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View Full Version : Wide Anklets for Small Accipiters?


BestBeagler
25-04-2007, 08:16 PM
What do you all think and use? I tried thinner anklets on my first passage coopers and it caused scale displacement. I now use wider ones, but not wide enough to cause feather damage on the upper part of the tarsi. This is one of my pet peeves, I can't stand upper feather damage on the tarsi :evil: . Isaac

Tim Laycock
25-04-2007, 08:36 PM
I use wide anklets on all accipiters.
Its foolish not to!

People think large accipiters dont need them....The worst leg scale damage I have ever seen was on a couple of imprint female Goshawks owned by a forum member.

ScuffMan
25-04-2007, 08:44 PM
I think wider anklets are better on Spars and Gos. I just think it's better all round support and they look better, also give a bit if protection. just my opinion.
Neil.

TimDog80
25-04-2007, 08:52 PM
all ways used wide anklets and always will!!!

Rob999
25-04-2007, 09:41 PM
i would use wider, but with out going daft. wider the better as basically as with anything if you can spread the surface area of contact, in this case of jess to leg then it will lessen the chance of rubbing. (naturally the jess will be correctly sized around ankle)
hope this doesnt sound patronising in any way. :-| i've always feathered both top and bottom edges of jess' for comfort.:-)

ScuffMan
25-04-2007, 09:51 PM
i would use wider, but with out going daft. wider the better as basically as with anything if you can spread the surface area of contact, in this case of jess to leg then it will lessen the chance of rubbing. (naturally the jess will be correctly sized around ankle)
hope this doesnt sound patronising in any way. :-| i've always feathered both top and bottom edges of jess' for comfort.:-)

I agree :supz:

Tim Laycock
25-04-2007, 09:52 PM
I feather top and bottom on hawks.
Bottom only with falcons

Stu Bailey
25-04-2007, 10:08 PM
I think wider anklets are better on Spars and Gos. I just think it's better all round support and they look better, also give a bit if protection. just my opinion.
Neil.

And a very good opinion in my opinion:confused:

Stu Bailey
25-04-2007, 10:10 PM
Reason for editing "spilling" what a dope....:rolleyes:

BestBeagler
25-04-2007, 10:22 PM
I always feather the top and bottom of my anklets. Just the way I was trained. Isaac

Jack
26-04-2007, 02:51 AM
Issac, I have a completely different take on it. I used to use wide anklets, but have in the past 20 odd years started making them as narrow as the leather would allow. I like to roll them to make them sort of roundish. I also like to make them much larger than than the tarsi in diameter. They can be way out loose and still not come off over the ball of the foot. There is a theory behind my reasoning. The wide anklets, even with the feathered edges, tend to cause a breaking point against the leg up at the top edge. The jess pulling evenly against the anklet during a bate will cause this to happen. The bird will pitch forward and the anklet will pull back on the leg. To get an idea how that works, you just take a pencil between the thumb and first finger and try to push it over and break it with the other hand. Then take hold of it with the thumb and 2 fingers. When that happens the pencil usually breaks. So greater support offers the possiblilty of a fracture. That and allowing too much leash. This is always a problem if the hawk is allowed to stand and bate.

Jack

FredrickFogg
26-04-2007, 03:28 AM
Issac, I have a completely different take on it. I used to use wide anklets, but have in the past 20 odd years started making them as narrow as the leather would allow. I like to roll them to make them sort of roundish. I also like to make them much larger than than the tarsi in diameter. They can be way out loose and still not come off over the ball of the foot. There is a theory behind my reasoning. The wide anklets, even with the feathered edges, tend to cause a breaking point against the leg up at the top edge. The jess pulling evenly against the anklet during a bate will cause this to happen. The bird will pitch forward and the anklet will pull back on the leg. To get an idea how that works, you just take a pencil between the thumb and first finger and try to push it over and break it with the other hand. Then take hold of it with the thumb and 2 fingers. When that happens the pencil usually breaks. So greater support offers the possiblilty of a fracture. That and allowing too much leash. This is always a problem if the hawk is allowed to stand and bate.

