I have messed kane up!

[FireAsh123]

well im at my whits end now:cry: . i dont know what to do and its all my fault.:oops:
the mess all started when through my ignorance i strated to take his weight down in the first week about 1/4 of an ounce a day but he seemed great with his seroundings ie cars bikes busses and the lot but was rubbish with me, but i thought that will come, little did i know that he wasnt alright with all those he was just blaming me for all those things. took him to my training ground a week later as he was settling down and started cooling jumping him to the fist. was well made up he seemed good. but when i started cooling longer distances he started landing half way up me arm to threaten my face before going to the fist.pluse he didnt trust my face one bit. was worried with this behaviour so spoke to a few friends who advised different things ie use a dummy bunny get his weight up.
so tryed both still to no avial. so i decided as he wasnt massivly aggresive id start again so brought his weight right up as fat has he would go and started again after 2 weeks at fat weight. so i did but mad sure that it was a maxximum of a 1/4 ounce a day and no more. but was right hard to get any weight down cose of the weather. but was out in the fields with his feeding sesions. he was great with me by now so as he started getting keener in the food i thought id start jumping him to the fist which was fine and tghen started calling him which he started banging the back of my head but not even landing on the fist now. and so i thought right iv just got to get him hunting asap and dont worrie how he is flown so started lure training him. but the last two days as im getting him down for release and hunting he has gone mad he is not really that keen in the lure at 1.8 but is keener at 1.7 1/2
i seem to have the best control well took him out the last few days and he is now flying at my head when i walk away constantly till i throw the lure.
just thought id give you ppl an update to when i was and also any ideas of what to do with him? also if anyone else is ever in this situation well maybe it could help as i wished i started lure training him as soon as he was showing aggresion.
atb a gutted ash.... :(

[Casey]

Hi,

Firstly, I know how bad you feel when a bird goes wrong!! My Spar is doing so at the moment!!

Perhaps a bit more info on him I.e Imprint, parent reared, passed down bird , previous flying wieght condition /muscle etc (Just in case your avatar is an old one and he is not a first year bird)

I'm sure someone that fly's gosses can help.

cheers

Chris

[Ranger]

I can't offer any advice as you know Ash but sorry to read this, hope you get the advice you need.

If you need any help in the field with the lures or ferrets etc, give me a shout and I'll do what I can.

Matt

[FireAsh123]

yes sorry cassey. just feel so sorry for the bird. just want to do whats best for him now. he is pr and a brown bird.
im thinking of getting him a little higher where he is managable but less controle and try and get him entred. or?
has anyone put a bird in a muse for the hole winter and started traing again next year? would this be an option?

[Osiris]

yes sorry cassey. just feel so sorry for the bird. just want to do whats best for him now. he is pr and a brown bird.
im thinking of getting him a little higher where he is managable but less controle and try and get him entred. or?
has anyone put a bird in a muse for the hole winter and started traing again next year? would this be an option?

How old is the hawk??? What manning routine are you doing with him??? What is he like with other people???

[FireAsh123]

he is this years bird. at first i just manned him down with food but rushed along to fast and he started shwing sighns of aggression then tryed other methods like manning him all day which he deffiantly didnt like. had him in the house. then tryed the kester way which he responded to really well. he just was around me with food and his fear of my face went away and he started settling down. so started to progress but as soon as i started to lower his weight i got the problems. he is steady as a rock with other ppl but havnt flown him to anyone yet. he flys at me like a nasty imprint.
thats why ive been using the lure cose i want to just get him entred. he jumps up from the lure very easy. mantles like a bitch and is super aggresive around food. but he doesnt go for the face when i make in on him.

[Tom Kent Gos]

Sound like his weight is too low to me if he is attacking you until you feed him.

I would also try and only call him 2 or 3 times only in a training session, he will get the message or should already have the message that you will feed him.

He is probally anoyed because he wants to kill something, it is his instinct and in his eyes you are stoping him. Once he starts to kill his aggretion to you should stop after a while.

Tom

[FireAsh123]

yer cheers tom i am going to try him at 1.7 3/4. i think your right at the not hunting has he has started really looking at crows and birds and then started the chassing me down. but he hasnt been that keen on the lure at that weght.
is it normal for gosses to have such a tight weght margin?

[Vernon]

i think most of yr problems r that u have not got it killing by now it should have been killing weeks ago
get it killing something every time u go even if it means giving it a few easy ones;) then feed it up on the kills then its not looking at u to feed it.

[Alf]

You need for someone else to take him off your hands just now and finish his training .He is showing no fear of you and it sounds like he could get worse.
If you have a mate that can take him on change of environment different handling for a few weeks?. Alf.

