Golden Eagles in the Scottish Borders has been killed by Poison

[Alan G]

One of the only breeding pair of golden eagles in the Scottish Borders has been killed by poison.

The bird was found on Sunday and tests have confirmed that the banned substance carbofuran was involved.

The Scottish RSPB has offered a reward of £1,000 to anyone who can help provide information about the case.


Full Article

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/south_of_scotland/6944017.stm


I hope they cut the B**ls of who ever is responsible! :evil:


It was confirmed on the Scottish News, that it was a laced Grouse that was used.

[PenelopeP]

I hope they cut the B*lls of who ever is responsible! :evil:[/QUOTE]

Yeah and fill them with carbofuran and feed them to the ******** :twisted:

[Berkut]

I heard about it earlier today.They have bred there for 10 years or more. I know the keepers where they nest are very protective of them. I don't know what the prospects of another adult replacing the dead one.

An absolute travesty.

[Dougie Mc]

Its a sad day when birds like this get killed but its not one of the only breeding golden eagles in the area there are a few pairs around

[Tiny]

Hope they find the ******** responsible and shoot them

just out of curosity, what are the laws regarding prosecution on this ??

Niall

[Chicquera]

It's a pity the falconry community cant also put together a reward for information !!!

[MarkieBoi]

what a bunch of *****

[FlameHairedFalconer]

I recognise that emotions are running high here, but please try and keep the swearing to a minimum. This is a public forum and children can access this section.

[Berkut]

It's a pity the falconry community cant also put together a reward for information !!!

Good idea.

[Rossi_Hawker]

There sure is some sick phsycos out there i hope they get whats due them.:gib:


Drew

[Sirius]

It's a pity the falconry community cant also put together a reward for information !!!

Good idea.
That's a good shout! If the Hawk Board or BFC were to match the £1000 put up by the RSPB it would at least demonstrate that we're all on the same hymn sheet when it comes to things like this.

Cheers, Adi

[Chicquera]

That's a good shout! If the Hawk Board or BFC were to match the £1000 put up by the RSPB it would at least demonstrate that we're all on the same hymn sheet when it comes to things like this.

Cheers, Adi

Just not sure how we could organise it, any idea ?

[KiteTrainer]

If you could get the money together you could contact the WLO who will be in touch with the other agencies

[Chicquera]

If you could get the money together you could contact the WLO who will be in touch with the other agencies

How much support for this is on the forum as it would be good to put the reward forward from the "IFF" ?

[Hawkmaster]

As the IFF I am sure we could double what the RSPCA are offering! Right where is that TV reporter!:cool:

[Turumti]

Castrate the swine/s with a rusty hacksaw, then skin them alive and then drop them in the sea.

Such sods need the kind of treatment that would make even Genghis Khan shiver.

[Hawkmaster]

OK guys I have had 3 Pms now offering money to put up as a reward and one as high as £100:wink: Thank you!

If you are interested in pleadging an amount towards this cause let me know and we will take it further!

Paul:D

[Gerry4292]

It's sickening what some people will do,Hawkmaster you have a pm re the reward.

[Alan G]

OK guys I have had 3 Pms now offering money to put up as a reward and one as high as £100:wink: Thank you!

If you are interested in pleadging an amount towards this cause let me know and we will take it further!

Paul:D

Paul, even if people put up a fiver or a tenner a time, surely this would mount to a substantial amount?

You can count me in, so what way do we take this forward?

ATB

[Chicquera]

Paul, even if people put up a fiver or a tenner a time, surely this would mount to a substantial amount?

You can count me in, so what way do we take this forward?

ATB

Send pledges to Hawkmaster and when we have a decent sum pledged then contact the Wildlife Liason Officer (WLO) for Lothian and Borders Police, and maybe Border News ! :wink:

[KiteTrainer]

Send pledges to Hawkmaster and when we have a decent sum pledged then contact the Wildlife Liason Officer (WLO) for Lothian and Borders Police, and maybe Border News ! :wink:


It is a PC Rafferty, not sure where he works but can find that out

[Dougie Mc]

if people want i can phone him

[KiteTrainer]

if people want i can phone him

I think it would be worth testing the waters

[Chicquera]

I think it would be worth testing the waters

Well, just keep the pledges coming and "Hybred" can give the WLO a call asap and say that the IFF would like to contribute to the reward, and see what he says !

[Hawkmaster]

We already have £150 pledged;)

[Goldie]

We already have £150 pledged;)

Add another £50

[Hawkmaster]

Cheers Jim that make it £200:supz:

See already 20% of the RSPCA pleadge and we only started an hour and 20 minutes ago!

[M Donnelly]

It's a pity the falconry community cant also put together a reward for information !!!

I would hope people would volouteer information without a reward being offered. But people who do this sort of thing are twisted and so are those they associate with so could be possibly be tempted by the lure of money. I for one would chip in to a reward.

[Chicquera]

I hope everyone that reads this will chip in, even £5, if nothing else it will make a statement for falconry that we support the protection of our wild raptor population and will not tolerate it's mindless destruction !! :mad:

[TLDWB]

Just read this thread, was lucky enough to see a juvenile male in the borders a few years ago now. Very saddened to hear one has been poisoned.

Tom :(

[Ned]

put me down for £20 paul,atb ned.

[StormRider]

Put me down for £25 for the cause. How can people be so mindless? What sort of world are we in at the moment?

By the way how do we get the dosh to you HM?

STU

[Hawkmaster]

It is a pledge for now so no money has to be sent!

Thanks StormRider your name is on our list:supz:

[Sarah J]

Put me down for £25 HM :yawinkle:

[MarkOfReading]

171 readers so far so the £5 idea sounds good to me count me in

[Hawkmaster]

Cheers guys!

£505 now!

:heart:

[MickeyDredd]

put me down for 25 quid please.

[Pendleside]

likewise .
do me the same .

[Graham C]

Just out of curiosity,why can't this poison be banned so that mindless idiots cant use it that way,if and when caught. They are not only charged with possession but intent and killing birds of prey. £25 quid to the cause cheers.

[MickeyDredd]

Carbofuran is an insecticide that was banned for all uses in the UK from June 2001.

[Pendleside]

just an idea ,but publicity wise this could be massive .
playing the rspb at their own game and offering much more reward (if it carries on at this pace .)
and who better to present the offer than a local iff member who (as it happens) flies eagles ?
all angles covered .
if neil is up for it then i think this could be an added bonus , especially if done with an eagle on the fist .
anyone got the number for border tv ?

[Hawkmaster]

We are now at £580 :supz: :lol:

[Alan G]

just an idea ,but publicity wise this could be massive .
playing the rspb at their own game and offering much more reward (if it carries on at this pace .)
and who better to present the offer than a local iff member who (as it happens) flies eagles ?
all angles covered .
if neil is up for it then i think this could be an added bonus , especially if done with an eagle on the fist .
anyone got the number for border tv ?

This is all i could find:



General Enquiries You can write with comments on programmes, websites and policies to:
Programme Information,
BBC Scotland,
Broadcasting House,
Glasgow
G12 8DG
Telephone: 0870 010 0222
Minicom: 0870 010 0212
e-mail: enquiries.scot@bbc.co.uk
More BBC info: Ceefax page 695 and www.bbc.co.uk/info
Technical/engineering info: Contact BBC Scotland Reception Advice at the above address.
Telephone 0870 010 0123
More info at Ceefax page 698

Addresses of BBC Scotland sites
(NB. All enquiries should go through central addresses above)


Dumfries
Elmbank, Lover’s Walk, Dumfries, DG1 INZ
Tel: 01387 268 008

Glasgow
Broadcasting House, Queen Margaret Drive, Glasgow, G12 8DG
Tel: 0141 339 8844




Please contact us about any aspect of Border's regional programme service or regional projects at:
ITV Border Television
The Television Centre
Carlisle
CA1 3NT

Telephone: 01228 525 101
Facsimile: 01228 541 384

[GSP]

We are now at £580 :supz: :lol:

A conviction for this is well worth £50.00 of my money so put me down
Steve

[Berkut]

just an idea ,but publicity wise this could be massive .
playing the rspb at their own game and offering much more reward (if it carries on at this pace .)
and who better to present the offer than a local iff member who (as it happens) flies eagles ?
all angles covered .
if neil is up for it then i think this could be an added bonus , especially if done with an eagle on the fist .
anyone got the number for border tv ?

Good idea Pete and worth consideration.
Neil.

[Pendleside]

This is all i could find:



General Enquiries You can write with comments on programmes, websites and policies to:
Programme Information,
BBC Scotland,
Broadcasting House,
Glasgow
G12 8DG
Telephone: 0870 010 0222
Minicom: 0870 010 0212
e-mail: enquiries.scot@bbc.co.uk
More BBC info: Ceefax page 695 and www.bbc.co.uk/info
Technical/engineering info: Contact BBC Scotland Reception Advice at the above address.
Telephone 0870 010 0123
More info at Ceefax page 698

Addresses of BBC Scotland sites
(NB. All enquiries should go through central addresses above)


Dumfries
Elmbank, Lover’s Walk, Dumfries, DG1 INZ
Tel: 01387 268 008

Glasgow
Broadcasting House, Queen Margaret Drive, Glasgow, G12 8DG
Tel: 0141 339 8844




Please contact us about any aspect of Border's regional programme service or regional projects at:
ITV Border Television
The Television Centre
Carlisle
CA1 3NT

Telephone: 01228 525 101
Facsimile: 01228 541 384

this would need to be sorted with paul and then neil .:wink:

[Alan G]

this would need to be sorted with paul and then neil .:wink:

Absolutely agree pete, better to have diplomacy at the front and then who better than Neil, a berkutchi & being involved as a WLO to present the offer. Statements from both Paul & Neil.

:supz:

[Sprout]

Put me down for £25 too

[Glow]

Put me down for £20.00

[CanadaManada]

I'm not what might be termed a rich man, but this makes my blood boil.
£50 from Japan. I want to see the face of who did this.

[Kennelre]

I pledge £20.


...Rene.

[MickeyDredd]

and who better to present the offer than a local iff member who (as it happens) flies eagles ?


Absolutely agree pete, better to have diplomacy at the front and then who better than Neil, a berkutchi & being involved as a WLO to present the reward. Statements from both Paul & Neil.



I think it would be a good idea and very good PR for falconers in general to get some publicity by making the offer, expressing the outrage at such incidents by the falconry community.

But no involvement in "presenting" any reward.

[Pendleside]

I think it would be a good idea and very good PR for falconers in general to get some publicity by making the offer, expressing the outrage at such incidents by the falconry community.

But no involvement in "presenting" any reward.

thats why i said 'offer' .
obviously nothing gets handed over until a conviction is found .
but as soon as we can match , or even better the rspb' s reward it needs publicising .

[MickeyDredd]

thats why i said 'offer' .
obviously nothing gets handed over until a conviction is found .
but as soon as we can match , or even better the rspb' s reward it needs publicising .

Thats why I quoted two posts ;) The emphasis wasnt on yours Peggy! :lol:

[Pendleside]

Thats why I quoted two posts ;) The emphasis wasnt on yours Peggy! :lol:

i am aware dickey .
it was for the benefit of others . :roll:
back to your sardines . :D

[Big JoeJoe]

Thats why I quoted two posts ;) The emphasis wasnt on yours Peggy! :lol:


PMSL PMSL Yea Peggy pmsl:lol:

[Big JoeJoe]

I pledge £20

[Eagle Al]

I'll pledge £10, wish I could offer more but it all helps

[Dougie Mc]

bordertv were down at peebles show on saturday i think they took film of my goldie it can be used if need be and i do just live over the hill from the place it happened, used to see her fly over when sat in the garden

Dougie

[Onyx25]

put me down for £25. We had a male down here earlier in the year no jesses it was absolutely stunning hope they catch them.

[Harrisii]

i learned of this yesterday morning but didnt post it up as i didnt have all the facts. i was gutted then and i am gutted more now after seeing pictures of the bird.
a 10 year old female with a half grown chick in the nest.

i know for one that a 6 month maximum jail term is not enough for these people.

how must they feel knowing they have killed the only nesting female golden eagle in the Borders of Scotland.

this will hit the population very very hard and its unlikely another will take her place.

i would love to see the culprit and their estate punnished to the severity of the law and force fed a grouse laced with the same.

this stuff makes me ill.

you have my £20.

[GDN]

Just sent a pm to Hawkmaster pledging £50. Whats the total at now?

This unfortunate incident is an embarressment to Scotland and i hope they find the person who did this

[Hawkmaster]

Total now is £950

Guys if any of you know people off the forum that may be willing to pledge some cash if there is a conviction then speak to them and PM me and I will add them to the LIst:D

Well done everyone, we have now even gone 24 hours yet and have pledges almost to match the RSPCA;)

[Pendleside]

Total now is £950

Guys if any of you know people off the forum that may be willing to pledge some cash if there is a conviction then speak to them and PM me and I will add them to the LIst:D

Well done everyone, we have now even gone 24 hours yet and have pledges almost to match the RSPCA;)

thats outstanding .
it means more when its come direct from peoples pockets and not some central fund .
excellent p.r. value both inside and outside the falconry spectrum .

[Chicquera]

Total now is £950

Guys if any of you know people off the forum that may be willing to pledge some cash if there is a conviction then speak to them and PM me and I will add them to the LIst:D

Well done everyone, we have now even gone 24 hours yet and have pledges almost to match the RSPCA;)

That's great, well done everyone, keep it coming !!
I dont think we can let this run too long as we need to go public while there's still media interest so if there's anyone out there who has information they will get to hear about the extra reward offered on top of what the RSPB have put forward.
I would suggest that we draw a close to this by the end of today and then approach Border News, maybe with a photo of one of "our" eagle guys and their bird, and say after hearing about the death of the female eagle on Border News members of the IFF have raised £**** towards the reward offered for information on the person who poisoned the Borders eagle.
There must be other ways of getting info out to the media, anyone know how ?

[MickeyDredd]

Agreed, we need to get this out asap.

Once we get to £1,000 we should announce it, the amount can always be updated should others pledge. We can state that this is the amount raised so far by members of the IFF and the figure is still rising.

I think we just nominate someone (or someone volunteers!:D ) to contact Border TV/BBC and also first ascertain whether Neil or Doug are willing to do a piece on TV with their Goldies if the TV folk request it, and whether they are happy to do the spiel on camera or whether we nominate another member to do so.

[Hawkmaster]

I will ring them!:lol:

[MickeyDredd]

I will ring them!:lol:

Ok, but I doubt if Border TV will understand you!! :butthead: :lol:

[Hawkmaster]

Nae matter:lol:

[Claire]

put me down for a tenner, wish I could afford more :(

[Berkut]

£50 from me.That should take it over the £1000.

[TiercelJim]

well worth the effort,you get sick of hearing this type of *****, count me in.
who's sorting the donations?

[Chicquera]

£50 from me.That should take it over the £1000.

You may need to keep that for "make up" if we're going to be putting you in front of a TV camera :lol: :lol: :lol:

[MickeyDredd]

well worth the effort,you get sick of hearing this type of *****, count me in.
who's sorting the donations?

Hawkmaster is keeping a record, obviously no money required unless and until information leading to a conviction is received presumably.

[Berkut]

You may need to keep that for "make up" if we're going to be putting you in front of a TV camera :lol: :lol: :lol:

I was going to borrow yours. ;)

[MickeyDredd]

You may need to keep that for "make up" if we're going to be putting you in front of a TV camera :lol: :lol: :lol:

and hair dye!! :lol:

[Berkut]

and hair dye!! :lol:

Strawberry blonde is camera friendly . 8-)

[Chicquera]

I was going to borrow yours. ;)

Sorry, I'm just a poor falcon breeder, paper bag with two holes cut in it, I'm afraid !! :rolleyes:

[Chicquera]

Strawberry blonde is camera friendly . 8-)

Will you be wearing your skirt, oh sorry, I mean kilt !!:lol:

[Sprout]

Will you be wearing your skirt, oh sorry, I mean kilt !!:lol:

It'd be a bit draughty for a wee daftie;) :P

[Lascelles]

There must be other ways of getting info out to the media, anyone know how ?

If you look on the web-sites of any news organisations (BBC,Sun, Mirror) they will have an e-mail address for their newsdesk.

August is "silly season" (dead for news stories) so there is more than a fair chance that most of them would be interested in the story - even on a national level.

[TiercelJim]

Hawkmaster is keeping a record, obviously no money required unless and until information leading to a conviction is received presumably.
Cheers mate,put me down for £50 well worth it to help find the ****ant.

[KiteTrainer]

Put me down for £50 also

[Martin Whitley]

Put me downn for £25

[Chicquera]

If you look on the web-sites of any news organisations (BBC,Sun, Mirror) they will have an e-mail address for their newsdesk.

August is "silly season" (dead for news stories) so there is more than a fair chance that most of them would be interested in the story - even on a national level.

Sounds good !!! :supz:
Maybe IFF can put out a press release !

[MickeyDredd]

If you look on the web-sites of any news organisations (BBC,Sun, Mirror) they will have an e-mail address for their newsdesk.

August is "silly season" (dead for news stories) so there is more than a fair chance that most of them would be interested in the story - even on a national level.

Sounds good !!! :supz:
Maybe IFF can put out a press release !

I think Hawkmaster is busily contacting them as we type, he will update us soon no doubt.

[Chicquera]

I think Hawkmaster is busily contacting them as we type, he will update us soon no doubt.

Good man, I'm proud of you all, well done !!! :supz:

[Amateur Photographer]

Please accept my £25 guys and well done!

[Hawkmaster]

Thank you EVERYONE your names are on the list and we can only hope for the best!

I have contacted and spoken to the BBC Reporter that does the BBC Website and he will be taking it further and kindly gave me their Selkirk Radio number that will do something for us too! He also has this link to see our reaction and disgust at such an atrocious act!

We are currently at £1110:supz:

[MickeyDredd]

CAN ALL POSTS SPECULATING ABOUT THE CAUSE OF THE EAGLE'S DEATH AND RAPTOR PERSECUTION IN GENERAL PLEASE BE POSTED ON THE THREAD TO BE FOUND BY CLICKING THE UNDERNOTED LINK!!!

http://www.falconryforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=34159

[Goldie]

Might be a good idea for a number of forum members to be present with various birds to make sure the public are also aware that it is ALL falconers that are against this sort of thing. This is not just about "Eagles". Yes there are a few of us close by that can take an eagle along and thats fine, but other species included would have a better impact in my opinion. Most of the public still perceive falconry to be for the gentry and the opportunity to show our strength of commitment to our sport and get our good name across to the rspcb etc. should not be missed.

[Chicquera]

Might be a good idea for a number of forum members to be present with various birds to make sure the public are also aware that it is ALL falconers that are against this sort of thing. This is not just about "Eagles". Yes there are a few of us close by that can take an eagle along and thats fine, but other species included would have a better impact in my opinion. Most of the public still perceive falconry to be for the gentry and the opportunity to show our strength of commitment to our sport and get our good name across to the rspcb etc. should not be missed.

Yes, a small representive group, if possible, would be a good idea, if there is any press interest.

[Fraser Hamilton]

Might be a good idea for a number of forum members to be present with various birds to make sure the public are also aware that it is ALL falconers that are against this sort of thing. This is not just about "Eagles". Yes there are a few of us close by that can take an eagle along and thats fine, but other species included would have a better impact in my opinion. Most of the public still perceive falconry to be for the gentry and the opportunity to show our strength of commitment to our sport and get our good name across to the rspcb etc. should not be missed.

totalay agree with u spot on :supz: :supz:



fraser

[Barry]

This is particular interest to me having had a Verreaux Eagle poisoned in 2006. I have also been hit by falconry crime, it's made it a hard year but I'll make a pledge by PM.

Barry

[Hawkmaster]

I have now been given the General planning email for the BBC and they will decide how big and far they will spread the story.

Also sent an email to a gent from the mirror that will see if he and either help us or put us in touch with the right people to get this story heard all over the country to try and prevent this kind of thing happening in the future!:supz:

[Hawkmaster]

If you would like to help by getting this story on your local news be it radio, paper or TV please find me their numbers and I will ring them and forward any info via email if it needs to be done that way.

UPDATE: ITV Borders now also has the story!:supz:

[Pitbull]

I noticed SKY news had it on yesterday also.

[Hawkmaster]

Those of you that have personal friends or know people that can make huge contributions to the pledge fund please get in touch with them so we can try to get these culprits exposed!

It is BIG figures that are going to make the difference between folks that grass and those that don't:lol:

UPDATE:£1280

[Rabbit Killer]

One of the only breeding pair of golden eagles in the Scottish Borders has been killed by poison.

The bird was found on Sunday and tests have confirmed that the banned substance carbofuran was involved.

The Scottish RSPB has offered a reward of £1,000 to anyone who can help provide information about the case.


Full Article

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/south_of_scotland/6944017.stm


I hope they cut the B**ls of who ever is responsible! :evil:


It was confirmed on the Scottish News, that it was a laced Grouse that was used.

It is very sad that in this day and age, people still have to resort to poisoning raptors. Whilst I wont point any fingers or blame any particular group for this horrendous act, we on here must all condem this as a blatant act against the Wildlife of the UK.
There should be a mandatory jail sentence for anyone convicted of deliberately poisoning raptors, there is no excuse for it.
No fines, no probation, no suspended sentences, they should go straight over the wall until the message gets through.

To whoever has done this - You are a dispicable piece of scum and you deserve to be eating porridge for a long time !!!!

[Graham Stuart]

To whoever has done this - You are a dispicable piece of scum and you deserve to be eating porridge for a long time !!!!
Sorry to disagree but porridge is far too good for them.

[Chicquera]

If you would like to help by getting this story on your local news be it radio, paper or TV please find me their numbers and I will ring them and forward any info via email if it needs to be done that way.

UPDATE: ITV Borders now also has the story!:supz:

www.scottishnewspapers.com has links to all the newspapers published in Scotland, maybe pick out a few of the Borders papers !

[Bron]

Those of you that have personal friends or know people that can make huge contributions to the pledge fund please get in touch with them so we can try to get these culprits exposed!

It is BIG figures that are going to make the difference between folks that grass and those that don't:lol:

UPDATE:£1280

Put me down for £20.

[Hawkmaster]

Being a nice South African boy I do not know which are which so will send it to all of them!:lol:

Thanks!;)

[Kentish Falconry]

I have only just seen this put me down for £200 with the proviso that should the culprit get 4 or more years in prison I will raise it to £500.

[SakerJack]

I will donate one Great Southern Double Hopi hood any falcon or hawk size that can be auctioned off and the $$ put towards the effort..

[Goldie]

I have only just seen this put me down for £200 with the proviso that should the culprit get 4 or more years in prison I will raise it to £500.

nice one terry but unless i am mistaken, the penalty here is a max 6 months or up to £10000

[Kentish Falconry]

nice one terry but unless i am mistaken, the penalty here is a max 6 months or up to £10000

Then the prosecution needs to find a good Barrister who can get a new precedent set in court to show this type of scum that they can't mess with our National Wildlife. Shooting any BOP is a bad enough offence but to poison one and leave it to suffer a terrible death is just too much for me, Look what they did to Barry's Black Eagle and the way that suffered from the effects, Just give me 10 mins with the culprit and my ugly stick and I will show them pain :evil:

[Hawkmaster]

I though your boyfriend said that stick doesn't hurt?:twisted:

[Hawkmaster]

UPDATE:£2485
Thanks to a big donation:supz:

[Moritz]

put me in for 20 pounds. this is such a great idea. that is the way forward.

mo

[Goldie]

Have spoken at length to the Daily Record (the largest scottish tabloid) and directed them to the site and this thread. They wish to keep this incident in the public eye:supz:

[MickeyDredd]

Excellent stuff Goldie!! :supz:

[Rabbit Killer]

Thank you EVERYONE your names are on the list and we can only hope for the best!

I have contacted and spoken to the BBC Reporter that does the BBC Website and he will be taking it further and kindly gave me their Selkirk Radio number that will do something for us too! He also has this link to see our reaction and disgust at such an atrocious act!

We are currently at £1110:supz:

Full credit to you for the effort your making to expose this disgusting crime, I just hope the person(s) responsible are found and put on trial for what is a most sinister crime.
I know the RSPB monitor this site, so RSPB, you will now be aware that we in the Falconry world find that this matter is an atrocious act and we fully support any action taken against the low life responsible for committing this crime.

[Hawkmaster]

Yes I have also spoken to them and they have given me the telephone number of a freelance reporter that writes for various papers and will help us too, I hope. He wrote this article for them, once again brought to my attention by this threads author Alan G
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/news/tm_headline=poisoned-in-the-name-of-sport%26method=full%26objectid=19622881%26siteid=6 6633-name_page.html:supz:

[Chicquera]

Full credit to you for the effort your making to expose this disgusting crime, I just hope the person(s) responsible are found and put on trial for what is a most sinister crime.
I know the RSPB monitor this site, so RSPB, you will now be aware that we in the Falconry world find that this matter is an atrocious act and we fully support any action taken against the low life responsible for committing this crime.

Hopefully this will be taken as a serious message that this terrible crime will not be tolerated and the scum that do this kind of thing will think twice in future ! :evil:

[Hawkmaster]

Update: Spoke to SKY NEWS
£2505

[Pitbull]

Update: Spoke to SKY NEWS



And ???????????????:lol:

[Hawkmaster]

Info sent and they will take it further!;)

[TheZuffler]

Sarah Kennedy was talking about it on Radio2 this morning, she was just reading it from the papers but an email to her might help.

[Pitbull]

Info sent and they will take it further!;)

Well done Paul, keep up the good work.:supz:

[GaryPCO]

going well guys put me down for £25 8-)

[Fudge100]

sorry i'm employed at the moment and wish i could do more but if it helps put me down for £10.:neutral:

[Hawkmaster]

Just done a telephone interview for BBC Selkirk with Richard Gordon

[MickeyDredd]

Paul

Can you expand and update the members on what you are actually discussing and also planning with regard to the media, i'm sure they would like to be kept abreast of things.

[PaulWar3]

What a great effort guys. Hope this helps to catch the tw**s.
Put me down for £20.

Paul

[Chicquera]

sorry i'm employed at the moment and wish i could do more but if it helps put me down for £10.:neutral:

People only need to pledge what they can afford, £5 or £1000, doesn't matter, it all adds up. Showing that falconers from the IFF care about our wild raptor population, that's what matters ! :-)
Good on ya !!!:-)

[Hawkmaster]

UPDATE:
Robert Fairburn a Borders reporter has taken details and will pursue our cause to oust these criminals.

Spoke to Frank Bradford, who is a freelance journalist and photographer. He is on the case and will want to take some pictures of Golden Eagles and youngsters too, so keep your PMs coming.

Guys so far most of the things I am doing is just putting our side across and the press will take it further! They are being given links to this site and I would like you to please say how you feel about this matter but be diplomatic as this is serious and needs to be put across as professionally as possible :supz:

A note to the press: Thanks you for you help in getting this kind of activity stamped out.

[JedT]

Paul put me down for £25,Jed.

[ferco]

I'm down for £10- this is sick it really is

[Chicquera]

UPDATE:
Robert Fairburn a Borders reporter has taken details and will pursue our cause to oust these criminals.

