You won’t beat a good female peregrine

[Eznugud]

Could turn out a bit controversial this one.
A post on another thread prompted me to start this thread; I should imagine that you have discussed this before but I’m pretty new here so give me a bit of leeway.

Quote: “You won’t beat a good female peregrine on rooks”

Why won’t you beat a good peregrine on rooks?

I personally believe that they are easily beaten on rooks by hybrids, depending on what you want out of rook / crow hawking.

What are your “honest” opinions?

What about the falconers who fly game, can a good peregrine be beaten at grouse, pheasant, duck or partridge?

Better not forget about gulls either..

Cheers

[SnapeDek]

Rooks probably , i aint ever flown a hybrid but i would imagine that some would be more consistant at rooks gulls etc. But for partridge and grouse there is only one . cheers Rich

[Eznugud]

But for partridge and grouse there is only one . cheers Rich

Fair comment Rich......but why?

[SnapeDek]

Fair comment Rich......but why?

Ithink with game hawks the style of flight is important pitch and stoop etc a peregrine can not be beaten at this kind of flight gulls rooks etc tend to be long persistant chasing with lots of shorter stoops and remember flown from the fist i think a gyr hybrid probably a gyr pere would be the buisness for these flights .Of coarse there are alot of good hybrid game hawks and alot of good peregrine rook hawks cheers just my opinion, and ther will be people on here with alot more experience than me flying falcons . Rich

[Dean]

For traditional style pure gamehawking the peregrine,tiercel/falcon is unbeatable in my book! Certain hybrid species if flown to their abilities can be more successful at game,tally wise! Gamehawking with a twist,so to speak!

[Falcons7]

Gyr x Peregrines and some saker x peregrines gain a pitch ,on a hole more readily than Falcons .To the point of making some of there owners thinking their ALL THAT ,only to recieve a kick in the nards when they try to do it with a female peregrine. I think a hybred is very dangerous at a pitch but a female peregrine at a pitch is a force of nature and at the top of her game are only out done by certain eagles coming down from way up there but as were talking about ,or atleast I am ,talking about game hawking ,the game your flying gives the answer to this question ,there more than a little worried when flying a hybred tiercel or even a tiercel peregrine but when a falcons is up there doing it ,they shat them selves and often hold more tightly and often act a little differant. Crows often mob hybreds ,tiercels and eyas falcons but when the falcon gets her attertude deliverd that all stops and clear off soon as they see them open there wings!!





Could turn out a bit controversial this one.
A post on another thread prompted me to start this thread; I should imagine that you have discussed this before but I’m pretty new here so give me a bit of leeway.

Quote: “You won’t beat a good female peregrine on rooks”

Why won’t you beat a good peregrine on rooks?

I personally believe that they are easily beaten on rooks by hybrids, depending on what you want out of rook / crow hawking.

What are your “honest” opinions?

What about the falconers who fly game, can a good peregrine be beaten at grouse, pheasant, duck or partridge?

Better not forget about gulls either..

Cheers

[Berkut]

Hybrids are for falconers who

Lack field skills.

Lack the land suitable for a Longwing limited to natures caperbilities

Dont know how to condition a Longwing

Cant manage to get a bird fit to take game

Dont understand Rook hawking & what the REAL GOAL IS (ps its not the kill)

Dont have the money for falconry (hybrid males are a by-product)

How do i know this.. cause everyone i fly with is man enough to admit, as i am, that hybrids suit todays modern falconer cause were tied up faffing about with other duties

We can no longer dedicate time to our longwings,
We no longer have access to good land (no not local football pitches)
and we lack the field skills that should have been passed to us from the last great falconers

We are a hybrid generation
And all of this was found out by accident

We bred falcons for the arabs that were hybrids,
We didnt tell them this until many years in to the trend of large White Sakers

But the poor males... sold to us english falconers

Now is the case where Many breeding centres are now back logged in Hybrid males, you only have to look at the IBR site to see 2005 untouched GyrXperegrines still for sale..... if there not sold.. where in your fluffy little world do you think there going to end up?

The sooner we ban hybrids the faster the sport will return to only those in the position to do it

If you love Falconry that much you will find a way round it
But you wont be able to fly your gos 3 days a week like your harris

Take up fishing & keep the Reel oiled!


Now those of you that have decent land, and enough time to fly your bird
and consider yourself a "GOOD" falconer

Why do you still fly a hybrid?
Is a pure peregrine not fast enough?

or does not killing every day with your game Hawk make you feel less of a Falconer?


Tinto

Tinto,
I have to disagree with the bulk of your post I,m afraid. I have flown pure peregrines at game,corvids and gulls very successfully.
From a gamehawking point of view I would say peregrine all day long.In fact ,although I have flown a variety of raptors,if I had to choose one to fly to the exclusion of all else it would be a tiercel peregrine or a small female at grouse.

As for hybrids, I fly them at gulls in particular and the reason I do it is because I want to as they do the job better than anything else.This is not just a notion , it is from years of doing it.This is when hybrid vigour kicks in and they tend be more inclined to put more effort in and are more likely to persevere.
Don,t get me wrong if you get a good peregrine on gulls they are fantastic but you have more of a chance of making a good gull hawk from a hybrid,and gyr/peregrine would be my first choice.

As far as the real goal not being the kill I have to say that is nonsense.It does not matter which branch of falconry you practice that IS the main goal(even if only for the birds sake). Style and all the trimmings have to be incidental and we have more chance of enjoying a spectacular flight from a hawk that kills on a very regular basis.
When I go hawking if I didn,t come back with something in the bag I would be very disappointed.If that happens to anyone on a regular basis they are doing something wrong or are just playing at it.

As for dedicating time to falconry,my life is dedicated to falconry.

Some of your points are valid and probably do apply to some people but to generalise and tar us all with the same brush is wrong.
Regards,
Neil.

[Terry Hanson]

Could turn out a bit controversial this one.
A post on another thread prompted me to start this thread; I should imagine that you have discussed this before but I’m pretty new here so give me a bit of leeway.

