Advice / Suggestions Please

[Berkut]

I have stated previously on the forum that I use Marshalls tail mounts.Last year I only took my transmitters off the eagles to change the batteries as I use the ones with the magnetic on/off switch.
I put the transmitter on Bentley yesterday with the intentiion of leaving it on him 24/7 same as last year.When I came home today the transmitter was below his perch and he has broken the deck feather where it enters the body.
It is a feather he did not moult this year so he will drop it next year but I am going to have to imp the feather so the rest don,t start to break due to the lack of support. The second deck was moulted this year so if it were to go it would not be replaced for 2 years.
Anyway sorry to go on but I am trying to fully explain the situation.
I have done a fair bit of imping over the years but due to the nature of the break I need to make a good of this one as I will only get one kick at the ball and also the fact that a complete moult takes theoretically 2 years makes it all the more important.
Any tips or advice would be greatly appreciated.

[Agent D.]

so the snap has left a bit in the folical? can the snapped feather be re-used? using the end of a carbon fibre fishing rod, the rods tappen in so you could use a section of rod that is the correct size of the quill? then a tail mount accross the two feathers for support. but use bellow method with cable tie to hold down the mount, that way when the remaining deck moults you snip the tie, leg mount until the feather regrows then cable tie back on.

gonna draw it and try and post it, will make more sense. please bare with me..

[Pogger]

I wish you the very best of luck with that imping job, it might be worth getting someone who's already damn good at it to give you a hand. I'm real sorry but I can't think of a single thing that would help you out.

Best of luck.

[Tarqers]

a guy i fly with has a fhh which appeared to have moulted out, apart from its decks,strange i know but it is a second clutch and had been kept in the dark by a mumpty,so he put it down to that so he put a single bell holder on one deck and telem brass on the next deck,and blow me down she pulled them both out ,but she grew them straight down,,,,i have heard of this a lot with single mounts, there was a girl the other day on here that reported the same, but i never heard of it with plectrums,,,,tarqs ps if there last years do you think it would be worth pulling it.

[Agent D.]

right. ur basically making a loop of lether around the quill, this is done on both centre decks. the loops are glued with araldyte and have a hole about 4mm from the join.

the mount (see expert prints) is then dropped on. leather loops go up through the slots. a cable tie is then passed through the loops and holds a bell if you want, locking the mount in place.

reason i suggest this;
a) strenght of both decks holding the mount as opposed putting a tube back on the imp.

b) when the imp moults you snip the cable tie, leaving the one remaining deck for another year with the loop, after a month or however the new feather takes, glue a loop onto the new deck and drop the mount back on with the existing feathers loop and the new loop??

might help resove your situation. but gotta leg mount whilst new feather grows?

p.s. hope this helps marks out of 10 for drawings.

[Agent D.]

think i've just fabricated a problem that wasn't there. kind of realising the post was about imping, and not a tail mount issue regarding the imp.:oops:

sorry, :oops:
all that drawing and camera phone work. sorry berkut!

[Salty]

ive always used bamboo m8 shaved to make a nice fit and araldite it in the feather shaft so you have it in your hand to make sure its good.i shove the bamboo down an inch so its a loose or tight fit but not to tight as it splits shaft,then someone cast bird and aralditye on the end of the bamboo needle and shove it in make sure youve tried it for fitting without glue first ,ive never had a one snap m8 and i imagine an eagle shaft preety thick so i dont see how, id hood bird n when its in right posistion i put a lot of flour over the glued bit and stops it gettin on feathers till dry, doesnt take long m8,some people say bamboo not strong enough but it most certainly is,ive used wire before n its bent,but bamboo is mint,you will know thats what a lot of the old falcs used and i always do,[super glue has come off when ive used it but not rapid araldite m8.anyway m8 whichever method you use good luck m8,salty:supz:

[Berkut]

think i've just fabricated a problem that wasn't there. kind of realising the post was about imping, and not a tail mount issue regarding the imp.:oops:

sorry, :oops:
all that drawing and camera phone work. sorry berkut!

Dave,
The thought was there.
The broken feather is re-usable but I reckon I have half an inch inside the bird(no jokes please) to play with so this has to be a good job.

[Berkut]

ive always used bamboo m8 shaved to make a nice fit and araldite it in the feather shaft so you have it in your hand to make sure its good.i shove the bamboo down an inch so its a loose or tight fit but not to tight as it splits shaft,then someone cast bird and aralditye on the end of the bamboo needle and shove it in make sure youve tried it for fitting without glue first ,ive never had a one snap m8 and i imagine an eagle shaft preety thick so i dont see how, id hood bird n when its in right posistion i put a lot of flour over the glued bit and stops it gettin on feathers till dry, doesnt take long m8,some people say bamboo not strong enough but it most certainly is,ive used wire before n its bent,but bamboo is mint,you will know thats what a lot of the old falcs used and i always do,[super glue has come off when ive used it but not rapid araldite m8.anyway m8 whichever method you use good luck m8,salty:supz:

Thanks Salty.It is a real p*sser.

[Harris]

I use this method of attaching the plectrum! as it also allows for extra movement in the deck.

http://www.lancsfalconry.co.uk/tailmount.htm

[Salty]

ye dude but it realy does work sound m8,im not just breakin wind,ive done a good few,i put 9 kes feathers in a spars tail once and they all stayed in,it did break a few later but nowhere near where i imped them,,the shafts go into the flesh a good way also m8,if you have 10 mil showing youve got a good lot m8,[well enough for a good imp,salty

[Stratocaster]

Hello Neil
Have you got a moulted deck from him? if so match the broken feather
against the moulted one, this will give you whats remaining in the follicle
cut the moulted feather at the break then using the end of the quill as a
template make an imping needle from green bamboo to fit.
attach to the broken feather and imp as normal using rapid araldite.
Hope this makes sense Neil, PM me if not, would be happy to help you.
Regards Mike.

[Berkut]

Hello Neil
Have you got a moulted deck from him? if so match the broken feather
against the moulted one, this will give you whats remaining in the follicle
cut the moulted feather at the break then using the end of the quill as a
template make an imping needle from green bamboo to fit.
attach to the broken feather and imp as normal using rapid araldite.
Hope this makes sense Neil, PM me if not, would be happy to help you.
Regards Mike.

Yes Mike I have the moulted deck feather .I have left the broken one on at the moment but will have to snip it of tomorrow.He has obviously pulled the transmitter so hard the feather has buckled where it enters the body.

Thanks Mike ,sounds like a plan.

[Tim Laycock]

Neil do you have any length of sound quill outside the bird at all?

[Haz]

neil,
this can take some doing to achieve but its do-able

make the imp pin long enough to fit as far up into the shaft of the remaining stub end,
dont forget - theres an amount of quill still available for the imp pin to hold in the internals of the bird,
i use a whittled down match stick - very carefully to probe this to judge what length is best to use,
the longer the pin = the better the results,
obviously as always - common sense does prevail on the pin length

and heres the tricky part,
tricky as you need to be careful as always when whittling the imp pin down to fit
inside the shaft without splitting the shaft etc

instead of going for the usual 1/2" or so of pin to go into the mating shaft
make this shaft to fit inside the shaft an inch

what it should hopefully achieve is a stronger imp,
and fitting of mounts for tail bells / telem shouldnt be a problem
as they can be fitted stronger when attaching the cord etc to hold the leather strips,

as the inside of the feathers shaft is now solid,
and will not collapse
also try and mount not only to the newly imped feather
but get a strong hold above the joint if possible

this way the load is not just on the imped on section of the tail


to try and explain clearer:-
the pic below,

1 = the leather strip of the tail mount
2 = shows the joint between stub and imped on tail
3 = shows elongated imp pin
4 = shows cord used to attach leather strip

hope this helps :wink:

[Venividevenatio]

Imping has never been my real strong subject, but....

Best results I have obtained have been with carbon fibre and Araldite Rapid. I glue the carbon fibre into the replacement feather shaft and leave over night, this ensures at least one part of the splint is well glued. The protruding splint is then trimmed to fit the shaft at the folloicle end, either using a moulted feather as a pattern, ( quicker if available) or doing it 'live'.
By doing it in 2 stages, you get a good bond as above, and it reduces casting time and stress. You can even do the imping standing up on the glove with some birds.

Never tried it myself, but a pal has fitted and glued a sleeve made from a larger feather shaft, over the join, in the case of a break where you describe.
Might be worth experimenting on some old feathers?

[Agent D.]

Best results I have obtained have been with carbon fibre and Araldite Rapid. I glue the carbon fibre into the replacement feather shaft and leave over night, this ensures at least one part of the splint is well glued.
By doing it in 2 stages, you get a good bond as above, and it reduces casting time and stress. You can even do the imping standing up on the glove with some birds.


use carbon fibre and araldite too, if you use the end of a fishing rod you can snip a bit at the right diameter.
however i would point out when doing this over two stages you have to make sure you get the correct length imp, which is easier done with the bird cast, i know what your saying but the rapid stuff sets in 90secs, so measure and stick the imp first, then stick it into the quill, its less messy and this way there is only one join of the imp that can twist do to wet glue. i dont think its that much hardship on the hawks part to be cast for that period of time.

[Berkut]

Neil do you have any length of sound quill outside the bird at all?

Tim,
Not even a millimetre unfortunately.

[Agent D.]

Tim,
Not even a millimetre unfortunately.

****EY. SOUNDS EVEN MORE DANGEROUS TO BE JABBING AN IMP COVERED IN ARALDITE INTO A FOLICAL, DUE YOU THINK THE DANGER OF PERMINANT DAMAGE OUTWAYS THE CONS OF SITTING IT OUT FOR A YEAR?

I DONT KNOW JUST ASKING, NEVER HAD TO IMP PRETTY MUCH STRAIGHT INTO THE FOLICAL? CAN IT BE DONE? SEEMS YOUR GONNA HAVE TO BE AWEFULLY SURE OF YOU GLUEING ABILITIES!!
HELL. BETWEEN A ROCK AND A HARD PLACE!

[GoodFooter]

Neil.....I am assuming the feather broke rather than pulled out so it is the feather shaft not the follicle you will be working with?

I see it that you have 2 choices.

1) imp. benefits....stronger joint ( I'd use carbon fibre) disadvantage... if it brakes again on the joint your stuffed for the future.
2) glue in the replacement.benefits...if it brakes again you will be able to imp or glue in again.Disadvantage possibly not as strong.

I've used both with good results but this was on a spar who thought she was a feather duster.... the pressure would have been less.

Can you leg mount in future.....you dont want to risk the new deck. If not you may want to put a 'weak' link on the telemetry so if he pulls it the telemetry gives rather than the feather.

Rob

[Berkut]

Great response and thanks for all the advice.
I have snipped the feather off today and it is certainly re-usable ,but as I feared I only have the section of feather to work with, that remains in the eagle.
I have compared this to the the moulted feather and I think it is about an inch or maybe a little more.I am going to have to be very careful so I am not going to rush into it.

[JFSeaman]

For an imping pin, I suggest carbon fibre tube. This is a high stress area of the feather and you only get one chance. Bamboo and match sticks work great but carbon fibre doesn't break (well amost).

Take the broken feather to a model airplane shop. Find a hollow carbon fibre tube that just fits the quill. If you have a problem with fit, PM me and I will give you my phone number so we can discuss.

As an alternative, remnents from a carbon fibre fishing pole if you know someone who has them but size is the issue.

If you want go down this route, PM me for the remainder of the materials list and steps. I don't have any eagle sized carbon or I'd send you the bits.

Now, does anyone know if there is any requirment for air movement inside the base of the quill?

[Matthew Patching]

Hey Neil.

I have had the same problem a few years ago.

The best way to solve it I found was to get another whole feather and carefully sand down the top if the shaft until it fits inside the bit that is left inside the bird, then with the bird cast glue in place with araldite rapid ( dont use super glue as you will burn the bird). dust around the join with flour, or chalk powder so that any glue residue deosnt stick to the surounding feathers.

Hood the bird up and leave quietly for a couple of hours so that the glue can go off properly and then she's as good as new.

This is a labourious way of doing the imp, but I had one stay in this way for about 18 months, and there is no pin to break.

All the best mate,

Matt.

[Kentish Falconry]

For an imping pin, I suggest carbon fibre tube. This is a high stress area of the feather and you only get one chance. Bamboo and match sticks work great but carbon fibre doesn't break (well amost).

Take the broken feather to a model airplane shop. Find a hollow carbon fibre tube that just fits the quill. If you have a problem with fit, PM me and I will give you my phone number so we can discuss.

As an alternative, remnents from a carbon fibre fishing pole if you know someone who has them but size is the issue.

If you want go down this route, PM me for the remainder of the materials list and steps. I don't have any eagle sized carbon or I'd send you the bits.

Now, does anyone know if there is any requirment for air movement inside the base of the quill?

Well done Fred thanks for responding. I am sure Neil will contact you direct
Terry

[Berkut]

For an imping pin, I suggest carbon fibre tube. This is a high stress area of the feather and you only get one chance. Bamboo and match sticks work great but carbon fibre doesn't break (well amost).

Take the broken feather to a model airplane shop. Find a hollow carbon fibre tube that just fits the quill. If you have a problem with fit, PM me and I will give you my phone number so we can discuss.

As an alternative, remnents from a carbon fibre fishing pole if you know someone who has them but size is the issue.

If you want go down this route, PM me for the remainder of the materials list and steps. I don't have any eagle sized carbon or I'd send you the bits.

Now, does anyone know if there is any requirment for air movement inside the base of the quill?

I will PM you for your number.Terry phoned today and said to contact you.
Regards,
Neil.

[GoodFooter]

Hey Neil.

I have had the same problem a few years ago.

The best way to solve it I found was to get another whole feather and carefully sand down the top if the shaft until it fits inside the bit that is left inside the bird, then with the bird cast glue in place with araldite rapid ( dont use super glue as you will burn the bird). dust around the join with flour, or chalk powder so that any glue residue deosnt stick to the surounding feathers.

Hood the bird up and leave quietly for a couple of hours so that the glue can go off properly and then she's as good as new.

