Best breeders

[Valdi99]

I just wonder who would you name the best breeders in the UK country? Tom Stafford, Nick Fox, anybody else to add to the list?

[Berkut]

For quality of falcons, and honesty and integrity as a seller you won,t beat Steve Moroney.

[Valdi99]

Thanks Berkut! Only 3 breeders on a list...?

[SSL]

Mick Kanes gotta be there for Goshawks (and Shandy drinking).

[Misty]

where's terry on this list??
he should be there

[Berkut]

Mick Kanes gotta be there for Goshawks (and Shandy drinking).

Mick Kanes gosses are probably top of the list.He breeds a mean falcon as well I believe.:wink:

[Rapt0r]

where's terry on this list??
he should be there

I think Terry (kentish falconry) is right up there....along with Falconmews.

[Liam Fensome]

For good peregrines its got to be
jeff armstrong
chris southern
colin pass

and for goshawks
mick kane


atb
Liam

[Yeoman]

I just wonder who would you name the best breeders in the UK country? Tom Stafford, Nick Fox, anybody else to add to the list?

Best breeders, dont mean best hawks. Jim giles is very good, good birds too Gary almedia ,im sure there is a lot, more but those 2 i can vouch for having had there birds
kev

[PeelsBells]

I would scrub FALCON MEWS off (thats only my experience) they buy in more than they breed.:roll:

[Finnish]

For the best Goshawks around for quality and one of the best bloodlines left I would say Gary Cook, Mick Kane & Cliff Bramhald. I-M-O.


Lee

[Barbary Boy]

I would scrub FALCON MEWS off (thats only my experience) they buy in more than they breed.:roll:

RUBBISH?

[RedNoseK9]

Back lee on all three of them gary cook small time but great gosses and mick well cant praise the guy enought his birds and his setup great.
Terry great falcons best gyr hybrids around and watch this space for other species

[Gozzhawk]

D masters , P burns , onyx25.

oh ....me

[FalconMews]

We have bred 1,000 registerable falcons with A.I. in the last five years alone, can you tell me anyone else in the UK who has bred that many falcons with A.I. in the same period?

[Finnish]

Wow thats a lot of birds Pete.:shock:

[Lady]

Terry, definitely. His falcons are magnificent.

I've never had the pleasure of visiting Falcon Mews but have heard nothing but good of them. (Peels Bells I think it's time to drop it now).

[Rocky]

Well done Pete,keep it up,as it says on a viagra pill :lol: :lol:

[Finnish]

Terry Burden does breed some cracking good falcon's too. Never been to Falcon Mews but friends have said they are impressed..

[Yeoman]

We have bred 1,000 registerable falcons with A.I. in the last five years alone, can you tell me anyone else in the UK who has bred that many falcons with A.I. in the same period?

This thread was about the best breeders ,not the biggest and whos bred the most MONEY MONEY MONEY MONEY

[Lady]

This thread was about the best breeders ,not the biggest MONEY MONEY MONEY MONEY

Someone with an old grudge attacked the guy. All he's doing is defending the reputation of his business. Sheesh.
I personally don't think Falcon Mews (or any of the large breeders come to that) have to prove anything to anyone. It's just a major irritant when they are dragged in to other people's opinions (usually without asking to be). The question was who are good breeders, and people have given their opinion on that. Let's stick to the point of the thread.

[Yeoman]

Someone with an old grudge attacked the guy. All he's doing is defending the reputation of his business. Sheesh.
I personally don't think Falcon Mews (or any of the large breeders come to that) have to prove anything to anyone. It's just a major irritant when they are dragged in to other people's opinions (usually without asking to be). The question was who are good breeders, and people have given their opinion on that. Let's stick to the point of the thread.

Dont care about poeples grudges and certainly dont want to get involved in them the opinion is mine

[Lady]

Dont care about poeples grudges and certainly dont want to get involved in them the opinion is mine

Then you are certainly entitled to it.
I still think though that the question was "who are the best breeders" and that's what we should stick to.

[Rocky]

I've seen some beautiful birds at Armthorpe Falcons, Colin Pass's and Gary Almeida's absolutely stunners :supz:

[Barbary Boy]

there are certainly a lot of individuals out there now breeding a small number of top quality birds! and they are to be applauded and acknowledged. but to bad mouth any large commercial enterprise is out of order! these are the guys we owe a debt to? if it wasnt for them we wouldnt have the birds we have now? and unfortunatly if you breed 10 birds! you may get one moaner, but? if you breed ten times that amount you WILL get 10 times the grief! so the bigger the breeder the bigger the amount of moaners? so dont believe everything you hear? Some "BIG" breeders like to have a high profile and appear to be "GODS" on here ? and to the unwashed they are! while the really important "BIG" breeders are just watching from the sidelines. LAUGHING? if your that big. that immportant and that commercial your not on here bragging about your birds, because theyre allready sold?

[SSL]

there are certainly a lot of individuals out there now breeding a small number of top quality birds! and they are to be applauded and acknowledged. but to bad mouth any large commercial enterprise is out of order! these are the guys we owe a debt to? if it wasnt for them we wouldnt have the birds we have now? and unfortunatly if you breed 10 birds! you may get one moaner, but? if you breed ten times that amount you WILL get 10 times the grief! so the bigger the breeder the bigger the amount of moaners? so dont believe everything you hear? Some "BIG" breeders like to have a high profile and appear to be "GODS" on here ? and to the unwashed they are! while the really important "BIG" breeders are just watching from the sidelines. LAUGHING? if your that big. that immportant and that commercial your not on here bragging about your birds, because theyre allready sold?

Alot of sense, but we dont owe a debt to anyone just the price of the Falcon/Hawk.

Most of the guys have a nice lifestyle breeding hawks lets not forget that, the day they give em away then I'll agree we owe them something.

[Sprout]

Alot of sense, but we dont owe a debt to anyone just the price of the Falcon/Hawk.

Most of the guys have a nice lifestyle breeding hawks lets not forget that, the day they give em away then I'll agree we owe them something.

Disagree with you there. A lot happens behind the scenes (Ask Terry - sure he'll elaborate). Without the big breeders I'm sure falconry would be much harder to practise legally in the U.K. now.

[Barbary Boy]

Alot of sense, but we dont owe a debt to anyone just the price of the Falcon/Hawk.

Most of the guys have a nice lifestyle breeding hawks lets not forget that, the day they give em away then I'll agree we owe them something.

you really are talking a load of ***** now? these guys allmost definatly work harder than you ever do? longer hours and less time off! grow up ? wake up ? and get real!

[SSL]

you really are talking a load of ***** now? these guys allmost definatly work harder than you ever do? longer hours and less time off! grow up ? wake up ? and get real!

Now whose talking ****.

You dont even know me you fool, how the hell do you know how I hard I work?

Tell you what, I'd swap the 5am starts the 30 mile commute and not being home till after 7pm to get up, grab a cup of coffee and walk down the garden to work tomorrow.

If you aint happy being a breeder Keith sell up and get a proper job 100's out there chomping at the bit to take over.

[Mark Collins]

Been flying birds over 30 years now, 2 of the best falcons i have flown have been bred by falcon mews, both black gyr/peregrines , the first one killed 84 head in 8 months of flying , crows / rooks / gulls, good ringing flights , long slips, if i wanted another gyr/peregrine its there phone that would be ringing, fantastic birds , a mate flew a gyr/peregrine at crows/gulls and he was just as good , also , a close friend has a peregrine , prairie in its 3rd season, its a very good rook hawk, both richard and peter have been very helpfull over the last few years, mark.

[Tim Laycock]

For the best Goshawks around for quality and one of the best bloodlines left I would say Gary Cook, Mick Kane & Cliff Bramhald. I-M-O.


Lee

agree

[Barbary Boy]

Now whose talking ****.

You dont even know me you fool, how the hell do you know how I hard I work?

Tell you what, I'd swap the 5am starts the 30 mile commute and not being home till after 7pm to get up, grab a cup of coffee and walk down the garden to work tomorrow.

