Expectations upon collecting a bird.

[Game & Pursuit Falcon UK]

What do you expect when you collect a bird?
What do you look for at the breeding facillity?
What would get your vote of confidence?
What would make you run for the door?
And Finally..................Do you look into a breeder before a new bird thoroughly?????

Just another of my mewsings whilst confined to the breeding facility.

[Peregrine1]

What do you expect when you collect a bird? What do you look for at the breeding facillity? What would get your vote of confidence? What would make you run for the door? And Finally..................Do you look into a breeder before a new bird thoroughly?????
Just another of my mewsings whilst conffined to the breeding facility.

I look a the general husbandry of the premises the health of the breeding stock, Then the eyass would have to look fit and well, and in A1 feather. I have in the past took the odd downy thats been covered in Sh@t and ****
going against my rules, but it's been a breed or strain thats very hard to get hold of, and has soon cleaned up. Is does not matter be it the biggest breeder or the smallest breeder quality can come from both. I take as I find.
Regards
Colin

[Venividevenatio]

A friendly face and a cup of tea. Its always a long drive.

As regards the set up, as I am about to part with a large amount of 'fun money', I would not be there without doing the homework, and the reputation of the breeder having been established!

PS. Karl, this run of Threads whilst ensconced in the facility, are a good set of market research questions!
Get best value out of that Forum sponsorship ! :supz:

[Mark Collins]

Clean and tidy, is a must ,good sized pens , even for imprints, good feather , honesty, i once picked up a bird to imprint , the breeder told me it was 11 or so days old , when i looked at the paperwork it was 17 days old !!!!!

[SpugHawk]

To be honest i'm there to buy a bird because i got recommendations, from people i trust, i like a chat with the breeder, a bit of bull is ok as long as its only sales talk, i've already heard good things about the breeding stock, my prime concerns now are the bird it self its physical fitness and what it was fed on, after that i would expect to be able to talk to the breeder if needed, as some sort of after sales service

Rob

[Hawkmaster]

Price for one,
Condition of the bird, two,
Confirmation and

then all the bull like quality of stock, breeding knowledge etc etc!

Personally I do not care about anything except the first three in that order!

But if I was after a BIG male Gos that is a different story I would go to a man that can produce the goods! Then it would be 3, 2 and 1:supz:

[PeregrinesUK]

You must do your homework its the number one thing these days with so many falcons being bred you need to be carefull. I want to know everything I want to see parents assess the reputaion of the breeder and check bloodlines especially with peregrines also see food hes feeding eyasses and parents. Also good clean pens, nice condition falcons and a good cuppa. Mike

[OutFlying]

You must do your homework its the number one thing these days with so many falcons being bred you need to be carefull. I want to know everything I want to see parents assess the reputaion of the breeder and check bloodlines especially with peregrines also see food hes feeding eyasses and parents. Also good clean pens, nice condition falcons and a good cuppa. Mike


good cuppa and biscuit - Mike

[Alf]

A lot would depend on the hawk or falcon you were buying? if there was only one breeder of a particular hawk in the UK then you could be stuck with what he has to offer unless you have already made prior arrangements abroad and you can go else where? When I go to by a spar at 10 days old If I cant see the parents for what ever reason I know I am buying good stock. :yawinkle: Alf.

[OutFlying]

A lot would depend on the hawk or falcon you were buying? if there was only one breeder of a particular hawk in the UK then you could be stuck with what he has to offer unless you have already made prior arrangements abroad and you can go else where? When I go to by a spar at 10 days old If I cant see the parents for what ever reason I know I am buying good stock. :yawinkle: Alf.


or see it's 17 sisters with no males bred :D

[Hawkmaster]

What does GOOD stock look like?

Everytime someone puts up a bird picture it is awesome quality!

[Alf]

Its amazing when that happens? :yawinkle: Alf.


or see it's 17 sisters with no males bred :D

[Kentish Falconry]

or see it's 17 sisters with no males bred :D

But does the Art10 tell you what tree it came from so you can go and select your own the next year :lol: :lol:

[Matthew Patching]

I look for breeders reputation, and in this day and age you can get to be realy fussy.

Breeders that have good reputation, generaly have good stock, nice facilities and produce a1 birds, regardless of how big the facility is.

I once went to a guys, and getting directions ended up in what I took to be a very scummy area of birmingham, considered turning around, then the guy came out, so that option got binned.

