Hunting with Other Species of Eagles

[Elly]

Question for the Eaglers on here.. I know the Golden Eagle is fairly widely regarded as the creme de la creme of hunting birds, and they are stunning.. BUT, what im wondering is how successfully other species have been used in falconry? Im mainly thinking of Steppes and Tawnys, because there seem to be a few being bred, and im wondering what they are ending up doing, as i dont seem to hear half as much about Steppes and Tawnys hunting as Goldies. Has anyone on here hunted successfully with either? Taking what prey? Hares as well as rabbits? And what are temperments and weights like? Why is the Golden Eagle preferred? Obviously it is superior in size, but that cant be all there is to it... I once asked a friend of a friend about hunting with Steppes/Tawnys and was scoffed at, being told they are more scavengers than hunters, same argument thrown at Common Buzzards... Any thoughts?

Sorry for all the questions, its all just curiosity. Was in one of my day dreams earlier about flying an eagle and in many years when i do get around to it, the idea of flying a smaller eagle appeals more to my puny arm muscles, plus i think Tawnys are stunning and the recent threads with them on got me thinking.. sorry, rambling now.. any insight, most welcome.

[Stu Bailey]

No little about eagles but should be a interesting thread....

[Matthew Patching]

'Other eagles' have been and still are hunted with, but with the exception of the black eagle and the wedgetail, have all been hit and miss hunters.

Goldies are revered within falconry because they have a hunting mentality, and frequently take game that far outsizes them, they are designed for this, having massive feet, and stamina by the cart load.

The naturaly orientate to fur, and are very capable hunters, both in the wild state, and with a human 'partner'

That it is possible to hunt with tawneys, steppes, and other aquilla's is not in doubt, but the time that geos into mentaly preparing these for demanding flights at quarry, is proberbly there major let down.

Even the goldiexsteppe hybrid takes more time to get into its stride.

With steppe eagles they have a tendancy to shy away from trees, which could greatly aid in there entering, and when inexperienced flyers there is a real danger of loss (or misplacment) when looking for soaring flights. So much of the early learning with these eagles is done off of the fist, which puts the bird at a disadvantage, usualy because they take too long to get into there stride when after rabbits, and may be not confident enough to try and tackle larger hares. Some would argue that the goldie is not seen at its best when flown from the fist, but unless you have seen a realy well prepared youngster go, comparisons with tawneys and steppes could be very similar.

A realy well prepared goldie on its first ever slip will fly with definite purpose, and it will give whatever setup it is presented with its utmost, unfortunatly the same cannot be said for tawneys and steppes, even with huge amounts of preperation, they may still not go with the gusto of there larger counterpart.

In conclusion I think the reason that so many scoff at the idea of hunting with tawneys and steppes, is because there have been so many bad ones that havnt made the grade, for one reason or another, when in reality a different approach could be the answer to unlocking the door.

Its a bit like getting a ferru and trying to fly it in a pine forest, the reason that more people dont work with them is because they have seen them flown & trained in the wrong situations! By people that dont think about what they are trying to achieve.

[Elly]

'Other eagles' have been and still are hunted with, but with the exception of the black eagle and the wedgetail, have all been hit and miss hunters.

Goldies are revered within falconry because they have a hunting mentality, and frequently take game that far outsizes them, they are designed for this, having massive feet, and stamina by the cart load.

The naturaly orientate to fur, and are very capable hunters, both in the wild state, and with a human 'partner'

That it is possible to hunt with tawneys, steppes, and other aquilla's is not in doubt, but the time that geos into mentaly preparing these for demanding flights at quarry, is proberbly there major let down.

Even the goldiexsteppe hybrid takes more time to get into its stride.

With steppe eagles they have a tendancy to shy away from trees, which could greatly aid in there entering, and when inexperienced flyers there is a real danger of loss (or misplacment) when looking for soaring flights. So much of the early learning with these eagles is done off of the fist, which puts the bird at a disadvantage, usualy because they take too long to get into there stride when after rabbits, and may be not confident enough to try and tackle larger hares. Some would argue that the goldie is not seen at its best when flown from the fist, but unless you have seen a realy well prepared youngster go, comparisons with tawneys and steppes could be very similar.

A realy well prepared goldie on its first ever slip will fly with definite purpose, and it will give whatever setup it is presented with its utmost, unfortunatly the same cannot be said for tawneys and steppes, even with huge amounts of preperation, they may still not go with the gusto of there larger counterpart.

In conclusion I think the reason that so many scoff at the idea of hunting with tawneys and steppes, is because there have been so many bad ones that havnt made the grade, for one reason or another, when in reality a different approach could be the answer to unlocking the door.

Its a bit like getting a ferru and trying to fly it in a pine forest, the reason that more people dont work with them is because they have seen them flown & trained in the wrong situations! By people that dont think about what they are trying to achieve.

Really great post Matt, thanks! I have only ever seen tawnys flown on demo before, and was just wondering what they are like in the field. Im sure there are also stacks of goldies not flown to their potential, but the attitude i have encountered thus far is that goldies are considered killers regardless of how well they have been trained and flown, and tawnys and steppes are not given half as much esteem, as you say, maybe because there have been plenty flown that have not really impressed. You may well be right in that perhaps no-one has quite cracked how to get the best out of them yet.

[ScuffMan]

Nice post Matt Eagle.
What Eagle did Bob Dalton use in Scotland on rabbit not so long back in the CountryMans weekly ?

[Barry]

I'll answer this in more depth when I have more time (I'm about to leave here) but in short and and in addition to Matts Eagles great post above:
I have hunted with Goldens, Verreaux, and Tawny Eagles. All three are maginificent if put to their best advantage. My personal preference by a long shot is the Verreaux, it appeals to my desire for exclusively waiting on flights where I feel it is possibly (prepared to be shot down here) even better than the Golden, not all in that it waits on better, more that it waits on for longer and more loyally.
The Golden, well, I'll try to add nothing from what has been written by Berkut except that they are out indigenous aquila and are built for our (upland) hunting.
The Tawny is a soaring superstar and if allowed to and encouraged to from the very start of training with extensive (about double that required by a Golden) lure/carcass work can make magnificent hunters. My male, Floyd is spectacular from tremendous pitch and will take rabbits if found well away from their holes in near vertical stoops, he takes hares too, but is (annoyingly) really upset by snow! He doesn't mind it falling, but if you are on patchy ground and step on to snow he goes crazy. If you flush a hare on heather he'll stoop it, flush it on snow and he'll refuse it! An annoying trait, but hey, he's a Tawny Eagle so I don't push him on the high ground, he prefers lighter winds, or better still thermals than either of the others.
If you remember it is a Tawny and not be upset by misses, losses and refusals of game from time to time they are great. If you want heavy game bags, pick another eagle!
I personally love to fly the Tawnys (I have four here) on summer thermals at lost from sight heights. I call them to fist or lure in summer and I'm happy for anyone to come and see it if you want.
I'll write more detail if this thread picks up and if anyone is interested.
Barry.

[Berkut]

I agree with a lot of what Matt says . One of the main reasons I think some of the other species of eagles perform so poorly is that they are just simply not cut out for our climate. Another reason (and this can go for goldens ) is that they are not suitably prepared by their handler for the field.
As Matt says, off the fist flying with goldens is often scoffed at , and quite rightly so because their performance in the field is poor .This is not the fault of the bird but due to the lack of effort that has been put in in relation to fitness etc.

I would fly "waiting on" every day of the week if I had the choice, but due to the large amounts of hares on ground that does not lend itself to waiting on I fly off the fist and catch bucket loads of hares.Not only that ,because I am flying out the hood I can engineer a lot of far more challenging flights ( or easy ones for an inexperienced eagle if required.).

Off the fist or waiting on in this country ,a fit goldie will win every day for me and takes a bit of beating.

Nothing wrong with having a go with some of the other types if they tickle your fancy and you are prepared to put the hours in.

As you know I flew the black eagle this season just gone, and wasn,t as pleased as I had hoped with the results off the fist . From the waiting on he may well be a different kettle of fish or if I could try a youngster from scratch the results might have been better. Either way , again , I think the climate is far from ideal to get the best from a Verreaux.

[Elly]

I'll answer this in more depth when I have more time (I'm about to leave here) but in short and and in addition to Matts Eagles great post above:
I have hunted with Goldens, Verreaux, and Tawny Eagles. All three are maginificent if put to their best advantage. My personal preference by a long shot is the Verreaux, it appeals to my desire for exclusively waiting on flights where I feel it is possibly (prepared to be shot down here) even better than the Golden, not all in that it waits on better, more that it waits on for longer and more loyally.
The Golden, well, I'll try to add nothing from what has been written by Berkut except that they are out indigenous aquila and are built for our (upland) hunting.
The Tawny is a soaring superstar and if allowed to and encouraged to from the very start of training with extensive (about double that required by a Golden) lure/carcass work can make magnificent hunters. My male, Floyd is spectacular from tremendous pitch and will take rabbits if found well away from their holes in near vertical stoops, he takes hares too, but is (annoyingly) really upset by snow! He doesn't mind it falling, but if you are on patchy ground and step on to snow he goes crazy. If you flush a hare on heather he'll stoop it, flush it on snow and he'll refuse it! An annoying trait, but hey, he's a Tawny Eagle so I don't push him on the high ground, he prefers lighter winds, or better still thermals than either of the others.
If you remember it is a Tawny and not be upset by misses, losses and refusals of game from time to time they are great. If you want heavy game bags, pick another eagle!
I personally love to fly the Tawnys (I have four here) on summer thermals at lost from sight heights. I call them to fist or lure in summer and I'm happy for anyone to come and see it if you want.
I'll write more detail if this thread picks up and if anyone is interested.
Barry.

Another great post, thanks Barry. I would definately love to hear more about your Tawnys. And also about the Verreaux? Weights and temperments? I guess the problem with eagles at rabbits is that the chases tend to be a lot shorter than with hares, not sure how well such a quick dash would suit eagles, unless, as you said, taken from a stoop well away from the warren. I would love to come and see them fly at some point, i wont be in Scotland until early next year by the look of things, but if you wouldnt mind, i would love to see them in action.

[Ben C]

Harlans????

[Gary F]

I'll answer this in more depth when I have more time (I'm about to leave here) but in short and and in addition to Matts Eagles great post above:
I have hunted with Goldens, Verreaux, and Tawny Eagles. All three are maginificent if put to their best advantage. My personal preference by a long shot is the Verreaux, it appeals to my desire for exclusively waiting on flights where I feel it is possibly (prepared to be shot down here) even better than the Golden, not all in that it waits on better, more that it waits on for longer and more loyally.
The Golden, well, I'll try to add nothing from what has been written by Berkut except that they are out indigenous aquila and are built for our (upland) hunting.
The Tawny is a soaring superstar and if allowed to and encouraged to from the very start of training with extensive (about double that required by a Golden) lure/carcass work can make magnificent hunters. My male, Floyd is spectacular from tremendous pitch and will take rabbits if found well away from their holes in near vertical stoops, he takes hares too, but is (annoyingly) really upset by snow! He doesn't mind it falling, but if you are on patchy ground and step on to snow he goes crazy. If you flush a hare on heather he'll stoop it, flush it on snow and he'll refuse it! An annoying trait, but hey, he's a Tawny Eagle so I don't push him on the high ground, he prefers lighter winds, or better still thermals than either of the others.
If you remember it is a Tawny and not be upset by misses, losses and refusals of game from time to time they are great. If you want heavy game bags, pick another eagle!
I personally love to fly the Tawnys (I have four here) on summer thermals at lost from sight heights. I call them to fist or lure in summer and I'm happy for anyone to come and see it if you want.
I'll write more detail if this thread picks up and if anyone is interested.
Barry.
nice reply barry,,hopefully this thread will pick up,some good info from yourself,matt, and berkut

[Barry]

Hi Elly, you'd be very welcome to come along and come out with us with the eagles.