Jack

I agree! I think high anklets on a small bird puts too much pressure at the top of the anklet. I prefer a small anklet so when the bird bates, the pressure is at the ankle of the foot and not actually on the leg. I have had small anklets on my coops for a year now and no problems and I always used small anklets on my kestrels with no problems. Of course, having a bird that doesn't bate much solves most problems.

Fred

DirtHawker
26-04-2007, 05:11 AM
I feather top and bottom on hawks.
Bottom only with falcons

Why only bottom on falcons, when it only takes a few seconds to feather the tops? Having never flown a falcon, I am certainly not challenging your way of doing things, just curious.

GoodFooter
26-04-2007, 08:06 AM
for an accipiter wide anklets with a good ''cuff'' both top and bottom ie fair size cuts in the aylmeris both top & bottom to give a soft buffer.
....when first training especially a young bird I would put a little elastoplast material plaster on the heel above the back toe...that would stop any rubbing until the gos has settled and scales toughened up a bit by which time the plaster will have worn off.
Rob

Tim Laycock
26-04-2007, 11:48 AM
Why only bottom on falcons, when it only takes a few seconds to feather the tops? Having never flown a falcon, I am certainly not challenging your way of doing things, just curious.

The shape of a wide aylmeri stops the ring going down inside the aylmeri.
Feathered tops on straight cut anklets do a fine job of directing the ring (if fitted) inside the aylmeri and against the leg.
Hardly ideal.

BestBeagler
26-04-2007, 02:09 PM
Now Jack, I do not doubt your experience, and if your method works for you that is great, but I canít even imagine using what you suggested. Here is why. The scales on the raptors leg face downward like this.
^
^
^
In my limited experience -with passage coopers- what happens with a small loose anklet is that the when the birds bates a thinner anklet is able to ride up and down the tarsi a lot more, and a lot more violently with each bate, thus causing more friction on the leg and greater chance of scale displacement to occur. Also since the anklet is thinner and looser it was able to chew up the upper feathers of the tarsi. Again, I canít stand upper feather damage on a birdís tarsus, but this is just me. Some falconers donít seem to mind too much. I donít just have an opinion based on whatever; it is actually based on experience, limited as it may be. I was in the mindset of using smaller/thinner anklets as well. I used them on my first cooper and scale displacement occurred causing swelling and irritation, thankfully they healed up nicely after switching to a winder anklet. I use a wider and tighter anklet on my last passage coopers and I had no problem whatsoever. There is a happy medium when it comes to the tightness of the anklet, to loose and it rides up the tarsus causing feather damage. If it is to tight the obvious occurs. As we both know a passage cooper is what I call a ďbate aholicĒ and they seem to be bent on self-destruction when in captivity. I have heard of cases of ďtameĒ passage coopers. I guess I have not been lucky enough yet to get one. Isaac

ScuffMan
26-04-2007, 02:38 PM
Like what you say there Isaac, especially the first three or four lines.

BestBeagler
26-04-2007, 02:40 PM
Oh, one other thing. I like to have the smooth side of the leather against the tarsi and the suede on the outside I believe it causes les friction. Isaac

BestBeagler
26-04-2007, 02:41 PM
Like what you say there Isaac, especially the first three or four lines.

Yeah, I get kind of long winded :lol: . Isaac

ScuffMan
26-04-2007, 02:44 PM
Oh, one other thing. I like to have the smooth side of the leather against the tarsi and the suede on the outside I believe it causes les friction. Isaac

I do exactly the same.....people keep saying, have you put those anklets on back to front.

Tim Laycock
26-04-2007, 02:59 PM
I never put the smooth of the hide inwards unless its on feathered tarsi

Nigg
28-04-2007, 01:01 PM
i would use wider, but with out going daft. wider the better as basically as with anything if you can spread the surface area of contact, in this case of jess to leg then it will lessen the chance of rubbing. (naturally the jess will be correctly sized around ankle)
hope this doesnt sound patronising in any way. :-| i've always feathered both top and bottom edges of jess' for comfort.:-)

