Specialist Avian Vets

[Bois le duc]

Hi

I was wondering what makes a vet a specialist avian vet?

My own vet has been in common practice for over 35 yrs and has treat hundreds of BOP but does not, nor would not class himself as a "specialist Avian vet".

If i am looking for a good Local "specialist vet" for my bird what criteria should i see fulfilled?

How long qualified?

How long in Practice?

How many BOP have they cured?

How many BOP have they killed in treatment:confused: ?

Thanks

[Kentish Falconry]

Hi

I was wondering what makes a vet a specialist avian vet?

My own vet has been in common practice for over 35 yrs and has treat hundreds of BOP but does not, nor would not class himself as a "specialist Avian vet".

If i am looking for a good Local "specialist vet" for my bird what criteria should i see fulfilled?

How long qualified?

How long in Practice?

How many BOP have they cured?

How many BOP have they killed in treatment:confused: ?

Thanks

Hi we keep a list of compitent Avian Vets, where are you exactly then possibly we can point you in the right direction
Terry

[OutFlying]

Hi

I was wondering what makes a vet a specialist avian vet?




For some vets it means sticking two extra zeros on your bill - but for a poor service.

[Talon]

For some vets it means sticking two extra zeros on your bill - but for a poor service.

never a truer word spoken.

[Jack]

Let me tell you about avian trained vets. They get books about BOP's and study them. You could do the same. The books might be a bit expensive, but you are just as capable of studying them as anyone else is. I had a small hybrid tiercel die of Asper. Or so the diagnosis said. Only it turns out that it was an old pox infection flaring up after 2 years and after a week of horrible suffering he died of gangrene. He was being treated for Asper. When they have no clues, it is asper. I called a local avian vet and told him I had an emergency, my bird was really sick. His response was, well, good luck. Then he had to go. I wanted to bring him in, but he didn't want to deal with it. I have trained myself in the care of my own birds. I can diagnos most all of the ailments with the exception of virus. I also keep a small pharmacy to treat my own birds. I bought myself a cheap microscope and have learned to do all my own fecal exams. I do a fecal every 3 or 4 months. If I do not have what I need I will then ask a local vet for it or a prescription for it. He is good enough to do that for me. He is an honest man, and he told me that when it comes to hawks and falcons, I know vastly more than he does, because he knows absolutely nothing. And he told me that the vast majority of vets don't know as much as I do about them. That makes me a bit worried about taking my hawk to a vet. And if I ever do use another vet for my hawks, I will quickly second guess him or speak up when I think he is wrong. Had I done so my little hybrid might still be with me.

Jack

[Sprout]

Hi

I was wondering what makes a vet a specialist avian vet?

My own vet has been in common practice for over 35 yrs and has treat hundreds of BOP but does not, nor would not class himself as a "specialist Avian vet".

If i am looking for a good Local "specialist vet" for my bird what criteria should i see fulfilled?

How long qualified?

How long in Practice?

How many BOP have they cured?

How many BOP have they killed in treatment:confused: ?

Thanks

There is a European College Diploma for avian medicine - if they have that they are well qualified!! There are also similar qualifications available in the U.S.

[Kitana]

Let me tell you about avian trained vets. They get books about BOP's and study them. You could do the same. The books might be a bit expensive, but you are just as capable of studying them as anyone else is.

Oh my goodness... If that is what you have available as a avian vet, I would stay very very far away from that kind of competence. That's a joke.

There are boards of specialists both in the UK and America that certifies the competence of an avian vet. For a vet to be legally called a specialist, he has to do 4 more years at university in exotic animal medicine after getting the DVM. 4 more years of studies, of lectures, research, practice. Not buy a book and read it.

True Board Certified avian vets are specialists and know much more than you would ever imagine possible about BoPs. I studied with 2 of them, 1 who deals with many exotic species and 1 who does only BoP, nothing else since 1989 and the depth of their knowledge still amazes me.

[GregMik]

The Raptor Center does internships, is this part of the certification?....Speaking of....Heard anything Sprout?

Greg

[Kitana]

Internships of 1 year are the first step toward obtaining a speciality degree. A graduated veterinarian has to do 1 year of internship (or 2 years of practice in a large animal hospital with a heavy caseload), in order to be accepted for the 3 years zoological medicine residency program. So it adds 4 to 5 years to the curriculum.

[Bois le duc]

My original question was posted out of a career interest and also a little out of distrust?

I had a very good Peregrine killed by a vet who basically used my bird as a testing ground to his lack of knowledge and experience..