Spoke to Frank Bradford, who is a freelance journalist and photographer. He is on the case and will want to take some pictures of Golden Eagles and youngsters too, so keep your PMs coming.

Guys so far most of the things I am doing is just putting our side across and the press will take it further! They are being given links to this site and I would like you to please say how you feel about this matter but be diplomatic as this is serious and needs to be put across as professionally as possible :supz:

A note to the press: Thanks you for you help in getting this kind of activity stamped out.

Paul, I think everyone appreciates the time you are dedicating to this cause, on behalf of everyone, thank you for pushing everyones anger in a positive direction !
I think as we all spend a lot of time around birds of prey we know just how intelligent these birds are, especially eagles, and know that the male bird and chick will be stressed by the loss of the female. I would imagine that most of us that read the opening to this thread yesterday would have felt sick in the stomach to know that there are still people around who will indiscrimately scatter poison around the countryside with no thought of what it may kill, Buzzard, Peregrine, Golden Eagles, Dog, Cat or Child !!
We as falconers have received so much negative publicity over the years but anyone who is prepared to listen and understand our interests will realise most of us are just as fascinated with wild raptors as we are with our own and care deeply about their conservation. I hope that the IFF's response to the death of the Borders Eagle will put everyone in no doubt as to where we all stand and the criminal that poisoned the Eagle can be brought to justice and receive the maximum possible penalty the law will allow as a warning to those who think this kind of thing is acceptable !!

[As The Falcon Her Bells]

put me down on £25 as well please Paul.

[M Donnelly]

Paul, I think everyone appreciates the time you are dedicating to this cause, on behalf of everyone, thank you for pushing everyones anger in a positive direction !


I agree. I'm in for £25.

What I am impressed about is the fact that what this thread is showing that people on the IFF can be shocked and angered by something but can react in a positive way united as a collective, giving more weght to what is said on here. Especially after recent threads. We need to keep unifeid in such matters. Hats of to everyone who is doing something about this all the small things make a difference.

[Hawkmaster]

UPDATE:I have now email a few Press agencies and the local ITV Westcountry team

£2610

[Alan G]

Paul, I think everyone appreciates the time you are dedicating to this cause, on behalf of everyone, thank you for pushing everyones anger in a positive direction !
I think as we all spend a lot of time around birds of prey we know just how intelligent these birds are, especially eagles, and know that the male bird and chick will be stressed by the loss of the female. I would imagine that most of us that read the opening to this thread yesterday would have felt sick in the stomach to know that there are still people around who will indiscrimately scatter poison around the countryside with no thought of what it may kill, Buzzard, Peregrine, Golden Eagles, Dog, Cat or Child !!
We as falconers have received so much negative publicity over the years but anyone who is prepared to listen and understand our interests will realise most of us are just as fascinated with wild raptors as we are with our own and care deeply about their conservation. I hope that the IFF's response to the death of the Borders Eagle will put everyone in no doubt as to where we all stand and the criminal that poisoned the Eagle can be bought to justice and receive the maximum possible penalty the law will allow as a warning to those who think this kind of thing is acceptable !!


Yes, definitely "Hats Off" to Paul & all the members that have pledged a donation.

Also, i have been on the telephone with the Director of The Scottish Association For Country Sports "SACS" & they are in the middle of it with their solicitors preparing statements to criticise and dam this mindless act.

I know Paul will be in contact with them, as they will be with Paul, as i have past the Directors Details on to Paul & SACS should be getting involved on our behalves too.

[Hawkmaster]

No need to thank me guys it is everyone that helps and that mean YOU!:heart:

[MickeyDredd]

UPDATE:I have now email a few Press agencies and the local ITV Westcountry team

£2610

That is an incredible sum when you think the RSPB only offered £1,000 with the resources they have!!!!!

Well done everyone. As M Donnelly says, this is more like the spirit the forum is capable of portraying, lets try to keep this momentum going. :supz:

[Alan G]

Here is the lates update from the BBC Scotlands Website

Global outrage over eagle killing

An international falconry forum has raised a reward to help find who killed one of the only breeding pair of golden eagles in the Scottish Borders.

One member of the International Falconry Forum posted the story featured on the BBC Scotland news website on Monday afternoon.

Within 24 hours the Torquay-based group had gathered more than £1,000 in reward offers from its members.

Information sought

"You have got people saying what they would like to do to these people," said Mr Hill.

"People are outraged really.

"The post has been looked at 1,200 times and there are 87 replies so there is quite a lot of feeling out there."

He said he hoped that by offering the reward it might prompt somebody to come forward with information about the incident.

Lothian and Borders Police have also appealed for anyone with information about the killing to contact them.


Full Article :

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/south_of_scotland/6946264.stm


Brilliant work guys.

ATB

[Hacker]

For any radio shows that go out with coverage you can usually get a link for the show to listen to later.

[Graham Irving]

Yes, definitely "Hats Off" to Paul & all the members that have pledged a donation.

Also, i have been on the telephone with the Director of The Scottish Association For Country Sports "SACS" & they are in the middle of it with their solicitors preparing statements to criticise and dam this mindless act.

I know Paul will be in contact with them, as they will be with Paul, as i have past the Directors Details on to Paul & SACS should be getting involved on our behalves too.

Can i suggest that we get the sporting press involved as well .......... shooting times, country life ,the field, shooting gazzette etc?

Graham

[Hawkmaster]

Good idea Graham if someone can get me BT numbers or emails I will get on to it asap

Thanks guys!:D

[Heinz]

This was the only site in the Borders that's ever succeeded, but all chicks over the years have disappeared without trace ... It's also unlikely that the malewill attract another female to the territory, because it tends to be the females that 'own' the nest. So this is quite possibly the end of the Borders population.

[Hawkmaster]

Welcome to the forum Heinz

Can you possibly tell us more?

Paul:lol:

[Dougie Mc]

heinz they forget to say that there is other pairs in the borders but this year they have not been sucsesfull

[Chicquera]

This was the only site in the Borders that's ever succeeded, but all chicks over the years have disappeared without trace ... It's also unlikely that the malewill attract another female to the territory, because it tends to be the females that 'own' the nest. So this is quite possibly the end of the Borders population.

I think there's a lot falconers / breeders could do to help populate some of these areas with eagles if only the Raptor Study Groups and the RSPB would talk to "us". Due to the Cain and Abel syndrome in Eagles there is a massive resource just going to waste.
People in the UK will think that Golden Eagles are birds of the high mountains but for anyone who has travelled through the mid-west of the United States it is obvious that these birds can survive in low country also.
I dont see why the populations of Southern Scotland and the Lake District couldn't be given a helping hand if the habitat is there to support them !

[MickeyDredd]

If they can be taken from the Highlands and released in Ireland then why not in the Borders?????

i'm sure they wouldnt breed with the 100 sea eagles being released relatively nearby :rolleyes: ;)

[Chicquera]

If they can be taken from the Highlands and released in Ireland then why not in the Borders?????

i'm sure they wouldnt breed with the 100 sea eagles being released relatively nearby :rolleyes: ;)

But surely the sea eagles are coastal birds and wouldn't effect an inland population of Goldies ?

[MickeyDredd]

But surely the sea eagles are coastal birds and wouldn't effect an inland population of Goldies ?

Sorry that was a wee joke, my point really was we can manipulate the geographical population of raptors with foreign imports of extinct species but cannot appear to do so with our own populations.

However, it is accepted by the RSPB that some of the sea eagles will wander inland!! my office is on the 4th floor of an edinburgh building so I'm looking forward to seeing them, it will make a nice change from gulls!! :lol: :lol:

[YorkHawk]

a peregrine was found to have been poisoned with the same stuff on the Nork Yorkshire Moors but nobody would do tests on it. it was done to a member of the public to pay for tests to be done and sent to defra . the tests proved positive but rspb and rspca still cant be bothered to persue it even though they suspect someone so dont hold your breath for a conviction.
i am as mad as anyone over this but cant see much being done once the chest beating has stopped sorry

Greg

[Graham Irving]

Good idea Graham if someone can get me BT numbers or emails I will get on to it asap

Thanks guys!:D


shooting times news desk .... 0203 148 4749
STEditorial@ipcmedia.com

country life ........www.countrylife .co.uk
features editor Rebecca Pearson 0203 148 4430


Have also just e mailed the BFC council to see if they will get involved in this!

Graham

[Alan G]

a peregrine was found to have been poisoned with the same stuff on the Nork Yorkshire Moors but nobody would do tests on it. it was done to a member of the public to pay for tests to be done and sent to defra . the tests proved positive but rspb and rspca still cant be bothered to persue it even though they suspect someone so dont hold your breath for a conviction.
i am as mad as anyone over this but cant see much being done once the chest beating has stopped sorry

Greg


Taken from Todays Daily Record:

SICKENED wildlife cops have vowed to hunt down the killer of a golden eagle found poisoned on a grouse moor yesterday.


POISONED IN THE NAME OF SPORT
Golden eagle is found dead on grouse moor in Borders estate
By Robert Fairburn


SICKENED wildlife cops have vowed to hunt down the killer of a golden eagle found poisoned on a grouse moor yesterday.

The magnificent bird - half of the only breeding pair in the Borders - died after eating a piece of bait laced with a deadly illegal pesticide.

Rogue gamekeepers have often used such poisoned baits to kill eagles and buzzards.

They blame the birds for eating the grouse their rich clients pay to shoot for sport.

The golden eagle, a 10-year-old female with a half-grown chick, was found dead on the first day of the grouse-shooting season.

It's feared the chick will now struggle to survive with only its father to feed it. Its mother could have lived for another 15 years.


The Scottish Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals condemed the poisoning as "mindless" and "sickening".


And the local wildlife crime officer, Constable Mark Rafferty of Lothian and Borders Police, vowed: "This incident will be thoroughly investigated."


Mark, who featured in BBC Scotland documentary Wildlife Detectives, added: "It is a tragedy that this has happened.


"There are no excuses for this kind of activity and those responsible will be brought to justice."


The eagle was poisoned with carbofuran, a banned insecticide so lethal that a quarter of a teaspoonful can kill a man.


The location of the crime is being kept secret to protect the bird's chick. But conservationists were not surprised that the poison was left on a grouse moor.


Bob Elliot of the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds said: "There is a correlation between the location of grouse moors and the incidence of poisoning.


"Illegal persecution of birds of prey continues to be a shameful fact of life in parts of Scotland."


The RSPB are offering a £1000 reward for information that leads to the poisoner's arrest. The maximum sentence for poisoning a protected bird of prey is six months in jail or a £10,000 fine.


Scotland has an estimated 420 golden eagle pairs but the vast majority are in the Highlands.


Alex Hogg, chairman of the Scottish Gamekeepers' Association, said the organisation was "absolutely appalled" at the poisoning of the eagle.




Full Article:

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/news/tm_headline=poisoned-in-the-name-of-sport%26method=full%26objectid=19622881%26siteid=6 6633-name_page.html

[Chicquera]

a peregrine was found to have been poisoned with the same stuff on the Nork Yorkshire Moors but nobody would do tests on it. it was done to a member of the public to pay for tests to be done and sent to defra . the tests proved positive but rspb and rspca still cant be bothered to persue it even though they suspect someone so dont hold your breath for a conviction.
i am as mad as anyone over this but cant see much being done once the chest beating has stopped sorry

Greg

There's no "chesting beating" on here, only positive action. Sentences quite often reflect the strength of public feeling with regards to crime, if this person comes to court they may well just bring back capital punishment !! :evil:
And there is no need for it to stop here, there needs to be some serious lobbying done to put pressure on government to up the sentences for this type of crime !

[Sue2]

I'm pledging £50. Sue

[YorkHawk]

sorry if you mis understood me I was not accusing anyone on here of chest beating it was aimed at certain gov bodies

[Goldie]

I'm pledging £50. Sue

Well done Sue:supz:

This is a fantastic response from the members in less than 24hrs. lets keep it going guys, every little helps to boost the reward and the more chance of loosening someones tongue.

[Alan G]

sorry if you mis understood me I was not accusing anyone on here of chest beating it was aimed at certain gov bodies

No worries, but Lothian & Borders Police are determined to get the guilty party and i don't think anyone is going to give up on such a majestic, regal creature as the Golden Eagle.

It has only this week been discussed with the Scottish MSP's about adopting the Goldie as Scotlands national bird for use on a new flag that is being proposed.

[Chicquera]

No worries, but Lothian & Borders Police are determined to get the guilty party and i don't think anyone is going to give up on such a majestic, regal creature as the Golden Eagle.

It has only this week been discussed with the Scottish MSP's about adopting the Goldie as Scotlands national bird for use on a new falg that is being proposed.

Bound to an Englishman maybe ? :lol:

(I'm English, by the way !)

[Alan G]

Bound to an Englishman maybe ? :lol:

(I'm English, by the way !)

PMSL

Think they still use tar & feathers for that :roll: :lol:

[Hawkmaster]

a peregrine was found to have been poisoned with the same stuff on the Nork Yorkshire Moors but nobody would do tests on it. it was done to a member of the public to pay for tests to be done and sent to defra . the tests proved positive but rspb and rspca still cant be bothered to persue it even though they suspect someone so dont hold your breath for a conviction.
i am as mad as anyone over this but cant see much being done once the chest beating has stopped sorry

Greg
Then start a thread on it with links and we will run with it.
shooting times news desk .... 0203 148 4749
STEditorial@ipcmedia.com

country life ........www.countrylife (http://www.countrylife) .co.uk
features editor Rebecca Pearson 0203 148 4430


Have also just e mailed the BFC council to see if they will get involved in this!

GrahamAll taken care of THANKS

UPDATE:£2695:supz:

[TLDWB]

A lot has happened regards keeping this in the news, i take my hat off to the forum on this one.:supz:

Put me down for £25.

Tom

[JimboMoorey]

Well done guys, this is a fantastic response.
Will be sending PM to Hawkmaster now with my pledge.

[JupeSingh]

Paul, pls put me down for £20.

Incidentally, in Slough, a few local Sikhs put up rewards for a swan which was tortured and killed and for a dog which was thrown off a block of flats.

We did it primarily due to our spiritual belief that animals deserve respect and compassion. However, we also wanted to show that we as a community care about the community we are part of and that people shouldn't judge a book by it's cover...

In a post 9/11 world, thanks to Mr Bin Laden, practising Sikhs have been singled out and even killed for wearing turbans and uncut hair by bigots. Sadly, 2+2=5 according to some people. My friend who lives in Slough was beaten black n blue by two yobs - his face was unrecognisable. I've just had name-calling so am quite lucky.

Anyway, we had lots of good feedback because of the publicity created in the local press and most importantly, it created a dialogue. People stop treating a group as two-dimensional when they are challenged by positive attitudes and actions.

Even if it's likely no-one will be caught, it's still worth pushing forward with this. It can only help the image of falconry. If we're really lucky, it might make someone out there share info they normally wouldn't have...and give the police a decent lead.

[HarrisHawkingNovice]

My mother works for a building comapany as a liason officer and as part of community relations she went to a sikh temple, she was really impressed with the whole thing, people, attitudes etc.




Paul, pls put me down for £20.

Incidentally, in Slough, a few local Sikhs put up rewards for a swan which was tortured and killed and for a dog which was thrown off a block of flats.

We did it primarily due to our spiritual belief that animals deserve respect and compassion. However, we also wanted to show that we as a community care about the community we are part of and that people shouldn't judge a book by it's cover...

In a post 9/11 world, thanks to Mr Bin Laden, practising Sikhs have been singled out and even killed for wearing turbans and uncut hair by bigots. Sadly, 2+2=5 according to some people. My friend who lives in Slough was beaten black n blue by two yobs - his face was unrecognisable. I've just had name-calling so am quite lucky.

Anyway, we had lots of good feedback because of the publicity created in the local press and most importantly, it created a dialogue. People stop treating a group as two-dimensional when they are challenged by positive attitudes and actions.

Even if it's likely no-one will be caught, it's still worth pushing forward with this. It can only help the image of falconry. If we're really lucky, it might make someone out there share info they normally wouldn't have...and give the police a decent lead.

[Graham C]

Have spoken at length to the Daily Record (the largest scottish tabloid) and directed them to the site and this thread. They wish to keep this incident in the public eye:supz:

Having read the record today, i noticed your man mark rafferty holding the eagle.Having watched a documentary with this chap he seems to be very much in the know of the scottish borders and is truly dedicated to the wildlife in his area. What i am trying to say is it wouldn't surprise me if he knew who commited this crime but has to keep stoom for obvious reasons and finds enough evidence for a conviction.

[Chicquera]

Paul, pls put me down for £20.

Incidentally, in Slough, a few local Sikhs put up rewards for a swan which was tortured and killed and for a dog which was thrown off a block of flats.

We did it primarily due to our spiritual belief that animals deserve respect and compassion. However, we also wanted to show that we as a community care about the community we are part of and that people shouldn't judge a book by it's cover...

In a post 9/11 world, thanks to Mr Bin Laden, practising Sikhs have been singled out and even killed for wearing turbans and uncut hair by bigots. Sadly, 2+2=5 according to some people. My friend who lives in Slough was beaten black n blue by two yobs - his face was unrecognisable. I've just had name-calling so am quite lucky.

Anyway, we had lots of good feedback because of the publicity created in the local press and most importantly, it created a dialogue. People stop treating a group as two-dimensional when they are challenged by positive attitudes and actions.

Even if it's likely no-one will be caught, it's still worth pushing forward with this. It can only help the image of falconry. If we're really lucky, it might make someone out there share info they normally wouldn't have...and give the police a decent lead.

I imagine these are difficult times for anyone of Asian origin and any of us that spend time in the Middle East will know just how far off the mark those bigoted attitudes you talk about are.
As falconers we all know too well what it's like to have a finger pointed at you, nest robbers etc, well maybe this is our opportunity to show the bigots what are values are and then maybe we can get some peace too !

[Berkut]

Having read the record today, i noticed your man mark rafferty holding the eagle.Having watched a documentary with this chap he seems to be very much in the know of the scottish borders and is truly dedicated to the wildlife in his area. What i am trying to say is it wouldn't surprise me if he knew who commited this crime but has to keep stoom for obvious reasons and finds enough evidence for a conviction.

I attended a couple of Wildlife Investigation Courses with Mark at Tulliallan Police College and he is knowledgable and keen. I know he will leave no stone unturned.

[GaryPCO]

Having read the record today, i noticed your man mark rafferty holding the eagle.Having watched a documentary with this chap he seems to be very much in the know of the scottish borders and is truly dedicated to the wildlife in his area. What i am trying to say is it wouldn't surprise me if he knew who commited this crime but has to keep stoom for obvious reasons and finds enough evidence for a conviction.
it could still be an anti thats done it anyhow,the press coverage and bad tounging keepers are having at the moment id not rule out a set up,like said in previous posts the keepers are very protective over theyre eagles and for it to have been a laced grouse is a little suspect why would a keeper kill a bird worth £50-£60 in the air when he could lace a hare or a rabbit,it dont make sense to me! we all know what lenghts these anti's are capable of going to!!!

[Berkut]

it could still be an anti thats done it anyhow,the press coverage and bad tounging keepers are having at the moment id not rule out a set up,like said in previous posts the keepers are very protective over theyre eagles and for it to have been a laced grouse is a little suspect why would a keeper kill a bird worth £50-£60 in the air when he could lace a hare or a rabbit,it dont make sense to me! we all know what lenghts these anti's are capable of going to!!!

Gary,
I don't want to say too much but this may also be looked into. Coincidence the bird was discovered on 12th August. Regardless I know the police will be doing their best and the bottom line is whichever part of society the culprit comes from, we all want the same outcome.
Regards,
Neil

[As The Falcon Her Bells]

it could still be an anti thats done it anyhow,the press coverage and bad tounging keepers are having at the moment id not rule out a set up,like said in previous posts the keepers are very protective over theyre eagles and for it to have been a laced grouse is a little suspect why would a keeper kill a bird worth £50-£60 in the air when he could lace a hare or a rabbit,it dont make sense to me! we all know what lenghts these anti's are capable of going to!!!

Very very good point Gary!

[Chicquera]

Any update on the IFF reward fund, or has Paul blown it all on a night on the town ? Very quiet over there !! :lol:

[Harrisii]

a great thing that raptor enthusiasts, (for want of a better phrase) come together and stand up for the protection of our wild heritage.
this is an appaling crime and one which those responsible for should be publicly flogged.

be great to up the anti' and put falconry and falconers in the light which is deserved and help to snare those responsible.
PR is a great thing and a reward from the IFF together with the relevant bodies would help to ease public and government preasure and perception on our passtime.
the difference with this particular reward is falconers truely care about raptors wild or otherwise.

whats the standpoint from the BFC, SHC, WHC, ETC, ETC.
anyone with conections sould surely try to get something sorted and come together.

this really is the perfect opportunity to show that the falconry community are truely appalled with this type of crime.
this has never happened before despite the fact that BOP are poisoned and persecuted on a regular basis.

enough, really is enough.

[DanasArt]

Made my reply to this topic off the link on page 9.

http://www.falconryforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=34159

Has anyone thought about taking this GLOBAL. :supz:

IE: UTUBE or another such simillar resource. Get all the different NATIONAL groups on board. I am not a NAFA member as of yet- but if I were that is definately one resource I would try and get support from. Canada, Africa, etc.

Tell me how I can help:confused:

[DanasArt]

Was thinking that that represe:D ntative group you were all chatting about would make good film for UTUBE

[redprawn]

If the murder victim had been a person, the police could surely look for carbofuran on the clothes of everyone working in the countryside in that area (or have I been watching too many TV crime dramas)?

Surely it's time that the law is changed so that a landowner is guilty of an offence if a protected bird of prey is found killed on their land. In addition to the crime committed by the killer. Or there could be a substantial yearly payment- in arrears - for having rare birds of prey alive and nesting on one's land. This might encourage better land management and food provision for the birds and a deeper interest in them as positive bits of nature.

[MickeyDredd]

a reward system has been mentioned in regard to assisting the protection of hen harriers on scottish estates at my Raptor Study group meetings for the last couple of years, unfortunately every time the same response is given......why should we pay someone not to break the law!!!

There are other ways of rewarding estates, both from a positive publicity perspective (e.g. there is a scheme in place where estates can sign up to a policy of non-persecution of raptors, positive publicity where WLO take rural schoolkids on to an estate to view raptor - which educates the youngsters (often kids of keepers etc ;) , etc)and perhaps, just perhaps from a compensation system where it can be proven that raptors on an estate are taking grouse (not put-down game).

[Chicquera]

a reward system has been mentioned in regard to assisting the protection of hen harriers on scottish estates at my Raptor Study group meetings for the last couple of years, unfortunately every time the same response is given......why should we pay someone not to break the law!!!

There are other ways of rewarding estates, both from a positive publicity perspective (e.g. there is a scheme in place where estates can sign up to a policy of non-persecution of raptors, positive publicity where WLO take rural schoolkids on to an estate to view raptor - which educates the youngsters (often kids of keepers etc ;) , etc)and perhaps, just perhaps from a compensation system where it can be proven that raptors on an estate are taking grouse (not put-down game).

Eco-tourism is becoming big business, with the state farming is in some of these large land owner may have to think twice once they reform the Common Agricultural Policy. They'd make more money from a pair of Eagles nesting on their ground than running 2000 sheep !

[Hawkmaster]

update:£2740

[Chicquera]

Was thinking that that represe:D ntative group you were all chatting about would make good film for UTUBE

Never mind Utube, I think Pauls talking to Warner Bros....."IFF - The Movie" !!
I'd heard they'd approached Vinny Jones to play Berkut !!:lol:

[MickeyDredd]

Eco-tourism is becoming big business, with the state farming is in some of these large land owner may have to think twice once they reform the Common Agricultural Policy. They'd make more money from a pair of Eagles nesting on their ground than running 2000 sheep !

The problem of being unwilling to move stance doesnt solely lie with the estates.

[Chicquera]

update:£2740

Amazing figure, though would be nice to see it rounded off to £3000, come on guys (& gals) just one last push !!!

[Chicquera]

The problem of being unwilling to move stance doesnt solely lie with the estates.

No, I agree, there's far too much "protectionism" and not enough "wildlife management", and that often comes from ill advised legislation.

[Peter Hindle]

We are now at £580 :supz: :lol:

Put me in for a £5

[PenelopeP]

Put me down for £10, hope it helps.

Jo :D

[Alan G]

Well that is a nice little article in todays Daily Record.

They are keeping the story going and have quoted Hawkmaster, mention the IFF & the background of the forum and the fact that the member have more than doubled the money being offered for information.



Has anyone else saw anything in their local newspapers today?

[Graham Stuart]

Well that is a nice little article in todays Daily Record.


get a copy up here then mate...graham

[PenelopeP]

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/news/tm_headline=soaring-reward-for-bird-killer%26method=full%26objectid=19631691%26siteid= 66633-name_page.html

Heres the article

[Martin Whitley]

Surely it's time that the law is changed so that a landowner is guilty of an offence if a protected bird of prey is found killed on their land. In addition to the crime committed by the killer. Or there could be a substantial yearly payment- in arrears - for having rare birds of prey alive and nesting on one's land. This might encourage better land management and food provision for the birds and a deeper interest in them as positive bits of nature.
So I have a small hill farm, someone a couple of miles away shoots/poisons a raptor, it makes it as far as my patch and dies I should be prosocuted/penalised ?
That would be a realy fair system wouldn't it.

[MickeyDredd]

Not the best worded article but keeps it in the spotlight!

[Az]

One of the only breeding pair of golden eagles in the Scottish Borders has been killed by poison.

The bird was found on Sunday and tests have confirmed that the banned substance carbofuran was involved.

The Scottish RSPB has offered a reward of £1,000 to anyone who can help provide information about the case.


Full Article

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/south_of_scotland/6944017.stm


I hope they cut the B**ls of who ever is responsible! :evil:


It was confirmed on the Scottish News, that it was a laced Grouse that was used.









i hope who ever its is is fed the poisen and put out tom be fed by lions and birds



how could they

[Rabbit Killer]

I am a little bit disheartened by the response from the RSPB.
They have put up a reward of a mere #1000 for information to help solve this case.
They have reserves of Millions of pounds and they pledge such a small amount for a bird that they are supposed to love and care about.
This is a bird that should be given the ultimate protection ( I know it is on paper ), but it seems to show what little regard they have for this crime.

They should be at least matching whatever is raised by the members on this forum, if not stumping up a significant amount that will cause someone to loosen up and open their mouths.

This was a deliberate act, no accident at all, and was committed by someone out there. Poison does not discriminate, it will kill whatever feeds off it and I just hope the press and media push this matter to the absolute limit if only to highlight the destructive nature of some individuals that still exists out there today.

[Sharandys]

Heartbreaking.......... please put us down for £10 these people need to be found and quick!

Sharandys x

[Dougie Mc]

its a great total folks hat of to everybody, hear is a thought talking about the estates getting something back, take the estate nr peebles if there eagles were to produce 2 chick remember the kane& able stuff , why could they not sell the second chick to say a falconer,zoo , then the estate would make a bit of cash 3-4000 quid is a lot of money to some estates i know they would have to get the relivent paper work, i suppose the main falconry breders might be against it.
But at least the estates would be keen to keep there raptors
the estates make some dosh
the birds get some form of protection


just thinking out loud

Hybred

[MickeyDredd]

Hybred

It is an idea but would never be sanctioned. if we cant take a spar from the wild with its huge population then a Goldie would never be allowed to be taken.

[Berkut]

its a great total folks hat of to everybody, hear is a thought talking about the estates getting something back, take the estate nr peebles if there eagles were to produce 2 chick remember the kane& able stuff , why could they not sell the second chick to say a falconer,zoo , then the estate would make a bit of cash 3-4000 quid is a lot of money to some estates i know they would have to get the relivent paper work, i suppose the main falconry breders might be against it.
But at least the estates would be keen to keep there raptors
the estates make some dosh
the birds get some form of protection


just thinking out loud

Hybred


See what you're saying but it is too much of a hot potato.The RSPB would rather let nature take its course than give anything to a falconer,even if they were paying for it.

Look at the Donegal release project.They managed to hatch 2 eagles in the same nest this year.Nature ran its course and the second chick was killed by the first. It would have been "wrong" to intervene apparently. Never mind the fact they have been removing eaglets from eyries in Scotland every year since the project began.

[Sirius]

I am a little bit disheartened by the response from the RSPB.
They have put up a reward of a mere #1000 for information to help solve this case.
They have reserves of Millions of pounds and they pledge such a small amount for a bird that they are supposed to love and care about.
This is a bird that should be given the ultimate protection ( I know it is on paper ), but it seems to show what little regard they have for this crime.

They should be at least matching whatever is raised by the members on this forum, if not stumping up a significant amount that will cause someone to loosen up and open their mouths.

This was a deliberate act, no accident at all, and was committed by someone out there. Poison does not discriminate, it will kill whatever feeds off it and I just hope the press and media push this matter to the absolute limit if only to highlight the destructive nature of some individuals that still exists out there today.
Agree with your sentiment but it would be disappointing or this to get side-tracked into a swipe at the RSPB for not spending enough on the reward etc. I'm certainly no apologist for the RSPB but, in my opinion, there's more mileage to be gained here in showing a united front rather than trying to take a side-swipe. In other words, the falconry fraternity are just as appalled (probably more so) at this as they are.

Cheers, Adi

[Dougie Mc]

It is an idea but would never be sanctioned. if we cant take a spar from the wild with its huge population then a Goldie would never be allowed to be taken

i don't just mean eagles it could be gos's spar's they the estate owners see cash coming in from them

why don't we try or are the people in charge not wanting to

i would be a way of bringing the estates in and they get something back, i remember when the ospreys turned up in the borders the original estate was never given any support thanks for the years they kept it quiet and protected them

[Hawkmaster]

Thanks for all your pledges people! If you place it here on the thread I will add you but do not want to turn this in to a thank you, thank you and thank you thread as it is far more important.

If you PM me I will obviously do it there and put you on the list!:supz:

UPDATE:£2785

[MickeyDredd]

i don't just mean eagles it could be gos's spar's they the estate owners see cash coming in from them

why don't we try or are the people in charge not wanting to



The RSPB and other Groups would never, ever allow it. They do not wish anyone to interfere with wild UK raptors - unless for replenishment or reintroduction programmes elsewhere - whether that be falconers or landowners and certainly they do not want anyone to gain financially from UK wildlife.

[TLDWB]

its a great total folks hat of to everybody, hear is a thought talking about the estates getting something back, take the estate nr peebles if there eagles were to produce 2 chick remember the kane& able stuff , why could they not sell the second chick to say a falconer,zoo , then the estate would make a bit of cash 3-4000 quid is a lot of money to some estates i know they would have to get the relivent paper work, i suppose the main falconry breders might be against it.
But at least the estates would be keen to keep there raptors
the estates make some dosh
the birds get some form of protection


just thinking out loud

Hybred

Good idea, but as you know the RSPB unfortunately have to much of a say regards bird legislation. They would never allow in to pass through government, if it even got that far.

Tom

[Chicquera]

its a great total folks hat of to everybody, hear is a thought talking about the estates getting something back, take the estate nr peebles if there eagles were to produce 2 chick remember the kane& able stuff , why could they not sell the second chick to say a falconer,zoo , then the estate would make a bit of cash 3-4000 quid is a lot of money to some estates i know they would have to get the relivent paper work, i suppose the main falconry breders might be against it.
But at least the estates would be keen to keep there raptors
the estates make some dosh
the birds get some form of protection


just thinking out loud

Hybred

Of course we all know that this would never be allowed because if nothing else it would be considered illegal under the EU Brids Directive/Cites/etc but for anyone who's interested in this concept they should read a paper published by the Australasian Ornithologists Union, the paper is written by Dr Alan Kemp, Dept of Birds, Transvaal Museum, S.A , it is titled "The Sustainable Utilisation of Birds". Fascinating reading about how a tribe from the Kruger National Park took eggs from nests of African Hawk Eagles, Milky Eagle Owls and Southern Ground Hornbills, at a stage when the adult birds would recycle and lay a replacement clutch. The Makuleke tribe were then paid to hatch, rear and release the birds which provided revenue for the community.
I made contact with Dr Kemp and he said he had seen no reason why the project could not have become commercial but there were people amongst the scientific groups that were not happy about that happening, there was no logically scientific reason why there could not be commercial sustainable use of wildlife.
I wouldn't like to see wild birds traded on the open market here but I do think that particularly with Golden Eagles there is potential to manage the population better. I dont agree with the attitude of "that's nature, leave it alone", man has made a pretty good job of screwing up the planet in a way that the future for a lot of our wildlife needs to be more closely managed !

[Dougie Mc]

why be so negative ( spelling is no good) the rspb are not the law makers mabye the hawk board and the big clubs should start to get there act together, it would be one way to bring on side the sporting estates and help protect your native raptors

Hybred

[MickeyDredd]

why be so negative ( spelling is no good) the rspb are not the law makers mabye the hawk board and the big clubs should start to get there act together, it would be one way to bring on side the sporting estates and help protect your native raptors

Hybred

The negativity is being shown by those of us who have witnessed first hand the attitude towards such ideas, honestly Doug they point blank refuse to consider any such moves.

The Hawk board and clubs would have no leverage either in my opinion, but I'm happy for you or anyone to approach them.....just prepare to be disappointed thats all.

Mike

[Chicquera]

why be so negative ( spelling is no good) the rspb are not the law makers mabye the hawk board and the big clubs should start to get there act together, it would be one way to bring on side the sporting estates and help protect your native raptors

Hybred

Markets are already flooded, Eagle breeders here are throwing eggs away because the market is just not there for them, or at least the right market !

[MickeyDredd]

http://news.scotsman.com/scotland.cfm?id=1287392007

Article about the sea eagle release in scotland then below an update on the poisoned Goldie report. The RSPB have upped their reward to £4k.... :lol: :lol:

post edited.

[Dougie Mc]

The rspb have increased the offer but the money isint coming from them ,they have other sponcers who wish to remane nameless

Hybred

[MickeyDredd]

The rspb have increased the offer but the money isint coming from them ,they have other sponcers who wish to remane nameless

Hybred

Apologies, i misread the article. It is RSPB members.

[Alan G]

The rspb have increased the offer but the money isint coming from them ,they have other sponcers who wish to remane nameless

Hybred

Does it really matter where they got the money from (i know they waste silly money on some of the studies they carry out), main thing is they have upped the reward & as MickeyD says.

Maybe there has been some pressure put on them, seeing as the IFF & Members have got good publicity over this and the fact that the falconry community has banded together in support of this travesty.

The main thing is there is now the best part of £7000 on offer for someone to grass on the guilty party/parties.

[DanasArt]

Markets are already flooded, Eagle breeders here are throwing eggs away because the market is just not there for them, or at least the right market !

That's disgusting.:x

[DanasArt]

http://news.scotsman.com/scotland.cfm?id=1287392007

Article about the sea eagle release in scotland then below an update on the poisoned Goldie report. The RSPB have upped their reward to £4k.... :lol: :lol:

post edited.

Yeah!:supz:

[DanasArt]

Does it really matter where they got the money from (i know they waste silly money on some of the studies they carry out), main thing is they have upped the reward & as MickeyD says.

Maybe there has been some pressure put on them, seeing as the IFF & Members have got good publicity over this and the fact that the falconry community has banded together in support of this travesty.

The main thing is there is now the best part of £7000 on offer for someone to grass on the guilty party/parties.


I agree. It does not really matter where the money comes from. It just adds to the motivation to get this person or persons brought to justice.

[Chicquera]

Does it really matter where they got the money from (i know they waste silly money on some of the studies they carry out), main thing is they have upped the reward & as MickeyD says.

Maybe there has been some pressure put on them, seeing as the IFF & Members have got good publicity over this and the fact that the falconry community has banded together in support of this travesty.

The main thing is there is now the best part of £7000 on offer for someone to grass on the guilty party/parties.

Yes, this isn't a competition, the RSPB have the funds to make it £50k if they wanted to, the point is that the IFF members have stood up to be counted and added a large amount of funds to the reward, that's what's important and I'm very proud of that fact ! :-D

[Alan G]

Yes, this isn't a competition, the RSPB have the funds to make it £50k if they wanted to, the point is that the IFF members have stood up to be counted and added a large amount of funds to the reward, that's what's important and I'm very proud of that fact ! :-D

Here, Here!

Well commented.

[FTPCharlie]

Does it really matter where they got the money from (i know they waste silly money on some of the studies they carry out), main thing is they have upped the reward & as MickeyD says.

Maybe there has been some pressure put on them, seeing as the IFF & Members have got good publicity over this and the fact that the falconry community has banded together in support of this travesty.

The main thing is there is now the best part of £7000 on offer for someone to grass on the guilty party/parties.

I'm absolutely amazed, this is brilliant. I feel proud to be part of an initiative that has been organized by such genuinely caring, interested and well informed members of the public. It is very refreshing to hear people support a cause passionately and eloquently rather than just jumping on the nearest band-wagon and embarrassing the cause by talking rubbish!

I pledge £10, wish I could do more.

Charlie x:D

[Alan G]

I'm absolutely amazed, this is brilliant. I feel proud to be part of an initiative that has been organized by such genuinely caring, interested and well informed members of the public. It is very refreshing to hear people support a cause passionately and eloquently rather than just jumping on the nearest band-wagon and embarrassing the cause by talking rubbish!

I pledge £10, wish I could do more.

Charlie x:D

You are doing well pledging £10. It is everyone pledging that has made the figure to date, but as it was said earlier, if everyone donated £5 or £10, the the pot would be huge.

The members on here have really shone on this one, well done everyone. :supz:

[Berkut]

That's disgusting.:x

Dana,
It is not what you think. Most of these eagles are bred by AI. Rather than fertilise all the eggs and be stuck with the youngsters or be tempted to reduce the price and sell them to the wrong people, they only fertilise enough eggs to meet their chosen buyers.The remaining eggs are discarded in one way or another.
Regards,
Neil.

[MickeyDredd]

Dana,
It is not what you think. Most of these eagles are bred by AI. Rather than fertilise all the eggs and be stuck with the youngsters or be tempted to reduce the price and sell them to the wrong people, they only fertilise enough eggs to meet their chosen buyers.The remaining eggs are discarded in one way or another.
Regards,
Neil.

Could the surplus not be released in the Scottish Borders?? ;) :D

[Martyn]

Just read this thread, ******* , put me down for £25

[Chicquera]

Could the surplus not be released in the Scottish Borders?? ;) :D

The problem is most are from Russian stock. If Defra / Doe had allowed a wild take here in the past these small number of eagle breeders could be supplying birds for release by now ! :roll:

[Hawkmaster]

UPDATE: I have been asked to do an interview for the local radio station Palm.FM

£2895 Raised so far!:supz:

[Dougie Mc]

The problem is most are from Russian stock. If Defra / Doe had allowed a wild take here in the past these small number of eagle breeders could be supplying birds for release by now ! :roll:[/QUOTE]

quite agree them mabye the sporting estates would get something out of it for things to work everybody has to get something

Hybred

[Sparrie]

Hope they catch the bas*ards soon before they do it again.

I'll pledge £20. how do I pass the money on.

Gary

[Chicquera]

The problem is most are from Russian stock. If Defra / Doe had allowed a wild take here in the past these small number of eagle breeders could be supplying birds for release by now ! :roll:

quite agree them mabye the sporting estates would get something out of it for things to work everybody has to get something

Hybred[/QUOTE]

Do you understand the laws relating to the sale of Annex / Appendix I birds ? Surely you cant be serious ? A wild take to establish a captive bred population that can be used for re-introduction programmes is one thing but flogging off wildlife to give someone an incentive not to break the law is crazy !!! :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[LanczSpringer]

Just seen this!

I did think it was stange how it was found on the 12th, grouse season kicking off an all!

I think there has been some studies into using goldies on the moors to act as a deterant to the harriers which do have an impact on the grouse numbers!

So to this doesnt all fit together in my eyes!

I pledge £85 to make the total upto £3k :supz:

[Wingless]

Just seen this!

I did think it was stange how it was found on the 12th, grouse season kicking off an all!

I think there has been some studies into using goldies on the moors to act as a deterant to the harriers which do have an impact on the grouse numbers!

So to this doesnt all fit together in my eyes!

I pledge £85 to make the total upto £3k :supz:

Goldies don't have a big effect on actual grouse numbers but they can push grouse off of the drives, which is why some keepers don't like them around.

[Ned]

Never mind Utube, I think Pauls talking to Warner Bros....."IFF - The Movie" !!
I'd heard they'd approached Vinny Jones to play Berkut !!:lol:

think vinnys just a little taller than berkut:lol: :lol:

[LanczSpringer]

Goldies don't have a big effect on actual grouse numbers but they can push grouse off of the drives, which is why some keepers don't like them around.

I know they don't although the harriers do!
The study was using goldies to deter the harriers can effect the young developing grouse!

Looking at some of the media we need to be use that we are not blaming all keepers as the majority are law abiding and wouldn't do anything like poisoning animals or birds!

As always it the minority that usually tar the law abiding with the same brush!

[Chicquera]

think vinnys just a little taller than berkut:lol: :lol:

AND a bit better looking !!! :wink:

[Phoenix1]

only one word for the person or persons involved with this " b@???!!***rds"
hanging would be to nice for them . the annoying bit about it is the reward by the rspb/rpsca is such a small reward for such a magnificent animal,may be as a forum we could donate something towards the reward ? say a £5.00 each the amount would soon add up. but at the end of the day the person caught is likely to be kept from owning animals for 6 month if we are lucky, why arnt the rspca ~ rspb like the animal police in the usa with full police powers . going to finish now before i start throwing my toys about .
regards
mick
e.s.o.f volunteer

[Dougie Mc]

[A wild take to establish a captive bred population that can be used for re-introduction programmes is one thing but flogging off wildlife to give someone an incentive not to break the law is crazy !!! :rolleyes: :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

snh do it with the geese on the west coast farmers are paid to let them graze and then there is people paid to move them on grass is acash crop for them so they are getting paid not to break the law , and any way where have i said they should break the law man has managed or mis managed the countryside from the beggining so why should wildlife not be managed in the same way they would have to get all the relivent paper work from the goverment , buy your statement its ok if they go to a breeding program for a reintroduction nearly the same papre work

Hybred

and yes i do know the laws but laws can be changed but of course it might not suit some mabye you!

[Ned]

AND a bit better looking !!! :wink:

correct:yawinkle: :supz:

[Wingless]

Looking at some of the media we need to be use that we are not blaming all keepers as the majority are law abiding and wouldn't do anything like poisoning animals or birds!

As always it the minority that usually tar the law abiding with the same brush!

The goldies deterring harrier breeding is interesting and makes sense. I wasn't having a go at you, just pointing out that there is a reason a keeper may want to get rid of a goldie, for anyone who didn't know. It's totally unjustifiable to kill one for whatever reason and i agree, it's very wrong to tar all keepers with the same brush.

Cheers
Robbie

[MickeyDredd]

Just seen this!

I did think it was stange how it was found on the 12th, grouse season kicking off an all!



I was told it was found last Tuesday, which I think was the 7th and only announced on the 12th, if so I wonder why?????

[Wingless]

I was told it was found last Tuesday, which I think was the 7th and only announced on the 12th, if so I wonder why?????

... publicity, donations, membership numbers, generating animosity and personal agendas :evil:

[MickeyDredd]

... publicity, donations, membership numbers, generating animosity and personal agendas :evil:

Shouldnt it be a police matter though and not at the behest of a charitable organisation when such an announcement should be made??? :rolleyes:

[Dougie Mc]

I belive it would take a couple of days for the results to come through , it was the tuesday it was found

[Chicquera]

only one word for the person or persons involved with this " b@???!!***rds"
hanging would be to nice for them . the annoying bit about it is the reward by the rspb/rpsca is such a small reward for such a magnificent animal,may be as a forum we could donate something towards the reward ? say a £5.00 each the amount would soon add up. but at the end of the day the person caught is likely to be kept from owning animals for 6 month if we are lucky, why arnt the rspca ~ rspb like the animal police in the usa with full police powers . going to finish now before i start throwing my toys about .
regards
mick
e.s.o.f volunteer

Good thinking, only problem is your £3000 too late !!:lol:

[Chicquera]

[A wild take to establish a captive bred population that can be used for re-introduction programmes is one thing but flogging off wildlife to give someone an incentive not to break the law is crazy !!! :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

snh do it with the geese on the west coast farmers are paid to let them graze and then there is people paid to move them on grass is acash crop for them so they are getting paid not to break the law , and any way where have i said they should break the law man has managed or mis managed the countryside from the beggining so why should wildlife not be managed in the same way they would have to get all the relivent paper work from the goverment , buy your statement its ok if they go to a breeding program for a reintroduction nearly the same papre work

Hybred

and yes i do know the laws but laws can be changed but of course it might not suit some mabye you![/QUOTE]

Sorry Hybred, I'm sure you mean well but I dont think you understand CITES or any of the EU Directives relating to the protection of birds.
By the way, as far as I can remember the only geese that are protected are Greenland White Fronts and Barnacles !

[Wingless]

I'm not in the UK at the moment so don't have access to everything that is being published, does anyone know under what circumstances the bird was found and by who?

[Mark Robb]

The amout of keepers raided in scotland lately by the N W C unit and the R S P B in an attempt to justify a staggering 3.5 million pounds worth of wild life crime .The N W C unit and the RSPB say is turned over every year. You havent stopped to think it might have bean put there yo generate there existence . Some one hasto make crimes happen , if there was no crimes DEFRA would start by asking for its 200 thousand back it give to the N W C unit last yesr and that would be counter productive

[Wingless]

http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=270&id=1134422006

A similar thing was announced at the same time last year, im sure many will remember. (although the scotsmans article has a picture of a tawny eagle:rolleyes: ) The birds featured in the above article were actually found dead in may and june.

[Pendleside]

The amout of keepers raided in scotland lately by the N W C unit and the R S P B in an attempt to justify a staggering 3.5 million pounds worth of wild life crime .The N W C unit and the RSPB say is turned over every year. You havent stopped to think it might have bean put there yo generate there existence . Some one hasto make crimes happen , if there was no crimes DEFRA would start by asking for its 200 thousand back it give to the N W C unit last yesr and that would be counter productive

does anyone know how many convictions the £3.5 million actually accounted for ?
that would make interesting reading .

[Tarqers]

more than likley a biproduct of the hunting ban!---tarqs

[Chicquera]

It seems like just about anything that happens nowadays triggers off a conspiracy theory, 9/11, Diana, Iraq, etc !
Maybe we'll never get to know the truth but at least the falconry community has spoken and shown everyone that they care about wild raptor populations too !

[Mark Robb]

It not alot when you consider peregrins are about 100 thousand each soon ads up

[Tarqers]

interesting therory concidering we go to great legths, the keep raptors in a state further from the wild that is physically possible,think again before you care for us all----tarqs

[Hawkmaster]

UPDATE:£3025 and thanks to all that have pledge so generously!:supz:

[KiteTrainer]

I was told it was found last Tuesday, which I think was the 7th and only announced on the 12th, if so I wonder why?????

I think that is when the Multi Agency operation was carried out

[KiteTrainer]

The amout of keepers raided in scotland lately by the N W C unit and the R S P B in an attempt to justify a staggering 3.5 million pounds worth of wild life crime .The N W C unit and the RSPB say is turned over every year. You havent stopped to think it might have bean put there yo generate there existence . Some one hasto make crimes happen , if there was no crimes DEFRA would start by asking for its 200 thousand back it give to the N W C unit last yesr and that would be counter productive

Everybody likes a conspiracy theory, my own opinion is that in this instance they are a lot of ****. The bird was found and the operation was found earlier and the operation was carried out on 12th.
I have contact with a lot of the shooting fraternity and I get the impression that they think the enemy is within,

[Rabbit Killer]

The rspb have increased the offer but the money isint coming from them ,they have other sponcers who wish to remane nameless

Hybred

I find that rather strange that the RSPB have upped their offer, I made mention of their pathetic response and reward many posts ago and with all the media attention I just wonder if they have been shamed into increasing that reward into something more like reality.

There have been some very interesting posts and theories since I've just come in from work and logged on, however I have my own views on this matter and who is most probably responsible, but bearing in mind this forum is viewed world wide and for fear of been sued I'll keep my opinion to my self.

What I will say is this, I dont think the Goldie was ever intended to be the target. Poison does not discriminate and I think its just very unfortunate that the Goldie has fallen victim to what was probably another target !!!

Nevertheless, using poison in an open situation for killing wildlife is unacceptable in this day and age, and furthermore tests have apparently shown it was carbofuran, a banned substance which is illegal in any circumstance.

[Hawkmaster]

UPDATE: Off to do a local Radio interview now and we are up to £3125:supz:

[Chicquera]

I informed both JNCC and Defra as to the effort being made by the IFF to add to the reward fund and have just had a "Well done" reply from John Hounslow, head of Wildlife Licensing at Defra.
I hope everyone understands the importance of that recognition !

[Mr_Colin]

just managed to find the time to read through everything and can only re-enforce the views of everyone that this is a dispicable thing to do to such a majestic animal. Poisening is such a horrible act.

I would also like to pledge 25 quid to the fun and only wish I could add more. Personally I would like to go to scotland to help investigate but know this would be impossible.

As an IFF committee member can I just say how heart warming it is to know that once again our members have pulled together and showed the world that falconers care about our wild raptor populations. Well done to everyone.:supz:

Colin

[Laggan]

Just come out of hospital today. Whenever I log-in the 'Eagle' section is my first port of call and I have been horrified to learn about this - a pretty crappy welcome back to the World. You have £50 from me.

[Gerry4292]

I have just re-read this thread and would like to say how very PROUD i am of being a member of the IFF,we are showing the world that little people like us can make a huge difference to what happens in the world.
Keep up the good work people.

[Redeye]

Stick me down for a tenner, and personally I congratulate the rspb for raising its pledge to £4k.

[KiteTrainer]

Stick me down for a tenner, and personally I congratulate the rspb for raising its pledge to £4k.

Together that makes it a worthwhile reward

[Hawkmaster]

UPDATE: £3210:supz:

[Alan G]

UPDATE: £3210:supz:

Paul, how did you interviews go?

Has it been broadcast yet?

Anyone going to post a link to it here?

[Hawkmaster]

Yes mate they went well and I have so far only heard one, but yes all good!:lol:

[Hawkmaster]

UPDATE: Just spoke to Craig Jackson from the Scottish edition of the News of the World and he says he would be happy to push the story for us and help in anyway he can.

In a week or two he would like to have an article written on the Eagles flown in Scotland by some of our members!:supz:

[Mr_Colin]

Stick me down for a tenner, and personally I congratulate the rspb for raising its pledge to £4k.

I know it's not the point but I bet we beat that as well

[Chicquera]

UPDATE: Just spoke to Craig Jackson from the Scottish edition of the News of the World and he says he would be happy to push the story for us and help in anyway he can.

In a week or two he would like to have an article written on the Eagles flown in Scotland by some of our members!:supz:

Great but be careful, I've still got a copy of the David Kent article somewhere, we dont need another one like that !! This was an article that was done by News of the World back in the 80's, colour photo in the snow with David Kents eagle bound to a deers head, blood everywhere and David Kent just about it stick a dagger in the poor deer.
Hope we've gone past things like that these days !!!

[Golden Hayabusa]

That's disgusting News....:evil:
We got to do stop this stupid poisons being manifuctured & spread over all worldwide...otherwise, there is no solution. Natural protected birds dies...your bird dies.... many of birds will dies...therefore, much insects and pests will be over the crops... then they'll put more poisons over everywhere! and in natural habitats broken by hands of human activities. i do understand we need pesticides over crops but there got to be other way to handle this. Well, now we do know what was the poison made for and where it's comming from all we need is replace this toxic substanses out of manifucturing rings and choose & promote better healther alternative way for the human consumption and for the nature and your birds. I hope some of you guys have any better ideas since this problems became appeared so clear to us.
They are FMC Corporation and Curater, among several others.
:ctf: :impact: :enforcer:
and convince them to stop making them and "change" thier way. otherwise this problems will get much bigger and it's gonna be too late. Really, it's late already. It's Time to make a change Fast. and since enviromental concious people are everywhere and We do have a clear reason that one of top of food chain bird died by this poisons. it is very good time to bring up this problem to over enviromentaly conscious people all over the worlds. this is not just for our birds only...this problem might be much deeper it will be if you let it . look at doseage level to be get killed by this poison.. Oral LD50: Rats 8–14 mg/kg, Dogs 19 mg/kg. even lesser levels of this poison will be too dangerous to humans and or even to your famillies and babies. can you imagine your kids gonna be born with deformed body? or might be alternate your thinking and behavior in daily lifes? hey! the familly is fighting!! look at that! that's we see sometime or experienced in house..every mother is feed you good i hope well, trys ... or even your fater work hard for your familly or now a days cooks you a meal and thinking you all grow better... brought you a great dinner and great vegetables on a table.....then it's becomes.....this isn't a joke anymore!!
the U.S. goverments are now is planning to switch Soy bean base fuels to replace and it's solutions for our current oil crisis now. i'm grad something moving...You all know that, If they make more crops for those Soy bean based vehicles and sold to all over the worlds.... It's needs much more of this poisons to spread out... even to the oceans!!! you'll know everybodythinks this is great ! it's soy based vehicle!! yeah...it might..and then this car will be all over...may be 50years more or so...just as Gasoline engines.... i have 1978 gas gazzle engines still working you see?. then they need huge area of crops and this poisons. Yes. We can think deeper... you know that's gonna possible to be ignored just as gasoline engines and will over 100years nores to go....Do you start to see the pictures? This isn't a JOKE. If we don't stop them right now. this is going to be worst nightmare of our time. Otherwise it will be to late to back it up. . It's time for us to act on this matter, we have act on it NOW & very Quick as our hawlks. they gaved us a bieutifule examples with thier life introduced and shown us a what is circle of lifes and we are one with the natures.... and funs and be with natures over times with us .....even over centries!!! but they don't have any voices over on this matter at all. Do you know what that's mean? It is our turns to do them a favor for real. Gentlemans , Ladies.....WE REALLY GOT TO DO THIS.
Our "objectives" = Taget..the enermy is clear as crystal. we aren't making a war or killing somebody..we just have to change of the way how the this little thing is a actually a big signs of NO. you know what DDT did. we couldn't stoped it. we saw the results all over the news. see in a human babies, fish, Hawks,birds, four legged animals, you name it! we knew that. I'm not against U.S. goverments or manifuctures or i'm not a terrolists for this matters. i'm just saying that this systems isn't working at all and we got to change the how we do to live. especially, chemicals with big huge cooperations with billions of Moneys involved and large companies connections and many farmers with goverments politician officials connections... the science showed the true results of this matter. our special birds are protected in laws all over the world... it's top of animal food chains. Hey, who is real top of food chains? It's us. We are killing nature and killing US each other!!

It's "FMC Corporation and Curater, among several others." <<< It's the RATS...
well, the company people isn't. the company decisions yes. this is matter of creating safe enviromental alternative pesticides that's all. all we got to do is show the real scientific result based on this true nature science reports take it to the top of top..corporations and make them rethink better alternative way. No one get's hurt. Everybody will be happy. even cooperation peoples. they may be just don't know or can't change it because of daily work situations and office automated 9-5 office job don't have any clue to chage what's going on. we got to wake them up. and get scientists to create new enviromentaly safe pesticides or use or back to the natural ways of growing crop methods. I noticed this from fishing at saw the twisted spinal bone fish floting on the water when i was a kid...shame... but it was in my country super high tech country call Japan Tokyo. i couldn't do anything about it. i couldn't. i was a kid in a river. times passed by i grow up. probably your countries still have a spaces to pollute a bit... and you don't care or won't do anything... i don't think you are not at all. i think we are full capable of changing this situation easy. i think we can do it at onece at least this matter alone and it's starts from there...

I would like to see our Best of the Best efforts on this conflicted situations currently happening all over the worlds causing biggest messes and it will be unimaginable to next generations or even entire lifes on our only planet call "Mother Earth"
I need Your HELP . Our true, only Mother planet in this biggest ocean of space is dying. and i don't think leaving this planet in my lifetime just yet. and this isn't a joke whatsoever.
Guys.... Let's take out this real "M*ther F***ers". We got to face ourselfs. We knew better than yesterday we aren't same as any of us anymore... Right now, We are awaken... We can change this.
Let's Roll. this is my message send to you by my wings. I'm just a messenger .
Thank you for reading. That's all I have to say .


Carbofuran is one of the most toxic carbamate pesticides. It is marketed under the trade names Furadan, by FMC Corporation and Curater, among several others. It is used to control insects in a wide variety of field crops, including potatoes, corn and soybeans. It is a systemic insecticide, which means that the plant absorbs it through the roots, and from here the plant distributes it throughout its organs (mainly vessels, stems and leaves; not the fruits), where insecticidal concentrations are attained. Carbofuran also has contact activity against pests.

It has one of the highest acute toxicities to humans of any insecticide widely used on field crops (more toxic are only aldicarb and parathion). A quarter teaspoon ( 1 mL) can be fatal. Most carbofuran is applied by commercial applicators using closed systems with engineered controls, so that there is no exposure to the chemical through pouring or measuring. Toxic effects are due to its activity as a cholinesterase inhibitor (it is thus considered a neurotoxic pesticide).

Carbofuran is also known to be highly toxic to birds. In its granular form, a single grain will kill a bird. Birds often eat numerous grains of the pesticide, mistaking them for seeds, and then die shortly thereafter. Before it was banned by USEPA in 1991 ([1]), granular carbofuran was blamed for millions of bird deaths per year. The liquid version of the pesticide is less hazardous to birds since they are not as likely to ingest it directly, but it is still very hazardous.

Carbofuran usage has increased in recent years because it is one of the few insecticides effective on soybean aphids, which have expanded their range since 2002 to include most soybean-growing regions of the U.S.

The technical or chemical name of carbofuran is 2,3-dihydro-2,2-dimethyl-7-benzofuranyl methylcarbamate and its CAS number is 1563-66-2 and it is manufactured by reaction of methyl isocyanate with 2,3-dihydro-2,2-dimethyl-7-hydroxybenzofuran.

Oral LD50: Rats 8–14 mg/kg, Dogs 19 mg/kg.

[TLDWB]

I wasn't aware just how deadly carbofuran is, this is very worrying that people of a certain mind set are capable of getting there hands on such a dangerous chemical.

Tom

[Finnish]

Just read this thread been away for a few weeks. Can't belive it. Put me down for £25.00 Paul..http://www.falconryforum.co.uk/images/smilies/icon_evil.gif

[Alan G]

Reward Update


£10K TO CATCH EAGLE'S KILLER

23 August 2007
£10K TO CATCH EAGLE'S KILLER
Reward soaring
By Bob Dow
SICKENED bird lovers are donating thousands of pounds to help catch the culprit who poisoned a golden eagle.

Enthusiasts have already contributed £10,000 as the probe into the iconic bird's death last week continues.

Millionaire businessman Paul Dickens is among those who have donated cash to help catch the callous killer.

The initial £1000 reward put up by the RSPB is now 10 times that amount.

The 10-year-old female eagle was one half of the only breeding pair of golden eagles in the Borders area.

The National Wildlife Crime Unit revealed the bird was poisoned with the banned substance carbofuran.


James Reynolds, of the RSPB, said: "It shows how much the public care about this situation."


http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/news/tm_method=full%26objectID=19675194%26siteID=66633-name_page.html

[Harrisii]

greed is a huge pull and lets hope it triggers osmeone to come forward with information and we can find out exactly whats going on.

i just hope the cul;prit see's this irticle and is shittin his pants.

the people have spoken.

[Pendleside]

no mention of the i.f.f. who initially made the reward into a substantial figure .
oh well .:roll:

[Goldie]

no mention of the i.f.f. who initially made the reward into a substantial figure .
oh well .:roll:

Yeah and they mention a millionaire. Whatever he contributed was probably no more than loose change. Bearing in mind that the figure was close to £8000 a week ago. Plenty of people on this forum pledging a tenner would be more of a hardship.
Bottom line tho is that it all counts and whatever he put up its very welcome.
I have no doubt in my mind, that if we had not stuck our oar in and got involved in the first place, :supz: the "Reward" would still be a paltry £1000 put up by the RSPB

[Nyx]

Write up about IFF reward on page 2 of Cage and Aviary today.

[Pendleside]

is there a link or could you scan and post it ?

[MickeyDredd]

or could you scan and post it ?

thats illegal Pete. ;)

[Nyx]

computer illiterate but will see what i can do!!!!

On the same page there is also a small piece about illegal poisonings being on the increase and RSPB v. Scottish Gamekeepers Assoc over who might be to blame!!

[Nyx]

Cage & Aviary Birds, August 23rd 2007.

"Falconers disgusted by the dleiberate poisoning of a Golden Eagle on the grouse moors of Scotland have pledged a substantial reward for information leading to the arrest of those responsible.

Members of the International Falconry Forum (IFF), an online group of falconers from around the world, have raised more than £3000 as a reward for information leading to a conviction. This is in addition to the £1000 pledged by RSPB Scotland.

IFF website owner Paul Hill said "People were outraged that the penalty for this crime was so small and the RSPB had only put up £1000. Our members got together and the total is now over £3000 and rising."

Much of the anger displayed on the website, which has more than 6000 members, is aimed at what the forum participants consider an insufficient punishment for the crime.

"One member has pledged £500 if the culprit gets more than four years", said Mr Hill, "but the maximum sentence is only six months or a fine of up to £5000."

The protected bird was half of the only breeding pair in the Scottish Borders. It was found dead on August 12, which is the start of the grouse season. Tests revealed it had been poisoned with bait laced with the banned substance carbofuron. THe pair has been together for about ten years and had a semi-dependent chick. Since both parents are usually requried to sustain young eagles, experts fear it may not survive.

The pair os known to have reared a number of chicks in previous years, but some suspect they may have met the same fate.

A joint investigation into the crime was launched by Lothian and Borders Police, RSPB Scotland, the Scottish SPA and the Scottish Executive.

Mike Flynn, Chief Superintendent of the Scottish SPCA, said "The Scottish Borders has seen too many incidents involving the illegal poisoning of birds of prey in the past few years and iti s important that anyone with information comes forward."



The International Falconry Forum is at www.falconryforum.co.uk
If you have information about the poisoning contact PC Mark Rafferty. Tel 07785 248 455

[MickeyDredd]

Thanks Nyx.

pretty good article really! :supz:

[Pendleside]

credit where its due ,and not spun in a different direction .:supz:

[Golden Hayabusa]

STOP! Productions of Carbofuran & DDT !!! (Its Original chemical name, Dichloro-Diphenyl-Trichloroethane)
:ctf2:

:gib:
Then are should no be a long lasting Poisons on this planet!!!
:plasma:
Make it out of reach from those hands of Dangerous Freaks!!!

Make it they needs to Registered or licenced to handle those POISON!!!
:rock:
Promote & Create a Nature safe substances!!!

Protect the Mother Natures and Human babys!!

Protect your birds!!

[PaulWar3]

Has anyone heard how the juvenile eagle is getting on, and is the male still around looking after it?

Paul

[JupeSingh]

Hi,

Just wanted to let the forum know that I just left a message for PC Mark Rafferty, at the behest of a small Slough-based community group, which has offered £300 directly towards the reward monies. The below press release has also been sent-out to the local rags/broadcast media:

"
START

23/8/2007

£300 Reward offered by Slough Sikh Community sickened by poisoning of a rare Golden Eagle in Scotland

Members of *SCAN, a local community-group, were sickened to hear that a rare Golden Eagle, one of Britain's largest and most majestic birds of prey, was recently poisoned to death in Scotland.

Atma Singh, a member of SCAN, heard about the news on The International Falconry Forum, an online forum with over 6000 members worldwide:

"As Sikhs, we are taught that respecting and caring for animals is of fundamental importance. This story especially drew our interest due to the fact that the bird killed was half of the only breeding pair in that area and so the person responsible for this crime has caused immense damage to Britain's natural heritage. This cannot be tolerated.

Furthermore, whereas today the tradition of falconry, where a bird of prey and it's handler form a remarkable and fascinating relationship, is not commonly maintained by Sikhs, historically it was practised by Sikhs and even more famously by their Gurus (Spiritual Leaders/Prophets). Guru Gobind Singh Jee, the 10th Guru of the Sikhs, is still to this day depicted in portraits with His prized white Gyrfalcon perched upon His wrist. Therefore, Sikhs have naturally always had a profound respect for and special affinity with birds of prey".

The reward has been offered according to the follwing conditions:

£300 to be rewarded by SCAN to the first individual whose supply of information leads to, or contributes to, the initiation of a prosecution case, regardless of whether that prosecution case is successful or unsuccessful.

If a prosecution case is not initiated before 1/9/2008, and furthermore, if after 1/9/2008 a prosecution case is not likely to be initiated in 'the forseeable future' in the opinion of Lothian and Borders Police, then the reward money offered will be directly donated by SCAN to a conservation project/group whose work directly relates to the breeding and/or care of the wild UK-based Golden Eagle population.

-----

Notes to Editors:

- *SCAN (Sikh Community Action Network) is a grass-roots community group which promotes Sikh ideals and as such supports and initiates projects which benefit the local community through the promotion of equality, social justice and environmental well-being. This is in keeping with a central concept of the Sikh spiritual philosophy - 'Sarbat da Bhalla' (Well-being of One and All).

- International Falconry Forum - www.falconryforum.co.uk (http://www.falconryforum.co.uk)

- Investigation being co-ordinated by: Lothian & Borders Police - PC Mark Rafferty - 07785 248 455

- Total reward monies now total approx. £8,000.

Contact: Atma Singh - 07738 419 407 / atmasinghjee@yahoo.co.uk


END

[Pendleside]

:supz: :supz:
well done .

[TLDWB]

Hi,

Just wanted to let the forum know that I just left a message for PC Mark Rafferty, at the behest of a small Slough-based community group, which has offered £300 directly towards the reward monies. The below press release has also been sent-out to the local rags/broadcast media:

"
START

23/8/2007

£300 Reward offered by Slough Sikh Community sickened by poisoning of a rare Golden Eagle in Scotland

Members of *SCAN, a local community-group, were sickened to hear that a rare Golden Eagle, one of Britain's largest and most majestic birds of prey, was recently poisoned to death in Scotland.

Atma Singh, a member of SCAN, heard about the news on The International Falconry Forum, an online forum with over 6000 members worldwide:

"As Sikhs, we are taught that respecting and caring for animals is of fundamental importance. This story especially drew our interest due to the fact that the bird killed was half of the only breeding pair in that area and so the person responsible for this crime has caused immense damage to Britain's natural heritage. This cannot be tolerated.

Furthermore, whereas today the tradition of falconry, where a bird of prey and it's handler form a remarkable and fascinating relationship, is not commonly maintained by Sikhs, historically it was practised by Sikhs and even more famously by their Gurus (Spiritual Leaders/Prophets). Guru Gobind Singh Jee, the 10th Guru of the Sikhs, is still to this day depicted in portraits with His prized white Gyrfalcon perched upon His wrist. Therefore, Sikhs have naturally always had a profound respect for and special affinity with birds of prey".

The reward has been offered according to the follwing conditions:

£300 to be rewarded by SCAN to the first individual whose supply of information leads to, or contributes to, the initiation of a prosecution case, regardless of whether that prosecution case is successful or unsuccessful.

If a prosecution case is not initiated before 1/9/2008, and furthermore, if after 1/9/2008 a prosecution case is not likely to be initiated in 'the forseeable future' in the opinion of Lothian and Borders Police, then the reward money offered will be directly donated by SCAN to a conservation project/group whose work directly relates to the breeding and/or care of the wild UK-based Golden Eagle population.

-----

Notes to Editors:

- *SCAN (Sikh Community Action Network) is a grass-roots community group which promotes Sikh ideals and as such supports and initiates projects which benefit the local community through the promotion of equality, social justice and environmental well-being. This is in keeping with a central concept of the Sikh spiritual philosophy - 'Sarbat da Bhalla' (Well-being of One and All).

- International Falconry Forum - www.falconryforum.co.uk (http://www.falconryforum.co.uk)

- Investigation being co-ordinated by: Lothian & Borders Police - PC Mark Rafferty - 07785 248 455

- Total reward monies now total approx. £8,000.

Contact: Atma Singh - 07738 419 407 / atmasinghjee@yahoo.co.uk


END

Good stuff.:supz:

Tom

[HawkingSam]

http://planetsmilies.net/angry-smiley-8020.gif (http://planetsmilies.net) Why, what is the point, I hate the people who do this sort of thing. http://planetsmilies.net/angry-smiley-1367.gif (http://planetsmilies.net)
http://planetsmilies.net/angry-smiley-203.gif (http://planetsmilies.net)

[Hacker]

Hi,

Just wanted to let the forum know that I just left a message for PC Mark Rafferty, at the behest of a small Slough-based community group, which has offered £300 directly towards the reward monies. The below press release has also been sent-out to the local rags/broadcast media:

"
START

23/8/2007

£300 Reward offered by Slough Sikh Community sickened by poisoning of a rare Golden Eagle in Scotland

Members of *SCAN, a local community-group, were sickened to hear that a rare Golden Eagle, one of Britain's largest and most majestic birds of prey, was recently poisoned to death in Scotland.

Atma Singh, a member of SCAN, heard about the news on The International Falconry Forum, an online forum with over 6000 members worldwide:

"As Sikhs, we are taught that respecting and caring for animals is of fundamental importance. This story especially drew our interest due to the fact that the bird killed was half of the only breeding pair in that area and so the person responsible for this crime has caused immense damage to Britain's natural heritage. This cannot be tolerated.

Furthermore, whereas today the tradition of falconry, where a bird of prey and it's handler form a remarkable and fascinating relationship, is not commonly maintained by Sikhs, historically it was practised by Sikhs and even more famously by their Gurus (Spiritual Leaders/Prophets). Guru Gobind Singh Jee, the 10th Guru of the Sikhs, is still to this day depicted in portraits with His prized white Gyrfalcon perched upon His wrist. Therefore, Sikhs have naturally always had a profound respect for and special affinity with birds of prey".

The reward has been offered according to the follwing conditions:

£300 to be rewarded by SCAN to the first individual whose supply of information leads to, or contributes to, the initiation of a prosecution case, regardless of whether that prosecution case is successful or unsuccessful.

If a prosecution case is not initiated before 1/9/2008, and furthermore, if after 1/9/2008 a prosecution case is not likely to be initiated in 'the forseeable future' in the opinion of Lothian and Borders Police, then the reward money offered will be directly donated by SCAN to a conservation project/group whose work directly relates to the breeding and/or care of the wild UK-based Golden Eagle population.

-----

Notes to Editors:

- *SCAN (Sikh Community Action Network) is a grass-roots community group which promotes Sikh ideals and as such supports and initiates projects which benefit the local community through the promotion of equality, social justice and environmental well-being. This is in keeping with a central concept of the Sikh spiritual philosophy - 'Sarbat da Bhalla' (Well-being of One and All).

- International Falconry Forum - www.falconryforum.co.uk (http://www.falconryforum.co.uk)

- Investigation being co-ordinated by: Lothian & Borders Police - PC Mark Rafferty - 07785 248 455

- Total reward monies now total approx. £8,000.

Contact: Atma Singh - 07738 419 407 / atmasinghjee@yahoo.co.uk


END

Atma,
Please thank all the members of SCAN for this offer of help and well done to you too!!!!

[Hawkmaster]

thats illegal Pete. ;)
No it is not as long as it is not nore than 5% of the publication. Besides I am sure they would let us anyway. That is probably the best and most accurate article yet.
Hi,

Just wanted to let the forum know that I just left a message for PC Mark Rafferty, at the behest of a small Slough-based community group, which has offered £300 directly towards the reward monies. The below press release has also been sent-out to the local rags/broadcast media:

"
START

23/8/2007

£300 Reward offered by Slough Sikh Community sickened by poisoning of a rare Golden Eagle in Scotland

Members of *SCAN, a local community-group, were sickened to hear that a rare Golden Eagle, one of Britain's largest and most majestic birds of prey, was recently poisoned to death in Scotland.

Atma Singh, a member of SCAN, heard about the news on The International Falconry Forum, an online forum with over 6000 members worldwide:

"As Sikhs, we are taught that respecting and caring for animals is of fundamental importance. This story especially drew our interest due to the fact that the bird killed was half of the only breeding pair in that area and so the person responsible for this crime has caused immense damage to Britain's natural heritage. This cannot be tolerated.

Furthermore, whereas today the tradition of falconry, where a bird of prey and it's handler form a remarkable and fascinating relationship, is not commonly maintained by Sikhs, historically it was practised by Sikhs and even more famously by their Gurus (Spiritual Leaders/Prophets). Guru Gobind Singh Jee, the 10th Guru of the Sikhs, is still to this day depicted in portraits with His prized white Gyrfalcon perched upon His wrist. Therefore, Sikhs have naturally always had a profound respect for and special affinity with birds of prey".

The reward has been offered according to the follwing conditions:

£300 to be rewarded by SCAN to the first individual whose supply of information leads to, or contributes to, the initiation of a prosecution case, regardless of whether that prosecution case is successful or unsuccessful.

If a prosecution case is not initiated before 1/9/2008, and furthermore, if after 1/9/2008 a prosecution case is not likely to be initiated in 'the forseeable future' in the opinion of Lothian and Borders Police, then the reward money offered will be directly donated by SCAN to a conservation project/group whose work directly relates to the breeding and/or care of the wild UK-based Golden Eagle population.

-----

Notes to Editors:

- *SCAN (Sikh Community Action Network) is a grass-roots community group which promotes Sikh ideals and as such supports and initiates projects which benefit the local community through the promotion of equality, social justice and environmental well-being. This is in keeping with a central concept of the Sikh spiritual philosophy - 'Sarbat da Bhalla' (Well-being of One and All).

- International Falconry Forum - www.falconryforum.co.uk (http://www.falconryforum.co.uk)

- Investigation being co-ordinated by: Lothian & Borders Police - PC Mark Rafferty - 07785 248 455

- Total reward monies now total approx. £8,000.

Contact: Atma Singh - 07738 419 407 / atmasinghjee@yahoo.co.uk


END
Excellent stuff well done!:supz:

[MickeyDredd]

No it is not as long as it is not nore than 5% of the publication. Besides I am sure they would let us anyway. That is probably the best and most accurate article yet.


Not true I'm afraid. It is against copyright (I think) law to photocopy items from publications and post it on the internet, even on your own website where it is an article referring to your company, unless you pay a general subscription of £150+ per year to do so. Websites are constantly checked by the relevent money-grabbing authorities to identify such cases, you then receive a demand to either pay up or no longer post such snippets on your website - had it done to a company I worked for.

unless of course you asked them and got permission to do so. presumably.;-)

[Hawkmaster]

OK sweet, it must be differnent then for teaching usage and personal, versus websites?:lol:

[Bron]

Taken from Scottish Countryside Alliance newsletter - for your interest



Persecution, and RSPB arrogance, must stop!

Responsible rural organisations, such as the SCA, condemn persecution of birds of prey and all crimes against wildlife, as do our members and supporters throughout Scotland. We also condemn attempts to turn an appalling incident, such as the Golden eagle found poisoned in Peeblesshire, into a witch-hunt against moorland owners and gamekeepers.



In this particular case, the owner of the land had quietly looked after this breeding pair of Golden eagles for the last 10 years. He was furious that someone had come onto his land to poison one of them. The estate owner, staff and neighbours had all known of the existence of Golden Eagles on the estate. They had deliberately kept the nest location secret to enable the eagles to breed in peace for a decade. It makes no sense to suggest that the eagle was killed by anyone connected with the estate or its neighbours. Yet, in the press release issued by RSPB, they made it appear as if the eagle had been killed to protect grouse, stimulating a media frenzy about grouse moors. Anyone familiar with grouse moor management knows that golden eagles pose little threat to grouse. This accusation demonstrates how little the RSPB understands of the practicalities of moor management, but because of the ongoing police investigation, the owner has not been able to defend himself in public.



The RSPB has clearly lost the trust of many people as a result of their incessant and irresponsible publicity, and that lack of trust is now a major part of the problem. The SCA will continue to support the police wholeheartedly in their efforts to stamp out poisoning. We ask our members to do likewise.



The Peeblesshire golden eagle poisoning has shown that the role of the RSPB must be clarified. Either they are advisors to the police, in which case they are governed by the same strict rules of accountability as the police - or, alternatively, they are a pressure group, like the League Against Cruel Sports or Advocates for Animals, who are free to make unsubstantiated allegations. There cannot be a fudge on this issue.



We would like to see legislation which encourages balanced protection of all species, rather than policies which promote imbalance by giving undue and unnatural protection to predator species. Unfortunately, the RSPB and others, have a narrow academic view of the world, far removed from the practical skills and experience required by any effective land or wildlife manager. Their mantra appears to be- 'once a protected species, always a protected species'. This flies in the face of commonsense and good practice. More to the point, it is severely damaging species diversity.



The RSPB should be looking to be natural allies of rural managers, and especially of gamekeepers. They should avoid making any unsubstantiated attack and, where there is good evidence that a crime may have taken place, they should do what the rest of us do - report it to the police. As Sheriff Kevin Drummond pointed out at the 2007 police wildlife conference at Tullieallan, there is nothing special about the RSPB. Their staff have no more access to police than does any other citizen of Scotland. It is surely time for the RSPB to drop their derisory attitude towards rural managers, and to join the national campaign to eradicate wildlife crime once and for all.



We can only repair damaged relationships and sort out this unnecessary impasse by working together in an atmosphere of mutual trust, and I have no doubt that the biggest winners from such collaboration will be Scotland's wildlife!

[Golden Hayabusa]

quote

We can only repair damaged relationships and sort out this unnecessary impasse by working together in an atmosphere of mutual trust, and I have no doubt that the biggest winners from such collaboration will be Scotland's wildlife!
__________________
If it's no fleas it's midges.



Great. that's all we need.

[Wingless]

Taken from Scottish Countryside Alliance newsletter - for your interest



Persecution, and RSPB arrogance, must stop! .............



The whole thing is brilliantly written, it's a shame it's published in the SCA newsletter and not somewhere for the wider public to read.

Robbie

[MusketMad]

The whole thing is brilliantly written, it's a shame it's published in the SCA newsletter and not somewhere for the wider public to read.

Robbieits a good job its in writing robbie otherwise i would need a translater..lol i can just about understand you:lol:

[Wingless]

its a good job its in writing robbie otherwise i would need a translater lol i can just about understand you:lol:

Away and make up some rhymes you cockney git :twisted: ;)

[Matthew Patching]

Any updates, and you can put me down for £25.

[Golden Hayabusa]

BBC news

You have got people saying what they would like to do to these people

Paul Hill
International Falconry Forum




Fresh appeal over eagle killing

The bird was one of the only breeding pair in the area
A fresh appeal has been made for the public to help trace the killer of a golden eagle in the Borders.
Crimestoppers Scotland has urged people to leave information about the incident near Peebles on its anonymous hotline.

The bird - one of the only breeding pair in the region - was found dead on 12 August and rewards have been offered for information about its death.

A spokesman for Crimestoppers said he hoped people might be more inclined to leave information anonymously.

"Crimestoppers Scotland is offering assistance to the agencies investigating the poisoning of this wildlife "treasure" because information will often only be received if it can be given anonymously," he said.

Even childrens able to joins on this hunt but Remenber....Safety's first.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> www.crimestoppersscotland.com :cool:

[Chicquera]

BBC news international


Last Updated: Tuesday, 21 August 2007, 08:29 GMT 09:29 UK



Fresh appeal over eagle killing

The bird was one of the only breeding pair in the area
A fresh appeal has been made for the public to help trace the killer of a golden eagle in the Borders.
Crimestoppers Scotland has urged people to leave information about the incident near Peebles on its anonymous hotline.

The bird - one of the only breeding pair in the region - was found dead on 12 August and rewards have been offered for information about its death.

A spokesman for Crimestoppers said he hoped people might be more inclined to leave information anonymously.

"Crimestoppers Scotland is offering assistance to the agencies investigating the poisoning of this wildlife "treasure" because information will often only be received if it can be given anonymously," he said.

www.crimestoppersscotland.com :cool:

What, with a £10000 reward up for grabs, I dont think so !!!!:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Barry]

Many of you will know about the sad demise of a my Verreaux Eagle a few years ago. For that reason this thread has been very close to the bone for me.

I'll not try to come up with a remedy or an attack on the culprits. I'm sure they'll be brought to justice and with the publicity this situation has created, they will hopefully be dealt with severely. In addition, with luck and some of our communication being drip fed to the Scottish Executive, the law on wildlife crime can be tightened, taken more seriously and the control of poisons more tightly administered.

My issues are twofold.

1/ As has already been asked, how are is the adult male and juvenile bird faring? Because of the time of the females death, they should be fine, but it would be nice to know.

2/ Because of the geography, topography and the distance from any other golden eagle territories the likilihood of another female coming into the area to pick up with the male are slim. Is there a will amongst us to work towards the translocation of a bird into the territory to re-establish the pairing, or indeed hacking a captive bird? My adult female was in full courtship display with a wild male earlier this year and I almost lost her to him. That incident demonstrates to me that it is a possibility, as further supported by the sea eagle re-introductions, although from wild birds in that case. The correctly reared bird I'm sure could be placed to remain in the territory and survive.

The area has regarded it's lonely pair of eagles for many years. Can our energies return the situatiuon to natures status quo, or do we let the territory go barren?

Barry.

[MickeyDredd]

Barry

Perhaps the best option for replacement of the female would be to introduce a wild scottish female, i'm sure if SNH can relocate Scottish youngsters to Ireland then the feasibility to trap an adult female is high in order to maintain Scotlands stock.

i'd much rather this than a captive-bred Russian or Czech bird be released.

Rgds
Mike

[Chicquera]

Many of you will know about the sad demise of a my Verreaux Eagle a few years ago. For that reason this thread has been very close to the bone for me.

I'll not try to come up with a remedy or an attack on the culprits. I'm sure they'll be brought to justice and with the publicity this situation has created, they will hopefully be dealt with severely. In addition, with luck and some of our communication being drip fed to the Scottish Executive, the law on wildlife crime can be tightened, taken more seriously and the control of poisons more tightly administered.

My issues are twofold.

1/ As has already been asked, how are is the adult male and juvenile bird faring? Because of the time of the females death, they should be fine, but it would be nice to know.

2/ Because of the geography, topography and the distance from any other golden eagle territories the likilihood of another female coming into the area to pick up with the male are slim. Is there a will amongst us to work towards the translocation of a bird into the territory to re-establish the pairing, or indeed hacking a captive bird? My adult female was in full courtship display with a wild male earlier this year and I almost lost her to him. That incident demonstrates to me that it is a possibility, as further supported by the sea eagle re-introductions, although from wild birds in that case. The correctly reared bird I'm sure could be placed to remain in the territory and survive.

The area has regarded it's lonely pair of eagles for many years. Can our energies return the situatiuon to natures status quo, or do we let the territory go barren?

Barry.

I think this is something we need to look at, not only in the Scottish Borders but also the Lake District (Haweswater). I have contacted Vin Fleming at JNCC to enquire if any groups have looked at a release programme in these areas and are awaiting his reply, will report back when I get it !

[Barry]

Hi Mike, I agree, but like the Sea Eagles we can and do take foreign genetics to our wild stocks. We could, if we had to search out the genetics of a captive bird for introduction to try to get something historically and genetically Scottish but it would be hard to be sure of what you have. Translocation of a bird would be so very much better.

If there is a collective will to do it I'll get the ball rolling with SNH, maybe JNCC, and the Executive /DEFRA and talk to the estate where I know some of the birds for Ireland came from. If it is available perhaps someone could help with contact details for the owner of the estate where the original bird in the borders was killed, plus contacts for the WLO in the area - I think that's on this thread, but its suddenly a big trawl to find it.

Barry.

[Chicquera]

Hi Mike, I agree, but like the Sea Eagles we can and do take foreign genetics to our wild stocks. We could, if we had to search out the genetics of a captive bird for introduction to try to get something historically and genetically Scottish but it would be hard to be sure of what you have. Translocation of a bird would be so very much better.

If there is a collective will to do it I'll get the ball rolling with SNH, maybe JNCC, and the Executive /DEFRA and talk to the estate where I know some of the birds for Ireland came from. If it is available perhaps someone could help with contact details for the owner of the estate where the original bird in the borders was killed, plus contacts for the WLO in the area - I think that's on this thread, but its suddenly a big trawl to find it.

Barry.

It would be highly feasible to take young birds, or eggs, from nests and release them if the prey base is there but I cant see trans-location of an older female being possible given that bird may already be part of an established pair.

[Salty]

I think this is something we need to look at, not only in the Scottish Borders but also the Lake District (Haweswater). I have contacted Vin Fleming at JNCC to enquire if any groups have looked at a release programme in these areas and are awaiting his reply, will report back when I get it !

agree mate its sad a bout the haweswater pair and was going to add this myself till you did mate ,belevie she died an old bird also not persecution so may be safer anyway

[Barry]

Very young birds and eggs present too many difficulties. An established adult totally pointless and damaging. Trans-location would have to be a sub adult passager just pre-breeding age. Very easy to identify. I did quite a bit of this tyrapping wild goldens for falconry in Wyoming a few years ago.

Barry.

[MickeyDredd]

It would be highly feasible to take young birds, or eggs, from nests and release them if the prey base is there but I cant see trans-location of an older female being possible given that bird may already be part of an established pair.

There will be a number of females in scotland which are either not part of an established pair or not quite at breeding age which could be specifically targetted for capture and relocation, it would be a shame to waste a few years potential breeding.

Some have also stated that they are not the only eagles in the area and also that some eagles winter in the region so perhaps the authorities will wait and see if another female moves in before considering such schemes.

There are proven Scottish eagles in captivity in the UK. it would just depend if they were suitable and if the owners would be willing to release them for such a purpose.

[Alan G]

plus contacts for the WLO in the area - I think that's on this thread, but its suddenly a big trawl to find it.

Barry.

There you go Barry.

PC Mark Rafferty. Tel 07785 248 455

[Alan G]

I have just recieved this fron the Director of "The Scottish Association For Country Sports".

He asked if i could post the position of the Association.

"Quote". "It would be good if you can post the following for me till I get time to dive into this properly:"

“This Association, which represents the interests of all who shoot, fly birds of prey, or take part in any form of country sport in Scotland and throughout the British Isles does not condone ANY form of illegal activity in the countryside, and we actively encourage our members to stay within the law at all times.



However, this case clearly demonstrates what we see as one of the most important issues in so-called ‘wildlife crime’ - a golden eagle poisoned by accident, almost certainly caused by one thing only - the fact that the RSPB and the so-called ‘Raptor Study Groups’, by their tunnel-visioned approach to raptors, have made any form of legal management of birds of prey impossible.



Their complete intransigence over this issue has lost them the respect of all who take part in country sports in this country, and has in the wider picture perhaps done far more harm than good to the countryside and the species we all love.



As a former austringer, I have absolutely no desire to kill birds of prey - if I had more time I would again fly the birds I love. However, I fully recognize that the presence of specific individual birds of prey, in specific locations, is difficult to tolerate.



A common example of this would be a female sparrowhawk which has learned, as a few individuals do, to go into a pigeon loft and kill birds every day, causing huge distress and financial loss to the owner of the birds.



Another common example would be a buzzard which has learned to find pheasant or partridge poults in a release pen or wood, and just keeps coming back for more, to the exclusion of other prey.



The presence of Hen Harriers in any quantity on a grouse moor destroys the whole grouse population on the moor, together with all of the other upland birds - after which the harriers simply move on. In all of these cases, the removal of the individual raptor would solve the problem instantly.



I can speak for the great majority of country sportsmen in saying that we genuinely have no desire to kill birds of prey, but we desperately need a legal method of solving the problems mentioned above, with specific birds in problem locations.



We are currently looking at realistic methods of achieving this, and there are several methods of non-lethal control which would work satisfactorily for the ultimate benefit of all concerned, even the raptors. Nothing, however, will be achieved unless the RSPB and Raptor Study Groups give up their entrenched and untenable position and join the rest of us who look after the countryside in achieving a balanced and sensible approach to wildlife management for the new century.



Ian Clark

Director, Scottish Association for Country Sports (SACS)

[MickeyDredd]

However, this case clearly demonstrates what we see as one of the most important issues in so-called ‘wildlife crime’ - a golden eagle poisoned by accident, almost certainly caused by one thing only - the fact that the RSPB and the so-called ‘Raptor Study Groups’, by their tunnel-visioned approach to raptors, have made any form of legal management of birds of prey impossible.



Whilst I agree with much of the things stated in the whole statement and accept that the RSPB and RSG's should be more flexible in their approach to raptors, to blame the above bodies for anyone resorting to illegal and indiscriminate poisoning rather than shooting/etc specific problem raptors under licence almost beggars belief!! :roll: :roll: .

The above statement also suggests quite specifically that this particular golden eagle was poisoned by accident i.e. was not the intended raptor species targetted, which certainly appears to suggest a certain degree of knowledge of the facts of the case.....surely not a presumption of guilt by SACS!!!! :wink:

[Alan G]

Whilst I agree with much of the things stated in the whole statement and accept that the RSPB and RSG's should be more flexible in their approach to raptors, to blame the above bodies for anyone resorting to illegal and indiscriminate poisoning rather than shooting/etc specific problem raptors under licence almost beggars belief!! :roll: :roll: .

The above statement also suggests quite specifically that this particular golden eagle was poisoned by accident i.e. was not the intended raptor species targetted, which certainly appears to suggest a certain degree of knowledge of the facts of the case.....surely not a presumption of guilt by SACS!!!! :wink:

I was e mailed with the above, but did mention at the beggining, "Quote". "It would be good if you can post the following for me till I get time to dive into this properly:"

The organisation supports a fine balance between all country sports, also it fights for our rights to carry these sports out without being hinderd, wasting money on useless studies.

This is the only Scottish sporting association, that is based in, lives in & sleeps in Scotland. All funds etc live & stay with the local economy. Although, like BASC/CA they accept membership from across the UK & they cover N Ireland & Eire when other would not.

I am no way up to speed at the moment in regards to where SACS stands, but i do know, they are here to help the Scottish Country Sports Person and will release a more indepth article, once they get chatting to those involved in the investigation 7 estate owner.

[MickeyDredd]

Alan

Certainly wasnt having a go at you for posting it.

For this organisation to word the statement in such a way BEFORE knowing the facts is not very clever IMHO.

[Alan G]

Alan

Certainly wasnt having a go at you for posting it.

For this organisation to word the statement in such a way BEFORE knowing the facts is not very clever IMHO.

No,No Mike. No offence taken mate. I'll PM ya.

Right, just spoke to the Press Officer at SSPCA Edinburgh. As of this time, they do not have an update. They were trying to contact PC Mark Rafferty, to get some up to date information.

The SSPCA press office, was not aware of the money raised through pledges by the IFF, they do now & i think they are going to contact Hawkmaster for a statement.

Also, from what i was told on the phone, they are looking into making a statement, in regards to the good work and good intentions of everyone on the IFF.

So we may get some positive press out of this again. :supz:

[MickeyDredd]

Excellent, well done :supz:

[Chicquera]

I've had a response back from Vin Fleming of JNCC in which he states "the response of falconers is very positive and exemplary" with regards to the efforts of IFF members at raising money toward the reward fund.
In answer to my question regarding the release of Golden Eagles in the Borders and Lake District he is going to speak to other agencies and find out if this possibility has been looked at.
I have replied that I thought the falconry fraternity would be willing to get involved in any release programme if one was thought viable !

[TLDWB]

SACS seems to be very anti raptor, having read some of there literature they are very forward in their views about controlling raptors. My personal opinion is that they would gladly welcome a cull on raptors. This being said, I have to say I am grudgingly a member of BASC at this point in time which has similar opinions on raptors in Britain.

Tom

[Alan G]

Updated Release From SACS;


It’s good that forum members are commenting freely on these things in the forum - we all need to be able to express our views openly, and respectfully of the views of others.



Firstly, I suspect that the use of poisons, usually emotively described as ‘indiscriminate’ by the press, are only used as a last resort - since there is no legal way to do what people genuinely believe needs to be done. At a practical level, to place a doped rabbit carcass in a remote location is possibly only chosen as the method least likely to be discovered.



The need for this kind of approach would be completely removed, if there were legal methods of dealing with an individual bird that is causing a problem - I am confident that if there were legal methods available, no responsible countryman would resort to the use of poison. This is why I place the blame so firmly on the shoulders of the RSPB and Raptor Study Groups - by their constant unyielding efforts to make any form of raptor management illegal, I believe that they are largely responsible for the situation we are in now.



The use of live-catch traps would be a far more sensible and humane method of management - it allows safe release of non-target species, and re-location or otherwise of target species.



My personal belief is that any licensing system in which the RSPB and/or Raptor Study Groups are allowed to ‘advise’ on licenses will never work. At present, this is what happens, and in Scotland no licenses are ever issued in time to do any good - which is of course the intention of these bodies.



On the ‘guilt’ or otherwise in this particular case - I know the solicitor who is representing the Estate in question personally, and I have perhaps rather more knowledge of the case than the general public. In any event - all I said was that I felt it likely that in the circumstances, the eagle was poisoned by accident - falling foul of a poisoned bait intended for a different species - I did not condone the use of poison in any way, and did not try to attribute guilt to anyone.



Finally, I would like to make it clear that neither SACS nor I personally are in ANY way anti-raptor in principle, or even in practice. I actually mentioned that in fact I flew birds myself in the past as evidence of this.



Our view is simply that the pro-raptor lobby has been allowed to go too far with their beliefs and have forced the management of the countryside off balance. In our view, a sensible and practical (and legal!) method of raptor management, whether by trapping or otherwise, of raptors, would allow land-managers and owners to restore the balance which has been lost.



Ian Clark

Director, SACS

[MickeyDredd]

Alan

Can you please advise SACS that the SRSG's have absolutely no legal voice to stop the cull of raptors, problem or otherwise. They have this year re-affirmed their commitment to there being no raptor control whatsoever, whether by culling, wild-take or whatever.......but that is pretty much as meaningful as members of this forum reaffirming there view that there should be a wild-take.

They really aren't much of a pressure body, their main focus as the name suggests is purely to collate raptor breeding records. They do however tend to be pretty much aligned with the views of the RSPB.

Rgds
Mike

[Harrisii]

Updated Release From SACS;


It’s good that forum members are commenting freely on these things in the forum - we all need to be able to express our views openly, and respectfully of the views of others.



Firstly, I suspect that the use of poisons, usually emotively described as ‘indiscriminate’ by the press, are only used as a last resort - since there is no legal way to do what people genuinely believe needs to be done. At a practical level, to place a doped rabbit carcass in a remote location is possibly only chosen as the method least likely to be discovered.



The need for this kind of approach would be completely removed, if there were legal methods of dealing with an individual bird that is causing a problem - I am confident that if there were legal methods available, no responsible countryman would resort to the use of poison. This is why I place the blame so firmly on the shoulders of the RSPB and Raptor Study Groups - by their constant unyielding efforts to make any form of raptor management illegal, I believe that they are largely responsible for the situation we are in now.



The use of live-catch traps would be a far more sensible and humane method of management - it allows safe release of non-target species, and re-location or otherwise of target species.



My personal belief is that any licensing system in which the RSPB and/or Raptor Study Groups are allowed to ‘advise’ on licenses will never work. At present, this is what happens, and in Scotland no licenses are ever issued in time to do any good - which is of course the intention of these bodies.



On the ‘guilt’ or otherwise in this particular case - I know the solicitor who is representing the Estate in question personally, and I have perhaps rather more knowledge of the case than the general public. In any event - all I said was that I felt it likely that in the circumstances, the eagle was poisoned by accident - falling foul of a poisoned bait intended for a different species - I did not condone the use of poison in any way, and did not try to attribute guilt to anyone.



Finally, I would like to make it clear that neither SACS nor I personally are in ANY way anti-raptor in principle, or even in practice. I actually mentioned that in fact I flew birds myself in the past as evidence of this.



Our view is simply that the pro-raptor lobby has been allowed to go too far with their beliefs and have forced the management of the countryside off balance. In our view, a sensible and practical (and legal!) method of raptor management, whether by trapping or otherwise, of raptors, would allow land-managers and owners to restore the balance which has been lost.



Ian Clark

Director, SACS


LOTS OF WORDS, PASSIONIST VIEWS. 1 YEAR IN FALCONRY???
ALAN GALLOWAY>>>>>>>>>>>>>?

SHOW YOUR HAND ALAN,,,

PERSONALLY, FROM (YOU'RE) ZOO, whats your stance???

for one whom has an experience in falconry (1yr) whats your real name?

wake up!!!!!!!!!!1

LARGEST? RUMMBLED?


geee mee piece!

[Chicquera]

Updated Release From SACS;


It’s good that forum members are commenting freely on these things in the forum - we all need to be able to express our views openly, and respectfully of the views of others.



Firstly, I suspect that the use of poisons, usually emotively described as ‘indiscriminate’ by the press, are only used as a last resort - since there is no legal way to do what people genuinely believe needs to be done. At a practical level, to place a doped rabbit carcass in a remote location is possibly only chosen as the method least likely to be discovered.



The need for this kind of approach would be completely removed, if there were legal methods of dealing with an individual bird that is causing a problem - I am confident that if there were legal methods available, no responsible countryman would resort to the use of poison. This is why I place the blame so firmly on the shoulders of the RSPB and Raptor Study Groups - by their constant unyielding efforts to make any form of raptor management illegal, I believe that they are largely responsible for the situation we are in now.



The use of live-catch traps would be a far more sensible and humane method of management - it allows safe release of non-target species, and re-location or otherwise of target species.



My personal belief is that any licensing system in which the RSPB and/or Raptor Study Groups are allowed to ‘advise’ on licenses will never work. At present, this is what happens, and in Scotland no licenses are ever issued in time to do any good - which is of course the intention of these bodies.



On the ‘guilt’ or otherwise in this particular case - I know the solicitor who is representing the Estate in question personally, and I have perhaps rather more knowledge of the case than the general public. In any event - all I said was that I felt it likely that in the circumstances, the eagle was poisoned by accident - falling foul of a poisoned bait intended for a different species - I did not condone the use of poison in any way, and did not try to attribute guilt to anyone.



Finally, I would like to make it clear that neither SACS nor I personally are in ANY way anti-raptor in principle, or even in practice. I actually mentioned that in fact I flew birds myself in the past as evidence of this.



Our view is simply that the pro-raptor lobby has been allowed to go too far with their beliefs and have forced the management of the countryside off balance. In our view, a sensible and practical (and legal!) method of raptor management, whether by trapping or otherwise, of raptors, would allow land-managers and owners to restore the balance which has been lost.



Ian Clark

Director, SACS

What a load of rubbish, the balance has been lost because of the hundreds of thousands of game birds that are released into the countryside each year and when the raptors start queing up for a free meal certain people see their profit margins being hit !!! :roll:

TWENTY THOUSAND partridge released on one of the largest estates in SW Scotland this year, call that a balance of nature ????

[TLDWB]

What a load of rubbish, the balance has been lost because of the hundreds of thousands of game birds that are released into the countryside each year and when the raptors start queing up for a free meal certain people see their profit margins being hit !!! :roll:

Exactly.

Tom

[Miliscer]

Well why not stop all shooting in Scotland, be it pheasant or dear and then see how long the other wildlife lasts? :roll:

This was a good thread and it has just gone down hill and is being used as a vehicle to attack anything you disagree with.

If there were no sporting estates, how many of you would have land to fly on? let alone quarry to fly at?

Shooting ploughs millions each year in to Scotland, what do you guys plough in to it?

Regards

Mike

[Chicquera]

Well why not stop all shooting in Scotland, be it pheasant or dear and then see how long the other wildlife lasts? :roll:

This was a good thread and it has just gone down hill and is being used as a vehicle to attack anything you disagree with.

If there were no sporting estates, how many of you would have land to fly on? let alone quarry to fly at?

Shooting ploughs millions each year in to Scotland, what do you guys plough in to it?

Regards

Mike

The countryside doesn't need mass game bird releases, it's illegal in many other EU countries, for good reason and given the threat from avian flu at the moment I think the game shooting people should keep their heads down because if there is any disease threat to our native bird life it is through the introduction of hundreds of thousand of farm reared game birds every year.
There is justification for most field sport including small scale game shooting but this mass release, big business, game shooting should be examined more closely to see what impact it has on our native wildlife.
And that's exactly the point, falconry is not money orinated and makes little impact on the country unlike driven game shooting !

[EddieT]

What a load of rubbish, the balance has been lost because of the hundreds of thousands of game birds that are released into the countryside each year and when the raptors start queing up for a free meal certain people see their profit margins being hit !!! :roll:

TWENTY THOUSAND partridge released on one of the largest estates in SW Scotland this year, call that a balance of nature ????

err not quite. The land that the game is released on has been managed to support the game (cover crops, maintenance of release woods and spinneys etc) and this management also greatly benefits other wildlife too.

The profit that you deride is the money that makes this countryside management worth while and prevents the land management being focussed towards other means less beneficial to wildlife. There is no 'natural balance' in the countryside. All the landscape that you see is the way that it is because of the way that it is managed to make profit. Profit is not a dirty word, it is the means by which farmers and others put bread on their table. Shooting puts millions of £ into the rural economy each year and greatly enriches the landscape with the type of management this money pays including the wages of those who work on the land.

Gamekeepers spend a lot of time controlling predators such as foxes, corvids stoats, mink etc but you don't complain about that, so maybe you find that all acceptably part of your "balance of nature"?

Now, don't get me wrong. I think that the indescriminate use of poison is a vile crime in our countryside and I think that killing of our native raptors wrong for any reason. The people that caused the death of that golden eagle need to be brought to book and those that defend them need to be enlightened. Its just that we need to use arguement based in the real world rather than some fantasy, anti field sport propoganda fuelled world that your post was coming from.

[Kirowan]

The countryside doesn't need mass game bird releases, it's illegal in many other EU countries, for good reason and given the threat from avian flu at the moment I think the game shooting people should keep their heads down because if there is any disease threat to our native bird life it is through the introduction of hundreds of thousand of farm reared game birds every year.
There is justification for most field sport including small scale game shooting but this mass release, big business, game shooting should be examined more closely to see what impact it has on our native wildlife.
And that's exactly the point, falconry is not money orinated and makes little impact on the country unlike driven game shooting !
aint that also true of large scale wild hacking of falcons,a large influx of raptors in one area.they maynot prey on local species but they sure will have a preditor prey impact.we have to be careful who we critiise.just has there are people out there who dont like the mass release of game some are also against hacking none indiginous species.

[Rabbit Killer]

Gary,
I dont think the release of farm reared gamebirds has any real impact on wild birds.
An estate just one mile from me puts down 15000 pheasants, so many mallard and redlegs, but there is no direct impact on the wildlife.
I actually do fox control on there, and there is no difference to the wild birds on that estate.
Nevertheless to go back to some of the points raised just recently.
It has been pointed out that the Eagle was not the intended victim.
I said that at the beginning of this thread, and I am sure that is still the case.
Shooting must continue in this Country, it brings massive investment from both our own people and foreign investment, mainly Americans.
Management of the uplands also benefits many other species of birds and therefore must continue.
I support shooting 100%, but I dont support the killing of Raptors.

What we need is for the RSPB, JNCC and Defra to get round the table and talk sensibly about reintroducing a wild take scheme.
That would show the shooting community that there was a sensible approach to raptor control, and would alleviate some of the problems caused by raptors.

Furthermore, we in the fieldsports community must all gel and pull in the same direction, not attack each other.

There are enough weirdos and hot heads out there already attacking us, without us adding to the problem.

[MickeyDredd]

What we need is for the RSPB, JNCC and Defra to get round the table and talk sensibly about reintroducing a wild take scheme.


But who wants a wild-take of buzzards, the main problem raptor these days??

[Alan G]

LOTS OF WORDS, PASSIONIST VIEWS. 1 YEAR IN FALCONRY???
ALAN GALLOWAY>>>>>>>>>>>>>?

SHOW YOUR HAND ALAN,,,

PERSONALLY, FROM (YOU'RE) ZOO, whats your stance???

for one whom has an experience in falconry (1yr) whats your real name?

wake up!!!!!!!!!!1

LARGEST? RUMMBLED?


geee mee piece!


Sorry to be an upset, but you couldn't be farther from the truth...............Its not Alan Galloway. Alan still runs Cumbernauld & Louden, but it ain't me! :roll:

Let's just say im from Larkhall. A couple of forum members met me at Scone, so that will confirm the fact that its not A. Galloway.

Sorry. :yawinkle: :D

[Rabbit Killer]

But who wants a wild-take of buzzards, the main problem raptor these days??

I agree, certainly not me !
Whilst you have a very healthy Buzzard population in Scotland, we are lucky to see one down here. We have the habitat to support it, but there are non ?
Sparrowhawks and Goshawks are at such levels, they could allow a controlled wild take.
Spars and Gosses cause problems and I know that in Kielder Forest a few years ago, some gosses had to be trapped and moved to the Peak District because of immense killing of Red Squirrels.
The forest was been robbed of its wildlife, so theres a prime example.

What you do with an over population of Buzzards, I just dont know.

I would like to see some down here though.

[Wingless]

LOTS OF WORDS, PASSIONIST VIEWS. 1 YEAR IN FALCONRY???
ALAN GALLOWAY>>>>>>>>>>>>>?

SHOW YOUR HAND ALAN,,,

PERSONALLY, FROM (YOU'RE) ZOO, whats your stance???

for one whom has an experience in falconry (1yr) whats your real name?

wake up!!!!!!!!!!1

LARGEST? RUMMBLED?


geee mee piece!




I know alan galloway and alan G is not him :rolleyes: so much for the incredible revelation.

[MickeyDredd]

I agree, certainly not me !
Whilst you have a very healthy Buzzard population in Scotland, we are lucky to see one down here. We have the habitat to support it, but there are non ?
Spars and Gosses cause problems and I know that in Kielder Forest a few years ago, some gosses had to be trapped and moved to the Peak District because of immense killing of Red Squirrels.
The forest was been robbed of its wildlife, so theres a prime example.

What you do with an over population of Buzzards, I just dont know.

I would like to see some down here though.

Well if there definately is a precedent of moving gosses then i see no reason why CB's couldn't also be relocated, although I'm sure the powers that be would state that the gos relocation was to preserve a natural species rather than to protect put down game birds.

Not sure it would be welcomed by all in your area though.....there must be a reason why you have so few CB's if the habitat is there for them......;)

[Alan G]

I know alan galloway and alan G is not him :rolleyes: so much for the incredible revelation.

Cheers for correcting who's who, Wingless. :supz:

See, i suppose the photo in the Avitar does help in some instances. :rolleyes:

[Rabbit Killer]

Well if there definately is a precedent of moving gosses then i see no reason why CB's couldn't also be relocated, although I'm sure the powers that be would state that the gos relocation was to preserve a natural species rather than to protect put down game birds.

Not sure it would be welcomed by all in your area though.....there must be a reason why you have so few CB's if the habitat is there for them......;)

Well all I can say is that Co.Durham has some of the best Grouse moors in the UK and attracts some of the wealthiest people to the area for shooting.

It is about time for the "Powers That Be" to open up and start to talk sensibly about this situation.
It will never be resolved whilst they hide in their offices in Bedfordshire and Bristol.

[Chicquera]

Gary,
I dont think the release of farm reared gamebirds has any real impact on wild birds.
An estate just one mile from me puts down 15000 pheasants, so many mallard and redlegs, but there is no direct impact on the wildlife.
I actually do fox control on there, and there is no difference to the wild birds on that estate.
Nevertheless to go back to some of the points raised just recently.
It has been pointed out that the Eagle was not the intended victim.
I said that at the beginning of this thread, and I am sure that is still the case.
Shooting must continue in this Country, it brings massive investment from both our own people and foreign investment, mainly Americans.
Management of the uplands also benefits many other species of birds and therefore must continue.
I support shooting 100%, but I dont support the killing of Raptors.