Ill second that . Nigg

Jack
28-04-2007, 11:38 PM
Actually, the narrow, but loose anklets tend not to ride up with a bate. They tend to go down around the lower tarsi and onto the foot. If it is loose it moves smoothly as long as it is feathered and rolled. The Scales grow downward, and so anything being rubbed upward would damage them. Constant bating is going to damage the tarsi no matter what type of anklet you use, but you can reduce the likelihood of serious damage by use of the loose and narrow anklets. The break point at the top edge is completely illiminated from them.
Like everyone else, I have had to learn these things strictly through trial and error. I have flown a large number of passage Coopers, and have had some so tame you would think they were stuffed and mounted. This is not to say I was able to do that strictly with manning. There is just so many hours in a day to man a hawk, so if you work with them like I have, no one can surpass you in time spent. It is only part of the package. Dietary manipulation and weight are the true deciding factors here. Get the weight just right and the hawk will become so tame that you would think it an imprint.
I have other methods of tethering an accipiter, but the world is just not ready for them yet. I would stir up a wasps nest if I told it here.

Jack

BestBeagler
29-04-2007, 12:15 AM
Actually, the narrow, but loose anklets tend not to ride up with a bate. They tend to go down around the lower tarsi and onto the foot. If it is loose it moves smoothly as long as it is feathered and rolled. The Scales grow downward, and so anything being rubbed upward would damage them. Constant bating is going to damage the tarsi no matter what type of anklet you use, but you can reduce the likelihood of serious damage by use of the loose and narrow anklets. The break point at the top edge is completely illiminated from them.
Like everyone else, I have had to learn these things strictly through trial and error. I have flown a large number of passage Coopers, and have had some so tame you would think they were stuffed and mounted. This is not to say I was able to do that strictly with manning. There is just so many hours in a day to man a hawk, so if you work with them like I have, no one can surpass you in time spent. It is only part of the package. Dietary manipulation and weight are the true deciding factors here. Get the weight just right and the hawk will become so tame that you would think it an imprint.
I have other methods of tethering an accipiter, but the world is just not ready for them yet. I would stir up a wasps nest if I told it here.

Jack

Jack,
I know you have trained a large number of passage coopers hawks and look forward to learning some tricks from you concerning them. We are both doing what we think is right for our birds even if we differ in our philosophy of anklet attachment. What ever works is what matters. There are some people who agree on the wider anklets others on the thinner type. How thin are you actually talking about? I have been happy with about 25mm wide or about 1inch. PM about your unconventional method of tethering a raptor. I am curious. Although, I am more than happy with my method. Isaac

Mac
19-05-2007, 01:33 PM
i have always used and will always use wide anklets on my accipiters,

a very good friend of mine, a lad who works as a developmental engineer for the offshore oil industry, (he actually did a placement at N.A.S.A during his PHd was offered a job paying over 100k a year the day after he graduated! he is in all honesty, the most academically brilliant individual i have ever encountered.)

anyway my friend was amazed when i explained to him the logic behind wide anklets on nervy birds he explained at length, why wide anklets are a BAD move he explained friction dynamics, contact management issues, and the effects of variables, ie leash length, gravity, weather and atmospheric fluctuations on the overall dynamic.

he remarked by increasing the surface area of the anklet then all we are in actual fact doing is increasing then the contact or "catch point" area and then not only increasing the chance of scale damage but increasing the stress point area to the top of the jess.

his suggestion was very similar to the one suggested by jack on this thread.

personally i have never taken him up on his advice as whilst mark may be bright he hasnt trained so much as a gerbil!


all the best

sean

Tim Laycock
19-05-2007, 02:02 PM
personally i have never taken him up on his advice as whilst mark may be bright he hasnt trained so much as a gerbil!


:supz: :supz: :supz: :supz:

Jack
19-05-2007, 03:11 PM
Sean, even if he has never trained a hawk, his logic is still sound. There are other things that can be done to prevent leg damage in smaller accipiters. I like the tie off to be several inches above the ground level, which actually causes the bird to pitch forward at the end of a bate. This not only prevents the tail from being jammed back into the ground, it also causes the loose, narrow anklets to slide downward to the ball of the hawks foot. It does not take the sudden jerk from coming to the end of the leash away, but it just removes the potential for fractures and worn scales.
A good way to understand this is to wear a pair of high top leather boots that are fairly stiff, tie a rope through the leather about half way up the back, tie it off to something on the ground, then run and jump against the rope. Do this a few times and see how that feels. Then just loop the rope around the ankle loosely and do it. you will see the difference I think. Also, the length of the leash is a serious consideration. The hawk needs no more than is required to bath. A while back there was a rash of broken legs in Harris hawks here. When they were first becoming very populer here everyone seemed to have one. They would perch them on a high bow perch with a long leash. The ones that wore the wider anklets seemed to suffer fractures and even broken tarsi. I have also seen Cooper's hawks with crooked tarsi, bowlegged if you will, from bating a great deal with wide anklets and a low tie off.

Jack

ArizonaFalconer
31-05-2007, 05:14 PM
Though its not an accipiter, I used wide, soft anklets on an American Kestrel that had issues with bating. He had some leg scale damage due to it. The soft, wide anklets cut down on the rubbing, and his leg scales healed really well..

Tim Laycock
31-05-2007, 06:45 PM
Though its not an accipiter, I used wide, soft anklets on an American Kestrel that had issues with bating. He had some leg scale damage due to it. The soft, wide anklets cut down on the rubbing, and his leg scales healed really well..

Stands to reason :supz: :supz: :supz:

BestBeagler
31-05-2007, 10:58 PM
Thatís exactly what happened with my passage coopers and the results where the same. Isaac

Though its not an accipiter, I used wide, soft anklets on an American Kestrel that had issues with bating. He had some leg scale damage due to it. The soft, wide anklets cut down on the rubbing, and his leg scales healed really well..

Sprout
01-06-2007, 12:52 AM
Sean, even if he has never trained a hawk, his logic is still sound. There are other things that can be done to prevent leg damage in smaller accipiters. I like the tie off to be several inches above the ground level, which actually causes the bird to pitch forward at the end of a bate. This not only prevents the tail from being jammed back into the ground, it also causes the loose, narrow anklets to slide downward to the ball of the hawks foot. It does not take the sudden jerk from coming to the end of the leash away, but it just removes the potential for fractures and worn scales.
A good way to understand this is to wear a pair of high top leather boots that are fairly stiff, tie a rope through the leather about half way up the back, tie it off to something on the ground, then run and jump against the rope. Do this a few times and see how that feels. Then just loop the rope around the ankle loosely and do it. you will see the difference I think. Also, the length of the leash is a serious consideration. The hawk needs no more than is required to bath. A while back there was a rash of broken legs in Harris hawks here. When they were first becoming very populer here everyone seemed to have one. They would perch them on a high bow perch with a long leash. The ones that wore the wider anklets seemed to suffer fractures and even broken tarsi. I have also seen Cooper's hawks with crooked tarsi, bowlegged if you will, from bating a great deal with wide anklets and a low tie off.

Jack

I understand your logic Jack, but have a completely different take on it. What causes the fracture when a bird bates is related to the momentum and the weight of the bird pushing against a pivot (the anklet) and a fixed point (foot on ground). Having a narrow anklet that doesn;t ride up (agree with you there) the momentum and leverage is greater at the point of the anklet as it is lower down on the tarsus than if you were using a wider anklet where the breaking point is higher up the leg. IF the anklet is fitted correctly, the weight/momentum should be spread over a wider area on a wider anklet further reducing the risk of a fracture as opposed to a much narrower point of contact on a thin anklet.

That is my logic anyway. I personally use wider anklets.

Jack
01-06-2007, 02:06 AM
understand your logic Jack, but have a completely different take on it. What causes the fracture when a bird bates is related to the momentum and the weight of the bird pushing against a pivot (the anklet) and a fixed point (foot on ground). Having a narrow anklet that doesn;t ride up (agree with you there) the momentum and leverage is greater at the point of the anklet as it is lower down on the tarsus than if you were using a wider anklet where the breaking point is higher up the leg. IF the anklet is fitted correctly, the weight/momentum should be spread over a wider area on a wider anklet further reducing the risk of a fracture as opposed to a much narrower point of contact on a thin anklet.

That is my logic anyway. I personally use wider anklets.