This is a labourious way of doing the imp, but I had one stay in this way for about 18 months, and there is no pin to break.

All the best mate,

Matt.

I prefer this method 'glue in' as if it breaks you get another chance. I cut the tip off the replacement feather made a small cut up the shaft so the adjoining layers could overlap. that way no need to sand. Good tip about the chalk Ive used talc....old spice....well had to use it some where. Like i said before worked a treat on a spar.
swing tips/quiver tips for fishing come in different thicknesses, swingtips are equal diameter and quiver taper and are carbon fibre....perfect for imping.( probably need a pretty bigun for an eagle deck though.)

[Salty]

For an imping pin, I suggest carbon fibre tube. This is a high stress area of the feather and you only get one chance. Bamboo and match sticks work great but carbon fibre doesn't break (well amost).

Take the broken feather to a model airplane shop. Find a hollow carbon fibre tube that just fits the quill. If you have a problem with fit, PM me and I will give you my phone number so we can discuss.

As an alternative, remnents from a carbon fibre fishing pole if you know someone who has them but size is the issue.

If you want go down this route, PM me for the remainder of the materials list and steps. I don't have any eagle sized carbon or I'd send you the bits.

Now, does anyone know if there is any requirment for air movement inside the base of the quill? match sticks do break and i would not use one,bamboo is much tougher,test a piece the same diamiter as a match and youl see m8,carbon fibre is good as is bamboo,salty:supz:

[Haz]

and its a well know fact in engineering
that a tube is inherantly stronger and lighter than a solid bar,

dont believe me ??

go look at the wheel spindles on your neighbours high powered motor bike,
wheels are held in place by a simple tube,

[LongVVing]

and its a well know fact in engineering
that a tube is inherantly stronger and lighter than a solid bar,

dont believe me ??

go look at the wheel spindles on your neighbours high powered motor bike,
wheels are held in place by a simple tube,

Maybe a tube of bamboo or carbon fibre if you can get it in a diameter that will insert.

I have used semi-circular slices of an old carbon fibre fly rod I broke. Problem is the splinters when cutting/sanding, but the cf is strong and being semi-circular (an arch effectively which is again stronger than a solid wall) is strong and wont twist.

On a Goldie tail it may be possible to insert the very end tube of a carbon fibre rod or piece of bamboo?

Mark

[Redeye]

Personally i'd be wary of imping in with a carbon fibre rod due to the flexing at the base of the tail putting additional stress at the point just below the imping rod. I like good footers idea of just imping the feather back into the shaft albeit it will be an inch or so shorter.

For a deck break near the base of my m gos's tail i have used cotton ear bud tube, light , hollow and flexible and after a bit of sanding or s****ing with knife you get a good key.
I have thought about but never tried using the shaft from another feather as an imp pin as surely this would flex nicely and be at least as strong as the surrounding feather.

[ostringer]

I have stated previously on the forum that I use Marshalls tail mounts.Last year I only took my transmitters off the eagles to change the batteries as I use the ones with the magnetic on/off switch.
I put the transmitter on Bentley yesterday with the intentiion of leaving it on him 24/7 same as last year.When I came home today the transmitter was below his perch and he has broken the deck feather where it enters the body.
It is a feather he did not moult this year so he will drop it next year but I am going to have to imp the feather so the rest don,t start to break due to the lack of support. The second deck was moulted this year so if it were to go it would not be replaced for 2 years.
Anyway sorry to go on but I am trying to fully explain the situation.
I have done a fair bit of imping over the years but due to the nature of the break I need to make a good of this one as I will only get one kick at the ball and also the fact that a complete moult takes theoretically 2 years makes it all the more important.
Any tips or advice would be greatly appreciated.

Get yourself a section of an old fishing rod carbons best but glassfibre works,using asharp knife make splinters of the rod to make needles for imping watch those fingers . used these regurely they are very strong and flexable dont use super glue to fix them in place it breaks down if it gets wet use a good epoxy glue like araldite

[Phill Gibbons]

I have some piano wire you can have i find it works great on imp eagles

[james HH]

I used the tip of a fishing rod...carbon fibre and it works fine...

[Slippery Teal]

Hi Neil i have just put a full tail in a spar for a friend and i mean a full tail right up to the works. The feathers i has were abit longer than others but heres a pic not a good job but she will get throught moult. I used carbon fibre solid rods epoxy them in for a few hours then glue them. Here goes sorry about the quality took with my mobile

[Berkut]

Thanks for all the advice and suggestions.As it turned out ,this was a deck feather that never moulted last year so I know it will moult this year.
I ended up leaving it as it was and because of the fact the feather was broken so far up it is barely noticeable unless you count the remaining tail feathers.Luckily I am very conscious of the situation and watch what is happening and with only 4 or 5 weeks to go till the end of the season,hopefully all will be fine.
Thanks again,
Neil.