He took me round the house and it opened up to a huge (and I mean massive) back garden, builtiful pens, imaculate birds, and well taken care of in general. I was knocked off my feet, unfortunatly at the time I didnt realy understand the difference between flying weight and hunting weight so the saker that I bought, never realy came up to scratch, but this was my doing not the breeders.

Some of the best pens and birds I have ever seen have been bred on back gardens, so I never rule out small breeders even if I cant find out much about them, good breeders generaly will let you come and inspect parent birds before placing a deposit or garanteeing them a sale, so there is never realy a problem with this.

Alot of substandard bop producers ( I wouldnt go as far as saying breeders) dont even let you onto the back garden, normaly cuz they are ashamed of there pens, and the quality of there parent birds.

Thankfully these are few and far between.

I am never put off when I turn up and the bird is already out of the aviary, jessed up and sat hooded on the garden, this just shows that the breeder is prepared for you, what deos nark me a bit is when shown the parent birds that have young left in with them, and sat nice and fluffed up on a branch is the prettyest bird that you have ever seen, and the breeder says 'oh Im saving that for myself', but thats just a personality thing.

[Alf]

Something with no visible parents! :yawinkle: :lol:

What does GOOD stock look like?

Everytime someone puts up a bird picture it is awesome quality!

[Alf]

Depends on whose printing out the A10. :yawinkle: :D

But does the Art10 tell you what tree it came from so you can go and select your own the next year :lol: :lol:

[Barbary Boy]

Clean and tidy, is a must ,good sized pens , even for imprints, good feather , honesty, i once picked up a bird to imprint , the breeder told me it was 11 or so days old , when i looked at the paperwork it was 17 days old !!!!!

not neccesarily a rip off? it can get quite manic at breeding time and when a breeder fills in paperwork he sometimes has to use a little guess work?

[Scoffa]

Reputation of the breeder is most important. Try find who's bought birds in previous years and what those birds are like, weights etc. Whats the breeder like as a person is the house tidy if you get a cuppa. You can't do a great deal about the ***** inside the chamber but whats the outside like?


I am never put off when I turn up and the bird is already out of the aviary, jessed up and sat hooded on the garden, this just shows that the breeder is prepared for you,

I would rather see the bird in the chamber and get a choice of bird. Also it's less stress for the bird to be checked and handled once, it'll have had enough by the time it gets home.

[Barbary Boy]

everyone posting on his one obviously isnt a breeder? otherwise they wouldnt be posting what they are?

[Barbary Boy]

it really makes me laugh? everyones talking about vetting prospective breeders! looking at thier stock ? making sure they are "GOOD"breeders?
how the **** do you newbies know? ? YOU DONT? simple as? if your not an expert, how can you look at bird and say oh yes thats a quality so and so?

[As The Falcon Her Bells]

Keith, you have PM.

[Sprout]

everyone posting on his one obviously isnt a breeder? otherwise they wouldnt be posting what they are?

So as a breeder, what do you think people should look for?

Nu,ber one for me is reputation, I put a lot of research in first and speak to people who have bought/flown birds from a particular breeder first. What is concerning is the amount of birds that don;t make the grade so are thrown into aviaries for breeding as they weren't good enough to continue flying. 2 good birds don't necessarily produce good youngsters, however, you stand a better chance of getting a good bird out of such a pairing as opposed to 2 **** birds???

[Martin Whitley]

So as a breeder, what do you think people should look for?

Nu,ber one for me is reputation, I put a lot of research in first and speak to people who have bought/flown birds from a particular breeder first. What is concerning is the amount of birds that don;t make the grade so are thrown into aviaries for breeding as they weren't good enough to continue flying. 2 good birds don't necessarily produce good youngsters, however, you stand a better chance of getting a good bird out of such a pairing as opposed to 2 **** birds???
Very true, a lot of people (i'm afraid especiaslly harris hawk breeders ) will look for any male to go in with any female, and tell you they are breeding from top quality stock.there is a very real risk of in another 5 generations of be there being somne very useless hawks being bred, so check breeders reputation,and the length of tiime people have kept a bird from that breeder.
Also if a breeder you dont know will only meet you in a carpark somwhere run screaming from the door.

[Ben C]

when i looked at the paperwork it was 17 days old !!!!!


Thats cutting it a bit fine...........:supz:



Aside from all the other EXCELLENT stuff that has been posted....a lot of it has to do with 'feel'...not matter how nice the place is if the person is a **** either on the phone or in person.....well no money from me.

[Miguel Gomez]

I would never buy a bird from a Falconry Display centre, as there is a risk of breeding stock coming from numerous 'Given freebie birds, rescue birds' that have been collected over the years....

