AI Falcons

[Kevin Massey]

I have been asking Sara As The Falcon Her Bells (http://www.falconryforum.co.uk/member.php?u=1167) To open a thread and share some of her exploits and experiences, Maybe a diary of this seasons AI Program:!:

Although not my thing I have always found it interesting as I'm sure others do too....

Never know maybe some of the other breeders may have a bit to input too:supz:

[Hound]

good idea i would love to know more about ai

[SpugHawk]

Seems like first class idea to me

Rob

[Shaun Byrne]

Good idea Kev, this is my first year attempting AI so I'll be watching this thread closely:supz:

How far on are the birds at the moment Sara?

I have a Lugger and a Saker scraped and standing well, the Peres are no where near yet.

[Intek Hosting]

I think its a delightfull idea to have someone with Sarah's experiences and humility doing a thread like this.
Good on you girl, look forward to seeing your posts.

[MitchellBrad]

I'd love to read this. Don't do it anymore but there is still stuff I could learn.

Brad

[Hacker]

Does anybody inseminate the falcon with more than one type of semen during the same cycle.
ie,Pere semen into say a saker for the first couple of eggs followed by gyr semen for the next couple of eggs to give a mixed clutch or would it be to hit and miss knowing that the semen is stored in pockets within the females oviduct at the junction of the cloaca.

[Intek Hosting]

ATFHB, if youre looking for places to start on what must be a very complex topic to discuss on this medium, I'm quite interested in the storage methods used.

Most specifically I'm intestested in the temperatures that the semen is stored at.
I've read that you need to avoid shock changes in temperature but how is this achieved?
Do you bring the semen donor into a room at the correct ambient temperature, collect the sample, check it for quality on the microscope (I assume this test sample is lost and cant be used to inseminate a bird??)

How do you get the semen extender to the correct temperature so that it doesnt shock the semen when the two are mixed?

How would you then keep the semen at the optimum temperature between collection and insemination. Also how do you keep it from cooling when you go out to inseminate the bird?

I'll post some other questions as the thread progresses.

[Liam Fensome]

Looking forward to this thread it could help a few people who are intrested in a.i

[Intek Hosting]

Anyone tell me how long you can actually store semen for AI purposes.
I would imagine cryogenic cooling would be impractical for most AI breeders, but how long could you store a sample at its optimal temperature.

Can it be refrigerated for example? or would the cooling and then heating process damage the semen?
If you could refrigerate, would you need to bring the sample back to the bird's body temperature or could it be inseminated at a lower temperature?

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

The most important thing as a starting point to any AI project is to have semen available. May sound silly but its true, Semen first eggs second. There are a few who have females producing eggs far and away before they have semen. You are then in shtuck unless you can buy vast ammounts or have good friends who are willing to give or at least supply semen. I myself whent down this route some time ago.

[RedNoseK9]

This is a very interesting topic and many falconers can benefit we all know sarah and terry to be among the top breeders in the uk and value their advice and knowledge so lets leave the advice and knowledge to them and opinions of who u think is better whatever who cares buy your bird where you want and keep opinions in your heads.

Sarah and Terry i as a falconer respect both of you as two of top breeders in the uk and value highly all the experiance u can offer so hopefully this can be the new start of the thread and it will stay on topic with valuble input from here

[Liam Fensome]

The most important thing as a starting point to any AI project is to have semen available. May sound silly but its true, Semen first eggs second. There are a few who have females producing eggs far and away before they have semen. You are then in shtuck unless you can buy vast ammounts or have good friends who are willing to give or at least supply semen. I myself whent down this route some time ago.

very true i was told to get the male first year the female next year and then the year after get all your equipment e.g incubators

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

very true i was told to get the male first year the female next year and then the year after get all your equipment e.g incubators
Not bad advice at all ther Liam.

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

Does anybody inseminate the falcon with more than one type of semen during the same cycle.
ie,Pere semen into say a saker for the first couple of eggs followed by gyr semen for the next couple of eggs to give a mixed clutch or would it be to hit and miss knowing that the semen is stored in pockets within the females oviduct at the junction of the cloaca.

I do in a way, in that I sometimes use a second Tiercel on one falcon after an egg has been laid. Normally only when the first male has stopped producing semen. Any chance of imput from the other big breeders on here as well???? Falcon Mews etc?

[Intek Hosting]

Semen first eggs second.
So what youre saying is it doest matter which came first, chicken or egg, the male came first :-)

[Hacker]

Anybody going to answer my question?

[Intek Hosting]

I do in a way, in that I sometimes use a second Tiercel on one falcon after an egg has been laid. Normally only when the first male has stopped producing semen.

If the species is registerable, would you put down both males as "possible" parents or would you have to go down the DNA route to prove the parent for registration?

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

Anybody going to answer my question?

See my above post LOL.

[Liam Fensome]

Does anybody inseminate the falcon with more than one type of semen during the same cycle.
ie,Pere semen into say a saker for the first couple of eggs followed by gyr semen for the next couple of eggs to give a mixed clutch or would it be to hit and miss knowing that the semen is stored in pockets within the females oviduct at the junction of the cloaca.

i have heard people use peregrine seamen for first couple of eggs and then put gyr seman in the other egg of the same female

atb
Liam

[Intek Hosting]

Do you re-inseminate after each egg?
Also is it true that you always lose the first egg with AI?

[Hacker]

Seems we all posted together.
PMSL

[Finnish]

Do you re-inseminate after each egg?
Also is it true that you always lose the first egg with AI?
+

The man with all the question's you thinking of going into AI or some thing...

[Kentish Falconry]

i have heard people use peregrine seamen for first couple of eggs and then put gyr seman in the other egg of the same female

atb
Liam

Not a good idea as there was a case with the RSPB trying to prosecute a breeder when the DNA didn't match 5 chicks 1 insemination all related but last 4 eggs were inseminated with another Male.
If you put the incorrect male as the father then you can be prosecuted.
You have to keep accurate records and not rely on guess work.

[Intek Hosting]

+

The man with all the question's you thinking of going into AI or some thing...
Well I do have a voluntary semen donor cockatiel but I dont have any standing females.

Its just not something that's done in parrot breeding. I read a lot but the books always leave blanks.

[Hacker]

This is the reason we need your input Terry,
Knowledge m8!:supz:

[Kentish Falconry]

Do you re-inseminate after each egg?
Also is it true that you always lose the first egg with AI?

Only if you can't read your birds and you failed to inseminate her, that is of course if you know what you are doing or you could miss the whole clutch

[Kentish Falconry]

This is the reason we need your input Terry,
Knowledge m8!:supz:

Sory M8 I promised to leave it to the experts :lol:

[Hacker]

Terry,
How do you get the tiercel to donate on the hat at the start of his illustrious career.
My pere tiercel 1 year is now bobbing ang bowing a good one, how do i move him on to the next stage?

[MickeyDredd]

Well, you wanted the thread back...bl**dy post something then!! :lol: :lol:

[Hacker]

Waiting for an answer to my question?

[MickeyDredd]

Waiting for an answer to my question?

Well post "Hello, anybody there"? then :wink: :lol:

[Hacker]

They will answer in their own good time.8-)

[Hacker]

Still interested on bringing a hat bird on though?

[MickeyDredd]

Still interested on bringing a hat bird on though?

Stick a chick leg on it then! :lol:

Does it not explain this on one of the nick Fox videos??

[Hacker]

Probably does and i have them but i thought i would ask the question to get the thread going.
I would rather have positive input than negative but seems i am barking up the wrong post.
I would of thought that it made sense to create the thread and extract as much info as possible, so that even newbies could benefit despite the fact that we may know the answer ourselves anyway.

[As The Falcon Her Bells]

Nice thread!
I really have no experience at all compared to some of the big breeders on here like Terry, Martyn Patersson, Falcon mews, gary Wall, Mick Cane etc. etc.
However I would love to use this as a "AI diary"!!
As I have not at this moment got any seemen donating birds so I will leave the seemen bit to the other guys, Mark is the professional on this subject.

When I worked for Nick Fox I had a small New ZeelandXPeregrine called Spifire (most of you will know him from the Nick Fox videos) and he gave seemen to me (I was the first one he gave to which made me soooo proud). Now I am working with one black gyr that I imprinted from a little baby who could give this year. He is certainly displaying for me, so fingers crossed.
As of females I have 12 who variate from 2-5 years old, some of whom have laied before some of who should lay this year if everything goes as planned.
At the moment there is only 2 (both gyr/sakers) with proper scrapes who is calling at me in the scrape, but its still early.
This time of the year I start to socilise with them and do whatever the individuall bird prefer.
I have one peregrine who need attention already now. I go in and chupp with her and scrape and call her.
Another one loves to be fed on the hand and then clean her beak on my face and nibble my hair. This seem to strenghten the bond between us. I certainly noticed a different first year she laid from last year.
1st year she stood about a week before she laied her first egg, I had then totured the poor falcon with going in 6-10 times a day working with her. Last year I spent a lot of time with another bird who needed attention and consecvently the first one did not get as much attention as she did in the previous year. So now she only started to stand after she laied the first egg, no need to say the first egg was infertile...
Some people would call this boll***s but I know my falcons individually one by one so Im quite sure this was the problem, if I given her the same attention as the previous year she would have stood before the first egg. Now I make sure to feed her on the hand every day and spend time just playing with her.
Some of the other peregrines are the complete opposite, if I go in they show all sign of either fear or aggression, then when they are ready they will let me in to work with them.
I suppose what Im trying to say is that they are all complete individualls and all ned to be threated differently.

[Hacker]

Sara,
do you find one breed responds better than the other in both the male and female?

[Talon]

i might be wrong ,but carnt see any big breeders coming on her and giving a step by step of what they do.?
as ive found most big breeders are very secrative and dont like to give too much away.there tell you the basics ands thats it.
i know breeders go to falconry clubs and give talks on it but a hell of a lots missed out.as i said there let you know the basics and thats it.
well thats what i found.my be one will prove me wrong and come on.

[Barbary Boy]

why do you think the big breeders are secretive m8? falcon mews ran several ai courses open to anyone to learn thier "secrets" not that long ago! and some other big breeders learnt thier trade from them and went on to run thier own ai courses based on what they learnt from them. so i dont know why you think there are secrets being kept by a select few? invest a few thousand pounds on avieries m8 spend another few grand on a few select birds, then spend a small fortune on equipment, food etc over several years, then make your mind up?

[Kentish Falconry]

why do you think the big breeders are secretive m8? falcon mews ran several ai courses open to anyone to learn thier "secrets" not that long ago! and some other big breeders learnt thier trade from them and went on to run thier own ai courses based on what they learnt from them. so i dont know why you think there are secrets being kept by a select few? invest a few thousand pounds on avieries m8 spend another few grand on a few select birds, then spend a small fortune on equipment, food etc over several years, then make your mind up?

Most of what you say is true but otherwise spot on

[Barbary Boy]

you know what im talking about terry? i get a bit peeved to say the least about falconers moaning about breeders when they dont know what gos into it! and im only a very small fish in a very deep sea? i see what the proffessionals do day in day out all year round and its a hell of a lot? as you know.

[Talon]

want moaning about big breeders at all in any way or form.
and it stands to reason there going to tell you a bit more if
you on a course wich you have paid for the privilige to learn a bit
more from. if you honistly think there going to tell every little bit of
knoledge the have learnt over the years to ppl on a forum.
your dafter than me.lol and thats daft.
and i dont exspect them too.

[Barbary Boy]

want moaning about big breeders at all in any way or form.
and it stands to reason there going to tell you a bit more if
you on a course wich you have paid for the privilige to learn a bit
more from. if you honistly think there going to tell every little bit of
knoledge the have learnt over the years to ppl on a forum.
your dafter than me.lol and thats daft.
and i dont exspect them too.

so! take up breeding yourself and learn like they had to do for gods sake?

[Talon]

how do you know i dont breed.??????

[Barbary Boy]

i dont? sorry! what do you breed?

[Talon]

carnt say the taxman might be on here.:yawinkle:

[Barbary Boy]

so nothing much to mention then?

[Talon]

not a lot. why what you after,

sorry for hijaking this thread.

[Barbary Boy]

two female red shaheens! have you heard of them?

[MitchellBrad]

Still interested on bringing a hat bird on though?

You mean like this? I got a better one of him copulating around here but this gives ya the idea

[Fawkes]

I am interested in this too.. how do you get them started on the hat?

[Kevin Massey]

However I would love to use this as a "AI diary"!!.

I for one hope you do:supz:

[Jeremiah Johnson]

This could be a good thread if it don't de-generate :roll:

Here are some of my experiances THIS IS NOT A HOW TO guide AS I AM WORKING ALONE AND IN THE DARK.... This is just where I am now troubles , concerns worries etc etc

I have three imprints .. the oldest is nearly 2 on may the 5th
he is an large Altai Saker .. I did not breed him I did not IMPRINT him
He came into my care about 10 months ago.
When he arrived he snarled bit and clawed and picking him up was a nightmare
He spent six months in the house and at the end of that the only improvment was that I was tolerated and only me ..and If he didnt want to be picked up he would well... express his annoyance.

since then he has been in an imprint chamber ... this made a big differance
interaction with him in his safe zone and me the other side of the bars was very good .. chups .. bows the usual stuff .. when I enter the pen he is very cautious of me .. will tolerate my company and allow some physical interaction ... UNTIL FOOD ARRIVES ..

The last few weeks again have shown a change had the goose march and nest ledge displays... the hat however is a non starter ... but today he tentativly nibbled one of my new mountain boot's and for a few seconds went down on his hocks and "Trod"
so now where next .. do I have to put my new £120 boots to one side ... Do I try and .. dress em up a bit with some rubber ware?

ANY INPUT WELCOME.

The Tiercel arrived at 16 day old is 9 months old .. he was imprinted by my self .. was very noisey until recently had some short tame hack exploits
has been in the pen about 6 months ... echips nicely displays to me and generaly interacts very well ... he was flying to the hat .. I have never placed food on the Hat .. but always fed him after ... It seems that now he will only fly to the Hat if he is hungry (food assiocation maybe ? good or bad ?? I haven't got a clue)... he has never "hunkered down on the hat" and I am not sure what to expect in his first year ... ?

INPUT WELOME


the final Imprint is a Lanner hatched and reared by myself ... imprinted by the book ... taken to food etc etc .. She had free reign of the house fledged tame hacked and eventualy brought to the lure doing up to about 40 passes .. She never went Hungry .. she has been in the chamber about
4 months as pre chamber she was "cute and cuddly" however now she is uneasy in my company and food motivated .. she does chit and bob and bow and interact well untill food is shown...
again not sure what to expect in the first year ...

INPUT WELCOME

Regards Jez

[Peregrine1]

This could be a good thread if it don't de-generate :roll:

Here are some of my experiances THIS IS NOT A HOW TO guide AS I AM WORKING ALONE AND IN THE DARK.... This is just where I am now troubles , concerns worries etc etc

I have three imprints .. the oldest is nearly 2 on may the 5th
he is an large Altai Saker .. I did not breed him I did not IMPRINT him
He came into my care about 10 months ago.
When he arrived he snarled bit and clawed and picking him up was a nightmare
He spent six months in the house and at the end of that the only improvment was that I was tolerated and only me ..and If he didnt want to be picked up he would well... express his annoyance.

since then he has been in an imprint chamber ... this made a big differance
interaction with him in his safe zone and me the other side of the bars was very good .. chups .. bows the usual stuff .. when I enter the pen he is very cautious of me .. will tolerate my company and allow some physical interaction ... UNTIL FOOD ARRIVES ..

The last few weeks again have shown a change had the goose march and nest ledge displays... the hat however is a non starter ... but today he tentativly nibbled one of my new mountain boot's and for a few seconds went down on his hocks and "Trod"
so now where next .. do I have to put my new £120 boots to one side ... Do I try and .. dress em up a bit with some rubber ware?

ANY INPUT WELCOME.

The Tiercel arrived at 16 day old is 9 months old .. he was imprinted by my self .. was very noisey until recently had some short tame hack exploits
has been in the pen about 6 months ... echips nicely displays to me and generaly interacts very well ... he was flying to the hat .. I have never placed food on the Hat .. but always fed him after ... It seems that now he will only fly to the Hat if he is hungry (food assiocation maybe ? good or bad ?? I haven't got a clue)... he has never "hunkered down on the hat" and I am not sure what to expect in his first year ... ?

INPUT WELOME


the final Imprint is a Lanner hatched and reared by myself ... imprinted by the book ... taken to food etc etc .. She had free reign of the house fledged tame hacked and eventualy brought to the lure doing up to about 40 passes .. She never went Hungry .. she has been in the chamber about
4 months as pre chamber she was "cute and cuddly" however now she is uneasy in my company and food motivated .. she does chit and bob and bow and interact well untill food is shown...
again not sure what to expect in the first year ...

INPUT WELCOME

Regards Jez

I think the problem with males that seem to want to copulate on the feet, have spend the early formative days in imprint tanks that have spent way much on the floor hence imprinting on the feet extra. I always keep mine a minimum of waste height on a table or if outdoor's on the roof or bonnet of a car. My mate had a previous owned Jerkin that was focus on feet and started to copulate on them he managed to turn it around and has been a productive hatbird for year's. You could try trying to get him to copulate on the hat on you're feet when he's confident move it up onto you're knee and then finally onto you're head or if you get good clean semen on the hat placed on you're feet you could stick with that. I will add more latter chore's to do.
Regards
Colin

[Kentish Falconry]

I think the problem with males that seem to want to copulate on the feet, have spend the early formative days in imprint tanks that have spent way much on the floor hence imprinting on the feet extra. I always keep mine a minimum of waste height on a table or if outdoor's on the roof or bonnet of a car. My mate had a previous owned Jerkin that was focus on feet and started to copulate on them he managed to turn it around and has been a productive hatbird for year's. You could try trying to get him to copulate on the hat on you're feet when he's confident move it up onto you're knee and then finally onto you're head or if you get good clean semen on the hat placed on you're feet you could stick with that. I will add more latter chore's to do.
Regards
Colin

Colin this bird was raised in an Imprint tank but the tank is always on the tables as you have seen here, I don't know why he is doing this but he was put into the weathering's for some time and not worked as he was supposed to go to the USA as a future Donor but as you know the whole deal was a stitch up from day one with no intentions of Importing. I sold him to Jez for next to nothing for him to play with and see what he could do as I did not want him.

[Jeremiah Johnson]

Colin this bird was raised in an Imprint tank but the tank is always on the tables as you have seen here, I don't know why he is doing this but he was put into the weathering's for some time and not worked as he was supposed to go to the USA as a future Donor but as you know the whole deal was a stitch up from day one with no intentions of Importing. I sold him to Jez for next to nothing for him to play with and see what he could do as I did not want him.

