Wrong-imprinted Eagles

[Java Falconer]

Hi guys, just want to know your comment on this.

It is common here in my country that people buy BOP, esp. eagle from a chick and started to raise them until they are adult. Those people who has done that are not falconers and know nothing about falconry. To cut it short, the bird will then so calm like an imprinted one, but they kill nothing. Even, some were given live birds, but they just stare at it, not reacting to kill and eat it. Do you think this is because of those bird were imprinted wrongly or what? Is there any way to make them becoming wild, well at least independent > able to hunt and etc. I'm afraid if there will be many eagle (or other raptors) chicks having the same kind of treatment, their future is doomed, they won't survive anymore!


Many thanks!!!

p/s: I'm concerned to this, but not able to do much... :(

[Wingless]

Well my thoughts are that if the eagles are "calm" and ignoring live prey, it's probably nothing to do with being imprinted, they are more than likely just too high in weight.

As you said, the people trying to get these birds to catch things are not falconers so they won't understand the concept. If you do get these eagles on weight, presuming they are food imprints (i.e. fed by a human from the hand), they will probably become noisy and aggressive towards their owner which will not be fun!

You are correct, without proper training they will probably die in the wild but, even if they do survive on their own, it's unlikely that they will breed, again it depends on the imprinting process. So it would really be a pointless exercise to free them anyway.


Robbie

[Bellicosus]

I guess i would agree. Imprinted or wild, if its hungry it WILL kill! Instincts are just so amazing where animals are concerned.

But for an imprinted animal to hunt is pretty impossible though not entirely so. It would definitely require a very long and tedious process. Something requiring lotsa time, patience and dedication.

[MickeyDredd]

Drop their weight....then prepare to bleed!! ;)

[Pete J.]

It is entirely a weight issue. Once you bring them down somewhat, they will start killing. But also be aware of what Mickey said..be prepared to bleed! They are going to begin hurting you and perhaps other people. Mostly due to the frustration of not knowing enough about killing and the desire to acquire food the only way they have learned so far...which is from the handler. It is important to get them killing as soon as possible to minimize this period of attacking the trainer. Begin using a lure that resembles whatever prey they normally hunt (or a whole carcass of that animal) and let them begin to take all their meals from that. And get them looking away from you for food...so hide the lure away from you and pull it out into the open somehow so that the eagle leaves you to go to the food.
While in some of the precocial birds such as ducks and chickens imprinting a relatively fast and complete form of learning that happens the first few hours of their life, with raptors this can be a considerably longer and gradual process. After years of working with imprints I sort of feel like they still know what they really are from the beginning, and all we do is effectively modify their tentative imprinting on to us with constant handling and feeding. I have observed that birds that have been imprinted and then at early tame hack with oassssssssssssssssssssssssaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

[HawkEagle]

Well my thoughts are that if the eagles are "calm" and ignoring live prey, it's probably nothing to do with being imprinted, they are more than likely just too high in weight.

As you said, the people trying to get these birds to catch things are not falconers so they won't understand the concept. If you do get these eagles on weight, presuming they are food imprints (i.e. fed by a human from the hand), they will probably become noisy and aggressive towards their owner which will not be fun!

You are correct, without proper training they will probably die in the wild but, even if they do survive on their own, it's unlikely that they will breed, again it depends on the imprinting process. So it would really be a pointless exercise to free them anyway.


Robbie

Spot on m8. :supz: It's the weight issue and nothing to do with rearing.

[Java Falconer]

Thanks for the feedbacks. I can see that most of you regarded the problem as because they are too fat. But, I must say that some eagles are my friend's and I've told them not to feed them for a day or so and it still doesn't work. Even my friend hasn't feed one eagle for 2 days and not working at all. It is a male CHE. Looks pretty wild, uneasy to be handled, but in fact it is an imprint after all. When he was given a dove, he just stared at it and like they were friends... :rolleyes:

Lucky me, my case is the same with what most of u said here. I've got a CSE before and I imprint it (not a proper one though, before I know how to imprint well). Through the times, it became a killer but she doesn't seems eager to hunt. This, makes me confused with my friend's case.

Any idea?

Ok, pressumably it is true only a weight issue, I'll try to figure it out again ;)

What about an imprint eagle which is imprinted correctly and kill baggies since it was little, but when it is adult it shows a tendency of being picky eater? Doesn't really want to kill baggies anymore, but kind of having stress because not allowed to fly free?



I guess their future is really doomed rite... :cry:

[Pete J.]

It is entirely a weight issue. Once you bring them down somewhat, they will start killing. But also be aware of what Mickey said..be prepared to bleed! They are going to begin hurting you and perhaps other people. Mostly due to the frustration of not knowing enough about killing and the desire to acquire food the only way they have learned so far...which is from the handler. It is important to get them killing as soon as possible to minimize this period of attacking the trainer. Begin using a lure that resembles whatever prey they normally hunt (or a whole carcass of that animal) and let them begin to take all their meals from that. And get them looking away from you for food...so hide the lure away from you and pull it out into the open somehow so that the eagle leaves you to go to the food.
While in some of the precocial birds, such as ducks and chickens, imprinting is a relatively fast and complete form of learning that happens the first few hours of their life, with raptors this can be a considerably longer and gradual process. After years of working with imprints I sort of feel like they still know what they really are from the beginning, and all we do is effectively modify their tentative imprinting on to us with constant handling and feeding. I have observed that birds that have been imprinted and then at early tame hack with another bird, this seems to interfere with their desire to copulate with humans later on. Not always, but it does happen. If you are therefore interested in breeding these young birds later on as breeding pairs, you may want to tether them in close view of each other as early as possible and watch for any breeding/courtship behaviors by BOTH sexes toward each other before you release them together into the same pen.
i had read a couple of years ago on a website about the problems with raptors on Java. It is unfortunate that we can't help because of your govts. position on moving some of those birds out to the west since much of the habitat is gone and is not likely to ever be restored. I'd be more than happy to set up a pair or two of Blythe's hawkeagles if you've got them!LOL All joking aside, it's a terrible situation over there. I don't envy you having to deal with it.
Pete J..

[Java Falconer]

So Pete, what you're saying is like the case of reintroducing one quail species (I forgot). The point is that we also have to show the mating ritual to the imprint birds in order for them to breed?

Haha...many people were talking the same with you, they really want Blyth's Hawk Eagle for breeding purposes.
To be honest, I never found any. But, I'm trying to find one recently and have contacted many people who usually sell raptors. Hope I'm lucky enough to save one or a pair, although breeding will be hard as well as exporting them...in fact, we really need experts on this kind of breeding (AI and stuffs)...
Habitat has greatly lost, while AI is still not being conducted to save them... :cry:

[HawkEagle]

If the bird is not fed for 2 days it doesnt mean it'll be hungry. If the bird is at its fat weight it will take alot longer then that. For ex, my blyth's he fat weight 1230g her hunting weight is 930g she needs to loose 300g and her weight if not fed for a day drop 20g. In total it'll take 15 days of not feeding. But dont just go starve ur bird. Just take time but you must know what you re doing cause the bird could be lowered too much or too little.

[HawkEagle]

Thanks for the feedbacks. I can see that most of you regarded the problem as because they are too fat. But, I must say that some eagles are my friend's and I've told them not to feed them for a day or so and it still doesn't work. Even my friend hasn't feed one eagle for 2 days and not working at all. It is a male CHE. Looks pretty wild, uneasy to be handled, but in fact it is an imprint after all. When he was given a dove, he just stared at it and like they were friends... :rolleyes:

Lucky me, my case is the same with what most of u said here. I've got a CSE before and I imprint it (not a proper one though, before I know how to imprint well). Through the times, it became a killer but she doesn't seems eager to hunt. This, makes me confused with my friend's case.

Any idea?

Ok, pressumably it is true only a weight issue, I'll try to figure it out again ;)

What about an imprint eagle which is imprinted correctly and kill baggies since it was little, but when it is adult it shows a tendency of being picky eater? Doesn't really want to kill baggies anymore, but kind of having stress because not allowed to fly free?



I guess their future is really doomed rite... :cry:

BTW, life dove will not get che interested cause the bird know it's not gonna catch it. Try rodents initually and you will get some respond even a fat bird.

[Java Falconer]

If the bird is not fed for 2 days it doesnt mean it'll be hungry. If the bird is at its fat weight it will take alot longer then that. For ex, my blyth's he fat weight 1230g her hunting weight is 930g she needs to loose 300g and her weight if not fed for a day drop 20g. In total it'll take 15 days of not feeding. But dont just go starve ur bird. Just take time but you must know what you re doing cause the bird could be lowered too much or too little.

Yep, I know about this weight-lowering stuffs.
I must say that I only advising my friend at that moment, not really meet the bird. So, I jugde the problem only from his report. Perhaps some factors were influenced the cause, but not figured out yet.
Sadly, the eagle has died couple months ago...so the case won't be solved anyway...

[Java Falconer]

BTW, life dove will not get che interested cause the bird know it's not gonna catch it. Try rodents initually and you will get some respond even a fat bird.

Still not working mate. My friend has given it a mice but still zero...

[Tim Laycock]

Drop their weight....then prepare to bleed!! ;)

Spot on :supz:

[Pete J.]

So Pete, what you're saying is like the case of reintroducing one quail species (I forgot). The point is that we also have to show the mating ritual to the imprint birds in order for them to breed?
While the exact mating ritual may not even been known, sometimes you can sort of work though it by paying attention to vocalizations that come during breeding time and not much at any other time. Then using those vocalizations in conjunction with bringing in nesting material and beginning to build a nest for them...eventually you will start to see postures and vocalizations that you have not witnessed and at the least if you somewhat copy the vocalizations the birds will often meet you half-way. One day after many many days of bringing in a stick or two at feeding time you might just drop a stick on the ground and the next thing you know he/she will jump down and pick it up and put it in the nest. They might not place it well, but it will be a start. Often within a few days you can hardly supply enough sticks to keep them happy. It goes on and becomes more complicated with needing to do food transfers and motivating the male to give semen or the female to stand for copulation...knowing when the time is right...it does take time, and you must be observant of many things all at the same time. If you do not already have a download of the Peregrine Fund booklet on Captive Propagation of Falcons send me a pvt message and I'll give you the link to it. It has a great deal of information on imprinting and breeding imprints. And while it is specifically talking about the production of Peregrine Falcons, the information is useful for just about any raptor, you just have to modify certain aspects about nesting, timing of egglaying, incubation times, etc.. In many ways I found goshawks easier to breed than falcons. They don't give you nearly as many clues as to what is on their tiny minds...but once they are ready to go, they are very very sexual creatures....typical of accipiters, they're either all in or all out, but when they're in...they're reallllllly in!!!:supz:
Pete J.

[Java Falconer]

While the exact mating ritual may not even been known, sometimes you can sort of work though it by paying attention to vocalizations that come during breeding time and not much at any other time. Then using those vocalizations in conjunction with bringing in nesting material and beginning to build a nest for them...eventually you will start to see postures and vocalizations that you have not witnessed and at the least if you somewhat copy the vocalizations the birds will often meet you half-way. One day after many many days of bringing in a stick or two at feeding time you might just drop a stick on the ground and the next thing you know he/she will jump down and pick it up and put it in the nest. They might not place it well, but it will be a start. Often within a few days you can hardly supply enough sticks to keep them happy. It goes on and becomes more complicated with needing to do food transfers and motivating the male to give semen or the female to stand for copulation...knowing when the time is right...it does take time, and you must be observant of many things all at the same time. If you do not already have a download of the Peregrine Fund booklet on Captive Propagation of Falcons send me a pvt message and I'll give you the link to it. It has a great deal of information on imprinting and breeding imprints. And while it is specifically talking about the production of Peregrine Falcons, the information is useful for just about any raptor, you just have to modify certain aspects about nesting, timing of egglaying, incubation times, etc.. In many ways I found goshawks easier to breed than falcons. They don't give you nearly as many clues as to what is on their tiny minds...but once they are ready to go, they are very very sexual creatures....typical of accipiters, they're either all in or all out, but when they're in...they're reallllllly in!!!:supz:
Pete J.

Great info, many thanks Pete!

I'll try to follow your advise ;)

[Badra]

is this your experience???

[Java Falconer]

is this your experience???

Of course yes, I had this kind of experience as I'm the one who dealt with those eagles, including mine not so long ago before I know how to imprint well.