Got nothing against display centres, 'Rescued birds need to earn thier keep'

Miguel

[Talon]

just because a bird is given to a center or a bird is rescued doesnt mean it came from bad stock in the begging.so there for nothing wrong with breeding of it.so dont understand the reason wy you wouldnt buy a bird of them?
but thats your chose and entitled to do so.

[Sprout]

just because a bird is given to a center or a bird is rescued doesnt mean it came from bad stock in the begging.so there for nothing wrong with breeding of it.so dont understand the reason wy you wouldnt buy a bird of them?

I can understand the logic. A good bird is flown, season after season. I'd ask the question why is the bird in the rescue centre?? Maybe it didn;t make the grade?????

[Miguel Gomez]

I can understand the logic. A good bird is flown, season after season. I'd ask the question why is the bird in the rescue centre?? Maybe it didn;t make the grade?????

Most birds handed in to a Center, would most probably come from Newbies....who lacking the contacts would be lucky to end up with a good bird from good hunting stock....more like a nice temprement bird from Display stock...

I know what I'm saying is controversial, but as Sprout says their is logic in what I say...no offense to Display Centres that do a great job keeping 'Falconry' popular with the public.

Miguel

[Matthew Patching]

I like centre birds with or without the breeders having good reputation, they are normaly very steady, as they have been reared infront of the public, if the place looks ok and they look to be getting a good diet (ie check the floor of the pen if there is loads of yellow fluff then there is a good chance that they have had nothing but doc). They man down quicker and dont get as stressed in the first few days, this is all good from the point of veiw of my training methods.

[Matthew Patching]

Most birds handed in to a Center, would most probably come from Newbies....who lacking the contacts would be lucky to end up with a good bird from good hunting stock....more like a nice temprement bird from Display stock...

I know what I'm saying is controversial, but as Sprout says their is logic in what I say...no offense to Display Centres that do a great job keeping 'Falconry' popular with the public.

Miguel

I understand what you are saying completely, but what if the 'newbie' just couldnt make his charge shine, it could be a very good bird from very good stock but with little knowlege and limited field craft even the best of the best would suffer.

At most of the centres that I have been aquainted with any hand ins were always vetted for potential before being pared up, usualy over 2 seasons, and if they didnt make the grade then they normaly ended up as part of the display team.

[Barbary Boy]

I like centre birds with or without the breeders having good reputation, they are normaly very steady, as they have been reared infront of the public, if the place looks ok and they look to be getting a good diet (ie check the floor of the pen if there is loads of yellow fluff then there is a good chance that they have had nothing but doc). They man down quicker and dont get as stressed in the first few days, this is all good from the point of veiw of my training methods.

and thier usually cheap? which is a real bonus aye m8?

[Matthew Patching]

and thier usually cheap? which is a real bonus aye m8?

Not sure what your getting at? Hand ins are normaly free, (hence the word hand in)

As for centre birds being cheap, depends on the centre. I remember paying 900 for a tiny female pere, when you could pick them up out of cage and avery for 700. I never look at price when buying a bird, (which normaly gets me in trouble with the missus) I look for what I want in a bird and am prepared to pay what ever is being asked. If I found a particular line of birds that I was interested in and they were going far above the average price then this wouldnt put me off.

For instance I have been looking for a male perexsaker recently and one breeder said that he'd be doing them for about 200, (beacause he always get s left with the bloody ******** (his words) but having spoken to several people I have decided to go for a well known breeder who I have had excellent reports of, and seen 2 males and a female that he has bred flying corvids over the last 2 seasons and will be paying almost double that, so if your post was a dig at my morals, get off your high horse and stop with this *****.

[Talon]

and thier usually cheap? which is a real bonus aye m8?

wich centers do you know that ask cheeper prices than
the normal going rate of a bird.if any thing they usaly ask
top dollar.or at least the going rate.

allso if some one bought one of your barbary. made a ******s of it
then it was passed on and on then in the end it went to a so called
display center so that bird wouldnt be worth breeding of.?

[Sprout]

allso if some one bought one of your barbary. made a ******s of it
then it was passed on and on then in the end it went to a so called
display center so that bird wouldnt be worth breeding of.?

Not arguing with you, but personally would only buy a bird through recommendation or have personally seen the parents fly. You aren't guaranteed a good bird off good breeding stock, but the chances are far better than off an unknown quantity or un-proven bird. Hopefully if DEFRA allow the publishing of pedigrees it will make it easier to track and work out what may have the potential as opposed to in-bred, money grabbing, breed from ****, ****.