Yes a good deal too
I am overall happy with TAZ .. I will add to my previous post that once on the fist this bird is a gentleman .. To be honest I am very pleased he is taking an intrest in the boot.... If he cops on that Ill be more than happy ... Just not on my new Scarpa's . :rolleyes: .. but if that what it takes then well good for him.

[Peregrine1]

Colin this bird was raised in an Imprint tank but the tank is always on the tables as you have seen here, I don't know why he is doing this but he was put into the weathering's for some time and not worked as he was supposed to go to the USA as a future Donor but as you know the whole deal was a stitch up from day one with no intentions of Importing. I sold him to Jez for next to nothing for him to play with and see what he could do as I did not want him.

Hello Terry
Yes I have seen the imprint tanks on the tables I think you was doing some Barbary's, I did not realise you bred the Alti Sakeret though. I can remember something about one being destined for export though. The Sakeret might just have a foot fetish :) I say it's good sign if he's trying to copulate anywhere. Soon work round it and adapt.
Regards
Colin

[Kentish Falconry]

Hello Terry
Yes I have seen the imprint tanks on the tables I think you was doing some Barbary's, I did not realise you bred the Alti Sakeret though. I can remember something about one being destined for export though. The Sakeret might just have a foot fetish :) I say it's good sign if he's trying to copulate anywhere. Soon work round it and adapt.
Regards
Colin

It doesnt always work like that Colin I have a Jerkin that was raised on the floor and he will tread the hat time and time again but will not donate but as soon as he can jump on my boot he gives good sized samples so now I just go with the flow and use a rubber mat.
There were 27 Altai Sakers supposed to go on that shipment 3 of them were Imprinted Males the rest were adult pairs and youngsters :D
Terry

[MitchellBrad]

I've trained a number of hat birds. Never found any of it hard to do. In the case of that gyrkin, he wanted to copulate on anything and everything. After flying him his first season I tied him up for the moult. Granted I've had 2 imprinted gyrs but found both the gyr and the gyrkin to have basically the same behaviors during their first moult. Both were tied up after being flown for their first moult. Both would call like mad men when they heard the door of the house open first thing in the morning. I'd go out, interact with them and be told to leave. The falcon scraped and the gyrkin would hump my foot. He did love to fly to the knee, hump that then request I go somewhere else. I flew him the second season, tied him up after the season and went through the same behaviors. He wasn't flown his 3rd season but was still tied up until transferred him into a smallish chambers. The moment he saw the nest box he was in it in a flash. Still he would try to copulate on the foot and on the knee. I always wore the same jacket and the hat every time I went in. One day I got a little tired of him hitting the knee or foot. This is what I did. Upon entering the chambers he flew to the ledge, we did a mutual ledge display. Then I walked away and watched him for that precopulatory gaze. Of course he then flew to the ground getting ready to hop the foot. Instead of standing there I got down on my hands and knees wailing my brains out. I spread my legs a little for balance arched my back and went down on my elbows with my head on the floor. All the time wailing. The gyrkin saw the hat and stepped up then copulated. From then on it was easy. This gyrkin was funny when he did copulate. He'd sometimes ejaculate on the hat and fall off backwards. The down side is he would smear it sometimes giving me nothing more than a greasy spot. I think I raised one eyeas out of him then sold him. For a while my name was mud around here because this bird was a family pet. Any of the kids could do anything with him. Got several pictures of the kids interacting with him.

[Alf]

Great post Brad. As with any hawk you just have to think about it? How can I get it to do this how can I get a reaction to that?
I love figuring things out gives me a great deal of pleasure.
Alf.


I've trained a number of hat birds. Never found any of it hard to do. In the case of that gyrkin, he wanted to copulate on anything and everything. After flying him his first season I tied him up for the moult. Granted I've had 2 imprinted gyrs but found both the gyr and the gyrkin to have basically the same behaviors during their first moult. Both were tied up after being flown for their first moult. Both would call like mad men when they heard the door of the house open first thing in the morning. I'd go out, interact with them and be told to leave. The falcon scraped and the gyrkin would hump my foot. He did love to fly to the knee, hump that then request I go somewhere else. I flew him the second season, tied him up after the season and went through the same behaviors. He wasn't flown his 3rd season but was still tied up until transferred him into a smallish chambers. The moment he saw the nest box he was in it in a flash. Still he would try to copulate on the foot and on the knee. I always wore the same jacket and the hat every time I went in. One day I got a little tired of him hitting the knee or foot. This is what I did. Upon entering the chambers he flew to the ledge, we did a mutual ledge display. Then I walked away and watched him for that precopulatory gaze. Of course he then flew to the ground getting ready to hop the foot. Instead of standing there I got down on my hands and knees wailing my brains out. I spread my legs a little for balance arched my back and went down on my elbows with my head on the floor. All the time wailing. The gyrkin saw the hat and stepped up then copulated. From then on it was easy. This gyrkin was funny when he did copulate. He'd sometimes ejaculate on the hat and fall off backwards. The down side is he would smear it sometimes giving me nothing more than a greasy spot. I think I raised one eyeas out of him then sold him. For a while my name was mud around here because this bird was a family pet. Any of the kids could do anything with him. Got several pictures of the kids interacting with him.

[MitchellBrad]

Great post Brad. As with any hawk you just have to think about it? How can I get it to do this how can I get a reaction to that?
I love figuring things out gives me a great deal of pleasure.
Alf.

Thanks Alf. I did spend some time trying to figure out what to do. At first I felt like an idiot with my nose in the ground and my butt straight up in the air. Had anyone see that and gotten a picture they could have blackmailed me for life:D The end result was a hat bird. the next problem was all the smeared semen. I tried everything I could think of but couldn't rectify the problem. One time I could see his tail hanging right in front of my face and figured he'd miss the hat. I stuck my hand out and got a deposit dropped in the palm.

Brad

[Alf]

Brad it hard to figure a thing like smearing when the falcon is on your head and you can’t see what’s happening. I mirror could have helped but some hawks don’t take kindly to them. Maybe a like minded falconer could have come along an assessed what was going on up there told you what he was up to.
Alf.


