try and give this a go and give you my take on this, if this comes out all wrong and you don’t understand it or it doesn’t make sense I apologise now. Feel free to disregard this but I will say it’s worked for me a few times when I’ve “retrained” falcons."

I write stuff like the above. Gives the opposition a way out.

Ya know, we sit at these computers and offer all sorts of advise, myself included. There isn't anything wrong with all of us trying to help someone with a problem. Some advise is good and some isn't but it all depends on the situation we are in and how we understood the request for help. Training birds is a **** shoot. We have to try this and that with the occasional success and a lot of failures. In turn we try to pass on what we've learned so others might not have the same problems or at least know what has worked for us. Much like the above. "Worked for me a few times...." is a great statement and worthy of one of those green thingies.

As a final thought, the above quote is my disclaimer. Has anyone been out with this bird and seen what is actually going on? Often another opinion after seeing the patient is all that is necessary to correct a fault. My gyr hasn't flown very well since she spent the night out on Saturday. She appears plenty healthy, she's acting frustrated. A friend of mine said, "cut her back" But I'm going to raise her weight. The urgency and frustration often go away when the bird is a little more relaxed about what we are doing. Even yesterday she started to fly OK then chased a pheasant off in the distance. Instead of remounting, something she doesn't always do, she went and sat. Frustrated!!! She came when I called after sitting longer than usual and got real ****** with me so up goes the weight.

Brad

[James_Falconry1]

What about condition and whats in its head. The first thing i was taught was condition and weight need controlling together. it can be high in condition bt the same weight, soo weight has nowhere near 95% to do with a hawk. Also u have to get in the head of the bird and work out why its not doing what you want. Not weight weight weight.

MO Jimmy



First off, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the bird. So it is not trained, big deal. Train her yourself to the degree you want. I would not worry about flying her to the lure in the beginning. Get her flying first, then start playing with the lure.
The spookiness is purely a weight issue. Too fat. Cut the weight and that goes away, as well as she will be more serious about the lure. The telemetry chase tells me she is being flown too fat as well.
All the birds I have had for a while now are hand me downs. Until I was given a little downy goshawk, and I have had to train them all. The owner was willing to give them away because they felt the bird was no good any more. I can get just about any kind of hawk I want if I am just a little patient. The thing you have to know is that 95% of all falconry is weight management. Everything else will fall within the last 5%. Almost all of the problems you will see in a hawk or falcon will be a weight related issue and can be solved or cured by weight manipulation. If you can believe that, you can work with any hawk or falcon and make an outstanding game hawk of it. The problem is, not many people know this and even fewer will except it as gospel.
If you can find game for her, and if you can justify the price, get her and cut that weight on down until she will work with you honestly.

Jack

[Sprout]

Not qualified to argue with you here as don;t know Jack, he may know his stuff and be top of his game, however, what he has posted is DANGEROUS. Telling someone to cut a birds weight down without seeing it/feeling it is dangerous information - how does he know how much skill the current owner has/their ability to pinch a bird up correctly?????? He could be right, but then again he could be telling someone to cut a bird down who is already too low in condition????

[Puzo]

Seems to be an accepted cure for a multitude of ills in some quarters "cut it's weight down" "If all else fails starve the poor ****** into submision".

[Jack]

I understand what it means. But if you do not agree, then you must at least know what to do in his case. I have been told this before. Many times at that. But in the end, it all comes to pass that what I have just stated will be the absolute truth. It has always worked for me, and anyone else that was willing to except the facts. Truth is, not many know the truth, as I can plainly see here. But if he will just apply what I have said, he will be just fine.

Jack

[As The Falcon Her Bells]

Dont mind anyone critisising peoples advice as long as it is constructive critesism, anything else can be done on PM please. Deleted and edited posts, please keep on topic.

[Jack]