[Talon]

fare comment sprout.
but how many BIG breeders actuly fly the parent birds they breed of ?

[Matthew Patching]

fare comment sprout.
but how many BIG breeders actuly fly the parent birds they breed of ?

Most of them do or they go out on flying loan and are asessed on performances with there (normaly well known) falconers before being put in a chamber, (If they get that far)

Most large breeders relying on reputation to sell future ofspring will generaly make the effort to supply what they are being asked for, but alot of back yard breeders get let down on this as they dont get the recognition that they deserve, as there is only them assesing the birds performances.

I have a freind that is dreaming of setting up a breeding facility, and the best advice I could offer him is join clubs go on feild meets and get your birds recognised, but if you want to sell there ofspring make sure that they get recognised for good points not how long they take to recover after a flight!

[TimDog80]

word of mouth!!! i tend to trust the person i know who is recommending the birds to me through there own personal experience!!

or in other cases spars, peregrines (seagullbasher of the forums peregrine is out of them),merlins and others ill always buy from a friend who i help out alot as i have seen his birds first hand and what goes into them!!!! fresh quail as it goes as im incubating/rearing and culling them for him so there on fresh food too!!!

regards
tim:D

[Barbary Boy]

excellent post m8 and so so right? the trouble is you can be rupert guildroy with an internationally recognised name and claim to have falcons for rooks , falcons for game and so on ? people will believe it and que up to pay top dollar for thier birds. but fred smith has probably got just as good or better birds available, but no ones heard of him? so they end up buying what they believe to be "top birds" and freds birds go for a lot less to cheapskate falconers? its the way of the world? thats why ive attempted to get at least some of my birds into good falconers hands to prove thier ability? and it is starting to pay off?

[Miguel Gomez]

A Friend of mine bought a 2nd Hand Display Harris Hawk from a 'Display Centre' because it kept taking out Pheasants and Rabbits during displays.....so had to be sold on and became an excellent Hunting bird...it was explained however that it past siblings never had an interest in quarry, so made good display birds.....

So a good one from a display stock and you get the odd duffers from good hunting pairs, but less likely...

Also do 'Display centres' have the time to actually hunt these 'Hand me downs' before they get paired with another 'hand me down'? With so many birds there is'nt time to evaluate....

Miguel

[Matthew Patching]

A Friend of mine bought a 2nd Hand Display Harris Hawk from a 'Display Centre' because it kept taking out Pheasants and Rabbits during displays.....so had to be sold on and became an excellent Hunting bird...it was explained however that it past siblings never had an interest in quarry, so made good display birds.....

So a good one from a display stock and you get the odd duffers from good hunting pairs, but less likely...

Also do 'Display centres' have the time to actually hunt these 'Hand me downs' before they get paired with another 'hand me down'? With so many birds there is'nt time to evaluate....

Miguel

In the season at a falconry centres, general rule is come in feed everything then go out hunting, I have never had trouble finding time to hunt with hawks when working at centres. I have more trouble now with a somwhat relaxed work routine (at the moment) will be due to go crazy again at some point in the near future!

[Miguel Gomez]

Probably the best advice is join a club, go to fieldmeets and ask owners of exceptional birds, where they got them....even better if the Falconer himself is not exceptional....and they were'nt bred at a 'Display Centre':rolleyes: :D

Miguel

[Matthew Patching]

You dont like display centres much do you, (or birds from them anyway).

Having worked with hawks for the past 15 years at various establishments, (not all public demo centres) I am not going to argue, as I have and do see both sides of the coin, And agree with a bit of everything that has been said on this thread.

Wherever you get your bird from as long as you are 100% happy what deos it matter.

What ****es me off is when you sell a realy nice bird to (what seems like a nice guy at the time) a total ****** that rings you up 5 weeks down the line and says stuff like this birds imprinted, this bird screams, this bird is dead, etc. or you sell a nice social imprint and they turn it into a face grabbing lunatic in less time than it takes to drop toooooo much weight off of it.

Iam sure that there are some centres that just shove this in with that and hope, but I am certain (to the point where I would put every bird that I have ever handled on it) that there are far more centres than is realised that take pride in what they breed and select carefully from stock that they have at there disposal.

And I too am not a huge fan of centres but for completely different reasons than what are being expressed here!:roll: :D

[Scoffa]

it really makes me laugh? everyones talking about vetting prospective breeders! looking at thier stock ? making sure they are "GOOD"breeders?
how the **** do you newbies know? ? YOU DONT? simple as? if your not an expert, how can you look at bird and say oh yes thats a quality so and so?