What we need is for the RSPB, JNCC and Defra to get round the table and talk sensibly about reintroducing a wild take scheme.
That would show the shooting community that there was a sensible approach to raptor control, and would alleviate some of the problems caused by raptors.

Furthermore, we in the fieldsports community must all gel and pull in the same direction, not attack each other.

There are enough weirdos and hot heads out there already attacking us, without us adding to the problem.

Shaun, I've been involved with field sports since I was nine years old, nearly forty years, I love the countryside and are fascinated by its wildlife, there has to be some justification for taking an animals life and large scale driven game shooting has no respect for "life", these birds are flying targets, they have virtually no value as meat and are indeed now being bred smaller to make a faster flying target, there is very little moral justification for this field sport and it brings out the worst in people due to the massive amount of money that is involved with this business that is focued on head counts.
I agree that a lot of the British countryside has evolved due to driven shooting but I just dont think many of you have witnessed what is going on up here (Scotland) with tens of thousands of partridge being released on hill ground and the problems that causes with resident raptor populations !
What we've seen with the loss of this female eagle wont be the last, driven game shooting is causing the inbalance in nature and it's the raptor population who will suffer !!:evil:

[TLDWB]

I do not have a problem with game shooting, if its done in a properly. Yes it does bring a good income to the local community, but raptors should not be persecuted for a shoot to be successful. I do understand that their can be a problem with certain raptors predating on game birds, but this is a factor game keepers will have to accept. For me personally I can see the reintroduction of White tailed Eagles affecting myself directly, in this I mean, when my birds are weathering and being flown. At the moment Peregrines in my local area are doing well, and my own birds have had a couple of run ins with them, but thankfully nothing serious(yet). Others on this forum haven't been so fortunate with encounters with wild raptors, but this a risk we all take when practicing our sport. Game keepers will have to accept that their will be a slim chance of their being a legal cull on raptors in the near future. I personally do not have a problem with certain birds, that a causing a nuisance on shoots to be relocated, but this again would be difficult without the backing of the RSPB, who unfortunately have to big a say what goes on.

There is so much to say on this issue, but I hate having to type.

Tom

[Laggan]

I don't wish to deflect this thread from its evolved direction, but there is a small piece in today's C&A regarding Mohammed Al-Fayed calling for Highland landowners to be prosecuted "when their gamekeepers kill birds of prey on their land". He apparently owns an estate near Inverness. Perhaps he could be readily persuaded to match the reward money on offer thus far?

[Alan G]

I don't wish to deflect this thread from its evolved direction, but there is a small piece in today's C&A regarding Mohammed Al-Fayed calling for Highland landowners to be prosecuted "when their gamekeepers kill birds of prey on their land". He apparently owns an estate near Inverness. Perhaps he could be readily persuaded to match the reward money on offer thus far?

Was it not on his estate that there were dead Harriers or Kites found, just recently?
(correct me if i'm wrong).

[Alan G]

NEWS FLASH!

Wildlife crime crackdown pledged

A hard line on bird poisoning and wildlife crime has been promised by Environment Minister Mike Russell.
Convictions could result in the removal of firearms licences or cutting farm aid payments under measures being considered by the Scottish Executive.

Mr Russell confirmed the government was looking at such moves after a recent spate of poisonings.

In particular, he said he had been "absolutely appalled" by the killing of a golden eagle in Peeblesshire.

Mr Russell made his statement while shadowing two of Scotland's wildlife crime officers in the Borders.

"Birds of prey are magnificent creatures and wonderful assets for Scotland's biodiversity and tourism industry," he said.

"Their welfare is the responsibility of all of us.

"Like everyone else in Scotland I was absolutely appalled by the recent spate of poisonings, especially that of the golden eagle in Peeblesshire."

The minister said that while work was going on to tackle the problem, there was more that could be done.

He said one possibility was the loss of a firearms licence for anyone who had poisoned an animal which Mr Russell said could be a "potentially huge disincentive to anyone working in the countryside."

"I will also look, with the justice secretary, at how best to use the new offence of knowingly causing or permitting the unlawful killing or injuring of a bird," he said.

"Another sanction which I would like looked at is cutting the Single Farm Payment for estates implicated in bird poisonings.

'Decisive action'

"There should be no doubt that the Scottish government is determined to stamp out this shameful and barbaric practice which has no place in a modern, civilised and environmentally friendly country."

Labour's environment spokeswoman, Sarah Boyack responded warily to the proposals.

She said: "We back calls for greater use of financial penalties against landowners, however we would caution against targeting gamekeepers.

"Responsibility and accountability should lie with the estate and not with individual workers."

The call to look at how such crimes are punished has been backed by the Animal Concern Advice Line.

Secretary John Robins said it was important to hold landowners or shooting syndicates responsible for the action of their employees.

"Those people who pay gamekeepers to kill protected birds should risk going to prison along with their criminal keepers," he said.

"Raptor persecution has gone on for centuries but Mike Russell could put an end to it now if he takes decisive action and doesn't just double the fines levied on the monkeys.

"He has to jail the organ grinders."


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/south_of_scotland/6970283.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/south_of_scotland/6960152.stm

(Admin/Moderators, please feel free to merge the other post into this one or delete it, if it is too much)

[Alan G]

Eagle chick expected to survive

The chick's mother was found poisoned in the Scottish Borders
A golden eagle chick left motherless after a poisoning incident near Peebles is expected to survive.
The bird's mother was killed close to its nest site earlier this month. A reward of £10,000 has been offered for information leading to a conviction.

Fears were expressed at the time that the 10-week-old bird might starve if not supported by both its parents.

However, latest reports suggest that the bird should soon be strong enough to fend for itself.


Reward donations

The killing of the rare golden eagle - one half of the only breeding pair in the Borders - sparked international outcry.

A large number of donations have been received towards a reward fund for information which helps to catch its killer.

There had been initial concern that the eagle chick might struggle to survive without its mother.

However, it now appears that it will survive thanks to the care of a local landowner and wildlife officers.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/south_of_scotland/6960152.stm

[Chicquera]

If someone was to trap a bird of prey or take eggs of such birds and then offer them for sale they would almost certainly go to jail, as we have already seen but if someone is found guilty of killing such birds they are more than likely going to get off with a fine, how crazy is this ? :rolleyes:

[Dougie Mc]

not had time to read the thread for a while , 1 yes there is a few other eagles in the area at least 2 other pairs within distance plus i know of 2 single birds near by one of them is a youngster from the same nest last year also during the winter we get quite a few passage birds, don't see the need to introduce a bird.

[Rabbit Killer]

If someone was to trap a bird of prey or take eggs of such birds and then offer them for sale they would almost certainly go to jail, as we have already seen but if someone is found guilty of killing such birds they are more than likely going to get off with a fine, how crazy is this ? :rolleyes:

Your so right Gary, the laws in this Country are crazy, if I took a Gos from a nest somewhere in the UK, I would be hung, drawn and quartered.
Not to kill it, hurt it, maim it, just to fly it as a Falconer.

But shoot,poison, pole trap one, not much of a problem. A mere fine !! I know too well as you know.

Its about time they got their priorites right.
Me, you and Mark need to form the next Government.

We would sort the place out once and for all.

[Eagle Al]

NEWS FLASH!

Wildlife crime crackdown pledged

A hard line on bird poisoning and wildlife crime has been promised by Environment Minister Mike Russell.
Convictions could result in the removal of firearms licences or cutting farm aid payments under measures being considered by the Scottish Executive.
)

It would be my understanding that if some one is found guilty or even considered for a crime then that would be question over there 'mental suitability' to hold a firearms certificate anyway and the police would be well within their powers already to revoke the licence and therefore confiscate any held firearms.

Great idea, shame this guy doesn't really know that the ability is already there. Sure he felt better for making his statement though and he was suitably patted on the back for 'his' brain wave!

Also agree with the comments over the level of criminal action likely anyway especially versus punishment for other crimes (not that I'm supporting or advocating either!)

[Chicquera]

Your so right Gary, the laws in this Country are crazy, if I took a Gos from a nest somewhere in the UK, I would be hung, drawn and quartered.
Not to kill it, hurt it, maim it, just to fly it as a Falconer.

But shoot,poison, pole trap one, not much of a problem. A mere fine !! I know too well as you know.

Its about time they got their priorites right.
Me, you and Mark need to form the next Government.

We would sort the place out once and for all.

I think we'll leave Iraq to Mark and we can sort out the rest ! I know we could do a lot better job of managing wild populations of raptors but I think it's about time we had more of an input and I'm working on that, for the good of the raptor population if nothing else ! :-)

[Chicquera]

Your so right Gary, the laws in this Country are crazy, if I took a Gos from a nest somewhere in the UK, I would be hung, drawn and quartered.
Not to kill it, hurt it, maim it, just to fly it as a Falconer.

But shoot,poison, pole trap one, not much of a problem. A mere fine !! I know too well as you know.

Its about time they got their priorites right.
Me, you and Mark need to form the next Government.

We would sort the place out once and for all.

I think what people dont realise, and you may know more about this Shaun, is that when people have gone to jail for illegally taking raptors and offering them for sale it is only because they have been prosecuted for "fraud" which is a jailable offense, nothing to do with wildlife legislation !
Just shows where our priorities lie as a society, kill wildlife and you'll receive a fine, take someone's money and they'll lock you up !! :(

[Rabbit Killer]

I think we'll leave Iraq to Mark and we can sort out the rest ! I know we could do a lot better job of managing wild populations of raptors but I think it's about time we had more of an input and I'm working on that, for the good of the raptor population if nothing else ! :-)

If you think I could help and have a valuable input with your work, PM me and I'll do as much as I can to assist. PM me if you want my home Tel number.
I'm more than willing to help rather than just print on this forum.

Thanks.

[Rob999]

haven't read all replies, can't stress how angry this has made me feel, public flogging and then slow painful death would be the only answer to these irresponsible, thoughtless idiots ( being polite)........would have no trouble in dishing death penalty for those with total disregard for others and wildlife:evil:
hope the reward for cathing them is put back to hopefully reintroducing another mate.

[rapaxspirit]

personally if they get cought i would like to see them put on a sailine drip of sulphuric acid, administered at a dose of 2 parts per million every 62 hours, would take an average human at average weight around 11 months to pop off at that rate. very painfull and SLOW. a taste of their own medicine so to speak.:snakeman:

[rapaxspirit]

its a tenner from me lads.

[Alan G]

Just a little late update for all who were following, replied or who pledged to the reward of this incident.


Scottish Borders 'too dangerous a region' for golden eagle to live in
STEPHEN MCGINTY



FOR the golden eagle, an emblem of Scotland, the blue sky above the Borders is to become a no-fly zone. The wildlife crime officer for Lothian and Borders Police has said a spate of poisoning incidents has made the region too dangerous for the reintroduction of the majestic bird of prey.

Last month, a bird from the only breeding pair of golden eagles was found dead in the region after ingesting the banned substance carbofuran. While no-one has been charged, police suspect gamekeepers anxious to protect the dwindling number of grouse from the talons of eagles and other raptors.


As a consequence, Constable Mark Rafferty, the wildlife crime officer with Lothian and Borders Police, said he would not support any immediate plans to reintroduce golden eagles into the area. He said: "It is disappointing, but due to the levels of poisoning incidents, particularly around sporting estates, the Scottish Borders is not a suitable area for the breeding of golden eagles."

PC Rafferty said persecution was still taking place, despite the huge public outcry following the death of the golden eagle on a grouse moor near Peebles last month. The Scotsman has launched a campaign - Stop Them Now - in conjunction with the Scottish Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, to help catch those responsible for poisoning birds of prey, the slaughter of which now stands at its highest level for 20 years.

Tests carried out on the ten-year-old female bird's carcase confirmed the presence of carbofuran. Despite a reward of £7,500 being offered by various groups leading to the arrest of the culprit, no-one has yet been charged with the killing.

But PC Rafferty is following up a number of lines of inquiry. "There has been a positive response from the public and, indeed, members of the gamekeeping community," he said.

Scottish Natural Heritage (SNH) has worked to reintroduce rare birds into parts of Scotland. In 1975, it began to reintroduce the white-tailed sea eagle, while red kites have been introduced into areas of Dumfries and Galloway.

Professor Colin Galbraith, the director of policy and advice at SNH, admitted it would have to consider seriously the implications of reintroducing golden eagles to an area such as the Borders. He said: "The poisoning of a golden eagle was an outrage.

"These magnificent birds add much to Scottish life, culturally and economically, and are a key part of our biodiversity."

"Reintroductions of any species are complex projects requiring many factors to be taken into account and the level of persecution would be one factor. We have, however, addressed such issues previously in the reintroduction of red kites to the south of Scotland; a project succeeding with help from landowners."

However, an SNH spokeswoman said the door was not closed to the return of golden eagles to the Borders.

Jackie McCreery, director of policy and public affairs at the Scottish Rural Property and Business Association (SRPBA), said many landowners in the area would welcome plans to bring in eagles.

He said: "Any reintroduction we are sure would be supported by our members in the Borders. It must be reiterated that the golden eagle found poisoned in August had been protected for ten years by the owner of the ground on which it was found.

"SRPBA has strengthened its position regarding members if convicted of illegal poisoning, and we are intent on seeing increased co-operation to bring this illegal activity to an end.

"We have concerns that this recommendation from Lothian and Borders Police, while well-intended, gives the wrong signals at this time."

ON A WING AND A PRAYER
SCOTLAND'S birds of prey are under greater threat than at any other time in the past 20 years. There was a 50 per cent rise in the number of raptors deliberately killed or poisoned in 2006, with 183 incidents compared to 121 in the previous year. Yet investigators at the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds (RSPB) said these figures were just the tip of the iceberg. Raptors are particularly vulnerable to persecution because they breed slowly and produce only a few young.

Between 2001 and 2006 there were just 12 convictions in connection with persecuting birds of prey, with seven of those in 2006. Nine of those convicted were gamekeepers, with one shoot-manager, a crofter and a pigeon-fancier making up the rest.

OUR CAMPAIGN
THE Scotsman is committed to helping the Scottish Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals catch those responsible for killing birds of prey and other wildlife.

Information about raptor poisonings and other incidents of wildlife crime can be passed to police via the National Wildlife Crime Unit in North Berwick on 01620 893607.

http://news.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=1542472007

[albicilla]

damn what a shame.. same happened in holland this week white tail killed probably poisoned.. some people are sick

[IceAgeDoc]

There sure is some sick phsycos out there i hope they get whats due them.:gib:


Drew

do the same thing with these phsycos what they did with Goldi....:twisted:....:twisted:

[Oscar Pack]

[quote=Alan G;681869]Just a little late update for all who were following, replied or who pledged to the reward of this incident.


Scottish Borders 'too dangerous a region' for golden eagle to live in
STEPHEN MCGINTY



FOR the golden eagle, an emblem of Scotland, the blue sky above the Borders is to become a no-fly zone. The wildlife crime officer for Lothian and Borders Police has said a spate of poisoning incidents has made the region too dangerous for the reintroduction of the majestic bird of prey.

Last month, a bird from the only breeding pair of golden eagles was found dead in the region after ingesting the banned substance carbofuran. While no-one has been charged, police suspect gamekeepers anxious to protect the dwindling number of grouse from the talons of eagles and other raptors.


As a consequence, Constable Mark Rafferty, the wildlife crime officer with Lothian and Borders Police, said he would not support any immediate plans to reintroduce golden eagles into the area. He said: "It is disappointing, but due to the levels of poisoning incidents, particularly around sporting estates, the Scottish Borders is not a suitable area for the breeding of golden eagles."

Looks to me like this falls right into the gamekeepers plan, that is to get rid of all predators. I think they should look to the golden eagle as an indicator species, a healthy population of golden eagles means a healthy grouse population. If the eagles are in trouble, all grouse hunting should be put on hold until they pull out of it.
Or maybe with a program to help the golden eagle population there should be figured in the cost of releasing grouse also or some sort of subsidy to the game keepers.
rambling thoughts,
Oscar

[IAmTheWeasel]

To Hell with it! Start poisoning the bloody gamekeepers! Sick of this kind of stuff. We have the same problems on this side of the pond, but more with the pigeon fanciers and ranchers up north that any gamekeepers.

[GreaterSanta616]

I cant believe this has happened!!
Why would anybody try to hurt these majestic birds?

[Phil Noble]

:vom::vom::vom::vom:

[WhiteTail]

personally if they get cought i would like to see them put on a sailine drip of sulphuric acid, administered at a dose of 2 parts per million every 62 hours, would take an average human at average weight around 11 months to pop off at that rate. very painfull and SLOW. a taste of their own medicine so to speak.:snakeman:

Its scary that someone might know this information.. lol

but yes.. a punishment is certainly needed.. and not the common 150hrs community order

[Barbary Boy]

havent managed to read this whole thread its just to long! but was the poisoned eagle one of the pair that regularly crosses the border to breed in northumberland? regardless, if the reward fund is still running i pledge £100. whats the latest news?

[dac]

do Golden Eagles breed under age six?

[Barry]

do Golden Eagles breed under age six?

Yes.

[Dougie Mc]

supries supries that male golden eagle that was left and would never get a mate as there are none ?????? that what the rspb etc said has found a mate and reared a chick this year. mabye the dead eagle was a set up ?

Dougie

[Harrisii]

supries supries that male golden eagle that was left and would never get a mate as there are none ?????? that what the rspb etc said has found a mate and reared a chick this year. mabye the dead eagle was a set up ?

Dougie

a set up? how?
what a lot of guff.

everyone knows there were other non- breeding eagles in the area, but the female was the only breeding one.
great news they have paired and reared a chick. but to suggest it was a set up is conspiricy theory gone mad.

[crow killer84]

supries supries that male golden eagle that was left and would never get a mate as there are none ?????? that what the rspb etc said has found a mate and reared a chick this year. mabye the dead eagle was a set up ?

Dougie

muppet:confused:

[Barbary Boy]

if the dead eagle was one of the pair that regularly breed in northumberland then finding a new mate shouldnt have been to hard for it as there are several lone eagles knocking about in northumberland so where someone got there are none available from is wrong.

[Dougie Mc]

you can pass coment but what do you know where did you hear your info !!!!!

Just to let you know one small thing the police did not find the eagles on the estate they claimed thay realy picked it up from a private house and the person claims that some body brought it to him that great evedence is the police w/l/o stil in his job i think you might find he is not


last bit said as some of you wear blinkers

[Barbary Boy]

you can pass coment but what do you know where did you hear your info !!!!!

Just to let you know one small thing the police did not find the eagles on the estate they claimed thay realy picked it up from a private house and the person claims that some body brought it to him that great evedence is the police w/l/o stil in his job i think you might find he is not


last bit said as some of you wear blinkers
say again in the the queens english please?

[WestBrook]

Put me down for 30.00 Paul keep up the good work :):):)

[Morganna]

We Live In Such A Sick World ,man In Control Of All,but What This Thread Has Shown Out Of Little Acorns Mighty Chesnuts Will Grow ,maybe Just Maybe The People Responsible May Have ,committed This Appalling Crime For The Last Time ,it Will I Have No Doubt Come Back On Them ,what Goes Round Comes Round And Perhaps This May Trigger The People Who Are Supposed To Protect The Birds To Do So,to Have Offered A Mere £1000 To Begin With Was An Insult Considering What The Rspb Has Donated Each Year,and I Have No Doubt Any Person Who Donated To Them Would Not Have Complained Had It The Reward Been More,it Possibly Took The Likes Of The Forum And Its Members To Shame Them In To Offering A Decent Reward ,i Do Beleive The Culprits Will Be Found Now And Let Us All Pray They Get What Is Truly Due For This Obscene Crime.perhaps From This If Enough Noise Is Made Laws May Be Looked Into And Altered Accordingly To Fit The Crime.

[MeriPeri]

Sorry I'm late - I was out all day yesterday.
I pledge £20.00.

MeriPeri

[Kai]

its sickning and shame full that in 2008 such things still happen they been around a lot longer than us yet persicuted as a pest i dont no about a pest more magestic in my eyes n should b left well alone the scum thats done this needs publicly hanging enough said:twisted:

happy hawking

[EdenJohnny]

On the subject of Goldies , I hear The Queen has donated several Eagles to Ireland. We will have them in Donegal I believe,.. THANK YOU QUEENIE:heart:

[Graham Irving]

On the subject of Goldies , I hear The Queen has donated several Eagles to Ireland. We will have them in Donegal I believe,.. THANK YOU QUEENIE:heart:

Its just a pity that about 50% of those released in the last 5 years have disappeared.

Graham

[Thistle]

Check it out - makes for sad reading I'm afraid. Scottish Heritage research paper pub 2008 points to eagle poisonings on managed grousemoor as being the single most serious threat to Scottish goldens.

http://www.snh.org.uk/pdfs/publications/commissioned_reports/Report%20No193.pdf

(apologies to all if someone's already highlighted this paper to IFF readership)

[Thistle]

Afterthought - what's going on up there ? Poision bait being laid out on MANAGED grousemoors ??? Bet this news has gone down like a lead balloon with the gamekeeper's association.

[Thistle]

Here's an extract of the most salient points direct from the Scottish Heritage report. Open a tinny first, it makes for shocking reading if you think about it :


Current evidence indicates that illegal persecution and low food availability in parts of western Scotland are the two main constraints on the Scottish golden eagle population
.

A number of lines of evidence indicated that illegal persecution of eagles, principally associated with grouse moor management in the central and eastern Highlands, is the most severe constraint on Scottish golden eagles. These lines of evidence, based on population modelling and analyses using a Geographical Information System (GIS) are
as follows:
a) As carrion feeders, golden eagles are particularly vulnerable to poisoned bait. Records of the illegal use of poisoned baits were significantly associated with grouse moors; both nationally and within those regions where grouse moors predominated as a land-use (Figure 5). There was no evidence of a decline in records of poisoning on grouse moors between 1981 and 2000, even though poisoning incidents had declined in upland areas away from grouse moors;
b) Records of illegal persecution of golden eagles (including poisoning, trapping, shooting) were also more common in those regions where grouse moor management predominated;
c) There was no consistent or strong evidence of associations between territory vacancies and constraints other than persecution in these regions;
d) Persecution (assessed on the basis of the distribution of poisoning incidents) was associated with a lowering in the age of first breeding, a greater number of territory vacancies, and the use of territories by non-breeding immature eagles. The evidence indicates that persecution was reducing survival, constraining the distribution, and was probably creating ecological ‘traps’ by attracting dispersing immature eagles into areas of apparently suitable habitat that were unoccupied because previous residents had been killed. As well as affecting young birds from local nests, subadult (pre-breeding) survival in golden eagles from persecution-free areas would be reduced if they entered regions with
persecution;

[HawkMom]

Poisoning is sooo lazy and a cowardly way to mange a game keeping operation. Not to mention a poor management practice.

What the hell are they thinking?

[MickeyDredd]

A statment by the Golden Eagle Trust (GET) Project Manager appears to dispute your figures - what is your source of information?

We have released 50 Scottish birds over the last 7 years and a further four birds are due to be released shortly. We are only allowed collected a single chick from a nest containing two chicks. We have collected the birds as young chicks at 4-6 weeks of age and several of the birds have shown the signs of malnutrition, due to natural shortages of local prey or due to bad weather suppressing adult hunting activity during the chick stage. We are convinced that a minority of the birds we collected would not have survived if left in the Scottish eyries. Our aim is to release up to 75 birds. Five of the fifty birds have been found dead and all are believed to have died from natural causes. There is circumstantial and anecdotal evidence to suggest that a Golden Eagle was poisoned in Donegal and another bird was shot in Mayo, but the corpses were never recovered. We do suspect that other birds may have died and gone unrecorded, as happens in all other wild bird populations

Its just a pity that about 50% of those released in the last 5 years have disappeared.

Graham

[Drake]

A statment by the Golden Eagle Trust (GET) Project Manager appears to dispute your figures - what is your source of information?

We have released 50 Scottish birds over the last 7 years and a further four birds are due to be released shortly. We are only allowed collected a single chick from a nest containing two chicks. We have collected the birds as young chicks at 4-6 weeks of age and several of the birds have shown the signs of malnutrition, due to natural shortages of local prey or due to bad weather suppressing adult hunting activity during the chick stage. We are convinced that a minority of the birds we collected would not have survived if left in the Scottish eyries. Our aim is to release up to 75 birds. Five of the fifty birds have been found dead and all are believed to have died from natural causes. There is circumstantial and anecdotal evidence to suggest that a Golden Eagle was poisoned in Donegal and another bird was shot in Mayo, but the corpses were never recovered. We do suspect that other birds may have died and gone unrecorded, as happens in all other wild bird populations

So how many of the of the 50 eagles released are still alive?

[MickeyDredd]

Well from the article it would tend to suggest a great deal more than Graham suggests although it depends on what he means by disappeared.

Young eagles will disperse i'd imagine and there will have been some natural mortality.

They wont know how many exactly are still around as I dont think they fitted them with tracking devices.

So how many of the of the 50 eagles released are still alive?

[Thistle]

Well, maybe that's a good idea for Donegal's release protocol, and for future reintroduction schemes. Maybe fitting GPS/sat tracking device to all liberated birds would help in providing data for management, research - and in providing geographical movement evidence - which could help lead to prosecutions ? GPS kit is expensive maybe. But a golden is a big investment and make no mistake, they are in trouble in Scotland. Y'all know already what they cost, so it makes sense to track 'em - particularly so if it helps put these grouse loving BOP poisoners out of business.

[MickeyDredd]

Hi Thistle

I think it would be too expensive to GPS track all the released eagles in Ireland I'd imagine but certainly a sample of them should be tracked to see where they go.

also, if the golden eagle is in so much trouble (as the SNH report suggests) then how can Scotland still be sending youngsters to Ireland, why dont they release them in the unoccupied habitats they refer to in their report??

Rgds
MD

GPS kit is expensive maybe. But a golden is a big investment and make no mistake, they are in trouble in Scotland. Y'all know already what they cost, so it makes sense to track 'em - particularly so if it helps put these grouse loving BOP poisoners out of business.

[Thistle]

Hi Mickey, i think they did equip a few with GPS tracking - but as you say its kind of expensive. Why take chicks from Scotland ? Well, in the bowels of that report somewhere, it suggests juveniles were at increased risk in unoccupied and otherwise ideal looking Scottish territories, due to the fact previous adult occupants had frequently disappeared in those veryy same locations due to deliberate use of poison bait. Maybe SNH felt a new population of goldens somewhere else in the British Isles would be good, and the youngsters would stand a good chance of survival in Ireland ? I'm assuming they were aware of the gamekeeper problem in Scotland well before their 2008 report became public. To be honest with you Mickey, I think the Donegal project is based on sound thinking. It spreads the risk considerably. Think if an avian disease struck Scotland - wouldn't it be a good idea to have another population established somewhere ? In these terms, its simply an species 'insurance policy' if you will - reducing the risks associated with putting 'all the eggs in one regional basket'. Also - we're only just seeing the Donegal population begin to produce young, so wouldn't it be a shame to pull the plug now when the investment is just starting to produce tangible results ? Finally, as there's practically nothing by way of managed grousemoor in Ireland, the persecution issue really should (in theory) be less of a problem there. Who knows what's best - it's very easy to be critical of SNH, but I think they're doing their level best to ensure goldens are protected in difficult circumstances. I vote we support 'em !

[Drake]

Hi Mickey, i think they did equip a few with GPS tracking - but as you say its kind of expensive. Why take chicks from Scotland ? Well, in the bowels of that report somewhere, it suggests juveniles were at increased risk in unoccupied and otherwise ideal looking Scottish territories, due to the fact previous adult occupants had frequently disappeared in those veryy same locations due to deliberate use of poison bait. Maybe SNH felt a new population of goldens somewhere else in the British Isles would be good, and the youngsters would stand a good chance of survival in Ireland ? I'm assuming they were aware of the gamekeeper problem in Scotland well before their 2008 report became public. To be honest with you Mickey, I think the Donegal project is based on sound thinking. It spreads the risk considerably. Think if an avian disease struck Scotland - wouldn't it be a good idea to have another population established somewhere ? In these terms, its simply an species 'insurance policy' if you will - reducing the risks associated with putting 'all the eggs in one regional basket'. Also - we're only just seeing the Donegal population begin to produce young, so wouldn't it be a shame to pull the plug now when the investment is just starting to produce tangible results ? Finally, as there's practically nothing by way of managed grousemoor in Ireland, the persecution issue really should (in theory) be less of a problem there. Who knows what's best - it's very easy to be critical of SNH, but I think they're doing their level best to ensure goldens are protected in difficult circumstances. I vote we support 'em !

I vote we support them too! And how about sending some to the Lake District and Wales.

[Gozzhawk]

CAn you tell me ( I havent read whole thread , will do tomorrow) if persecution , ie poisoning is mentioned as such a large threat (obviously carcasses tested) what percentage is this of other confirmed deaths , ie natural causes/unknown , windfarms , disease , killed by accident (possible adult eagle)???
Just seem to be a lot of facts banded about regarding Raptors ( all wildlife) without REAL hard evidence being presented.

[Gozzhawk]

regarding scotland

[Harrisii]

CAn you tell me ( I havent read whole thread , will do tomorrow) if persecution , ie poisoning is mentioned as such a large threat (obviously carcasses tested) what percentage is this of other confirmed deaths , ie natural causes/unknown , windfarms , disease , killed by accident (possible adult eagle)???
Just seem to be a lot of facts banded about regarding Raptors ( all wildlife) without REAL hard evidence being presented.

i dont know the percentages of eagles poisoned in comparison with say, natural mortality or other accidental deaths, but we cant compare natural mortality, or accidental deaths or freak accidents with deliberate poisoning by who-ever. it is a real threat. its a very real threat.

the reason these suspicious deaths are known about so much is that every breeding pair of goldies is recorded, watched and known about.
when one disapears or is found it would be tested for poisons. bear in mind its unlikely that a raptor would be far from the bait or without other casualties such as corvids near by, (although not always). a BOP which dies of natural causes would quickly disapear. ie: eaten by whatever. corvids, other bop. etc. one which is poisoned is unlikely to disapear so easily and the scavengers which feed from it likely to succum also.
so a BOP which is poisoned could lie there for a long time where as a natural death will quickly disapear.

several BOP species are found poisoned in such ways regularly.
you cant be doubting that it goes on and so frequently, surely....?

[Thistle]

CAn you tell me ( I havent read whole thread , will do tomorrow) if persecution , ie poisoning is mentioned as such a large threat (obviously carcasses tested) what percentage is this of other confirmed deaths , ie natural causes/unknown , windfarms , disease , killed by accident (possible adult eagle)???
Just seem to be a lot of facts banded about regarding Raptors ( all wildlife) without REAL hard evidence being presented.

Good grief - sounds like Holocaust denial. Strongly suggest if you wish to contribute usefully to this discussion, that you DO read some hard evidence. It IS available in published papers in several of the avian and raptor journals. In this case, the latest SNH findings have taken considerable time and effort to collect on the part of the research team. Persecution of goldens by poison bait laid on managed grousemoor IS happening in Scotland. Its a fact, and the miserable practice will continue to happen to BOP both there and elsewhere by gamekeepers intent on killing goldens, by pheasant pluckers sons, by people keeping chickens, or quail, or partridge whatever - unless some serious committment is made to prevent it. The findings of the SNH report we're talking about here - are NOT just based on damned rumour or heresay. The findings are the evidence based researchs finding of an internationally respected research team. People (and not just you, Gozzhawk) need to open their eyes to what's going on. By all means read the rest of this thread, but for a real easy primer of what's happening to golden populations in Scotland today read the SNH report (link below) carefully, line by line. Then come back to me if you dare, and ask me to present my 'hard evidence ?'

http://www.snh.org.uk/pdfs/publicati...rt%20No193.pdf

[MickeyDredd]

The thing is though that there is very rarely an eagle carcase found, whether that is due to remote location or what I dont know. Look at the publicity surrounding the dead eagle this thread relates to - how often do we see such publicity, very very rarely. That tends to suggest that these watched eagles disappear and the reason is put down to speculation they are dead and the cause was poison, its like the RSPB saying peregrine chicks have disappeared from a nestledge so it is falconers who have stolen them.

in the bowels of that report somewhere, it suggests juveniles were at increased risk in unoccupied and otherwise ideal looking Scottish territories, due to the fact previous adult occupants had frequently disappeared in those veryy same locations due to deliberate use of poison bait.



the reason these suspicious deaths are known about so much is that every breeding pair of goldies is recorded, watched and known about.
when one disapears or is found it would be tested for poisons.

[MickeyDredd]

I wonder if GPS tracking relocated Scottish eagles into these Eastern/Highland areas might help to actually prove the poisoning of eagles in these areas. If the signal became static then that would suggest the bird was dead and the relevent authorities could recover the body whilst still very fresh so the toxin tests could be done very quickly and it would indisputably prove that the eagle was poisoned on a specific estate. The estate then wouldnt have a leg to stand on and could be hit hard.

Just a thought.

Well, in the bowels of that report somewhere, it suggests juveniles were at increased risk in unoccupied and otherwise ideal looking Scottish territories, due to the fact previous adult occupants had frequently disappeared in those veryy same locations due to deliberate use of poison bait.

[Gozzhawk]

Thistle , my heart is in the hills , I wholly condemn any persecution. I all asked for was some facts to read.
It interests me that deaths are not just from poisoning and i would like to know more, I am not a reactionary as you seem to be ............

Conservation work carried out by colleagues of mine on species other than eagles throws up interesting facts (like sakers raising an upland buzzard to fledging) , I just like to have facts in front of me. Sorry if this upsets your sensibilities.

I imagine all true Falconers are conservationists.

[Thistle]

The thing is though that there is very rarely an eagle carcase found, whether that is due to remote location or what I dont know. Look at the publicity surrounding the dead eagle this thread relates to - how often do we see such publicity, very very rarely. That tends to suggest that these watched eagles disappear and the reason is put down to speculation they are dead and the cause was poison, its like the RSPB saying peregrine chicks have disappeared from a nestledge so it is falconers who have stolen them.

Sorry Mickey, well made point about 'it not happening often'. And you're right - thankfully we don't hear about dead eagles being found that often - but that's not to say it ain't happening. There's no news story if there's no carcass - is there ? Also, I don't think our discussion is about just one poisoned eagle as you suggest, or is it ? For me, this relates to a more serious and ongoing problem, one that if we choose to ignore will eventually (make no mistake) see the eradication of the golden from Scotland altogether, as surely as it has become regionally extinct in other parts of the UK. That is, of course unless the current downward trend is halted. Let's take a brief look at some of what the SNH have to say :

Despite more than 60 years of statutory protection, some golden eagles are still killed
illegally each year in Britain (e.g. RSPB, 2001, 2003). The commonest method of
persecution is by poisoning which may or may not be targeted at raptors, including
golden eagles. Deliberate persecution by shooting and trapping of eagles can still also
occur, but is probably more difficult to detect. Destruction of nests or nest contents, or other interference with breeding attempts through deliberate disturbance may also occur (e.g. Watson & Dennis, 1992; Watson, 1997; Scottish Raptor Study Groups, 1997). For many years persecution has been considered a factor limiting the distribution and abundance of golden eagles in Scotland, with grouse moor management strongly implicated in its perpetration (e.g. Sandeman, 1957; Brown, 1976; Love, 1983; Newton,1994; Green, 1996; Scottish Raptor Study Groups, 1997; Watson, 1997; UK Raptor Working Group, 2000; Thompson et al., 2003). Despite such previous work, rigorous and geographically explicit quantification of the potential links between persecution and golden eagle ecology had not been conducted prior to our research.

[Thistle]

Apologies for the rant Gozz - I appreciate what you're saying. The subject just makes my blood boil, that all ! No offence intended, mate.

Yes, Mickey - right on. If we could GPS tag ALL of these critters and track movement, welfare, and collect evidence from the eagle disappearances then it would help solve the problem. But as we agreed earlier - the costs would be prohibitive. Don't know how to tackle the problem - other than encourage discussion about the issue - and raise awareness by convincing the sceptics there is a problem. lol

[MickeyDredd]

Not at all, I'm merely stating that if an eagle carcase is found then the news should quite rightly be plastered all over the press and media and suggesting that given the coverage the subject of this thread was given then if so many eagles are being poisoned as suggested then why is the media not awash with the stories? I'll think you will find it is because very few carcasses are found.

That raptors are poisoned, there is no doubt, whether specifically or indirectly. My issue, and that of many others is that in the case of eagles especially there is little or no PROOF that a missing eagle has been poisoned. I also dont accept the fact that because there is a suitable habitat that there should be an eagle in residence, it simply doesnt work that way. Much of the study work carried out on difficult to monitor species has a large degree of assumption involved as I have witnessed with another species and I have personally witnessed behaviours completely at odds, or at least misinterpreted, with what official raptor/nature bodies have written in articles and books.

I would also say that disturbance of breeding eagles is actually more often than not due to hill walkers and rock climbers these days, there is even a specific programme in place to warn rockclimbers not to climb certain crags at certain times of year already in place, but I'm not sure how well the warnings are heeded

Regards
MD.

Also, I don't think our discussion is about just one poisoned eagle as you suggest, or is it ?

[MickeyDredd]

Depends what value the scottish Government really put on the golden eagle, I'm sure they are good at chucking money about when it suits them ;):D


Yes, Mickey - right on. If we could GPS tag ALL of these critters and track movement, welfare, and collect evidence from the eagle disappearances then it would help solve the problem. But as we agreed earlier - the costs would be prohibitive.

[Thistle]

Not at all, I'm merely stating that if an eagle carcase is found then the news should quite rightly be plastered all over the press and media and suggesting that given the coverage the subject of this thread was given then if so many eagles are being poisoned as suggested then why is the media not awash with the stories? I'll think you will find it is because very few carcasses are found.

That raptors are poisoned, there is no doubt, whether specifically or indirectly. My issue, and that of many others is that in the case of eagles especially there is little or no PROOF that a missing eagle has been poisoned. I also dont accept the fact that because there is a suitable habitat that there should be an eagle in residence, it simply doesnt work that way. Much of the study work carried out on difficult to monitor species has a large degree of assumption involved as I have witnessed with another species and I have personally witnessed behaviours completely at odds, or at least misinterpreted, with what official raptor/nature bodies have written in articles and books.

I would also say that disturbance of breeding eagles is actually more often than not due to hill walkers and rock climbers these days, there is even a specific programme in place to warn rockclimbers not to climb certain crags at certain times of year already in place, but I'm not sure how well the warnings are heeded


Cannot disagree with what you're saying here, Mickey. Does beg the question though, accepting eagle numbers are down as to whether some carcasses have been quietly disposed of ? And the disturbance issue isn't helped I guess by the ambition of so many healthy minded outdoors types to climb.. what is it, 200 Scots hills and peaks ? Can't recall the name of the challenge right now - inspired originally by books of some 19th century fella, who drew all sorts of maps of the hills as he clambered up'em ?

[Gozzhawk]

There is a discussion on a webring at the moment about the threat to Goldies from wind turbines , and peole trying to halt them being built.
We are talking about deliberate persecution , people are being caught and punished , just for having some poisons.
There is only one problem I have with the discussion of grouse moor management and poisoning .....where do grouse hawkers fly? Are we saying that these people by association are akin to the poisoners?
All you can do is become a vouluntary member of Scottish Raptor Study Groups , spend your free time patrolling sites , possibly investing to specific projects on tracing dispersal of young , shouldnt be too difficult to monitor sedentary pairs.

The problem I can see with conservation of SPECIFIC SPECIES , as opposed to HABITAT , is that nothing really gets done until something is threatened or endengered , in a global context.

The Goldie is widely used in Falconry , it reminds me of why I am doing what I do now ....i want to spend my life ACTIVELY involved in the conservation of species and habitat. I challenge anyone calling themselves FALCONERS to do the same . protect what you love by being involved.
Great time for peole to try this is next year through the moult , instead of being on here talking nonsense go out and do something positive !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

OK , my rant over , I feel all better now!!

[Alan G]

Ian Clark, Director of the Scottish Association for Country Sports (SACS), has asked me to make the flowing post on his behalf:

“I have watched this thread and similar threads on other forum sites with genuine interest, as between SACS and the Scottish Gamekeepers Association we represent almost all of the gamekeepers in Scotland AND most of the other country sports enthusiasts, including our many falconry members.

There has been a great deal of misinformation published about this tragic case in the Borders, much of it deliberately generated by the RSPB.

Their immediate reaction was to rush into the press, accusing the owner of the estate where the bird was found of deliberate wildlife crime and trying to whip the public into a frenzy against gamekeepers. This is their normal policy, because they detest shooting in any form.

I meet their representatives regularly, and their narrow views go beyond shooting into the whole concept of killing birds for sport, and this will include falconry, if they were ever able to dispose of shooting, so bear that in mind when you read anything they publish. They are masters of propaganda and disinformation, and their glossy publications are calculated to misrepresent the facts in the way that suits them best.

In this case, the eagle had been poisoned, of course, but what was not made clear or public is that the eagles had been breeding on that estate for many years, and were being actively protected by the estate owner and his keepers. Moreover, almost immediately after the poisoning, the remaining bird found a new mate, and this year, they have successfully reared young in the same nest, under the protection of the Landowner.

I have read the whole report mentioned - written by Professor Des Thomson, a senior SNH employee, and while much of the report is excellent, there are a number of points which Des either did not consider, or chose not to include.

I am, on behalf of SACS, a member of the Moorland Forum, which is tasked with advising the Scottish Executive and SNH on anything in connection with the Scottish Uplands. The report will be considered, together with all of the other evidence and views, and given the weight the Forum thinks it deserves in the overall picture on raptors - and that weight will take into consideration the views of country sportsmen as well as the purely theoretical views of the academics and bird charities.

Perhaps it would be of interest if I take the text of the part of the report quoted in this thread and add a commentary, to demonstrate that things are not as cut and dried as they could seem from the report? My additional comments are in a different typeface for easy reading:-

A number of lines of evidence indicated that illegal persecution of eagles, principally associated with grouse moor management in the central and eastern Highlands, is the most severe constraint on Scottish golden eagles. (‘A number of lines’ means nothing without knowing what these lines were and how many other lines indicated contrary evidence. The wording carefully says that ‘illegal persecution’ is associated with grouse moor management, not that anyone is deliberately poisoning eagles. In fact there is no reason for anyone to poison eagles - their presence on a grouse moor is a positive advantage to keepers in that they will not tolerate harries or buzzards, which take a FAR heavier toll of grouse and other birds, in the same territory. The constant repetition of ‘illegal persecution’ is a favorite trick of the RSPB - there is no such thing as legal persecution - this just makes it sound worse.



Ordinary common sense, backed up by face to face discussions with keepers, confirms that no one ever sets out to poison eagles (or kites, for that matter) - any cases of eagle poisoning are accidental, when they take bait set for other birds. The setting of poison bait is illegal and deplored by all responsible sportsmen and keepers. In one view, the only reason poison is used is that there is currently no legal way for raptors to be managed where this is felt necessary, and poison may be the way least likely to be detected.



To claim that this (perhaps carefully selected) evidence is the most severe constraint on the numbers of eagles is not backed up by science - the main food supply for eagles is of course Blue Hares, which are declining dramatically in many areas, and scientific research is now being done on the hare populations to try to find out what is causing the decline in numbers. Sadly, this is not clear from the report, and neither is the fact, inconveniently published this week by the National Farmers Union (Scotland), that the hill sheep population in the north and west of Scotland, has declined by up to 60% in some areas. This could suggest that there would also be a 60% reduction in the lamb and sheep carrion available for eagles - their other main food source.


These lines of evidence, based on population modelling and analyses using a Geographical Information System (GIS) are as follows: To base an ecological report that purports to be definitive on ‘population modelling’, statistical analysis and GPS is in my view dangerous, as is any report on countryside matters which is carried out largely from behind a desk. The facts, as opposed to statistical guesswork, are available if anyone takes the trouble to look for them.


a) As carrion feeders, golden eagles are particularly vulnerable to poisoned bait. Records of the illegal use of poisoned baits were significantly associated with grouse moors; both nationally and within those regions where grouse moors predominated as a land-use (Figure 5). This is potentially misleading again - the type of landscape occupied by eagles as breeding territories is identical to the type of landscape used for grouse shooting. This really only means that cases of eagle poisoning are generally found where eagles live! There was no evidence of a decline in records of poisoning on grouse moors between 1981 and 2000, even though poisoning incidents had declined in upland areas away from grouse moors; This conveniently ignores the fact that since 2000, EIGHT years ago, the figures have changed completely. It also refers to ‘no evidence of a decline in records of poisoning’, as opposed to poisoning. The last eight years have seen a huge upsurge in the recording of wildlife crime and a new impetus to deal with it effectively in the Scottish Executive, which is fully supported by SACS and the SGA.


b) Records of illegal persecution of golden eagles (including poisoning, trapping, shooting) were also more common in those regions where grouse moor management predominated; In other words, as mentioned above, the incidents happen where the eagles live. Would anyone expect to find an incident of eagle-poisoning in the middle of a city?

c) There was no consistent or strong evidence of associations between territory vacancies and constraints other than persecution in these regions; This of course does not mean there was no evidence to the contrary; neither does it mean that there was conclusive or even compelling evidence to confirm that persecution was the cause of any vacancies.


d) Persecution (assessed on the basis of the distribution of poisoning incidents) was associated (Note - associated with’, not ‘responsible for’) with a lowering in the age of first breeding, a greater number of territory vacancies, and the use of territories by non-breeding immature eagles. The evidence indicates that persecution was reducing survival, constraining the distribution, and was probably creating ecological ‘traps’ by attracting dispersing immature eagles into areas of apparently suitable habitat that were unoccupied because previous residents had been killed. Again, the use of ‘probably’ suggests that this is conjecture, not based on reliable science. In one view, whether an eagle territory is occupied or not, and why it was vacated, will depend on the availability of a current adequate food supply for the eagles far more than anything else.




Please accept my apologies for what looks like a small novel rather than a post, but I think that it is important that all of us who are involved in country sports of ANY kind know how to read documents such as this report and see them for what they are - a report, produced by a person or organisation, for a specific purpose. The content of the report, just as with my comments above, will be designed to convince people that the author’s views are correct. Never fall into the old trap ‘If it’s in the papers, it must be true’!



The bottom line here is that SACS, and I hope all of the reputable country sports organisations, will not condone wildlife crime of any kind. We are working closely with the Executive in Scotland to develop realistic ways to solve raptor/human conflicts, and when we are finally successful, there will be no reason for wildlife crime and it will become a thing of the past.”



Ian Clark

Director, SACS, 3 August 2008

[Thistle]

I don't buy the arguments presented by Mr Clark in his last post at all. Here is an earlier statement from Mr Ian Clark of SACS posted (#311) on this forum a while ago, dated 28/8/07. He said :

'I suspect that the use of poisons, usually emotively described as ‘indiscriminate’ by the press, are only used as a last resort - since there is no legal way to do what people genuinely believe needs to be done. At a practical level, to place a doped rabbit carcass in a remote location is possibly only chosen as the method least likely to be discovered. The need for this kind of approach would be completely removed, if there were legal methods of dealing with an individual bird that is causing a problem - I am confident that if there were legal methods available, no responsible countryman would resort to the use of poison.'

Correct me if I've read this wrong. But in the statement above isn't Mr Ian Clark, who represents gamekeepers interests actually justifying here the illegal use of poisons by some of his membership to control what he calls individual 'problem' BOP in the field ?

[FlyFisher]

I don't buy this either.

Is he saying its ok to use such methods as long as you do it out of the way and dont get caught:x

In an earlier post it says that carbofuran has been banned since 2001 so surely it is illegal to even posses it never mind use it.

[Gozzhawk]

Looks like this is now going to be an us and them thread as always happens when these threads run for so long.
I do not condone poisoning .
I do not support RSPB .
I look at facts for myself , politics aside.
Countries where Faclonry is not legal and shooting of 'pest' birds is under license seems contradictory to conservation.
I do not know enough about grouse management to comment more on this topic.

All I do know is that there are many factors effecting Raptor population trends. Unforunately like anything else that can be used as a tool , figures and facts will be quoted by those who have an agenda. Studies are often conducted in all scientific fields using funds from certain organisations , using their own scientists.................Remember GLOBAL WARMING DOES NOT EXIST>

Eagles will be poisoned , they will die in turbines , habitat will be lost , nests will be disturbed by walkers , natural deaths will occur and no record will be made .
No solution will be easy . Banning shooting will not help , banning Falconry will not help , nor will keeping climbers and walkers off the land . Green conservation projects also need a place in the modern world..........
What will help is unbiased recording of facts , and access to them

[Drake]

If 70-80% of falcons die in their first year, what is the first year mortality rate in golden eagles?

[Hatchero]

If 70-80% of falcons die in their first year, what is the first year mortality rate in golden eagles?

not high enough in my part of the world. i only wish we could ship our eagles over to you guys--as many as you want.
:mad:

[Harrisii]

Ordinary common sense, backed up by face to face discussions with keepers, confirms that no one ever sets out to poison eagles (or kites, for that matter) - any cases of eagle poisoning are accidental, when they take bait set for other birds. The setting of poison bait is illegal and deplored by all responsible sportsmen and keepers.

In one view, the only reason poison is used is that there is currently no legal way for raptors to be managed where this is felt necessary, and poison may be the way least likely to be detected.



face to face discussions with keepers? then you know it happens and you are aware it goes on but refute the claims, stating The setting of poison bait is illegal and deplored by all responsible sportsmen and keepers.
Are these face to face discussions held with keepers who are members of your organisation? seriously?

the only reason poison is used is that there is currently no legal way for raptors to be managed.
so you basically want a system where they could be shot, therefore stopping poisoning and making everything legal.

you have put a post here side swiping the SNH report and have post some really rediculous stuff.
this is a falconry forum where the majority have a passion for BOP but also an understanding and respect for field sports, but you are alienating youself with talk of raptor management and dismissing the findings.

you know for a fact illegal poisoning goes on, you know for a fact there are keepers out there doing it but you cannot justify it by saying face to face discussions with keepers, confirms that no one ever sets out to poison eagles (or kites, for that matter).

whether a bait is set for a buzzard and accidentaly kills an eagle is completely irelevant. it happens.

i cannot go along with this either. sorry.

[HallBeck]

not high enough in my part of the world. i only wish we could ship our eagles over to you guys--as many as you want.
:mad:

Put me down for a couple of pairs!

[Alan G]

Ian Clark replies:



My personal position is that I do not want to see any birds of prey killed - maybe I didn’t make this clear. I do not agree with poisoning under any circumstances, and in my experience, neither do the vast majority of countrymen, including keepers.


What I actually said was that on the occasions where this despicable tactic is used, the most likely reason for that is that it would be thought by the user to be the best way of avoiding being caught by police, because it would be less visible than traps. That is what the ‘face-to-face’ discussions with keepers confirmed - not that they do it!


When I speak about ‘raptor management’, I mean exactly that - to prevent conflict, a way must be found of removing a problem bird from the situation where it is causing problems. This applies to raptors in the same way that it applies to any other bird or animal which causes serious problems to society.


My personal aim, and what I am trying to achieve on behalf of SACS members on BOTH sides of the argument, is that specific raptors which cause a genuine problem can be lawfully caught unharmed and (ideally) passed on to falconers or austringers for use in flying and/or breeding. I’m well aware of the potential benefits to our wild stock of raptors if this approach were to be followed, and the benefits to falconry and falconers.


Finally, and on a lighter note, I did not take a sideswipe at the report - I gave it both barrels, because that is what I think it deserves. My cynical comments were only on the small part that had been quoted - the original document is much bigger and to my mind, having read it all, it is full of lies, damned lies and statistics.


I trash it in public, in the media and in our members’ magazine, because that is what I genuinely think it deserves :)


Ian Clark

Director, SACS

[Thistle]

You have made your position perfectly clear Mr Clark. You describe yourself and your membership as’countrymen’ yet clearly care little about conservation. You represent a group of people whose sole interest in birds is limited to shooting them. That’s hardly sporting is it ? The Nazis did such things to gypsies and Jews 60 years ago and then tried to deny it ever happened. Sounds familiar. No sir, I don’t buy your prostestations of innocence at all. You are correct however about one thing. The SNH report IS excellent based as it is on sound research conducted over a considerable period of time. It reveals a major problem worthy of our contempt – those gamekeeper’s land management practice which includes the use of poisons to remove wild BOP. Don’t be mistaken into thinking that other IFF members polite silence means they have no opinion - or else support, or even believe your incredulous position Mr Clark. I don’t think there are many people here who do. Your further explanation, denials and contradictory statements merely compound your wretched position.

There is simply no excusing the use of poison in any circumstances – particularly not for removing ‘problem birds of prey’ as you have described them, whatever the species, whatever the circumstance. I will go further and suggest sir – that there is no excusing the removal of ANY wild bird by its extermination. Some (maybe not all) of your members sir are the problem. The birds of prey are simply feeding themselves and their young. To kill eagles or other BOP for the sake of a few easily bred gamebirds is not only illegal, it is repugnant to many decent thinking people on this forum. You will recall I quoted you above. I will do so again, if only to illustrate and remind other IFF members the seriousness of this debate and what has gone before. Remember we are talking about the survival of the endangered golden eagle in the wild. You said :

'I suspect that the use of poisons, usually emotively described as ‘indiscriminate’ by the press, are only used as a last resort - since there is no legal way to do what people genuinely believe needs to be done. At a practical level, to place a doped rabbit carcass in a remote location is possibly only chosen as the method least likely to be discovered. The need for this kind of approach would be completely removed, if there were legal methods of dealing with an individual bird that is causing a problem - I am confident that if there were legal methods available, no responsible countryman would resort to the use of poison.'


