Pitch?

[Gram]

how do you guys estimate the hight of the pitch? you see heights of 800 to 100feet and was interested to know how you know,im sure there i a lot of over exageration but im sure a lot are pretty honest when it come to an estimate.I find it hard to estimate height when it gets over 5o' and i used to be a scaffolder! have you ever used range finder or other similar equipment.

[Red-Devil]

when you fly them to the kite you sort of get a feel for it after a bit

[HawkingTX]

I have to agree with Red Devil. I fly my longwing to the kite before hunting season to get her in shape. My spool holds 1,800' of line on it and before we go out hawking, we get all that line out and her going all the way up. It takes a couple of weeks to get her worked back into shape.

Now the kite isn't 1,800' up in the air, but depending on the wind and etc. you have a pretty good idea on how high the kite is by the distance it is away from you. Sometimes I estimate 1,400' and then times 1,600' with the occasional heigth of only about 1,300'.

I have my kite line marked every 100' and 500' by different colors. This makes it very easy to gauge our progress on a day by day training season. Once off the kite though and she is in shape, she easily goes much higher than the height of her kite during our training sessions which is no exageration.

[Berkut]

I have used a rangefinder with the eagles ,although it can be difficult to get a reading as it works on a rebound from the target.
As Red Devil says if you have used a kite you can getv a good feel for heights.
If anything I try to under estimate heights as I can,t be bothered with people exaggerating the pitch. ( or the weight for that matter ).

[Jiff]

a bit off thread gram but along the same lines, i shoot pigeons with the father inlaw, but not regularly, when we're in seperate hides i will often not take a shot at birds and he will gaurentee they were mine, or at times take shots and not even scare the birds, then he would put a bee in my ear about spoiling he's lie it's difficult to estimate hight and distance in an accumalative, i would say it depends on the day, if a fisherman catches a fish but doesnt land it, well it was bigger than the one he seen, if he catches a fish, doesnt see it or land it, then it's the biggest in these waters! i would guess it's the case of appreciation! of what happened next!

[Jack]

If you put a kite up using 1800 feet of line, you can expect about 2 percent stretch over all. That might be closer to 3 percent. Anyway, The wind drags heavily on the kite line, which makes it arch to about 20 or 25 percent, depending on the stiffness of the wind. A kite never flies directly over head. It usually flys at 1 or 2 oclock. That is 1200 directly over you and 3 oclock out at ground level. At 1 oclock you are looking at possibly around 1260 feet. Most kites will be flown closer to the 1:30 mark. This will put the kite at just about 1050 feet at best.
Before you go getting all excited, get down your paper and drafting stuff and give it a go. That is what I did. When you see someone flying a kite with 1500 feet of line, or even 1000 feet of line, you can expect them to only have the kite up some 55 to 58 percent of that line. That is just over a half.
If you fly it at 2oclock, you will see possibly around 800 feet. This is by use of a compass. From the tether, or the person holding the end of the line, the kite itself might be anywhere from 600 to 1000 feet down wind of you. All this will slightly vary due to the way the kite is adjusted and the stiffness of the wind. Also, twisted line stretches about 2 percent, while braided line around 3 percent. And the heavier the line, the more arc you will have in the line due to wind drag. You can never assume anything. 1800 feet does sound quite impressive, but in reality, you are only achieving about 58 percent of that.
If it takes a falcon about 2 minutes to climb 100 feet, then it is going to take her 36 minutes or more to reach 1800 feet. With any wind at all, she will have to work for at least 45 minutes to get up there.
As for the original question, I don't think you will find an answer here. Just a big old can of worms.

Jack

[Venividevenatio]

Get used to a birds size against a known horizontal measurment.
In my case it was runway distance boards, but lamposts and telegraph poles work just as well.
The most accurate measurement on the airfield was when you saw the bird clipping the cloud---------------the weather department could give an accurate laser measurement of the cloud base!

[Gram]

I never give thought to the kite to be quite honest but i can see it being a great advantage,thanks for some interesting replies guys

[Dean]

I used to think i over estimated pitch, now i think i under estimate it! I think a lot of falconers do not realize how low 500ft actually is! I can sprint it in 22 secs! :yawinkle: :twisted:

[TiercelJim]

I used to think i over estimated pitch, now i think i under estimate it! I think a lot of falconers do not realize how low 500ft actually is! I can sprint it in 22 secs! :yawinkle: :twisted:

are you sure you didnt mean 50ft dean,lol

[MitchellBrad]

are you sure you didnt mean 50ft dean,lol

Ya ought to try a balloon. Saw one once dead overhead and guessed the bird was about 1200 turns out it was around 1,000. Guess I over estimate too.