The answer is we don't know but we do our best to find out the breeders rep. Also at the end of the day how the **** do experienced falconers know what a bird will perform like in the field? After training and entering the bird might be a bag of *****.

[MattSpar]

What do you expect when you collect a bird?



It all depends on whether it's a first date or not, and how much scotch I've drunk before meeting her.

[Ned]

It all depends on whether it's a first date or not, and how much scotch I've drunk before meeting her.
:supz: :supz:

[SpugHawk]

it really makes me laugh? everyones talking about vetting prospective breeders! looking at thier stock ? making sure they are "GOOD"breeders?
how the **** do you newbies know? ? YOU DONT? simple as? if your not an expert, how can you look at bird and say oh yes thats a quality so and so?

You make me laugh BB, "how the ****do you newbies know? YOU DONT?" thats why any one asks questions about prospective breeders if they dont know they ask, and its best to ask some one who does, preferbaly an expert which you clearly class your self as, its people like you who should be helping "newbies".
Its not a question of them being "GOOD breeders", its a question of does a breeder produce what you are looking for, so again you ask.
You are right you cant look at a bird and tell any thing other than, its in fine feather, so you ask.
IF YOU DONT KNOW ASK!

Regards Rob

ps i dont know you or your birds so ive been asking, wont blame you if you turn me away, i am a newbie to the IFF

[Scoffa]

excellent post m8 and so so right? the trouble is you can be rupert guildroy with an internationally recognised name and claim to have falcons for rooks , falcons for game and so on ? people will believe it and que up to pay top dollar for thier birds. but fred smith has probably got just as good or better birds available, but no ones heard of him? so they end up buying what they believe to be "top birds" and freds birds go for a lot less to cheapskate falconers? its the way of the world? thats why ive attempted to get at least some of my birds into good falconers hands to prove thier ability? and it is starting to pay off?

Surely the proof that any breeder produces top quality birds is, for a complete beginner to take 1 of their birds and train it so that other falconers ask who the bird came from.

[Dean]

A well developed healthy eyas in prestine feather! Availability to kit up the falcon,hood it and sit it upon a block for half hour or so before the journey home! Although a beautiful set up is impressive,rather the bird be the biz!:supz:

[Quiver]

Probably the best advice is join a club, go to fieldmeets and ask owners of exceptional birds, where they got them....even better if the Falconer himself is not exceptional....and they were'nt bred at a 'Display Centre':rolleyes: :D

Miguel
your not wrong there miguel.

chris.:yawinkle:

[YorkHawk]

I will just throw this in to see what stick I get but shouldn't part of the question be what do breeders look for in prospective buyers???????:-|

[Stu Bailey]

I will just throw this in to see what stick I get but shouldn't part of the question be what do breeders look for in prospective buyers???????:-|


Not part of the question,but a reletive & good one...:goodman:

[Sean D]

How much difference does it actually make if the parents are hunting stock, what I mean by this is that the eyass is taken away from the parents so it never gets to learn from them how to hunt, surely the predetory instincts are within the bird and it is down to the falconer to train that bird and bring out the best.

[Mark Collins]

How much difference does it actually make if the parents are hunting stock, what I mean by this is that the eyass is taken away from the parents so it never gets to learn from them how to hunt, surely the predetory instincts are within the bird and it is down to the falconer to train that bird and bring out the best.

Good stock is everthing, falcons, dogs, racehorses, having said that , a good falconer could make a good hawk from average parents , a bad falconer could make a bad hawk from excellent parents!!!, its all about bringing the best out in an individual , not just hunting, but condition [feather quality] and manners, hooding etc, in the wrong hands a good falcon can be spoilt very quickly ,mark.

[Falconry Equipment International]

Not part of the question,but a reletive & good one...:goodman:

I did a sister thread at the time this thread was 1st posted to this asking exactly this see here http://www.falconryforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=26106 HTH

[Magee]

i am looking to get fhh this year and would like 1st clutch
but am hearing good and bad about a lot of breeders can anyone pm me with good breeders contacts as id like to see if they match up with the ones i allready have thanks:D

[Dave G]

i would be looking for good size pens ? birds i very good feather condition and recommendation from folk who have brought from the breeder before ? and take alook in his freezer to see what the birds have been fed ;) as it shouldnt just be full of day old chicks lol , what would turn me away bad feather damage and screaming birds ?? a good breeder would have a good set up and take pride in what they breed ? and if a newbie turned up with a wad of cash but didnt know jack when questioned turn them away ??