I am led to believe that in the UK degree vet courses, very little is actually done with students on birds at university level (unless someone can tell me i am wrong?)

I know what little on birds is covered,and the topic bird is usually hens.

I have read several specialist books written by avian guru's (forbes, cooper, etc)and suppose i have to agree with "Jack" when it comes to actual experienced avain vets, a lot of wool can be pulled over ones eye's by those vets who wish to charge a little extra or court business by posing as specialists!

Becoming a vet must be very much like any job, the longer you do it the better you get?

So the first question i suppose i would ask any vet is: How long have you been qualified?

I know some falconers will travel miles to see the likes of experienced expert like Niel Forbes (and quite rightly so) and then some who will believe what a bloke down the pub tells them (or even one on a forum like this?) as long as it's cheap and convenient.

I personally was just interested what "Benchmark" others considered made a "Specilaist" avian vet?

Terry: thanks for your interest, i use what i already consider to be a competant vet who is already on your list.:supz:

Kitana and Outflying: yes they certainly know how to charge:-x

[Kitana]

I am led to believe that in the UK degree vet courses, very little is actually done with students on birds at university level (unless someone can tell me i am wrong?)

I know what little on birds is covered,and the topic bird is usually hens.

I don't know about the UK, but here in Québec the university of Montréal have changed the curriculum 8 years ago to include exotic animals in the basic curriculum. So before that, vets who wanted some knowledge with birds other than poultry had to take optionnal courses.


Becoming a vet must be very much like any job, the longer you do it the better you get?

So the first question i suppose i would ask any vet is: How long have you been qualified?

It is proven that in veterinary medicine, every 2 years, half of the knowledge learned has become completely outdated. Every 2 years! That's an enormous amount of information to digest and it deeply affect the way we work, the way we react to situations. Continuous education is obligatory to be legally able to practice vet medicine, but I know many, many "old" vets (and younger ones) that do not care about it, they "do their hours" and fill out the formularies necessary to receive the CE credits but do not modify at all the way they practice, they do not integrate this knowledge to their everyday practice. They are led to believe that their experience is good, that because it worked before it will work again, but they are soooooo wrong.
I am a vet, and I have a profound distrust for so-called "experienced" vets, I see what they do on a regular basis when I have to undo their errors and I would never ever let one of them touch my dog or cats, let alone a BoP! But as a regular client, it is very, very difficult, almost impossible in fact, to distinguish between a knowledgeable vet and one that is very people-oriented and will tell you exactly what you wanna hear but doesn't have a bit of knowledge... A board-certified vet is better when you have a rare species or if you are faced with a rare disease, because they are evaluated by their peers on a daily basis and have to present lectures at congresses and be very up-to-date on medical knowledge. Books are quickly outdated, even when they were written by the best specialist available. Peer-reviewed articles in renowned scientific publications are wayyyyy better than books.

[Bois le duc]

I hear where your coming from Kitana,

How long have you been qualified and what birds do you fly?

[Sprout]

As Kitana says, veterinary medicine is a bit like falconry - you learn constantly, never stop learning and (hopefully) improving. In the U.K we are taught NOTHING about BOP's, I think we had ONE lecture on avian physiology and anatomy and 4 lectures on poultry disease. Most vets will admit their inadequacies and offer a referral to a specialist (RCVS guideline forces them to do this if operating outside their sphere of experience) - however, like most specialists (in all fields) you will pay for it!! If your vets doesn't know what he is doing and admits his inexperience then if the bird dies don't blame the vet - it is your responsibility and yours only to provide the best possible care for your hawk, if that means travelling miles to someone experienced then so be it!! Source a good vet before you get a bird, not in the middle of the night after an accident!
Personally most of my experience avian wise is self taught, but I have a VERY good experienced avian vet of 30 years experience just down the road who helps me out and I have also spent time with Neil Forbes. However you only learn so much by watching others, as with most things experience is the best teacher. I have an agreement with several rehabilitators and falconers, ALL know my limitations and I honestly tell them what I can and can't do. Falconers bringing their own birds to me are dealt with honestly, if I can treat it I will, if I cam't I refer them and go with them to the experienced vet so I can learn as well! Wild birds I treat for free, even almost hopeless cases (read my spar thread) where other vets would just euthanase them - and I am getting good success. It may not be 100% morally correct "practising" on wild injured birds but it is the only way to learn, and at least they are given some chance rather than no chance. However, I am very practically minded - in my book, if a WILD bird is unreleasable then it is euthanased.
My future plans are to work at either Minnesota or one of the Middle East falcon hospitals before coming back and dislodging Neil Forbes as the god of avian medicine!!!!