If you aint happy being a breeder Keith sell up and get a proper job 100's out there chomping at the bit to take over.

now you really are talking ***** m8? i am not a proffessional breeder! i am a hobby breeder ? i breed a handfull of birds every year for you ungrates out there and work a long and horrable shift pattern on top?i allso get up and finnish at very unreasonable hours and still try to manage a small breeding programme on top of it all? who are the 100's out there waiting to take over? and why havent they? Is it because they are typical falconer types? ie tight arses who like to moan about breeders but who arnt willing to invest in property, and a breeding project costing more than most of you can imagine? get real? get a life? and get off the backs of people keeping YOUR sport alive? if youve never tried to breed from more than a couple of pairs, then with respect , you really really dont know what your talking about?

[SSL]

Barbary Boy this is a boring arguement you've had many times.

Some breeders do sterling work so that Falconers can buy good quality hawks. Great, fantastic, its their job and they do it well, like thousands of others who do their jobs well.

I aint knocking breeders big or small, but I aint about to get on my hands and knees either...

If you want to know who the 100s waiting in sidelines are, just look on here at the number who get into breeding every year, probably with the goal of giving up work and making a living from breeding raptors.

[Misty]

If you want to know who the 100s waiting in sidelines are, just look on here at the number who get into breeding every year, probably with the goal of giving up work and making a living from breeding raptors.

and after one or two years trying to make the rich profit they think is there, they give up and go back to flying them instead. BarbaryBoy might be still singing the same old tune but that's because it's true. It's dam hard work and everything you put into it can be wiped out with one fell swoop. Something as simple as a feral cat or a low flying aircraft and where you had a super clutch of fertile eggs, you now have cracked eggs and zero profit. As for just walking down the garden, jeez, you have no idea!

[Moritz]

How do you define best breeder?
there are lots of different species of birds and every one takes different skill.
If you can breed goshawks that does not mean you could breed a gyr/peregrine or the other way around.
unless you are a breeder yourself, you won't even know what it means to breed certian birds.
only if you ever tried breeding gyrs or gyr/peregrines you will know how much work it takes. to breed even one gyr/peregrine you need to be good, to breed a good number you need to be one of the best. I can not tell you who the best is, because I have not seen them all at work. so give me 30 years and 1 year with each breeder and I will be able to tell you who the best breeder for each species is.
from the top of my head i would say;
for falcons;
peter gill and ritchard hill
gary wall
terry burden
mark robb
martin paterson, the man behind nick fox's breeding project
in no special order they are all very good

i can not talk for eagles as I do not know the breeders.

goshawks;
mike cane
tom graham
and some more

hh the best ones i know of are terry burden and ian garlands
they look like small eagles.

tell us what kind of breeder you want and we might be able to help you more.

moritz

[SSL]

As for just walking down the garden, jeez, you have no idea!

How do you come to that conclusion?

[Misty]

How do you come to that conclusion?

because if you did have any personal knowledge of breeding you would realise that there is a lot more involved than simply walking down the garden.

[Richard]

Heard nothing but good things from falconmews, with afew exceptions. Do your research on breeders birds sold and hunted in the UK, you'll have your answer :lol:

[Yeoman]

I've seen some beautiful birds at Armthorpe Falcons, Colin Pass's and Gary Almeida's absolutely stunners :supz:
ive heard that bryn at armthorpe falcons breeds the best in south yorkshire. I havent had a bird off colin ,but i know him personally, if his birds are half as good as him they should be up with the best
kev

[PitBullOne]

gary almeda for gosses ,only has pure fins(harry gilbert) modest prices,and they do what it says on the tin

[AhmedQ8]

This thread was about the best breeders ,not the biggest and whos bred the most MONEY MONEY MONEY MONEY

and i would say falcon mews one of the best, i got very good falcon from them .
every year dealer here in Kuwait import 20 - 30 falcon from them and many of may friend got falcons no complement.
the best breeder in may experience on (gyr/saker) :
Nike fox
Falcon mews
Tarry
martin Jones

[Pete Kent]

I breed peregrines, hybrids and soon gosses and can confirm first hand that if you want to breed for money then breed parrots or something not birds of prey.

When you take out the work you put in, the cost of the birds, the food (if you feed your birds good quality food that is), the time needed, the aviary building and costs and upkeep, the health factor, vets bills, and all the other areas of cost and work needed to run a good quality breeding project the money received from the sale of the birds is definately not the reason most small non-commercial breeders do it.

All the small breeders I know and I include myself do it for the love of the birds and falconry not the money.

[GoneHawking]

gary almeda for gosses ,only has pure fins(harry gilbert) modest prices,and they do what it says on the tin

What exactley does it say on the young goshawk tin??? theres plenty of cracking birds being bred but without the falconers knowledge to guide the young bird, theres every chance it could turn out *****, although abviously it helps to have the right ingredients to start with.

Goshawks = Mick Kane, super birds and good honest decent bloke.

Mark

[Misty]

Pete Kent, this is sooo true and exactly what I have been saying all along in various past threads. trouble is, anyone who isn't involved in small time breeding really doesn't believe us.
There is just something so magical in watching that first egg layed and even more so when it pips.

[HawkMan69UK]

gary lawrence bred some cracking goshawks last year:P

[Terry Hanson]

Is not the proof in the end result, i.e a successful hunting bird. If they were all that good why is it that folk take a new bird up each season to fly. I bet folk know more falconers :lol: with an eyas than those flying a 3-6year old or more bird.

[SSL]

because if you did have any personal knowledge of breeding you would realise that there is a lot more involved than simply walking down the garden.

Go back and read my post again, if you still dont understand what I'm saying then pm me for more detail, this is not what I said.

[Barbary Boy]

oh ! is there more to it than that?

[Chanting Goshawk]

and after one or two years trying to make the rich profit they think is there, they give up and go back to flying them instead. BarbaryBoy might be still singing the same old tune but that's because it's true. It's dam hard work and everything you put into it can be wiped out with one fell swoop. Something as simple as a feral cat or a low flying aircraft and where you had a super clutch of fertile eggs, you now have cracked eggs and zero profit. As for just walking down the garden, jeez, you have no idea!

I totally agree i have a very modest 20 pairs and i have only just finished the ledges,boxes nest sites i wish it was just walking down the bloody garden hats off to the big boys they deserve it

[OutFlying]

Alot of sense, but we dont owe a debt to anyone just the price of the Falcon/Hawk.

Most of the guys have a nice lifestyle breeding hawks lets not forget that, the day they give em away then I'll agree we owe them something.

Spot on Steve,

Good service requires good customers - they go both hand in hand.

Jim.

[OutFlying]

Best breeders -

The ones that don't take deposits once there order books are full, or take deposits knowing they will never supply.

The ones that supply feather perfect heathly hawks on collection.

Jim

[Barbary Boy]

Best breeders -

The ones that don't take deposits once there order books are full, or take deposits knowing they will never supply.

The ones that supply feather perfect heathly hawks on collection.

Jim

for gods sake! breeders will never be loved on here will they? what if they all packed in now? where would everyone get there birds from ! the wild ? yes there are some people making money from breeding, but !give it a go and see if you feel like giving your young away? if youve never tried it on a more than one pair scale then please dont knock it, breeders work hard all year round to keep you moaning lot happy, then the odd bad deal occurs out of hundreds or even thousands then the breeder is a ******? wake up and smell the coffee you lot?

[OutFlying]

for gods sake! breeders will never be loved on here will they? what if they all packed in now? where would everyone get there birds from ! the wild ? yes there are some people making money from breeding, but !give it a go and see if you feel like giving your young away? if youve never tried it on a more than one pair scale then please dont knock it, breeders work hard all year round to keep you moaning lot happy, then the odd bad deal occurs out of hundreds or even thousands then the breeder is a ******? wake up and smell the coffee you lot?

I apppreciate breeders Keith,
I know the hard work involved and the costs, but if you don't won't to do it or STOP MOANING about being a breeder then pack it in ;) .

Plenty do make a profit and are happy to be a breeder, but you seem to be a sad case that can't do it at a profit and expect me to thank you.

Don't wait up for the thank you call or card :supz:


Jim

[OutFlying]

for gods sake! breeders will never be loved on here will they? what if they all packed in now? where would everyone get there birds from ! the wild ? yes there are some people making money from breeding, but !give it a go and see if you feel like giving your young away? if youve never tried it on a more than one pair scale then please dont knock it, breeders work hard all year round to keep you moaning lot happy, then the odd bad deal occurs out of hundreds or even thousands then the breeder is a ******? wake up and smell the coffee you lot?

Keith,

I now see the reason your trying to breed Red Naped Shaheens or Barbarys, not for profit but to supply the common or garden Uk falconer - just so he doesn't have to pinch one from the wild :lol:

I'll put the coffee pot on - do you want to drink it or just smell it :supz:

Jim

[SSL]

oh ! is there more to it than that?

Why do you breed hawks?

[Trebor]

Hi
it's funny how when a bird turns out bad it's the breeders fault, when all go's well it's the person flying it. A bad falconer will never get the best out of any bird, no matter who bred it. Falcon mews are always on the end of a phone even in in a busy pre season.
Rob:supz:

[Yeoman]

and i would say falcon mews one of the best, i got very good falcon from them .
every year dealer here in Kuwait import 20 - 30 falcon from them and many of may friend got falcons no complement.
the best breeder in may experience on (gyr/saker) :
Nike fox
Falcon mews
Tarry
martin Jones

I agrey you would have got good birds from them,because on there big sale days Ahmed8, you see the birds ,2 days before the uk falconers get a sniff:yawinkle:

[PeelsBells]

Barbery boy you seem quite close to Falcon Mews are you still in their pocket or have you been promoted to under the table. I have read your comments for a long time now and i carnt work out if you are fully of **** or you just like taking the pi**.:roll:
Honesty i find is a good quality but have not found this with some of the big breeders. Terry you have called in the past, he is the only one who offers money back and has time on the phone:supz: .So from my experience if i want a falcon i would go to him.

[Kentish Falconry]

I agrey you would have got good birds from them,because on there big sale days Ahmed8, you see the birds ,2 days before the uk falconers get a sniff:yawinkle:

When we held our Sales Weekends all the Falcons were on display and were for sale, our Arabian customers were told to come on the 2 sales days and select their birds, all UK Falconers were also welcome to purchase any bird on the stands and anyone who attended these events will tell you the same thing.
The only birds on show but marked as sold were birds we had bred and we were keeping for future breeding so in fact were for display purposes only.

We also organise Falconers and Forum parties over the sales weekend but last year was the last time we are going to hold these events.

Terry

[Phill Gibbons]

Still The Best

[Crawford]

and i would say falcon mews one of the best, i got very good falcon from them .
every year dealer here in Kuwait import 20 - 30 falcon from them and many of may friend got falcons no complement.
the best breeder in may experience on (gyr/saker) :
Nike fox
Falcon mews
Tarry
martin Jones

I have purchased birds from many big breeders in the past Jones, Fox, Creese ect....All have surplied top class specimens.
Last year a friend bought a gyr x peregrine from falcon mews. He exspected his bird to have been bred by Richard and Peter but it wasn`t, just bought in for a sale I quess?
The thing is, im abit old school when everybody helped each other in the small cycle of Falconry buddys. Now as most things in the moden world everybody wants to make money out of this once art`ie, different, hobby.
SAD REALLY!

[Kentish Falconry]

I have purchased birds from many big breeders in the past Jones, Fox, Creese ect....All have surplied top class specimens.
Last year a friend bought a gyr x peregrine from falcon mews. He exspected his bird to have been bred by Richard and Peter but it wasn`t, just bought in for a sale I quess?
The thing is, im abit old school when everybody helped each other in the small cycle of Falconry buddys. Now as most things in the moden world everybody wants to make money out of this once art`ie, different, hobby.
SAD REALLY!

I will bet none of them shipped the birds you had bred to a customer in the Middle East and took no profit from them except your smile
Terry

[FalconMews]

Hi All,

I can tell you now, that we have never bought in any gyr-peregrine hybrids and then re-sold them into UK falconers.

Over the last 5 years we have been under contract to supply all the Gyr-Peregrines bred at our facilaty to one client, so the only birds we were able to sell were our share of the young when we supplied another breeder with semen, and this has been explained to anyone asking us for a gyr-peregrine hybrid falcon. Most of the time it has been a lot easier just to say no, as financially we have not gained a cent out of the sale.

I suspect that what happened here, and without checking our files with the birds ring number, I can't be 100% sure is.

99% of the time the egg's from the other breeders are hatched by us, reared by us and then put in our hack pens, occasionally, a couple of chicks are left with our freinds imprint for rearing and then the chicks are moved into our Hack pen for finishing.

We always explain what the situation is and the truth is we have really tried not to sell birds into the UK, as we already have a sale in the Middle East for as many Gyr-Peregrines as we produce.

I don't really think that any of the above needs to be explained, and this will be the last time I will explain any of our buisiness, as we don't need to justify ourselves to anyone other than the person we sell a bird too.

As to showing foreign customers birds prior to a sales day:-
1. We have not had a sales day for four years
2. Many of the falcons were sold months before hatching
3. The Gentleman from Kuwait that the post sent by Gos2 was aimed at, has never been to our facilaty, but flys one of our falcons which was wild hacked in Dubai.
4.Over twenty birds were collected on each sales weekend by British falconers who got off their arse's and chose their birds in the weeks leading up to the sales.



Many Thanks

Richard Hill

[Misty]

I don't really think that any of the above needs to be explained, and this will be the last time I will explain any of our buisiness, as we don't need to justify ourselves to anyone other than the person we sell a bird too.
Richard Hill

Can I just say that I, as yet, have not bought birds from falcon mews so I have no axe to grind either way. I do feel that it is about time all those breeder-bashers stopped and thought a little. Without these large breeders looking for better ways to produce even higher quality birds for the market here and abroad, we would all suffer as the only birds available would most likely be from all the amateur breeders putting birds together without any research into the background of the parents birds to ensure siblings etc are not paired up. These large breeders ensure the gene pools are kept to the highest quality importing fresh bloodlines etc. So, every now and again some-one falls foul and has a gripe. what business is there where this doesn't happen. Even terry, I seem to recall, had postings on a recent thread where he had been vilified by a member who was unhappy with his bird and the reason given was quite ridiculous. It was just an excusse to have a dig, quite unnecessary and damaging for no good reason. It happens to everyone. Anyone who states they have not had a customer gripe once in a while is a liar.
All you falconers who own birds. Where do you think they came from? Stop moaning about breeders unless you have a genuine complaint about the conditions the birds are being bred in, or, you know of a breeder who is unscrupulous and sells rubbish purely for profit with no thought of the birds' welfare.
Stop knocking breeders without just cause. This can cause untold harm to their business and is not fair, whoever the breeder is.
and no, falcon mews, you have no need to justify.

[Pendleside]

Keith,

I now see the reason your trying to breed Red Naped Shaheens or Barbarys, not for profit but to supply the common or garden Uk falconer - just so he doesn't have to pinch one from the wild :lol:

I'll put the coffee pot on - do you want to drink it or just smell it :supz:

Jim

pmsl:lol: :lol:

pete.

[AhmedQ8]

I have purchased birds from many big breeders in the past Jones, Fox, Creese ect....All have surplied top class specimens.
Last year a friend bought a gyr x peregrine from falcon mews. He exspected his bird to have been bred by Richard and Peter but it wasn`t, just bought in for a sale I quess?
The thing is, im abit old school when everybody helped each other in the small cycle of Falconry buddys. Now as most things in the moden world everybody wants to make money out of this once art`ie, different, hobby.
SAD REALLY!

I doubt it. I speck with bader aldeeri the gay how import the falcons from Jones, Fox, Creese, Richard and Peter.
he told me Richard and Peter don’t risk there name in the market bay doing something like this , because they have enough bead to splay. all sow they help same breeders bay selling there falcons but they will till you before you parches the falcon if the falcon from them or not .

[Misty]

Keith,

I now see the reason your trying to breed Red Naped Shaheens or Barbarys, not for profit but to supply the common or garden Uk falconer - just so he doesn't have to pinch one from the wild :lol:

Jim

Isn't it possible he wants to do both???

[FalconMistress]

A bit bias but dont care

KENTISH FALCONRY:supz:

[OutFlying]

Isn't it possible he wants to do both???

I would hope so, but can't stand the whining and moaning - end of story, if you don't like what your doing THEN don't do it.

Jim.

[Misty]

I would hope so, but can't stand the whining and moaning - end of story, if you don't like what your doing THEN don't do it.

Jim.

you misunderstand, we don't moan about what we do, we moan about the people who constantly knock breeders for no reason. If a good breeder doesn't think a prospective purchaser is sufficiently qualified to purchase a bird, he doesn't sell them one. He doesn't sell it to them and then whine about them for ever more. Therefore, if anyone has a problem about a breeder, just don't buy from them. simple really. Just stop moaning

[Kentish Falconry]

Ahmed I don't think Bader will be too happy with you calling him Gay M8 :lol: please try to remember to use your spell checker before posting.

Peter and Richard supply top quality falcons all over the World and it is unfair to knock them in the odd incidence when something goes wrong.
All the big breeders, Richard & Peter, Martin Jones, Mark Robb & Sara, Nick Fox & Martyn Patterson, and others, myself included, spend an enormous amount of money each year trying to improve our stock and most of you would have a heart attack if you saw our food bills and electricity bills. But still we carry on and then get knocked for doing our best and producing the best birds we can with the stock that is available to us.
Like all the others mentioned I sell most of my birds in the Middle East this is becoming a hard market but we will cope with it, I have always had my door open to UK Falconers and if they want one of our birds I am happy to supply them with what they want even if it is at a lower price than I can get in the Middle East for the same bird simply because it takes all the hassle out of applying for Export CITES, arranging Health Checks and the actual shipping & Transport, so I find it far more beneficial to sell here in the UK. It also saves me sitting in the Middle East for months and listening to all the bullshit telling me to lower my prices, the biggest mistake is lowering your prices as the following year they use this as the starting point and try to negotiate the price down from there This is the Arab way and they mean no offence by it bartering is is a way of life but it is soul destroying after all the work that has gone into producing the birds in the first place.
So please Guy's can we stop knocking the breeders as without us you would not have a bird to hunt with.
Terry

[Redeye]

The only breeders i would really knock are those who continue to over supply the glut of harrishawks that keep coming onto the market. I recently saw someone who had the bird but didn't want to buy/ make or adapt any equipment other than a glove. He kept the food in the pocket of his hoody. The guy was a blxxdy joke. Sadly he is not the only one by a long shot.

Certain ones on this forum have been advertising for HH to make up breeding pairs recently.......WHY?

Before anyone gets on there high horse about HH bashing i'm not knocking HH's. They're good falconry birds but the over supply and low prices mean that even if the inital breeder trys to find them a decent home they will likely get moved on to someone less desirable in the near future.

So do your sport a favour and seperate HH pairs stop kidding yourselves that your breeding them to order or whatever, there is already enough to go round any genuine beginners coming thru. Prices may start to pick up again and people will once again have to make a commitment to the bird they want to fly.

[Misty]

The only breeders i would really knock are those who continue to over supply the glut of harrishawks that keep coming onto the market. I recently saw someone who had the bird but didn't want to buy/ make or adapt any equipment other than a glove. He kept the food in the pocket of his hoody. The guy was a blxxdy joke. Sadly he is not the only one by a long shot.

Certain ones on this forum have been advertising for HH to make up breeding pairs recently.......WHY?

Before anyone gets on there high horse about HH bashing i'm not knocking HH's. They're good falconry birds but the over supply and low prices mean that even if the inital breeder trys to find them a decent home they will likely get moved on to someone less desirable in the near future.

So do your sport a favour and seperate HH pairs stop kidding yourselves that your breeding them to order or whatever, there is already enough to go round any genuine beginners coming thru. Prices may start to pick up again and people will once again have to make a commitment to the bird they want to fly.

you cannot make such a wide sweeping statement, it is ridiculous. I am one of those recently (and still) advertising for a male Hh of breeding age to make up a pair. Why? I'll tell you. firstly, the male of the pair died of heart attack and I have a good egg-layer going to waste. secondly, I rarely advertise as all my HH chicks are supplied to order to falconry schools. My prices don't need to pick up as I refuse to drop them. A good quality bird deserves a realistic pricetag.
If we all stopped breeding HH's what will you fly instead, then will you want us to stop breeding something else as there are too many. I agree that there are many opportunist breeders shoving 2 harrises in a garage and selling the offspring to anyone who asks, but you will always get that and there is little way of stopping it apart from educating the purchasers. It is not the genuine breeders you need to stop, it is the buyers who buy from idiot breeders. No demand, no supply. simple!

[MickeyDredd]

No demand, no supply. simple!

less supply, greater demand, more selective who gets one...simple :wink:

[Redeye]

you cannot make such a wide sweeping statement, it is ridiculous. I am one of those recently (and still) advertising for a male Hh of breeding age to make up a pair. Why? I'll tell you. firstly, the male of the pair died of heart attack and I have a good egg-layer going to waste. secondly, I rarely advertise as all my HH chicks are supplied to order to falconry schools. My prices don't need to pick up as I refuse to drop them. A good quality bird deserves a realistic pricetag.
If we all stopped breeding HH's what will you fly instead, then will you want us to stop breeding something else as there are too many. I agree that there are many opportunist breeders shoving 2 harrises in a garage and selling the offspring to anyone who asks, but you will always get that and there is little way of stopping it apart from educating the purchasers. It is not the genuine breeders you need to stop, it is the buyers who buy from idiot breeders. No demand, no supply. simple!

I don't see it as riduculous - there is far too many HH being bred a simple fact. Even if they were all top notch birds it wouldn't stop this inalienable fact - too many birds!!
You will note i didn't say how to stop it - personally I don't believe it will, they'll probably end up at £100 or so in a few yrs. But as far as I am concerned individuals who are breeding or who seek to breed more HH's are doing falconry no favours. If you all stopped breeding HH's they would not be flogged on for peanuts, it would keep some of the idiots who buy them because they can from getting them etc.

What is the difference between a genuine breeder and an idiot breeder? I have seen birds bred by a supposed top notch breeder (not on IFF as far as i'm aware) with horrendous signs of inbreeding. If all the idiots fed quail/ rat and put them in nice pens would they become genuine overnight - would the problem go away?

[Kevin Massey]

Misty... just out of interest is you order book full?

[Misty]

as far as I know Kev, yes . (obviously I don't know what will be hatched and thrive until it happens.) Were you just asking or were you after something?

[MickeyDredd]

as far as I know Kev, yes . (obviously I don't know what will be hatched and thrive until it happens.) Were you just asking or were you after something?

I think he was just checking to see if he needed to keep any space on Falconry Classifieds for any surplus stock you might have! :butthead: :lol: :lol:

[Misty]

I think he was just checking to see if he needed to keep any space on Falconry Classifieds for any surplus stock you might have! :butthead: :lol: :lol:

of course, he's not going to have any free space with all those fighting to get on there, is he? :rolleyes:

[OutFlying]

you misunderstand, we don't moan about what we do, we moan about the people who constantly knock breeders for no reason. If a good breeder doesn't think a prospective purchaser is sufficiently qualified to purchase a bird, he doesn't sell them one. He doesn't sell it to them and then whine about them for ever more. Therefore, if anyone has a problem about a breeder, just don't buy from them. simple really. Just stop moaning

Where has the "we" come from ? - reread the thread from the beginning. YOU seem to be missing the point - breeding is like any other business, if you don't want to do then don't, if you can't make a profit then don't.


As I stated earlier good breeders need good customers - one without the other won't work.


Jim.

[SSL]

This whole debate started because one breeder thinks the Falconry world owes him something because he breeds hawks.

It owes him nothing but the price of the hawk or falcon he breeds.

Simple really.

Yes there are too many HHs bred, and probably will continue to be so while ever there is an easy few quid to be made doing it.

[OutFlying]

Spot on Steve.

[Kevin Massey]

as far as I know Kev, yes . (obviously I don't know what will be hatched and thrive until it happens.) Were you just asking or were you after something?


No Not after anything....Just unless you have outstripped what you can supply with orders, Then there would be no requirements to replace the lost male

[Misty]

No Not after anything....Just unless you have outstripped what you can supply with orders, Then there would be no requirements to replace the lost male

no, doesn't work like that, i have orders from year to year. I was including the normal clutch from that pair which is why it is desperate to get a male soon as I will not have enough for my requirements.
why does no-one hound falcon breeders like they do harris breeders? there are many many falcons sat on blocks doing absolutely nothing because the inexperienced falconer has thought it would be nice to have a falcon as a stage up and then found it is a whole different ballgame training one. usually they can't get the hang of the lure and after wrapping around their necks a few times or losing the falcon and having to get up at dawn to find it, they block them and that's where they stay.

[Kevin Massey]

why does no-one hound falcon breeders like they do harrises

I think its cos you dont see so many advertised in the free ads....or on the Asda clasified ads boards as you do with harrises

[SSL]

why does no-one hound falcon breeders like they do harrises

Some of them deserve hounding too I guess its just a statistics thing really.

[Ben C]

Out of interest and as a way of isolating out the poor breeders, has there ever been a code of conduct or some sort of set of standards put together independently by Blue Falcon, Kentish, M Jones, Falconmews etc etc.

Something which a person could look at like a kite mark or something????

[Kevin Massey]

Out of interest and as a way of isolating out the poor breeders, has there ever been a code of conduct or some sort of set of standards put together independently by Blue Falcon, Kentish, M Jones, Falconmews etc etc.

Something which a person could look at like a kite mark or something????


Ahhhhhhh But do they abide by these rules themselves:twisted:

[SSL]

Ahhhhhhh But do they abide by these rules themselves:twisted:

Funny you should say that... :roll:

[Ben C]

Well they would have to if it was self governing mate.....dunno, just a thought I had listening to all the guff being said.

[NICKYC]

have read all posts.cant beleive what some of you are saying, i have bought a number of falcons off peter and richard over the years including g/ps, i always found the falcons to be first class. and always on the end of the phone for any problems or advice. their set up is second to none. i have bought falcons off other well known breeders which have been sub-standard,but as this about who breeds the best i have to say falcon mews and colin pass in no particular order

[SSL]

Well they would have to if it was self governing mate.....dunno, just a thought I had listening to all the guff being said.

In theory a great idea... but we'll get the same old arguments, whose right, whose has the authority/experience to tell the old boys how it should be done.

[Ben C]

Yep.........poor bloody show. :evil: :evil:

[Kentish Falconry]

Out of interest and as a way of isolating out the poor breeders, has there ever been a code of conduct or some sort of set of standards put together independently by Blue Falcon, Kentish, M Jones, Falconmews etc etc.

Something which a person could look at like a kite mark or something????

Ben..........We are lucky to get the big breeders all together for the DEFRA meetings let alone get us to agree on a code of conduct in general the only thing we can all agree on is that we breed birds.
If you hunt with one of my birds then you will see the quality in them and the same goes for all the big breeders, we cannot afford to produce sub-standard Hawks & Falcons or we would soon be broke.
Terry

[QTR]

Because I have been in contact with UK breeders for the last 15 years. I remember the first breeder I have visited was Martin Jones back in 1992. Since that time I have started to contact most of the breeders in UK. Like Falcon Mews, Nick Fox, … etc.
I found out that they are doing a hard work during the year to produce a bird for falconers. I remember I have visited most of the sales weekend done by Falcon Mews for 3 years and Nick Fox for 1 year and Kentish Falconry for the first year, plus Iane Garlend with Mark Robe and Gary Wall once they did their first sales weekend in Iane's place. All that sales weekend done in UK I got an impression from them that they are not happy about the sales. This is why I imagine all of them they decide to stop that.
Also the important point of all of that is to judge who is the best breeder by giving quality birds with reasonable price and in good conditions. As I recall I have been dealing with Falcon Mews for the last 8 years and I would like to thank them here.
I remember once I start to deal with them, one of the birds I ordered was blind in one eye, and they didn't ship for me, I wasn't really sure about it until I visit them in the summer and I saw myself that falcon and it gave me more confident to continue dealing with them. Second incident one of the falcons they sent to me had a problem with peak, so one they know about it they send me a bird free of charge in the next year. In same time, I dealt with other breeders in UK and he sent me a falcon with bumble foot in both feet and when I asked him he said I don't know anything about it.
These are the 2 incidents that I have encountered and the replies I got from the breeders which they are very completely different. Also there more stories, but there is no time mention it.
In summary, what I would like to say in general is that this is how we can judge the best breeders, pair in mind the competition in The Gulf is getting very difficult every year and the only one will survive who gives better service in everything.
In the end this is my opinion as a falconer.

All the best,
Aziz

[PeelsBells]

Because I have been in contact with UK breeders for the last 15 years. I remember the first breeder I have visited was Martin Jones back in 1992. Since that time I have started to contact most of the breeders in UK. Like Falcon Mews, Nick Fox, … etc.
I found out that they are doing a hard work during the year to produce a bird for falconers. I remember I have visited most of the sales weekend done by Falcon Mews for 3 years and Nick Fox for 1 year and Kentish Falconry for the first year, plus Iane Garlend with Mark Robe and Gary Wall once they did their first sales weekend in Iane's place. All that sales weekend done in UK I got an impression from them that they are not happy about the sales. This is why I imagine all of them they decide to stop that.
Also the important point of all of that is to judge who is the best breeder by giving quality birds with reasonable price and in good conditions. As I recall I have been dealing with Falcon Mews for the last 8 years and I would like to thank them here.
I remember once I start to deal with them, one of the birds I ordered was blind in one eye, and they didn't ship for me, I wasn't really sure about it until I visit them in the summer and I saw myself that falcon and it gave me more confident to continue dealing with them. Second incident one of the falcons they sent to me had a problem with peak, so one they know about it they send me a bird free of charge in the next year. In same time, I dealt with other breeders in UK and he sent me a falcon with bumble foot in both feet and when I asked him he said I don't know anything about it.
These are the 2 incidents that I have encountered and the replies I got from the breeders which they are very completely different. Also there more stories, but there is no time mention it.
In summary, what I would like to say in general is that this is how we can judge the best breeders, pair in mind the competition in The Gulf is getting very difficult every year and the only one will survive who gives better service in everything.
In the end this is my opinion as a falconer.

All the best,
Aziz

I feel you are getting good standard by them as you are spending as much money as some of us earn in a year:wink:

[Judd Casper]

I just wonder who would you name the best breeders in the UK country? Tom Stafford, Nick Fox, anybody else to add to the list?Has someone put you up to asking this question........I can see its the start of the silly season again.

Sam

[Valdi99]

Has someone put you up to asking this question........I can see its the start of the silly season again.Sam

Nobody, mate. I just wrote my personal opinion and wanted to know who else deserves for such name. Beeing in UK (in a past) I got to know several great breeders. Its pitty I cant recall the names all of them...

[Yeoman]

I just wonder who would you name the best breeders in the UK country? Tom Stafford, Nick Fox, anybody else to add to the list?

Try Bryn armthorpe falcons, think he bought some birds off falcon mews

[Phill Gibbons]

have read all posts.cant beleive what some of you are saying, i have bought a number of falcons off peter and richard over the years including g/ps, i always found the falcons to be first class. and always on the end of the phone for any problems or advice. their set up is second to none. i have bought falcons off other well known breeders which have been sub-standard,but as this about who breeds the best i have to say falcon mews and colin pass in no particular orderI Agree Gilly Has never let me down had some wonderfull falcons off these guys Petes as tight as cammels ass in a sand storm but richard is a little more negotiable wen he feels like it.

[Crawford]

We have bred 1,000 registerable falcons with A.I. in the last five years alone, can you tell me anyone else in the UK who has bred that many falcons with A.I. in the same period?

Not so many breeders would carry on pulling eggs, "x16 I believe you got off one gyr x saker"........hope I wasn`t the owner of that 16th chick!!!!! MONEY, MONEY..........

[AhmedQ8]

Ahmed I don't think Bader will be too happy with you calling him Gay M8 :lol: please try to remember to use your spell checker before posting.

Terry

sorry for may poor eng :-|

to bader :goodman:

[Ben C]

I can see its the start of the silly season again.




Ain't that the truth......:lol: :lol: :lol:

[SSL]

Try Bryn armthorpe falcons, think he bought some birds off falcon mews

PMSL :finga:

[PeelsBells]

Not so many breeders would carry on pulling eggs, "x16 I believe you got off one gyr x saker"........hope I wasn`t the owner of that 16th chick!!!!! MONEY, MONEY..........

Glad to see they have the birds welfare at heart.:roll: They did the same to the pair of harris hawks i sold them. If i new what i new now the birds wouldn't have gone to them. But i let my heart rule my head and look were that got me. A small Russian/Finnish gos.:lol: LOL

[Crawford]

Changed my Avatar today. Took this photo through the spyhole of one of my Peales aviarys and couldn`t believe the result....Almost a professional photo from a quick snap!:rolleyes:

[Kevin Massey]

gary cook small time but great gosses

i-m-o the best type of breeder, only bad thing is, always sold out:supz:

[Judd Casper]

Changed my Avatar today. Took this photo through the spyhole of one of my Peales aviarys and couldn`t believe the result....Almost a professional photo from a quick snap!:rolleyes:Can we see the full size photo its looks a nice falcon,and what do you fly them at?

Sam

[Natch]

i-m-o the best type of breeder, only bad thing is, always sold out:supz:last year 8 finnish goshawk,,,,,, and 7 pergines,,,,,that,s a do me this year again8-)

[Moritz]

the best breeder is allways sold out true, that is why only a hadfull of ppl in this coutry ever get his birds. and in the futur it is going to be none.

moritz

[MickeyDredd]

the best breeder is allways sold out true, that is why only a hadfull of ppl in this coutry ever get his birds. and in the futur it is going to be none.

moritz

eh??

[Kevin Massey]

last year 8 finnish goshawk,,,,,, and 7 pergines,,,,,that,s a do me this year again8-)


And Amongst the best about :supz: ....Just a shame you were sold out a year ago:roll: :wink:

[Misty]

the best breeder is allways sold out true, that is why only a hadfull of ppl in this coutry ever get his birds. and in the futur it is going to be none.

moritz

why??

[Moritz]

coz nobody is prepared to pay the price that his birds are worth.

mo

[As The Falcon Her Bells]

Hate to argue with you Mo, but I had some really good buyers and exceptional falconers of the forum, Hacker just to name one.
For good breeders, I think it depends on what the buyer expect from the breeder. Its the buyers who decide who is a good breeder really.

[Misty]

coz nobody is prepared to pay the price that his birds are worth.

mo

there are always buyers prepared to pay a premium for quality

[SSL]

there are always buyers prepared to pay a premium for quality

Correct. :supz:

[OutFlying]

Spot on Steve,

Good service requires good customers - they go both hand in hand.

Jim.


Looks like we've gone full circle :supz:

[Misty]

Looks like we've gone full circle :supz:

most things do:supz:

[RWR]

There is one person that no one has spoken of and that is Jeremy Edwards. He is a very good breeder of finnish goshawks Mick Kane has some of Jeremys birds. I have ordered a imprint female from him It will be the sister to one of Mick Kanes breeding females.

[Pendleside]

There is one person that no one has spoken of and that is Jeremy Edwards. He is a very good breeder of finnish goshawks Mick Kane has some of Jeremys birds. I have ordered a imprint female from him I will be the sister to one of Mick Kanes breeding females.

r.e. signature

not purer yet russel .
remove that libellous remark.
you cannot substantiate this claim for a few months .:lol:
i on the other hand can verify my signature 8-)

[Yeoman]

John shipley breeds cracking goshawks ,all finnish dont think he breeds any german ,but could be wrong:supz:

[Kentish Falconry]

r.e. signature

not purer yet russel .
remove that libellous remark.
you cannot substantiate this claim for a few months .:lol:
i on the other hand can verify my signature 8-)

Round one let battle commence :lol:

[Pendleside]

pure finnish [/QUOTE] I will be the sister to one of Mick Kanes breeding females.[/QUOTE]

oh really.:roll:
and will you be standing for insemination or will it be forced ?
or maybe you might prefer natural copulation with the male of your choice ! :lol:

[MickeyDredd]

I will be the sister to one of Mick Kanes breeding females.

oh really.:roll:
and will you be standing for insemination or will it be forced ?:lol:[/quote]

Cant wait for him to post those pics!! :lol:

[Pendleside]

oh really.:roll:
and will you be standing for insemination or will it be forced ?

Cant wait for him to post those pics!! :lol:[/QUOTE]

gilly's nether regions this morning.....what next ? :rolleyes:
i think he needs something to occupy him during the moult or he may be spending next season at her majesty's . :lol:

[Kentish Falconry]

Cant wait for him to post those pics!! :lol:

gilly's nether regions this morning.....what next ? :rolleyes:
i think he needs something to occupy him during the moult or he may be spending next season at her majesty's . :lol:[/QUOTE]

Won't we all I have reason to join him :lol:

[Bill]

Can I just say that I, as yet, have not bought birds from falcon mews so I have no axe to grind either way. I do feel that it is about time all those breeder-bashers stopped and thought a little. Without these large breeders looking for better ways to produce even higher quality birds for the market here and abroad, we would all suffer as the only birds available would most likely be from all the amateur breeders putting birds together without any research into the background of the parents birds to ensure siblings etc are not paired up. These large breeders ensure the gene pools are kept to the highest quality importing fresh bloodlines etc. So, every now and again some-one falls foul and has a gripe. what business is there where this doesn't happen. Even terry, I seem to recall, had postings on a recent thread where he had been vilified by a member who was unhappy with his bird and the reason given was quite ridiculous. It was just an excusse to have a dig, quite unnecessary and damaging for no good reason. It happens to everyone. Anyone who states they have not had a customer gripe once in a while is a liar.
All you falconers who own birds. Where do you think they came from? Stop moaning about breeders unless you have a genuine complaint about the conditions the birds are being bred in, or, you know of a breeder who is unscrupulous and sells rubbish purely for profit with no thought of the birds' welfare.
Stop knocking breeders without just cause. This can cause untold harm to their business and is not fair, whoever the breeder is.
and no, falcon mews, you have no need to justify.

Well said mate.
Got to your post and haven't read further. Can't stand the ********.

[Yeoman]

Well said mate.
Got to your post and haven't read further. Can't stand the ********.

I think i stronlie agraey but could be wrong

[Misty]

I think i stronlie agraey but could be wrong

uh?:confused: :confused:

[Kevin Massey]

uh?:confused: :confused:

Its getting very boreing now:roll:

[Misty]

Its getting very boreing now:roll:

I didn't understand what he meant? Did you?

[Yeoman]

I didn't understand what he meant? Did you?

me neither:confused:

[Misty]

me neither:confused:

whatever you're on, I want some:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Yeoman]

whatever you're on, I want some:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

just coffe pal :D

[Misty]

just coffe pal :D

you must make yours much stronger than me:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[HorseBox]

Disagree with you there. A lot happens behind the scenes (Ask Terry - sure he'll elaborate). Without the big breeders I'm sure falconry would be much harder to practise legally in the U.K. now.
i agree with steven lambert ? why would it be moor difficult to fly your birds it cant be as difficult as fox Hunting and i still keep making an appearance
I'm sure we all support field sports but they don't just keep up the fight because they love the grate unwashed they have there own sport and customers to look after wish every body good luck with there breeding

[HorseBox]

moneyCan I just say that I, as yet, have not bought birds from falcon mews so I have no axe to grind either way. I do feel that it is about time all those breeder-bashers stopped and thought a little. Without these large breeders looking for better ways to produce even higher quality birds for the market here and abroad, we would all suffer as the only birds available would most likely be from all the amateur breeders putting birds together without any research into the background of the parents birds to ensure siblings etc are not paired up. These large breeders ensure the gene pools are kept to the highest quality importing fresh bloodlines etc. So, every now and again some-one falls foul and has a gripe. what business is there where this doesn't happen. Even terry, I seem to recall, had postings on a recent thread where he had been vilified by a member who was unhappy with his bird and the reason given was quite ridiculous. It was just an excusse to have a dig, quite unnecessary and damaging for no good reason. It happens to everyone. Anyone who states they have not had a customer gripe once in a while is a liar.
All you falconers who own birds. Where do you think they came from? Stop moaning about breeders unless you have a genuine complaint about the conditions the birds are being bred in, or, you know of a breeder who is unscrupulous and sells rubbish purely for profit with no thought of the birds' welfare.
Stop knocking breeders without just cause. This can cause untold harm to their business and is not fair, whoever the breeder is.
and no, falcon mews, you have no need to justify.
I am not breeder bashing as i am involved in a couple of breeding programs some avian some equine and believe me the sums are staggering in both stock property time and work you get one foal per mare after 12 months it has to live to start with then it has to be a good one then it has to stay alive i am sure you get the gist with not grate rewards IE one against 4/6 eggs how ever we chose to do it so please don't set your selves up as marters its your choice to do it and i haven't seen anybody giving the birds away and that's from some one that sees both sides and to imply that armature breeders have neither knowledge funds integrity or dedication i find arrogant to say the least after all who came first the armature or the expert

[Misty]

money
I am not breeder bashing as i am involved in a couple of breeding programs some avian some equine and believe me the sums are staggering in both stock property time and work you get one foal per mare after 12 months it has to live to start with then it has to be a good one then it has to stay alive i am sure you get the gist with not grate rewards IE one against 4/6 eggs how ever we chose to do it so please don't set your selves up as marters its your choice to do it and i haven't seen anybody giving the birds away and that's from some one that sees both sides and to imply that armature breeders have neither knowledge funds integrity or dedication i find arrogant to say the least after all who came first the armature or the expert

I can find nowhere in my posting that I knock amateur breeders. Why would I, I am one.:roll: I am knocking people who knock any breeders, unless they are bad breeders, keeping birds in poor conditions and selling to anyone to make a quick buck. Perhaps you would like to read my post again a little more slowly.

