Waiting on

[SkyGod]

hey guys i was just wondering how you teach your falcon to wait on:oops:

[Star]

Is this falcon as in longwings only or hawks as well?

[Giant Panda]

Is this falcon as in longwings only or hawks as well?

Eh?Longwings ARE Falcons!:rolleyes:

[Star]

I meant that falcons could have been used as a generic term for bird of prey, which would include hawks etc, or simply to mean longwings only.
Sorry, I hope this has clarified.

I have not heard of a falcon[longwing] waiting on but I know it is used for hawks. That is why I asked.

[Sophie]

i think the most effective method is the use of a kite or balloon

[Falconry Equipment International]

I meant that falcons could have been used as a generic term for bird of prey, which would include hawks etc, or simply to mean longwings only.
Sorry, I hope this has clarified.

I have not heard of a falcon[longwing] waiting on but I know it is used for hawks. That is why I asked.

Star I think you have things rather confused. If anything it is the other way around ie we talk about gamehawking but we use falcons? to me a falcon is actually a female peregrine I have never seen a hawk wait on as such only go on the spar:roll: HTh

[Falconry Equipment International]

hey guys i was just wondering how you teach your falcon to wait on:oops:

this is really easy basic stuff, read some chapters, better still read something like ray turners Gamehawk field and moor, the hard bit is once you have pitch, keeping it ( and beleive me this is NOT a frivolous post)

[Falconry Equipment International]

i think the most effective method is the use of a kite or balloon
Sophie
I have been kiting or ballooning with falcons for about 15 years and the one thing I can tell you is that it does not do is teach a hawk( ie longwing) to wait on . prodigeous serving either when the falcon is over you will encourage waiting on as is flushing when the falcon is wide ( so long as the flush goes away from the falcon.HTH

[Falconry Equipment International]

Eh?Longwings ARE Falcons!:rolleyes:

yup:yawinkle:

[Star]

Star I think you have things rather confused. If anything it is the other way around ie we talk about gamehawking but we use falcons? to me a falcon is actually a female peregrine I have never seen a hawk wait on as such only go on the spar:roll: HTh

It was just to clarify.
After all 'falconry' can mean hawking.
It depends how picky you're being about the vocab. :rolleyes:

[Finnish]

hey guys i was just wondering how you teach your falcon to wait on:oops:


Put as much game under the bird as possible....

[MattSpar]

I have not heard of a falcon[longwing] waiting on but I know it is used for hawks. That is why I asked.


Blimey, I never knew that.

You learn something new every day.

[Finnish]

Sophie
I have been kiting or ballooning with falcons for about 15 years and the one thing I can tell you is that it does not do is teach a hawk( ie longwing) to wait on . prodigeous serving either when the falcon is over you will encourage waiting on as is flushing when the falcon is wide ( so long as the flush goes away from the falcon.HTH


Agreed kiting will get your Falcon very fit but will not teach your bird to wait on unless it's getting served underneath the kite...

[Sean D]

:supz:Blimey, I never knew that.

You learn something new every day.

[Falconry Equipment International]

It was just to clarify.
After all 'falconry' can mean hawking.
It depends how picky you're being about the vocab. :rolleyes:

If you wish to be perdantic, tradition states that those practising falconry ( ie hunting with long wings can be game hawking, rook hawking, lark hawking etc etc and would use the term 'hawk or any bop they were flying ~ including a longwing) if you were flying a hawk( ie accipiter) you would be an austringer and still go hawking ( no sign of falconry) if you were spicifically flying a spar you would be a sparviter. there fore unfortunately your original post seems to confuse rather than help the thread? I am not being snotty here, just trying to help

[Falconry Equipment International]

Blimey, I never knew that.

You learn something new every day.

PMSL Matt you tinker:yawinkle:

[Falconry Equipment International]

Agreed kiting will get your Falcon very fit but will not teach your bird to wait on unless it's getting served underneath the kite...
That it lee:goodman:

[Hatchero]

lots of game works for me. judicious use of bags also can be useful(or easy quarry and slips). thermals, used carefully (not to excess) will get your bird to those stratosphere pitches that will teach them the value of very high pitches. it helps to fly peregrines since they do it pretty naturally. G/Ps seem to be pretty natural as well. gyrs and merlins can a bit more challenging, here again thermals help but good slips on challenging quarry is super important for these species since tail chasing is so much fun for them. in the case of teitas, their hybrids, bat falcons and eleanoras falcons the problem is more the opposite--how high is too high? no kind of training is needed for these species other than training the falconer to wait until the bird has aired it out and is ready for a flush. just my take on things.
Jim

[Finnish]

The thing is Jim we are not allowed to use baggies over here mate...

[Giant Panda]

yup:yawinkle:

Thanks for confirming that;-)
That's the trouble when the ill informed spout before thinking.:rolleyes:

[Jack]

I have not trained many falcons. A saker, cross trained a peregrine, a small merlin hybrid, and now my gyr/prairie. I have helped with training of many peregrines and a few other hybrids, belonging to friends. Tossing pigeons and small birds in order to induce wait on is way to haphazard for me. Depends too much on luck. I watched a fellow toss off between 75 and 100 pigeons over a few months trying to get his peregrine to figure it out. She never did. I have gone through too many baggies myself, and never achieved anything. The bird has to come back over you and then you serve another pigeon. The thing is, if the falcon never comes back over you are still at square 1. And even if it does, it might not do so again for a few dozen more pigeons or small birds.
Because of this pain in the ass method, not having steep hillsides and rushing thermals, along with lots of barbed wire and private properties surrounding the training fields, I decided that the kite was a much better proposition. I have actually trained several falcons to wait on within a week using a cheap kite. You do not have to take her up to the stratosphere either. You can take them up to exactly the spot you need them to be and by use of a baggy or even the lure you can teach wait on behaviors. Our ducks get here late and leave early, so we have to have all the duck season we can in order to have a decent bag at the end of the season. I have wasted most of a season trying to get a bird to wait on with no real luck at it. And it is luck. Some people are luckier than others, but that old method depends mostly on luck. There is nothing about it that can reproduced with any consistancy.
The use of large baits and lures on the kite line do not work well for what I do. I like to use small tidbits on the kite line as a lure for them to go up. And they will go all the way up there for a tiny little tidbit too. I learned this from a Ron Frye over in Virginia. Once I got the bird waiting on and anticipating a flush, I would wait her out each time and flush as she was climbing. I could end up getting her up to a pretty decent pitch for duck hawking.

Jack

[JFSeaman]

I meant that falcons could have been used as a generic term for bird of prey, which would include hawks etc, or simply to mean longwings only.
Sorry, I hope this has clarified.

I have not heard of a falcon[longwing] waiting on but I know it is used for hawks. That is why I asked.

Sorry to be pedantic but 'hawk' is the generic term for all longwings, short wings and broadwings. Falcon is specific to longwings.

Example: If you say "How did your falcon do today" to someone who hunts with a goshawk he or you will wind up very confused. But of you say "How did your hawk do today" to someone who flys a falcon he will know exactly what you are talking about.

As for waiting on. Kites or balloons are a method not the only method by a long shot as 100 years ago falconers were getting waiting on flights without a kite or balloon.

[JFSeaman]

The thing is Jim we are not allowed to use baggies over here mate...

Fly the pen. Of course we are not allowed pens per say.

[Jack]

Falconers have been doing it for centuries without the use of kites, but I can garantee you that they did not get them waiting on in a weeks time. Way too much luck is involved here, and I have just never had the patience to do it the luck way. Lots of ways to do anything, but only one best way of doing it.
I have trouble imagining baggies being illegal making a difference. I have not really felt good about using baggies myself, and have used my lure for training. I have a little lure that has some weight to it, and I have swung it up and out at a great distance having the falcon stoop it. It usually goes to ground before the falcon can take it, but this works the magic just the same. I trained a female Saker to wait on and never used a single pigeon on her. She was going up to about 200 feet for the tidbits, and when she would get up there and get the tidbit she would lose some altitude while she ate it, then she would return to see if there was any more meat on the line. Once she was satisfied that there was none left, she was free to stoop or whatever. So I would launch the baggie or I would throw the lure for her. After a few times of this she would go up in anticipation of the lure or baggy. All I had to do was take her hunting.
This all takes planning and preparation. It can not be haphazard or you will just make a mess of it. This is where most falconers are when they are against the kite or balloon. Just don't want to be fooling about with kites.

Jack

[Yoji]

Hello Jack,
Can I ask you something more about your kite setup?
I want to know:
- The size of tidbit.
- How do you attach the tidbit? Do you attach extra kyte line for the tidbit?
- Isn't it dangerous for the bird?
- Do you gradually raise the height of the tidbit?

Thanks in advance.

Yoji

[Jack]

When I start kiting, I will put it up about 700 to 800 feet of line. Not necessarily that high. I want the kite off to one side so the falcon does not actually associate it with what we are doing. It just holds up the far end of the line for me. I have a line of about 6 feet slip tied to the main line so that it can be slid up and down easily. On the end of it I have a short piece of tooth pick taped, and glue on. I stick the tidbits on it. You would be surprised at how small a tidbit they will fly hard to get. Birds are dumb. Anyway, I sit the block perch right down below the kite line and perch the falcon. I will slide the bait line up to about 30 feet and bait it. I will strike the braces and remove the hood, then pull the kite line down so that the tidbit is in her face. She jumps up and grabs it off and eats it. I then stick another piece on the toothpick and let it go up some. The falcon might have to circle and come in and grab it, then you pull it back down and stick anothe piece on and let it go on up more. When it gets to the 30 foot mark you can then start sliding it up more and more. In an afternoon of this you can feed the hawk it's ration and a bit more, and have her going up after it to around 100 feet. Our telephone poles are about 30 feet tall from the ground, and that is 3 and 1/3 poles straight up. I will let her rest a day and come back the next and start out at 100 feet and once she is steady going up after it I ease it up to about 200 feet. Not super high, but it is higher than most realize. I will then start thinking about using a launcher with a baggy or using my lure. When I am ready I will watch the falcon closely, and when she pulls the bait off and eats it she might drop down some, but she will go right back up to see if there is more. Once satisfied that there is no more, she will then look down at me. I wave my glove at her as a signal, and then fire the launcher or throw my lure as hard and as far as I can. this brings the falcon down in a stoop that ends in a big reward either on a kill or the lure.
I do this a couple or 3 times and then simply take the bird hunting. She will not look for the kite as it is not part of what we do in her mind, and she will mount, looking for the possible tidbit and in anticipation of either a flush or the lure. This can be done in about a week if you are constant, consistant, and things work well. I use segments of chicken neck, cut between the vertibrae. It sticks onto the toothpick and holds well.
Your falcon has to be sharp and hungry if this is to work. This is why I would rest them every other day. I do not feed on the off day.

Jack

[OutHawkn]

I meant that falcons could have been used as a generic term for bird of prey, which would include hawks etc, or simply to mean longwings only.
Sorry, I hope this has clarified.

I have not heard of a falcon[longwing] waiting on but I know it is used for hawks. That is why I asked.

Its the other way around.

Kite training; http://members.aol.com/hawking007/kite1.html

[Yoji]

Hello Jack,
Thanks a lot for your detailed explanations.
I think it's a very nice technique.

Yoji

[Tim Laycock]

I am not being snotty here, just trying to help

You are certainly not being snotty Julian :cool:

For me falconry terminology and its correct use only serves to keep the flavour of our sport as rich as it should be but so seldom is.

[Goose]

For kite info check out

www.deltas.freeserve.co.uk (http://www.deltas.freeserve.co.uk)

Its Dan Leigh's web site. Check out the falconry section.

[Finnish]

Fly the pen. Of course we are not allowed pens per say.



http://www.falconryforum.co.uk/images/smilies/confused.gifhttp://www.falconryforum.co.uk/images/smilies/confused.gifhttp://www.falconryforum.co.uk/images/smilies/confused.gif

[Judd Casper]

hey guys i was just wondering how you teach your falcon to wait on:oops:keep showing the falcon game....it will work the rest out for its self,there are no shortcuts.

Sam

[Jack]

Actually, kiting is not really a short cut. It is a more direct route. I have tried to get a falcon to wait on, and was not really lucky enough that the falcon wanted to cooperate with me. I just had to take that into my own hands and cut out the luck aspect of it all.
I have checked out all the kiting sites, and for teaching a falcon to wait on they have nothing. They like to run a lure large bait up the kite line, and I can tell you that as long as there is a lure or large chunk of meat on the lure line, or even a tidbit for that matter, the hawk is simply not going to pull off of it to stoop a lure or baggy. And the hawk will grab it and ride it all the way to the ground. I can not see what this does in the way of training a falcon to wait on. That is why the tidbit method came to be. The whole idea for me is to get the falcon into the exact location in the sky that it should be in for what I have planned for her.

Jack

[Freddie1]

i think the most effective method is the use of a kite or balloon

Sorry but that is just a bad bit of advise and should be taken of this thread.
Steve

[Sokoly]

Sorry but that is just a bad bit of advise and should be taken of this thread.
Steve

I agree, kite and baloon are not the only techniques to take the falcon high in the air. The use of thermals should be your first choise if talking about chamber bred falcons. It might be tricky at the begining, but later on it's easier then the baloon or kite. Many people who I know, had problems of falcons refusing to fly if the baloon or kite is not high aloft.They seem to get wedded to the kite somehow.
If talking about wild hacked falcons or passagers, you will not need it, they know what to do....
Sokoly

[Hawkmaster]

Thermals are not an option for most of the time in flat cold UK areas

[Illustrator]

Are there any vids on u tube for this, i've never heard of this, my experience with kite flying is frantically running with something that never flies :lol:

[OutHawkn]

Sorry but that is just a bad bit of advise and should be taken of this thread.
Steve


I use a kite and have never had a problem. I've trained 10-12 falcons with it and never experienced any bird becoming wed to the kite. It is more junk in the field but if you want to get a falcon to go up fast the kite works. It doesnt however teach a falcon to wait on. It can also be used in between dry spells(no game) to exercise a falcon, it builds muscle fast. And lastly if you should ever lose a kite trained falcon, put your kite in the air and if the falcon is ANYWHERE in the vicinity they are drawn to it like a magnet.
The kite isnt the last word in teaching a falcon the advantage of height. But it is a very good tool.

[Sokoly]

Ofcourse it has some positive side's.

[Jack]

Bill, to the contrary, the kite is the easiest way to teach a falcon to wait on. Using the method I described earlier it can be done far quicker than tossing pigeons at a falcon that is just tooling about in the sky. In fact, It is the only real useful thing a kite can be used for. You can get them going up to a big lure to get them flying high, but they may not continue that once the large lure or bait is dispensed with. To get them into the exact position you want, like when tossing pigeons, you can use smaller baits that can be taken and eaten quickly, leaving the falcon to look for further reward. You toss pigeons to get them coming back at a pitch and hopefully over you for another toss, which is supposed to put them right where they need to be. You can use the kite to get the falcon in that exact same spot each and every time you want her there. Then you serve the baggie that is expected to be caught. Makes it so simple. But yes indeed, you can teach a falcon to wait on very quickly and very easily with a kite or a balloon.

Jack

[OutHawkn]

Bill, to the contrary, the kite is the easiest way to teach a falcon to wait on. Using the method I described earlier it can be done far quicker than tossing pigeons at a falcon that is just tooling about in the sky. In fact, It is the only real useful thing a kite can be used for. You can get them going up to a big lure to get them flying high, but they may not continue that once the large lure or bait is dispensed with. To get them into the exact position you want, like when tossing pigeons, you can use smaller baits that can be taken and eaten quickly, leaving the falcon to look for further reward. You toss pigeons to get them coming back at a pitch and hopefully over you for another toss, which is supposed to put them right where they need to be. You can use the kite to get the falcon in that exact same spot each and every time you want her there. Then you serve the baggie that is expected to be caught. Makes it so simple. But yes indeed, you can teach a falcon to wait on very quickly and very easily with a kite or a balloon.

Jack


Jack, I'd sure like to see that. Falcons dont just hang around the kite for something to do.They hang around waiting to be served. If you dont serve something they wont stay there. So the kite teaches them to go up but it doesnt teach them to wait there,not without the anticipation of game being flushed.

[SharpTail]

Falconers have been doing it for centuries without the use of kites, but I can garantee you that they did not get them waiting on in a weeks time. Way too much luck is involved here, and I have just never had the patience to do it the luck way. Lots of ways to do anything, but only one best way of doing it.
I have trouble imagining baggies being illegal making a difference. I have not really felt good about using baggies myself, and have used my lure for training. I have a little lure that has some weight to it, and I have swung it up and out at a great distance having the falcon stoop it. It usually goes to ground before the falcon can take it, but this works the magic just the same. I trained a female Saker to wait on and never used a single pigeon on her. She was going up to about 200 feet for the tidbits, and when she would get up there and get the tidbit she would lose some altitude while she ate it, then she would return to see if there was any more meat on the line. Once she was satisfied that there was none left, she was free to stoop or whatever. So I would launch the baggie or I would throw the lure for her. After a few times of this she would go up in anticipation of the lure or baggy. All I had to do was take her hunting.
This all takes planning and preparation. It can not be haphazard or you will just make a mess of it. This is where most falconers are when they are against the kite or balloon. Just don't want to be fooling about with kites.

Jack
Well Jack, If it is just luck, some of us are 'just lucky', bird, after bird, after bird.

[Jack]

Bill, you have not been reading any of my posts have you? No, you don't actually use the kite for anything except to hold the far end of the line. It is way the hell up there and off to one side and is not part of what you are doing. I use tidbits to get the falcon to go up to get them. Once eaten, and usually right there where they pull them from the end of the line, the falcon is in position for me to launch a baggy. How hard is that? I realize that it has been done the hard way for centuries, but if you can do it with the kite in about a week, why not? What could you possibly have against speed and effeciency? You are right. A lot of people have gotten lucky. They toss a pigeon and the falcon chases it off. Then it comes back looking for another, supposedly. And then you toss another pigeon that it can catch. I have seen up to 75 pigeons tossed before the falcon even came close to coming back overhead. Knee high would be closer. No, I have no time for that as long as I can find a cheap kite. I have done it 3 times in a row with absolute success, and am just about to do it a 4th time. It is something that is repeatable. And I didn't come up with this either. I learned it from another well known falconer that says it has been in use to make falcons wait on for as long as kites have been used.

Jack

[OutHawkn]

Bill, you have not been reading any of my posts have you? No, you don't actually use the kite for anything except to hold the far end of the line. It is way the hell up there and off to one side and is not part of what you are doing. I use tidbits to get the falcon to go up to get them. Once eaten, and usually right there where they pull them from the end of the line, the falcon is in position for me to launch a baggy. How hard is that? I realize that it has been done the hard way for centuries, but if you can do it with the kite in about a week, why not? What could you possibly have against speed and effeciency? You are right. A lot of people have gotten lucky. They toss a pigeon and the falcon chases it off. Then it comes back looking for another, supposedly. And then you toss another pigeon that it can catch. I have seen up to 75 pigeons tossed before the falcon even came close to coming back overhead. Knee high would be closer. No, I have no time for that as long as I can find a cheap kite. I have done it 3 times in a row with absolute success, and am just about to do it a 4th time. It is something that is repeatable. And I didn't come up with this either. I learned it from another well known falconer that says it has been in use to make falcons wait on for as long as kites have been used.

Jack


Jack, I think we're on the same page here. We're just sayin it differently.

[Hawkmaster]

I have not trained many falcons. A saker, cross trained a peregrine, a small merlin hybrid, and now my gyr/prairie. I have helped with training of many peregrines and a few other hybrids, belonging to friends. Tossing pigeons and small birds in order to induce wait on is way to haphazard for me. Depends too much on luck. I watched a fellow toss off between 75 and 100 pigeons over a few months trying to get his peregrine to figure it out. She never did. I have gone through too many baggies myself, and never achieved anything. The bird has to come back over you and then you serve another pigeon. The thing is, if the falcon never comes back over you are still at square 1. And even if it does, it might not do so again for a few dozen more pigeons or small birds.
Because of this pain in the ass method, not having steep hillsides and rushing thermals, along with lots of barbed wire and private properties surrounding the training fields, I decided that the kite was a much better proposition. I have actually trained several falcons to wait on within a week using a cheap kite. You do not have to take her up to the stratosphere either. You can take them up to exactly the spot you need them to be and by use of a baggy or even the lure you can teach wait on behaviors. Our ducks get here late and leave early, so we have to have all the duck season we can in order to have a decent bag at the end of the season. I have wasted most of a season trying to get a bird to wait on with no real luck at it. And it is luck. Some people are luckier than others, but that old method depends mostly on luck. There is nothing about it that can reproduced with any consistancy.
The use of large baits and lures on the kite line do not work well for what I do. I like to use small tidbits on the kite line as a lure for them to go up. And they will go all the way up there for a tiny little tidbit too. I learned this from a Ron Frye over in Virginia. Once I got the bird waiting on and anticipating a flush, I would wait her out each time and flush as she was climbing. I could end up getting her up to a pretty decent pitch for duck hawking.

JackHi Jack,

What methd of attachment do you use with the tidbits?:cool:

[Jack]

Because the main focus here is just to get the falcon into position for a flush or launch of a baggie, you want something that will not tie the bird up. A large bait or lure will keep the bird busy after it gets it and the bird usually has to ride it all the way down. The problem with that is that the falcon will not hardly break off and stoop at a flushed baggie. They have a sure meal in foot and refuse to let it go. In order to get them to eat it and become free to do something else you have to make it small and easy to take. For this I use about 6 feet of line that is tied to the main kite line in a way that I can slide it up and down the line for different altitudes. And so that it is easy to remove, I ties and glue half a toothpick on the end of that length of string. The end is blunted so that it is not sharp or pointed so that it will not punch a hole in her feet. I use firm meat like segments of chicken necks because the toothpick will go in and they stay on. All the falcon has to do is reach and grab it and it slides right off into her foot. She can just pop it into her mouth and eat it right there if it is not too big. Every time they will immediately go back and look at it to see if there is more. Once they see that there isn't they are then free to stoop at a flushed baggie. After I have done this only a few times, the falcon would mount up in anticipation of the flush rather than for the tidbits. I suppose that she looks for them as she is flying up there, but not seeing them she will wait on over you in anticipation of another gift from you. Once that occurs you are ready to head out to the field and get a good dog point or a pond full of wild ducks. On the occasion that I trained a female Saker this way, the first duck that was flushed under her fell victim.
It is not very sofisticated as techniques go, but it is very effective in teaching a young falcon to wait on. The whole idea is to get the falcon to pass over within a certain air space so that you can then serve her a baggie or the lure. The hope is that she will realize the benefit of this and do it again and again. But falcons are not real smart, and they may take several times of this to learn or even notice a pattern. And getting them to enter this air space several times in a row may prove to be extremely difficult. So with the use of the kite and this simple system of tidbitting you can take her there over and over at your convenience. You can put the kite up and know exactly where the bird will be when it takes the tidbit off the line, and then have the launcher stationed just down wind of that. But, you have to have all this worked out and set up right if you are going to make it work. You can't just go at it in a haphazard manner. Step A, B, and C.

Jack

[OutHawkn]

for the most part I woud agree, but I dont use a lure ,only bait,the back half of a quail to be exact. Once the falcon is climbing steadily to the bait, just remove it. The falcon will climb as usual. While the falcon is STILL climbing to where it expects the bait to be I serve it. I've never seen a falcon hesitate to stoop. And because I always serve the falcon while still climbing it teaches the falcon that climbing is a good thing. Because I have removed the bait its important that the falcon always be shown game. Then I remove the kite and continue training as usual.

[Hawkmaster]

Thanks for that Jack. Your initial train from low altitudes is that done with a normal sized lure or do you just use the smal tidbits method?

[Jack]

I use the tidbit from start to finish. I only take them up to about 200 feet, which is pretty high really, and once the falcon has taken the bait and is no longer engaged I will flush the baggie. I can place the launcher in exactly the positon I need it in by using this method, and as the falcon will go back to check for more she places herself in the exact spot I want her in. I always figured a larger bait was not really necessary since they will climb up there for a tiny tidbit. The tidbit will not take away the edge and the birds can be flown several times each outing and you can do it every day. It only takes about a week and I simply leave the kite in the truck. The trainee does not know that the kite is part of the deal. It is way off to one side and very high. The bait is nowhere near it. The falcons seem to just look at it and determine it is no threat and forget about it.
Now, Like Bill, I will then let the falcon climb as it is waiting and only flush while she is actively climbing. This will require one to really watch closely and wait the falcon out. She might get antsy early on and not wait on for long at all before moving off, so you have to watch for any sign that this is about to occur. If you think it is you need to flush immediately. This way, every time the falcon thinks about raking away she will think that any time now you are going to flush, so stay longer each time. You can do this while actively hunting ducks or grouse or whatever. They will eventually start feeling confident and start working the pitch up higher.
I have a theory about duck hawking though. When you are hawking over a huge area of open land the falcons have a tendency to really go up. When in more inclosed country and over small stock tanks, or ponds if you will, they do not seem to be as concerned with pitch. About 600 feet is the pitch where most ducks will attempt to flush off a pond with the falcon up there. Any lower and you have to work at it some. Higher and they seem to have a defense all worked out by the time the falcon gets to them. Mostly like going back to the water.
I am starting work on a little tiercel that I have had a problem with wanting to perch and watch me. I think he is simply wanting the lure or a tossed baggy. I have wasted many good slips on him this season, but at least I do have plenty of water and ducks this year to waste on him. I just put all my kite equipment in my truck and am now cutting his weight to make him extra sharp so that I can use the kite to good effect. The bird has to be hungry and sharp enough to respond or you make no headway. I am hoping that I can get him waiting on for me in no more than a week. I may be asking way to much of this particular tiercel though. We will see.

Jack

[Brian Sullivan]

I never did like flying kites unless it was by bat kite that would do crazy loops. I have tried the hot air balloon rides but that is about as boring as it gets it is kind of like fishing when the fish are not biting.

Oh waiting on is that what you guys are talking about? :confused: Just read some old books and you will find out how they have been doing it for thousands of years. I can supply you a whole list of old and some new books if you would like? It is quite simple once try it a lot like learning how to walk and talk. :grin:

[Hawkmaster]

Go ahead Brian there are many people here that would want to know the list you are talking about?:wink:

[Sokoly]

Brian let me remind you that thousand of years ago people were using passagers and haggards not chamber bred falcons that don't know whats the point of going up in the sky.
Maybe the methods you are mentioning are for wild birds?
Sokoly

[BarbaryHawking06]

Brian let me remind you that thousand of years ago people were using passagers and haggards not chamber bred falcons that don't know whats the point of going up in the sky.
Maybe the methods you are mentioning are for wild birds?
Sokoly

you are wrong in this case, if you had read "de arte venandi cum avibus" by Frederick II. you would know that at that times, too they used eyasses, wether hand or creche reared or imprinted is all written in detail, flown with or without hack. And a non hacked eyass is no different to a captive reared bird. They were doing waiting on flights at ducks, (no pointing dogs bred, yet!) and though they are not giving details about the exact height the birds achieve he writes, the higher the better, and that is probably better said than the hundreds of falcons nowadays that all fly at a 1000ft or more and while they do so you can still read their name tags without binoculars.:lol:

[OutHawkn]

I never did like flying kites unless it was by bat kite that would do crazy loops. I have tried the hot air balloon rides but that is about as boring as it gets it is kind of like fishing when the fish are not biting.

Oh waiting on is that what you guys are talking about? :confused: Just read some old books and you will find out how they have been doing it for thousands of years. I can supply you a whole list of old and some new books if you would like? It is quite simple once try it a lot like learning how to walk and talk. :grin:

I've used pigeons for many years and have never seen it fail. However at least im my experience using a kite speeds things up (except perhaps for one silly bird)! I am resistant to change usually, I like what is tried and true, but I have to say the kite really speeds up the learning curve for teaching height.IMO

[JanMan]

Brian let me remind you that thousand of years ago people were using passagers and haggards not chamber bred falcons that don't know whats the point of going up in the sky.
Maybe the methods you are mentioning are for wild birds?
Sokoly

I have not, as yet, found 'waiting on' to be a problem to establish with a falcon. All I do, even on exercise only days or when I was giving demo's., is release the falcon as soon as I reach the flying ground, and go walkabout. I have always found the falcon will go to her pitch depending on the weather conditions and do the buisness if you kick up a partridge or show her the lure. Admittedly most of my flying was with passage and haggard birds but have not noticed a difference with a parent reared and an imprinted Gyr/Saker in recent years, but these don't go as high.

[Sokoly]

you are wrong in this case, if you had read "de arte venandi cum avibus" by Frederick II. you would know that at that times, too they used eyasses, wether hand or creche reared or imprinted is all written in detail, flown with or without hack. And a non hacked eyass is no different to a captive reared bird. They were doing waiting on flights at ducks, (no pointing dogs bred, yet!) and though they are not giving details about the exact height the birds achieve he writes, the higher the better, and that is probably better said than the hundreds of falcons nowadays that all fly at a 1000ft or more and while they do so you can still read their name tags without binoculars.:lol:


:-) I have red the book but I also know for sure that in Valkenwort in nowadays Holland they used to trap wild passagers and Haggards for purposes of falconry. Just like Arabs still do. But the difference is sakers are not trained to wait on.
Waiting on is probably something that comes natural to the Peregrines, and sooner or later they learn it. The main point in my opinion is that we should use the thermals and train the falcons to learn positioning first , after few attempts from a low pitch they learn that if they go higher they will have more succes. Ofcourse the falconer should take care that the rewards are given when the falcon makes a better pitch not just at anytime.
And also I don't recall that I noticed the use of kites in "De Arte venandi cum Avibus". So if they used eyasses they must have taught them waitting on and taking a higher pitch in some other way....

Sokoly

[MitchellBrad]

Oh waiting on is that what you guys are talking about? :confused: Just read some old books and you will find out how they have been doing it for thousands of years. I can supply you a whole list of old and some new books if you would like? It is quite simple once try it a lot like learning how to walk and talk. :grin:

And Jeff

"Well Jack, If it is just luck, some of us are 'just lucky', bird, after bird, after bird."

Two good US falconers posted the above. My comments are:
I get a kick after reading a lot of what people write about waiting on. I also think there are a lot of people who have misguided agenda's. "Do it my way and I'll set you free!" I read Brian's post and had to agree. In fact I couldn't agree more with him and Jeff. An old friend of mine who used to fly very nice peregrines used to say, "Kites and Balloons are for bafoons". Why? Because he didn't feel they taught the birds much. Going up is only half the equation, what the bird does on the way down is the other half. It takes the experienced falconer who observes what the bird does on the way down to make an educated judgement concerning what is going on. A good falcon should be able to fly by a quarry and set it spinning on the ground while the falconer sits there wondering what happened. Kites sure as Hell don't teach that. But, you people do what you think is right and pray you get the equation right. If your hawking ducks it really doesn't matter cause any falcon should be able to kill those things. And who is to say about postioning? If your hawking ducks positioning really doesn't mean squat, it sure does with grouse. I'll bet Brian and Jeff will back that up!!! Ducks are about as easy as catching rabbits with redtails. Falcons should be well rounded. They should be able to stoop then deliver a killing blow with little or no injury to themselves.
http://www.falconryforum.co.uk/images/misc/progress.gif

[Jack]

How many times have I heard this? Mostly by people that do not hawk ducks I would guess. Ducks are no easier than any other quarry that we fly with falcons in this country. They might be easier to find and set up on, but they are in no way easy for a falcon to take. I have seen a few easy flights, but I have seen many more that were impossible. Ducks are not defenseless at all. Speed that is greater than that of the average falcon, and they know all there is to making fools of both falcon and falconer. No, duck hawking is not easy at all. And as for the old time falconers who don't believe in the kite. I think it is just stuborness on their part and they just don't like gadgets. Computers, Things like that either. I don't care who the guy might be, he still can not train a falcon to mount and wait for a flush inside a week by tossing pigeons. I am sorry. Never be done. And as for the falcon learning all the fancy stuff coming down, they learn that on their own while practicing their trade. You can not teach this by any means. No one can. There ain't no hocus pocus when it comes to falconry.

Jack

[Bird_Dog]

I wish I could get my tiercel gyr x peregrine to fly decently when it's 80 degrees and the wind is blowing 30 mph. That's the kind of weather we've had for the whole season so far..... arrrrg! The ******* keeps catching ducks, tho.

Bird_Dog

[OutHawkn]

I wish I could get my tiercel gyr x peregrine to fly decently when it's 80 degrees and the wind is blowing 30 mph. That's the kind of weather we've had for the whole season so far..... arrrrg! The ******* keeps catching ducks, tho.

Bird_Dog

What is it exactly that you want him to do? 30 mph shouldnt be nuthin, my little tiercel anatum will fly great in that breeze. Goes up faster than you can ,**** man he's going out of site:supz:

[BarbaryHawking06]

How many times have I heard this? Mostly by people that do not hawk ducks I would guess. Ducks are no easier than any other quarry that we fly with falcons in this country. They might be easier to find and set up on, but they are in no way easy for a falcon to take. I have seen a few easy flights, but I have seen many more that were impossible. Ducks are not defenseless at all. Speed that is greater than that of the average falcon, and they know all there is to making fools of both falcon and falconer. No, duck hawking is not easy at all. And as for the old time falconers who don't believe in the kite. I think it is just stuborness on their part and they just don't like gadgets. Computers, Things like that either. I don't care who the guy might be, he still can not train a falcon to mount and wait for a flush inside a week by tossing pigeons. I am sorry. Never be done. And as for the falcon learning all the fancy stuff coming down, they learn that on their own while practicing their trade. You can not teach this by any means. No one can. There ain't no hocus pocus when it comes to falconry.

Jack

Hi Jack,
I practice falconry with longwings out of waiting on for 4 years now so I'm rather a newbie. I have never ever used the kite, but I won't disregard it, I think it is a valuable tool to get the bird fit in a short space of time and will use it accordingly in the future to get my birds fit after the moult. But I don't see how it will teach the bird to wait on at great heights. You mention that guys around you have thrown dozens of pigeons and not taught the falcon height at all, well that is the falconers fault not of the method itself. Around here there are some falconers training with pigeons, too. Their falcons never fly higher than a couple of hundred feet. Asked what they do with their pigeons, where they train how the pigeons are trained, the usual answer is: "The pigeons are flying loose all day!" as any pigeon fancier will know, pigeons will not fly the whole day building up fitness, one would have to road train them for that. That is the first part, the next was their training area, small with lot of cover for the pigeons to hide, where there were most often killed by the falcons, thus inclining them to tailchase the pigeons everywhere.
The next most important part was that they didn't know WHEN to throw the pigeons. The falcon had just set her wings and bam came the pigeon, the falcon had lowered her pitch for a better view into the bag, bam came the pigeons :rolleyes: it is just so basic. My personal height training is done by thermals only, that's why I prefer barbaries as where I live thermals are gone by september and you need a bird being hard penned early.
My current tiercel barbary flies around a realistic 1000ft most days and is pretty deadly on partridge. Of course he has days, too when he flies **** and doesn't catch anything in good setups.
This is just my personal view some will agree some won't but it works for me.

[OutHawkn]

I have not, as yet, found 'waiting on' to be a problem to establish with a falcon. All I do, even on exercise only days or when I was giving demo's., is release the falcon as soon as I reach the flying ground, and go walkabout. I have always found the falcon will go to her pitch depending on the weather conditions and do the buisness if you kick up a partridge or show her the lure. Admittedly most of my flying was with passage and haggard birds but have not noticed a difference with a parent reared and an imprinted Gyr/Saker in recent years, but these don't go as high.

Teaching a falcon to wait on isnt difficult at all using pigeons. Folks have done it for years. a kite simply speeds up teaching the falcon to gain height. After that its back to training as usual. I'm sure some folks on here can teach a falcon to climb to 1000 feet or more in 2-3 weeks. but I'd sure to see'em do it.

Also I dont thnk you guys have your falcons attain the pitch we do here in the US?? From what I've read about 400 feet or so over there? Over so here west of the Mississippi river the sky is the limit.

[JanMan]

Teaching a falcon to wait on isnt difficult at all using pigeons. Folks have done it for years. a kite simply speeds up teaching the falcon to gain height. After that its back to training as usual. I'm sure some folks on here can teach a falcon to climb to 1000 feet or more in 2-3 weeks. but I'd sure to see'em do it.

Also I dont thnk you guys have your falcons attain the pitch we do here in the US?? From what I've read about 400 feet or so over there? Over so here west of the Mississippi river the sky is the limit.

Bill, we are not able to use bagged pigeons in this country, in fact I have been flying hawks for nearly 50 years and wouldn't know where to start with bagged pigeons, and yet have had no trouble with my falcons reaching a 'pitch' at which they are able to catch stuff at an acceptable 'hit rate'. You suggest that our UK falcons reach an inferior hight at which to 'wait on', a mere 400ft. I would say that 400ft is a good height for a falcon's 'pitch'. At this height, everything is under control, ie. you, the dog and the falcon. At 1,000ft the smaller falcons are more difficult to see/follow and there is further for them to travel to make contact therefore loss of control. But there again I expect American falcons travel at 500+ mph so make up for it!:yawinkle: If I am a typical example of a UK person flying hawks, I would say how high is high, because I have flown Eagles, Buzzards and falcons that go out of sight so I don't know how high that is. It's a meaningless working 'pitch' for any of them but great for exercise and a bit of 'joi de vivre', unless you want them to go off 'self hunting'.

Tony

[Hawkmaster]

For most people benefit our UK fields are smaller than most the open spaces in the USA and other countries.

For the benefit of other USA and international countries, why not explain your use of bagged pigeons to make your falcon gain high picthes?

BUT USE THIS NEW THREAD PLEASE:
http://www.falconryforum.co.uk/showthread.php?p=721951#post721951:supz:

[MattSpar]

Bill, we are not able to use bagged pigeons in this country, in fact I have been flying hawks for nearly 50 years and wouldn't know where to start with bagged pigeons, and yet have had no trouble with my falcons reaching a 'pitch' at which they are able to catch stuff at an acceptable 'hit rate'. You suggest that our UK falcons reach an inferior hight at which to 'wait on', a mere 400ft. I would say that 400ft is a good height for a falcon's 'pitch'. At this height, everything is under control, ie. you, the dog and the falcon. At 1,000ft the smaller falcons are more difficult to see/follow and there is further for them to travel to make contact therefore loss of control. But there again I expect American falcons travel at 500+ mph so make up for it!:yawinkle: If I am a typical example of a UK person flying hawks, I would say how high is high, because I have flown Eagles, Buzzards and falcons that go out of sight so I don't know how high that is. It's a meaningless working 'pitch' for any of them but great for exercise and a bit of 'joi de vivre', unless you want them to go off 'self hunting'.

Tony

I once tracked a tiercel of mine with the telemetry as he cruised round overhead. The receiver told me he was above me for some time but, even though the sky was cloudless, I didn't get the slightest glimpse of him so he was, to say the least, pretty far up.
I flushed a small covey of grey partridge right in the centre of a 150 acre field of stubble with a long way to go to a distant hawthorn hedge. The tiercel eventually appeared in a stoop one dreams about, coming down like a barrage shell, but by then the partridges were all in the hedge bottom. He'd been much too high up.

An "inferior" pitch would have been much more practical, if less dramatic.

This same tiercel once killed a cock pheasant in the stoop. This time he was at a "mere" 300ft or so.

[OutFlying]

I'm not a longwinger :lol: but understand speed and distance and know if a falcon is too high in enclosed country in the Uk the quarry would be in a hedge or cover " drinking earl grey" whilst the falcon was still coming down ;)


Jim.

[Sokoly]

Teaching a falcon to wait on isnt difficult at all using pigeons. Folks have done it for years. a kite simply speeds up teaching the falcon to gain height. After that its back to training as usual. I'm sure some folks on here can teach a falcon to climb to 1000 feet or more in 2-3 weeks. but I'd sure to see'em do it.

Also I dont thnk you guys have your falcons attain the pitch we do here in the US?? From what I've read about 400 feet or so over there? Over so here west of the Mississippi river the sky is the limit.

If I let my falcons reach the pitch of 1000 feet, they will simply never reach their quarry in time. The hight of the pitch is simply connected to the field you fly on. If you have small broken fields with brushes and hedgerows, you will need that 400 feet pitch, in order to catch some quarry. Even your falcon will learn not to take that high pitch if she is to catch enything.
The hight of a pitch is in close corelation to the fields you fly.I can imagine those acers of wheat or corn in the U.S.A....but again it makes american falconers use the telemetry more often.
Sokoly

[OutHawkn]

You suggest that our UK falcons reach an inferior hight

Tony

Tony, Mattspar,outflying, soloky

I didnt mean for it sound like it was "inferior" at all. My appologies!:oops:

From reading on the IFF I have just gathered that at least most of you guy's have smaller fields to hunt in. Therefor you dont need a 1000 foot pitch, a 400-500 foot pitch puts more game in the bag. And i agree that is more than enough to do the job. Its just that over here we have the luxury of space. Or at least some of us do. I'm more limited than some. But even at that I can let my falcon take a pitch of 1000 feet and still have it stay in the county. Is it more deadly that yours, probably not. Its just that the higher they are the longer i get to watch a stoop! And for me at least I dont need the game so its all about watching falcons fall from outerspace!!:supz:

[FalconerDillon]

How many times have I heard this? Mostly by people that do not hawk ducks I would guess. Ducks are no easier than any other quarry that we fly with falcons in this country. They might be easier to find and set up on, but they are in no way easy for a falcon to take. I have seen a few easy flights, but I have seen many more that were impossible. Ducks are not defenseless at all. Speed that is greater than that of the average falcon, and they know all there is to making fools of both falcon and falconer. No, duck hawking is not easy at all.

Jack

Jack,

Obviously you don't get out of Texas much. You can catch ducks with a falcon waiting on out of position at 150'. Grouse (with the possible exception of early season sage grouse) need a good pitch and great position. Sometimes I read your posts and think you purposely post outlandish and absurd opinions just to get falconers riled up.

And as for the old time falconers who don't believe in the kite. I think it is just stuborness on their part and they just don't like gadgets. Computers, Things like that either. I don't care who the guy might be, he still can not train a falcon to mount and wait for a flush inside a week by tossing pigeons. I am sorry. Never be done. And as for the falcon learning all the fancy stuff coming down, they learn that on their own while practicing their trade. You can not teach this by any means. No one can. There ain't no hocus pocus when it comes to falconry

Jack

You know Jack, for some of us falconry isn't about the end product as much as it is about the path you take to get there. Maybe the reason that some hunters use a falcon instead of a shotgun is part of the reason some falconers don't use the kite... the kite is more efficient, I won't argue with you there, just as the shotgun is more efficient than a falcon. I'm in no hurry to train a May/June hatch eyas to wait on in a week with the kite when duck season doesn't start in many places until the end of October or November.

Dillon

[Hatchero]

for what it is worth, not everyone in the US use balloons, kites, pigeons or even voodoo to get birds waiting on high. i have not thrown or even possesed a pigeon for at least 25 years or more and find no problem getting falcons to wait on well in spite of this. for me, nothing works like challenging quarry and good air. i would agree with some things i have seen here about how pitch needs to be a relative thing--relative to quarry and conditions. if you have small fields and fast quarry a high pitch is not going to work--daa. on the other hand big pond and 500 foot pitch is not going to work, a peregrine and a two thousand foot pitch might. today a friend of mine and i were out flying sage grouse. there was about 8" of fresh snow and cold with slight breeze perfect conditions. my friend flew his G/P tiercel hybrid, this bird is very experienced and is top notch. the bird took a huge pitch and waited on up wind. the grouse flushed a little wild just as the bird turned away. a fantastic stoop ended up with the grouse flying out from under the hybrid--i have seen this many many times before. he came within 5 feet of the grouse's tail and then they climbed into the sky and the grouse flew away to the next time zone. the gyrkins with same pitch and quarry will end up pile driving the grouse--pitch is relative. for ducks, no pitch is too high, for uplands that go to cover pitch needs to be related to cover and quarry (cover needs to be further for sharptails than for huns). for sage grouse, cover is not much of a consideration it is more about wind and the type of falcons that is being flown . it is easier to catch a grouse from two hundred feet than from two thousand feet but what would you rather see?
Jim

[OutHawkn]

for what it is worth, not everyone in the US use balloons, kites, pigeons or even voodoo to get birds waiting on high. i have not thrown or even possesed a pigeon for at least 25 years or more and find no problem getting falcons to wait on well in spite of this. for me, nothing works like challenging quarry and good air. i would agree with some things i have seen here about how pitch needs to be a relative thing--relative to quarry and conditions. if you have small fields and fast quarry a high pitch is not going to work--daa. on the other hand big pond and 500 foot pitch is not going to work, a peregrine and a two thousand foot pitch might. today a friend of mine and i were out flying sage grouse. there was about 8" of fresh snow and cold with slight breeze perfect conditions. my friend flew his G/P tiercel hybrid, this bird is very experienced and is top notch. the bird took a huge pitch and waited on up wind. the grouse flushed a little wild just as the bird turned away. a fantastic stoop ended up with the grouse flying out from under the hybrid--i have seen this many many times before. he came within 5 feet of the grouse's tail and then they climbed into the sky and the grouse flew away to the next time zone. the gyrkins with same pitch and quarry will end up pile driving the grouse--pitch is relative. for ducks, no pitch is too high, for uplands that go to cover pitch needs to be related to cover and quarry (cover needs to be further for sharptails than for huns). for sage grouse, cover is not much of a consideration it is more about wind and the type of falcons that is being flown . it is easier to catch a grouse from two hundred feet than from two thousand feet but what would you rather see?
Jim


Jim,, thats all true but you live out in God's country where game is more plentiful to come by, there are times if it werent for my pigeons I'd see no game at all!!:supz:

[Hatchero]

Jim,, thats all true but you live out in God's country where game is more plentiful to come by, there are times if it werent for my pigeons I'd see no game at all!!:supz:

i don't know about god's country, it seemed a lot more like the land of the snow queen today. we go through dry spells just like everyone else. i tend to use bagged ducks with some bagged huns and pheasants thrown in for a change up--there are times when that is what you have to do but these do not really help pitch much. when i say throw i should say i use a radio controlled launcher so the bird never know where it is coming from.
Jim

[OutHawkn]

i don't know about god's country, it seemed a lot more like the land of the snow queen today. we go through dry spells just like everyone else. i tend to use bagged ducks with some bagged huns and pheasants thrown in for a change up--there are times when that is what you have to do but these do not really help pitch much. when i say throw i should say i use a radio controlled launcher so the bird never know where it is coming from.
Jim

I used to go to Idaho a couple times of year, Nice place, your a lucky Man.:supz:

[Hatchero]

I used to go to Idaho a couple times of year, Nice place, your a lucky Man.:supz:

i get to Minnesota a few times a year (my patent attorneys are located in Minneapolis) it looks like there could be some good hawking around there but i have no idea what sort of quarry is there. looks like good country to me though.

[Brian Sullivan]

There is many ways to get a falcon to fly high. One big one is genetics. Like horses, dogs and other well bred animals some are bred to run. Well, Falcons are the same because some just like to fly. If you only want a bird to take a high pitch get a G x P Hybrid and only serve it when it is climbing away from you with the lure, bagged game or wild game. A few time of this and it will be a 1000 ft. It will not be right over you but that is also easy to change.

I always hear I do not need to have a high flying falcon from people that hawk at low pitches and have trouble getting their birds to go up high. These people often do a lot of reflushing and their birds learn not to put out on the first stoop. This will keep your bird from really going up high because she knows you will keep flushing until she get her prize. I also hear she won't get down in time because the Quarry can make it to cover. If your falcon has not learned to stoop fast and well then she will pace her stoop and miss the Quarry if it has only a short distance cover. If she is a 1000 ft dead over head or just slightly up wind and you flush a covey of Partridge how far will they get with a female Peregrine? If she is intermewed and has the skills to really stoop then they will not get far. Prairie Grouse are about the only bird that needs to have cover in the distance. The Art of Falconry is about having good discipline and knowing when to end the training at the right time.

I grew up just outside of Seattle flying Snipe and Ducks in postage stamp sized fields and sometimes surrounded with major highways and roads. My birds would take super high pitches and still made many kills right in front of me.

We have many more tools to work with here in the States to teach climbing, waiting on, stooping, and footing that you guys lack across the pond. I use pigeons to teach stooping and footing. To teach and increase pitch with pigeons one has to know how to serve the Falcon. A good friend of mine that only hunts Ducks on passage with Falcons from very high pitches in a small Valley surrounded with trees coined the saying; A well served pigeon can put a 100 ft. on the pitch of your falcon or a badly served pigeon can take a 100ft. off the pitch. This is very true and I have seen many people ruin falcons with pigeons. There is an Art to serving Pigeons as knowing how to set up good gamehawking. The pigeons also have to be trained to be strong enough mentally and physically. Pigeons are like the falcons it is important to have well bred birds and have them in top condition to evade the stoop, not lose their head and fly home.

The Art of training a Falcon is knowing when and how to serve her. I have trained many high flying Falcons by starting them out first by lure stooping them for the first two weeks and letting them mount after they have the conditioning they need to really fly. Females take a lot more to get them and keep in shape because they need to be in great condition to take high pitches.

I could go on forever about getting the most from your Falcon. If you are very happy with a short stoop that is OK but you are really missing out on what high flying deadly gamehawking is about.

[Sokoly]

There is many ways to get a falcon to fly high. One big one is genetics. Like horses, dogs and other well bred animals some are bred to run. Well, Falcons are the same because some just like to fly. If you only want a bird to take a high pitch get a G x P Hybrid and only serve it when it is climbing away from you with the lure, bagged game or wild game. A few time of this and it will be a 1000 ft. It will not be right over you but that is also easy to change.

I always hear I do not need to have a high flying falcon from people that hawk at low pitches and have trouble getting their birds to go up high. These people often do a lot of reflushing and their birds learn not to put out on the first stoop. This will keep your bird from really going up high because she knows you will keep flushing until she get her prize. I also hear she won't get down in time because the Quarry can make it to cover. If your falcon has not learned to stoop fast and well then she will pace her stoop and miss the Quarry if it has only a short distance cover. If she is a 1000 ft dead over head or just slightly up wind and you flush a covey of Partridge how far will they get with a female Peregrine? If she is intermewed and has the skills to really stoop then they will not get far. Prairie Grouse are about the only bird that needs to have cover in the distance. The Art of Falconry is about having good discipline and knowing when to end the training at the right time.

I grew up just outside of Seattle flying Snipe and Ducks in postage stamp sized fields and sometimes surrounded with major highways and roads. My birds would take super high pitches and still made many kills right in front of me.

We have many more tools to work with here in the States to teach climbing, waiting on, stooping, and footing that you guys lack across the pond. I use pigeons to teach stooping and footing. To teach and increase pitch with pigeons one has to know how to serve the Falcon. A good friend of mine that only hunts Ducks on passage with Falcons from very high pitches in a small Valley surrounded with trees coined the saying; A well served pigeon can put a 100 ft. on the pitch of your falcon or a badly served pigeon can take a 100ft. off the pitch. This is very true and I have seen many people ruin falcons with pigeons. There is an Art to serving Pigeons as knowing how to set up good gamehawking. The pigeons also have to be trained to be strong enough mentally and physically. Pigeons are like the falcons it is important to have well bred birds and have them in top condition to evade the stoop, not lose their head and fly home.

The Art of training a Falcon is knowing when and how to serve her. I have trained many high flying Falcons by starting them out first by lure stooping them for the first two weeks and letting them mount after they have the conditioning they need to really fly. Females take a lot more to get them and keep in shape because they need to be in great condition to take high pitches.

I could go on forever about getting the most from your Falcon. If you are very happy with a short stoop that is OK but you are really missing out on what high flying deadly gamehawking is about.

Very good post Brian will you please share some more of your opinions and experiances on teaching the falcons to wait on, using pigeons.
As far as I know we use pigeons when the falcon is out of position so it will teach it wait on in the wright position. Namely, you release a strong pigeon when the falcon is way away. The point is for the pigeon to escape. This way you teach the falcon to position over your head, not wide away. After a few misses when the falcon is above you (no matter the hight) you serve it a quarry (baggie),that will be caught for sure.After a few times succesfull hit, your falcon will,learn to position it's self.
Than comes the time to teach it to go higher. You do this buy already mentioned methods, You let it catch the bird, when it's in a good hight, if not high enough the bird escapes. That teaches the falcon to gain hight.The most important thing is to let it catch when in good pitch . Falcons are very intellegent creatures and learn very fast. They tend to remember the succesful flights,just like we do. :-)
Sokoly

[JanMan]

Tony, Mattspar,outflying, soloky

I didnt mean for it sound like it was "inferior" at all. My appologies!:oops:

From reading on the IFF I have just gathered that at least most of you guy's have smaller fields to hunt in. Therefor you dont need a 1000 foot pitch, a 400-500 foot pitch puts more game in the bag. And i agree that is more than enough to do the job. Its just that over here we have the luxury of space. Or at least some of us do. I'm more limited than some. But even at that I can let my falcon take a pitch of 1000 feet and still have it stay in the county. Is it more deadly that yours, probably not. Its just that the higher they are the longer i get to watch a stoop! And for me at least I dont need the game so its all about watching falcons fall from outerspace!!:supz:

Bill, we were obviously at 'cross purposes' on this and now I see what you mean and I couldn't agree more. I used to be impressed with a White Bellied Sea Eagle I had that would circle out of sight and would respond to a shout. I could never get it into my head that if couldn't see the eagle she couldn't see me so I would shout. Anyway, she would respond immediately and come down in a most comical 'stoop', coming into sight and getting bigger and bigger with body feathers sticking out all over the place until she hit my fist. She was a perfect demonstration of a bird doing something they were not designed to do, but it never ceased to impress me, even when she knocked me over.
Reading this thread it would seem the US and UK are worlds apart on the issue of how to serve 'baggies' or not, but I can't imagine seeing any better flights including verticle stoops that I have experienced over here without the use of kites, ballons or bagged pigeons. Perhaps I should broaden my horizons.

Tony

[MattSpar]

Tony, Mattspar,outflying, soloky

I didnt mean for it sound like it was "inferior" at all. My appologies!:oops:



No worries.

The thought never crossed my mind.

[Brian Sullivan]

Here lies the biggest problem why some falconers have a hard time training their birds. FALCONS do not think like humans! We need to understand this first before we can really know how Falcons think and know what methods to use for training.

If your falcon is climbing away from you and you serve her she is going to repeat what works for her. If you serve her when she is up wind she will learn to position upwind. If she is down wind when you serve her she is going to do the same. If she has her wings set and loosing height and you serve her she will repeat this again. I often times see Falconers when their bird flies off so they start showing the falcon everything but the kitchen sink. They do not understand they are training their bird to fly away when they are doing this. In her mind she is thinking he is showing me everything I have ever wanted and all I have to do is fly away from him! If your Falcon does not come back over when you want her to by a simple wave of your glove or hand then she has not been really trained. If your falcon flies off and you have to chase her down and call her down to the lure you should not feed her up. I have seen falconer after falconer feed their bird up after a long telemetry chase. They have just now rewarded the falcon for flying off! A small feed on a tyring would have been fine and later feed her when some time has passed. I have seen Falconers take a great bird that showed lots of promise and turn it into a bird that will fly off and land. This happens when they keep making the same mistakes.

It really does not matter if you are using a lure, bagged game, pigeons, or wild game you first have to understand how Falcons think. Once you can understand this the training will be easier and more effective.

[OutHawkn]

Why does one have to be a bafoon to try something new once in awhile? Thats probably what the old guys said about hybrids,telemetry,etc. Seems to me falconry ought to be fun and if adding something new once in awhile keeps it enjoyable, then go for it!:supz:

[Hatchero]

Why does one have to be a bafoon to try something new once in awhile? Thats probably what the old guys said about hybrids,telemetry,etc. Seems to me falconry ought to be fun and if adding something new once in awhile keeps it enjoyable, then go for it!:supz:

you are right on the money about that. whatever floats your boat is what makes the thing fun.

[Brian Sullivan]

Here lies the biggest problem why some falconers have a hard time training their birds. FALCONS do not think like humans! We need to understand this first before we can really know how Falcons think and know what methods to use for training.

If your falcon is climbing away from you and you serve her she is going to repeat what works for her. If you serve her when she is up wind she will learn to position upwind. If she is down wind when you serve her she is going to do the same. If she has her wings set and loosing height and you serve her she will repeat this again. I often times see Falconers when their bird flies off so they start showing the falcon everything but the kitchen sink. They do not understand they are training their bird to fly away when they are doing this. In her mind she is thinking he is showing me everything I have ever wanted and all I have to do is fly away from him! If your Falcon does not come back over when you want her to by a simple wave of your glove or hand then she has not been really trained. If your falcon flies off and you have to chase her down and call her down to the lure you should not feed her up. I have seen falconer after falconer feed their bird up after a long telemetry chase. They have just now rewarded the falcon for flying off! A small feed on a tyring would have been fine and later feed her when some time has passed. I have seen Falconers take a great bird that showed lots of promise and turn it into a bird that will fly off and land. This happens when they keep making the same mistakes.

It really does not matter if you are using a lure, bagged game, pigeons, or wild game you first have to understand how Falcons think. Once you can understand this the training will be easier and more effective.

Sorry it should have been: using a lure, bagged game, kites or balloons, pigeons, ultralights, RC planes ( my friends use them in the ME) or wild game you first have to understand how Falcons think.

[OutHawkn]

Sorry it should have been: using a lure, bagged game, kites or balloons, pigeons, ultralights, RC planes ( my friends use them in the ME) or wild game you first have to understand how Falcons think.

I agree witht that, and have you noticed how many folks just dont "get it"? RC planes? I've never heard of that.Must have some sort of radio release?