Let me just go back a little. I did not just come to the conclusion that the bird was over weight simply because it does not do what is wanted of it. I looked at all the entire post and read what was stated and put it all together in my mind. If a falcon is involved in a telemetry chase, I have to assume first that it is not too weak or under weight. In my experience, a falcon too weak will not fly much at all. So this in itself tells me that the falcon is over weight. And since it has not been worked with much, it must not really know what to do. The only real motivation we can give them is hunger. Now, hunger does just one thing. It motivates the falcon to perform a particular behavior in order to obtain food. A falcons weight determines it's over all attitude. It is often said, a fat hawk gets just as hungry as a skinny hawk, but the reaction to that hunger is what will seperate them. A falcon that is a bit salty and ill tempered can quickly be tamed by dropping the weight some. If the falcon will not stick around, it requires a weight reduction. I know that it is not the answer to all ills, but it will work to cure most of them. To train any behavior in a falcon or hawk you first have to get it's attention. What better way than manipulation of it's weight. You can make an over weight hawk hungry simply by not feeding it. This will not always make it do what you want. I am sure many of you have seen the truth of this when your hawk simply watches game run away because it is slightly over weight. I have many times. And the hawk most certainly must have been hungry. It just reacted differently to that hunger than it would had the weight been lower.
The reality is, you just have to know these things, but you also have to have enough common sense to use it in a way as not to kill a bird. You do not simply start bringing a hawks weight down until it dies. It will respond to your needs well before that happens. It simply will not let you starve it to death. Besides, we are not talking about a killing lose of weight here. It would take some serious starving to do that to a healthy hawk. Just simply missing a meal or losing a bit of weight will not kill a hawk. They are way tougher than that.
If you take a very long look at your hawk, you will see that their little world revolves in a very tight little circle around their stomach. Everything it does is in it's effort to eat. That is just about all it ever thinks of. And this is the only tool you have to use in dealing with it. Use it. It can be used in so many different ways. I know it must be a very difficult concept to grasp, mostly because it is seldom ever mentioned in books or other literature. Not in the complete context. And because so many people continue to experience extreme difficulty in dropping a birds weight, I have to believe it is a common problem.
If I can make reference of my own birds here, I have not trapped and trained a passage hawk now since 1992. All the birds I have had since then were captive breds that were both imprinted and chamber raised by the parents. These birds were given to me because the falconer could not handle them. They would always give me the absolute rock bottom weight to work with so that I would be certain not to kill the birds. My thought were that if that did not work for them, it most likely is not going to work for me either. I began by working the weight down until I got a positive response from the bird. In most cases I didn't have to bring the bird dangerously low. Just a little weight and we were there. What was a very difficult bird suddenly becomes a well mannered bird. Carrying, screaming, mantling, aggression, and lots of other little things, like telemetry chases and such, are all weight related issues. And if the behavior is brought on by mishandling, weight manipulation can work to cure it. But don't feel naked. I know men of 50 years experience in falconry that do not have the first clue as to this concept. They can not see beyond their own fears.
This may be a load of *****, but it is probably the most valuable load of ***** you will ever come upon. And it is free, so use it like it belongs to you.

Jack

[NICKYC]

big thread with lots of advice, i would just like to say that i have flown and trained a number of these 3/4 gyr/saker hybrids,and i have them to be fantastic birds,also i had one late in the year with broken tail feathers, rather than put the young bird through the stress of imping i would definitley moult it and try again next season you will have a much calmer falcon.that was my experience. in my opinion its never too late to enter a falcon they are very quick learners and prefer warm meat.remember any thing with gyr in it especially 3/4 are slower to mature and are very clever so the moult might do it some good.it did in my case. best of luck.

[Merger]

Let me just go back a little. I did not just come to the conclusion that the bird was over weight simply because it does not do what is wanted of it. I looked at all the entire post and read what was stated and put it all together in my mind. If a falcon is involved in a telemetry chase, I have to assume first that it is not too weak or under weight. In my experience, a falcon too weak will not fly much at all. So this in itself tells me that the falcon is over weight. And since it has not been worked with much, it must not really know what to do. The only real motivation we can give them is hunger. Now, hunger does just one thing. It motivates the falcon to perform a particular behavior in order to obtain food. A falcons weight determines it's over all attitude. It is often said, a fat hawk gets just as hungry as a skinny hawk, but the reaction to that hunger is what will seperate them. A falcon that is a bit salty and ill tempered can quickly be tamed by dropping the weight some. If the falcon will not stick around, it requires a weight reduction. I know that it is not the answer to all ills, but it will work to cure most of them. To train any behavior in a falcon or hawk you first have to get it's attention. What better way than manipulation of it's weight. You can make an over weight hawk hungry simply by not feeding it. This will not always make it do what you want. I am sure many of you have seen the truth of this when your hawk simply watches game run away because it is slightly over weight. I have many times. And the hawk most certainly must have been hungry. It just reacted differently to that hunger than it would had the weight been lower.
The reality is, you just have to know these things, but you also have to have enough common sense to use it in a way as not to kill a bird. You do not simply start bringing a hawks weight down until it dies. It will respond to your needs well before that happens. It simply will not let you starve it to death. Besides, we are not talking about a killing lose of weight here. It would take some serious starving to do that to a healthy hawk. Just simply missing a meal or losing a bit of weight will not kill a hawk. They are way tougher than that.
If you take a very long look at your hawk, you will see that their little world revolves in a very tight little circle around their stomach. Everything it does is in it's effort to eat. That is just about all it ever thinks of. And this is the only tool you have to use in dealing with it. Use it. It can be used in so many different ways. I know it must be a very difficult concept to grasp, mostly because it is seldom ever mentioned in books or other literature. Not in the complete context. And because so many people continue to experience extreme difficulty in dropping a birds weight, I have to believe it is a common problem.
If I can make reference of my own birds here, I have not trapped and trained a passage hawk now since 1992. All the birds I have had since then were captive breds that were both imprinted and chamber raised by the parents. These birds were given to me because the falconer could not handle them. They would always give me the absolute rock bottom weight to work with so that I would be certain not to kill the birds. My thought were that if that did not work for them, it most likely is not going to work for me either. I began by working the weight down until I got a positive response from the bird. In most cases I didn't have to bring the bird dangerously low. Just a little weight and we were there. What was a very difficult bird suddenly becomes a well mannered bird. Carrying, screaming, mantling, aggression, and lots of other little things, like telemetry chases and such, are all weight related issues. And if the behavior is brought on by mishandling, weight manipulation can work to cure it. But don't feel naked. I know men of 50 years experience in falconry that do not have the first clue as to this concept. They can not see beyond their own fears.
This may be a load of *****, but it is probably the most valuable load of ***** you will ever come upon. And it is free, so use it like it belongs to you.

JackJack, theres some great info there, I too would of held along the lines, of wieght control, ie telem chases, and spooking, I would assume the falconer in question, thro his posts under stands wieght, but more so in broadwings, with a completely different metabolisim! this may be his slight undoing, at the mo, a saker is a greedy monster! but a gyr may have a slower metobolic rate, this is a hybrid, of the two, poss one more than the other, personally I would take him down, and do some high jumping, for nothing more than some quick bonding!! hold that weight, then with the help of a friend, do some some long lureing, for a couple of weeks, slowly assaesing his weight, finnish of with some tight lure work to ***** confidence, and aggresion to feed, this is when you can fine tune that switched on wieght, all this alone should iron out the spookiness, as the birds switching on to another,, buisness partner!! wich to him is all you are!! there you go youve got some choices, if you cant commit to this I would leave him with your mat, but remember as jack said! you could learn so much from this experience, I know as Ive changed behaviour, in over 150 falcons, over the years, good luck...

[Puzo]

Jack there is some very good advice there. I have to admit that I'm very reluctant to reduce a birds weight below a certain level. When I start training a bird I gradually reduce a birds weight until I get the desired reaction. If the bird cuts at & overshoots the lure for instance whilst on the creance, I reduce the weight further until it ceases to do so. But I think it is important to be able to feel the keel & fat deposits beneath the wing to assess the hawks condition. It's a very fine line between reducing weight to get a desired result & reducing too far & loosing stamina. I think scales are an invaluable GUIDELINE but must be used in conjunction with an experienced assessment of the condition of the breastbone keel & a liberal pinch of common sense.
<P> The reason this bird lands on the ground at the feet of the person throwing out the lure could just as easy be that it has known nothing else than being flown on a creance to a thrown out lure so it just sits & waits for what experienced antipicipation has taught it is all it has to do to get the desired reward. All animals practice economy of effort, doing the absolut minimum it needs to obtain a meal expending no more energy than is absolutely necessary.
<P> It's virtually imposible to make an acurate diagnosis of the problems of this bird whithout acctually observing the birds performance first hand.
<P> Having saqid this there is no reason that with a lot of work & understanding this bird shouldn't turn into a serviceable hunting companion, especially if it is flown where there is an abundance of game as it will need a few easy kills to give it the confidence & self belief it needs to succeed {if it doesn't believe it will succeed it will not really try}. It is a shame that it wasn't flown in it's first season but if given enough flights & kills theres no reason it shouldn't become a more than adequate hawk. I think the very least it deserves is a chance to prove it's self. Personally I think these birds give us so much enjoyment, would it hurt us to occaisioally put something back. I would give it a couple of years to prove it's self one way or another. This is just my oppinion for what it's worth

[Dean]

Have witnessed many falcons flying check,hence having to be tracked due to being too keen,have also seen falcons pitch on the ground due to being too keen,weight reduction with both falcon and hawk is often the newbies downfall,perfect conditioning using several factors applies!