[ChrisGos]

Ash, Bring him over here and we can get him on some black stuff:lol:

[FireAsh123]

yes cheers bluebell, but i know where i have gone wrong but its now impossible to take him out. its all starts from one mistake then another bad choice in persaviering instead of getting him on the lure.

cheers alf thats what i was thinking. do you think i should get this other person to lure train him and get him entred or try fist work?

[PrinceOfTheWesternDesert]

i have to go along with bluebell,,
try to direct the aggression onto game,,
keep the focus where you want it, and not on you,,
the lure sucks,, because it comes from your hand, and its all he can think about,,
he needs something, to take his attention,, and then then flee,,so he can pursue it,,
after all,, he is just trying to get agressive,, isnt that natural?
is it his fault he was aimed at the wrong target?
he needs to be aimed at game,

[Alf]

I just think he sees you as a push over. Who ever start this hawk he needs to be firm with him no tappy lapping around he needs to go in and pick him up from an almost standing position he needs to pull those jesses tight if you have ever seen a confident falconer go out and pick a hawk up from a bow to one who is careful and has slight indecision you will see how the hawk reacts.
Firm and decisive! This is what will count. Alf.


yes cheers bluebell, but i know where i have gone wrong but its now impossible to take him out. its all starts from one mistake then another bad choice in persaviering instead of getting him on the lure.

cheers alf thats what i was thinking. do you think i should get this other person to lure train him and get him entred or try fist work?

[Kennelre]

I have no experience of a Gos, so kick my head in for daring to speak...but should the man not just give the bird away to someone who knows what they're doing? Sorry...if that's an innapropriate comment, but I fear for it's potential lifespan:roll:


...Rene.

[Keith Barker]

he is this years bird. at first i just manned him down with food but rushed along to fast and he started shwing sighns of aggression then tryed other methods like manning him all day which he deffiantly didnt like. had him in the house. then tryed the kester way which he responded to really well. he just was around me with food and his fear of my face went away and he started settling down. so started to progress but as soon as i started to lower his weight i got the problems. he is steady as a rock with other ppl but havnt flown him to anyone yet. he flys at me like a nasty imprint.
thats why ive been using the lure cose i want to just get him entred. he jumps up from the lure very easy. mantles like a bitch and is super aggresive around food. but he doesnt go for the face when i make in on him.

hello fireash123,
when you bought this hawk was he from the breeder of eyass?
was the bird in a seclusion pen with the parent bird or other eyasses?
does he mantle on the fist when you are feeding him?
how old was the eyass when you got him?
answering some of these questions will shed a bit of light on what type of goshawk you have on your hands, imprint goshawks in my opinion are not for a complete novice, sounds like you have one on your hands to me.
keith

[FireAsh123]

why do you fear for the gosses life kennelre? why is its life at risk?
have you read through this thread? im not asking advice on how to train a gos?

[FireAsh123]

hi bakerskid well he was pr got him at just over 9 weeks old and yes compleat seclusion. i was very pleased with the breeder. a very expereneced breeder of many hawks and falcons. the falt all lies with me in the begining my ignorance of taking him down to quickly then making the wrong discisions ie carrying on his training instead of lure training him and getting him killing asap has led to this.
basically the last few days he was coming on well to the lure so i was going to have him loose hunting in the next few days so started to lower him so slightly to get a better resonce before i do so i know he is keen. we are talking a 1/4 ounce when he started flying at me constantly before lure is brought out. i garantee its not the breeder

[Finnish]

Who breed him mate....:)

[GosFlyer]

a gos is not a pet, as soon as you are confident in getting the bird back it should be entered, i wed to the lure and get them killing, the manning and steadying will come naturaly once the bird is allowed to do what they do best, and thats kill other things, if you man and man a gos you end up with what you now have, a frustrated gos, if its coming to the lure let it chase stuff, the easiest you can find to start with and in two weeeks time you will have a hunting bird, all the best mick.

[FireAsh123]

roger pyle bred him.

[OutFlying]

Quote:
Originally Posted by FireAsh123 http://www.falconryforum.co.uk/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.falconryforum.co.uk/showthread.php?p=636995#post636995)
hello people got my gos on the first and was told he had just eaten some hare. at 1lb 11 not the biggest but he looks lovely so put him in his quarters and picked him up the next morning. done a bit of manning on the glove and on the weatherings. picked him up at 1900 hours and put a doc down and the little bugga eat it at 1.10 been feeding him while i walk for the last 6 days and im now guna drop his weight for tomoz as he is still very nervouse of me but will still eat. he is more worried of me than all the cars and bikes that go by im so made up just hope when he is over me that he dosent suddenly see the cars and bikes and start bateing. as he doesnt seem to notice them at the mo had super motos ride past him about two feet away and he didnt even flinch is this normal?
i thought they where supos to be harder than hh

ill get some picks up soon


Do you still think their easier than harris hawks ?


Reading your other thread and reading this (But without actually seeing your gos) - from a top weight of 1-11 (I assume it was fat on collection) then 8 weeks later it is 1-7 ish. Then this isn't a great weight reduction, I would stop doing what your doing and seek someone local to assess the gosses condition and your training methods.

All the best Jim.

[Vernon]

a gos is not a pet, as soon as you are confident in getting the bird back it should be entered, i wed to the lure and get them killing, the manning and steadying will come naturaly once the bird is allowed to do what they do best, and thats kill other things, if you man and man a gos you end up with what you now have, a frustrated gos, if its coming to the lure let it chase stuff, the easiest you can find to start with and in two weeeks time you will have a hunting bird, all the best mick.

well said mick
get it out hunting asap

[FireAsh123]

yes jim i know i messed up in the begining through my own ignorance. i already explained that. i didnt know at the time that a drop in weight that fast can make a gos agresive. but i do now.
and no jim i dont think there easy. i was just exited and happy with how he behaived. but through my inorance i ruined all of that. and i feel sick through it all.
knowing what i know now i dont think id have any of thse problems but was just trying to sort them out. the bird isnt going to die. but if some one wants to see him your more than welcome

[FireAsh123]

well said mick
get it out hunting asap

but because the gos didnt have convidents in me through its fast drop over 8 days i wasnt happy with its response. thats one of the reseason iv taken ages. but yes i agree too

[OutFlying]

yes jim i know i messed up in the begining through my own ignorance. i already explained that. i didnt know at the time that a drop in weight that fast can make a gos agresive. but i do now.
and no jim i dont think there easy. i was just exited and happy with how he behaived. but through my inorance i ruined all of that. and i feel sick through it all.
knowing what i know now i dont think id have any of thse problems but was just trying to sort them out. the bird isnt going to die. but if some one wants to see him your more than welcome

I think you need to re read the reply, was the gos fat when you got him ? i.e feeling his keel.

If so then a weight drop of 4 oz's from 1-11 to 1-7 over 8 weeks isn't to fast and most likely still over weight.

Get him to recall by what ever means and get hunting but don't expect too much from him too soon. Fitness and confidence are the key - weight reduction by itself achieves very little.

ATB

Jim.

ps Forgot to add many pr goshawks take 5-6 days to feed initially from the glove and experience a sudden weight drop but they don't turn aggressive - something else you've done or are doing is causing the problems.

[FireAsh123]

I think you need to re read the reply, was the gos fat when you got him ? i.e feeling his keel.

If so then a weight drop of 4 oz's from 1-11 to 1-7 over 8 weeks isn't to fast and most likely still over weight.

Get him to recall by what ever means and get hunting but don't expect too much from him too soon. Fitness and confidence are the key - weight reduction by itself achieves very little.

ATB

Jim.

sorry jim. no 1.11 to 1.7 in 8 days it was as i thought i just needed his weight down for him to feed, then brought him up to 1.8 after that from advice from others. and yes he was fat but was quite sharp at 1.7
i did take him right up to 1.11 1/2 and i would go past 1.7 1/2 now as thats the weight he flys at me. any higher and he wasnt interested from a distance in the lure. but i am going to take him higher till he stops flying at me and if his responce in acceptable. he is going to kill somink. ie rabbit

[OutFlying]

From fat to initial entering a greater reduction than 3-4 oz's will be required, is no one near to help you ?

Jim.

[Onyx25]

How much food does he get on a recall and how many flights?

[FireAsh123]

How much food does he get on a recall and how many flights?

well never really got him going to the fist but three flights with about half mabe quarter of a chick. i do 3 to 4 flights on lure and thats it. as he sttles down on larger portions. he is good on the lure once he has had is reward he jumps up to the fist for a leg. no aggression to me. wel he is a thousand times better tahn my harris was with the lure. cant fault him there

[Onyx25]

well never really got him going to the fist but three flights with about half mabe quarter of a chick. i do 3 to 4 flights on lure and thats it. as he sttles down on larger portions. he is good on the lure once he has had is reward he jumps up to the fist for a leg. no aggression to me. wel he is a thousand times better tahn my harris was with the lure. cant fault him there
I would keep him on the lure but only call him once for a good reward to build his confidence and responses then hunt him and introduce the fist later if ever with this bird. Killing is the key.

[Mac]

ash without seeing the bird with you its nigh on impossible to really get to the crux of the problem.

no bird handles the same way as another. in my opinion i would say that your bird is showing an awful lot of aggression for a parent reared brown bird. similarly the excessive mantling also isnt in common with any of the parent reared gosses i have trained...or any that my freinds have.

the causation may well be due to the number of habituation methods you employed in his taming. and also the length of time you have had him "hungry but not doing the business" in future stick to one method and dont defer from it.

make a weight reduction mean something and make a reward worth it.

the only time i have heard of a pr gos behaving this way was a male imature hungarian that hated his owners face, it later transpired that his owner "spat" copious ammounts of water onto his unhooded bird in the initial manning stages in attempt to reduce bating and overheating. food was present during these times. somewhere along the line the gos put two and two together came up with five and associated the close proximity of his owners head with dinner:rolleyes: !

the amount of weight you have taken off him is minimal im not going down the sometimes lethal 'quoting weight road' but the smallest gos i have flown came out at 1lb 12oz and he was as round as a partridge! and didnt feed for 6 days when hunting at crows he flew at less than 1lb 4oz.
are you sure he is not too high? as i would expect to take more off a bird to get her going

personally i think the aggression geared towards you would be exacerbated by calling or feeding him on the fist.
gosses are only happy when they are killing so his aggression needs to be channeled. and fast. the maturity that even one kill gives a young gos is unbelievable.
i would move to carcass feeding. feed him up on the carcasses of quarry that is easiest engineer a kill with locally. make his whole world revolve around them. when hunger isnt on his mind then spend time with him.
when he knows what wild food tastes and looks like get a long length of para cord string up a cadaver of his intended victims and create a succesful slip and mock battle, i myself would make a concerted effort to kill moorhens with him. as they are a perfect confidence booster.

finally in total agreement with alf dont let your bird intimidate you. stand your ground. quick well considered movements are the way forward and out think the little swine at every step of the way!

all the best


sean

[Osiris]

a good falconer is admitting sometimes when they really need help and outside help from a more experienced falconer. there is no shame in asking for help from an experienced falconer to show you new experiences and gain extra knowledge. if you have a more experienced falconer friend nearby please ask them for practical help, and perhaps they may be able to tell exactly what is going wrong. Your asking all the right questions and giving everyone gr8 info onto the background of the bird so that we can help.

All the best mate,

jamie

[Steve W]

Hi Ash,
Just read through your thread, nightmare I know. I've just got a female Gos, she was a breeding bird for two years in seclusion and aggressive when I got her! She was fat, very fat (2-12oz she is only a samll bird) so left her in the mews for three days and did not feed. When I picked her up she came at me with both talons up (blocked her with glove!). So I can relate to your problem. This what is working for me -

1. Be confident and positive with him.
2. Wieght reduction - I've dropped my bird down to 2-4oz (7oz) in eight days before she started to calm down.
3. Lots of manning in doors.
4. If you can get a mate to hold him and fly to you, that way he can't come until your ready - it works well.
5. Get him hunting when he's ready and YOU are ready and confident.
6. If he's at a point where you think he's ready to hunt then slow things down and go back to manning until you can get him to fly to the fist - it's all very well hunting with a bird but if it does'nt come back what's the point!
7. Last resort try training him with a mate, a new face always helps.

Good luck fella

Steve

[Perebrine]

Hi Ash,
My first Gos was similar with the aggression, when training started he would clip the back of my head when I was trying to get him to follow on, he once banged my ear so hard I had to have stitches put in, but as others have said, when the killing started he soon turned around into a fantastic Gos.

If I've read the thread correctly 1.11 down to 1.7, that's only just over a 10% weight loss, personally I'd lower his weight slightly, BUT it's easy for somebody else to say "Drop the weight" when it's not their bird.

Good luck & remember, if all Gosses behaved the same, it would be a boring sport.
John B

[MickeyDredd]

off topic and associated posts deleted.

[FireAsh123]

thanks guys for all your responses. very help full. well cant fly him tomoz so portioned him so. but will try the two person aproach with large rewards on the lure as i was so close before to entering him.

thanks again guys ....ash:-D

[FireAsh123]

kane on crow.:yawinkle:

[HalkyWalky]

nice one ash well done :D

[AlexB]

Ash,

Well done on getting him entered.

How is he now doing?

Good luck with the rest of the season !

ATB

Alex

[Mac]

nice one mate.:supz:

[FireAsh123]

thanks alex, mandy and macc

he is amassing steping off from kills. not posesive one little bit. he is very wary of my bare hand but can do anything with my gloved hand. he was great till all the food from my fist was gone then he started his bating at me showing agression but settled down shortly. iv never seen a bird just jump up to the fist. well im working the next few days so ive got 2 days to get his weght back down. guna do some rope training to the lure then go for a very easy kill ie mixie rabbit. and hopefully he will settle down.

[ChrisGos]

Well done mate. Bet your feeling like the cat that got the cream. No looking back now.:P

[FireAsh123]

cheers chris. yer them perm jesses has made it so much more managable.
good luck for sunday mate. she should faltten them lol

[AlexB]

Ash,

Sounds like all is well with him. Just gotta get him killing as regularly as possible. Shrek was the same way for the first 5 or so kills but then he would happily eat with me helping him. Just need to persevere with him. Once again GL for the rest of the season with him.

Alex

[Ferret-Fanantic]

Nice one Ash!!! :D