It sounds logical for sure, but then when you look at the way the bird is actually tethered it gives cause to rethink. The hawk stands upright, and is tethered at the very bottom at the feet. Any momentum is going to cause the top to pitch forward and the bottom backwards. Only the bottom is in a very fixed position, held there by the leash itself. This causes the hawk to pitch forward more violently. This makes the break point at the top of the anklet more defined. It might not cause damage, but if the hawk bates enough and hard enough it will eventually cause some damage.
The American Cooper's hawk, the passage hawks anyway, are extreme baters. I had a friend sit and count the bates his young hawk made in an hour. It bated about 70 times, which means it bated in less than a minute, over and over. Not only did it bate 70 times in an hour, but at each bate the bird recovered and lunged against the leash several times before going back to perch. He had tried about everything he could think of to prevent this kind of bating, and eventually managed to start hooding her just before it was time to go hunting. This bating was caused by anticipation. But for whatever the reason, the birds legs were bowed and right at the middle of the bow was a knot. Xrays showed them to be fractures that had occured, healed over, and occured again, over and over.
In such cases it is actually bating that is the real problem. No matter what you do or how you jess a hawk up, bating continually is going to present problems for you. The best setup is only going to put it off a little longer, but if the bird is not dealt with early on, with serious bating it is subject to suffer from injury. I guess it all comes down to personal preference.

Jack

BestBeagler
01-06-2007, 11:17 PM
I guess it all comes down to personal preference.

Jack

:supz: :supz: :supz:

rand
06-06-2007, 02:48 PM
Unnecessary and unwanted constant bating from ANY hawk needs looking into. for example, sat on a perch waiting to be fed, uncontented, possibly stressed out by something, not fully manned down, or actions all due to negative conditioning, the problem should be recognised and dealt with. There is absolutely no excusable reason why a coopers hawk should continually bate, when a normally otherwise nervous sparrowhawk would be contented to perch in a relaxed and steady manner. I have flown both. A lot of it is down to an individuals management teqniques. As far as damaged scales on the legs, fit leather anklets with smooth side inside always. Some falconers like to see coloured posh looking anklets, placing the rough side against the skin. If anklets are allowed to harden or dry out, the leather acts like a file or sandpaper. Wide fitting helps prevent primarily UPPER META TARSUS injury or leg breakage from bating. It is not a guaranteed solution. Both a female Steppe eagle and a Female Ferruginous broke both legs on different occasions, from excessive stress related bating, and badly fitted anklets, while bowed out at a falconry centre. Enter the equation, one billy goat on a 'long' tether. By the way, de scaling or peeling or shedding of skin on the meta tarsus of the legs is often seen in much older accipiters. also raised hard lumpy areas. It is not primarily due to a problem with anklets, but something that happens with some birds yet not with others. We have had free lofted birds do it, with no equipement fitted. one example was my 19 year old retired passage Hungarian female gos, plus an old male, and a friends finnish breeding gos. Dry looking skin on feet and legs should warrant investigation. Lack of hydration, Ie.adequate water in the diet .With handled hawks, after they are fed, I gently scrub the feet with a soft tooth brush to remove any chance of ingrained dirt between the scales of the feet etc, after feeding. I then rub in johnsons baby oil or lanolin, in between regreasing of anklets weekly. This helps keep the skin supple and looking healthy. In my personal experience, Falcons do not seem to suffer from descaling like accipiters do.
best wishes rand

ScuffMan
06-06-2007, 03:46 PM
And I'll follow that Post with....UUUUUM, I'll think of something in a minute. :lol:

Gos702
06-06-2007, 04:17 PM
Forgive me for I am a mere learner, but i would have thought that if something was moving forward with force (i.e a bating bird) and had a narrow item attached to it that would put all the forward force onto the one small area therefore resulting in surface damage to the said area, but if a wider attachment was used then the force is spread over a larger surface area thus resulting in less or no damage. makes sense to me anyway if no one else. :rolleyes:

Jo;)

Tim Laycock
06-06-2007, 04:28 PM
Forgive me for I am a mere learner, but i would have thought that if something was moving forward with force (i.e a bating bird) and had a narrow item attached to it that would put all the forward force onto the one small area therefore resulting in surface damage to the said area, but if a wider attachment was used then the force is spread over a larger surface area thus resulting in less or no damage. makes sense to me anyway if no one else. :rolleyes:

Jo;)

Carefull, thats correctly applied physics! :supz:

Gos702
06-06-2007, 04:36 PM
Carefull, thats correctly applied physics! :supz:

:lol: :lol: :lol:
Jo

1ABHawker
06-06-2007, 04:40 PM
Surley if thin is best some nice thin strong copper wire or cheese wire would be best, you'd not have to worry bout scale damage for long l.o.l

Tim Laycock
06-06-2007, 05:10 PM
Surley if thin is best some nice thin strong copper wire or cheese wire would be best, you'd not have to worry bout scale damage for long l.o.l

Exactly :!:
Explodes some of the **** talked on this thread perfectly :supz:

The only accipiters I have ever seen with scale damage were fitted with narrow anklets.
I have laid my eyes on one or two.

Gos702
06-06-2007, 05:16 PM
Jeez you mean instead of faff ars1n about with anklets we could have just slapped some wiry bits on n bobs yer uncle fannys yer ant. no more damage. wahheeeyy. Cheap cheerful (you can buy it in fab colours) and no more broken legs n scale damage. All falconers problem solved. Top man
:lol: :lol: :lol:

1ABHawker
06-06-2007, 06:04 PM
imagine the amount of anklets you could knock out from a spool of fishing line! narners to this roo it's too expensive.

Alf
06-06-2007, 06:33 PM
Seems perfectly strait forward if you have an excessive bater use wide anklets if your hawk is calm and only bates occasionally you can use thinner. I prefer a thinner anklet but then again my spars donít bait that much. Alf.

Mac
07-06-2007, 01:14 AM
i actually spoke to my freind tonight about this, he is adamant that because of the shape of the eylelet and the way the direction of applied upward momentumn coupled with sudden and complete deacceleration a narrow anklet is better.

and whats more he recons he can prove it!

he said that due to the fact a hawks leg is not perfectly straight, nor is it a regular shape. and the fact that a aymeri braclet is neither perfectly circular nor does fit perfectly tightly then in short a wider anklet can and will not not disipitate force, the way we all think it does.

will i be using thin anklets?????

**** that!!!!!! the same lad actually fell for a "wallet inspection" on a stagnight in amsterdam!!!!!

long may we all use wider anklets!

Tim Laycock
08-06-2007, 10:44 PM
**** that!!!!!! the same lad actually fell for a "wallet inspection" on a stagnight in amsterdam!!!!!

long may we all use wider anklets!
:supz:

Orol
13-01-2008, 07:11 PM
i hold that opinion that the rolled anklets are far the BEST thing there is, of coarse if done correctly. it's true that i don't use them yet, but that's just because i don't want to make bad ones as i don't know how to make them. so i just stick to a traditional normal middle width (1.5 cm for a gos) with ruffled edges.

Jack
14-01-2008, 03:56 AM
I guess you could start using copper wire or fishing line. You might as well. I don't know why I waste my time. You know, Ignorance is a word that is most often misused. It is not a person that is unschooled, but a person that can see the facts, but chooses to ignore them. I was sort of jumping through a book by MH Woodford, and he says it was the same in his day. Nothing ever really changes. Oh, and btw, that was not a good use of physics. It had nothing to do with physics as applied here. Oh Well.

Jack

Dayo
10-09-2008, 08:32 PM
use wide anklets to prevent damage to scales etc. but use wide or narrow anklets will not make any odds on fracturing the legs.
the leg breaks when the hawk bates to the ground then bates again once the bird pivots over the top of its foot ie the three main toes are face down on the floor and the weight of the bird carries on going. so with the face down foot as the pivot and the anklet as the anchor the shape and weight of the bird snaps the upper part of the leg in an upward v direction coz it has no where else to go. so to stop it ur bird has to be prevented from getting to bate to the floor. or not teathered at all.

Ben C
11-09-2008, 12:10 PM
I use ones that are the size of a 2p on the cirlce and when folded, cut at the top and bottom and get wet a few times they sit well and are wide enough.

Sophie
11-09-2008, 12:41 PM
i use pretty wide but thin leather anklets on my musket.. im lucky enough that he very rarely bates here is a pic of what i use,
http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r81/sophieabb/DSC01557.jpg