Hybrids

[DeniseTail]

I just finished reading Kes Hybrids. This is one of many threads I've read discussing different crosses of hybrids and arguments for and against cross breeding. I have seen no threads relating specifically to the problems of cross breeding and getting a really sh***y bird.

I'm curious..... What do falconers do when they wind up with a hybrid that has negative qualities from the cross breeding, as opposed to the traits they wish to develope in a hybrid?

What happens to the hybrid when Mother Nature gives you a bird that basically tells man "don't mess with me!"? :-x

[Grey_Squirrel_Hawker]

depends on what you mean by a "******" hybrid? if it was a pointless hybird like say a comon buzzard and a red tail, then you end up with a "pointless" hybrid which has been bred probobly thru curiosity, or perhaps to make money coz someone will pay top doller for an unusual or rare hybrid that noone else has, regarless if it out preforms either pure parent or does anything worthwhile for that matter. unfortunately, alot of hybrids are bred for the wrong reasons IMHO.

[Tim Laycock]

Is it moraly wrong for someone to breed an unusual hybrid just out of curiousity?

[Grey_Squirrel_Hawker]

Is it moraly wrong for someone to breed an unusual hybrid just out of curiousity?

no, i bred a bengalese finch X white headed nun hybrid a few years back purely out of curiosity, i dont think its moraly wrong. what i feel in moraly wrong is breeding an unual hybrid and charge a rediculous sum of money for it because you know some mug will buy it coz few others have one.

look at the ferrutails that were being sold last year for 2K a peice!! you could buy a pair of RT and a pair of ferrus and start breeding them yourself for that!

[KiteTrainer]

Is it moraly wrong for someone to breed an unusual hybrid just out of curiousity?
]

Sorry not sure I agree with you did they not all start out through curiousity?:rolleyes:

When did it not become moraly wrong.................not against them just don't agree with your argument:rolleyes:

[Tim Laycock]

]

Sorry not sure I agree with you did they not all start out through curiousity?:rolleyes:

When did it not become moraly wrong.................not against them just don't agree with your argument:rolleyes:

I dont believe I stated a view to disagree with :rolleyes:

I dont believe there was a single point upon which any argument was supposed to rest either :rolleyes:

[DeniseTail]

depends on what you mean by a "******" hybrid? ...

I mean a hybrid winding up with both birds' worst qualities.

[DeniseTail]

Is it moraly wrong for someone to breed an unusual hybrid just out of curiousity?

..another moral question: If you wound up with a bird that had nothing but bad qualities for falconry what would you do with it?

[Tim Laycock]

..another moral question: If you wound up with a bird that had nothing but bad qualities for falconry what would you do with it?

Wring the poor b******s neck as its good for nothing :!:

[Eznugud]

Admittedly I can be very thick sometimes, but I really can’t get my head around the question you are asking.

Do you mean if you get say a Gyr x Pere that’s a bit loopy and you just can’t train it for love or money?
If that is the case then its pretty straight forward, give in to someone who can train it, there’s always someone better than you….I have passed a few pain in the arse birds onto my dad to get going.

I think the newness of hybrids wore off some time ago and the silly hybrids have stopped.
I and I am sure most falconers no longer buy an hybrid just to “see” what its like.
Most if not all the hybrids have been put to the test and the pros and cons of each hybrid is well documented, so you buy a falcon to do the specific job you want it to do.

Can you give us an example of what you mean?

[Terry S]

..another moral question: If you wound up with a bird that had nothing but bad qualities for falconry what would you do with it?

I think what is being said is, if for example you have a Pere/Saker that has different profiles on each of its wings for example(which has happened) or if some of the really crazy Pere/Prairies that really are nutters, what is the moral standing? do you destroy them or do you pass the problem on to somebody else which to be fair has happened plenty of times...........
I think it is a good qustion for discussion

[Beanz]

The question of the ethics of breeding hybrids is a huge and an ongoing debate both inside and outside of falconry circles the world over. It is an unfortunate reality that a large influential section of the population no longer sees 'blood sports' in the favourable light it once did. Genetic modification in plants and animals as you will am sure be aware is currently highly controversial, each side sighting reams of scientific evidence to support their claims. I dread to think of the potential outcry if a breeder is discovered producing a clutch of 'monster' falcons. We seem to be discussing the morality of killing crossbreeding disasters without investigating the fallout from genetic modification. Do we classify falcons and hawks in the same way we do dogs and horses are they our domestic 'tools', their genes to be manipulated in this case for our pleasure? The birds we use and breed for falconry are wild or come from wild stock. In some cases this stock is threatened by a variety of factors. Do we understand the impacts of lost or released hybrids on natural populations? Are we not opening a door that will allow animal rightists and anti field sport supporters right in to close us down?

[FlameHairedFalconer]

Moved

[Goshawker 20]

Tez you ever known a hybrid that was untrainable? or no good for anything display hunting etc :?: There will always be somebody who will do something with one and in most hybrid case's there a one of never heard of a certain hybrid that someone has said you dont wanna touch one of them.

All the best

Bob


ps Having said that them gyr/prarie's can be ****ing nutters lol:supz:

[Kirowan]

hi hybrids themselve in general are not the problem,its the type of hybrid that is causing concern.accipiter and buteo hybrids generally offer no gain at all to the falconer.there are many advantages to some not all falcon hybrids.most gyr hybrids are well bred and allow falconers to fly a longwing were flying a peregrine is unsuitable.pere need vast areas of open land to get the best out of them.they also have 3 traits which can go against the falconer in the feild if the terrain is not to their liking.1 they hunt in a series of shallow stoops this takes the flight away from you.2 if things dont go their way they tend to rake away.3 they wont enter cover.nothing beats a pere in a downward stoop at game on a moor or similar area,but alas we all dont have such luxury.falcon hybrids alas give us the chance to experience longwinged falconry in our maise of difficult countryside.there are of course falcon hybrids i dissagree with but by and large the most common ie.gyr x pere gyr x saker pere x saker and pere x praire are great falcons.one thing you must remember if we allow an hybrid ban to happen through stupid hybrid production then a non indiginous ban will follow.how many of you fly this type of bird?

[Amews]

Is it moraly wrong for someone to breed an unusual hybrid just out of curiousity?

Of course it is.

[Amews]

The question of the ethics of breeding hybrids is a huge and an ongoing debate both inside and outside of falconry circles the world over. It is an unfortunate reality that a large influential section of the population no longer sees 'blood sports' in the favourable light it once did. Genetic modification in plants and animals as you will am sure be aware is currently highly controversial, each side sighting reams of scientific evidence to support their claims. I dread to think of the potential outcry if a breeder is discovered producing a clutch of 'monster' falcons. We seem to be discussing the morality of killing crossbreeding disasters without investigating the fallout from genetic modification. Do we classify falcons and hawks in the same way we do dogs and horses are they our domestic 'tools', their genes to be manipulated in this case for our pleasure? The birds we use and breed for falconry are wild or come from wild stock. In some cases this stock is threatened by a variety of factors. Do we understand the impacts of lost or released hybrids on natural populations? Are we not opening a door that will allow animal rightists and anti field sport supporters right in to close us down?

Hallelujah

[Hacker]

Do not forget that the rouge falcon can be produced from pure stock as well as hybrid stock.
If it is in anyway deficient ie mutated etc then it should be euthanased.
After all the bird would never survive in the wild, do not bring human sentiment into the equation as you will always make the wrong decision.
Breeders must behave responsibly as well as ethically.

[Jack]

The way this thing actually got started was because the peregrine was beyond our reach. I can remember when the odd gyrfalcon, and the prairie falcon was just about all you could get. The peregrines that were held before the ban were most all donated to the Peregrine Fund for breeding and the rest died out of old age. Some were actually bred, but they did not always have another peregrine that they could breed them with, so they started using whatever they could find. Desperation call. And so the hybrid came to be. It was pretty much what we had. Then of course the peregrine purists manage to build up a nice population of available peregrines once it was made legal to own one, and still the hybrid was prevelent. Money. It is all about money. If you wanted to breed and sell hunting falcons, you bred what you could get your hands on, and mostly that would be different species. Thus more hybrids. There was this BS about hybrid viger. No such thing. Most large falcons that have been proven as falconry birds will be so closely matched in ability that the hybrid is not much different. The Gyr/prairie and the peregrine/prairie are just showing the prairie genetics when they act up. But then the peregrine is capable of acting an ass too.
There were thought of adding speed and tenacity to the RT by crossing it with our little pit bull of a hawk, the Cooper's hawk. It scared the hell out of most people. Then they decided to cross the Harris with the Cooper's hawk. Another situation where they didn't have 2 birds of the same species so they put what they had together. Every Harris/Cooper's hybrid that I have ever know of was killed on power poles. The Harris likes to perch on poles, the Cooper's likes to perch right in next to the main trunk and about 2/3 or more up the tree. That usually makes the pot very tempting to them. They always seem to head straight for it. That might seem to be BS, but then I can not figure out why they all got fried eventually otherwise.
I have a gyr/prairie tiercel, and he is one heck of a little hunter. He flys high, and he is very dependable. The only thing wrong with this hybrid is that they tend to be extremely weight sensitive just like the passage prairies. They have to be flown at bone before you get anything from them at first, but eventually you can bring them back on up in weight. It is the only way that I think they are worth anything. Once that weight is back up and they are cranking, it is hard to beat them. I love mine.

Jack

[JFSeaman]

Man has been hybridizing for centuries. Take the gardener, most if not all wouldn't think it immoral to cross two different orchids to see what happens.

Some raptor crosses are non-sense and you get a non-sense bird.

A Redtail x Coopers is fine as long as it comes with a full kevlar body suit and crash helmet otherwise its non-sense. To be honest, I think it would be brilliant on rabbits but given the parents, it would have to be an imprint and something that fast, strong and aggressive with no fear of humans it would be a nightmare.

[Tim Laycock]

A Redtail x Coopers is fine as long as it comes with a full kevlar body suit and crash helmet otherwise its non-sense. To be honest, I think it would be brilliant on rabbits but given the parents, it would have to be an imprint and something that fast, strong and aggressive with no fear of humans it would be a nightmare.

Erm........Goshawk? :lol:

[JFSeaman]

Erm........Goshawk? :lol:

oops.:oops:

[Jack]

Any time you choose to hybridize something you have to look at the attributes of both parents. They have good and bad attributes, and it is like mixing black and white. You always get gray. Never quite what you are expecting really, as you will usually combine the less attractive aspects and only come up with something half as good as you hoped for. Anything done with Kestrels would be counter productive, as even if you could cross it with an excellent bird catching falcon, you will reduce it's potential with the Kestrel half. I know that Kestrels have been known to catch birds, as I myself have done it a time or 2. But on average it is simply not going to happen. Wishful thinking really. Mixing 2 species that are both excellent in themselves seems a waste of time, and it probably wouldn't gain or lose in the abilities as a falconry bird, but by mixing an excellent bird with one that is iffy or is not considered as a species to be a good hawking bird, you would produce a bird of less ability.

Jack