Help and advice needed

[Richard]

On the Wednesday this week we lost our Gyr/saker, he died at the vets.

It was on boxing day he started showing obvious signs he wasn't well, and the next day it just got worse. The vet thought it was Aspergillosis although wasn't convinced. :-|

Now our lanner is casting undigested food, took him to the vets yesterday and hes been put on Sporanox for 3 weeks atleast. Today his weights dropped again to 14 1/4 oz. His mutes however are normal and he seems fine in himself.

I don't know if getting a post-mortem would help Zak's case because by the time the results come back it could be of no use to us?

There is no rotten wood or bark anywhere near the aviarys, no idea whats caused it? or what for that matter

Any thoughts appreciated immensly, and we'll keep you posted
Richard

[Stealth]

Zak, is feeding well today and his mutes appear normal:-|

Any advice still VERY welcome:-|

[Tasha55403]

Knowing why a bird died is never wasted knowledge. If it's not too late I would still get the post mortem done.

[DeadDogs]

Knowing why a bird died is never wasted knowledge. If it's not too late I would still get the post mortem done.

Sound advice

[Richard]

Knowing why a bird died is never wasted knowledge. If it's not too late I would still get the post mortem done.

How long does the results take to come back?
How successful are they? I've heard mixed things
How quickly would the bird need to be sent off?

Straight after christmas aswell is can be expensive, not saying thats a reason not to do it, but it adds the stress as you can imagine.

We're keeping Zak indoors and like i said he does seem fine in himself, apart from food he brought back up this morning.

Thanks for the replies, Rich

[Tasha55403]

Best would've been to send it off immediately. Freezing can make getting good results difficult. I don't know how it works over there. I've only done it the once here in the US.

[Mark Collins]

Hi sorry to hear about your gyr/saker ,its a real shame when they get sick but a p.m is a must just in case its contagious, i have lost 1 or 2 birds over the years, once spent a 1000, pd on a gyr/peregrine/saker, great rook hawk, i had to put it down myself in the end , enough was enough , unfortunatly the vetes couldnt diagnose the cause, [great western referals] , was lansdowne vets then they did all they could, but in this case a p.m would possible point you to a cause , so you could take precautions, hope your other birds are ok, good luck, cheers, mark.

[Richard]

Been told to give him the Sporanox twice a day which means feeding him twice a day? been told not to do this by other people.

Just gave the bird his food + sporanox and he's not bothered about eating it.

He was fed at about 10:30 this morning. He's not fat, his keel is sharp.

Should i mince the chick up? Like i said he appears fine in himself

[FlameHairedFalconer]

So sorry to hear about your Gyr x saker Tistel, thats a real shame.

Like you, I have other birds on the premises and would be inclined to have a PM done to try and find out the cause of the problem, and if it is contagious, which may go a long way to helping treat your lanneret if necessary.

Fingers crossed for you.

FHF

[Tasha55403]

Been told to give him the Sporanox twice a day which means feeding him twice a day? been told not to do this by other people.

Just gave the bird his food + sporanox and he's not bothered about eating it.

He was fed at about 10:30 this morning. He's not fat, his keel is sharp.

Should i mince the chick up? Like i said he appears fine in himself

Nothing wrong with feeding twice a day, just avoid casting material and you should be fine. In fact, if a bird is low (or you just want to put weight on a bird fast) the best thing to do is feed small amounts (no casting) every couple hours (after previous food has been put over). What you don't want to do is feed a bird that still has a crop. That can lead to sour crop.

[Richard]

Thanks for all your replys,

Tasha, he did have something in his crop when i tryed to feed him before, will try when its empty

Any idea how long a Post mortems results take to come back? I'm fairly confident it is Asper after reading more into it and what people have told me.

[Matthew Patching]

Been told to give him the Sporanox twice a day which means feeding him twice a day? been told not to do this by other people.

Just gave the bird his food + sporanox and he's not bothered about eating it.

He was fed at about 10:30 this morning. He's not fat, his keel is sharp.

Should i mince the chick up? Like i said he appears fine in himself

Dude Sporonox tastes like ****! To administer get a hood on him and stick a syringe down his throat and put it directly into the crop! If he thinks that you are putting sporonox in his food he wont eat it! and then when there is no sporonox present he will be suspicious about the food.

I have had a couple of birds at work that are on sporonox throughout the summer months to control asper. We just pick them up and stick it directly down there throats. we never have a problem and the birds just get used to being picked up twice a day.

If it is asper sporonox wont treat it, the bird will have asper for the rest of its life, and will need more sporonox when it is going through the stresses of training and weight managment, If you dont want the bird to die a miserable death then continueing to fly and keeping it fit will prolong its life, but once a bird has asper it always has it!

Dont let a vet tell you that sporonox will cure it as it wont, you will have to use it to control how bad it gets!

I would recomend X-rays once every 3-4 months to check on how bad it is getting and possibly an endoscopy twice a year to determine how long the bird has left!

[Tasha55403]

I think mine took a couple weeks, but it probably would've been faster if I'd asked about it earlier. I would ask whoever you send it to how long it will take. If you let them know you have another bird that's sick they might rush it through for you.

[Matthew Patching]

Thanks for all your replys,

Tasha, he did have something in his crop when i tryed to feed him before, will try when its empty

Any idea how long a Post mortems results take to come back? I'm fairly confident it is Asper after reading more into it and what people have told me.

A P.M results take 4-10 days to come back, depends how long the vets take to get it done!

[Tasha55403]

We've always been given Sporonox (Itraconazole) as small pellets. Never noticed the birds to have a problem with it. We just put it in the middle of a chunk of food and it goes right down. We've gotten Panacur (for various worms) in a liquid form, and I've used a syringe and squirted that into a chick or quail head or pinkie mouse and they just swallow it whole, no problem. But then, that's passage redtails-they swallow most things whole:lol:

[Richard]

How would i give him the sporanox in a pellet form? if he wont eat it in the food?

Would it be wise to up his weight or fly him as matt said in this early stage?

Thanks for the advice again

[StormRider]

What vet are u using Rich?
Sorry to hear about the bird. You should have given me a call and I could have given you some help mate.
As far as feeding the bird now, you really do need to be feeding twice a day in order for the metabolism to catch up. Hood the bird like Matt has said and syringe the fluid into the crop. If you have a tablet form, I would open the mouth of a DOC and push the tablet right down the throat of the DOC. Feed the bird the whole doc and it will ingest the tablet whilst it feeds without even noticing. In terms of weight, I am always inclined to weigh the bird twice a day, once in the morning and once at night. This is based on feeding the bird in the morning and night also and weighing just prior to feeding. Also get a mute and cast sample to the vet, just incase of a secondary infection.

STU

[Richard]

What vet are u using Rich?
Sorry to hear about the bird. You should have given me a call and I could have given you some help mate.
As far as feeding the bird now, you really do need to be feeding twice a day in order for the metabolism to catch up. Hood the bird like Matt has said and syringe the fluid into the crop. If you have a tablet form, I would open the mouth of a DOC and push the tablet right down the throat of the DOC. Feed the bird the whole doc and it will ingest the tablet whilst it feeds without even noticing. In terms of weight, I am always inclined to weigh the bird twice a day, once in the morning and once at night. This is based on feeding the bird in the morning and night also and weighing just prior to feeding. Also get a mute and cast sample to the vet, just incase of a secondary infection.

STU

The vet from Concord, Andrew i believe, forgot the name of the surgery.

The sporanox is a capsule containing hundreds of pellets, the vet said 1/20th of what was in the capsule twice a day for a week, which equales 30 of these pellets in a helping.

With such a small bird that doesnt swallow large pieces whole its proving to be a problem.

Nice to hear from you Stu

[Matthew Patching]

Pellets are a problem, we went from those to liquid form as it proved dificult for the birds to accept it. If I need to give a tablet in a bird then I just poke it into a chick head or small mouse that they can swallow whole!

However as you have noticed with a small bird they dont swallow whole, they pick bits off, in this situation I would definatly get hold of some liquid sporonox and administer as stated.

[Richard]

Pellets are a problem, we went from those to liquid form as it proved dificult for the birds to accept it. If I need to give a tablet in a bird then I just poke it into a chick head or small mouse that they can swallow whole!

However as you have noticed with a small bird they dont swallow whole, they pick bits off, in this situation I would definatly get hold of some liquid sporonox and administer as stated.

Where would the best place to get a hold of this is?

[Richard]

Update

Birds cast the food from this morning, all undigested, and a darkened colour.

Not interested in feeding, not even on bits of chicks without treatment on.

He weighs 14 5/8oz which is 1 1/2oz below his flying weight. With him being a small bird you can imagine my concern

[Stealth]

Stu, many thanks for your help.

Bird is "as normal", but his castings are not quite right.

He has digested a lot today (hasn't cast everything) and his mutes look normal.

Monitoring him continious, in case of any deterioration, but to be honest he is as "cheeky" as ever:yawinkle:

There has also been some good PMs come through from others, that have proved helpful:-D

Will keep everyone informed:-|

[Sprout]

Asper is easy to diagnose - not guess at. It either was asper or not. A bird bringing food back is a very bad sign, I would say phone me but I can't help over the phone. If your vets are guessing you need to find someone who won't, you need a diagnosis. To diagnose asper you need xrays and endoscopy +- bloods, was this done?? If not, find someone TOMORROW who will to get a diagnosis, a bird bringing back undigested food cannot wait til new year.
Still, phone me if you want. PM sent.

[Richard]

Ate his food before without hesitation and started muting not long after, fine mutes.

I'll give you a ring tommorow Sprout, thanks

[Misty]

Stu, many thanks for your help.

Bird is "as normal", but his castings are not quite right.

He has digested a lot today (hasn't cast everything) and his mutes look normal.

Monitoring him continious, in case of any deterioration, but to be honest he is as "cheeky" as ever:yawinkle:

There has also been some good PMs come through from others, that have proved helpful:-D

Will keep everyone informed:-|

i don't know if I am missing something here but I thought the poorly bird belonged to tistel but now there is this post from stealth, is this another bird or are you both the same person. :confused:

[Richard]

i don't know if I am missing something here but I thought the poorly bird belonged to tistel but now there is this post from stealth, is this another bird or are you both the same person. :confused:

Father son :)

[Misty]

thanks, I can sleep happy now. I thought dementia was setting in:lol:
hope the bird improves soon.

[Stealth]

Sandy, sorry for any confusion:-|

Due to various replies (and PMs), which have been very helpful:yawinkle:

It does get a little confusing:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Stealth]

This morning Zak's castings were part digested:-|

His mutes looked fine and he is looking normal (healthy).

I am proposing to feed him small ammounts today, as suggested.

His weight this morning is 14 1/4oz, so he is maintaining a reasonable weight.

Once again many thanks for your help:yawinkle:

[Sprout]

This morning Zak's castings were part digested:-|

His mutes looked fine and he is looking normal (healthy).

I am proposing to feed him small ammounts today, as suggested.

His weight this morning is 14 1/4oz, so he is maintaining a reasonable weight.

Once again many thanks for your help:yawinkle:

There is something very wrong if he is bringing up part digested food - get an answer today.

[Stealth]

Sprout, trouble is though... is getting an answer from where:confused:

If I take hime to the vet (recommended as the person to see), he gets the manual out, (as you have described in your other posts) and struggles to diagnose:-|

I wonder if the Anti-biotics (prescribed by vet) have resulted in this, as yesterday he refused the food (DOC) that had a small ammount (hidden) on them!

Trying to give hime the treatment, twice a day, may have effected his casting.

Will give you a call

[Sprout]

Sprout, trouble is though... is getting an answer from where:confused:

If I take hime to the vet (recommended as the person to see), he gets the manual out, (as you have described in your other posts) and struggles to diagnose:-|

I wonder if the Anti-biotics (prescribed by vet) have resulted in this, as yesterday he refused the food (DOC) that had a small ammount (hidden) on them!

Trying to give hime the treatment, twice a day, may have effected his casting.

Will give you a call


If you live in the North East give Harcourt Brown a phone in Harrogate. You need a diagnosis, see someone with experience.

[Sprout]

I wonder if the Anti-biotics (prescribed by vet) have resulted in this, as yesterday he refused the food (DOC) that had a small ammount (hidden) on them!



What anti-biotics?? Baytril will make birds sick, other antibiotics can also upset the natural gut bacteria and again cause vomiting - use probiotics after your antibiotics. However, IF it is asper, antibiotics on their own will kill the bird quicker - remove the bacterial competition to the fungus allowing it to proliferate unchecked.
Sporonox (if that is what he is on) is an anti-fungal, not an anti-biotic.

[Stealth]

It is Sporanox:confused:

[StormRider]

Rich, Norman,
You are obviuously seeing Andrew Henfry. I have used him for years now and have always found him to be very good. However, you do have what looks like a serious problem here and should not be delaying getting it sorted. Call, Prescott on 01670 512275. That is the number I have for him. If you get no answer then try one of his other surgeries. You'll get other numbers out of the yellow bible.

STU

[AngelJakki]

Sorry to hear about your other bird and hope you get the help you need with this one.

[Stealth]

Zak appears to be quite stable now:-|

He is eating a bit and keeping it down!!!!

Monitoring his weight VERY regular and he is maintaining a consistant weight:-D

Not wishing to speak to soon, but to those that helped (ESPECIALLY STU AND KARL), many, many, many, thanks for all the "right" advice.

See how he goes through tonight, but (HARD) lessons have been learn't.

Sometimes doing the right thing..... ain't what it seems:!:

[Misty]

What anti-biotics?? Baytril will make birds sick, other antibiotics can also upset the natural gut bacteria and again cause vomiting - use probiotics after your antibiotics. However, IF it is asper, antibiotics on their own will kill the bird quicker - remove the bacterial competition to the fungus allowing it to proliferate unchecked.
Sporonox (if that is what he is on) is an anti-fungal, not an anti-biotic.

sprout
i have always kept a supply of baytril in case of emergency first aid such as a squirrel bite etc. I have never had a bird be sick or dehydrated or lose appetite however I will bow to your superior knowledge as it appears i have just been lucky up to now. What antibiotic would you suggest I keep in instead?

[Sprout]

What antibiotic would you suggest I keep in instead?

I don't - that should be a clinical judgement based on the injury/position etc, not all anti-biotics are suitable for all occasions. The wrong one at the wrong time can have equally disastrous consequences as not using them at all.

[Sprout]

Zak appears to be quite stable now:-|

He is eating a bit and keeping it down!!!!

Monitoring his weight VERY regular and he is maintaining a consistant weight:-D

Not wishing to speak to soon, but to those that helped (ESPECIALLY STU AND KARL), many, many, many, thanks for all the "right" advice.

See how he goes through tonight, but (HARD) lessons have been learn't.

Sometimes doing the right thing..... ain't what it seems:!:


How are things progressing?? Hope all well.

[Richard]

How are things progressing?? Hope all well.

Birds fine now, weighs 15oz casting well and mutes are fine

I'd like to thank everyone for the help :goodman: