GSP vs GWP training obtaining etc?

[Spart]

First off i couldnt find a dog section if there is one please move!

Ok so which one in peoples opinion is the best for falconry?

Is training difficult (My dear old man Trains Labs he says pointers are a nightmare to train...but he is bias & ancient)

whats a english pointer and what other breeds point?

Hopefully this can be an intresting thread

[North East Harris Hawker]

i work a gsp with my bird (dog) i know that the bitches are a lot more placid and less head strong but i like dogs with charachter, i have seen some good wiries took, it hink they are possibly the two most commonly used dogs worked with hawks in the uk, that said, brittany's are getting really popular too

[Spart]

excuse my ignorance but ....Brittany's?

[Falcon]

Hi Spart It's a Brittany Spaniel, they are becoming very popular with falconers. I personally like the pointers especially the German shorthaired, the English pointer is nice too! You can get Hungarian vizsla's (smooth or wirehaired), they point and several falconers use them. My minds gone blank and I know there are several other breeds that are classed in the HPR (hunt, point, retrieve), oh yeah, the Setters, Irish, English, Gordon etc, etc,
I'm hoping to get myself a pup later this year, not to worried about it being a dog or bitch, but a bitch would be my first choice. I had a GSP before back in 1989, but had to rehome her when I went to College, she passed away nearly two years ago, nice natured and an excellent nose on her! Some falconers use Spaniels, (springers I'm talking about). Anyway thats enough of me waffling on!

[North East Harris Hawker]

working dogs are probably not best suited in the home but im a bit of a soft touch with my gsp, but its hard not to be, they are just so affectionate! i like the gsp's as they dont seem to shed as much hair and they are (to me) nicer to stroke! (such a softy i know :oops: )

it all depends on what bird you fly english pointers are good for long wings shot wing a good alround dog english setters are more for long wing up on the heather moors and they range out that bit further gsp are a good all round dog ie short wings long wings brittanys are good short wing dogs so are english springers and even cockers but the most inportant thing to look for is dogs from working strains uk ck papers or not the working lines will always be better for the job !! never keep a working dog in the house bad habets are easy to pick up ;) the teckle is a good dog for short wing ! i will be breeding my gsp to a english springer next year this is for working qualitys only every one to there own !! .......

[North East Harris Hawker]

i met guy wallace and he always expresses how important working stock are! it only takes three gerenations of pet dogs to make a change in the strain! even though show dogs are pretty, go for the worker everytime!
show dogs are show dogs and workers are workers and never the twain shall meet!

[Falcon]

That knocks the nail on the head NEHH, Here, here I couldn't agree with you more!!

[Spart]

So GWP and GSP pretty much work in the same manner just look somewaht different ?

[Ian Wileman]

I have to disagree with the show is show, work is work thing North. In terriers anyway. I have two border terriers that are from show kennels. BOTH are excellent workers. I have a friend who JUST THIS SATURDAY made his border dog up to champion in the show ring. This dog works his heart out to rat and rabbit, and even bays fox! Not Working? I often wonder about those gun dogs that have Sh. Champion Fld. Champion in front of their pedigree! I think this means Show Champion, and Field Champion!!! Not Working? I agree, pure working strain dogs are generally very good in the field, there is no doubt, but to say that a show dog cannot work is a little nieve, or bias I think. I now a bloke who has THE ugliest border terrier bitch on gods green earth. This bitch is from very well know working lines (so I wont say as I dont want to offend anyone). We went out two weeks ago roughing up some rabbit. My 'show quality none working strain bitches?!?!' had four rabbits. His scratched behind its ear really well. lol.

[Spart]

Maybe its the way the Dog is kept

Eg ...My ole fella who i metioned before.. breeds Black Labs now he gave a pedigree "workin strain" pup to my youngest son, who trained the bitch up ,and had very succsefull 1st season pickking up !! I think on one occasion they picked up 43 brace of pheasent in one day! and they actualy got there photo on the front cover of the shooting times or gazette.
However in the off season the bitch followed him constantly and actually started to live in the house now the dog is totally useless in the field

on the other hand my mates wife has a patterdale terrier who is basicaly a lapdog ...but in the field he is a Star marks occupied rabbit warrens and even at times points now this is without any training what so ever??

food for thought??

maybe some show dogs tend to be spoilt?? in there daily routine

maybe terriers have more instict????

i dunno just ideas not opinions

[North East Harris Hawker]

im sure there will be exceptions to the rule, but im only going on my own observations and on the advice of the experts, from what i have seen the words of guy walace are true, i think its a shame to breed working dogs into the show ring, that is not what they were originally bred for, before you know it there is in breeding and faults occuring, thankfully this is not generally the case with the gsp/gwp's I dont think its morally right for someone to have a true working breed as a pet, it goes against all the effort that was put in to obtain suchg a species :?

[Varmint]

Well i have worked trained and worked both Wirehairs, shorthairs and a Brittany and i would have to say that breeding for work is everything!

I gave away a three year old GWP bitch last year that simply did not show any sign of wanting to work or point despite lots, and lots of Game finding and experience around a fully trained dog.

I have worked some belting wire hairs but have had far more success with GSP's, that said you still need something from Working lines.
Go out and see the parents work if you can.

As for Brittanies, again very good nose (nearly as good as the setter) and both my own one and a close friends started pointing from a very early age.

It has to be said tho, that training a dog well takes as much work if not more than training your bird.

Realsie your own personal time restrictions, both a hawk and a dog in training can be just too much for most people.

Good luck

[Debbie]

Whilst trawling in the US sites for falconry gear etc I noticed many breeders of Dachshunds for use in falconry.

Most adverts said excellent pointers blah blah blah same spiel as we say here for the brittiny's wirehairs etc

I thought interesting, as they are not a breed I would of thought of but why ever not, its only a case of training?

Any thoughts or info anyone?

Debbs

[David & Carol Newby]

Dave has used many dogs for falconry before we got the GSH he uesd a Golden retriver. A bad gun dog is perfect for Falconry. as for a Dachshund... Hummm to flush ? Weren't they used in Germany for Rabbits or something? Longwings need a hardy dog but most people don't use longwings in the states. I know a guy who uses Beagles with his HHs in Tennessee on rabbits. I believe the coat preferance if for the type of hunting you do. Wirehair coats Would be thicker (I really don't know) and would be better used in colder climents because these dogs get wet seeking shot water fowl. These breeds were developed as gun dogs but they have found a good home in falconry years back as well. GSP are the best Family, birdy dogs you can have. I love mine. And if you had a hard headed dog invest in the electric training collar. Our male was a nightmare because he was raised in the CITY and to a lady who worked 75 hours a week if not more. He was 22 months when we ot him and I wanted to kill him. Now he's a pleasure to have and has saved our son from a neighbors attack dog. Awesome Family dogs! Carol

PS they don't stink like some hunting dogs and they are easy cleaning.

[Varmint]

Well folks your all in for a shock cause if you've never met the continental european version of the wirehaired Daschunt "The Teckel"(spelled wrong!)

These are awsome little monsters used to track Boar and deer and easily entered on fox etc..
Wire coat's (like your Beagle) and small enough to get into the tighest cover, they mark rabbit holes for ferreting and can amble along all day on their little queen Anne legs.

Superb dog, and i know a breed that is starting to get used more and more by falconers.

[Troy]

very true varmit ! at the moment i run a gsp but i am thinking of getting rid of her due to her lack of wanting to hunt she has tested me to the limits ! she is of kc lines plent ch in the ped but not ft ch so i think she is going to have to go ! its a shame cos as a pet i like the dog but i never got her to lye in front of the fire i wanted her to work she is in the kennel and gets out in amongst plenty game she just dont want to work ! i fly short wings and was considering getting a teckle for flushing and marking but dont want to take the chance with all this kc stuff thats on the go its hard to find true working dogs from rep breeders ! so ime going to try my kids fell terrier at the job this wee dog has a fire burning in its bellie and all it wants to do is go out into the feild this wee dog cost me nothing and its future is looking good as a worker the only thing ime a wee bit woried about is if it runs in and trys to fight the bird for the quary ! ime sure i can train this out of the wee dog though !! ..............

[Varmint]

Sounds like aplan to me troy!

Best dog i ever saw work with a Gos was a Collie!!!

This thing pointed, flushed, marked the lot...

As you say, all you need in a good dog is that fire in the belly.

[Hawkmaster]

DAMN :?: :roll:

http://www.teckelclub.org/images/tracking_19.jpg

[Varmint]

I sold my last Teckel to a keeper in Glen Lyon last year, but he is now stalking for a living!

When tracking scent they are hilariouse "singing" in their three chord yodal all the way!

This little feller enterd himslef on a badly shot Fox whilst out lamping, tracked it 1/4 mile and then finished it off?

Great, great dogs! (If not a little head strong?)

[The Late Lord Lucan]

DAMN

http://www.teckelclub.org/images/tracking_19.jpg

mmmmmmm, one little sausage dog, and a badly shot deer.......

I can see this dog tracking, but whats it going to do when it gets there?
Jump up and grab the fallow by it's nadgers? :lol: