Coopers hawk???

[smallhawk]

is any one in the uk flying a coopers and are there any coopers X harris yet??

[OutFlying]

yes and hopefully not.

[Ol0rin]

Are accipiters genetically compatible with parabuteos? I'll be very, very surprised, if so.

[Zarafia]

If I remember correctly there have been some harrisxcoopers crosses. I vaugely remember a photo (I think) of a juvenile looking pretty much as you'd imagine. I think the article mentioned that they were very bad tempered. I'm sure I read it 5-10 years ago in Hawk Chalk or mabey the Journal.
Sorry' I know I havent been much help. And as to the compatability of the two species I wouldnt be suprised if the hybrid babies were sterile (mules).

[Jack]

From all appearences you could probably cross a humming bird with a condor. And yes, there have been Cooper's/Harris hybrids. I have a friend that owned one. I have seen 2 in all and know of a third. The Cooper's likes to perch about 3/4 of the way up a tree or pole and the Harris likes to perch on large objects like transformers. Of all 3 of the hybrids I personally know of, all 3 ended up electrocuted on transformers. I had occasion to experience one male in the field. It was not as fast as a Cooper's hawk, but it could handle large rabbits as well as a Male Harris. Now, I have no idea how they are supposed to act, because the owner was one of the most enept falconers I have even known. The bird was footy and screamed a lot. I have said this before, and I will say it again. When you mix black and white, you get grey. Good and bad and you get mediocre. To get the best of both you must also get the worst of both.

Jack

[Pete J.]

Actually, I was probably fully responsible for making the first ones. I thought it could be done and it was done quite easily. The biggest problem that I saw with them was that most people tried to make them into a Cooper's, fully ignoring the Harris' half. They were intent on making them birdy FIRST, and most harris's have to evolve into birds over time. I can still remember the first one, a tiercel, that had become so frustrated trying to catch birds that it had become quite screamer and a terrible mantler. When I saw it again at one of our early meets I suggested he try it on a bunny just once to see how it would do with them instead. It sucked up the first bunny it saw with little effort with about 20 onlookers. It never looked back. Another one a few years later, a female, had been in the same boat...had been birded to frustration and I suggested we try a bunny. Same thing....caught the rabbit with little effort really. The next day it caught a big jackrabbit and got a serious ride, but the falconer was able to finally bring them to a halt. He fed the hawk up good and we both assumed it would never do a jack again after that. The next day it took one in fine style and killed it by itself.
Another one, a tiercel, was fairly exclusively car hawked on crows and did quite well, taking sometimes 3 a morning in urban settings in the greater Los Angeles suburbs.
Jack mentioned that he thought they were ill-tempered, but they weren't. They seemed very scary looking, but never once did they do any face snatching like a Cooper's would have done under those conditions.
If they were still available I'd fly one now. At the time I was quite overloaded in Barbaries and Goshawks and just couldn't squeeze one in...even though several of them I was doing the hand raising of before they got shipped out. I have some pics of them if any would be interested. I could scan a few and post them if there is any interest.

[harrishawker1]

Please do post a few pictures

[Pete J.]

Please do post a few pictures
I'll scan a few now and post them in a jiffy.

[FredrickFogg]

I would love to have one for car hawking on crows! My coops caught 7 crows this year, but I wouldn't want to fly her on them all the time as she got beat up on just the 7. I would think crows, starlings, and such would be great fun with one!

Fred

[Tim Laycock]

yes and hopefully not.

:supz:

[Pete J.]

Here's a few pics of them (courtesy of Mark Maxcy and Brad Simms).
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff174/petej1956/immyharrisXcoop.jpg
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff174/petej1956/immyfemaleharrisXcoop.jpg
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff174/petej1956/immyharrisXcoopwbunny.jpg
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff174/petej1956/immyharrisXcoopwcrow.jpg
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff174/petej1956/adultharrisXcoop.jpg
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff174/petej1956/adultharrisXcooptiercel.jpg

[Pete J.]

I would love to have one for car hawking on crows! My coops caught 7 crows this year, but I wouldn't want to fly her on them all the time as she got beat up on just the 7. I would think crows, starlings, and such would be great fun with one!

Fred
These were a bit sturdier and they also had amazingly resilient plumage. I'm not sure I ever saw one that had anything even so much as tipped. One thing though...they did not appear to be able to fly with other harris's. Not surprising really.

[Trehy2000]

their is a guy here in ireland ,that plans to cross a gos with a harris. sounds like a gem of a bird

[Pete J.]

their is a guy here in ireland ,that plans to cross a gos with a harris. sounds like a gem of a bird
That was our original intent. Although we got plenty of fertile eggs, very very rarely would any go full term and when they did they didn't last but a few days after hatching and were very weak. My theory is that the quality of eggs is quite different between the two species...one being very porous and wanting to lose moisture readily, while the other is a very smooth egg which tightly holds it's moisture. A cooper's egg has a design very similar to the harris, not the gos. And making a bit of a leap here, I speculated that perhaps the harris and coop likely have some common ancestor in the south where it appears the coop originated and spread northward. Our gos and sharpy on the other hand definitely appear to have a long history based on holarctic lineage (northern circumference of the earth landmasses) with ties to the goshawks and spars of the Old World.
Anyway, once we started getting access to numbers of euroasian goshawks over here there was little need to pursue the gos X harris combo any longer. The eurogos offers what we wanted out of that potential hybrid; larger feet and more tolerant disposition...plus a stronger desire for jackrabbits (hares). Ours will take jacks pretty regularly, but they much prefer bunnies and will wait out a good field loaded with jacks waiting for that one or two bunnies that they seem to know instinctively are there someplace! My female gos could take a jack quite easily, but would only hunt them when the weather was bad (rainy or windy) when she knew there was no chance of seeing a bunny above ground.

[Barry]

Harris x Coopers hawk. Shouldn't that be illegal?
Barry.

[CanadaManada]

Which way did you work the hybridisation?
Male harris into female coops? Strictly artificial insemination?
Justin

[Pete J.]

Which way did you work the hybridisation?
Male harris into female coops? Strictly artificial insemination?
Justin
Yes. We did it with Chihuahuan harris and western Coop here, then someone later did it in the east with Sonoran harris and eastern Coop...they came out bigger of course.

[FredrickFogg]

Harris x Coopers hawk. Shouldn't that be illegal?
Barry.

Interesting? :idea: Why do you think they shoud be illegal? I see no reason with all the other hybrids out there!

Fred

[CanadaManada]

Yes. We did it with Chihuahuan harris and western Coop here, then someone later did it in the east with Sonoran harris and eastern Coop...they came out bigger of course.

As imprints, were they vocal, Pete?
Thanks for sharing this. Very interesting to some of us.
Do you feel they did anything that a MHH could not? You mentioned they were best started on fur before graduating to feather.

I'd try one, if one was available.
Justin

[Pete J.]

As imprints, were they vocal, Pete?
Thanks for sharing this. Very interesting to some of us.
Do you feel they did anything that a MHH could not? You mentioned they were best started on fur before graduating to feather.

I'd try one, if one was available.
Justin
Unfortunately they were Justin. But understand..the people that ended up with them were generally harris' guys and were not well acquainted with the imprinting process...and you can only spoon feed so much of that process over the phone. I think the screaming began in earnest due to frustration of trying to get them into birds when they weren't ready for it. You see the same thing when you push imprint anything too hard at the beginning. I think they would have been much nicer if they had gotten into fur from the beginning. One guy that used to fly alot of Harris's on the east coast said it was one of the neatest birds he had ever had and could catch rabbits in places that a harris' simply could not.
They were generally much more aggressive that mhh for their size. And they were great on the ground in cover. And they flew more like an accipiter...lower and more heat-seeking style than a harris generally is. Their wingover from a few feet up was quick and hard as hell. Plus they had a very wicked almost scary look to their face and head. I liked that part...they just looked deadly!

[CanadaManada]

Fantastic info, Pete.
Did the Male/female combination show the same fertility for both ways? ie: male hh, fem coop or female hh, male coop?
I like your theory on the common ancestry. This would lend some credence to why coopers/gos is, from what I hear, an impossible hybrid.
Justin

[Pete J.]

Fantastic info, Pete.
Did the Male/female combination show the same fertility for both ways? ie: male hh, fem coop or female hh, male coop?
I like your theory on the common ancestry. This would lend some credence to why coopers/gos is, from what I hear, an impossible hybrid.
Justin
I don't anyone that made it the opposite way Justin. The ones I heard of were always made harris into coop. Likely if it were made it would probably work but would produce a bit different bird.
Yeah I haven't heard of anyone getting the gos/coop to work at all. I'll hopefully be trying to do the gos/shin and likely that will work. I like coops, but they do have their difficulties and maybe the gos X shin would produce a similar bird without some of the conflicts seen in coops. The coops is such a neat sized bird for many things.

[Barry]

Interesting? :idea: Why do you think they shoud be illegal? I see no reason with all the other hybrids out there!

Fred
I was being ironic!

[FredrickFogg]

I was being ironic!

Ok! I didn't get it! LOL But that can be expected from me! :rolleyes:

Fred

[Alf]

I think it might a better option to use an American gos with a coopers rather than anything from central Europe/ Russia. New world hawk are more closely related. I think? Alf.

I don't anyone that made it the opposite way Justin. The ones I heard of were always made harris into coop. Likely if it were made it would probably work but would produce a bit different bird.
Yeah I haven't heard of anyone getting the gos/coop to work at all. I'll hopefully be trying to do the gos/shin and likely that will work. I like coops, but they do have their difficulties and maybe the gos X shin would produce a similar bird without some of the conflicts seen in coops. The coops is such a neat sized bird for many things.

[Falcon77]

Could well be wrong, but believe this is parent of the first HarrisxCoppers, it was a while ago.

[Casey]

Nesting on a bin? did it produce rubbish ?( garbage to you yanks):supz::supz:

Think that was the intention of the photo, your humour was lost on me on that one for a moment!!

[Falcon77]

:) Nothing wrong with a bit of recycling

[Pete J.]

That was the coop mother several years later after she began to stop producing fertile eggs at about 7 years old. She wasn't really old enough to stop, I suspect she probably had some medical problem that was causing the infertility and it wasn't investigated very thoroughly. That was also after she been transferred to another breeder as the first breeder had gotten out of falconry at that point. She was a pretty western coop though.
The trash bin was used because it allowed for the nest to be built away from the wall so that you could access the female better for insemination purposes. If they build in a corner they invariably 'stand' for insemination with their cloaca pointed away from you but into the corner. If you try to shift them around you can disturb their mood or miss the opportunity to inseminate completely as they won't stand for more than a few seconds. The trash bin allows you to put some weight inside the can to give the nest platform better stability as well. It also has a tendency to keep the Black Widow spiders from setting up shop beneath the nest where it can cause problems to the mother or chicks at any point. Down where we live Black Widows in the breeding chambers are commonplace in high numbers.
So scoff all you want, but often such ideas as this are built upon years of figuring out better ways of doing things.

[Alf]

Pete it makes sense to me, I would put them in a drain if I thought I could get young out! Alf.

That was the coop mother several years later after she began to stop producing fertile eggs at about 7 years old. She wasn't really old enough to stop, I suspect she probably had some medical problem that was causing the infertility and it wasn't investigated very thoroughly. That was also after she been transferred to another breeder as the first breeder had gotten out of falconry at that point. She was a pretty western coop though.
The trash bin was used because it allowed for the nest to be built away from the wall so that you could access the female better for insemination purposes. If they build in a corner they invariably 'stand' for insemination with their cloaca pointed away from you but into the corner. If you try to shift them around you can disturb their mood or miss the opportunity to inseminate completely as they won't stand for more than a few seconds. The trash bin allows you to put some weight inside the can to give the nest platform better stability as well. It also has a tendency to keep the Black Widow spiders from setting up shop beneath the nest where it can cause problems to the mother or chicks at any point. Down where we live Black Widows in the breeding chambers are commonplace in high numbers.
So scoff all you want, but often such ideas as this are built upon years of figuring out better ways of doing things.

[Pete J.]

I think it might a better option to use an American gos with a coopers rather than anything from central Europe/ Russia. New world hawk are more closely related. I think? Alf.
It has never worked with a Cooper's for some reason. The Cooper's definitely came from different stock than our Gos and Sharpy, both which show a strong relationship to the eurasian stocks of Gos and Spar. Even the Cooper's voice sounds wrong compared to the other two which sound so familiar to the eurasian versions. The Cooper's more than likely is sort of a northern version of the similar Bicolored Hawk from the south. And the Cooper's range in North America barely makes it much into southern Canada, while the much smaller Sharpy goes well up into Canada and even as far north as Alaska. It's not that the prey isn't there for the Cooper's...it just isn't evolved to be that far north. The Harris' is the same way although it comes even much less north of Mexico, even though it is fully capable on quarries further north. It simply doesn't come with the insulation needed. When it gets very cold in southern New Mexico where I live, Harris's are often seen roosting on street lights overnight to keep their feet warm. They certainly aren't dummies those Harris's!

[Jimmy]

Wasn't there an article about one of these in the most recent Chaulk?

[Pete J.]

Pete it makes sense to me, I would put them in a drain if I thought I could get young out! Alf.
:supz:Me too! Last spring I had every imprint merlin I have except one give me a hell of a time allowing proper insemination because they wouldn't stand in the right position. So during the winter I have to come up with different setups for the nesting structures on those two females.

[Alf]

Interesting! From what little I have seen of the Bicolored it always seemed to me a better coopers that has evolved slight different nothing more, I must admit I made enquiries once about the Bicolored . Alf.

It has never worked with a Cooper's for some reason. The Cooper's definitely came from different stock than our Gos and Sharpy, both which show a strong relationship to the eurasian stocks of Gos and Spar. Even the Cooper's voice sounds wrong compared to the other two which sound so familiar to the eurasian versions. The Cooper's more than likely is sort of a northern version of the similar Bicolored Hawk from the south. And the Cooper's range in North America barely makes it much into southern Canada, while the much smaller Sharpy goes well up into Canada and even as far north as Alaska. It's not that the prey isn't there for the Cooper's...it just isn't evolved to be that far north. The Harris' is the same way although it comes even much less north of Mexico, even though it is fully capable on quarries further north. It simply doesn't come with the insulation needed. When it gets very cold in southern New Mexico where I live, Harris's are often seen roosting on street lights overnight to keep their feet warm. They certainly aren't dummies those Harris's!

[Alf]

Pete I have a little imprint AK that hopefully will lay eggs this year only problem was last year although she was standing all be it a token effort in the nest box being as big as I thought possible to make her feel safe in it was still tricky to manoeuvre if I had of been inseminating, hopefully this year she will have her tail in the air and will stand for more than three seconds. Thing is if she doesn’t! Do you know of anyone who has ledge bred these falcons. It would make life a lot more easer.
I could go for the ledge but don’t want to miss another year. Alf.


:supz:Me too! Last spring I had every imprint merlin I have except one give me a hell of a time allowing proper insemination because they wouldn't stand in the right position. So during the winter I have to come up with different setups for the nesting structures on those two females.

[W Jenkins]

is any one in the uk flying a coopers and are there any coopers X harris yet??

Christ i hope not it would be ludicruis
:confused:

ATB


Wullie

[W Jenkins]

their is a guy here in ireland ,that plans to cross a gos with a harris. sounds like a gem of a bird

Lets keep it real gos x harriss f###ing crazy and brings nothin to Falconry.


ATB



Wullie

[Alf]

Do you know that for sure? Alf.

[Jimmy]

Lets keep it real gos x harriss f###ing crazy and brings nothin to Falconry.


How would you know what it might bring?

[Pete J.]

Pete I have a little imprint AK that hopefully will lay eggs this year only problem was last year although she was standing all be it a token effort in the nest box being as big as I thought possible to make her feel safe in it was still tricky to manoeuvre if I had of been inseminating, hopefully this year she will have her tail in the air and will stand for more than three seconds. Thing is if she doesn’t! Do you know of anyone who has ledge bred these falcons. It would make life a lot more easer.
I could go for the ledge but don’t want to miss another year. Alf.
I have tended to use barrels with most of my merlins as they are usually richardson's merlins and they tend to use magpie nests...so they naturally gravitate toward something with a cover over it. But, one merlin I got from another breeder first started laying in a basket, and even with the barrel in there she scrapes on the floor in the pea gravel, so I'm going to put a basket in there for her. The other never had a proper nest as she was an education bird for the first few years, but she is a columbarius merlin from the upper part of Michigan, so likely she came from a crow nest used by merlins. So I had her on a ledge and she scraped in the back corner, of course, which made inseminations a real pain the cloaca!:roll:
One thing that can be effective though is to inseminate when you offer them their food. They often will stand much longer under those conditions. And other than that, maybe try a ledge with a low seperate roof over it, but with plenty of room to get at her, perhaps a foot over the top of the ledge. But again, maybe mount the floor of the ledge itself on a pole or something so you can keep it away from the walls so you can get behind it if necessary. Another thing that might work great would be one of those covered baskets that they sometimes have for cats to sleep in. Seems like it would be plenty roomy enough for you to access her from most anywhere but the back. But I think I would try to do the inseminations just as she comes out for food and make sure that perch is one that gives you good access all the way around. I know that often with merlin females that is the first sign that they are ready to be inseminated as I will give them food and a minute later or so they will make eye contact and just freeze on the food. If I touch them on the lower back the tail goes up and over.

[Pete J.]

How would you know what it might bring?
Not to worry Jimmy. Some people are very resistent to hybrids of any sort, but the reality is, that if it weren't for gyr/peregrines some of these people might still be trying to catch their first grouse with any longwing. People felt the same way about Harris' hawks until someone tried them. Now look at them...they are probably flown in higher numbers than about any other bop in the world!

[Pete J.]

Wasn't there an article about one of these in the most recent Chaulk?
I just talked to a friend that gets Hawk Chalks still, and he said that yes there was an article by a guy that had the original tiercel we made and it was many many years ago that that bird was made. It had died finally of old age and he was desperately trying to find someone that was still making them as he was so impressed with that bird. And this was a staunch Harris' hawker from way way back. It just goes to show you that in the right hands that many birds will shine no matter how many nay-sayers that might be about!

[Jimmy]

Hi Pete.
Yes I'm aware of some of the nay-sayers. I'm always amazed when this type of topic comes up, and people start making certain statements about why????? Then later you hear that they're flying hybrid longwings. I guess it's okay for them, but not us shortwingers. I plan to try the HHxGos cross in the future. And I've already offered a male HH to a friend to imprint, that's gonna try to make some HHxCoops.

[Jimmy]

Pete,
PM me if you want to read the article yourself. I'll scan it for you.

[W Jenkins]

How would you know what it might bring?

Nothing at all Jimmy so until i see or if it happenss then it brings jack sh#t and this my opinion.


ATB



Wullie

[Parabuteo.de]

Pete,

thank you for the pictures.
Could you email me some in
a better quality please?

claas(dot)niehues(at)web(dot)de

Thank you,

Claas :o))

[Falcon77]

do you mean my pictures, if so can pm them in better quality but to be honest not that great. just had a throw away camera, digital wasnt invented back then. The owner of the bird was a fantastic host and produces many quality falcons today. A lot of UK falconers/austringers/hawkers/display givers fly straight Harris's from the male to this hybred.

[MitchellBrad]

:supz::supz:

[smallhawk]

Here's a few pics of them (courtesy of Mark Maxcy and Brad Simms).
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff174/petej1956/immyharrisXcoop.jpg
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff174/petej1956/immyfemaleharrisXcoop.jpg
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff174/petej1956/immyharrisXcoopwbunny.jpg
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff174/petej1956/immyharrisXcoopwcrow.jpg
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff174/petej1956/adultharrisXcoop.jpg
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff174/petej1956/adultharrisXcooptiercel.jpg
lovely pics and thanx a lot for the reply, thats a big help and has started me on my next mission with great interest, might well be glad of your thoughts and info in the near future if poss

[CanadaManada]

This hybrid, along with the HH/RT makes alot of sense to me.
It has the potential to be a nicer coopers, albeit slower, while being a faster harris, albeit meaner. The middle ground between these two is interesting territory.
More people should try to crank these out.
Justin

[Pete J.]

This hybrid, along with the HH/RT makes alot of sense to me.
It has the potential to be a nicer coopers, albeit slower, while being a faster harris, albeit meaner. The middle ground between these two is interesting territory.
More people should try to crank these out.
Justin
That's exactly what happened too! The thing about Harris's, (and don't get me wrong here, a Harris' is a wonderfully efficient game hawk) is that in this area anyway the bunnies and jacks move well ahead of you and begin slinking off. The Harris will see them and take off the fist in a climbing flight until they get up high enough to see the quarry well enough (about 30 ft or or less). Then they just so slowly coast over to where the rabbit is slinking and once over it they do a wingover and nail it. It is perhaps the most effective but uninspired chase that I have seen by any hawk. If you can get a close flush then things get more exciting, but that isn't the norm around here. The Harris' X Coop never used this sort of technique, although they would do the wingover at the end. But they were pumping all the way, there was none of the 'mosey' style seen with the Harris'. And often it was similar to a Gos in style in that the hybrid would close the gap very very quickly if the bunny was just about to make thick cover or a hole, and would catch it at the edge of where it was about to get away. So there was often a deep trench left in the soft sand or gravel that led to where the hawk had just caught it's prey, even if they ended up in the bush at the terminus of the chase..but always pretty much from the side, not down in from the top.

[GoshawkRST]

Hello everyone,

the Gos X Harris was already made, I have talk with a breeder and telled me he flown the tiercel on Magpies, it was a good bird but not as fast and agile as a Goshawk.
Like someone well said at the beggining of the post, if you mix Black and White, you will get Grey. That´s what the breeder also telled me, the bird got some bad points from both birds.
He sold it and is back on goshawks.

Another Gos X Harris was made this year by another spanish breeder, and now this bird is also for sale you can see some fotos here:
http://www.cetreria.com/foro/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=32918

kind regards.

Sergiu...

[Alf]

Do you think a spar/gos would turn out grey? Alf.


Hello everyone,

the Gos X Harris was already made, I have talk with a breeder and telled me he flown the tiercel on Magpies, it was a good bird but not as fast and agile as a Goshawk.
Like someone well said at the beggining of the post, if you mix Black and White, you will get Grey. That´s what the breeder also telled me, the bird got some bad points from both birds.
He sold it and is back on goshawks.

Another Gos X Harris was made this year by another spanish breeder, and now this bird is also for sale you can see some fotos here:
http://www.cetreria.com/foro/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=32918

kind regards.

Sergiu...

[FredrickFogg]

Hello everyone,

the Gos X Harris was already made, I have talk with a breeder and telled me he flown the tiercel on Magpies, it was a good bird but not as fast and agile as a Goshawk.
Like someone well said at the beggining of the post, if you mix Black and White, you will get Grey. That´s what the breeder also telled me, the bird got some bad points from both birds.
He sold it and is back on goshawks.

Another Gos X Harris was made this year by another spanish breeder, and now this bird is also for sale you can see some fotos here:
http://www.cetreria.com/foro/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=32918

kind regards.

Sergiu...

Man, that gos x harris is one ugly looking bird! LOL

Fred

[Tim Laycock]

Do you think a spar/gos would turn out grey? Alf.

Alf,
I think it would be ****.

However, I would like to test this theory :yawinkle: :lol:

[Alf]

Tim although the cross wouldn’t be as good as a spar for small stuff and it wouldn’t be as good as a gos on the big stuff somewhere along the lines there must be a quarry that they would excel at. I am thinking crows! I personally think they would devastate them. Nice 15 oz female with a spars attitude and courage, my god what a hawk!
Alf.


Alf,
I think it would be ****.

However, I would like to test this theory :yawinkle: :lol:

[CanadaManada]

Anyone have the Gos/HH hybrid pics to post?
I can't access the site to see them. Is it down?

[GoshawkRST]

Yes the website sometimes is down ( an " error 500 " message appears ), try again later.

Sparr X Gos ???
Don´t know what to say... I belive it would be something like a very small tiercel goshawk or a very large female sparr... Something useless and limited to quarry.

A female sparr will take from small birds to ducks and other similar quarry.
A goshawk fron magpies to large birds and hares.

An hibrid betwen a Sparr and a Gos , would be something like a raptor only good for medium sized birds... ( just my opinion... ).

Best regards !

[Alf]

At 8 ½ oz this spar pulled down this almost grown cock pheasant.
If she had of weighed 15 oz or 1LB I would say she could have pulled down a full grown one.
It’s all down to bottle and fearlessness spars have courage that goshawks don’t have mix the two and you might just get a 1lb spar that will take on the world! Alf.


http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f177/goshawk4/IMG_0379.jpg

Yes the website sometimes is down ( an " error 500 " message appears ), try again later.

Sparr X Gos ???
Don´t know what to say... I belive it would be something like a very small tiercel goshawk or a very large female sparr... Something useless and limited to quarry.

A female sparr will take from small birds to ducks and other similar quarry.
A goshawk fron magpies to large birds and hares.

An hibrid betwen a Sparr and a Gos , would be something like a raptor only good for medium sized birds... ( just my opinion... ).

Best regards !

[Daave77]

Do you think a spar/gos would turn out grey? Alf.

Forgive my ignorance and lack of shortwing experience, but would a Spar/Gos essentially be much the same as a Coppers Hawk both in size and capability???? I could be falling for the obvious here though.......:confused:

[Alf]

No mate. Alf.

Forgive my ignorance and lack of shortwing experience, but would a Spar/Gos essentially be much the same as a Coppers Hawk both in size and capability???? I could be falling for the obvious here though.......:confused:

[Daave77]

No mate. Alf.

Fair enough! :)

[Alf]

Personally I would like to think they turned out more like a blackspar. Alf.

Fair enough! :)

[GoshawkRST]

It’s all down to bottle and fearlessness spars have courage that goshawks don’t have mix the two and you might just get a 1lb spar that will take on the world! Alf.


This really sounds interesting.
Sparrs are easy going, instinctive and agressive, brave little birds.

Someone have to try to mix this two birds !!!

[Pete J.]

Hello everyone,

the Gos X Harris was already made, I have talk with a breeder and telled me he flown the tiercel on Magpies, it was a good bird but not as fast and agile as a Goshawk.
Like someone well said at the beggining of the post, if you mix Black and White, you will get Grey. That´s what the breeder also telled me, the bird got some bad points from both birds.
He sold it and is back on goshawks.

Another Gos X Harris was made this year by another spanish breeder, and now this bird is also for sale you can see some fotos here:
http://www.cetreria.com/foro/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=32918

kind regards.

Sergiu...
I couldn't get this link to work. Anyone else have the same problem? I'd love to see that bird. As I said, we've tried it many many many times with our american gos and they rarely, if ever, hatched even though fertility was high. Personally, when we didn't have access to the european goses then it was something to consider because our gos is much more difficult to deal with it. Something that would have helped to make it calmer would have been a good thing. And again, for us with the idea of making the gos X shin is mostly because the cooper's can have serious aggression problems and is known for having consistency issues on game. Not that goses and shins don't have these same problems, but it is much rarer with either of them. Perhaps the hybrid would be useful in that regard. We won't know til we try it. And Alf's mention of black spars...I'd love to try one of those where I live because it's often too warm here (it was 80 degrees here last week and 70 day before yesterday) to get much good out of a gos. They overheat pretty quickly even at sunset. But I don't hear much good news about black spars other than they are very difficult to handle (nervousness?). Maybe if a strain of good ones could be had? I'm sure there must be some steadier ones in the population...perhaps some that are taken regionally would be better for falconry purposes than others?

[Pete J.]

This really sounds interesting.
Sparrs are easy going, instinctive and agressive, brave little birds.

Someone have to try to mix this two birds !!!

Seems like I saw a pic someplace of a gos/spar that was made in the UK. Trying to wrack my brain to remember where I saw it? Seems like it was in a book or magazine and it did not have any details because it was very soon after it had hardpenned. That's what is making me think it would be possible with our sharpshin and gos. And our shin is very similar to a spar in it's behavior but much smaller. With our combo we'd probably make a Spar!!:roll:

[Pete J.]

Oops..sorry just scrolled down further and saw the post about that site being down. I'm still catching up on this thread, I'm a bit behind.:oops:

[GoshawkRST]

Hello Pete,

the link is not working since they change the server and in a few days will copy all the fotos on the new server. Sorry, be patience :)

As for the Gos X Spar, if you can find the foto or more info, it would be grate !!!

I don´t know about the Black Sparr´s temperament, I have only seen a pair in a breeding chamber and they where incredibly beautyfull, with those long feets and that sparr shape, they looked like BIG sparrs !!! Awesome birds, still don´t know about they temperament....

Best regards!
Sergiu...

[Pete J.]

Hello Pete,

the link is not working since they change the server and in a few days will copy all the fotos on the new server. Sorry, be patience :)

As for the Gos X Spar, if you can find the foto or more info, it would be grate !!!

I don´t know about the Black Sparr´s temperament, I have only seen a pair in a breeding chamber and they where incredibly beautyfull, with those long feets and that sparr shape, they looked like BIG sparrs !!! Awesome birds, still don´t know about they temperament....

Best regards!
Sergiu...
I'll see if I can remember where I saw that pic of the gos/spar. As for the Black spars...I know they are put together quite nicely and seem to have all the right equipment. I have read a bit about them in some articles way back and they are serious 'bird only' hunters. I wonder if that part is true because that would limit them around here. Even a Cooper's will take a bunny now and again, which we have nice small bunnies here that are fun to hunt. It seemed in these articles though the Blacks were consistently outdone when comparing them to the more easy going African Goshawk or at least comparable during the same period of time. And that has to be due to handling issues for the one over the other. If they happen to be very nervous then it may be that they are just not as successful due to that issue. It doesn't mean they aren't deadly. It simply means that keeping them focused might be more trouble than it's worth. I think we need better data on them though. I'd like to volunteer!:lol::supz:

[Alf]

Pete I haven’t heard of any spar/gos being produced heard reports of fertile eggs from female spars inseminated with goshawk semen but from what I can remember the eggs died at pip.
I wonder if there might be better results from musket semen going into a female gos?
I have a young musket at the moment that could possible be a candidate for giving voluntary.
Alf.

[Pogger]

Here are the harrisxgos pics. I just happen to copy them when the site was working.

[Ben C]

:roll::confused::(

[SparsTheOne]

Here are the harrisxgos pics. I just happen to copy them when the site was working.


did this hawk make it to adult hood,or are they have the same problem as the coopers x harris,dieing young?


jase.

[Alf]

Don’t think this gos has had much effect on this Harris apart from it being a lot prettier. The coops cross looks far better. Alf

Here are the harrisxgos pics. I just happen to copy them when the site was working.

[Pete J.]

did this hawk make it to adult hood,or are they have the same problem as the coopers x harris,dieing young?


jase.
There was something wrong with your crosses since I heard they died young. Ours did not. One guy just had his accidently kill itself hitting some rocks under some heavy cover it had hit trying to get a bunny. If I remember right we made that bird in '92 or so. It was still going strong. He desperately wants another according to the article he wrote that I just read. And he was a dyed in the wool Harris' man.
Pete J.

[Pete J.]

Here are the harrisxgos pics. I just happen to copy them when the site was working.
Thanks for sharing Pogger. Glad I get to see it finally. Interesting that it doesn't look that much different than the Harris' X Cooper's in immature plumage. I wonder which way that one was made? Harris' into Gos or Gos into Harris? I always tried Harris into Gos as did many other people. I know of one guy that got two to hatch but they died almost right away and were very weak. I heard of one other that actually made it to 18 days and was doing well, but had an accident when a gust of wind came up and a sheet of plywood braced against the wall (or something) fell on it while it was playing in the yard. I think it might work better going Gos into Harris. I have a semen donoring Gos now but no imprint egglaying Harris' around to try it.
Thanks again.
Pete J.

[MusketMad]

WHAT A FANTASTIC THREAD ..GREAT PHOTOS GUYS:supz:

[Pete J.]

Pete I haven’t heard of any spar/gos being produced heard reports of fertile eggs from female spars inseminated with goshawk semen but from what I can remember the eggs died at pip.
I wonder if there might be better results from musket semen going into a female gos?
I have a young musket at the moment that could possible be a candidate for giving voluntary.
Alf.
In general I think it is somewhat easier (in my experience) getting out larger hybrids from smaller eggs. Things can get tight for them and often they need some help out at pip as they have trouble turning.Often you have to do surgery if the yolk is unretracted, but that isn't as bad as it sounds. I've done it twice at 2 a.m. by myself with very small chicks.
But in the bigger egg they don't get quite big enough and don't fill up the egg as well to cut their way out. So if you try it that way Alf I would look for a small gos female for your earlier attempts. If it works for you then maybe try a larger gos subspecies (Finnish for instance). I'll be trying with the Shin as I said. I can't imagine how small the chicks will be as a female Shin is actually smaller than a Merlin...and Merlins lay BIG eggs for their size!:roll: I hope I don't have to do surgery....I don't think my eyes are up to it!

[Pete J.]

Pete I haven’t heard of any spar/gos being produced heard reports of fertile eggs from female spars inseminated with goshawk semen but from what I can remember the eggs died at pip.
I wonder if there might be better results from musket semen going into a female gos?
I have a young musket at the moment that could possible be a candidate for giving voluntary.
Alf.
I saw the b/w picture of it someplace Alf. It looked basically like an immature Coop but with a bit heavier tarsi. I have no idea what size it was though as there was nothing in the pic that you could relate it to. It wasn't on the fist as I recall. Still wracking my brain on where I saw it. Waiting for the Ginko biloba to kick in!!!:grin:

[Alf]

Pete I would dearly love to see it.
ALF.

[Slippery Teal]

Here are the harrisxgos pics. I just happen to copy them when the site was working.

I would'nt have one given to us look at the legs in the third pic

[Ben C]

I knew a woman with legs that wide apart once..............it all ended in tears.

[Slippery Teal]

I knew a woman with legs that wide apart once..............it all ended in tears.

:lol::lol::lol: CLASSIC

[Ben C]

It would be a good hawk for horseback....................but I am not sure if you could find a horse wide enough for it to ride.

[smallhawk]

im so glad i asked about the coopers x harris as iv picked up some fantastic info about all sorts and am fully inspired towards trying to get and fly one of these birds. thanks to all you evidently very knowledgeable people who have posted, its been great readinghttp://www.falconryforum.co.uk/images/icons/icon14.gif

[Pete J.]

I knew a woman with legs that wide apart once..............it all ended in tears.
LOL...well obviously you might want to check again as I'm pretty sure it's a tiercel and that's as close as it's legs can get together for obvious reasons!

[Athene]

This bird was done putting harris into goshawk. It's a 2007 bird, we'll see how it moults out. By the way, I know the breeder. First try, and gets it. The chap is quite good with birds.

[Casey]

I would'nt have one given to us look at the legs in the third pic

Even worse than the Gos x harris, check out the handlers head in photo 4 it has turned into a large light bulb!! Falconer x lightstand?:lol:

[BarbaryHawking06]

Pete I haven’t heard of any spar/gos being produced heard reports of fertile eggs from female spars inseminated with goshawk semen but from what I can remember the eggs died at pip.
I wonder if there might be better results from musket semen going into a female gos?
I have a young musket at the moment that could possible be a candidate for giving voluntary.
Alf.

gos/spars were being produced a couple of years back in Germany, not for producing a top predator but rather as a proof of captive breeding (No DNA tests at that time) but as usual they turned out to be killing machines and all killed themselves while hunting. In tho book of Heidenreich about raptor medicine there is a pic of one. They were all done by male gos into spar

[BarbaryHawking06]

Tim although the cross wouldn’t be as good as a spar for small stuff and it wouldn’t be as good as a gos on the big stuff somewhere along the lines there must be a quarry that they would excel at. I am thinking crows! I personally think they would devastate them. Nice 15 oz female with a spars attitude and courage, my god what a hawk!
Alf.

what about a female Cooper's hawk???

[Pete J.]

gos/spars were being produced a couple of years back in Germany, not for producing a top predator but rather as a proof of captive breeding (No DNA tests at that time) but as usual they turned out to be killing machines and all killed themselves while hunting. In tho book of Heidenreich about raptor medicine there is a pic of one. They were all done by male gos into spar
AHA!!!!! That's where I saw that pic! And I don't have that book but I did browse through a friend's copy and that's why I couldn't remember it being in my own books or magazines. Thanks, now I can put my mind at ease cause I was thinking that maybe I had dreamt seeing that photo. Whew! I'm okay afterall!!!!!:supz:

[Alf]

What about it? Alf.

what about a female Cooper's hawk???

[Pete J.]

what about a female Cooper's hawk???
Coop's can be difficult and inconsistent for one thing. And their aggression level can leave a bit to be desired. And I knew a guy that flew an Eastern Coop here on quail but there were also lots of Desert Cottontail rabbits that she could not resist. It did not take her many of those before she broke her leg. The Harris/Coops were much sturdier in the leg department with a much more powerful grip, as you would expect. There were some pluses and some minuses, much as you get with any species. The hybrid isn't a magic bullet, but it does offer options. I think it's great that there are those that are totally against them and don't want to fly one. Leaves more of these birds for the rest of us!!!:supz:

[BarbaryHawking06]

What about it? Alf.

you were talking about a spar with attitude just that little bit bigger to tackle crows---------- female Coopers

[Pete J.]

you were talking about a spar with attitude just that little bit bigger to tackle crows---------- female Coopers
I have one in my backyard EVERY SINGLE DAY for the last several weeks harassing my pigeons. Sits on the roof of the loft most of the day unless she needs so shade. Want her Alf? She's a passager!!:wink:

[Alf]

Don’t think so? I personally feel they would outclass any coopers.
I have flown an imprint male coopers and he lacked the blistering pace of the spar off the fist.
If your lucky and you can breed enough to pick and choose you could end up with a big spar a very big spar!. Alf. .


you were talking about a spar with attitude just that little bit bigger to tackle crows---------- female Coopers

[BarbaryHawking06]

Don’t think so? I personally feel they would outclass any coopers.
I have flown an imprint male coopers and he lacked the blistering pace of the spar off the fist.
If your lucky and you can breed enough to pick and choose you could end up with a big spar a very big spar!. Alf. .

one is none, if you had flown only one spar and that would have been a **** bird (I have heard of at least one spar that didn't want to hunt) what would you think about spars then??? Fly ten Coopers and then we can talk about the subject. I didn't, I have flown only two of them, one was perfect killing magpies in a breathtaking style in very long slips and the other one was a slow starter that finally managed to kill something. For the future I think for myself a hacked imprint would be the way to go.

[Alf]

Had mates that have flown females they too lacked the blistering pace of the spar off the fist.
Magpies for a hawk the size of coopers should be a peace of ****.
Try hunting wild winter grey partridge see how your coopers does then.
Alf.


one is none, if you had flown only one spar and that would have been a **** bird (I have heard of at least one spar that didn't want to hunt) what would you think about spars then??? Fly ten Coopers and then we can talk about the subject. I didn't, I have flown only two of them, one was perfect killing magpies in a breathtaking style in very long slips and the other one was a slow starter that finally managed to kill something. For the future I think for myself a hacked imprint would be the way to go.

[BarbaryHawking06]

Had mates that have flown females they too lacked the blistering pace of the spar off the fist.
Magpies for a hawk the size of coopers should be a peace of ****.
Try hunting wild winter grey partridge see how your coopers does then.
Alf.

it was two males that I have flown, but I know from some guys in Spain that flew them with great success at redlegs

[Alf]

Redlegs aren’t wild greys. Alf.

it was two males that I have flown, but I know from some guys in Spain that flew them with great success at redlegs

[BarbaryHawking06]

Redlegs aren’t wild greys. Alf.

in Spain there are wild (this means not released) red legs and I doubt that they are slower than greys, I would rather say they are faster, but ............. what do I know

[Alf]

Unfortunately I haven’t had the chance to hunt wild redlegs here in the UK there just aren’t any here in the northeast only wild greys so I cant say that a redlegs is more sporting than a greys apart from the fact I have heard they tend more to run than fly.
If you say there are coopers taking theses redlegs then who am I to doubt you.
One thing I will ask though is there anyone on this forum taking fit wild grey partridge off the fist with coopers? Alf.



in Spain there are wild (this means not released) red legs and I doubt that they are slower than greys, I would rather say they are faster, but ............. what do I know

[Mac]

i would love to try a spar/gos i think they would be a brilliant.

has ferru/coopers been attempted?

[Pete J.]

Unfortunately I haven’t had the chance to hunt wild redlegs here in the UK there just aren’t any here in the northeast only wild greys so I cant say that a redlegs is more sporting than a greys apart from the fact I have heard they tend more to run than fly.
If you say there are coopers taking theses redlegs then who am I to doubt you.
One thing I will ask though is there anyone on this forum taking fit wild grey partridge off the fist with coopers? Alf.
As I have said elsewhere on other posts... it's the 'trigger' of the Coop that is partly the reason they aren't more popular. You can get one every once in awhile that is a bit more pizzazz'd, but it does seem to be one of their two biggest shortfalls... aggression is the other. This trigger effect shows as either a slow calculated attack off the fist or no attack. But started off right I think they could be much better and I have heard of some excellent ones. And the eastern Coop appears to be the more level-headed and cooperative...unfortunately it is the less colorful but larger one.
I've been watching this passage in the backyard (a haggard flew by a little bit ago but didn't stay) and she has been taking shots at the pigeon flock sitting on the roof of the house. It's fairly windy out (15-20 mph) and she is doing quite well in her attempts, coming very close to catching one of them going into the wind. You tell she isn't that hungry too.

[Pete J.]

i would love to try a spar/gos i think they would be a brilliant.

has ferru/coopers been attempted?
Not to my knowlege over here anyway. Not sure I'd want to do that anyway. I've been around coops (trained ones and wild) and have flown an imprint ferrug female. Very aggressive both of them are. I don't think I want a larger more aggressive coop!:roll:

[BarbaryHawking06]

As I have said elsewhere on other posts... it's the 'trigger' of the Coop that is partly the reason they aren't more popular. You can get one every once in awhile that is a bit more pizzazz'd, but it does seem to be one of their two biggest shortfalls... aggression is the other. This trigger effect shows as either a slow calculated attack off the fist or no attack. But started off right I think they could be much better and I have heard of some excellent ones. And the eastern Coop appears to be the more level-headed and cooperative...unfortunately it is the less colorful but larger one.
I've been watching this passage in the backyard (a haggard flew by a little bit ago but didn't stay) and she has been taking shots at the pigeon flock sitting on the roof of the house. It's fairly windy out (15-20 mph) and she is doing quite well in her attempts, coming very close to catching one of them going into the wind. You tell she isn't that hungry too.


I would totally agree, I think the problem of the Coopers is of behavioural nature they can be fast and overhaul anything but they just won't in some hands. I have never seen a wild Coopers hunting, i saw some just flying when I was in the US a couple of years back so I can't make a comment on that,
probably they are harder to get to show the peak performance of a Euro spar but as I said I can't imagine them to be slower. Just as there are very few falconers everywhere that regularly catch grey partridges off the fist with a goshawk, (either finnish or German gosses) Yesterday I saw a flight of a wild haggard male goshawk at a wild grey partridge, the partridge was flying full tilt towards me and the goshawk closed the gap in a terrific pace and would have caught it, but I interfered (I still have a month to fly my tiercel barb).
Show me a falconry bird that is capable of doing so, I could ask, but I know that every falconer is rather limited in its capabillities (time, space, lack of game...............) So is the problem with the Coopers, I strongly believe, that if started early on game birds, flown in a healthy condition (round chest) being fit, a Coopers can outpace a wild grey in level flight still in November.
Will it? Don't know but if I had more game I would try it, currently I just got enough partridge that on a good day I can get 2 slips, average one and on bad days none so I rather keep them for my tiercel barb.

[Pete J.]

I would totally agree, I think the problem of the Coopers is of behavioural nature they can be fast and overhaul anything but they just won't in some hands. I have never seen a wild Coopers hunting, i saw some just flying when I was in the US a couple of years back so I can't make a comment on that,
probably they are harder to get to show the peak performance of a Euro spar but as I said I can't imagine them to be slower. Just as there are very few falconers everywhere that regularly catch grey partridges off the fist with a goshawk, (either finnish or German gosses) Yesterday I saw a flight of a wild haggard male goshawk at a wild grey partridge, the partridge was flying full tilt towards me and the goshawk closed the gap in a terrific pace and would have caught it, but I interfered (I still have a month to fly my tiercel barb).
Show me a falconry bird that is capable of doing so, I could ask, but I know that every falconer is rather limited in its capabillities (time, space, lack of game...............) So is the problem with the Coopers, I strongly believe, that if started early on game birds, flown in a healthy condition (round chest) being fit, a Coopers can outpace a wild grey in level flight still in November.
Will it? Don't know but if I had more game I would try it, currently I just got enough partridge that on a good day I can get 2 slips, average one and on bad days none so I rather keep them for my tiercel barb.
I often see Coops hunting from a pitch here. There is a serious lack of trees in many places but the low cover is attractive for both quail and white-winged doves and both will loaf under this brush beginning in mid-morning when the thermals are good. A coop will come over at about 200-400 ft. and then stoop at the cover. Before it gets down the prey will usually all flush as one and the coop just levels off behind one taking it quite easily. I've often thought that maybe this might be a useful way to train them as it gives them time to make up there mind as they seem to prefer to see and watch quarry before they launch attacks. It's there tendency to want to see before they go which frustrates their ability to flash attack like the gos, spar and shin. Some definitely learn it and I think early training helps this significantly. And one long time coop flyer said that imprinting them to quarry by feeding whole carcasses when they are brancher age also helps them to ease into quarry as soon as they can fly.
I would assume that they could hold a grey partridge if they got hold of one, but maybe not. The 'buzz' of a grabbed partridge is pretty intense and strong as you likely have noticed with the barbary tiercel.

[Alf]

I started my male coops on September partridge he lacked the pace to grab one on the flush. Same hawk was fit as anything he would follow on for miles he just lacked the initial burst of speed needed in the first 20 meters to have a chance of pulling a partridge out of the sky. I am not talking long flights with goshawks that can over power them in a tail chase I am on about partridge getting up within 10 meters of the hawk and it being fast enough to leave the fist to intercept for the bind in flight.
I am not taking anything away from the coops but there not as fast FULL STOP! as spars over the first 20 meters. Alf.



I would totally agree, I think the problem of the Coopers is of behavioural nature they can be fast and overhaul anything but they just won't in some hands. I have never seen a wild Coopers hunting, i saw some just flying when I was in the US a couple of years back so I can't make a comment on that,
probably they are harder to get to show the peak performance of a Euro spar but as I said I can't imagine them to be slower. Just as there are very few falconers everywhere that regularly catch grey partridges off the fist with a goshawk, (either finnish or German gosses) Yesterday I saw a flight of a wild haggard male goshawk at a wild grey partridge, the partridge was flying full tilt towards me and the goshawk closed the gap in a terrific pace and would have caught it, but I interfered (I still have a month to fly my tiercel barb).
Show me a falconry bird that is capable of doing so, I could ask, but I know that every falconer is rather limited in its capabillities (time, space, lack of game...............) So is the problem with the Coopers, I strongly believe, that if started early on game birds, flown in a healthy condition (round chest) being fit, a Coopers can outpace a wild grey in level flight still in November.
Will it? Don't know but if I had more game I would try it, currently I just got enough partridge that on a good day I can get 2 slips, average one and on bad days none so I rather keep them for my tiercel barb.

[larkvet]

there's a good picture of a coopers x harris in Nick Fox's book - Understanding the Bird of Prey.

I might try and scan it and post it.....:eek:

[Pete J.]

there's a good picture of a coopers x harris in Nick Fox's book - Understanding the Bird of Prey.

I might try and scan it and post it.....:eek:
It's already posted someplace..maybe the other thread though.

[GoshawkRST]

Can someone scan and post the foto of the spar X gos , from that book you mention ???

[larkvet]

there is a picture of one in Nick Fox's book - Understanding the Bird of Prey.

:D

[GoodFooter]

I started my male coops on September partridge he lacked the pace to grab one on the flush. Same hawk was fit as anything he would follow on for miles he just lacked the initial burst of speed needed in the first 20 meters to have a chance of pulling a partridge out of the sky. I am not talking long flights with goshawks that can over power them in a tail chase I am on about partridge getting up within 10 meters of the hawk and it being fast enough to leave the fist to intercept for the bind in flight.
I am not taking anything away from the coops but there not as fast FULL STOP! as spars over the first 20 meters. Alf.

That quite intersting I flew a female coops from jeremy edwards a season after I had an imprint spar. I thought the coops was faster (from about40ft) but as I didnt have the two together openly admit comparison is close to impossible and didnt have redlegs nor greys to test them . I had this same conversation with someone else who agreed with you .....so its looking like my memory is going or that my spar was **** and coops good??
I certainly remember thinking that I thought it would be hard to get a better bird for partridge and bearing in mind the coops was PR so sharper than the spar she was happy to take on longer slips than the spar. the only reason I'd try another coops would be if I had good partridge ground.

Atb Rob

[Mark Collins]

there is a picture of one in Nick Fox's book - Understanding the Bird of Prey.

:D

Its a coopers/harris.

[Parabuteo.de]

Spar x Gos were bred by a friend here in Germany.
They did it only once and all of the offspring died due+to hawking
accidents. They called them Sperbichte (Sperber = german for Sparrowhawk,
Habicht = German for Goshawk).

Will look for pictures,

Claas

[CanadaManada]

Spar x Gos were bred by a friend here in Germany.
They did it only once and all of the offspring died due+to hawking
accidents. They called them Sperbichte (Sperber = german for Sparrowhawk,
Habicht = German for Goshawk).

Will look for pictures,

Claas

Was it done male gos into female spar?

[Alf]

Lot of hearsay spar/gos but no proof just yet, where are these photos? Alf

[Casey]

As Kent Brockman (Simpsons) would say,

" My two cents...........You have a harris. Excellent all round tame rabbit killer. Ideal for those who can't get out hawking every day.

You have a Gos. Excellent fur and feather killer, though needs a lot of time, work and skill.

You have a Spar. Excellent, flash fast and superb on smaller prey, lots of time work and skill required.

In this reporters opinion (UK Only) ....Choice enough?"

Why do you need to dull down an accipiter by mixing it with a broadwing? If you want something faster get a Gos, Spar, Coops or Sharpie.

It is like sticking a few engine mods to your car to make it go faster where there is a faster marque already available.

Whilst this thread is interesting, don't lose sight of what mother nature has created, nurtured and evolved over time.

....Just my two cents!!!

[Pete J.]

......

Whilst this thread is interesting, don't lose sight of what mother nature has created, nurtured and evolved over time.

....Just my two cents!!!

Exactly the point, it's interesting. Something different. Not meant to replace anything. Just meant to be something different. So much worry over something so natural for human beings to be interested in. We are an inquisitive species and for many of us, that's why we are involved in the sport in the first place. To try to understand what makes these birds tick, to see them in action, to be a part of their lives...to investigate the possibilities on various quarries, to investigate various handling and rearing and training techniques.
Still scratching my head that so many people just don't understand why there is interesting in such crosses. Truly amazing that it can't be recognized for what it is...an investigation!!

[Casey]

Exactly the point, it's interesting. Something different. Not meant to replace anything. Just meant to be something different. ..............Still scratching my head that so many people just don't understand why there is interesting in such crosses. Truly amazing that it can't be recognized for what it is...an investigation!!

.....interesting it is...No denying it. Ever wondered why mongrels and X breeds never get shown in dog shows?? Cos they are just that, why bother when you can have the genuine article!! Give someone who wants a working pedigree dog a choice between a cross breed ( thought I'd stick a bit of labrador in my GSPt to help it retreive better!!) or a pedigree and I think I know what the answer will be!

Different to me screams of "couldn't make a pure breed work or can't be arsed to put in the time and trouble to fly a pure breed"

I think that's three cents BTW:roll:

Still scratching my head to work out why you'd bother?:wink:

[Alf]

Ever wondered why pedigrees that are shown in shows never seem to hunt like the others do!?
I have a cross bred gwp / god knows what, and she is the best dog I have owned.
Sometimes in life you do get the best of the bunch.
I am not scratching anything I think a hybrid spar/ gos would be the dogs balls.
Alf.


.....interesting it is...No denying it. Ever wondered why mongrels and X breeds never get shown in dog shows?? Cos they are just that, why bother when you can have the genuine article!! Give someone who wants a working pedigree dog a choice between a cross breed ( thought I'd stick a bit of labrador in my GSPt to help it retreive better!!) or a pedigree and I think I know what the answer will be!

Different to me screams of "couldn't make a pure breed work or can't be arsed to put in the time and trouble to fly a pure breed"

I think that's three cents BTW:roll:

Still scratching my head to work out why you'd bother?:wink:

[Wingless]

.....interesting it is...No denying it. Ever wondered why mongrels and X breeds never get shown in dog shows?? Cos they are just that, why bother when you can have the genuine article!! Give someone who wants a working pedigree dog a choice between a cross breed ( thought I'd stick a bit of labrador in my GSPt to help it retreive better!!) or a pedigree and I think I know what the answer will be!

Different to me screams of "couldn't make a pure breed work or can't be arsed to put in the time and trouble to fly a pure breed"

I think that's three cents BTW:roll:

Still scratching my head to work out why you'd bother?:wink:

I generally agree with what you're saying about hybrids, yes nature has done the work in most cases. BUT, dog breeds only came about through people mixing and matching dogs which had qualities they desired - at some point someone probably did stick some sort of lab thing into a GSP thing and got a pointer that retrieved a bit better. Breeds are not species and can't be compared, infact by supporting dog breeds and how useful they are, you almost shoot yourself in the foot because the argument then becomes why not breed an Accipter domesticus :rolleyes: (which i really disagree with)...

Robbie

[Casey]

Ever wondered why pedigrees that are shown in shows never seem to hunt like the others do!?
I have a cross bred gwp / god knows what, and she is the best dog I have owned.
Sometimes in life you do get the best of the bunch.
I am not scratching anything I think a hybrid spar/ gos would be the dogs balls.
Alf.

Alf,

A spar/gos with dog balls? Surely it would not get off the ground!!:lol::lol:

I'm scratching my arse cos it itches!!:roll:

[Alf]

Chris if I phoned you in June and said “ Chris I have produced two female Spar/goshawks, I want to fly one I would like you to fly the other” would you knock me back? Alf.

Alf,

A spar/gos with dog balls? Surely it would not get off the ground!!:lol::lol:

I'm scratching my arse cos it itches!!:roll:

[Casey]

Chris if I phoned you in June and said “ Chris I have produced two female Spar/goshawks, I want to fly one I would like you to fly the other” would you knock me back? Alf.

Alf,

I'm afraid with a Spar, a musket and a Harris I'd have precious little time to fly a fourth!!

Chris

[Alf]

Make room I know I would. :yawinkle: Alf

[Casey]

Make room I know I would. :yawinkle: Alf

I refuse to answer that on the grounds that it might nullify my argument:wink:

Seriously though, wouldn't a coops do a similar job?

Chris

[Alf]

Chris if you look at the wing shape the long bird catching toes of the spar the robust thick set of the gos match them together would you end up with a coops?
Alf.


I refuse to answer that on the grounds that it might nullify my argument:wink:

Seriously though, wouldn't a coops do a similar job?

Chris

[Casey]

Chris if you look at the wing shape the long bird catching toes of the spar the robust thick set of the gos match them together would you end up with a coops?
Alf.

I have no idea mate, I'll comment when I see some photo's.

[FredrickFogg]

I started my male coops on September partridge he lacked the pace to grab one on the flush. Same hawk was fit as anything he would follow on for miles he just lacked the initial burst of speed needed in the first 20 meters to have a chance of pulling a partridge out of the sky. I am not talking long flights with goshawks that can over power them in a tail chase I am on about partridge getting up within 10 meters of the hawk and it being fast enough to leave the fist to intercept for the bind in flight.
I am not taking anything away from the coops but there not as fast FULL STOP! as spars over the first 20 meters. Alf.

Correction, "Yours" wasn't as fast! Don't lump them all into a catagory from the couple that you have flown! Very common error among falconers! :lol:

[Goshawk]

Very interesting stuff!!! Thanks Pete, I did not know half this stuff was possible!!! This interesting thread looks like it is going to spawn some very interesting debates...Hybrid Vigor V/S Mother Nature's Evolution...Gavin

[Alf]

Fred I have the advantage of flying both you I believe have only flown one?:box: Alf.

Correction, "Yours" wasn't as fast! Don't lump them all into a catagory from the couple that you have flown! Very common error among falconers! :lol:

[BlueJack]

Pete have you ever thought about putting your basket or barrell or whatever on a lazy susan? That way you cuold rotate the nest at will and have better access to your target.
Keith

[Pete J.]

Pete have you ever thought about putting your basket or barrell or whatever on a lazy susan? That way you cuold rotate the nest at will and have better access to your target.
Keith
Something to think about for the future. Thanks for the suggestion.
Part of the problem with something like that though is that the nest needs to be a pretty rigid structure, so if it would be able to be turned it would have to be pretty stiff or they would feel it was not a worthy place to nest. And in actuality, part of this 'face on' thing is their hard wired behavior. So if you turned it they would turn again as well, or they'll just split to another perch. They don't give you that much time generally...under 10 secs for most of the smaller species. So it doesn't give you much time to turn them and get the insemination device ready and aimed while moving their tail out of the way and perhaps having to move the lower panel feathers for a clear view of what your target is. The more receptive females make it pretty easy, but the more frigid females make it very stressful and rushed. It can and will age you quite nicely.;)

[BlueJack]

Geeez it sounds like marriage.;-)

[Goshawk]

Geeez it sounds like marriage.;-)
:supz::supz::supz:

[FredrickFogg]

Fred I have the advantage of flying both you I believe have only flown one?:box: Alf.

True, but that doesn't prove that your coops was a good one! So hard for you to make a general statement about all coops. If I flew one spar and it turned out ****, would I be able to say that all spars aren't as quick as the coops I had? Think about it! :lol:

[Alf]

Fred I am sure you know the capabilities of the coops you guys in the USA seem to get far better result than we do here in the UK.
You could be right and I might not have seen this hawks true potential.
Maybe I am too set in my ways trying to compare two hawks when each have there own outstanding attributes.
The coops is a formidable predator and is held with high esteem throughout the falconry world I know you think highly of them and rightly so. Alf.



True, but that doesn't prove that your coops was a good one! So hard for you to make a general statement about all coops. If I flew one spar and it turned out ****, would I be able to say that all spars aren't as quick as the coops I had? Think about it! :lol:

[FredrickFogg]

Fred I am sure you know the capabilities of the coops you guys in the USA seem to get far better result than we do here in the UK.
You could be right and I might not have seen this hawks true potential.
Maybe I am too set in my ways trying to compare two hawks when each have there own outstanding attributes.
The coops is a formidable predator and is held with high esteem throughout the falconry world I know you think highly of them and rightly so. Alf.

And you of the spar! So I say the best way to settle this discussion is for me to send over an eyas coops every year and you send me an eyas spar every year, for say, 10 years and then we can compare notes! OK? :D
Actually, I would love to fly a spar, I keep reading about how tenacious they are and would love to experience that. Maybe one of these days, some breeders over here will start breeding them. I have my breeders license, but I have no idea how to get a pair here. Anyone coming to the NAFA meet in November want to stick a pair of spars in the their luggage for me! LOL