Pitch and beauty are in the eye of the beholder. Actually when I'm hawking with the local guys no one bothers to mention anything other than "she's up good!" or "Are you really going to flush with that bird so low?" :-P there is a water tower down the road. I know exactly how high it is but when I ask visitors how high they think it is they often are off 100 feet or more.

[Dean]

Hey jim, is that flight still etched in your mind when my bird screamed through that flock from well over 4000ft!:yawinkle: :twisted:

[BestBeagler]

I am not a longwinger yet, but I don't think I am going too be to obsessed this fall about whether my bird is 300' or 500' as long as he is whistling when he is coming down :supz: . By the way how high do they have to be for me to be able hear that whistle Isaac?

[EnjoyIt]

If you put a kite up using 1800 feet of line, you can expect about 2 percent stretch over all. That might be closer to 3 percent. Anyway, The wind drags heavily on the kite line, which makes it arch to about 20 or 25 percent, depending on the stiffness of the wind. A kite never flies directly over head. It usually flys at 1 or 2 oclock. That is 1200 directly over you and 3 oclock out at ground level. At 1 oclock you are looking at possibly around 1260 feet. Most kites will be flown closer to the 1:30 mark. This will put the kite at just about 1050 feet at best.
Before you go getting all excited, get down your paper and drafting stuff and give it a go. That is what I did. When you see someone flying a kite with 1500 feet of line, or even 1000 feet of line, you can expect them to only have the kite up some 55 to 58 percent of that line. That is just over a half.
If you fly it at 2oclock, you will see possibly around 800 feet. This is by use of a compass. From the tether, or the person holding the end of the line, the kite itself might be anywhere from 600 to 1000 feet down wind of you. All this will slightly vary due to the way the kite is adjusted and the stiffness of the wind. Also, twisted line stretches about 2 percent, while braided line around 3 percent. And the heavier the line, the more arc you will have in the line due to wind drag. You can never assume anything. 1800 feet does sound quite impressive, but in reality, you are only achieving about 58 percent of that.
If it takes a falcon about 2 minutes to climb 100 feet, then it is going to take her 36 minutes or more to reach 1800 feet. With any wind at all, she will have to work for at least 45 minutes to get up there.
As for the original question, I don't think you will find an answer here. Just a big old can of worms.
Hi
Jack

Very interesting
lee

[Giant Panda]

Get used to a birds size against a known horizontal measurment.
In my case it was runway distance boards, but lamposts and telegraph poles work just as well.
The most accurate measurement on the airfield was when you saw the bird clipping the cloud---------------the weather department could give an accurate laser measurement of the cloud base!

Don't forget your bird looks slightly smaller against a bright sky,(therefore higher).
GP:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[TiercelJim]

Hey jim, is that flight still etched in your mind when my bird screamed through that flock from well over 4000ft!:yawinkle: :twisted:

was a good day dean!would love to see you run 500ft in 22secs tho.lol:lol:

[TiercelJim]

Ya ought to try a balloon. Saw one once dead overhead and guessed the bird was about 1200 turns out it was around 1,000. Guess I over estimate too.

Pitch and beauty are in the eye of the beholder. Actually when I'm hawking with the local guys no one bothers to mention anything other than "she's up good!" or "Are you really going to flush with that bird so low?" :-P there is a water tower down the road. I know exactly how high it is but when I ask visitors how high they think it is they often are off 100 feet or more.

brad i find it hard to judge hieght,better when im with my mate whos played with kites he's got a good idea.I usually say mine was this big,that small or somewere up there.

ps,picked a book up at the falconry fair,flicking through it and guess who was there...you!selecting birds for breeding good read.

[EddieT]

If it takes a falcon about 2 minutes to climb 100 feet, then it is going to take her 36 minutes or more to reach 1800 feet. With any wind at all, she will have to work for at least 45 minutes to get up there.
Jack

Err, I think that a climb rate of 100ft in 2 mins is a bit geriatric. I've never timed it, but certainly a fit falcon can achieve a climb rate that is a fraction of that. Has anyone timed their falcon to see how long it takes to make a pitch? My guess is that a climb rate is more in the region of 100ft in 30 seconds (or less), which would take 5 mins to reach a pitch of 1000ft and 9 mins to reach 1800 ft.