[HorseBox]

I can find nowhere in my posting that I knock amateur breeders. Why would I, I am one.:roll: I am knocking people who knock any breeders, unless they are bad breeders, keeping birds in poor conditions and selling to anyone to make a quick buck. Perhaps you would like to read my post again a little more slowly.
FAIR COMENT

[Tim Laycock]

i agree with steven lambert ? why would it be moor difficult to fly your birds it cant be as difficult as fox Hunting and i still keep making an appearance
I'm sure we all support field sports but they don't just keep up the fight because they love the grate unwashed they have there own sport and customers to look after wish every body good luck with there breeding
If the numbers of raptors were not produced in captivity, Defra would no longer be able to offer the old chestnut about captive breeding negating a wild take.

Every muppet and his dog would not own a harris and the UK would be a better place to practice falconry for it.

Not stating a grievance with breeders, just simple fact.

[Yeoman]

If the numbers of raptors were not produced in captivity, Defra would no longer be able to offer the old chestnut about captive breeding negating a wild take.

Every muppet and his dog would not own a harris and the UK would be a better place to practice falconry for it.

Not stating a grievance with breeders, just simple fact.

Well said

[Misty]

If the numbers of raptors were not produced in captivity, Defra would no longer be able to offer the old chestnut about captive breeding negating a wild take.

Every muppet and his dog would not own a harris and the UK would be a better place to practice falconry for it.

Not stating a grievance with breeders, just simple fact.

so what do you suggest?

[Tim Laycock]

so what do you suggest?

I dont believe I ventured a suggestion or implied I had one.

[Kentish Falconry]

If the numbers of raptors were not produced in captivity, Defra would no longer be able to offer the old chestnut about captive breeding negating a wild take.

Every muppet and his dog would not own a harris and the UK would be a better place to practice falconry for it.

Not stating a grievance with breeders, just simple fact.

Why start on Harris hawkers again Tim? :confused: Each to their own M8 you are a Gos man through and through nothing wrong with that but others prefer their Harris Hawks or Falcons why does it always seem to some people that they are lesser Falconers for it. This problem also exists with Game Hawkers and Rook Hawkers each believing that one is better than the other.
Yes Harris Hawks do tend to be the birds we see the most problems with as most novices start off with them some progress to Goshawks or Falcons while some simply love their HH and stick with them as they suit their style of Falconry. Look at Phillip Glazier he had flown and hunted all sorts but his favourite bird was Islay a Harris Hawk, I have had to sit through hours of films of her while he proudly told us more about her.
What really worries me though are breeders who knock Harris Hawkers and then expect to be able to sell the Harris hawks they breed, if they feel that way then they should stop breeding them.
I am not knocking you for your views Tim, I am simply confused as to why you see them in this light
Terry :D

[Tim Laycock]

You know full well that Im not starting on the Harris hawkers as a whole.
Just the element we all despise!
Show me where I insinuated that Harris flyers as a whole are lesser falconers and I will pull my head out of my arse and delete it! :rolleyes:

I dont have anything intelligent to say to the rest, Its all been covered and my views are well documented here :yawinkle:

[Kevin Massey]

You raise a good issue there Tim, Seems ironic that in falconry we breed so many while so many are being killed and even culled in the wild

[Kentish Falconry]

You know full well that Im not starting on the Harris hawkers as a whole.
Just the element we all despise!
Show me where I insinuated that Harris flyers as a whole are lesser falconers and I will pull my head out of my arse and delete it! :rolleyes:

I dont have anything intelligent to say to the rest, Its all been covered and my views are well documented here :yawinkle:

I know your views Tim and you are entitled to them but some people just like Harris Hawks full stop. Even BigJoe Joe spent years hunting his Harris hawks and was very successful with them, he then went on to a Falcon and then a Gos, his Falconry has progressed in the way that he wants it to but you don't hear him belittling Harris Hawks do you? Just out of interest Tim have you ever hunted with a HH? if you did then just think back to the pleasure it gave you at the time I know that once you have hunted with a Gos then you see things differently but not all Harris Hawkers are novices or dipsticks. When hunted properly a HH is a fine tool to carry on Falconry.

[Kevin Massey]

Why start on Harris hawkers again Tim?

Dont see where he has Terry, But there again at the moment you'll only say I am siding with Tim, Or convinced him to say it:roll:

[Tim Laycock]

You raise a good issue there Tim, Seems ironic that in falconry we breed so many while so many are being killed and even culled in the wild

Thanks Kev,
I dont think anyone could question the validity of post #144 :yawinkle:

[Kevin Massey]

Tim have you ever hunted with a HH?.

I have witnessed this to a very high level.

[Misty]

I dont believe I ventured a suggestion or implied I had one.

No you didn't venture a suggestion but it might be nice if you did. I know there are too many HH being bred by indiscrimate breeders but unless you can come up with a suggestion I can't see the point of knocking them all the time.
You won't stop rogue breeders so the only thing to do is educate the buyers to only buy from ethical breeders.

[Tim Laycock]

I know your views Tim and you are entitled to them but some people just like Harris Hawks full stop. Even BigJoe Joe spent years hunting his Harris hawks and was very successful with them, he then went on to a Falcon and then a Gos, his Falconry has progressed in the way that he wants it to but you don't hear him belittling Harris Hawks do you? Just out of interest Tim have you ever hunted with a HH? if you did then just think back to the pleasure it gave you at the time I know that once you have hunted with a Gos then you see things differently but not all Harris Hawkers are novices or dipsticks. When hunted properly a HH is a fine tool to carry on Falconry.


Once again I did not dig at Harris flyers in general and yes I have flown a HH, intermewed it for two seasons also!

NEVER AGAIN!
Three seasons of this.....http://www.phpbber.com/phpbb/images/smiles/punchballs.gif (javascript:emoticon(':********:')) http://www.phpbber.com/phpbb/images/smiles/punchballs.gif (javascript:emoticon(':********:')) http://www.phpbber.com/phpbb/images/smiles/punchballs.gif (javascript:emoticon(':********:'))
All and sundry are welcone to them but this is not the core issue I was talking about

[Tim Laycock]

No you didn't venture a suggestion but it might be nice if you did. I know there are too many HH being bred by indiscrimate breeders but unless you can come up with a suggestion I can't see the point of knocking them all the time.
You won't stop rogue breeders so the only thing to do is educate the buyers to only buy from ethical breeders.

Your flawed suggestion is precisely the reason I have no solution to offer.
The whole thing is a mess that will not improve. :(

[Kentish Falconry]

Dont see where he has Terry, But there again at the moment you'll only say I am siding with Tim, Or convinced him to say it:roll:

I am saying nothing of the sort Kevin and you know it :D

Tim you said, "Every muppet and his dog would not own a harris and the UK would be a better place to practice falconry for it."
I have said you are entitled to your views and I am not knocking you for it all I am saying is I am confused as to why you consider Harris Hawkers to be Muppet's. Every one had to start somewhere I was lucky and did not even see a Harris Hawk until I had been a falconer for nearly 10 years and what I saw I liked, none of us had any idea at that time just how successful they would be at that time. Yes there are too many HH being bred and yes there are elements finding their way into Falconry because of them that we could do without but never the less in the right hands they are good birds.
Terry :D

[Kevin Massey]

I was lucky and did not even see a Harris Hawk until I had been a falconer for nearly 10 years and what I saw I liked,

Terry far from telling you how to suck eggs, However the harris seems to be the most prolific hawk/falcon in free ads.

Its also not the norm for them to be bread to your high standards either, And without you sounding big headed or anything must agree with this:!:

[Tim Laycock]

I am saying nothing of the sort Kevin and you know it :D

Tim you said, "Every muppet and his dog would not own a harris and the UK would be a better place to practice falconry for it."
I have said you are entitled to your views and I am not knocking you for it all I am saying is I am confused as to why you consider Harris Hawkers to be Muppet's. Every one had to start somewhere I was lucky and did not even see a Harris Hawk until I had been a falconer for nearly 10 years and what I saw I liked, none of us had any idea at that time just how successful they would be at that time. Yes there are too many HH being bred and yes there are elements finding their way into Falconry because of them that we could do without but never the less in the right hands they are good birds.
Terry :D

Terry the stereotype is undeniable as well you are aware.

Stop shaking this like a dog with a rag, you have your answer!

As you have stated you are aware of my views, What do you hope to achieve here?

[Claire]

If the numbers of raptors were not produced in captivity, Defra would no longer be able to offer the old chestnut about captive breeding negating a wild take.

Every muppet and his dog would not own a harris and the UK would be a better place to practice falconry for it.

Not stating a grievance with breeders, just simple fact.

I am saying nothing of the sort Kevin and you know it :D

Tim you said, "Every muppet and his dog would not own a harris and the UK would be a better place to practice falconry for it."
I have said you are entitled to your views and I am not knocking you for it all I am saying is I am confused as to why you consider Harris Hawkers to be Muppet's. Every one had to start somewhere I was lucky and did not even see a Harris Hawk until I had been a falconer for nearly 10 years and what I saw I liked, none of us had any idea at that time just how successful they would be at that time. Yes there are too many HH being bred and yes there are elements finding their way into Falconry because of them that we could do without but never the less in the right hands they are good birds.
Terry :D
The way I interpreted BB's post was that muppets own harris hawks, because that is the bird that is easiest to obtain and they can ponce around pretending to be a falconer without putting much effort in, he did not say that harris hawkers were muppets or that everyone who owns them are muppets, It is true that they are the bird of choice for poeple who just want some kind of status, I'm not slating harris's, I love them and am hoping to get one this year, many people fly harris hawks well but there are more people flying harris's who shouldn't than any other species except all those who KEEP owls (I mean don't fly them there)

[Kentish Falconry]

Terry the stereotype is undeniable as well you are aware.

Stop shaking this like a dog with a rag, you have your answer!

As you have stated you are aware of my views, What do you hope to achieve here?

Tim I don't think you are reading my posts properly and I am not shaking anything like a Dog with a Rag I simply wanted you to answer a question and you all go on the defensive about it thinking I am attacking you or your views that is not the case at all. I am not looking for confrontation or having a pop at you at all.
All I am asking you to do is remember back to when you were hunting your HH how you personally felt when you were sucessfull in the field in front of your M8's, did it not make you feel proud? Other falconers get the same feeling as well, you progressed onto Goshawks and that is great as we know it is what you want out of Falconry and I whish you well with it.
Terry

[Misty]

Until someone can come up with a foolproof way of stopping unscrupulous breeders from churning out excess HH's and a way of educating serious newbie (or otherwise) falconers to avoid these gardenshed breeders, this thread will go round in circles :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Redeye]

Harris hawks in the right hands are great as are gos's, longwings etc and a credit to falconry.

Harris hawks in the wrong hands are bad and detrimental to falconry, as are gos's, longwings etc

Sadly the numbers of harris hawks in the wrong hands continues to rise due to over supply and subsequent cheap prices.

[Liam Fensome]

Harrishawks in the right hands are great as are gos's, longwings etc and a credit to falconry.

Harrishawks in the wrong hands are bad and detrimental to falconry, as are gos's, longwings etc

Sadly the numbers of harris hawks in the wrong hands continues to rise due to over supply and subsequent cheap prices.

Great post
atb
liam

[Kentish Falconry]

The way I interpreted BB's post was that muppets own harris hawks, because that is the bird that is easiest to obtain and they can ponce around pretending to be a falconer without putting much effort in, he did not say that harris hawkers were muppets or that everyone who owns them are muppets, It is true that they are the bird of choice for poeple who just want some kind of status, I'm not slating harris's, I love them and am hoping to get one this year, many people fly harris hawks well but there are more people flying harris's who shouldn't than any other species except all those who KEEP owls (I mean don't fly them there)

Claire I have already stated that there are too many HH being bred and this means they are falling into the wrong hands and bringing the undesirable element into our sport because some people sell their HH for next to nothing and put no thought into how they are being bred. I see HH being offered for sale at lower prices than I can produce them for, what is the answer do I cut down on the quality of food I give my birds or do I stop breeding them all together. I have made it clear on the Forum before that I will still breed HH and I will fulfill orders for them that I already have the rest will be exported and if that market then dries up I will consider my options again. I have no vested interest in HH for the foreseeable future in the UK so I have nothing to gain from protecting them or singing their praises.
Terry :D

[Claire]

in my opinion to drop your prices would make matters worse, there isn't much good breeders can do about the situation except know that with a proper price charged for a well bred hawk, your birds are less likely to end up in the hands of muppets.

[Tim Laycock]

Tim I don't think you are reading my posts properly and I am not shaking anything like a Dog with a Rag I simply wanted you to answer a question and you all go on the defensive about it thinking I am attacking you or your views that is not the case at all. I am not looking for confrontation or having a pop at you at all.
All I am asking you to do is remember back to when you were hunting your HH how you personally felt when you were sucessfull in the field in front of your M8's, did it not make you feel proud? Other falconers get the same feeling as well, you progressed onto Goshawks and that is great as we know it is what you want out of Falconry and I whish you well with it.
Terry

I misreading nothing Terry.
I made a statment that was entirely facual about my views and you turned it into slating all HHs and flyers therof, then you proceeded to ask the same question that was irrelevent to my meaning repeatedly.

To be honest, I found what I could achive with a HH pityfull and cant ever honestly state I was proud of it.
HHs are like beans, I have no taste for them. Many do.

<btw> I regressed from shortwings into flying a HH, I did not progress into it and then move onto true hawks :rolleyes:

[Misty]

in my opinion to drop your prices would make matters worse, there isn't much good breeders can do about the situation except know that with a proper price charged for a well bred hawk, your birds are less likely to end up in the hands of muppets.

My prices will not drop. I do my best to ensure my hawks go to suitable falconers and i grill them thoroughly before purchase, but you can never be 100% certain. All i can do is my best.

[Tim Laycock]

This thread could do with splitting or sweeping up.
I will not do it due to the conflicting position I find myself in. :roll:

[Kentish Falconry]

I misreading nothing Terry.
I made a statment that was entirely facual about my views and you turned it into slating all HHs and flyers therof, then you proceeded to ask the same question that was irrelevent to my meaning repeatedly.

To be honest, I found what I could achive with a HH pityfull and cant ever honestly state I was proud of it.
HHs are like beans, I have no taste for them. Many do.

<btw> I regressed from shortwings into flying a HH, I did not progress into it and then move onto true hawks :rolleyes:

Tim you are totally misreading what I was saying all I wanted was an answer and you gave it of sorts.
If you didn't like HH then it is a good thing that you moved onto Goshawks as you would probably have thrown the towel in and given up Falconry for good.
My intention was to get some interest going on this thread but it would appear that you have come to the conclusion that I am attacking you, again you are reaching the wrong conclusions but I think it may be better if I say no more on the subject
Terry :D

[Tim Laycock]

Terry, you know what Im like :rolleyes:

I think its pretty obvious I dont think your attacking me!

You asked a probing question, I repeatedly answered it.
It seemed as though that was not enough.

[Kevin Massey]

Ok enough now....this is going around and around and getting no where.


BACK TO THREAD

Please:supz:

[Crawford]

Hi this is a pic of my female peales

[Crawford]

And this is the unrelated male Peales she`s in with. He is 4 and the female is 3. He has just started making a scrape, fingers crossed.