[Jack]

Have witnessed many falcons flying check,hence having to be tracked due to being too keen,have also seen falcons pitch on the ground due to being too keen,weight reduction with both falcon and hawk is often the newbies downfall,perfect conditioning using several factors applies!

The only time I have been able to really condition a bird was after it was responding to it's hunger. I have used the restrained persuits metheds and that did some good, but flying has always been my mainstay. I was given a little gyr/prairie tiercel, and he is now 3 years old. Real hard case too. In his first year he came down with bumble foot. The balance of the season was spent treating his feet. The next season he was an absolute mess. He was then passed on to another falconer that quickly called me and asked me to take him. I took him and am not working with him. I will not even attempt to describe this tiercels behavior when high. You would never in this life believe me. It is that bad. I have been flying hawks since about 1958, and passage hawks at that. I have it down to a science. I have only been working with falcons since about 1995. That is not really long. But in that time I have flown a big female Saker, a merlin/peregrine tiercel, a peregrine falcon, and now a gyr/prairie tiercel. Every one of these birds were hard cases. No one gives away a good falcon. Not to me anyway. The single factor in each and every case was that the last owners were determined to fly them too high. I have given up feeling of a bird. I think unless one has been flying a particular species for many years, he will not be able to read the keep. I have been scared out of my wits by feeling of these birds. The little hybrid tiercels had to feel like a skeleton or they were way too high. I feld of the one I now have, and the first thought that came was that this tiercel was just too low. His behavior said that he was too heavy though. I brought him up a little and he got lots worse. I eventually started dropping him down and eventually he became quite calm and gentle. I flew him and on the very first flight he almost disappeared in a clear sky. I had to go find him too. I dropped him from the 700 grams that he was supposed to be flown at all the way down to 615 grams. That is 85 grams, or right at 3 full ounces lower than his reputed flying weight. He still flies high and strong, but he sticks around better now. If you could feel of this birds body and keel you would be calling the animal cops on me. You would swear that I was starving him to death. The same thing happened with my litle perline, as with the Saker, and with the peregrine. The thing I try to get across to people is that weight is everything. It really is. Of course there are a lot of other things that have to be attended to, but from flying passage hawks that I have trapped from the wild, I have learned that you can man one of these birds until one of you die, but it will never become tame enough that you will fly it. Period. There has to be that first weight removal. How much depends on the birds condition when trapped, but in most cases you will have to do that reduction. You can start that weight drop and with a very minimum of manning be right back into the field and hunting within a couple of weeks, but the bird will not be steady and it will not be really tame. But you can do it on weight manipulation alone almost. The idea is to meet the 2 somewhere in the middle. Lots of manning and enough of a weight loss to adjust the hawks attitude. Now, captive bred hawks and falcons are no different in that respect. Only they are not so easy to read. If you are not quite there with a passage hawk, it will tell you so by bating away from you as you approach. Not so the eyass. It will tell you it is starved to death and just has to eat. Until you release it of course, and then the lie is discovered. And of course there are those alarmists that fear flying a hawk other than in a robust condition. They can scare the snot out of someone that does not know. To make a long story shorter, a hawks weight directly effects the degree of tameness it will exhibit. The tamer the hawk is, the easier it is to fly. And it's weight will also determine it's commitment toward quarry. You just have to have the faith in your observations to know when you are making ground or not.

Jack

[Dean]

I agree with you jack,anyone can make a bird more manageable by starving into submission! On the other hand,a gamehawk can often be called to fly in harsh conditions,sometimes for long periods,condition and repetition along with wedding is very adventageous here!

[pump]

i know exactly what your going through i have a 3 year old male gyr saker that must be relatied to yours? i was given him at a year old but he was tatty let him moult but new feathers broke very easily last summer he has moulted out beautifully so im now training him but i have found him hard work he has been a nightmare to tame spooky on padded lure and frightend of carcuses all i will say is to a point i agree with jack that a little weight loss has made all the differnce 3 months into training and now at a proper flying weight i feel we have terned a corner and progress is being made but i have found him lazy although for how long he has been laid up im prepared to take things slow will let you know if i ever get a rook with him

[StoopDoggyDogg]

Agreed !!!! i've had birds ignore a garnished lure from 2 feet and been convinced they are too fat only to find out they are too low and gone on shut down survival mode and consequentially lost their appetite. I got a falcon this year which was being flown at 1lb 14 and was gamehawked by her previous owner and showed now incentive whatsoever to kill even a baggie. The very same bird was 2 months later as keen as mustard upto 2lb 4oz.

Steve







What Jack has written may in part be true but VERY dangerous. How can anyone tell someone to cut a bird down until it responds as it is "too fat" unless he has seen the bird, watched its response and most importantly felt it up!! Telling someone to cut a bird down without seeing it is in my opinion the most dangerous thing you could post!!! He may very well be right but please don;t give this sort of advice without assessing the brid for yourself, don;t forget, some of the problems related to being over weight can manifest also if the bird is under weight!!!! ???maybe the bird is landing because it is too thin and not have the energy to continue????

[StoopDoggyDogg]

so jack ! am i right in reading that you have only flown 4 falcons in your life ?


Steve






The only time I have been able to really condition a bird was after it was responding to it's hunger. I have used the restrained persuits metheds and that did some good, but flying has always been my mainstay. I was given a little gyr/prairie tiercel, and he is now 3 years old. Real hard case too. In his first year he came down with bumble foot. The balance of the season was spent treating his feet. The next season he was an absolute mess. He was then passed on to another falconer that quickly called me and asked me to take him. I took him and am not working with him. I will not even attempt to describe this tiercels behavior when high. You would never in this life believe me. It is that bad. I have been flying hawks since about 1958, and passage hawks at that. I have it down to a science. I have only been working with falcons since about 1995. That is not really long. But in that time I have flown a big female Saker, a merlin/peregrine tiercel, a peregrine falcon, and now a gyr/prairie tiercel. Every one of these birds were hard cases. No one gives away a good falcon. Not to me anyway. The single factor in each and every case was that the last owners were determined to fly them too high. I have given up feeling of a bird. I think unless one has been flying a particular species for many years, he will not be able to read the keep. I have been scared out of my wits by feeling of these birds. The little hybrid tiercels had to feel like a skeleton or they were way too high. I feld of the one I now have, and the first thought that came was that this tiercel was just too low. His behavior said that he was too heavy though. I brought him up a little and he got lots worse. I eventually started dropping him down and eventually he became quite calm and gentle. I flew him and on the very first flight he almost disappeared in a clear sky. I had to go find him too. I dropped him from the 700 grams that he was supposed to be flown at all the way down to 615 grams. That is 85 grams, or right at 3 full ounces lower than his reputed flying weight. He still flies high and strong, but he sticks around better now. If you could feel of this birds body and keel you would be calling the animal cops on me. You would swear that I was starving him to death. The same thing happened with my litle perline, as with the Saker, and with the peregrine. The thing I try to get across to people is that weight is everything. It really is. Of course there are a lot of other things that have to be attended to, but from flying passage hawks that I have trapped from the wild, I have learned that you can man one of these birds until one of you die, but it will never become tame enough that you will fly it. Period. There has to be that first weight removal. How much depends on the birds condition when trapped, but in most cases you will have to do that reduction. You can start that weight drop and with a very minimum of manning be right back into the field and hunting within a couple of weeks, but the bird will not be steady and it will not be really tame. But you can do it on weight manipulation alone almost. The idea is to meet the 2 somewhere in the middle. Lots of manning and enough of a weight loss to adjust the hawks attitude. Now, captive bred hawks and falcons are no different in that respect. Only they are not so easy to read. If you are not quite there with a passage hawk, it will tell you so by bating away from you as you approach. Not so the eyass. It will tell you it is starved to death and just has to eat. Until you release it of course, and then the lie is discovered. And of course there are those alarmists that fear flying a hawk other than in a robust condition. They can scare the snot out of someone that does not know. To make a long story shorter, a hawks weight directly effects the degree of tameness it will exhibit. The tamer the hawk is, the easier it is to fly. And it's weight will also determine it's commitment toward quarry. You just have to have the faith in your observations to know when you are making ground or not.

Jack

[pump]

now we have worked through some off his lure issues. [ he still wants to carry a carcuss though but settles once he has broken in ] i am finding it hard to get him fit. once luring he runs out of steam quickly. squeezed 10 passes out of him today. progress has been so slow. i feel with this falcon it is a combanation of weight control and manning that will bring results. as i said earlier he has been stuck in his aviary for the best part of 2 seasons,so its going to take time and patience. so you can see what your letting yourself in for?

[Lee Brindley]

Wow. what a response!

Thanx to everyone who has put their advice forward, and got involved in this one.The bird is still with its original owner at the moment, and I will find out if he is going to part with it in the new year. I will keep you posted.

As you may be aware, I've been off line for a while, and am currently P.C.less. You never know what Santa might bring! (well, I can live in hope.)

Thanx again for all you're help

Lee