Climb rate will also depend upon a lot of factors including wind speed, air pressure and other weather conditions and of course the fitness and phsical capability of the falcon.

[MattSpar]

At 1 oclock you are looking at possibly around 1260 feet. Most kites will be flown closer to the 1:30 mark. This will put the kite at just about 1050 feet at best.


So from all that I gather that any bird flown around lunchtime is not as high as you'd think, right?

[FalconerDillon]

If it takes a falcon about 2 minutes to climb 100 feet, then it is going to take her 36 minutes or more to reach 1800 feet. With any wind at all, she will have to work for at least 45 minutes to get up there.
As for the original question, I don't think you will find an answer here. Just a big old can of worms.

Jack

Do you really think it takes 2 minutes for a falcon to climb 100 feet? Even in heavy, "dead" air a falcon will climb much faster than this in my opinion. Also, as the falcon gets higher it gets easier for it to climb.

Early in kite training you may see a young falcon drifting around looking for good pockets of air, and in that case they are probably climbing at that rate. However, once they know the game they power into position as quickly as possible in my experience. I think that in the sky trials falcons get 20 minutes of time maximum to reach pitch-- most of the gyr/peregrine tiercels are up to a grand in 5 minutes.

I know your position on pitch-- that most falcons don't wait on higher than 300'-- and I totally agree. I recently saw a duck hawker fly his peregrine at a pitch of maybe 200', but there are mostly dirthawkers here so everyone thought the bird was really high. Having said that, there are quite a few falconers I know of that are ballooning (which takes a lot of the angle out of the equation) their birds to 3000.'

There are quite a few good gamehawks out there flying at 800' to 1000' and are just a pulsating speck in the air to my eyes.

Regards,

Dillon

[MitchellBrad]

brad i find it hard to judge hieght,better when im with my mate whos played with kites he's got a good idea.I usually say mine was this big,that small or somewere up there.

ps,picked a book up at the falconry fair,flicking through it and guess who was there...you!selecting birds for breeding good read.

I've about given up mentioning pitch to people. Seems those who weren't there want to argue. And if someone has never seen a bird fly in the manner they would like to my canned answer is always, "I'm sorry"

I broke all my own rules this year when it came to breeding. I used a tiercel that hadn't been flown. Thinking back I'm convinced the way it worked out was pretty good. Someone else had raised him, I didn't fly him but I wanted that specific blood because I was well acquainted with his parents. He was a complete dud. The falcon was one of the best gamehawks I ever had, a copulator and a good mother. Seems bad to have wasted a season but it goes to show ya what can happen when your stupid:o I've got my eye on two other tiercels one bred by me and flown by a friend. The other I've been hearing great things about for the last couple of years. If I get the one I'm afraid I'll have to give an arm and a leg;) for it.

[TLDWB]

Just back from kite training my tiercel, so find this thread very interesting. The kite we are using hasn't got the line marked for height yet, but from our best judgment going by nearby trees, it was up the height of around 160-180ft. I found Jack's post very interesting, but I have to disagree about the climb rate of a falcon. My tiercel was up to the kite in less than 2min's, and that was the highest he's been in his life(4 years old). Mind you his lack of knowledge for gaining height is made up by the fact he is quite fit. He's been stooped to a lure all is life, but thought I would try something different with him.

Tom

[MitchellBrad]

Do you really think it takes 2 minutes for a falcon to climb 100 feet? Even in heavy, "dead" air a falcon will climb much faster than this in my opinion. Also, as the falcon gets higher it gets easier for it to climb. Dillon

I'm sure you guys have seen those birds that stick their noses into the wind and lift up. I'm talking a cool, crisp day with a 10 or 20mph wind. I mean almost straight up. That gyr I released could climb like nothing else I'd seen before. She'd power up on days she wanted to. I've seen good gyrs that leave the fist and climb out on the horizon, turn and by the time they over head they are tiny specks. Never timed it but all this happened in minutes maybe less.

[Hawkmaster]

I have had my kite up at 876 foot and that was at the time the bird took the lure as I had my GPS attatched to the slide ring.

It was so high that I could almost not see the GPS and lure!

Climb rate of that bird a tiercel Pere/Saker was around 200 foot per minute.

[Pearl]

I have had my kite up at 876 foot and that was at the time the bird took the lure as I had my GPS attatched to the slide ring.

It was so high that I could almost not see the GPS and lure!