In fairness, I believe you have spoken honestly and in a refreshingly open manner in the above statement regarding many gamekeeper’s current practice in Scotland. You see, unlike SNH researchers I do not sit behind a desk pushing a pen. So, I KNOW what you’re saying above is correct. It is an abhorrent practice and must stop. I do not accept your denials on behalf of your membership. If I have made that clear to the IFF membership and yourself, then I will have succeeded in my objective. It is nice to see I have considerable support. I agree wholeheartedly with Harrisii’s lucid observations. As he said :

..this is a falconry forum where the majority have a passion for BOP but also an understanding and respect for field sports, but you are alienating yourself with talk of raptor management and dismissing the findings. You know for a fact illegal poisoning goes on, you know for a fact there are keepers out there doing it ....whether a bait is set for a buzzard and accidentally kills an eagle is completely irrelevant. It happens.
i cannot go along with this either. sorry.

Thank you Harrisii, for articulating in plain language what many of us feel. I’m not sorry at all if Mr Clark feels uncomfortable addressing this forum. He should feel uncomfortable. He doesn’t fly birds of prey, so he doesn’t understand how people feel for them here. And he’s asking us for the right to remove (you can read destroy here) them ? No, let’s understand, this gentleman represents people who’d actually like a free licence to shoot BOP. Are you going to support this guy ? Please fellas don’t be fooled into thinking they’d capture them live. That’s rubbish. Gamekeepers are notoriously efficient in their management practice, and they’d do their repugnant work the most economical way. They’d shoot ‘em.

Mr Clark has little interest in the welfare of wild BOP. Why should he ? He probably doesn’t even know how long it takes a golden to breed. He couldn’t care less. So what if the ‘problem bird’ happens to be endangered and enjoys legal protection ? We’ll still kill ‘em , but we’ll do it quietly so no one catches us. (Like how ? Its against the law) We’ll do it quietly by laying an anonymous poison bait. But fellas here’s an idea - wouldn’t it be better if we could persuade the IFF to support our shooting ‘em ? Then it’d be legal like wouldn’t it ?

Let’s be quite clear on this. At present it remains illegal to lay poison bait in open places – and grousemoors are as open as they come. The law is there for good reason. To provide protection to wild birds, our dogs, and our children against Mr Clark’s unpleasant brand of anonymous gun toting poisonous countrymen. It IS necessary to take a stand and unfortunately take sides on this issue. The choice is yours.

Support Mr Clark in his campaign to obtain a licence to dispose of wild BOP and the golden will disappear for sure along with many other of his ‘problem’ birds of prey. Such people that support the removal of wild birds by whatever means - don’t deserve our support. On the contrary, these people deserve our contempt and on conviction of involvement in illegal use of poison bait - a lengthy prison term to boot.

[HallBeck]

Good post Thistle. Just to add:-

This applies to raptors in the same way that it applies to any other bird or animal which causes serious problems to society.
I don't think that a "problem" eagle on a remote grouse moor is classed as causing serious problems to society!! If it was living in a city centre and preying on school kids maybe!

[Graham Irving]

If 70-80% of falcons die in their first year, what is the first year mortality rate in golden eagles?

The numbers quoted by the RSPB are that about 70% die before reaching breeding age, thats quite a few eagles!

Graham

[DerekHol]

Unfortunatly a large number of shooters can't or wont differentiate, or be able to tell what any BoP looks like. Unfortunatly its a case of "If it flys shoot it"
Derek

[Harrisii]

you have made your position perfectly clear mr clark. You describe yourself and your membership as’countrymen’ yet clearly care little about conservation. You represent a group of people whose sole interest in birds is limited to shooting them. That’s hardly sporting is it ? The nazis did such things to gypsies and jews 60 years ago and then tried to deny it ever happened. Sounds familiar. No sir, i don’t buy your prostestations of innocence at all. You are correct however about one thing. The snh report is excellent based as it is on sound research conducted over a considerable period of time. It reveals a major problem worthy of our contempt – those gamekeeper’s land management practice which includes the use of poisons to remove wild bop. Don’t be mistaken into thinking that other iff members polite silence means they have no opinion - or else support, or even believe your incredulous position mr clark. I don’t think there are many people here who do. Your further explanation, denials and contradictory statements merely compound your wretched position.

there is simply no excusing the use of poison in any circumstances – particularly not for removing ‘problem birds of prey’ as you have described them, whatever the species, whatever the circumstance. I will go further and suggest sir – that there is no excusing the removal of any wild bird by its extermination. Some (maybe not all) of your members sir are the problem. The birds of prey are simply feeding themselves and their young. To kill eagles or other bop for the sake of a few easily bred gamebirds is not only illegal, it is repugnant to many decent thinking people on this forum. You will recall i quoted you above. I will do so again, if only to illustrate and remind other iff members the seriousness of this debate and what has gone before. Remember we are talking about the survival of the endangered golden eagle in the wild. You said :

'i suspect that the use of poisons, usually emotively described as ‘indiscriminate’ by the press, are only used as a last resort - since there is no legal way to do what people genuinely believe needs to be done. At a practical level, to place a doped rabbit carcass in a remote location is possibly only chosen as the method least likely to be discovered. The need for this kind of approach would be completely removed, if there were legal methods of dealing with an individual bird that is causing a problem - i am confident that if there were legal methods available, no responsible countryman would resort to the use of poison.'


in fairness, i believe you have spoken honestly and in a refreshingly open manner in the above statement regarding many gamekeeper’s current practice in scotland. You see, unlike snh researchers i do not sit behind a desk pushing a pen. So, i know what you’re saying above is correct. It is an abhorrent practice and must stop. I do not accept your denials on behalf of your membership. If i have made that clear to the iff membership and yourself, then i will have succeeded in my objective. It is nice to see i have considerable support. I agree wholeheartedly with harrisii’s lucid observations. As he said :


thank you harrisii, for articulating in plain language what many of us feel. I’m not sorry at all if mr clark feels uncomfortable addressing this forum. He should feel uncomfortable. He doesn’t fly birds of prey, so he doesn’t understand how people feel for them here. And he’s asking us for the right to remove (you can read destroy here) them ? No, let’s understand, this gentleman represents people who’d actually like a free licence to shoot bop. Are you going to support this guy ? Please fellas don’t be fooled into thinking they’d capture them live. That’s rubbish. Gamekeepers are notoriously efficient in their management practice, and they’d do their repugnant work the most economical way. They’d shoot ‘em.

mr clark has little interest in the welfare of wild bop. Why should he ? He probably doesn’t even know how long it takes a golden to breed. He couldn’t care less. So what if the ‘problem bird’ happens to be endangered and enjoys legal protection ? We’ll still kill ‘em , but we’ll do it quietly so no one catches us. (like how ? Its against the law) we’ll do it quietly by laying an anonymous poison bait. But fellas here’s an idea - wouldn’t it be better if we could persuade the iff to support our shooting ‘em ? Then it’d be legal like wouldn’t it ?

let’s be quite clear on this. At present it remains illegal to lay poison bait in open places – and grousemoors are as open as they come. The law is there for good reason. To provide protection to wild birds, our dogs, and our children against mr clark’s unpleasant brand of anonymous gun toting poisonous countrymen. It is necessary to take a stand and unfortunately take sides on this issue. The choice is yours.

support mr clark in his campaign to obtain a licence to dispose of wild bop and the golden will disappear for sure along with many other of his ‘problem’ birds of prey. Such people that support the removal of wild birds by whatever means - don’t deserve our support. On the contrary, these people deserve our contempt and on conviction of involvement in illegal use of poison bait - a lengthy prison term to boot.



i applaude.

[Eagleseeker]

Ian Clark, Director of the Scottish Association for Country Sports (SACS), has asked me to make the flowing post on his behalf:

“I have watched this thread and similar threads on other forum sites with genuine interest, as between SACS and the Scottish Gamekeepers Association we represent almost all of the gamekeepers in Scotland AND most of the other country sports enthusiasts, including our many falconry members.

There has been a great deal of misinformation published about this tragic case in the Borders, much of it deliberately generated by the RSPB.

Their immediate reaction was to rush into the press, accusing the owner of the estate where the bird was found of deliberate wildlife crime and trying to whip the public into a frenzy against gamekeepers. This is their normal policy, because they detest shooting in any form.

I meet their representatives regularly, and their narrow views go beyond shooting into the whole concept of killing birds for sport, and this will include falconry, if they were ever able to dispose of shooting, so bear that in mind when you read anything they publish. They are masters of propaganda and disinformation, and their glossy publications are calculated to misrepresent the facts in the way that suits them best.

Ian Clark

Director, SACS, 3 August 2008

Mr Clark et al,

It is way too easy to get emotively involved in this topic. But let us not forget that without the efforts of the shooting fraternity we all would be very hard pressed to find good numbers of quarry for hawking days.

It is sad that in these times that old perceptions about birds of prey still exist. Personally I find it very odd that 20 years ago one of the very best Grouse moors held 2 pairs of Eagle and 5 pairs of Peregrine. That landowner and his keepers clearly didn't have any "problem" birds of prey!

It would be interesting to know how a "problem" bird is defined?

Back in the 80's and 90's I fought a battle for many years with SHO, RSPB and the then NCC for a licence to take an Eagle. I suggested taking an eyass from where sibling rivalry was known to be consistently fatal. Also potentially trapping a "rogue" bird where gamekeepers/shepherds might resort to killing. Needless to say all of my arguments were dismissed no matter how well presented.

It is NO coincidence that any wildlife management proposals involving licensing by the RSPB were/are always rubber stamped. Including the "legal" poisoning of 250,000 (yes 1/4 million) gulls off the west coast of Scotland.

It is not often I would turn to the USA for common sense, but even they permit the trapping of such birds! It will NEVER happen here, or at least not with those with financial gain pulling the strings of the appropriate authority.

Either way Mr Clark poisoning is still not the answer.

[LiamBaber]

i hope they cut there eyes out and replace them with there B**ls the bloody t**ts !

[HallBeck]

i hope they cut there eyes out and replace them with there B**ls the bloody t**ts !

Its always a pleasure to read a well worded and eloquent post. Truly a master of the English language

[LiamBaber]

Its always a pleasure to read a well worded and eloquent post. Truly a master of the English language

lol im annoyed with birds that die due to error caused by people if it has died by naturel cause's its fine :)

[HallBeck]

You don't do anyone any favours with posts like that.

[LiamBaber]

You don't do anyone any favours with posts like that.
ok im just annoyed at it :evil:

[MKay]

anti's were willing to dig up grandma huntingtons remains and steal them.

i wonder if they would be willing to poison a grouse carcase and plant it as evidence of foul play without thinking of the potential for it to do its intended job. half of them are smashed out of there heads 90% of the time.

[Rowan]

One of the only breeding pair of golden eagles in the Scottish Borders has been killed by poison.

The bird was found on Sunday and tests have confirmed that the banned substance carbofuran was involved.

The Scottish RSPB has offered a reward of £1,000 to anyone who can help provide information about the case.


Full Article

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/south_of_scotland/6944017.stm


I hope they cut the B**ls of who ever is responsible! :evil:


It was confirmed on the Scottish News, that it was a laced Grouse that was used.why such a small reward?check it out.obvious really.

[Alan G]

why such a small reward?check it out.obvious really.

The Scottish RSPB was offering £1000, but through the members and some of the professional breeders/business people on here, this was upped to near enough £10,000 reward money.

[Thistle]

Gamekeeper escapes jail over traps
Source : Telegraph - 3rd January 2009

'A gamekeeper has escaped jail after admitting using an illegal trap and allowing his assistant to illegally catch birds of prey. Roger Fenton, 34, of Elvington, North Yorks, was given a sentance of three months' jail, suspended for 12 months, at Telford magistrates' court. The former head gamekeeper on the Kempton Estate in Shropshire pleaded guilty to using a spring trap and permitting assistant keeper Kyle Burden to use a cage trap baited with a Raven to illegally catch birds of prey. The court heard that the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds was contacted by two seasonal gamekeepers employed at Kempton who reported the illegal killing of protected wildlife including buzzards and badgers. RSPB investigators went to the estate on July 16 last year where they found a cage trap'.

Personal observations ?

Pity about such a lenient sentence - but credit has to be given where credit's due. The actions of the two responsible gamekeepers who in the above case found the courage to make a stand against this practice has to be applauded. And on a personal level - clearly I have been wrong in tarring the entire gamekeeping fraternity with the same brush myself in the past.

The above article clearly demonstrates some gamekeepers are indeed wildlife conservationists (like many people here) and capable of recognising wilful and unnecessary cruelty when they see it. I am encouraged to see this illustration of a profession policing it's own. It follows maybe Mr Clark was right. Maybe gamekeepers are not all bad.

Oh, I nearly forgot.
Happy New Year everyone.

[Chris T]

made me laugh

[birdbrain1966]

how can anybody kill such a great bird :roll:

i tell you what is world coming two :twisted:

[Harrisii]

Re: Golden Eagles in the Scottish Borders has been killed by Poison
made me laugh

maybe i have read this wrong but what on earth is that supposed to mean?

[Thistle]

Poisoning of Golden Eagles in Eire

Conservation minded members of the falconry forum will remember my vocal (and in some quarters unwelcome) protestations against a small fraternity who defend the abhorrent practice of 'managing' bop in the UK. Some of these people are prepared to go further and using methods such as lacing carcasses deliberately with poison. People here will be dismayed to know I am writing to (once again) voice my concerns on this issue to the IFF.

Many forums members will be familiar with the Golden Eagle reintroduction programme in Donegal Ireland. All is not well with the Irish reintroduction, despite one or two breeding successes. It seems the practice of deliberate poisoning - of Golden Eagles & other birds of prey - has reared its ugly head again. The Golden Eagle Trust in Eire reports there have been several incidents of deliberate poisoning lately. They also report this is widespread practice across Ireland.

Poisoning Petition

IFF members can help by signing the public petition against the practice & pledging your support calling for changes to the current poisoning legislation in Ireland. Anyone wishing to register their opposition to the current spate of poisoning can sign online - here is the link : www.goldeneagle.ie (http://www.goldeneagle.ie/)

I urge everyone who cares about eagle conservation - please add your name - it could make all the difference.

What follows below is quoted directly from the Golden Eagle Trust for your information.

Best regards to all,

Thistle.

Poison Killing Birds of Prey Across Éire

Efforts to restore Ireland's lost birds of prey have suffered more losses due to poisoning. Results from toxicology tests carried out at the State Laboratory in Cellbridge, Co. Kildare and at the SASA (Science and Advice for Scottish Agriculture) Laboratory in Edinburgh, Scotland have confirmed that a White-tailed Eagle, recovered dead, on 12th March, near the shore of Lough Lein, Killarney was poisoned with Carbofuran and a Red Kite found dead near Tiglin, County Wicklow, on the 16th March, was also confirmed to have been poisoned with Alphachloralose. These two deaths follow closely on the recent finding of a Golden Eagle, poisoned by Paraquat, in Co. Donegal on 19th February 2009. The fact that three separate poisons were used to kill three different species, found in three different counties, shows the full extent of the threat that poisons pose to Irish birds of prey. Clearly the unlawful use of poisoned meat baits is, unfortunately, still a countrywide practice.

The poisoned bird in Kerry is the fifth White-tailed Eagle, from the batch of 15 birds released in Killarney National Park in August 2007, to have been poisoned. The White-tailed Eagle that was killed was well traveled and was regarded as a flagship bird of the project. In September 2007, it visited the Blasket Islands and the Skelligs after its release and thrilled boatmen and tourists alike. Although it spent its first winter in Kerry, it spent last summer around Lough Neagh in Northern Ireland, before returning to Killarney in September 2008. Despite surviving all these travels, across numerous counties and over scores of Irish farms, it met its fate just a short distance from where it was released. It had apparently ingested part of a sheep carcass laced with poison.

The Golden Eagle poisoned in Donegal had eaten meat bait laced with Paraquat. Paraquat is a lethal weed killer, with no known antidote, and unfortunately has killed several people in the past. It is totally unacceptable that a substance, known to be poisonous to humans, should be left out in grazing areas and fields containing sheep and other animals. Scottish Natural Heritage, the statutory conservation authority of the Scottish Government, has called a full review of the Irish Golden Eagle reintroduction project export licence, which allows donor stock to be collected in Scotland, in light of this recent poisoning incident.

The Golden Eagle Trust and BirdWatch Ireland are calling for an urgent review of the laws governing the supply, storage, use and mis-use of poisons and the enforcement of these laws and regulations. Recent changes in legislation by the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, in January 2008, prohibits the use of meat baits in the control of birds. But the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food's Protection of Animals (Amendment) Act 1965 still allows, in certain restricted circumstances, the use of poison on meat baits to control foxes.

This legislation has been now been proven to be clearly in breach of Article 4 and Article 9 of the EU Birds Directive, which specifically protects Annex I species such as eagles and kites. The Golden Eagle Trust will be lodging an official complaint with the EU Commission in this regard within the coming weeks. Sadly, even the limited legislation that is currently in place controlling the use of poisons is itself not being enforced. Regulations governing the use of poison clearly state that people using poison must erect poisoning signs and notify the local Garda Siochana Station in writing - this is simply being ignored. Several of the dead birds ate poisoned dead livestock even though it is illegal to knowingly leave dead livestock above ground under separate Animal By-products regulations.

There are 160,000 jobs in the Irish Agri-food sector, which benefit from the 'clean green' image which our country and food industry has. If this sector is to consolidate its share of an increasingly competitive international consumer market then it must continue to adhere to the highest farming standards. Under the Single Farm Payment Scheme there is a requirement for farmers to comply with a number of Statutory Management Requirements set down in EU Directives and Regulations, including the Birds Directive, which affords rare Annex I species (including Eagles and Kites) special protection. The Single Payment Scheme in Ireland is fully funded by the EU and European taxpayers. The illegal use of poison on a small number of Irish farms is not compatible with the obligations those in receipt of the Single Farm Payment have or with the promotion of Ireland's clean food image.

The Rural Environment Protection Scheme (REPS) is one of the main expenditure items of the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food Budget, and it is estimated it will cost several hundred million Euros in 2009. The Golden Eagle Trust has made two previous submissions, under periodic REPS reviews, stating that poisoning with meat baits be banned on farms in receipt of payments specifically designed to protect the Irish Environment. We would appeal to the Department of Agriculture, once again, to consider this as a matter of urgency. Is it acceptable that a small number of landowners in receipt of payments under the Rural Environment Protection Scheme and Single Farm Payment continue to use poisons that kill protected and rare birds?

The economies and employment in Kerry, Donegal and Wicklow are each heavily dependent on tourism and each county rightly promotes the beauty of their respective landscapes. Golden Eagles, White-tailed Eagles and Red Kites are increasingly being used to highlight each county's wild landscapes in essential tourism promotional packages. It is known for example, that the Eagles on Scotland's Isle of Mull alone, contribute 3 million euro per annum to this small island economy. Each Irish county has the potential to replicate these specific eco-tourism incomes locally. But each county's wider promotional activities will be undermined to some degree if these projects fail due to poisoning. The deaths of these birds by poisoning are being widely publicized abroad, especially in the donor countries (Norway, Scotland, Wales) where legislation banning the use of such poisons has been in place for several decades.

Project Manager, Allan Mee of the Golden Eagle Trust said, "The sad thing is that none of this needs to happen. Landowners and eagles should be able to coexist in Kerry just as they do in Norway where White-tailed Eagles nest next to farms. Something has to be done about the poisoning situation or more eagles with die. It's a national disgrace that we continue to mindlessly wipe out wildlife by using poisons in this day and age."

Alan Lauder, BirdWatch Ireland's Head of Conservation said, "These poisonings sadden us. The efforts of the Golden Eagle Trust, the National Parks and Wildlife Service and other project partners, volunteers and stakeholders who wish to see the projects succeed are being let down by the actions of some irresponsible individuals. Most landowners would choose safer, more targeted and legitimate methods of pest control than opt to use indiscriminate and potentially harmful poison baits."

Alan continued, "These poisonings highlight the failure of the domestic legislation to adequately protect our wild birds and also show how the irresponsible actions of a few individuals affect not only the lives of majestic birds of prey but the livelihoods of local people in communities that depend on wildlife to attract visitors. If these poisonings persist they will continue to blight the country's reputation and potentially scupper attempts to restore some precious parts of Ireland's heritage."

The Golden Eagle Trust, the charity managing all three projects in partnership with the National Parks and Wildlife Service, believes the current "light regulation" of poisoning in Ireland is simply killing too many Eagles and Kites. Poisoning has now been proven to be a real threat to the national effort, funded by Irish tax payer's money, to restore our native Irish Eagles and Kites. Birds of prey can co-exist with modern farming practices, as happens elsewhere across Europe. The GET would like to highlight the enormous support the reintroduction projects receive from the large majority of landowners, farmers, gun clubs, schools, hill walkers, tourism interests and many others, but must stress that reckless poisoning is an outdated and selfish habit of a very small minority of individuals.

Notes

How the Birds Were Found
The 3 recently recovered bird of prey corpses were located; by radio tracking in Kerry, in Wicklow a member of the public used contacts details underneath wings tags attached to all released birds and by satellite tag locational co-ordinates in Donegal.

Breach of Birds Directive
Article 4 and Article 9 of the EU Birds Directive specifically require all EU Member States, including Ireland, to protect eagles and kites and other Annex 1 species. On the 13 December 2007, a judgement of the European Court of Justice found against the Irish Government for a range of failures to satisfactorily implement this directive into Irish law. The Government will face further, potentially costly, actions should it be found to fail on further counts or to not rectify previous failures. (see Case C-418/04 Commission of the European Communities v Ireland - available on www.curia.europa.eu (http://www.curia.europa.eu/)).

Second Red Kite found Dead
A second Red Kite was found dead, in suspicious circumstances, near Patrickswell, County Limerick on the 20th March 2009 and post mortems and toxicology tests are currently ongoing.

Poisons Used

Paraquat
Paraquat is one of the most widely used herbicides in the world. It is used as a quick acting non-selective weed killer, killing green plant tissue on contact. In July 2007 the European Court of Justice banned the use of Paraquat as an active plant protection substance. Paraquat is lethal to humans when swallowed.

Carbofuran
Carbofuran is one of the most toxic carbamate pesticides. It is used to control insects on a variety of field crops. Carbofuran has one of the highest acute toxicities to humans of any insecticide widely used on field crops

Alphachloralose
Alphachloralose is an immobilizing agent used on mice, rats and crows. It affects the nervous system and retards metabolism, causing body temperature to fall. Depending on the dosage consumed and ambient temperature, hypothermia normally results in the death of the target species.

[Alan G]

Dead golden eagle was poisoned, police confirm

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/2009/06/19/dead-golden-eagle-was-poisoned-police-confirm-86908-21454123/

[TerryFittis]

Really awful,as someone commented in the news paper,it really is a crime against the scotish people:(

Terry

[Drake]

Really awful,as someone commented in the news paper,it really is a crime against the scotish people:(

Terry

No, it is really a crime against Scottish golden eagles.

[TerryFittis]

That goes without saying ofcourse,but im have scottish, and it's the efforts the folk have went to getting these wonderfull birds there, so i do feel for them folk also

Terry

[TLDWB]

Alma has been found dead, looks like shes been poisoned.:evil:

http://www.roydennis.org/golden-eagle/index.asp?id=29

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/tayside_and_central/8176728.stm

Tom

[TLDWB]

David, there are some narrow minded tawts out there.

Tom

[MickeyDredd]

Very surprised to hear it has been found on Millden as i'm sure a keeper there is a falconer himself........

[TerryFittis]

Tom, I would have reported him had he not been my boss at the time, and he was talking about ten years previous.

Im sure this has botherd you david,now the mod's can delet my post if they like,but i'd be more than happy to go see your ex boss with you any time,what on earth goes through them peoples heads to do this on these wonderfull birds:x

Terry

[peattatun]

Now that we have lived in Scotland for the last 8 1/2 yrs, and seen these & other marvellous wild eagles flying, it's a real shame to hear this but unfortunately there will always be idiots like this in all walks of life.

What goes around comes around/ karma etc will blight their life in the future......yea:supz:

(we used to have 4 ducks that were pets, they were regularly injured by dumb youths etc with BB guns/ stones etc. walking past our garden, just for the sake of it)

[MickeyDredd]

Taxidermy?? ;)

Quite the opposite in fact, you would be amazed to know what he does these days! Atb

[TiercelMan]

Lol, not taxidermy, but hawks pay his mortgage, I can't say any more than that!

I think I, and one or two others might know who your talking about David;) Careful!!

[Thistle]

Each time
I hear
News like this
One hopes
It will be
For the very
Last time
Sadly never
Is
There will
Always
Be another
A few
Months
Go by
A piece
In the news
With photo
Held up
By her wings
Again
You can hope
For half
Your life
In vain
Nothing
Changed
Yet another
One gone
The killing
Of goldens
Goes on
And on
Poisoning
Hope
Breaking
Hearts

Doesn't it
yours ?

[Ducati1981]

thats a shame feel sorry for the owner

[Blond]

im totally gutted to hear this, hope the ppl involved get caught n a heavy prison sentence or fine incurs or do the same to them

really gutted to hear about the death of a stunning bird, ppl like that shud b force fed the same stuff or caught and be properly evicted, a good prison sentence wudnt go a miss

[South West Falconer]

hawkmaster ive pm you count me in for £175 and ill double it if they get time or a huge fine hope this will help

[HarrisHawk69]

Another blow to the Falconry nation of the UK, All of the hard work in Conservation and someone can take it away like that.
Gutted! :x

[Loch Lomond]

This thread was originally started in August 2007, when the Golden eagle was found. Since then, the male has paired up with another female and successfully bred. The 2009 chick has been fitted with a tracker and is being monitored by "Raptor Research" to establish where the young disperse to, or, what becomes of them. As yet, no results have been published. As far as I know, no-one has yet been prosecuted for this crime, although I suspect the authorities have their own ideas as to who is responsible.

[Lewis Phillips]

get them in a chair, i will be happy to pull the lever:mad:

[AshleyWatson]

Its really pity that bird found dead.... Birds are the beautiful creature of God and this act is really cruel. But i think bird control is also very importnat to keep them away but we should use safe Bird control products.

[Tommy Mac]

CANT BELIEVE THE NEWS ALAN HAS POSTED, WHO ARE THESE BIG MEN, WHAT COWARDS THEY ARE, THEY MAKE ME SICK, LETS HOPE THEY GET WHAT THEY DESERVE, COME ON THE FALCONERS GET OUR CLUBS TO PUT SOME REWARDS UP TO GET THE SICK IDIOTS WHO DO THIS.
TOMMY MAC

[Loch Lomond]

CANT BELIEVE THE NEWS ALAN HAS POSTED, WHO ARE THESE BIG MEN, WHAT COWARDS THEY ARE, THEY MAKE ME SICK, LETS HOPE THEY GET WHAT THEY DESERVE, COME ON THE FALCONERS GET OUR CLUBS TO PUT SOME REWARDS UP TO GET THE SICK IDIOTS WHO DO THIS.
TOMMY MAC

Tommy,

This is old news, look at the date of the post. There have been many more incidents since this one.

One tip, when you type, please take the capitals lock off, capitals mean you are shouting, and no-one wants to be shouted at.

Atb, Stewart.

[Pujan96]

i want to shove carbofuran down the people involved throats:x

[FilipinoFalconer]

tsktsk.. shame on them