Interest in Verreaux eagles has been and remains high. I had the pleasure of starting one as a youngster 11 years ago. A female bred by Mima at NBPC. This is the bird that sadly died last year aged 10:cry:. I have also been involved with another from a youngster, this one a male, and have been out hunting with yet another, this one now around 14 years old.
The consistent things which should lead to a good indication of the species abilities (indication because more birds need to be flown to allow a broader data base of knowledge) are these:

1/ They are **** in the British (especially Scottish) climate in their immature plumage.
2/ They are a bit better in mature plumage, but still **** really!
3/ In their first few years they will chase and take game off the fist with limited success and enthusiasm.
4/ In subsequent years as the falconer allows for more waiting on time and pitch, the bird learns about its own design which means it is a waiting on specialist. It becomes profficient at killing from waiting on and as it does its desire to chase game off the fist is dramatically reduced and the bird begins to give up easily and seems to lack drive. They remain fairly keen to chase rabbits off the fist in the open as they retain the ability to catch them, but an eagle for rabbits - nah!
5/ They will wait on for hours in strong updraft. If they lose sight of the falconer they will come looking for him, even calling (otherwise entirely silent) if the falconer remains unsighted.
6/ They like West Highland Terriers!
7/ They have a wonderful nature, are gentle and kind and non-aggressive to the falconer.
8/ They bond more closely to the falconer than a Golden Eagle after a few years.
9/ They can (two of the three birds I know well) be nervous of strangers when young.
10/ The lack the steering, brakes and low speed agility of Goldens.

Many of these things can be understood with a good grounding of the bird anatomy and natural history. For those who are interested and want a big read with a stack of statistics, read The Black Eagle by Val' Gargett.

The Verreaux has a big spoon shaped wing which produces a larger overall wing surface area than a Golden Eagle if the wing length is the same. The bird has a slightly steeper dihedral angle than a golden offering greater stability when soaring. The spoon shape wing puts a large surface area at the outer reach of the birds wing. This means flapping flight puts massive pectoral strain on the bird which naturally means it does not want to do it, and it's not effective when it does. Getting those spoons rowing at the air is slow and hard so acceleration a shown by a fit Golden eagle is missing. The spoons score when the wind is going straight up as it does around the rock koppies which are just about a pre-requisite for Verreaux Eagles in Africa. They catch the wind by the bucket load and allow the bird to make tremendous height incredibly quickly. Also when the updraft is marginal, the bird cathes more of it with this wing design so it can soar in marginal conditions when a heavier Golden, with smaller wing area (higher wing loading) would be pumping for height. When the Verrueaux pulls the wing half in, the spoon section meets the body producing a shape like the stealth fighter plane giving high speed and agile controlled stooping over long distances with shallow angles of attack, highly effective for game at a distance.
However the tail is very short compared to a Golden so when the speed is scrubbed off, low speed agility is poor. In addition, once grounded the golden may up and power after fleeing game, the Verreaux will not unless there is strong updraft, at which point she will get up again and again at a hare fleeing up hill. They just about blank any game that is down wind.

In the wild the pair will co-operatively hunt routinely and are very closely bonded throughout the season. They are real love-eagles. This I believe is where the falconer bonding and insistence in having the falconer in sight comes from. I feel the Golden Eagle exploits the falconer as usefull to have around to help find hares, the Verreaux wants you around as it considers you more important to its success than the Golden does.

They also take a wide range of game from Hyrax being the main prey through hares, francolin, antelope (my friend in Kenya recently had a re-hab' verreaux take a full grown Thompsons Gazelle recently) etc.

I hope one day to be able to give all there is to know about these birds. They are my passion and what I want to fly for the rest of my life and to my box in the ground. I'm hoping to get to Africa quite soon to stay with Simon Thomsett and study them to complete my understanding.

Barry.

[Elly]

Wow. Another fantastic read Barry. I can see you have a real passion for the Black Eagle. Interesting about the differences between the goldie and verreaux too in terms of flight styles and how they adapt to different hunting scenarios (off the fist/soaring etc). The trip to Africa sounds like a golden opportunity for you to really get to know these birds in the truest sense, out in the wild.
With the one you flew from a youngster, bred by JPJ, how was it reared? With it being 11 years ago, i am assuming it was parent reared as imprinting eagles only seems to have caught on over here comparabley recently? How did you find the temperment in the early stages? And did you fly to the fist or to a lure? Forgive me if i have read your post wrong, but it seems to me that from your experience, they tend to come into their element a few years in, when they discover how to use the wind and begin gaining height to take prey from a stoop?
Apologies for the incessant questions, am finding this fascinating!

[Barry]

Hi Elly,

The Verreaux does not adapt and exploit differing situations in the way the Golden does. Their topographical requirements are very specific in the wild and are thus range restricted. The Golden is more adaptable and capable in a range of locations which has evolved the bird into an adaptive and developing bird in falconry. The Verreaux is limited outside its' own design needs. However, what it does naturally is what I want from my eagle so for me it is not a negative point, quite the opposite in fact. My Verreaux was eagle reared - by tawny Eagles! The younger male I have worked with was reared by its own parents and shows mirror image behaviour. The older bird was also reared by Tawny Eagles. My Golden Eagle is also captive bred parent reared in seclusion, so my comparisons are comparable through rearing similarities with no allowances having to be made for rearing/imprinting differences.

The Verreaux is much more accepting of people and less tetchy during manning than the Golden as long as a single person or people are involved. If you have several people involved, although the long term should be a bird that will fly to anyone, the Verreaux does not settle well and becomes stressed. It's better to introduce other people when the bird is 100% settled with one or two people.

The Verreauxs I have been involved with all got much better with their developing ability to work from waiting on, however, I don't think this is as much the bird needing the time to develop, more the falconer being willing to let the bird go up from the start. My female was encouraged to go up from day one and she was certainly the quickest to enter and take game persistently. However, although the others were worked harder off the fist in their early years than mine, none of them performed any better off the fist than she did long term. Bottom line is they don't want to do it. They can and will if pushed but success is poor and motivation soon goes away. They are better flown at higher weight and from waiting on where they are deadly.
When I'm done with my commercial life I want to fly one eagle hard every day until I die. It will be a Verreaux waiting on, in fact if I die by falling off a mountain while looking up at a Verreaux going into a stoop I'll die a happy man!!

Barry

[Barry]

Hi Elly, sorry I forgot to answer, I flew the Verreaux to the fist only during early rudimentary training, then I transferred her to dragged carcasses, I never used a faked lure. Her response to the fist was never compromised, she always came in fine when needed with never a single moment of aggression. On game she was a dream, never footy or aggressive, you could go in bare handed from her first hit on a dragged carcass as a young bird in training to the last hare she killed.
Barry

[Elly]

Thanks Barry, your responses on this thread have been exactly what i was after. :D

[D Thomas]

Great Thread Elly, and thanks for the indepth posts Barry.

Is there any chance of some pics of your birds Barry.

Thanks again:lol:

[Hacker]

top posts,
nice to get another real insight into this fasinating subject:supz:

[Christo]

I had a Marshall Eagle that was brought to me for rehabilitation as it was poised. I flew it for almost a year before releasing it.
It was probably the clumsiest and the most costly bird I have ever had but the experience of having an eagle was amazing .They don’t compare to the speed or agility of other types of Falconry birds but they are in a class of there own with there shear power. I had some amazing hunts with my Marshall as it would look at everything as a target .I had two English pointers at the time and I still remember the reaction the dogs gave the first time they saw him spread his wings (FEAR). I mostly hunted rock rabbits as they were easy prey but on one occasion we had a miss on a duiker which is a small antelope.
It is a totally different experience with a large eagle and at the same time a lot of work as keeping the bird in the correct condition and weight but a dedicated Falconer will totally appreciate an eagle.