Climb rate of that bird a tiercel Pere/Saker was around 200 foot per minute.
minus the distance from the kite to the lure lol:supz:

[HawkingTX]

When it comes to the kite line that I use, it is really light weight and strong. I use what they call rip cord. Great stuff, but not cheap. Then I use a Little Bear Kite that really goes up nice most of the time depending on wind.

I respect Jack as a person and falconer. I don't know you Jack as well I would like and maybe one day we can go out hawking together. Jack has a wealth of experience and knows way more than I can probably ever get to learn in my falconry career. However saying this if you have any questions concerning my falcon going up and time it takes for her to go up 1,500' plus, there are many falconers here in this state that has seen her fly and they will tell you that your theory of time is incorrect.

Some of these guys live fairly close to you like Jay, Danny, and Bryan. At the recent Sky Trails, she was up and down within the fifteen minute time allowed and still was estimated by the judges and other longwingers there to be a minimum of 1,500'. I guess this may seem arguementive to you Jack and please do not take it this way because I truly do not mean it to be this way, but I just disagree on a few issues.

Keep in mind that everyone has their opinion and I DO respect you opinion. It is dialog like this that makes this forum worth it's time in reading and responding. I really would like to take you out duckhawking sometime this coming season to just to fly birds and talk about theories. I am always trying to learn more and more from anyone that is very well respected.

[Matthew Patching]

Tell you a little story.

A couple of seasons ago, I put a 61/2 lb eagle up in a chalk quarry, he hit a thermal (in late october) and went up. He pitched out at about (my guesse) 550-600 foot, and used the wind to gain a bit more, proly finaly topping out at approx 700 foot.

I had 12 people with me, all experienced falconers who flew a mixed bag of hawks, from gosses to big hybred falcons, and not one of them said he was under 1000 foot, the highest guess was around 1800 foot.

When I said that they were all wrong, and that he hadnt even hit a 1000 foot (yet) I was shouted down, and called a liar.

I (personaly) think that I am a good judge of hieght, and with or without a kite (or ballon) I think that I could judge roughly the hieght of any bird that I see fly.

Here is my equation. Guesse the hieght, take of 500' just for the hell of it, then guess again, and take off a further 300' and you will be somwhere close.

I had a guy come out with me who told me his tercel pere topped out at about 1000', all I had to say was " How the hell are you catching partridge when they only have 100 yards between hedges", turns out that his bird only topped out at about 250-275 foot.

Falconers are the worst at guessing what hieght (there) bird is at!:yawinkle:

[Jack]

Hi John. Most of my longwinging is done with Ron Ramsey. He flew 2 female peregrines up until just before the end of the duck season, when a coyote took his younger female. These are high flying, duck killing birds. I have Jay's gyr/prairie tiercel at this time. Now, he is a super high flyer when he is into it. My old Saker was also a high flyer. I don't really like that, because it is not consistant with taking lots of ducks, which is about all that we have for large falcons here. Most people think that because I always judge pitch to be much lower than most people that I fly my birds just off the weeds. Not so. When Chase, the little hybrid tiercel, is flying high sometimes I can not see him. I have to use my scanner to find him up there. But most times I can see him. I have been a kiter for many years. Playing with them and all. So I have gone through all kinds of pains trying to work out how high they were on most days. Falcons are also effected by barometric pressures. Hi pressures can see them sky out. Low pressures are so hard to climb on that they might not even try. On a blue bird day, they can sky up easy. I have to admit that I have no idea how fast a climb rate Chase has, or any falcon. I would suspect that to be varied from bird to bird. One might just be tooling around, while the other might be fairly inspired to get on up there.
One day we were out flying and Danny was with us. I was flying my old peregrine and she was acting silly. She only sent up about 300 feet by my best judgement. I asked Danny how high he thought her to be. He likes to use the telephone pole as a measuring tool. It is not as accurate as you might think though. As they get higher, they look shorter. Anyway, when I asked him, he looked at me and said, well, a telephone pole is about 100 feet tall, right? I think I might have changed the subject or something after that. His female prairie falcon would go up to about 500 feet and she looked way the heck up there to me. She might have been closer to 600 feet, but I don't think so.
I have a habit of asking everyone that comes to my place just how far it is to the end of the road. The properties are marked with steel pins. I get anywhere from 1000 to 2000 feet. The long wingers are no different from the others. I even ask non falconers too. It is actually only 700 feet exactly. Now, if I could stand that road up on end, the far end would be way the heck up there.