Quote: “You won’t beat a good female peregrine on rooks”

Why won’t you beat a good peregrine on rooks?

I personally believe that they are easily beaten on rooks by hybrids, depending on what you want out of rook / crow hawking.

What are your “honest” opinions?

What about the falconers who fly game, can a good peregrine be beaten at grouse, pheasant, duck or partridge?

Better not forget about gulls either..

Cheers

The oldhawking club boys managed very well on PURE peregrines. Infact Pure gyr's and sakers had dissapointing results, as per the reading in the old books.
Whether they would have flown hybrids if they were available is another story
:lol:
Cat among the pigeons and all that:rolleyes:

[Dean]

Aint this a funny game eh! I have found peregrines to be far more reliable and straight forward during training and fieldwork than any of my hybrids! I would say to train a hybrid to a very high standard requires very similar skill and effort,if not more so than that of the peregrine!

[Ovambo]

very true berkut.....

[Haz]

cat amoungst the pigeons with this one is right....

can't personally comment on this hybrid / pure bred debate.

as i have only ever flown pure breds,
hybrid vigour.. ??
that extra push ??

you can get all this from a well handled and well trained pure bred,
just takes an expirienced hand to bring it into play,

afterall - a lurcher is far better at coursing than a greyhound,

but a greyhound thats being run by someone with the years of expierience behind them,
will out perform that of a lurcher owned by a lesser expirienced handler

the advantages may be there in the breeding,
but without the ability to tap into honing them,

whats the point in having them in the first place

[Berkut]

Aint this a funny game eh! I have found peregrines to be far more reliable and straight forward during training and fieldwork than any of my hybrids! I would say to train a hybrid to a very high standard requires very similar skill and effort,if not more so than that of the peregrine!

Well put Dean.I agree.

[SeagulBasher]

i've flown lots of both hybrids and pure breds and had some very good ones of both but for consistancy and reliablity the best folcons i've had have been pure peregrines dont get me wrong the hybrids i have had in the past have been excellent at there job but for me its a pure peregrine that makes me tick the only thing i will say is that peregrines dont seem to face cover like hybrids when they put in but if the birds fit it will do the biz :supz:

colin

[Dean]

Tintotoro,some of the subject in your posts is off this planet mate! Take a hybrid,man it for a week and go catch a crow?? Are too easy for game?? It takes over a ****in week to block train most falcons!:rolleyes:

[Mark Collins]

Tinto,
I have to disagree with the bulk of your post I,m afraid. I have flown pure peregrines at game,corvids and gulls very successfully.
From a gamehawking point of view I would say peregrine all day long.In fact ,although I have flown a variety of raptors,if I had to choose one to fly to the exclusion of all else it would be a tiercel peregrine or a small female at grouse.

As for hybrids, I fly them at gulls in particular and the reason I do it is because I want to as they do the job better than anything else.This is not just a notion , it is from years of doing it.This is when hybrid vigour kicks in and they tend be more inclined to put more effort in and are more likely to persevere.
Don,t get me wrong if you get a good peregrine on gulls they are fantastic but you have more of a chance of making a good gull hawk from a hybrid,and gyr/peregrine would be my first choice.

As far as the real goal not being the kill I have to say that is nonsense.It does not matter which branch of falconry you practice that IS the main goal(even if only for the birds sake). Style and all the trimmings have to be incidental and we have more chance of enjoying a spectacular flight from a hawk that kills on a very regular basis.
When I go hawking if I didn,t come back with something in the bag I would be very disappointed.If that happens to anyone on a regular basis they are doing something wrong or are just playing at it.

As for dedicating time to falconry,my life is dedicated to falconry.

Some of your points are valid and probably do apply to some people but to generalise and tar us all with the same brush is wrong.
Regards,
Neil.

VERY GOOD POINT NEIL , A GYR/PEREGRINE ON GULLS /CROWS , IS SO MUCH MORE MANOUVARABLE THAN A PURE PEREGRINE, A TIERCEL CAN TURN ON A SIXPENCE , IT IS HORSES FOR COUSES.

[Berkut]

It does make me weep when a nice steamy stoop from 600+ ends in a bush cause the quary bailed.. Hybrids, the longwinged Harris

Tinto,
I am all for sensible discussions.Your profile doesn,t tell us much about your falconry experience to date but it looks like you are at the wind up.What you are posting is confrontational ****.

[Barbary Boy]

the attraction of hybreds, none indidgeonous and exotics is just pure human nature. every car in the world can do 70 mph so why spend money on a sports car? coz we can! and want to? they are something different, unknown,exciting. i agree a good peregrine in the uk is hard to beat, but as long as people have choice they will choose? hybreds and non indiginous will definatly become a thing of the past in the not to distant future but as long as people can have variety there is a market, and why not.

[MattSpar]

Aint this a funny game eh! I have found peregrines to be far more reliable and straight forward during training and fieldwork than any of my hybrids! I would say to train a hybrid to a very high standard requires very similar skill and effort,if not more so than that of the peregrine!

I agree entirely.

The peregrine is the most easily conditioned of the longwings.

As for the rest of tintotoro's post, it's a lot of very sweeping statements, none of which has any real basis in fact, as far as I can see.

I've flown peregrines at rooks a lot. I have the time. I have the money. I have the right land. Dare I say it, I have the expertise.

At this time, I'm flying hybrid.

[Eznugud]

Tinto, Get down from that horse mate it’s a little to high.

Having started this thread I’d better give my thoughts….

I have access to as near as damit perfect land for rook / crow hawking.
I have enough time to fly my falcon everyday weather permitting.
I can also afford it, obviously the wife can think of better things to spend my wages on.
I choose to fly hybrids and preferably males, because they suit my style of crow hawking more than a peregrine does.

Training wise, I couldn’t say one was any different to the other, same with entering them at crows both are as easy or as hard as fate decides.

I noticed that the “old hawking club” peregrines were mentioned, the old hawking club members did not have the choice of a Hybrid.