[Sprout]

An idea of whether to trust your vet is whether they fly birds too - it gives some indication that they may comprehend where you are coming from. One of the best avian vets in the world (not naming them) is not a falconer, he may get the bird better but he doesn;t understand feather maintenance, so even if the bird is better, it needs to be moulted before flying again!!

[GregMik]

My future plans are to work at either Minnesota or one of the Middle East falcon hospitals before coming back and dislodging Neil Forbes as the god of avian medicine!!!!

Can't wait to see ya Sprout....Got your application in? Want me to have a word with Pat?:yawinkle:

Greg

[Kitana]

How long have you been qualified and what birds do you fly?

I was graduated in 2004 and I plan to get my first bird next season. I am just like Sprout, not a specialist at all but I am the only vet in a 600km radius with knowledge about exotic animals so I tell my clients about my limitations and I refer them when I cannot help. I did a 6 weeks intensive internship in a large raptor rehab center with many specialized vets while I was at university and it really opened my eyes.
It's easy for anyone to take a recipe in a book and apply it, but understanding what is going on in the bird and what factors can have an effect on the outcome and on the approach are not learned in books, they come from working with the animals and going to many hours of conferences and congress with the best. Saying that a falconer has better knowledge than an avian vet is soo wrong, it is just like saying a dog breeder knows more than a vet... Yes falconers and dog breeders have seen many sick animals, but a vet sees a huge lot more and has a deep knowledge of the pathophysiology of diseases, comparisons are not possible.
Humans tend to generalize easily... A falconer that has seen 7-8 cases of bumblefoot in his life thinks he knows everything about bumblefoot... When you treat 7-8 cases of bumblefoot a week, then you understand that you know nothing and are always learning...

[Sprout]

My original question was posted out of a career interest and also a little out of distrust?

I had a very good Peregrine killed by a vet who basically used my bird as a testing ground to his lack of knowledge and experience..



If you have a good local vet of 35 years experience why did you trust someone with no experience who you did not know?? Unfortunately Vets are only human and no-one knows everything, whether we have experience in a particular field or not we aim to do what we can to help in an emergency situation. Most vets are terrified of birds (not literally - just they admittedly know almost nothing) and will admit their inadequacies, if you decline this admittance and insist they treat your bird and things go wrong then the blame lays squarely at your feet.
As I said, no one is perfect. I've been let down by people too in the past when I've sought help, relying on their more experienced "professional" advice and its gone fatally wrong!
If you want the best for your charge, you will have to travel for it (I still use Neil Forbes if my bird isn't 100% and I can't work it out), might be an expensive trip if you live the opposite end of the country!! but if you value your birds it is worth going that extra mile.

[Harris]

I think its important that I learn as much about what makes my birds tick as I possibly can, that way, when I need a vet, at least I can express what I think is wrong and have an idea of what the vet can do for me. For example, when I recently took my bird to the vet with suspected wing tip oedema, I knew what medication was considered to give the best results. So when he told me he had ordered some Navilox just in case, this gave me confidence in him.

[Bois le duc]

Sprout: the vet i used who killed my bird was a very well known avian vet in Harrogate, the instance was some time ago (20yrs) when he was still learning (at my expense)

I am well aware of my moral obligations and duties toward the bird in my care, but thanks for pointing them out:roll:

I both applaud folks like you who are here to offer help and advice to beginners and am appauled that just because you wear a badge that says "Vet" you feel you can point out facts that many of us are more than aware of, and feel slightly offended by your attitude and approach to some members?

I respect the great amount of training and preporation you face to undergo your career, but am painfully aware of your inadequecies when it comes to real knowledge and experience in this field, and i humbly ask you to consider that there might be some folks out there whom dont posses any badges or formal training, but may know even more than you do by virtue of life experience? it might be interesting to see BEN C's comments about BOP medicines practiced in Pakistan? so it may pay to keep an open mind sometimes?

Dont take this the wrong way, i as a new member and more than aware from reading your threads of how much good you try do on this forum and thanks are in order, but occasionally i am shocked:eek: at your attitude toward some members who appear to encroach on your particular area of expertise (Jack springs to mind)!

My whole point on this thread was to point out that VET doesnt always mean COMPETANT....

Please, please dont take offense and read this post in the spirit it was made:goodman:

I applaud the efforts you are making to learn and see no ethical problems with honing your art on wild disabled birds that otherwise would have zero chance of survival, How long have you been qualified? How long will you have to study as an intern in the USA?