Jack

[GregMik]

If you put a kite up using 1800 feet of line, you can expect about 2 percent stretch over all. That might be closer to 3 percent.

Where are you getting these numbers from? Dacron stretches 10% from the manufactures specs and Spectra stretches about 4%. Spectra is pound for pound stronger than steel.

Anyway, The wind drags heavily on the kite line, which makes it arch to about 20 or 25 percent, depending on the stiffness of the wind. A kite never flies directly over head.

Do you have the numbers for this? Like drag to velocity ratios? I would estimate them at about a 10% loss via the curve. Have you looked at the geometry it takes to got a line to have a curve that depletes the length by 25%? It would be dragging on the ground all the time.

It usually flys at 1 or 2 oclock. That is 1200 directly over you and 3 oclock out at ground level. At 1 oclock you are looking at possibly around 1260 feet. Most kites will be flown closer to the 1:30 mark. This will put the kite at just about 1050 feet at best.
Before you go getting all excited, get down your paper and drafting stuff and give it a go. That is what I did. When you see someone flying a kite with 1500 feet of line, or even 1000 feet of line, you can expect them to only have the kite up some 55 to 58 percent of that line. That is just over a half.
If you fly it at 2oclock, you will see possibly around 800 feet. This is by use of a compass. From the tether, or the person holding the end of the line, the kite itself might be anywhere from 600 to 1000 feet down wind of you. All this will slightly vary due to the way the kite is adjusted and the stiffness of the wind. Also, twisted line stretches about 2 percent, while braided line around 3 percent. And the heavier the line, the more arc you will have in the line due to wind drag. You can never assume anything. 1800 feet does sound quite impressive, but in reality, you are only achieving about 58 percent of that.

If you have 1800ft of line out with the numbers I am using you would be up at 1558ft at 1 o'clock. Now if you have a kite that flyes at 1 o'clock which is at a 30 degree drop, you should get a new kite as you are working too hard. Look at the angle rated on the kite at the wind speeds you will be flying at. It is all spelled out on the good kites you buy. You get what you pay for.


If it takes a falcon about 2 minutes to climb 100 feet, then it is going to take her 36 minutes or more to reach 1800 feet. With any wind at all, she will have to work for at least 45 minutes to get up there.
As for the original question, I don't think you will find an answer here. Just a big old can of worms.

Jack

I have no doubt it takes your birds that long to mount that high with your weight control regimen.

Jack you are way out in left Field with this. You don't have the numbers or the mathimatical knowledge to argue this.

Greg

[Onyx25]

Alot of people UNDER estimate the hieght of their falcons. I have flown falcons near nuclear power stations and airfields, the power station is over 350 ft and that is really very low for a falcon and certainly not killing hieght. When flying on airports I have clearly watched falcons go through the clouds upon checking with atc this can be between 2000 and 3500 ft but is too high for proper falconry. Another example is some of the eagles I have flown that would dissapear from sight regularily straight over us. Bearing in mind you can clearly see a falcon at 2000 ft I would love to know hiw high a 10lb bald eagle is to speck out? BTW an eagle stoooping like a falcon from 1000s of feet above you for a chick head is something else!

[Jack]

Greg, these are from my own personal tests on the line I spoke of. I have been a kiter for as long as I have been able to walk. I play with them. Next time you have your kite up, tie it off and walk off until you are directly under it. Measure that distance. You will be surprised at just how much arc there is in your line. You can not depend upon the manufacturers specs 100%. Take some tests of your own. Using known distances, see just how much stretch you can get from 100 feet of line.
It isn't 100% accurate. None of what we do is. You have to do the math yourself to see. You can not just reject it because of who is presenting it. And besides, I have not met the person that can adjust a kite harness like I can. I can get the most verticle flight possible, and in most cases, no matter the wind speed, I can just lay the end of the line down without tying it off. Can you do that? The kite flys in a way that it pulls forward even though the line has considerable wind drag on it. No, there is not a whole lot that you can tell me about flying kites.
The only way you can depend on something like that achieving full distance is maybe a big balloon on a perfectly calm day. And why are you changing the subject? There is nothing wrong with my weight management methods. You end up using the same methods. It just takes you a lot longer to work it out though.

Jack

[TLDWB]

Greg, these are from my own personal tests on the line I spoke of. I have been a kiter for as long as I have been able to walk. I play with them. Next time you have your kite up, tie it off and walk off until you are directly under it. Measure that distance. You will be surprised at just how much arc there is in your line. You can not depend upon the manufacturers specs 100%. Take some tests of your own. Using known distances, see just how much stretch you can get from 100 feet of line.
It isn't 100% accurate. None of what we do is. You have to do the math yourself to see. You can not just reject it because of who is presenting it. And besides, I have not met the person that can adjust a kite harness like I can. I can get the most verticle flight possible, and in most cases, no matter the wind speed, I can just lay the end of the line down without tying it off. Can you do that? The kite flys in a way that it pulls forward even though the line has considerable wind drag on it. No, there is not a whole lot that you can tell me about flying kites.
The only way you can depend on something like that achieving full distance is maybe a big balloon on a perfectly calm day. And why are you changing the subject? There is nothing wrong with my weight management methods. You end up using the same methods. It just takes you a lot longer to work it out though.

Jack

I can just lay the end of the line down without tying it off.

Sorry jack, can you explain this to me. Played around with a kite some years a go, just got back into it so finding this thread interesting.

Tom

[GregMik]

Greg, these are from my own personal tests on the line I spoke of. I have been a kiter for as long as I have been able to walk. I play with them. Next time you have your kite up, tie it off and walk off until you are directly under it. Measure that distance. You will be surprised at just how much arc there is in your line. You can not depend upon the manufacturers specs 100%. Take some tests of your own. Using known distances, see just how much stretch you can get from 100 feet of line.
It isn't 100% accurate. None of what we do is. You have to do the math yourself to see. You can not just reject it because of who is presenting it. And besides, I have not met the person that can adjust a kite harness like I can. I can get the most verticle flight possible, and in most cases, no matter the wind speed, I can just lay the end of the line down without tying it off. Can you do that? The kite flys in a way that it pulls forward even though the line has considerable wind drag on it. No, there is not a whole lot that you can tell me about flying kites.
The only way you can depend on something like that achieving full distance is maybe a big balloon on a perfectly calm day. And why are you changing the subject? There is nothing wrong with my weight management methods. You end up using the same methods. It just takes you a lot longer to work it out though.

Jack

Jack,

If you are able to just lay the kite line down on the ground, you are using too heavy of a line for the kite you have. This may explain why you don't get the stretch and then you also have the curve in the line.

The freinds that I help out use three different spools for different wind conditions. They also have a few kites.

Sorry Jack but I will never use your weight control method.

Greg

[Jack]

In this area I can pretty much depend on a constant sustained wind on most days. I have a particular hill that I use for kiting just because of the great updraft. When you fly a kite, you want the harness to be tied off at about 1/3 from the lead tie. You can work it forward and backwards from there to get the optimum of lift with a surfing effect from your kite. The wind holds it up, it glides on the wind. The line might be break tested at near 100 pounds, but you will have only a few pounds of actual drag. The weight of the line itself is enough to hold it in place on the wind without follow with it. Most kites will be flown with the harness well out of adjustment and will have a pull so hard that it would cut your hands if you tried to hold it bare handed. The line even breaks sometimes, and the kite will follow down wind and at times might just disappear. If you have it all perfect you can just drop the end of the line to the ground and it will just ride there. You don't even have to tie it off. You have to have a very stable kite in order to make this perfect adjustment. If it wavers even the slightest it will bank off and dive down wind on you. I have flown a kite with 5000 feet of line on it. I even have one that is no more than 8 inches long and 6 inches wide that will take a pitch of 300 feet. Beyond that, the line will just fall onto the ground and the kite will not go higher. I suppose that with lighter line it might go higher. But 4 pound test is all I can find.
BTW. When stretch testing line the manufacturers actually stretch it until it breaks. That is the stretch factor. They might get a full 10% of stretch from some lines, but you will never do this. You will do well to get enough stress on the line to get 2 to 3% of stretch at most. Braided line is always the strongest, but it is also the stretchiest. But only by a small margin. And one of the hardest things to understand is that a thin little string can hold as much wind drag as the kite itself. And the more line that you have out, the more wind drag you acrue.
To get the amount of arc you have, you can use a piece of drafting paper that is gridded. Count each square as 100 feet. For 1800 feet you will have to have 18 squares. Let out all your kite string at 1800 feet. Now, using your compass you draw a quarter circle from directly above ground zero, out to 18 squares at 90 degrees. Ground level. At 30 degrees, which would be about 1 oclock, count the squares. Again at 45 degrees and again at 60 degrees. Now, while your kite is up with the full 1800 feet of line out, walk out directly under the kite. Get as directly under it as you can. Mark that spot and then measure as accurately as you can from that point to where the line ends. At ground Zero. Take that distance and compare it to the amount of line you have out. That will give you the difference. You can even get the exact percentage of arc in your line at that wind speed.
It is simple math. It does not require any special formulas or special math to come up with this. Just simple math and knowing how to use it.
Also, by measuring the distance out from the tie off to directly under the kite, you can easily chart the pitch of the kite. To get the exact degree of angle, you can use a level and a trisquare. I have one that I just use a ruler to point directly at the kite and it gives me the degree of angle. Where that line crosses the arc of the compass will give you your exact pitch.
This thread is turning into something very boring.

Jack

[Gaz]

"If anything I try to under estimate heights as I can,t be bothered with people exaggerating the pitch. ( or the weight for that matter )."QUOTE:

Neil,are you trying to say this actually happens:?: ..i am shocked:o
Surely not in these modern times..'cos they would only be fooling themselves...:yawinkle: :mrgreen:

[TLDWB]

Jack good post, would it be possible for a picture of your kite set up.

Tom

[Eagle Dares]

i try never to (g)estimate heights because they are usually wrong, somethin akin to a fisherman's tales about the size of the fish he caught i would guess!
what i would be interested in is how high can the human eye focus on an object, say for example, the size of a 2 lb 6 male Ferruginous in a perfecly clear sky? because after that i don't know how high he is! :supz:

ps. while it's a brilliant spectacle its of no great use other than for ruining the timing of all the afternoons events!:oops:

[Jack]

Tom, you would be surprised at what I use to kite a falcon. It is nothing more then a 6 foot Delta, and I do not use the kite in my act. The kite is something that I tie the upper end of my line to. The falcon can see it, but is not aware that it is part of the show. I do not use releases and such, but merily tie a 6 foot length of line to the main line so that I can slide it up or down the line, and on the end of that line I will tie a half a toothpick for sticking on tidbits.
If you use a lure, the falcon will not break off and chase or stoop at anything. It will continue until it takes the lure and rides it down. This is not productive in my way of doing it. I use tidbits. A falcon, if hungry, will mount hundreds of feet for a tiny tidbit. Once it eats the tidbit it will go back and chech for another one. This puts the falcon right back where it should be if you intend to induce a vertical stoop. I will then introduce the incentive, whatever it is, and once I have done this a few times, I leave the kite in the truck. The falcon will then mount in expectation of a flush or whatever is used as incentive. I like to fortify this with a pigeon shot from a launcher a couple of times and then take the bird hunting. We hunt ducks here with falcons. I have trained 3 falcons to wait on steadily now by use of my kite and in no more than a week in the doing. You can not stall out on any part of this training or you will develop dependency in the falcon.

And Greg. You say that, but you do use the exact same methods I use, except that you take so long getting there. I just get to the point and get it done. You are so afraid of killing the bird you can not proceed in a timely manner. I probably feed my birds more than you feed yours during any hunting season. I only get tight with them when I am breaking them in and manning them in the beginning. Instead of fighting and fighting against a fat hawk for 2 months I just drop the weight until I get the response I want and get it done. I don't just continue along in hopes that the hawk will decide to do what I want it to. I place it into a situation to where it has to do what I want it to do.

Anyway, Tom, I will try to take some pictures if I can get my digital camera working again. I need to spend some pesos and get me a good one.

Jack

[GregMik]

Tom, you would be surprised at what I use to kite a falcon. It is nothing more then a 6 foot Delta, and I do not use the kite in my act. The kite is something that I tie the upper end of my line to. The falcon can see it, but is not aware that it is part of the show. I do not use releases and such, but merily tie a 6 foot length of line to the main line so that I can slide it up or down the line, and on the end of that line I will tie a half a toothpick for sticking on tidbits.
If you use a lure, the falcon will not break off and chase or stoop at anything. It will continue until it takes the lure and rides it down. This is not productive in my way of doing it. I use tidbits. A falcon, if hungry, will mount hundreds of feet for a tiny tidbit. Once it eats the tidbit it will go back and chech for another one. This puts the falcon right back where it should be if you intend to induce a vertical stoop. I will then introduce the incentive, whatever it is, and once I have done this a few times, I leave the kite in the truck. The falcon will then mount in expectation of a flush or whatever is used as incentive. I like to fortify this with a pigeon shot from a launcher a couple of times and then take the bird hunting. We hunt ducks here with falcons. I have trained 3 falcons to wait on steadily now by use of my kite and in no more than a week in the doing. You can not stall out on any part of this training or you will develop dependency in the falcon.