Thanks Alf. I did spend some time trying to figure out what to do. At first I felt like an idiot with my nose in the ground and my butt straight up in the air. Had anyone see that and gotten a picture they could have blackmailed me for life:D The end result was a hat bird. the next problem was all the smeared semen. I tried everything I could think of but couldn't rectify the problem. One time I could see his tail hanging right in front of my face and figured he'd miss the hat. I stuck my hand out and got a deposit dropped in the palm.

Brad

[MitchellBrad]

Brad it hard to figure a thing like smearing when the falcon is on your head and you can’t see what’s happening. I mirror could have helped but some hawks don’t take kindly to them. Maybe a like minded falconer could have come along an assessed what was going on up there told you what he was up to.
Alf.

Good idea Alf. I never thought of doing that. I'm not sure if he'd have copulated with a stranger watching but I could have watched because I'm sure he would have hit the hat if one of the kids had worn it. He was a family sort of guy:D

Oh well that was a while ago. No more imprints for me anymore but I'm very sure your idea could be used by others. I have a friend with 2 semen donating white gyrkins. One of them does smear on occasion. I'll mention it to him and see what he thinks.

Brad

[Alf]

Brad another way would be to have a Video camera in his pen taping it. You can then view back and see what going on. Could have been any number of reasons but if you can see him on the hat you can try and work out why.
Parent reared are much less work mate. :yawinkle: Alf.


Good idea Alf. I never thought of doing that. I'm not sure if he'd have copulated with a stranger watching but I could have watched because I'm sure he would have hit the hat if one of the kids had worn it. He was a family sort of guy:D

Oh well that was a while ago. No more imprints for me anymore but I'm very sure your idea could be used by others. I have a friend with 2 semen donating white gyrkins. One of them does smear on occasion. I'll mention it to him and see what he thinks.

Brad

[Kentish Falconry]

Brad another way would be to have a Video camera in his pen taping it. You can then view back and see what going on. Could have been any number of reasons but if you can see him on the hat you can try and work out why.
Parent reared are much less work mate. :yawinkle: Alf.

Less work Alf but also less benificial :lol:

[Alf]

Don’t think Brad is bothered too much about that. Alf.

Less work Alf but also less benificial :lol:

[Kentish Falconry]

Thanks Alf. I did spend some time trying to figure out what to do. At first I felt like an idiot with my nose in the ground and my butt straight up in the air. Had anyone see that and gotten a picture they could have blackmailed me for life:D The end result was a hat bird. the next problem was all the smeared semen. I tried everything I could think of but couldn't rectify the problem. One time I could see his tail hanging right in front of my face and figured he'd miss the hat. I stuck my hand out and got a deposit dropped in the palm.

Brad

That problem could have been solved immediately Brad. Think back to my hat and you will remember the little rough and raised areas this is intended to stop the semen spreading as the bird turns, it is 99.5% certain he was smearing the sample with his Tail feathers.
Terry :supz:

[MitchellBrad]

Parent reared are much less work mate. :yawinkle: Alf.

That's right Alf. Put quail in, take out eyeases. Only have to go in the chambers when I band them. Every eyeas I've raised this way has been a natural copulator here. Can't say about others who have them. No fuss, no muss, now worry.:yawinkle: Pick my potential gamehawk and sell the rest.

Brad

[MitchellBrad]

That problem could have been solved immediately Brad. Think back to my hat and you will remember the little rough and raised areas this is intended to stop the semen spreading as the bird turns, it is 99.5% certain he was smearing the sample with his Tail feathers.
Terry :supz:

Good point for others to think about. I'll never have another bird on the head again8-)

Brad

[MitchellBrad]

Don’t think Brad is bothered too much about that. Alf.

To be honest your right Alf. I could give a rip about numbers. There is nothing wrong with raising more than I do, I'm only breeding for myself. In a good year I couple probably produce 30+ peregrines. Provided everything went right. Double or even tripple clutching some of the birds. I'm pleased as punch if I raise a handful.

Brad

[Alf]

Terry, will it not depend on how deep the furrows are on your hat and how hard this male is pressing with its tail? A big falcon like a gyr might not be positioned right on the hat if it’s turning around and digging in then the tail could be a problem as could so many other factors? Alf.

That problem could have been solved immediately Brad. Think back to my hat and you will remember the little rough and raised areas this is intended to stop the semen spreading as the bird turns, it is 99.5% certain he was smearing the sample with his Tail feathers.
Terry :supz:

[MitchellBrad]

Terry, will it not depend on how deep the furrows are on your hat and how hard this male is pressing with its tail? A big falcon like a gyr might not be positioned right on the hat if it’s turning around and digging in then the tail could be a problem as could so many other factors? Alf.

Alf,

I tried just about everything. Graham Butterworth came up with some ideas I tried. Multiple gutters, lots of silicone and other things. Still he smeared. Terry's hat could of or might not have made a difference. I could get 2 or 3 shots a day out of him with maybe one being good. At the time I had one AI falcon on the property and was pouring everything into her. I raised one gyr/prairie, the rest were peregrine/prairies. I had an anatum semen donor but he was reserved for the one peregrine I had to AI, the excess went either onto my sleeve or into the prairie. I wiped off so much semen that year I beleive you could have put that jacket into an incubator and hatched something. Anyway I didnt' want to put gyr semen into the anatum and possibly taint a potentially good gamehawk.

Now I suppose I best run for cover after that last sentence. Off to lunch with the crew we have working. :yawinkle:

Brad

Brad

[Terry Hanson]

Hi Brad, did you find the Anatum tiercels came in condition at an earlier age than the Peales tiercels or is it a myth that Peales tend to later?
Regards
Terry

[MitchellBrad]

;-) Hi Brad, did you find the Anatum tiercels came in condition at an earlier age than the Peales tiercels or is it a myth that Peales tend to later?
Regards
Terry

My origional peales laid late. The female I have now first started laying in Kansas. I'd raised the falcon, sent her to Kansas where she was flown then bred. It is a whole lot warmer down there so she started laying earlier than anyone would dream a peregrine would up here. Anyway, her egg dates are the same as in Kansas. A couple of warm days and eggs magically start appearing. Sometimes they freeze, sometimes not. She hasn't laid yet probably because we are in Ice Age at the moment. A friend of mine used to have a charlotte peales that would lay earlier than his other birds, up here. I asked him about it, he had no answer. It was good enough for him to know she was an early bird.

