Pen Hacked or Not?

[Eznugud]

Pen hacked or Not….

The reason for this thread is for me to make a decision on a pen hacked bird or a non-hacked bird for 2007.
The Gyr / Saker X Pere we have here know is my sons bird, so I will have to get my own for the 2007 / 2008 season.

Obviously things have moved on and really progressed over the last 8 years regarding breeding and rearing falcons.
I have been reading and fully understand the benefits of putting a falcon into a larger hack pen for 3 weeks.

I know I can get a young falcon at 8 weeks old and have it well and truly entered on crows within about 4 weeks {ish}.
I know this falcon will be able to do 100+ stoops {in 2 bouts} to a lure within 3 weeks.
Plus I enjoy seeing that first ever flight over 10yds and the panic when it cant stop, I like seeing the falcon twisting and turning behind a crow and knowing that everything thing he has learnt about flying was learnt with me.

I really can’t decided if a hacked falcon would be beneficial to me, maybe I’m just set in my ways because the words “better the devil you know” are going through my head..
I’m basically looking for someone who’s flown both at crows to give me some advice…or at least a comparison

p.s….If any breeders read this thread it is not me wanting or trying to knock pen hacked falcons, I would not dream of knocking something I have not tried........well thats not 100% true but i`ll not go there....

[Venividevenatio]

From experience with both hack pen, and fresh from chamber longwings, trained as pursuit falcons hunting at corvids.........

A hacked bird ( I prefer a month rather than 3 weeks) is definitly more muscled.
Importantly, it is also more mature mentaly. When it leaves 'the nest', its parents will still feed it for several weeks. Being in the hack pen makes it feed itself.
It is also a good time to introduce prospective quarry as a food source, by feeding dead rooks, pheasant or whatever.
There is also a case for putting just a single bird in a hack pen, but that may not be logisticly possible.

If you are wanting a pursuit falcon, I would have grave resevations about stooping it to the lure 2x50 passes. You may regret that 'excercise' once the bird has become a killer. If the hawk is a mile or two away, and has the remotest suspicion that the lure means hard work, it is likely to seek easier food where it is.
I often wonder if this practise is how the gyr and its hybids got their reputation?

I understand your pride in seeing the hawk twisting and turning after its crow. I personaly do not believe that swinging the lure, however expertly, gets close to fully prepareing the hawk. I suggest that most of the hawks skill and fitness is learnt from chasing the real thing.
There is no substitute.
The lure's most important job is surely as an un-questionable recall tool ?

You will still have that knot in the stomach, the first day it goes free, and wonder if it can turn.....there is little wind in a hack pen!
I am sure that once you have trained a bird from a hack pen, you will wonder what on earth it was that you were worried about!

Buy a well bred bird from a breeder with a good hack pen, you wont regret it!
Good luck and have fun!

[Hhaawwkkeerr]

Sorry misread that,thought it said hen pecked.................I'll get me coat!!

[Eznugud]

If you are wanting a pursuit falcon, I would have grave resevations about stooping it to the lure 2x50 passes. You may regret that 'excercise' once the bird has become a killer. If the hawk is a mile or two away, and has the remotest suspicion that the lure means hard work, it is likely to seek easier food where it is.
I often wonder if this practise is how the gyr and its hybids got their reputation?

To be honest I’ve trained pursuit falcons using this method since 1993 and it works for me….”if it’s not broke don’t fix it”, my falcons trained like this average 150 crows per season.
I stoop them hard for at least a week and half to two weeks and then long lure them once to a dead crow; the day after the long lure I try them with slips at crows.
I have never had any real problems with a falcon returning to the lure
I’ve never been one for long luring, if a falcon knows what the lure is it knows what it is be it 1 foot or 1 mile away.
I didn’t know that gyr hybrids had a reputation….

Getting back to it……

I personaly do not believe that swinging the lure, however expertly, gets close to fully prepareing the hawk. I suggest that most of the hawks skill and fitness is learnt from chasing the real thing

You see this is why I can’t see how a hacked bird would be beneficial to me.
I don’t agree with the above, you can get a falcon more than fit enough to catch crows with a swung lure.
I have never had a falcon have to stop chasing a crow because it was knackered even in the very early stages.
My last hybrid had a 2 flight 1 kill ratio over the season; can I better that with a hacked falcon?
The way I’m looking at it at the moment with a hacked falcon I would be wasting 3 to 4 weeks.
I don’t know, I think when it comes down to it I will go for a hacked falcon just so that I have tried it and will be able to compare them for myself..

Thanks for the imput.....

[Venividevenatio]

Well from what you have said, I would stick to what you know, and what has very definitly worked for you!

There are not many falconers about pre WaCA 1983, did you fly wild taken Perigrines? ( jelous!!) Did your training regime alter with chamber raised birds. How close to wild hacked chamber raised birds are wild taken, in their attitude and fitness?
And also compared with birds taken straight from the breeding chamber?

I am surprised that you have not heard that birds with Gyr in them do disappearing acts into the wide blue yonder. I have not had that problem. Others have suggested it is in the basic make up, combine the power, stamina and speed of the Gyr, with the speed and hunting ferocity of a Perigrine..........??? Certainly if hunting from waiting on type position, they soon learn that they can kill from virtualy anywhere. So perhaps that is why they are supposedly apt to disappear, at long range check?

I will look forward to your posts next season, as I am sure I will glean some more falconry knowledge from you!

[Eznugud]

Well from what you have said, I would stick to what you know, and what has very definitly worked for you!

I think I would do the same routine even if I end up with a hacked bird, but from what I now understand with a bit less lure work.

There are not many falconers about pre WaCA 1983, did you fly wild taken Perigrines? ( jelous!!) Did your training regime alter with chamber raised birds. How close to wild hacked chamber raised birds are wild taken, in their attitude and fitness?
And also compared with birds taken straight from the breeding chamber?

1993…..flew hawks for a lot of years before, but actually didn’t start with falcons until 1993.
I have however had the opportunity to fly a passage peregrine in 1995, it was handed into to me “injured”.
Put it in a pen for a few weeks, realised that there was sod all wrong with it but obviously had to fly it and evaluate it before it was released.
It was magnificent at flying and made the aviary breed falcons look silly; I caught a few rooks with it and let it go.
I had not been flying falcons for long at the time; I wish I could have got my hands of the same bird a few years later when I had more idea of what I was doing.

I am surprised that you have not heard that birds with Gyr in them do disappearing acts into the wide blue yonder. I have not had that problem. Others have suggested it is in the basic make up, combine the power, stamina and speed of the Gyr, with the speed and hunting ferocity of a Perigrine..........??? Certainly if hunting from waiting on type position, they soon learn that they can kill from virtualy anywhere. So perhaps that is why they are supposedly apt to disappear, at long range check?

I’ve been out of the falconry “loop” for a few years, to be honest I’m pretty lost with all this 7/8 this and 5/8 that……everything used to be 50/50 and I understood what birds were…
I had a few problems with sake hybrids ******ing off if they missed, but nothing serious.

I will look forward to your posts
next season, as I am sure I will glean some more falconry knowledge from you!

Keep an eye out within the next few weeks, I’ve just got my son is first falcon and it’s coming on great guns.
The way he’s going with it we should be trying to enter it early in the new year..