So my opinion is, Peregrines are brilliant crow hawks but the hybrid is better for my style of crow hawking.

[Merger]

I agree entirely.

The peregrine is the most easily conditioned of the longwings.

As for the rest of tintotoro's post, it's a lot of very sweeping statements, none of which has any real basis in fact, as far as I can see.

I've flown peregrines at rooks a lot. I have the time. I have the money. I have the right land. Dare I say it, I have the expertise.

At this time, I'm flying hybrid.Agreed Mattspar, I to have flown almost all hybrid species at on time or another,, and am very happy to have had my day!! I saw more peregrines at woodhall this year than before, so the trend is turning,, as for many Gyr hybrids being easy :rolleyes: , they can drive you to dispair at times!! the gyr/ peregrine, is a fantastic gamehawk in the right hands, in America, were they have the oppurtunity, to eat the sky up! as for prices,, they aint always been cheap!!

[StoopDoggyDogg]

stop talking out of your ear


Steve




Hybrids are for falconers who

Lack field skills.

Lack the land suitable for a Longwing limited to natures caperbilities

Dont know how to condition a Longwing

Cant manage to get a bird fit to take game

Dont understand Rook hawking & what the REAL GOAL IS (ps its not the kill)

Dont have the money for falconry (hybrid males are a by-product)

How do i know this.. cause everyone i fly with is man enough to admit, as i am, that hybrids suit todays modern falconer cause were tied up faffing about with other duties

We can no longer dedicate time to our longwings,
We no longer have access to good land (no not local football pitches)
and we lack the field skills that should have been passed to us from the last great falconers

We are a hybrid generation
And all of this was found out by accident

We bred falcons for the arabs that were hybrids,
We didnt tell them this until many years in to the trend of large White Sakers

But the poor males... sold to us english falconers

Now is the case where Many breeding centres are now back logged in Hybrid males, you only have to look at the IBR site to see 2005 untouched GyrXperegrines still for sale..... if there not sold.. where in your fluffy little world do you think there going to end up?

The sooner we ban hybrids the faster the sport will return to only those in the position to do it

If you love Falconry that much you will find a way round it
But you wont be able to fly your gos 3 days a week like your harris

Take up fishing & keep the Reel oiled!


Now those of you that have decent land, and enough time to fly your bird
and consider yourself a "GOOD" falconer

Why do you still fly a hybrid?
Is a pure peregrine not fast enough?

or does not killing every day with your game Hawk make you feel less of a Falconer?


Tinto

[StoopDoggyDogg]

do you know anybody with a spec pitching female peregrine ??

steve




Gyr x Peregrines and some saker x peregrines gain a pitch ,on a hole more readily than Falcons .To the point of making some of there owners thinking their ALL THAT ,only to recieve a kick in the nards when they try to do it with a female peregrine. I think a hybred is very dangerous at a pitch but a female peregrine at a pitch is a force of nature and at the top of her game are only out done by certain eagles coming down from way up there but as were talking about ,or atleast I am ,talking about game hawking ,the game your flying gives the answer to this question ,there more than a little worried when flying a hybred tiercel or even a tiercel peregrine but when a falcons is up there doing it ,they shat them selves and often hold more tightly and often act a little differant. Crows often mob hybreds ,tiercels and eyas falcons but when the falcon gets her attertude deliverd that all stops and clear off soon as they see them open there wings!!

[Natch]

there ant to many round her flying them:idea:

[StoopDoggyDogg]

i bet u fly an harris,

Steve


Every hybrid i have ever had did the job without any imput from me
(we can all swing a pair of wings around!)
The only problems i ever had were due to birds late out the chamber
these took a little more pushing, but made it more of a challenge
Every Gyr X peregrine i have ever had would kill on the first day lose.
You spend a week manning it, throw a dead crow out for another week straight out the hood, then point it at a wild crow, thats not falconry
Thats me with 20 minuites a day spare time wanting to see a bit of action
i kill crows & gulls IN a 40acre field having never done anything more than "Strike the braces"


I would love to see Hybrids & non natives banned just to see what direction people would really go. and if it would clean up falconry
We all know its heading in that direction, its GOING TO HAPPEN
So from this point on, why dont we just By Pure Species

In BRIEF:
If you Buy a Hybrid Falcon you are wasting your money
Those of you flying hyrids, make the most of your time
Those of you breeding Hybrids, Predict the Market!

Tinto

Tinto

[Hawkmaster]

You can stop the swearing and calling of names NOW or you will find yourself on a splinter falconry forum with only half a dozen online members!:twisted:

Come on Play nicely and if you have had too much to drink just read please!

Paul

[Natch]

no i fly a barn owl:supz:

[Falconer1000]

to bring us back to the point, nature invented the peregrine it is the fastest most camable falcon in our country it s top of the food chain an alfa preditor
just as good of the fist as she is from a high pitch,
many years ago groups of falconers would take a number of peregrines (wild caught) up north to scotland 20 for example, they would return with 16
9 would be game hawks,7 would be rook hawks,
these were the days when birds could be taken fromthe wild, we cant do that now we can hack birds but it isn't the same the truth is we do the best we can with what we have the peregrine is a fast and powerful bird, are hybrids any better? god i hope not!

[Matthew Patching]

Quote: “You won’t beat a good female peregrine on rooks”



Cuz if you do it'll start to carry!

[MattSpar]

to bring us back to the point, nature invented the peregrine it is the fastest most camable falcon in our country it s top of the food chain an alfa preditor
just as good of the fist as she is from a high pitch,
many years ago groups of falconers would take a number of peregrines (wild caught) up north to scotland 20 for example, they would return with 16
9 would be game hawks,7 would be rook hawks,
these were the days when birds could be taken fromthe wild, we cant do that now we can hack birds but it isn't the same the truth is we do the best we can with what we have the peregrine is a fast and powerful bird, are hybrids any better? god i hope not!


But speed isn't everything. Far from it.

[Mark Collins]

Tinto, Get down from that horse mate it’s a little to high.

Having started this thread I’d better give my thoughts….

I have access to as near as damit perfect land for rook / crow hawking.
I have enough time to fly my falcon everyday weather permitting.
I can also afford it, obviously the wife can think of better things to spend my wages on.
I choose to fly hybrids and preferably males, because they suit my style of crow hawking more than a peregrine does.

Training wise, I couldn’t say one was any different to the other, same with entering them at crows both are as easy or as hard as fate decides.

I noticed that the “old hawking club” peregrines were mentioned, the old hawking club members did not have the choice of a Hybrid.

So my opinion is, Peregrines are brilliant crow hawks but the hybrid is better for my style of crow hawking.

Hi eznugud, well said , if truth be nown peregrines are easier to train than some hybreds , after all its personal preferance.I have flown lots of hybreds and , about 6 peregrines they all have there place , thats it , its a bit like is agoss better than a harris , its not everybody that has time for a goss, cheers mark.

[BlackFalcon]

Falco Peregrinus Peregrinus, the ultimate game hawk. Nuff said :D

[Terry Hanson]

Falco Peregrinus Peregrinus, the ultimate game hawk. Nuff said :D

Chris, well put. How many folks have trained<great> falcons over the years but have an eyas every year. I thought the process is suppose to get better with time. Or is it that Hawks are too accessible now?<bick razors>
How many guys have 5-6 year old hawks that they trained. Just curious??
Apart from fatality I hope to fly mine for many years to come.

[BlackFalcon]

The female peregrine can take any game we have in the UK in fine style, what more could we need.

[Falconry Equipment International]

The female peregrine can take any game we have in the UK in fine style, what more could we need.

well said and a falcon 'gentle' to boote ( sorry for pun:rolleyes: )

[Eznugud]

The female peregrine can take any game we have in the UK in fine style, what more could we need.

I don’t dispute this, but so can a hybrid……..so what makes the peregrine better?

[Eznugud]

The fact It wasent made by a buck hunting breeder!

BUT AS NATURE INTENDED

Tinto

Tinto.....

just as nature intended your perlin?.......dont preach what you dont sow...

[Hacker]

Unfortunatly nature moves on and all species on this planet will be superseeded by the next generation and that also means the dear old peregrine, once it was a pteradactoyl.
They are all just bricks in the wall of time and it does not matter how good or **** a falconer you are it is something you will never stop.
Maybe the hybrid is the falcon of tommorrow?
Who knows? not you.

[Eznugud]

No my friend you clearly stated that the peregrine it better than the hybrid because…..

“It was not made by a buck hunting breeder! BUT AS NATURE INTENDED”

If you want to voice your opinions on breeders or the calibre of falconers who fly hybrids can I suggest you start a thread relating to the subject…..


Now the point on this thread was to “discuss” why some falconers though that a peregrine was better than a hybrid?
We are getting loads of “peregrine am best bird”……but we are not getting many giving a reason to why peregrine am best bird.

[Berkut]

The fact It wasent made by a buck hunting breeder!

BUT AS NATURE INTENDED

Tinto

Most of these buck hunting breeders as you call them spend many thousands of pounds before they have a chance to make a penny and if it wasn,t for them I know it would seriously affect my own livliehood, as I need hybrids for my business of landfill work. When hybrids were first bred it was a big boon to the small falconry population as there were very few peregrines available.

I used to enjoy reading your posts but you have recently become an opinionated baw sack with a chip on your shoulder.

[Chabich]

Hybrids are for falconers who

The sooner we ban hybrids the faster the sport will return to only those in the position to do it

Tinto

Dear Tinto

I can't help myself but your (extremist?) opinion closely resembles that of some German falconers (!!) that set out to 'voluntarily' get hybrids banned. Unfortunately they were in a position to get the job done and with some help from falconry opponents, who must have p***ed themselves laughing by quasi 'winning the lottery', the law is firmly in place now - Hybrids are banned and it is only a question of time, when the next species is due.
Flying/discussing a hybrid or not is/should be merely a philosophical question among falconers, but is genuine Semptex everywhere, where falconry as a sport itself is under severe public pressure. Such a discussion can and will contribute to get our passion banned: First it's the sparrowhawk, then the hybrids, then the Harris, then the Golden Eagle ... you can refer to this (green) tactic as 'Salami-Tactic' - one slice at a time, and the Salami will be gone eventually and you won't be flying your beloved peregine ever, even if you have enough time and skill, which you said you lack of.
At the end of the day it is the right of choice for falconers to fly the bird they want, that is ultimately essential and important. This is, what e.g. the Hawk Board or the IAF is fighting for and what you should be argueing for in a public forum, instead of handing over some semi-true advice to falconry opponents.

If you don't believe all the above, just look over the borders.

Regards,

Christian

[Venividevenatio]

I believe that the Perigrine in its normal environment has the upper hand.....it has evolved to hunt in vast open spaces. If you look at the hybrids commonly available to UK falconers these can also hunt just as well on the moor and plain, especialy when there is a significant amount of Perigrene blood. I call it the (essential )P Factor !

Although strictly speaking hybrids do not produce a Classic Flight, technicaly there is little difference?

I find that the hybrids come into there own, hunting in more enclosed country. I would loosely define this country, as open fields of a minimum 20 acres. ( An acre is roughly 70yds by 70 yds or 64mtrs by 64mtrs)
A succesful slip usualy needs to be twice the distance from quarry to cover, as there is between point of slip and quarry.

The hybrid certainly does have vigour, and the male and small female hybrids do not intimidate a corvid.
The corvid often does not 'take on ' a female Perigrine in relativly enclosed country, being intimidated by her size. The corvid just bails out to cover or the ground, prefering to defend itself there rather than in a flight, and surely we are looking for a competitive flight, not a mugging?
If that is not possible because of the nature of the country, perhaps consider using a male Gos?