Jack, if your way works for you that is fine. It is a way of doing things but it is not the best way of doing it.

You don't need to get a protractor and paper out to figure pitch either. All it takes is two sides of a right triangle. Which is what you get when you measure on the ground and then use the string length. You are wrong in your assumptions on the curve and the stretch length of the string. Yet you will not admit it.

And Greg. You say that, but you do use the exact same methods I use, except that you take so long getting there. I just get to the point and get it done. You are so afraid of killing the bird you can not proceed in a timely manner. I probably feed my birds more than you feed yours during any hunting season. I only get tight with them when I am breaking them in and manning them in the beginning. Instead of fighting and fighting against a fat hawk for 2 months I just drop the weight until I get the response I want and get it done. I don't just continue along in hopes that the hawk will decide to do what I want it to. I place it into a situation to where it has to do what I want it to do.

You don't have a clue on how I fly my birds. So don't be saying what I do and don't do. I will never follow your weight control methods Jack. This is getting really old, you telling me I am but I just don't know it. Sometimes you will not leave a dead horse lay.
Greg

[HawkingTX]

Jack,
I would be also interested in seeing this set-up of yours a little better if you have the chance to post some pictures. The system I have been using has worked well, but always looking for different ways and ideas to maybe improve my way of doing things sir.

[Bird_Dog]

Why argue over kite string. Isn't there a cheap altimeter that can be place on the kite? Since every one is so interested in birds flying to the kite, why don't we have a new competition at the sky trial. Meaure the time to reach the bait and designate the fastest climber. The only problem is that the way the wind blows in Hillsboro no kite string is strong enough (inside joke). Both Texas Sky Trials to date the wind must of been blowing 40 mphs at least.

-- BIRD_DOG

[HawkingTX]

Hey Scott,

You are right about the last two sky trails in Hillsboro. The winds have been blowing hard during these events. Last year the wind was 43 mph and this year not quite as bad, just 38 mph.

I have been wanting to find something very small altimeter wise to put on Nadia to see what she does when she just disappears out of sight height wise. It is just for my curiousity, but I would love to know what she does when she is gone for a while like at the sky trails this year.

[Jack]

Greg, I never would have brought it up. It was you that did that. Go back and read your posts. Anyway, I would be interested if you could actually explain my weight control methods.

An altimeter, if accurate would be the way to go. You have to remember to extract the distance above sea level at the spot where you are standing. If I were to have one on my little tiercel and he was registering 1200 feet, I would have to extract 470 feet from that. They give you the distance above sea level. They measure atmospheric pressure.

As for the kite, most people will actually put more stress on the line than is necessary. Take a piece of 50 pound dacron. 10% stretch by manufacturers tests. That is with a full pull of 50 pounds. The stretch is measured at breaking point. If you have a kite properly adjusted for flight you will not put that much stress against a line. In fact, you will do good to get a full 3% of stretch out of it.
I guess at the end of the day it don't really matter how high a pitch a falcon takes if the owner is happy with it. If he thinks it is 2000 feet, oh well. He wants it to be 2000 feet and logic is not going to tell him any different.

Greg, the method you gave is not accurate. Not even close. The things I do are the only way to take into consideration all the different variables that exist. It is the most accurate way of doing it. You can be accurate to within a couple of yards most of the time. You don't have to even know how much stretch you have, or how much arc you have, You can get all that from the figures I gave. I know it is a lot of stuff to be doing, but if you want to be close to accurate you have to do it. Just sighting along a couple of tools will not give you that information accurately.
I'm serious Greg. It seems that anything that is signed Jack has to be rejected no matter how sound the logic. I don't think right or wrong ever enters into it. I don't know why you think you have to talk down to me all the time. When you were an apprentice you asked me for advice, admit it or not. And once you made General class falconer suddenly you know enough to tell me that nearly 50 years experience of trial and error is wrong. I could teach you things that you never knew existed, but you would not last a day as an apprentice of mine. Not a day.

[GregMik]

I could teach you things that you never knew existed, but you would not last a day as an apprentice of mine. Not a day.

Thats the problem Jack....Nobody would...You are just too good for us all....

Greg

[Hawkmaster]

Keep to the thread please!