Kitana: i fully agree that falconers tend to generalize certain illness or injuries and 7 cases of bumble foot doesnt make an expert, but on the opposing side of the coin, look at what wonder drugs and treatments have materilized by accident in BOP treatments from such circumstance ?

Equally, do you think the owner of a large breeding establishment or public centre, housing say 300 birds might get more knowledge and experience than someone such as yourself on a weekly basis?

It's obviously in their interest to know their stuff and a basic medical knowledge could serve them quite well as a starting point for their education.

Harris has just presented a great example of the fact that some knowledge is prefferable to non at all.

(incidentally, if i were seeing several cases of bumble foot per week, i would have a stark chat about husbandry and hygene with the owners LOL)

I wish you every success with your first bird,

What bird do you intend to start with? (RTH) i presume!

Harris: good man! how the bird doing now?

[Sprout]

I am well aware of my moral obligations and duties toward the bird in my care, but thanks for pointing them out:roll:

I both applaud folks like you who are here to offer help and advice to beginners and am appauled that just because you wear a badge that says "Vet" you feel you can point out facts that many of us are more than aware of, and feel slightly offended by your attitude and approach to some members?

I respect the great amount of training and preporation you face to undergo your career, but am painfully aware of your inadequecies when it comes to real knowledge and experience in this field, and i humbly ask you to consider that there might be some folks out there whom dont posses any badges or formal training, but may know even more than you do by virtue of life experience? it might be interesting to see BEN C's comments about BOP medicines practiced in Pakistan? so it may pay to keep an open mind sometimes?

Dont take this the wrong way, i as a new member and more than aware from reading your threads of how much good you try do on this forum and thanks are in order, but occasionally i am shocked:eek: at your attitude toward some members who appear to encroach on your particular area of expertise (Jack springs to mind)!

My whole point on this thread was to point out that VET doesnt always mean COMPETANT....



No offense taken at all, thanks for your reply. I am only too aware of my limitations, and openly profess to them - if you read more of my posts you will see most start by advising to see a qualified experienced avian vet, not rely on my opinion (which will be flawed by nature of not having the bird in front of me and the fact that there are many out there far more experienced than me). I apologise if you thought I was having an attack at you, pointing out moral duties - you have obviously spent the time to source (and I guess probably help train through experience) your local vet, however, a lot of people don't - you should read my inbox!! the amount of PM's I get asking for help from people who don;t have a vet or don't know how to find one. My point was not aimed at you but just a warning for people to get a good vet sourced BRFORE they need one.
My mind is always open, at the beginning of my career I am learning all the time and realise I have an infinite amount more to still learn. Avian medicine is the fastest growing area of veterinary medicine, so even the experts are still learning!!
I am a little disappointed you feel I have been harsh with people like Jack. Unfortunately some people do have a closed mind and do profess themselves to being an expert in EVERY field. When someones entire advice is to reduce a birds weight (whatever the problem) alarm bells start ringing with me. If all it took was a cheap microscope to become an expert in avian medicine then why do vets spend thousands paying out for endoscopes, xray machines, blood biochemistry analysers, stains etc etc?? Yes it is personal with Jack and I make no apologies for that, I find his posts dangerous and hopefully if you have read them for what they are you should realise this too.

[MickeyDredd]

Sprout: the vet i used who killed my bird was a very well known avian vet in Harrogate, the instance was some time ago (20yrs) when he was still learning (at my expense)

I suppose one would have to take into account that 20 years ago there would be very little avian expertise in the veterinary world and at that time most vets would be learning as they went along on the very few raptors which came into their practise. Also, whilst I dont know the circumstances of you bird's demise, the new medicines/anaesthetics available as you mentioned in your post would not have been available back then. I take it you are a man to bear a grudge :D


Dont take this the wrong way, i as a new member and more than aware from reading your threads of how much good you try do on this forum and thanks are in order.

its nice to see that you have taken the time to read many threads in the couple of days you have been a member, i wish more new members would take the time to do so, it would save a lot of time going over the same old stuff.
Welcome to the forum, you obviously have a number of years of falconry under your belt and i look forward to seeing more of your posts.


Regards
Face d'eouff

[Bois le duc]

Hi Sprout,

Thanx for the reply and glad that it isnt personal,

You didnt tell us how long you have been qualified? and which part of the country you practise? or what birds you fly?

I obviously agree weight drop isnt the answer to all that ails, but in jacks defense i have used pepto bismol personally for sour crop and found it remarkably effective??

You mention a cheap microscope to become an expert in avian medicine, what could we use that for effectivley?

I here what your saying about self professed experts too! they know all about dogs, falconry, hawks, avian medicine etc, etc LOL many of them hardly out of school:lol:

Take care mate and look forwards to hearing all about your experience and experiences;)

Mickey dredd: i have been reading the forum now for a number of years, just chose never to post and i am fairly well informed thanks so i hope we have some things in common to share for everyones benefit?

[Sprout]

Hi Sprout,

Thanx for the reply and glad that it isnt personal,

You didnt tell us how long you have been qualified? and which part of the country you practise? or what birds you fly?

I obviously agree weight drop isnt the answer to all that ails, but in jacks defense i have used pepto bismol personally for sour crop and found it remarkably effective??

You mention a cheap microscope to become an expert in avian medicine, what could we use that for effectivley?

I here what your saying about self professed experts too! they know all about dogs, falconry, hawks, avian medicine etc, etc LOL many of them hardly out of school:lol:

Take care mate and look forwards to hearing all about your experience and experiences;)

Mickey dredd: i have been reading the forum now for a number of years, just chose never to post and i am fairly well informed thanks so i hope we have some things in common to share for everyones benefit?

Read my profile. Its all there, which is more than I can say about yours. Want to enlighten us??
Microscopes are useless unless you know what you are looking for and how to look for it.

[Bois le duc]

Im sorry sprout i have just been made aware of how to look at profiles, very interesting?

How do you manage to find all the time to fly your birds, answer messages on here and earn a crust too? better man than me mate!

28 yrs old, leaving school after highers then 5yrs at University? i would say that means you have been working as a vet for 5yrs? Am i right?

I choose not to share my private life or details with anyone, which i assumed when joining was allowed?

I will tell you that i fly a Falcon at the moment but have some experience with other birds too and i guess i am prob best described as someone who doesnt hunt for numbers, but quality time in the company of a creature i love.

I have no beef with anyone and would just like to share a common passion with like minded folks:rolleyes:

[Kevin Massey]

How do you manage to find all the time to fly your birds, answer messages on here and earn a crust too? better man than me mate!

Surly no harder than running a business....looking after so many birds and also being able to fly a falcon..

We make the time:supz:

[Kevin Massey]

would just like to share a common passion with like minded folks

And what would you like to share? :wink:

[Sprout]

How do you manage to find all the time to fly your birds, answer messages on here and earn a crust too? better man than me mate!


Guess I'm lucky too, have all day, every day to fly my birds and work my dogs. Just had a change of job, worked out really well - really seeing the benefit in the consistency of my gamehawks and improved pitches since flying every day rather than just 3 times weekly. I'm slightly lacking in the sleep time but we do what we must for our passion.

[Sprout]

Thanx for the reply and glad that it isnt personal,

I here what your saying about self professed experts too! they know all about dogs, falconry, hawks, avian medicine etc, etc LOL many of them hardly out of school:lol:



So glad it isn't personal:wink:

[Bois le duc]

[QUOTE=Mass;436115]Surly no harder than running a business....looking after so many birds and also being able to fly a falcon..



Im sorry Mass you have me confused with someone else?

[Kevin Massey]

Im sorry Mass you have me confused with someone else?

pmsl

[Tarqers]

exellent tread ,knowledge through informed debate,,,,tarqs

[Bois le duc]

No really mass the bloke you are thinking of is currently is just around the corner from you, why not give him a shout for a beer!!

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

Why do you feel the need to hide behind an alter ego, to have a crack at someone who has given more to the forum than you ever did? Your sense of humour is based around your self gratification of your own ego. Grow up and come out the closet or **** off!

[Bois le duc]

Why do you feel the need to hide behind an alter ego, to have a crack at someone who has given more to the forum than you ever did? Your sense of humour is based around your self gratification of your own ego. Grow up and come out the closet or **** off!

Hi K_
you guys have realy got me mixed up with some one else, im over visiting relatives down south near the big smoke(as you guys call it!!!!)

[Falconry Equipment International]

I do hope this is not dis courteous , but in that case , whom are you ? Do I know you or should I be learning something new, after all I am only a relative beginner:yawinkle: :twisted:

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

Its Adrian Halgarth aka 'Varmint' or vomit!

[MoltenMetal]

so its the fella with a kessi that pinches chips oh no sits in trees:D :D

[Bois le duc]

Its Adrian Halgarth aka 'Varmint' or vomit!

now now cant we all play nicley, you all clearley have me mixed up with some one else, the original thread was about what makes a "specialist" avian vet

Yours B