Food Supplements

[Hawkmaster]

I use SA37, anyone else used anything else?

[North East Harris Hawker]

Ive been using A1 raptormixed with a calcium supplement called "stress", only use it during moult/breeding season tho

[UKJay74]

Is there any ways the more experienced people on her can give the novices abit more information regarding the supplements and what they do for the birds???

The only reason i ask is i find on my reptile forum letting people know what supplements are about and their uses is always a handy thing for the novices who join up :D

[North East Harris Hawker]

good point, i think the general aim of added supplements is to make up for the difference in diet between a captive bird and a wild bird.
many falconers will not allow their birds to eat for example,rats caught in the field for fear of poison(and rightly so in my opinion) and when they do feed sterile laboritory rats they are paunched. There is also the subject of day old chicks which is the ONLY diet for some peoples birds.

for those who feed their birds from kills i would suggest a very small amount of multi vitamins (if any at all)

for those who feed a mixed diet but all paunched i'd suggest something to make up for the "trace elements" that are missing

for those who feed their birds ONLY on d.o.c's i'd say your birds will be needing a calcium supplement AND maybe its time to be a little more fair to your bird.
I like beans on toast but i wouldnt want them for breakfast,lunch,dinner,supper and then for breakfast again all week every week :cry:

I am by no means an expert with regards to feeding supplements, my observations are all based on my own common sense and what i feel the birds need ie calcium for eggs+growing chicks, for those with more questions try reading "understanding the bird of prey" by nick fox, he goes into a lot more detail.

[Nerwign]

I don't need to supliment my birds, as they only get profesionally bred rats, mice, and quail. These are not lab animals. I remove the gut about 6 out of 7 days because I don't like it being flung at me. He eats the gut about 1 day a week. I let him eat what he wants and he gets enough gut material to do him fine.

At the rescue center I worked at, all the education birds were given Vitahawk each day because all they ate was day old turkey chicks with the yolk sacs (usually) removed. Big birds got 1/2 pill a day, little birds got 1/4 pill a day. Most of the time the person feeding would just put the pill in and the bird would pick it out and throw it away in the mew. When I was feeding I would put it in the body cavity and let it soften, then mush it in to make sure they got it. They all tried to pick it out though.

-Nerwign

[North East Harris Hawker]

ive heard of people putting vitamins/rangle inside the beaks of d.o.c's then closing them, most hawks swallow heads whole so this is another way of ensuring the goods are delivered

[Albie]

Hi Everyone,
I took advice when I got my Bird and I fed a doc leg dusted with Vetark Nutrobol which on the label it reads.. a high potency calcium balancer & multivitamin supplement to help during growth and breeding in all birds.
I fed this for the first six months, and after that have fed a chick leg dusted with SA37 when feeding G docs as well as what I think is a varied diet of G Weaner rats, Quail, Rabbit, Pheasant etc.
I find my Harris Hawk seems to do very well on this.
Mind you I'm not an Expert and am ALWAYS willing to learn more!

[Hawkmaster]

Nimbus, remind our mate to pump the old calcium into Shadow once she starts to do the business. How did she get on? Mind you this is not the place, sorry guys!

[North East Harris Hawker]

tis ok hawkmaster, its on thread, heres one.. a friend of mine has the sister of my bird, he fed no supplements and got 3 eggs (of which two were fertile) and I got four out of four! ok there may be some coincidence there but what can't speak can't lie, i recon laying them eggs must dent the females calcium levels. I recon "you only get out what you put in"
something to think about :roll:

[Nerwign]

The vitamins in the DOC mouths is probably fine for most suppliments, but Vitahawk is too large of a pill. It prompts all the hawks I've worked around to pick out the pill and throw it away. Since I haven't used other suppliments I'm not sure how big they are or how well they fit into the head, but the Vitahawks don't do well and should be shoved down the throat into the heart-cavity and allowed to soak up juices there and soften. Or if you are removing the yolk sac, they can be inserted through there.

-Nerwign

[North East Harris Hawker]

just how big are these pills? could they be cut up into quarters perhaps?

[Nerwign]

They certainly could be, but the rehab center I worked with had determined that their larger birds (barn owls on up) needed 1/2 pill a day to suppliment the chicks. They gave 1/4 to the little guys (kestrels and screech owls). These birds were all adults, but almost never got anything other than chicks. The center couldn't afford it.

I don't know if this is the best way to administer them, or if a bird should get more or less each day.

I don't know if it was also trying to take into account all the thrown away pills or not. They had at least one veterinarian who was a regular volunteer so I would imagine whatever they were doing was accurate, but even vets have been known to be wrong.

And this was 7+ years ago. :)

-Nerwign

[Hawkmaster]

All sounds like too much to me.

[North East Harris Hawker]

mmm it does seem like a lot of monkeying around, looks like we all agree on the mixed diet thing then?

[Hawkmaster]

Yip, I can't be bothered to get into all that. On the other hand if you are doing rehab. . . . GOOD ON YOU!

[North East Harris Hawker]

looks to me like the closer you can get the diet to what it would be in the birds wild state, so much the better,(except cleaner) but if you cant match the diet (for whatever reason) then additives should be considered.
makes sense to me :roll:

[Hawkmaster]

No truer word spoken.

[Nerwign]

I agree. I used to think that quail was the best diet there was, because at the rescue center they fed all the birds chicks, but the peregrine got quail each day. Later I learned that it's only good for high-metabolism birds like falcons. Hawks can develope gout by eating it too often. So my guy gets quail maybe four or five a year but he doesn't even seem to like them. He likes mice, eats giant rats ok, but loves the medium sized rats, just the size he'd eat in the wild. And now that I'm raising my own I know they are getting a quality diet while they grow up. :)

-Nerwign

[North East Harris Hawker]

when i was with the south wilts and west glos. club we had a guy come round from some raptor food specialist company, according to him the best food for broadwings (or the best alrounde) is guinea pig! closely followed by rat

[Nerwign]

Yeah that sounds good. Guinea pigs are too much work to breed. Rats are much easier for me.

But I know the San Francisco Zoo uses a lot of guinea pigs to feed their breeding bald eagles, so I imagine they're good. I figured it might be a size issue but...

I'm trying to breed rabbits too but it's slow going so far.

-Nerwign

[North East Harris Hawker]

rats are prolific breeders. I take every precaution with them though, if my bird catches one anywhere near civilisation the rat is removed, if the rat is caught out in its wildest state then the bird is allowed to feast (nice) I am sure also that the following day the bird seems to perform better (could be wishful thinking) but i'd swear on it!

[Nerwign]

I breed my own rats, and they get fed Purina Rat Diet, designed specially and somehow differently from their Rodent Diet to be complete nutritional food for breeding rats. I also offer the mom-rats fruit and breads when I have left-overs at my house.

So I know what they're eating and where they come from.

I never feed the field mice/gophers because of potential toxins they might get into outside or in the neighbors yard etc. Even when they're fat and tasty looking :(

I hate throwing them away, but it's not worth the risk.

-Nerwign

[North East Harris Hawker]

i understand that there is some risk with feeding field caught rats, but i think the risk of poisoning has considerably lower when they are caught miles from human living areas than those caught near civilisation (due to rodent poisoning) im not sure how far a rat travels in a day but im sure its not 10 miles into the middle of nowhere! so i use that as a rule of thumb, if its caught near a town its binned and if its caught on the north york moors its lunch! common sense i hope

[Gaz]

Get your birds through the moult quicker by smearing a chick with honey,good feather quality as well :mrgreen:

[North East Harris Hawker]

ive never heard of that one before gaz, where did you pick that up from?

[Jiff]

i was led to believe vita hawk was a powder and feel fairly sure it is,ive not bought any yet but im planning to fairly soon.Toby bradshaw uses it as he uses rabbit meat for tit bits and to aid weight control without starving the bird. he sprinkles the meat with vita hawk so that the bird stays in good health while fed on the rabbit which is nutritionally very poor.

[North East Harris Hawker]

i got told that only the back end of a rabbit was poor meat and that the front was quite nourishing? perhaps we should invite someone from one of the large food suppliers to come on here and pass on their knowledge?

[Gaz]

honey is pure protein,wich is what your birds after,it moults in no time at all. :mrgreen:

[Ian Wileman]

I use sa37 one day in three along with a varied diet of rat, quail, bantam, d.o.c., beef (shank). This is more than enough I beleive, as any vitamins that are given in excess are wasted. The rat is use are lab bred surplus weaners and ex-breeders (so clean as a whistle!), that are fed on diet A. This means the rats are probably the best source of food. I use them to finish off a feed after flying. The birds will do back flips and the tango if I ask them too to get hold of one of these rats (the love em!), even after a good crop of d.o.c. at the end of a long flight.
During the moult the birds are given ex-breeder rats (weigh in at 450g), and will spend two days tearing and eating. This is excellent exercise for the neck muscles! Missus thinks its a bit sick though...dead rat being butcherd by a harris over 36 hours. Still, they love it!

[Hawkmaster]

Gaz how do get the honey into the birds?

[Gaz]

smear it on the chick dude. :mrgreen:

[Bolio]

I'm sure that was a typo Gaz but honey is mostly sugar, not protein.
I use the powdered vitahawk myself, but not every day. One day they'll get a dusting of Raptor Essentials, from the birdcare company, another day Vitahawk, and sometimes a probiotic dusting. They're healthy and I like to think happy as well :lol:

[Hawkmaster]

And moulting is brought on by the photo-period and hormones. Not sure about honey, but drugs can speed it up!

[North East Harris Hawker]

what sort of drugs hawkmaster?

[Hawkmaster]

Now, now we do not want to stat all that do we? What if a total numptie read the info? Sent me a PM and we will chat. I just use a food intake method that works and can do it in about 4 and half months.

[North East Harris Hawker]

yeah that sounds pretty good, i'll take you up on that one 8)

[Hawkmaster]

A chap I know Derek, put his bird down on the 20th of March and it is now on its last deck feather. No drugs only controlling the food intake, the natural way.

[North East Harris Hawker]

well, whatever he is doing I must be doing the opposite, maybe he should give us a bit of advice for a faster moult? is he on here?

[Hawkmaster]

No he hates computers! But seeing as I told him how to do it in the first place I will:

After the hunting season, do all your chores, like coping, health checks and spraying for mites.

Feed up as much as possible with ungutted chicks, rabbit, pheasant etc
Once you see the bird is getting fat and near top weight stick to (Day Old Chicks) DOCs
The day the bird is leaving food is a good indicator that you are there.
Remove old food.
Give the bird 1 to 2 days of no grub. (Remember they do this in the wild, gorge and fast)
On the Third Day when you feed again, make sure it is a high quality food like quail, duck, pigeon or pheasant. Not too much as you want the bird to eat it all.
The next day you can feed the same.
After this go back to low quality like chick.
And repeat the cycle.

What actually happens is the feather go through a slow period and as the high quality food comes it uses it to the full.

If you stick to this you can do it in 4 and half month. Guaranteed!

[North East Harris Hawker]

its something to have a look at hawkmaster, shame ive got the youngsters in there at the minute otherwise i'd give it a go, im too worried there will be fights if i miss out on any feeding as things are!

[Kornie]

Well I for one started Trinitys moult middle of May and she is ready to start flying again. All primaries and tail feathers are out and in my possesion and I'm just waiting for a few of her tail feathers to get to full length!Thats with no supplements at all! :P

And that is no lie!!!!!!! :evil:

[North East Harris Hawker]

i can understand people who have access to plenty of high treeless ground wanting thier birds moulted quickly but personally i dont go out until after the second frost of the year(unless its on moors) to venture out before this risks losing the bird because of the abundance of cover, mind you there is telemetry for this i spose :roll:

[Lady-Luck]

sorry to reopen the thread lol maybe i should satrt another?
we use a powder supplement called guardian angel in the winter twice a week, just a little on the mixed food diet we feed, rub it onto rabbit and deer adn heart and pheasent and quail, and with the day old chicks we gut them all and smear on the openeing rather than in the beak-for some reason our birds arnt to keen on heads lol
once again sorry :)

[Claire]

guardian angel is great especially if you have a bird with no energy perks them right up. mostly we use raptor essentials from the birdcare company its also in powder form so we just sprinkle a bit after deyolking the chicks

[IAmTheWeasel]

Vitahawk almost every day as I feed alot of beef heart and squirrel which are both low on the nutrients scale.

[FalconerUK]

we use raptor essentials to supplemt the food for the missing vits in captive birds daily (USE IE PINCH PER CHICK)Another one we use weekly is bio plus (pro biotic) this helps keep thebirds imune system working well & digestive system,there is also a breeding vitamin that supplements aid fertility,chick growth,feather growth & general health.quail & rat are given weekly also.

[Sparrow Hawker]

Hi,

It's worth noting that supplements used excessively can possibly do more harm than good. I contacted the makers of SA 37 before I started to use it they said go easy on it and not to use too much, they suggested to me not to use it every day.

I am now using "Raptor Essentials" supplement as per instructions.

All The Best,

HH

[TimberDog]

I use Raptor essentals brill stuff