Re-imprinting???????

[BHawk]

just a random question out of interest, how many people on here have re-imprinted a falcon back to its own species (from humans) after several years, or to other species and how effective is it with broadwings\shortwings????
is it possible to re-imprint a gyr from humans to a peregrine for example?
its been done since the late 70's so im wondering how many on here have done it and any personal techniques you've learnt???

[Tim Laycock]

Never heard of anything like this except in sparrowhawks and even then its not really re-imprinting.

[BHawk]

it was first mentioned by andrew greenwood in 1980 'raptor diseases', he discusses other psychological problems of birds including adult regression to infantile behaviour, it looks into some theories and i found the whole book highly interesting even now. it spoke of the re-imprinting saying it had already been used by a couple of people and i wondered why i hadnt heard of anyone using it? it seems this is a forgotten process.
a lot of what he talks about is still highly relevant today (although i do think he is rather arrogant when you speak to him in real life!) there are many useul nuggets in the book, such as when you starve a bird for every 1 gram of fat burnt off 4 grams of lean muscle is burnt off too----this caught me by surprise, i never realise the amount of muscle wasting away!
got lots of information about goshawks in it too tim:D

[BHawk]

Never heard of anything like this except in sparrowhawks and even then its not really re-imprinting.

i also thought of sparrowhawks as they do tend to change psychologically very easily but we're talking about making a falcon think its a falcon again:supz:

[Jack]

The problem with all this is that hawks and falcons do not consider whether they are a people or you are a hawk. They have no concept of this matter. They just know you are you and they are themselves. Trying to make this determination never enters into their minds. I feel that millions of years of hard wiring will kick in when the time is just right. Hawks are solitary creatures, and unless they are out flying around when the hormones strike they just fall in love with you or whatever is present in their narrow focus of life. I have had passage female hawks start courting me, as well as a few passage males. I had a female goshawk that was taken well beyond the age where they were supposed to not imprint, but she and I built a nest and she laid eggs in it. I have a theory, and that theory says that hawks and falcons do not really imprint like people think. They just grow up having no fear of the person that raises them. This is not always extended to other people however, as they can easily tell people apart. I think they tend to court what or who ever is close to them when the hormones strike.

Jack

[OutHawkn]

The problem with all this is that hawks and falcons do not consider whether they are a people or you are a hawk. They have no concept of this matter. They just know you are you and they are themselves. Trying to make this determination never enters into their minds. I feel that millions of years of hard wiring will kick in when the time is just right. Hawks are solitary creatures, and unless they are out flying around when the hormones strike they just fall in love with you or whatever is present in their narrow focus of life. I have had passage female hawks start courting me, as well as a few passage males. I had a female goshawk that was taken well beyond the age where they were supposed to not imprint, but she and I built a nest and she laid eggs in it. I have a theory, and that theory says that hawks and falcons do not really imprint like people think. They just grow up having no fear of the person that raises them. This is not always extended to other people however, as they can easily tell people apart. I think they tend to court what or who ever is close to them when the hormones strike.

Jack


Would you PLEASE tell your theory to these knot-heads outside. They just dont seem to think the way you do.

[Tim Laycock]

Would you PLEASE tell your theory to these knot-heads outside. They just dont seem to think the way you do.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

[BHawk]

The problem with all this is that hawks and falcons do not consider whether they are a people or you are a hawk. They have no concept of this matter. They just know you are you and they are themselves. Trying to make this determination never enters into their minds. I feel that millions of years of hard wiring will kick in when the time is just right. Hawks are solitary creatures, and unless they are out flying around when the hormones strike they just fall in love with you or whatever is present in their narrow focus of life. I have had passage female hawks start courting me, as well as a few passage males. I had a female goshawk that was taken well beyond the age where they were supposed to not imprint, but she and I built a nest and she laid eggs in it. I have a theory, and that theory says that hawks and falcons do not really imprint like people think. They just grow up having no fear of the person that raises them. This is not always extended to other people however, as they can easily tell people apart. I think they tend to court what or who ever is close to them when the hormones strike.

Jack

i disagree, there is no logic in that, firstly why when you put a chick raised by white gyrs into a black gyrs nest does it get aggressive to the foster parents. there are many experiments in which you can accurately predict a behavior, of course a bird does not contemplate what species it is, but they go through a sensitive period while young in which they recognize visual characteristics of their parents, these characteristics are one day going to be what the bird seeks in a mate, after all the parents genes were successful so far so looking for a bird with similar genes will give the best probability of passing the genes on further. as for breeding with anything its not often i see sparrowhawks breeding with blackbirds or my dog!
also if a chicken chick is hatched under a falcon the falcon will attempt to feed it, brood it etc, yet if the chick leaves the nest the falcon will then kill it straight away and eat it, this shows yet again behavioral 'triggers'
evolution is what made these triggers and theyre their because they work, peregrines breed with peregrines (not elephants) whales breed with whales etc
imprinting has had a LOT of research done into it for the last thirty years, if it wasnt true i think we'd have noticed!