I think generally speaking most of the birds I've had that were partial or full peales would lay later. ON the other hand I KNOW most of this is weather related. Warm = Eggs. Cold = No Eggs. Some years even the anatums were spitting out eggs the end of March when the norm is the second week in April. Bet I don't see an anatum egg until then this year. First time birds always seem to lay a week or two later than their average egg dates later in life.

That's all I really know;-)

In answer to your question. It is the falcons who control what's going on with the tiercels. So if the falcon comes in early the tiercel will.

Brad

[Intek Hosting]

I do in a way, in that I sometimes use a second Tiercel on one falcon after an egg has been laid. Normally only when the first male has stopped producing semen. Any chance of imput from the other big breeders on here as well???? Falcon Mews etc?
Thank you Game and Pursuit Falcon UK (http://www.gameandpursuitfalconuk.co.uk)
Could you tell us how you would go about preparing the registration paperwork in a situation where it is not absolutely certain which male fertilized an egg.
Perhaps some input form the larger breeders would be helpfull.

[Terry Hanson]

;-)

My origional peales laid late. The female I have now first started laying in Kansas. I'd raised the falcon, sent her to Kansas where she was flown then bred. It is a whole lot warmer down there so she started laying earlier than anyone would dream a peregrine would up here. Anyway, her egg dates are the same as in Kansas. A couple of warm days and eggs magically start appearing. Sometimes they freeze, sometimes not. She hasn't laid yet probably because we are in Ice Age at the moment. A friend of mine used to have a charlotte peales that would lay earlier than his other birds, up here. I asked him about it, he had no answer. It was good enough for him to know she was an early bird.

I think generally speaking most of the birds I've had that were partial or full peales would lay later. ON the other hand I KNOW most of this is weather related. Warm = Eggs. Cold = No Eggs. Some years even the anatums were spitting out eggs the end of March when the norm is the second week in April. Bet I don't see an anatum egg until then this year. First time birds always seem to lay a week or two later than their average egg dates later in life.

That's all I really know;-)

In answer to your question. It is the falcons who control what's going on with the tiercels. So if the falcon comes in early the tiercel will.

Brad

Thanks Brad, interesting post. I was referring more to age than time of year
Regards
Terry

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

Thank you Game and Pursuit Falcon UK (http://www.gameandpursuitfalconuk.co.uk)
Could you tell us how you would go about preparing the registration paperwork in a situation where it is not absolutely certain which male fertilized an egg.
Perhaps some input form the larger breeders would be helpfull.

Im just open about it with DEFRA. I tell them what it should be and what else Ive used. Its a no brainer really as long as you dont put different semens in for the same egg. You wouldnt 'miss' anything as you would be inseminating all the way through the egg laying cycle.

[MitchellBrad]

Thanks Brad, interesting post. I was referring more to age than time of year
Regards
Terry

My last semen donating anatum produced semen and an eyeas as a 2 yr old. Voluntary. I had a reluctant donor ie stripped, that produced enough semen to produce 2 eyeases as a 2 yr old.

Brad

[Terry Hanson]

My last semen donating anatum produced semen and an eyeas as a 2 yr old. Voluntary. I had a reluctant donor ie stripped, that produced enough semen to produce 2 eyeases as a 2 yr old.

Brad

Thanks Brad

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

My last semen donating anatum produced semen and an eyeas as a 2 yr old. Voluntary. I had a reluctant donor ie stripped, that produced enough semen to produce 2 eyeases as a 2 yr old.

Brad

I have a food imprint Tiercel here Brad that last season gave semen with a helping hand for eight weeks:rolleyes: . Some people still believe that a male stripped is shut down by the action. :roll: :grin:

[MitchellBrad]

I have a food imprint Tiercel here Brad that last season gave semen with a helping hand for eight weeks:rolleyes: . Some people still believe that a male stripped is shut down by the action. :roll: :grin:

That freaks them out but doesn't shut them down. That is my experience. I once had a peales anatum that would give only on days I didn't need it:rolleyes: Went to stripping him, produced a few eyeases within a week after I quit abusing him he was back on the hat giving the occasional shot. Got rid of him the first chance I got. What a waste of a good mews.

Brad

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

The Tiercel here flashes on and off the hat if left to his own devices. If I strip him, then release him to the ledge he goes into a full ledge display?!?!? Hes a messed in the head individual but productive! Fortunately I have the other three Tiercels and the Jerkin to turn too!

[MitchellBrad]

Hes a messed in the head individual but productive!

Since this is a family forum I can't come out and tell you what I thought and said about the one I had. He was a gift from someone who was dying. I was very grateful to receive him. This was back in the 80's. Today I know the bird wasn't handled properly but one doesn't look a gift peregrine in the mouth nor does one complain to a man who is very sick. I know better now but back then I was very happy to receive the bird and his sister. I did raise birds from both his sister and him. Hybrids and purebreds. They both taught me a lot but the production was so miserable I thought falcon breeding was hard. Today I know much differently. These peregrines are as easy to breed and raise as pigeons. The only differences are they don't have as many clutches nor do they breed all year long.
Brad

[Hacker]

Glad this thread is going in the right direction.
Does anyone try to bring their birds on using artifical light, ie extending the daylight hours in order to stimulate the birds hormones.
If so what type of lighting, reference tube types?

[TimDog80]

id be interested in how long certain species take to come into breeding condition and ready to co-operate??

for example how long would a lttle merlin take to get to the donating/receiving stage compared to say a gyr??

regards
tim:D

[Venividevenatio]

I have a 06 imprint female perigrine. She was extensivly tame hacked, and currently lies somewhere between tame hacking, and out and out hunting. She has had a few kills, and is on slow weight reduction, to sharpen her up a little, to hopefuly get a few more kills in before May when I will put her up to moult.
The overall plan is to have a well hunted and justified as breeding bird in the future.
When I bring her her in before dark, she sits on my knee whilst I am on the PC. She has one of those real feather bending, pulling, tweaking sorts of preen sessions, followed by a rouse and a final tweak.
Then she has a cackle at me, and usualy starts trying to preen the hairs on my arm, then she jumps on to my shoulder and gives the hair on my head the same treatment she gives herself! This started happening a few weeks ago.

My question is, is this her youthful playing, or is this an indicator that we are starting to have a relationship?

[Falcon911]

Terry,
How do you get the tiercel to donate on the hat at the start of his illustrious career.
My pere tiercel 1 year is now bobbing ang bowing a good one, how do i move him on to the next stage?

In the first year mine was doing exactly the same and when I put the hat on he couldn't wait to get on it (!?) but all he did was go done on his hocks momentarily, chattered a bit and then just stood there. He seems a bit more advanced this year but any ideas on how to get him really going would be appreciated. Do I just carry on with what I am doing? Do you present him with a food item after he has been on the hat (and not doing a lot) or not? I understand he is young!
Cheers
Andy

[MitchellBrad]

in Falcon Propagation by The Peregrine Fund, Inc, there is a chapter on Training Imprinted Semen Donors by Boyd and Schwartz. That one chapter is worth buying the booklet. I read some of it this a m and think it is the best explaination taking the reader through the entire process. The only thing I couldn't find was about displacing a reluctant tiercel with eye contact.

Brad

[Kevin Massey]

The thread is looking good:supz:

[MitchellBrad]

The thread is looking good:supz:

I hope so. The important thing is people learn and don't repeat many of the mistakes other's have made in the past. Half of what I heard when I started was, well, I can't say it with kids present:o

Breeding most raptors really is easy provided you have time, a little knowledge and start with birds that were properly raised. The biggest problem often is getting started.

Brad

[Intek Hosting]

I'm surprised at how many "proper" replies to my questions have arrived by PM. Thanks for making the effort to reply guys. Something tells me this thread is not particularly popular with certain AI breeders.

My next question, I seen a post that suggested if you dont read the bird correctly you can miss the entire clutch of eggs.
Is this with forced insemination (rape birds) because the impression I get it, voluntary inseminations can be done as regularly as needed and the first egg is only lost if you dont start inseminating early enough.
Are forced inseminations only done once before egg laying starts to avoid the risk of breaking an egg inside the bird's body or will the bird just not tolerate being violated like that more than once?
Given the choice, would most AI breeders use voluntary or forced insemination?
Could a voluntary insemination be expected to last for more than one egg or is it safer to inseminate after each egg? Why do forced inseminations work for the whole clutch?

Still wondering how the registration documents get completed if more than one bird could be the dad??

[Kentish Falconry]

I'm surprised at how many "proper" replies to my questions have arrived by PM. Thanks for making the effort to reply guys. Something tells me this thread is not particularly popular with certain AI breeders.

I have in the past been very free with info on the subject of AI and breeding in general, (look in the archives for further info) however recent personal attacks on myself and my website have convinced me that helping people is not always a good idea. I have also given semen to those who wanted to try their hand at AI or for some reason their Males were not producing semen at the right time. So please don't claim certain breeders don't find this Thread popular it could just be that certain people seem to have got involved that they do not want to respond to. I am all for helping those that I feel are worth helping and have done so in the past and will continue to do so. However I am pleased you have got all your answers by PM so you should now be in a position to give this thread some positive input for all to learn from.

My next question, I seen a post that suggested if you dont read the bird correctly you can miss the entire clutch of eggs.

You have to know when to inseminate a bird to get the next egg fertile especially with Forced AI

Is this with forced insemination (rape birds) because the impression I get it, voluntary inseminations can be done as regularly as needed and the first egg is only lost if you dont start inseminating early enough.

Correct but read your bird properly and keep records of laying dates and you will not miss the first egg with voluntary free standing birds as you can inseminate as soon as the bird will accept it and keep her topped up daily in case the last sample has been expelled

Are forced inseminations only done once before egg laying starts to avoid the risk of breaking an egg inside the bird's body or will the bird just not tolerate being violated like that more than once?

You do not do a forced insemination before the first egg is laid it is done after the first egg is laid within 6 hours is the norm but if possible I always do this within 1 hour of laying. You appear to have the wrong idea of forced insemination's 99% of the time the birds are not bothered by this but you have to know how to achieve it properly and unless you are trained to do it you run the risk of injuring the bird so don't attempt it if you don't know how to do it.

Given the choice, would most AI breeders use voluntary or forced insemination?

Yes we would all prefer to do AI on a voluntary basis but sometime you get a bird that you desperately need to preserve the bloodline and she will not stand voluntarily for insemination so you have to force inseminate her. I have certain birds here that will not stand for an insemination but will go through the whole courtship routine and then stand for insemination but as soon as they are touched they run away so forced insemination is the only way. This if done correctly has no ill effect on the bird at all as when I release her she goes straight back to the nest and chupps at me and goes through the food pass routine

Could a voluntary insemination be expected to last for more than one egg or is it safer to inseminate after each egg? Why do forced inseminations work for the whole clutch?

Yes it is possible that one insemination could cover a whole clutch of eggs but it is not normal practice to rely on this and it is far better to inseminate as frequently as you have semen available. The same applies with forced insemination's they should be carried out after each egg is laid

Still wondering how the registration documents get completed if more than one bird could be the dad??

Not a problem at all you just put AI on the application form rather than individual males but you must supply DEFRA with the details of possible males. It is far better to stick to insemination's from one male per clutch and then there is no mistakes likely to be made. When the chick is old enough to tell what it is then you can get the registration document exchanged but this is only necessary if you have used a different species say Gyr and Peregrine inseminated into the same female during the same clutch but as I said it is not a good idea to switch semen donors during an egg cycle.

Terry

[Altai]

My 2006 1/4 peales,3/4 scottish imprint teircel did a "hitched wings" dispay to me yesterday ( he was running around doing an impersonation of a vulture). He seemed more surprised than me! His hormones kicked in and there was nothing he could do about it. He has moulted a lot of his back feathers so I guess his hormones have surged early. Perhaps he will produce semen next year and early in the season. It is interesting that teircels seem to become nervous and skittish when they first start this behaviour. Keeping their distance from their "falcon" probably stops them getting eaten before she has come fully into condition.
The old Bob Crease Teircel is very laid back these days. He has been "talking" to me for a couple of weeks and you can tell what is going through his mind when he lowers his belly feathers. However he has some time to go yet, he is not in a hurry.He has a thing about feet, which is fine by me.At the start of each season I let him copulate on an old pair of black trainers that he has a "relationship" with (while I am wearing them). Later I place the hat (also black) over my feet and he just hops on. The thing I like about this arrangement is that you can see what is going on. Some times he "fakes it", so I can just chup to him insistently and he is back to do the right thing.

Will anyone have some Gyr semen to spare in a couple of weeks, I have a gyr/saker female that is getting ready to lay.

Best of luck with breeding.

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

Very possibly. Try me tomorrow evening on the land line number on the web site.

[Kentish Falconry]

My 2006 1/4 peales,3/4 scottish imprint teircel did a "hitched wings" dispay to me yesterday ( he was running around doing an impersonation of a vulture). He seemed more surprised than me! His hormones kicked in and there was nothing he could do about it. He has moulted a lot of his back feathers so I guess his hormones have surged early. Perhaps he will produce semen next year and early in the season. It is interesting that teircels seem to become nervous and skittish when they first start this behaviour. Keeping their distance from their "falcon" probably stops them getting eaten before she has come fully into condition.
The old Bob Crease Teircel is very laid back these days. He has been "talking" to me for a couple of weeks and you can tell what is going through his mind when he lowers his belly feathers. However he has some time to go yet, he is not in a hurry.He has a thing about feet, which is fine by me.At the start of each season I let him copulate on an old pair of black trainers that he has a "relationship" with (while I am wearing them). Later I place the hat (also black) over my feet and he just hops on. The thing I like about this arrangement is that you can see what is going on. Some times he "fakes it", so I can just chup to him insistently and he is back to do the right thing.

Will anyone have some Gyr semen to spare in a couple of weeks, I have a gyr/saker female that is getting ready to lay.

Best of luck with breeding.

Read this http://www.falconryforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=25458 :supz:

[Hawkmaster]

THREAD EDITED AND PMs SENT

[Rex06]

but like with a pr i know it is bin done before.
a female wich is alone in the aviary paren-reared
and they still ai her cause she kills the male's
she won't lay an egg problebly so how do you do this than
just take her out of the aviary on a day just when other falcons start to
lay an insiminate here, she will than lay an egg wich is nor furtile , and in the 6 hour after that you have to insiminate here again, she lays the egg, again in 6 hours after that or am i wrong

i'm dutch and this is extra hard to understand but i understand most of it i think. if i'm wrong in my text above tell me !

friendly greetzz
pm me if u want

[ParaButeo78]

Just to mention: the Falcon propagation manual, mentioned on here, is available for download as a PDF from the Peregrine Fund.

http://www.peregrinefund.org/pdfs/ResearchLibrary/Propagation_manual.pdf

Great thread BTW, always wanted to learn some more about the subject. Keep it going!

[Alf]

Thanks for that. I haven’t read this in a while, great stuff. Alf.

[Hawkmaster]

Link does not work for me!

[MattSpar]

Instead of standing there I got down on my hands and knees wailing my brains out. I spread my legs a little for balance arched my back and went down on my elbows with my head on the floor. All the time wailing.


Um, you're not by any chance my ex-wife, now calling yourself Mitchell, are you?

Come home Brenda, all is forgiven....

[Rex06]

hawkmaster it does work for u just wait a minute or 2

[Terry Hanson]

hawkmaster it does work for u just wait a minute or 2

Rex, waited 10 mins :eek:
No link for me

[MitchellBrad]

Um, you're not by any chance my ex-wife, now calling yourself Mitchell, are you?

Come home Brenda, all is forgiven....

:vom:

[Jeremiah Johnson]

This could be a good thread if it don't de-generate :roll:

Here are some of my experiances THIS IS NOT A HOW TO guide AS I AM WORKING ALONE AND IN THE DARK.... This is just where I am now troubles , concerns worries etc etc

I have three imprints .. the oldest is nearly 2 on may the 5th
he is an large Altai Saker .. I did not breed him I did not IMPRINT him
He came into my care about 10 months ago.
When he arrived he snarled bit and clawed and picking him up was a nightmare
He spent six months in the house and at the end of that the only improvment was that I was tolerated and only me ..and If he didnt want to be picked up he would well... express his annoyance.

since then he has been in an imprint chamber ... this made a big differance
interaction with him in his safe zone and me the other side of the bars was very good .. chups .. bows the usual stuff .. when I enter the pen he is very cautious of me .. will tolerate my company and allow some physical interaction ... UNTIL FOOD ARRIVES ..

The last few weeks again have shown a change had the goose march and nest ledge displays... the hat however is a non starter ... but today he tentativly nibbled one of my new mountain boot's and for a few seconds went down on his hocks and "Trod"
so now where next .. do I have to put my new £120 boots to one side ... Do I try and .. dress em up a bit with some rubber ware


Just thought I,d update

Since the above post we seem to have had some major improvments . I now am wanted in the chamber. sometimes when I enter he goes into nest ledge displays and is very friendly ... no longer does he seem food orintated

Other times I lean next to him and we watch the world go by... and he nibbles my jacket and nibbles my hair .. most days he will at some point drop to the floor and tentativly go hocks down on my boot but today he we actualy had some copulation on the boot no dribble tho .. .. i am thinking maybe to try add a small gutter to my boot and slowly over time turn it into a hat ?? any thoughts from anyone

Jeremiah

[ParaButeo78]

Link does not work for me!

Try this one then: this is the page with all the publications. Scroll all the way down to Peregrine Fund Manuals and try to download. It's the last post on the page. Hope it works now.

http://www.peregrinefund.org/pdf_articles.asp

[Trebor]

Hi
Great post. I have a male peregrine bought as a semen donor, he will display when I am outside the aviery, he take's food, bow's and chup's:roll: .

As soon as I go in he flies around hitting all sides of the aviery.

I have at present 2 females about to lay any help would be great.

Thanks Rob:roll:

[M & J Raptors]

Hi
Great post. I have a male peregrine bought as a semen donor, he will display when I am outside the aviery, he take's food, bow's and chup's:roll: .

As soon as I go in he flies around hitting all sides of the aviery.

I have at present 2 females about to lay any help would be great.

Thanks Rob:roll:

yes rob,

scrounge some semen quick, hows it going mate ?

[Shaun Byrne]

yes rob,

scrounge some semen quick, hows it going mate ?


Join the queue:roll: :lol:

[M & J Raptors]

Join the queue:roll: :lol:

blank day today shuan, :(

[Shaun Byrne]

blank day today shuan, :(

Not as blank as my ****er:lol:

Not long now mate and you'll be catching it in buckets from your hammock!!:lol:

[Trebor]

Thanks Lads
I might have some in the next couple of days.

Just thinking male may come in to condition out side aviery ,you would think he's giving pints.

go in side all hell breaks out.

Still manage to:lol: