Nutritional Values

[Fowler]

How do you work out what to give when the food is so different in nutritional value? Like quail and chicks.


I've been giving my HH 2 1/2 - 3 chicks a day to maintain his flying weight. I was trying to figure out how much quail I should give to equal the food value of the chicks. I weighed the chicks then weighed out some quail 'portions'. I know quail is higher is nutritional value so I fed less weight of quail. WELL...he put on like 5/8 of an once.

Fowler

[SSL]

How do you work out what to give when the food is so different in nutritional value? Like quail and chicks.


I've been giving my HH 2 1/2 - 3 chicks a day to maintain his flying weight. I was trying to figure out how much quail I should give to equal the food value of the chicks. I weighed the chicks then weighed out some quail 'portions'. I know quail is higher is nutritional value so I fed less weight of quail. WELL...he put on like 5/8 of an once.

Fowler

Fowler do you use the 22hour system? Was the Quail just meat or feathers bones etc too? Were the chicks skinned?

Just experiment until you get the right balance. Dont think DOC's have a poor nutritional content though, real research (rather than Falconer myth)show them to be quite high, more so than Quail in many ways. But DOC's alone arent a good idea just like Quail alone wouldn't be. They shouldnt be deyolked either other than for Merlins.

Steve.

[Gaz]

They shouldnt be deyolked either

unless its an aviary bird

[Fowler]

The chicks are not skinned, he's get whole chicks yolk included. There was some feather and bone with the quail but mainly meat. I don't know the 22 hour system, can you explain for me, thanks.

Fowler

[Ian Wileman]

[quote=Fowler]

Dont think DOC's have a poor nutritional content though, real research (rather than Falconer myth)show them to be quite high, more so than Quail in many ways. But DOC's alone arent a good idea just like Quail alone wouldn't be. They shouldnt be deyolked either other than for Merlins.

Steve.

Thank goodness for common sense. About time someone said it like it is.....so many falconers out there consider chicks to be of little value, because their mate said so, and his info came from his mate, who got his from....well, you get the picture........I would love to see some REAL scientific information in black and white, performed by nutritionalists that states that DOC's are of no value. My birds get a varied diet, and included in this are DOC's. My birds are in excellent condition.....Sprouts are to some people disgusting (although I love them), yet they are very good for you. Trying eating sprouts (nothing else - just sprouts) for nine months of the year.......you will look great! NOT! But in a balanced diet, there is nothing wrong with eating sprouts, chocolate, salt, sugar, whisky (thank god), strawberry cheescake! GET IT?

[SSL]

Ian Wileman said;

"I would love to see some REAL scientific information in black and white"

Neil Forbes has covered the topic a fair bit.

Steve.

[SSL]

The chicks are not skinned, he's get whole chicks yolk included. There was some feather and bone with the quail but mainly meat. I don't know the 22 hour system, can you explain for me, thanks.

Fowler

Hi Fowler,

To use whole chicks and prepared meat isnt a fair comparison.

The 22 hour system is basically taking a hawk to a weight you know she will be ready to at 22hours later. What this means is if you feed to 2.4 at 10am and the next day at 8am she is on weight say 2.1, then that day you fed to 2.4 but at 3pm the next day she would be on weight at 1pm. Irregular feeding patterns can be a big cause of confusing looks at the scales not just the amount fed. You also need to take into account the acitivity in the day, obviously she will need more food on a day when she flies hard than one where she sits in her weathering, or has a some gentle flying.

No-one can tell you how much to feed your bird, just experiment, use different foods items and weights untill you have it all sussed. Whislt Falconry isnt just about weight control its a huge factor in good Falconry.

Steve.

[Adam Barrett]

i know this is a bit of thread but i have noticed that my harris shows a dislike for rabbit she is very fussy about it and would rather jump of the carcass for a pea size piece of beef-she has not yet been entered on rabbit-has anyone ever had anything like this befor.
cheers
adam

[SSL]

i know this is a bit of thread but i have noticed that my harris shows a dislike for rabbit she is very fussy about it and would rather jump of the carcass for a pea size piece of beef-she has not yet been entered on rabbit-has anyone ever had anything like this befor.
cheers
adam

Let her taste the warm blood covered organs from the rabbit she'll soon tell you where to shove the beef! :)

Steve.

[Adam Barrett]

thanks steve am goin out tomorrow morning so she may get lucky.

[Ian Wileman]

Articles please Steve (I am very interested in reading them)......and has scientific work gone into this or is it just speculation? i.e. Although Neil Forbes is good (I am not disputing this), he is not infalable (he, I am sure will not dispute this), and so, what research has he carried out.....I would like to read this....I am not just playing devils.

[SSL]

thanks steve am goin out tomorrow morning so she may get lucky.

Good luck,
Steve.

[SSL]

Articles please Steve (I am very interested in reading them)......and has scientific work gone into this or is it just speculation? i.e. Although Neil Forbes is good (I am not disputing this), he is not infalable (he, I am sure will not dispute this), and so, what research has he carried out.....I would like to read this....I am not just playing devils.

Probably the best thing is contact Neil himself, its proper scientific research, Nick at Honeybrook will be able to help too.

Steve.

[Ian Wileman]

Tried to find their site, but even if I do a google search doesnt come up with anything leading to it......do you know the web address?

[Ian Wileman]

By the way...is Neil Forbes saying chicks good or bad? There is conflicting information throughout ALL the threads on chick. I am not concerned for myself (I bought 200 today and will buy a further 200 when they run out, but there are people on the sight who are getting confused here...).

[SSL]

Tried to find their site, but even if I do a google search doesnt come up with anything leading to it......do you know the web address?

Neils number is 01793 603 802.

Nicks site is http://www.honeybrookfarm.com/

Good luck,
Steve.

[Ian Wileman]

Found it on another thread...cheers anyway.

[Wightwings]

By the way...is Neil Forbes saying chicks good or bad? There is conflicting information throughout ALL the threads on chick. I am not concerned for myself (I bought 200 today and will buy a further 200 when they run out, but there are people on the sight who are getting confused here...).
i love em with a few farver beans and a nice chianti. f f f f f f f f f f f f

[Debbie]

Neil Forbes says basically that Chick is the best for all round nutritional value.

We nailed him down on this point on the recent raptor first aid course.

They must be fed with the yolk though.


Debbs

[Jiff]

would the birds eat chicks so readilly if they were ****! i feed my bird anything and every thing but never the same food for any period of time,i dont want steak pie every day just cos i like it,chicks are ok,new meat before tampering and a whole natural food stuff. :wink:

[Sniper]

very rarely feed my bird DOC'S she eats what she catches...there is no balanced diet in the wild, they catch what they can, basic law of survival "eat or be eaten", what ever your bird catches when out hunting will give it all the nutrients it needs providing it goes out and kills on a regular basis..in which it should, if it does not then you will need top supplement its diet

[Troy]

doc is just a junk food of the bop world if you ask me ! ime not saying that i dont feed chicks cos i do but not regular ! i havent got loads of birds so i dont realy need to wory about high food bills i think you will find that its the folk that have a few more birds than they need that will argue with you that doc is a good food ! thats only to make themselves feal better cos they feed doc regular and need to convinse themselfs that is a good food with a low cost !! the yolk in day old is very high in colestrial and the chick its self is just protien not much minerals in there ! i know a guy who feeds his breeding birds with doc and the od rabbit but mainly doc and it shows in the young birds there fethers are not very strong and are very britle and dry looking thats just the outside of the birds imagen whats going on inside ? to be honest with you the best food is wild cought food !! this might be a big suprize to you but the only wild food i am wary of is pigion i always gut and de neck and de lung them then freez them before i feed them to my birds enything els i leave gut in unles its going in the freezer i then gut it but i do feed un gutted food to my birds and i have always did so with no problems whatsoever in the 12 years ive been a falconer ! with all the birds ive done this with most of them disgaurd the gut buy themselfs but somtimes have a taste of it i think its in the birds instinkt to take the minerals that the gut contains when they need em !! i must say that when you wach a bop eat a doc they seem to love em lol i also love junk food !!!! enyway this is what i think and not neseserliy true as it is not fact but its the way i do it and have had good results from it so if it aint broken why fix it !! jmo..............

[Kornie]

Until I see someone comes to me with a table of nutritional value I will not say anything. I have chicks are a junk staple diet,but like sniper I feed my bird what she catches. I have however found a very interesting website.

http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/

This website has a nutrient database where it tells you nutritious vlues of all foods. I looked up things like quail, pheasant, rabbit, duck, goose and shin beef. All raw of course. They do not have mice or rats however (understandebly) but i though it might interest some of you.

Note the protein level of pheasant!

[Varmint]

I was interested by several comments in this section?

Firstly Ian, scientific evidence on the nutrition of chicks was produced by an american University in i think 1996?.

Apparently, the test subjects were breeding American Kestrels, who had several pairs and their young fed only on DOC's and several pairs were fed on a mixed natural diet.

The offspring were tested at various stages of their development for muscle growth and development, Calcium levels, hydration levels and organ development
All of the subjects raised on DOC's were superior to those fed on a natural diet?
Try typing in Bird of prey nutrition in your search engine, and after many hours of surfing you may be able to locate this paper.

Also, the removal of Yolk sack,

I think that we are all aware of the hazards of Yolk and the Possibilities of Bacterial infection.
I personally try to remove the yolks whenever possible for a number of reasons, Hygiene, Later secondary infection, feather splat etc, etc
But what most books don't talk about is the proper de frosting of these food items and how bacteria can develop on your hawk food through incorrect prep.
DOC's should be treat like Food intended for human consumption, no de frosting in warm water or microwaves, Never allow the food to become too warm etc, etc.

And to Baywinghawker.

I think it's the fact that your bird is unfamiliar with the rabbit carcass and form as a food item rather than it not likeing the taste. Most young birds when faced with their first rabbit carcass are a little nervous, but feed them daily for two or three days to take their rations and i assure you that it will get the taste and eventually make the connection that these items are edible, therfore worth catching. Most people struggle with Harris Hawks when it comes to initially hunting bunnies, after all if you were a male would you take on something twice, three times your own body weight if you really didn't have to?
To make matters worse, as we all know HHH are very friendly easy going birds and will fly much higher in condition than most other birds, but when it comes to entering them most people start them at too high a weight and therefore don't get the desired result often taking months to get them entered properly and stifling their natural development.
I try to enter my male Harris's on Bunnies rather than anything else working on the simple principle that if they can catch them confidently, they will start to catch most other things eventually.

Sorry for the lecture Guys, hope this of interest or help

[Ian Wileman]

THANK YOU! I new there was nothing wrong with DOC's.....falconers tales me thinks!

[Kornie]

hmm varmint. I cant find it anywhere....nope nowhere at all.......still cant find it..............

:lol: I think id have to see this paper before I beleived it. Im undecided on this one. Ill have another look at finding this paper varmint.

[Hawkmaster]

I have search too, Honeybrook will be sending me some papers they have on the subject, that they did with Dr Forbes.

[Hawkmaster]

Got the booklet, very interesting, looks like chicks are good?

[Jiff]

i would expect that feeding any whole animal would be beneficial,as has been said in the wild they take what they can get when they can get it,i do think that it's more psychological with the falconer rather than the bird that these problems with diet accur,granted a varied diet with anything has to be the ultimate goal,but i also know for a fact that if a human ate only rabbit flesh he would still starve to death,as the vitamins and minerals that are used up digesting the food are not replaced with the poor neutritional value of the flesh,now if the same man ate all of the rabbit including the internal organs the ballance is redressed and the man would survive,with any food stuff i would say it's important to feed the lot.
when feeding from kills open it up and let the bird pick what it wants,in the mew try and replicate what you've whitnessed in the field,d.o.c's form the basis of most diets but with a bit of observasion in the field a falconer can treat his bird occasionaly to it's favourite bits,at this time of year when things could get just a little bit tedious for us and the birds in my opinion is the time when a varied diet is most important,as has been said you don't want steak pie every day because you like it,and as you're bird will be high smaller portions would be given so the cost of a varied diet can be minimal,the most important part i think is the whole animal thing regardless if it's a d.o.c or a quail,rabbit internals or rat but the whole thing must be fed at some point,watch you're bird you'll learn alot more than from any vetinary hand outs.

[Talib]

Got the booklet, very interesting, looks like chicks are good?
Well they would be wouldn't they... Honeybrook who paid for the "research" contained within the booklet sell chicks don't they???
Ask Nick, the owner of Honeybrook, whether he would employ the co-writer to Neil Forbes of that "scientific" booklet again... that's if he could find him.
Suggest you look at originals of any "scientific" papers rather than Honeybrook's "sexed-up" versions.
You might want to ask yourself also, why a prominent raptor vet would want to get involved in a "psuedo scientific" project such as the production of Honeybrook's nutrition booklet with this particular co-writer, a known conman/spin doctor???
Then again, you don't think widespread feeding of nutritionally-deficient chicks would mean more RKBs (raptor keeper bums) on seats in vets waiting rooms, do you???

T.

[RabbitHawker]

********, but I've never heard so much rubbish in my life. I'm sorry if you have a problem with Niel, but he is internationally recognised as a leading avian vet. He has the welfare of all birds at heart and WOULD NOT endorse something that would compromise their welfare.
Personally my view is that DOC are a subsistance diet that birds will live on rather than thrive, but all the different BOP flown will have different food requirements related to their lifestyle and quarry in the wild.
Generally the smaller BOP are more exacting in their requirements as they have a higher metabolic rate, and will require a higher calorific requirement that may not me met by DOC, whereas the larger BOP survive on poorer diets.
I have not fed my birds DOC for years as they catch enough rabbits and pheasantthrough the season, supplemented with steel shot pigeon. One of the advantages of feeding food like this is that you have natural tirings which keep the beak in trim, and picking all the food off a rabbit's head takes time, reducing boredom.

[Sprout]

I agree. Neil is VERY pro prevention rather than cure! Sounds a bit slanderous there Talib! If you've got any scientific evidence to the contrary what Neil and Honeybrook found, and what the Peregrine fund found with the American Kestrels then lets hear it.