[BlueBoy]

just a random question out of interest, how many people on here have re-imprinted a falcon back to its own species (from humans) after several years, or to other species and how effective is it with broadwings\shortwings????
is it possible to re-imprint a gyr from humans to a peregrine for example?
its been done since the late 70's so im wondering how many on here have done it and any personal techniques you've learnt???

i have a f common buzzard whos imprinted on me, for the last 3 years weve built a nest and shes laid 3 eggs, only i can go in her aviary, she lets me sit by her etc with no problems, but she wont allow another bird in with her. the advice ive been given is to get fertile eggs under her so she can hatch them off and rear, hopefully 1 will be a male. with a bit of luck she should fancy the bird not me:lol: There is a passage in the book "the modern falconer" by Diana Durman-Walters about reverse imprinting

[Jack]

For what it worth, falcons and hawks think in pictures. And they have absolutely no idea as to what they are. They don't know what you are either. They don't even think about it. And for what it is worth again, young birds are always aggressive toward their parents. They do not know that they are their parents. Whats more, they don't care one way or the other. They have no concept of these things. They also have no concept of giving. Only taking. When you hand food to a young hawk it will snatch it from your hand if it is hungry. Reason being that they do not know that you are giving it to them. They only think that you have it and they are taking it. You give them too much credit.
You know, there are several species of parasitic birds that lay their eggs in the nests of other birds. The other birds will raise them, but they will then breed with their own kind. This tells me that birds are truly hard wired to do what they are supposed to. Mal imprinting or no.
If you think your birds are thinking you are mother or father, just fatten them up and let them out. See just how much they think of mom and dad.

Jack

[OutHawkn]

For what it worth, falcons and hawks think in pictures. And they have absolutely no idea as to what they are. They don't know what you are either. They don't even think about it. And for what it is worth again, young birds are always aggressive toward their parents. They do not know that they are their parents. Whats more, they don't care one way or the other. They have no concept of these things. They also have no concept of giving. Only taking. When you hand food to a young hawk it will snatch it from your hand if it is hungry. Reason being that they do not know that you are giving it to them. They only think that you have it and they are taking it. You give them too much credit.
You know, there are several species of parasitic birds that lay their eggs in the nests of other birds. The other birds will raise them, but they will then breed with their own kind. This tells me that birds are truly hard wired to do what they are supposed to. Mal imprinting or no.
If you think your birds are thinking you are mother or father, just fatten them up and let them out. See just how much they think of mom and dad.

Jack


Yes some species do lay in other nests. Some parrots can be raised by humans and still breed with their own kind. But you could make a milliion bucks if you could prove(by breeding) that your theory is correct. Cause my birds at least just dont think the way you do. Althougth I sure wish they did.

[BHawk]

For what it worth, falcons and hawks think in pictures. And they have absolutely no idea as to what they are. They don't know what you are either. They don't even think about it. And for what it is worth again, young birds are always aggressive toward their parents. They do not know that they are their parents. Whats more, they don't care one way or the other. They have no concept of these things. They also have no concept of giving. Only taking. When you hand food to a young hawk it will snatch it from your hand if it is hungry. Reason being that they do not know that you are giving it to them. They only think that you have it and they are taking it. You give them too much credit.
You know, there are several species of parasitic birds that lay their eggs in the nests of other birds. The other birds will raise them, but they will then breed with their own kind. This tells me that birds are truly hard wired to do what they are supposed to. Mal imprinting or no.
If you think your birds are thinking you are mother or father, just fatten them up and let them out. See just how much they think of mom and dad.

