Up Wind & Down Wind

[Eznugud]

One for the crow hawkers…..

For the last 12 years I’ve been having an on going friendly disagreement with a good friend regarding slipping falcons into the wind at crows.

He slips into wind religiously no matter what; he would sooner not take the slip if he can’t get into a cock on downwind position, seriously I have known him drive and walk miles to get into his “ideal” position.

I on the other hand I never give wind direction a thought anymore, when I first started crow hawking I used to slip into wind because at the time it was the “done thing”.
Half way through my first season flying at crows I realised that it didn’t make any difference at all.
My hybrids just used make a “b” line for the crows no matter where they were slipped from and my peregrine used to sort it out for herself

My argument with him is that if a falcon is faster than a crow up wind it is also faster downwind, he counters that by saying the crow will reach cover faster going downwind……..get closer to the crow before you slip.

Does anyone else have any friendly thoughts on this…….?

[Agent D.]

don't really give the wind much thought, just hood off and let her power towards them, what falcon do you use? he use?
i think anything with a bit of gyr should have the strength to power into the wind. do they [the gyr] show preference to a pursuit rather then a stoop??
i'm gonna make a note of the misses and record wind direction tho, will update in a week or so.
interesting thread.

[KevGem1]

in what little experience i have crow hawking iv found my falcon can cut through a head wind better than the crow and therfore a good chance of getting on terms with it before it can get to cover.my falcon isnt a gyr cross and only flys at 1lb10oz whether this is a factor i dont know?and i do fly on fairly enclosed land it would be interesting to hear some of the more experienced crow hawkers views. KEV

[BHawk]

ive always been concious of th wind although it has very rarely affected the way i slip a bird, although to be honest as long as your having fun and the bird is good then wind direction doesnt matter as much either way! happy hunting

[Eznugud]

don't really give the wind much thought, just hood off and let her power towards them, what falcon do you use? he use?
i think anything with a bit of gyr should have the strength to power into the wind. do they [the gyr] show preference to a pursuit rather then a stoop??
i'm gonna make a note of the misses and record wind direction tho, will update in a week or so.
interesting thread.

I have only flown pere x saker {m & f} and female peregrine at crows, my friend the same.
The hybrids always straight line, the peregrine on the other hand tends to always try and gain a height advantage before she committed herself.
From what a can remember she hardly every went direct, she would ****** off in a completely different direction the come back into wind.
That could be me that was at fault with her initial training, she was the first falcon I had flown a crows {1993} and it was a lot of trial and error.

None have my falcons have ever really struggled cutting into wind, and I have flown then in some bloody stupid weather conditions.

I’ve just been looking back through my old hawking diaries; I started really well stating upwind or downwind slip but stopped after 3 weeks… the hand writing also turned into a scribble.

[Agent D.]

the hand writing also turned into a scribble.

mine too, infact the only way to read some of my old hawking diaries is to pin them up on a board and run past them!!!!:-D :-D

the reason i've not paid much attention to the wind is i drive around and slip at what ever i can find, naturally getting out of the car inorder to do this:oops: .

i think i'll record the wind vs sucess and see. that said it was totally still yesterday and she caught a jackdaw, poor thing went to ground in the middle of a large stubble field, probably with eyes tight shut as 2lb.6 of lump hit it. he should of just got out of the way she can't turn that well.

[MattSpar]

The idea of always slipping from a directly downwind position is that it produces a better flight. The whole object of rook hawking is to see a good flight with stoops, not a tail chase which goes away from the falconer at the outset and disappears rapidly into the hinterland. To disregard this and slip willy-nilly is to miss the essence of what rook hawking is all about.

Of course, one needs good country in which to do this, and I'd hazard a guess and say that those who slip in any direction possibly fly in enclosed countryside where the choice of slip is limited, or have insufficient ground on which to make a really suitable choice.

With telemetry, such flights are, of course, possible, but one still has no control.

I must admit, I have occasionally disregarded this rule, for instance, if time is pressing, or rooks are in short supply, but I always wish I'd stayed my hand and done it properly.

These days, if a good slip doesn't present itself, I'll keep on going till it does.

[MattSpar]

seriously I have known him drive and walk miles to get into his “ideal” position.


Recently, whilst rook hawking on The Plain, my friend and I drove for three hours, passing many, many rooks, till a good slip presented itself.

It was worth the wait.

[Venividevenatio]

I agree entirly with MattSpar. ( again!)
I also hunt corvids in relativly enclosed land, but still favour the upwind slip if at all possible, but as others have pointed out it is not always possible!
The upwind slip is also prefereable for the novice hawk, it allows
the novice to command the quarry, and also put on a little height with that commanding position, which results in speed when needed.
Also, if it all goes wrong, with a failed attack, or lost bird, the hawk is upwind of you, and as the hawk nearly always comes back down the wind, the advatages are obvious.
The problems arise with the rapid learning capabilities of the corvids.
After they have been hunted a couple of times, they know exactly where not to place themselves given a certain wind dirrection!
I am so jealous of those with realy open country, ''Thou shalt not covert thy neighbours hawking ground!''

[MattSpar]

After they have been hunted a couple of times, they know exactly where not to place themselves given a certain wind dirrection!

Hence the need for a very large area to fly over.

I'm lucky enough to fly on 13,000 acres regularly, and on The Plain (94,000 acres) fairly often.

Believe it or not, good slips are still by no means easily found on some days.

[Jack]

The rules of Rook hawking came to be a very long time ago. The coming of telemetry has changed all that. The main purpose of the upwind slip was to be able to somewhat control the flight. For obvious reasons. Without a transmitter it might not be real wise to force a long tail chase and take a chance on losing a valuable falcon. The flight into the wind will have the falcon over take it's quarry with a bit of a pitch, and upon stooping and driving the quarry they will attempt to fly into the wind but will quickly revert back to the downwind. The falcon can then use it's pitch to command the field of sport and drive the quarry close to ground where it can not maneuver well. If the falcon kills it will have done so back down wind toward you, or if it is a miss or a tail chase that is obviously going to take the falcon away, you have the option of the lure. These things become extremely important when you do not have a transmitter on the bird. I have seen falconers take some foolish chances simply because of it. Throw your transmitters into the sock drawer and you will immediately change the way you fly your birds.

Jack

[Eznugud]

I fly on just over 24,000 acres and not an edge row in sight and very few trees.
I started to fly falcons at crows in 1993 and for my sins have killed a hell of a lot of crows.
I was not asking for a lesson in crow hawking, I agree that you get a more “classic” flight with in to wind slips……..and it’s a bit easier on the legs when it over.
Our disagreement is you do not need to slip into wind every time for your bird to have a chance of catching the crow.

I may not be too particular with the wind direction anymore, but I am very particular with location…….

[MattSpar]

I was not asking for a lesson in crow hawking.

No, you were asking for a discussion on the subject, and that's what you've got.





Our disagreement is you do not need to slip into wind every time for your bird to have a chance of catching the crow.

Agreed.

[Eznugud]

Well that’s 3 times you have edited your response…..

No I was not asking for a discussion on crow hawking, I was discussing how my friend was so set in his ways that he will not slip into wind and is convinced that’s it almost impossible for a falcon to catch a crow with a down wind slip even though he’s seen my falcon do it on 100`s of occasions over the years….

And as for my earlier response, I was not being defensive {word used on your second edit}, I was merely trying to put across that because I don’t have a 2000+ post count and new to these forums it does not mean that I know sod all about falconry….. You come across very patronising in your post and give the impression that you have your head stuck up your own arse…..

[Agent D.]

my friend was so set in his ways that he will not slip into wind and is convinced that’s it almost impossible for a falcon to catch a crow with a down wind slip

what does he do cross wind? lol. doah! lol
think you two have crossed wires. its a good thread and imo all the posts are interesting, relevent and around the subject.
don't think we should finish it with a slagging match.

[MattSpar]

don't think we should finish it with a slagging match.

Don't worry about that, I'm much too busy trying to get my head from my a**e in order to patronise a little more.

I'll edit this post in a while.

[Eznugud]

what does he do cross wind? lol. doah! lol

Seriously, he would not slip his bird……I cant make my mind up about him, part of me really thinks that he does it because he knows it really winds me up and he actually does slip down wind and cross wind when I’m not with him.
On the other hand I think he could be a very hardcore “traditionalist” and wants only classic style flights and would sooner go without…..I really cant work him out and I’ve know him all my life.

don't think we should finish it with a slagging match.

Agreed, head up your arse was meant in a very friendly manner and typed with a smile on my face.

[MattSpar]

Agreed, head up your arse was meant in a very friendly manner and typed with a smile on my face.

Ok, if that's true, then I hold out my metaphorical hand, and wish you continued success, both upwind, and down, in your crowhunting.