My own (untested) ideal for hunting corvids over relativly enclosed land is a male 1/4Gyr 3/4 Perigrine.
Having said lthat, I have seen more good flights at corvids in enclosed country, from Perigrine /Saker and Gyr/Perigrine X Saker, both friends birds and my own!

It was to this end that I imprinted my female Perigrine, but having seen encouraging potential from the first fortnight of tame hacking, ( and on) and with mind to possible future legislation, I decided to try and breed pure initialy, and then go for my dream hawk!

Well thats put my head above the parapet of this thread, and waiting to be shot. Excellent thread from eznogud!

[Falconer1000]

But speed isn't everything. Far from it.

i agree but there is a reason why the peregrine is a globle species it can and has addapted to suit any enviroment they nest on skyscrapers and mountains, cooling towers and churches they have addapted to urban life and built up areas, someone tell me what can't they do?

don't be silly please

[Matthew Lambert]

As far as the real goal not being the kill I have to say that is nonsense.It does not matter which branch of falconry you practice that IS the main goal(even if only for the birds sake). Style and all the trimmings have to be incidental and we have more chance of enjoying a spectacular flight from a hawk that kills on a very regular basis.
When I go hawking if I didn,t come back with something in the bag I would be very disappointed.If that happens to anyone on a regular basis they are doing something wrong


exactly berkut:supz:

[Matthew Patching]

It does make me weep when a nice steamy stoop from 600+ ends in a bush cause the quary bailed.. Hybrids, the longwinged Harris

God you talk ****! Have you realy ever flown everything, or do you quote from books aswell!

[MattSpar]

The female peregrine can take any game we have in the UK in fine style, what more could we need.

Yes it can, and a ford mondeo can get you around the country in fine style, but it doesn't suit everyone.

[Eznugud]

I agree that the peregrine is a very good bird, but no one can deny that for falconry a hybrid can do everything that the peregrine can do.
I don’t understand “style”……..

Do you know when it boils right down to it and if everyone was truthful I’d like to bet that it comes down to tradition and history.
Flying our “flagship” falcon in the best tradition……walking in the footsteps of Blaine, Fisher, Rutford, Radcliffe and the like……..

[MitchellBrad]

I agree that the peregrine is a very good bird, but no one can deny that for falconry a hybrid can do everything that the peregrine can do.
I don’t understand “style”……..
.

Well said!!! It all depends on what you CHOOSE to fly. I was tossing around this same subject to a friend. Granted we don't fly a lot of the same stuff you guys fly but his comment hit it on the head. "Some of the best birds in falconry today are hybrids." We both choose to fly the purebreds. Nothing more, nothing less.

It's like flying imprints, chamber birds and passagers. There are those who love one of the above and wouldn't fly anything else. All are great in the right hands, people usually settle down with what they are like the best. It is the rare individual who is successful with all 3.
Brad

[Pete Smith]

Hybrids Vs purebred,
Of the more rapacious birds of prey most...[70-80%] don't see their 1st breeding season. From the cross section of responses and my own experiences the owner and probably genetic predisposition / adaptability will make a greater difference in individual performance.
Transmutation of species & natural sellection over millions of years is a pretty extreme filter, the birds we have been left with are proof of their adaptability...excluding the Perlin of course which embodies the further evolution of the raptor species. [This is a alhoholic induced response i might add....Chris I expect a cheque forthwith!]

[Stratocaster]

Regarding style;
I think its in the eye of the observer, if you are happy then thats what matters really.
Personally, having seen and flown a lot of hybrids in the boundaries of
my employment, my personal flying is with peregrines,
the way a conditioned, heavy wingloaded falcon works to take pitch is
great to see, ascent as much a part of the flight as the stoop!
Most of the hybrids I have seen are generally more bouyant, they climb in
powerful and direct manner, the majority we breed tend to use the "climbing outrun" where as generally, most of the peregrines tend toward "ringing" style
of mounting, a huge advantage for controlling winter game during flight management.
Leaving female hybrids out of the equation, talking 3/4 and 7/8 gyr sakers,
I personally feel the males flown at game, making similar flying wieght to
a female peregrine, although they can and do take awesome pitches, it
does seem to be wasted more often than not in its delivery.
Put a peregrine in the same position and the result is usually spectacular,
they definately pack a harder punch IMHO.
I have worked with these falcons for the last twelve years or so and have
intermewed a good few of them.
Given a choice, personally for me it would be a peregrine, matched to quarry
every time.

Pics are yesterdays flight with Jasmine, my peregrine, well deserved for her.
The white bird is last years 7/8ths gyr/saker male from earlier in the season.

Hope everyone has a good christmas and new year.
Regards Mike.

[Berkut]

Regarding style;
I think its in the eye of the observer, if you are happy then thats what matters really.
Personally, having seen and flown a lot of hybrids in the boundaries of
my employment, my personal flying is with peregrines,
the way a conditioned, heavy wingloaded falcon works to take pitch is
great to see, ascent as much a part of the flight as the stoop!
Most of the hybrids I have seen are generally more bouyant, they climb in
powerful and direct manner, the majority we breed tend to use the "climbing outrun" where as generally, most of the peregrines tend toward "ringing" style
of mounting, a huge advantage for controlling winter game during flight management.
Leaving female hybrids out of the equation, talking 3/4 and 7/8 gyr sakers,
I personally feel the males flown at game, making similar flying wieght to
a female peregrine, although they can and do take awesome pitches, it
does seem to be wasted more often than not in its delivery.
Put a peregrine in the same position and the result is usually spectacular,
they definately pack a harder punch IMHO.
I have worked with these falcons for the last twelve years or so and have
intermewed a good few of them.
Given a choice, personally for me it would be a peregrine, matched to quarry
every time.

Pics are yesterdays flight with Jasmine, my peregrine, well deserved for her.
The white bird is last years 7/8ths gyr/saker male from earlier in the season.

Hope everyone has a good christmas and new year.
Regards Mike.

A refreshing post Mike .All the best for Christmas and 2007.
Regards,
Neil.

[Terry Hanson]

Regarding style;
I think its in the eye of the observer, if you are happy then thats what matters really.
Personally, having seen and flown a lot of hybrids in the boundaries of
my employment, my personal flying is with peregrines,
the way a conditioned, heavy wingloaded falcon works to take pitch is
great to see, ascent as much a part of the flight as the stoop!
Most of the hybrids I have seen are generally more bouyant, they climb in
powerful and direct manner, the majority we breed tend to use the "climbing outrun" where as generally, most of the peregrines tend toward "ringing" style
of mounting, a huge advantage for controlling winter game during flight management.
Leaving female hybrids out of the equation, talking 3/4 and 7/8 gyr sakers,
I personally feel the males flown at game, making similar flying wieght to
a female peregrine, although they can and do take awesome pitches, it
does seem to be wasted more often than not in its delivery.
Put a peregrine in the same position and the result is usually spectacular,
they definately pack a harder punch IMHO.
I have worked with these falcons for the last twelve years or so and have
intermewed a good few of them.
Given a choice, personally for me it would be a peregrine, matched to quarry
every time.

Pics are yesterdays flight with Jasmine, my peregrine, well deserved for her.
The white bird is last years 7/8ths gyr/saker male from earlier in the season.

Hope everyone has a good christmas and new year.
Regards Mike.

Nice pictures Mike, have a good xmas and new year.
Regards
Terry

[Falconry Equipment International]

Regarding style;
I think its in the eye of the observer, if you are happy then thats what matters really.
Personally, having seen and flown a lot of hybrids in the boundaries of
my employment, my personal flying is with peregrines,
the way a conditioned, heavy wingloaded falcon works to take pitch is
great to see, ascent as much a part of the flight as the stoop!
Most of the hybrids I have seen are generally more bouyant, they climb in
powerful and direct manner, the majority we breed tend to use the "climbing outrun" where as generally, most of the peregrines tend toward "ringing" style
of mounting, a huge advantage for controlling winter game during flight management.
Hope everyone has a good christmas and new year.
Regards Mike.
Mike this is exactly what I have extoled for years and few folk seem to undertsand why i am obsessed with a certain style, clippy wing beats , ringing gaining pitch if possible and when I flush/ the dog flushes on command, the falcon stoops with such commitement, ie the whole flight from the hawk leaving the fist to gaining the hawk back on your fist. does this make sense? merry christmas to you and others

[Stratocaster]

Perfect sense Julian.

All the best, Mike.

[Peregrine1]

Regarding style;
I think its in the eye of the observer, if you are happy then thats what matters really.
Personally, having seen and flown a lot of hybrids in the boundaries of
my employment, my personal flying is with peregrines,
the way a conditioned, heavy wingloaded falcon works to take pitch is
great to see, ascent as much a part of the flight as the stoop!
Most of the hybrids I have seen are generally more bouyant, they climb in
powerful and direct manner, the majority we breed tend to use the "climbing outrun" where as generally, most of the peregrines tend toward "ringing" style
of mounting, a huge advantage for controlling winter game during flight management.
Leaving female hybrids out of the equation, talking 3/4 and 7/8 gyr sakers,
I personally feel the males flown at game, making similar flying wieght to
a female peregrine, although they can and do take awesome pitches, it
does seem to be wasted more often than not in its delivery.
Put a peregrine in the same position and the result is usually spectacular,
they definately pack a harder punch IMHO.
I have worked with these falcons for the last twelve years or so and have
intermewed a good few of them.
Given a choice, personally for me it would be a peregrine, matched to quarry
every time.

Pics are yesterdays flight with Jasmine, my peregrine, well deserved for her.
The white bird is last years 7/8ths gyr/saker male from earlier in the season.

Hope everyone has a good christmas and new year.
Regards Mike.

Hello Mike
Good post, nice to see Jasmine is still going well, I hope she keeps it up for the rest of the season and the weather is kind. All the best for the festivities.
Regards
Colin

[Alf]

I am no falcon expert far from it but I have seen a few good falcons both hybrids and strait peregrines perform and from my point of view nothing comes down quite like a peregrine they just well in my eyes at least exude the gift! Alf.

[MitchellBrad]

I am no falcon expert far from it but I have seen a few good falcons both hybrids and strait peregrines perform and from my point of view nothing comes down quite like a peregrine they just well in my eyes at least exude the gift! Alf.

Alf, I'm 100% with you on this one. But and it's a big but I've learned over the years a lot of people see different things in the stoop of a falcon. Some see blistering speed, a few notice how the falcon prepares herself for the strike using her knowledge of that quarry to set it up and others only see the hit ie how hard and measure a lot by the kill. The peregrine can almost be a ballerina where as this gyr of mine looks like someone rolled a locomotive out the back of a cargo plane.

Brad

[Alf]

Like that description Brad had a giggle at that! :cool:


The peregrine can almost be a ballerina where as this gyr of mine looks like someone rolled a locomotive out the back of a cargo plane.

Brad

[MitchellBrad]

Like that description Brad had a giggle at that! :cool:

I think it was pretty accurate. There is no finesse to her coming down. She's big, fast and pussy foots just about everything except she's getting a little better this year and has dropped some things. Anyway her forte isn't the stoop, never has been. It's the tailchase which is unfortunate for me because sometimes I get more exercise than planned:roll:

To be honest I love peregrines but a lot of falconers feel the same about their hybrids. So who am I to judge except I do get the occasional rib in from time to time. One guy got upset when we both caught roosters one day after I told him, "Look at this beautiful rooster my falcon caught. It's a shame your hybrid had to do that to such a gorgeous bird." We are still friends and he gets me every chance he gets:yawinkle:

Merry Christmas Alf.

Brad

[Richard]

I think the only people who can voice a quality opinion can be people who have flown both a pure peregrine and various hybrids.

I can't say whats better at what as im a young'n :rolleyes:

All i say is look up what the peregrines staple diet is in most area's they live in, and compare it to what we hawk.

Hybrids offer us the best of both worlds so to speak, so that we can go about practicing falconry in an enviroment that suits the bird ASWELL as the bird?

[Alf]

Have a cracking Christmas you and your family mate. Alf.


I think it was pretty accurate. There is no finesse to her coming down. She's big, fast and pussy foots just about everything except she's getting a little better this year and has dropped some things. Anyway her forte isn't the stoop, never has been. It's the tailchase which is unfortunate for me because sometimes I get more exercise than planned:roll:

To be honest I love peregrines but a lot of falconers feel the same about their hybrids. So who am I to judge except I do get the occasional rib in from time to time. One guy got upset when we both caught roosters one day after I told him, "Look at this beautiful rooster my falcon caught. It's a shame your hybrid had to do that to such a gorgeous bird." We are still friends and he gets me every chance he gets:yawinkle:

Merry Christmas Alf.

Brad

[Falconry Equipment International]

Have a cracking Christmas you and your family mate. Alf.

I second that, sorry Brad have been meaning to speak to you for ages , finally got to read your piece... get writing mate :yawinkle:

[MitchellBrad]

I second that,

You too Julian.

Wife's been ******** at me for keeping the gyr in an extra room we have. Had to move her back into a mews today. Little does she know as soon as everything is back to normal back goes the gyr:)

Brad

[Falconry Equipment International]

:lol: Brad you take care will speak soon ( I have skype now, just have to find your number:oops: :roll: all the very best my friend

[MitchellBrad]

:lol: Brad you take care will speak soon ( I have skype now, just have to find your number:oops: :roll: all the very best my friend

You too Julian. Just cleaned up that spare room to my wife's satisfaction. Scrubbed carpet and anything else she ordered:) Now I gotta find the brandy and put the grill on to cook up some pheasant.

Brad

[Sokoly]

Wow this tread turned us amongs each other. Tintoro, I completely understand what are you trying to say. Yes this world has gone crazy my friend but trust me we cannot stop it. Instead of keeping a centuries old sport-art alive we turn into blood thirsty "falconers" that always are goinig for a kill with our newly geneticaly modified birds.(hybreds) Have you questioned your selfes where is this leading to? No you are always thinking on how quick and how many a head your nice looking (maybe soon we will see a UV coloured falcons) kill.You have all forgotten that what nature makes is the BEST without comparisons. I am speaking long therm and ecologicaly safe. Yes hybreds are bigger and maybe more colourfull but what is the point of hunting an anthelope with a falcon????? Is it natural? Or it's just some idea of a person who can afford it to make a hybred that their character is ruined and it's not a peregrine but it's still not a gyr.Do you realise that this birds loose their integrity, they are confused of what they are?:-))
It's a shame our most precious life style - falconry has gotten out of the tracks. People are thirsty for something more colourful and somethig that could tackle a bigger quorry. We have lost the sence of nature and we will soon end up with everything hybredized around us.Soon the day will come when we will show the natural "diamonds" to our kids on the fotografs or in the books. Why, maybe some of you know the answer? I am still a believer so I keep pure breds. I am completelly satisfied with what they hunt and the style they hunt it. If you want to go on a killing spree by a machine gun.The point of this art-sport is to go out in nature, take a decant walk, fly your bird and if there is a good oportunity see it catch something. If you catch every time it will sooner bore you. If sometimes your bird is really zclose but it still misses the quarry it will make you and your bird more eager to go out the next day.The day when she is succesfull you will remember it very well, you will not have this wanderfull oportunity if you fly a machine gun that is very rearly missing.It's a childish game to be succesfull in every second attempt. Grow up.Be a man and face it that sometimes some quarry is predetermined to survive and leave some offspring on this planet.
I just felt that I should say what is my opinion on the subject, I clearly understand that many people will not agree with my point of view but I will be happy if they just read it and maybe one day it will cross their mind.
All the best to everybody, Have a Marry Christmass-Sokoly

[MitchellBrad]

I just felt that I should say what is my opinion on the subject, I clearly understand that many people will not agree with my point of view but I will be happy if they just read it and maybe one day it will cross their mind.
All the best to everybody, Have a Marry Christmass-Sokoly

That's a nice post. I read it. :)

Let me give you an example. My hawking buddy flys a gyr/peregrine in her 17th season. Back when she was younger she would slaughter quarry, mostly pheasants. He flew her at a few sharptails and cremated them. Once she bound to a sharptail, it's head went down and never wiggled again. Thus he measures a lot of what he sees in falconry by that bird and her accomplishments. On the other hand he sees my gyr fly and often makes the comment, "She's so big why doesn't she hit hard enough to kill the quarry in the air?" My comment is always, "She's a passage gyr and makes kills the way she knows will lead to no damage to herself. She's doing it her way." He's seen her make a few kills by punching but most of the time she pussy foots something then chases it to cover. Sometimes she makes a kill but with pheasants they often run off. If she gets a chance in the open with at least 1/4 mile before cover she's going to kill it. I often say, "enjoy it for what it is, not what you think it should be." In the wild she wouldn't be chasing those things while a coyote points them. She'd be picking out waterfowl from a perch and flying it down.

Brad

Brad

[Matthew Patching]

I just felt that I should say what is my opinion on the subject, I clearly understand that many people will not agree with my point of view but I will be happy if they just read it and maybe one day it will cross their mind.
All the best to everybody, Have a Marry Christmass-Sokoly

I have also read your post, Alot of what you say makes pure sense, but not all hybreds have the upper hand, I think that some of the smaller hybreds flown at corvids struggle just as much as tercels.

I do have one thing to say on flying birds at gazzelles. This is a flight that was never intended for 'Hybrids' the arabs have been flying gazzelles for millennia with passage sakers they were doing this before the word hybred or trybred was even invented. Yes they do now use hybrids for this flight but only because they have them avaliable.

I also want to say that the biggest sakeret that I have ever seen hunted pheasant at 1lb 15oz and his sisters flew at a massive 2lb8-10, I havnt come across a gyrxsaker that matches this yet!

[Eznugud]

Sokoly

I have also read your post.
Looking at your profile it says you didn’t start with falconry until 2000, this means you have not known falconry without hybrids.
You also seem to be tarring all falconers that fly hybrids with the same brush “blood thirsty falconers”.

This thread was never meant to get into the ethics of hybridisation, it was simply to discuss if a hybrid was a better bird for hunting rooks than a female peregrine.
It is a question that can never be answered, well it can be answered but will never be agreed upon.

I like a lot more who use this forum have known falconry without hybrids, I personally like having hybrids.
When I first flew a hybrid they were very new, in fact AI was in its infancy.
I flew a hybrid because it was something different, a new challenge; I had no idea what it was going to be like.
After flying peregrines at crows it was like a breath of fresh air having a hybrid, I don’t have a larger head count at the end of the season with a hybrid, I only every catch 1 crow {per day}…I do have a smaller slip / kill ratio with a hybrid.

A lot of people give it the “you can’t improve on nature” quote, rubbish of course you can.
Stick a pair of football boots on to kick a ball and you have improved on nature.
I don’t know if we have improved on the peregrine but we have certainly matched it.

[MitchellBrad]

Sokoly

I have also read your post.
Looking at your profile it says you didn’t start with falconry until 2000, this means you have not known falconry without hybrids.
You also seem to be tarring all falconers that fly hybrids with the same brush “blood thirsty falconers”.

This thread was never meant to get into the ethics of hybridisation, it was simply to discuss if a hybrid was a better bird for hunting rooks than a female peregrine.
It is a question that can never be answered, well it can be answered but will never be agreed upon.

I like a lot more who use this forum have known falconry without hybrids, I personally like having hybrids.
When I first flew a hybrid they were very new, in fact AI was in its infancy.
I flew a hybrid because it was something different, a new challenge; I had no idea what it was going to be like.
After flying peregrines at crows it was like a breath of fresh air having a hybrid, I don’t have a larger head count at the end of the season with a hybrid, I only every catch 1 crow {per day}…I do have a smaller slip / kill ratio with a hybrid.

A lot of people give it the “you can’t improve on nature” quote, rubbish of course you can.
Stick a pair of football boots on to kick a ball and you have improved on nature.
I don’t know if we have improved on the peregrine but we have certainly matched it.

Hey guys. It doesn't matter if we as humans can improve upon old Mom Nature or not, it's whatever trips your trigger. I choose to fly the purebreds but I've had a lot of fun with the hybrids. It isn't an ego thing with me. Rather it's that I kinda think I'd be cheating if I flew a hybrid at the game I have here. There will always be those who look down upon the hybrid as there will be those who look down upon the purebreds. Does it matter? We are all in this together:)

Hey, I had one Hell of a great flight tonight that didn't end in a kill. The gyr took one great pitch, a little speck. Flushed a grouse and down the old gal came. She tagged it and off they went. She came back and was called to the fist. Life is good. And when she climbed with her head down watching her grounded companion walking towards the expected quarry. It was as neat as I could imagine.

Incidentally I don't keep a log of kills. Rather I prefer to remember each flight as something unique.

Brad

[Sokoly]

Sokoly

I have also read your post.
Looking at your profile it says you didn’t start with falconry until 2000, this means you have not known falconry without hybrids.
You also seem to be tarring all falconers that fly hybrids with the same brush “blood thirsty falconers”.

A lot of people give it the “you can’t improve on nature” quote, rubbish of course you can.
Stick a pair of football boots on to kick a ball and you have improved on nature.
I don’t know if we have improved on the peregrine but we have certainly matched it.

Eznugud thanks for your reply,it's true I started falconry in 2000 but unfortunatelly in Macedoinia there are no breeders so there are no hybreds neither homepurebreds untill recently when we received a kind donation of an Austrian breeder. We fly passangers. In 2004 I had an oportunity to work on a huge falconfarm in Dubai where many sorts of hybreds were produced. I worked with 3/4, 7/8- and hybreds between species from a different parts of the world.My feeling is that the hybreds don't have this spark in their eyes as the purebreds. No, I don't want anybody to agree or desagree on this with me -it's just my opinion. In my eyes the gorgeous, powerfull hybreds lack the proud unbreakable character of a purebred. They are a mix of two different integritys.Sometimes I got this feeling that they don't belong to a certain identity.And they know it.Maybe this is my philosophical opinion but it;s just the way I see things. I dont'want to offend anybody that works with hybreds, they are a good business anyway.And as long they sell the demand is there and the production will go on.When I said "blood thursty falconers" I just wanted to tickle every one of us and remind us of what falconry is all about. It is not just to come back home with a bag full of quarry. In the past it was a way of optaining food for the table, nowadays I dout it that somebody relies on falconry as a sort of food providing activity.It's the flight, the pitch,the stoop and the hit we should enjoy.Not just the kill, after all we are not that hungry falconers are we? Yes its the culmination of all the thing called falconry but it's not the thing we should judge about.Sometimes I have seen stoops that make your eyes watter and they end up without the finnal kill but they are deeply remembered. Yes the comlete ones are even better but what if every hunt is a kill? There is no beauty of differense than.I agree that with some hybreds we make falconers out of people who don't deserve to call themselfes so. By doing this we dig the fundaments we should strive to keep strong and breed in ourselves. When you mention that when you put on the football boots you improve nature is not at all as massing up with pairing up two species. Very much different putting shoes and giving life to something that will be intendent to live it's life in a state of mind that maybe it's owner will never get the chance to understand because "he only cares about the bag full".
Yes perhaps everybody will like to be succesful falconer, but do it the hard way, do it the real way.Don't go on a killing spree with the killing machines somebody earlier called the hybreds. Leave some of the quarry to produce some offspring and continue the next generation.Please don't get me wrong all of you keeping hybreds. Perhaps if i was in a position you all are I would have gone with a hybred. But I am proud and lucky to stick with the natures diamond of the sky.Not some breeders produced genetic make up of two.
All the best Sokoly,