Jack

jack, i am basing my arguments on research that has been done, you dont seem to be?
i give a bird as much credit as a bird deserves, how do you come to the conclusion birds think in visual images? they are a LOT more complex than you think and see the world in a totally different way, just because they do not think in a language (as far as we are aware) they seem to perform tasks that are not based on a visual thought exercise. as for how they think they may be merely animated objects run by instinct. so far evidence shows that some birds to think in a very complex way an can do complicated tasks requiring analysis!!! ravens are a prime example, they even have accents in what can only be called their 'language, i do not believe in treating animals like people yet if the evidence says they are complex and intelligent to analyze something i will treat that animal as it deserves.
falcons and hawks do know what they are (in reference to what their parents were) just because they do not question what they are and contemplate the answers does not mean that they think they are nothing but existing. they run on instinctual triggers that have evolved to make the species survive,
its these triggers that we try to re-use to make a bir re-imprint itself on a different species. and for a birds conciousness it gets really complex because there is the possibility they can all speak a language and all have the capability just that they have not learnt to for some reasons, if you look at humans that have been raise by other animals such as a child that was raised by springbok deer, he had the same capabilities as other humans yet he did not contemplate his difference from the rest of the herd, also he could 'talk' to the other deer, by a non vocal very subtle boy language, he did not associate himself with humans and acted very much like a deer, he did eventually pick up human language after being captured and he revealed a vastly different mindset one which was simple yet complex. animals may be in the same boat as that kid, capabilities are there (as we learned with koko the gorilla, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koko_(gorilla))
there are far too many branches of science for this argument to continue with and also this thread is not to debate the capabilities of a bird to grasp thought, it is asking whether anyone has one re-imprinting and for their experiences and any other information on the subject

[Jack]

I have to admit I don't know dooky about gorillas. But then I am not talking about anything other than hawks and falcons. I choose not to continue the agruement as I don't feel that it will change anything. I have always been very successful in every aspect of my falconry. And over a very long time. I have handled a very large number of birds, and seen just about everything that they are capable of doing. So I can not be swayed from my way of thinking either, as I have been so successful in every aspect of my falconry because of it.

Jack

[FredrickFogg]

I have to admit I don't know dooky about gorillas. But then I am not talking about anything other than hawks and falcons. I choose not to continue the agruement as I don't feel that it will change anything. I have always been very successful in every aspect of my falconry. And over a very long time. I have handled a very large number of birds, and seen just about everything that they are capable of doing. So I can not be swayed from my way of thinking either, as I have been so successful in every aspect of my falconry because of it.

Jack

Damn Jack, be careful, all that patting on your back and you might break a rib or something! LOL :lol: :lol:

Fred

[OutHawkn]

Damn Jack, be careful, all that patting on your back and you might break a rib or something! LOL :lol: :lol:

Fred

PMSL!:lol:

[Steve Rose]

just to throw a wobbly in here:rolleyes: how come you can put a pair of non imprint peregrines in for breeding try for a few seasons and they don't gell but split them up and put them with other partners and they usually breed:rolleyes:
just a thought pick the bones out of that
steve

[Berkut]

A friend of mine imported a Peales tiercel from Canada a number of years ago.It was 2 or 3 years old at the time and had been imprinted from day 1. From the moment he got it,it never behaved in any way like an imprint. He put it in with a Scottish female peregrine and they have bred naturally ever since.

[StoopDoggyDogg]

I agree with the fact that a bird tries to mate with whatever is around when the hormones strike.

My male pere x saker was chamber raised by a goshawk, he is 4 years old, this year he was chupping and food passing to me in an open fronted pen, he even made a scrape and was calling me to the nest ledge.

I needed some space for a new bird so i put my pere x saker in a pen with a male parent reared 2006 pere x barbary. My pere x saker immediately starting displaying to the pxb and chased it around the pen trying to pass it food, he then hassled it for copulation. They were only together an hour before i had to split them up as the pxb was extremely stressed.

Steve

They are probably like us: " when your dick is hard - your brain is soft "





The problem with all this is that hawks and falcons do not consider whether they are a people or you are a hawk. They have no concept of this matter. They just know you are you and they are themselves. Trying to make this determination never enters into their minds. I feel that millions of years of hard wiring will kick in when the time is just right. Hawks are solitary creatures, and unless they are out flying around when the hormones strike they just fall in love with you or whatever is present in their narrow focus of life. I have had passage female hawks start courting me, as well as a few passage males. I had a female goshawk that was taken well beyond the age where they were supposed to not imprint, but she and I built a nest and she laid eggs in it. I have a theory, and that theory says that hawks and falcons do not really imprint like people think. They just grow up having no fear of the person that raises them. This is not always extended to other people however, as they can easily tell people apart. I think they tend to court what or who ever is close to them when the hormones strike.

Jack

[StoopDoggyDogg]

Thats an American imprint for you! it seems there imprints are parent reared in seclusion until 14 to 17 days before being taken up to be imprinted!!! refer to the "Imprints for newbies thread by canada man"

Cheers steve


A friend of mine imported a Peales tiercel from Canada a number of years ago.It was 2 or 3 years old at the time and had been imprinted from day 1. From the moment he got it,it never behaved in any way like an imprint. He put it in with a Scottish female peregrine and they have bred naturally ever since.