Altai Saker

[Want-a-Saker.]

Hi all,

Just been searching the net trying to find out some more information about the Altai Saker. :shock:
I'm sure some of the more experienced falconers will have had some experience with them at some point.

How do they compare to a regular Saker other than their size?
Are they any different to train etc, and what are your opinions please.
How are they valued.....

Does anyone have any pictures?

Thanks in advance. :wink:

Regards,
Des.

[Varmint]

I only know of one breeder of Altai Saker's in Uk, and he's here in Scotland, and he does not ever sell birds (he must bred 60 a year!)

This Arab Gentleman is a multi millionaire, and breeds them for fun.

They are a good 30% larger than any other Sakers that i have seen but sadly i have had no experience with them in the flying field and i wouldn't imagine that many people have experienced "True" Altai Sakers, over here.

He showed to me a female, which i weighed, who was ready to fly at 3lb 2oz!!!!!

From what i have heard from friends abroad, they are very like other Sakers: Smart, Greedy, Opportunistic and Slow in their first year...

[Want-a-Saker.]

I have only ever seen one in the flesh so to speak, and it was in poor light....
It looked really big with long wings, and a lovely shade af black with a speckled breast, a real stunner!
This one had part russian / english markings on its leg ring.

What does your friend do with his Altai if he doesn't sell them Adrian?
How much would you think one would be worth?

Thanks for your comments!

Regards,
Des.

[Varmint]

The Problem is Des, that everyone will try to tell you that their birds are Altai? but they simply are not.

True Altai Sakers are very similar in Size (and sometimes Colour) to the Gyr Falcon, but Don'y have the legendery Beak Width and Size and also slightly longer Toes.

The Guy i Know, probably Kills the Males! but he simply will not sell them.

You will almost certainly get one in Germany, but you'll pay around £1500 for a good one.

Why do you want a Altai Des?

[Afshimo]

my saker is pretty white, blue/yellowisg tinge feet. Is she an altai or Ashgar? whats the diff? She flys at only 1lb 9, which makes me think she cud me a male! would post the pics, but this forum thingy wont allow them lol.

[Hawkmaster]

Hannah, email it to me and I will put it up for you. Hawkmaster@eclipse.co.uk

Cheers Paul

[Grand Master Falconer]

Varmint is right Des , everyone want to sell you their Altai for £1500 regardless of wether it is or not!!
The Altai is a colour phase and although their size is legendary it is not their distinguishing feature. I used to breed Altais from wild imported stock, and the largest female I hunted at 2lb 12oz and she was a monster!!! however the smallest male from the same parents flew at 1lb 10oz which is a fairly average size. The larger ones look a little like a Gyrkin in flight but without the merlin style wing beat! They are very capable birds and as Varmint says there are very few outside the Emirates that have had the opportunity to fly one.
There main distinguishing feature and what the Arabs will kill for is the diamond shape markings on the back and tail, more prominant in the tail only in subspecies hybrids of which there are many in the UK.
If I could get my computer to email you a photo Des I would.
I have a great photo of the back of an Altai male I flew There are 10 diamond shaped white markings on his back/wings which make a perfect larger diamond when the birds wings are folded.
There are also five diamonds running vertically down each tail feather, it is quite remarkable.
Since I have only seen these markings on Altai sakers ( bear in mind I have flown all saker subspecies and bred most) when I say these diamonds are their distinguishing feature it is very much a personal observation and not documented fact, However the Black Saker which you describe Des I would suggest is in fact a Sinjari Saker and not an Altai.

Best wishes
Rick

[Grand Master Falconer]

Hannah,
At 1lb 9oz I would not call it her!! Its definately a Him.
And from your descreiption an Ashgar or blonde phase, the feet should be pale blue, but pigmentation from chick yolks often turn the feet and cere yellow over a period of time.

[Varmint]

Hannah, From the description of your bird, and the weight i would say without any doubt, that your bird is a box standard "Cherrug" Male!

[Want-a-Saker.]

As you know, I've kind of got my hands full at the moment, but at some point in the future I'd quite like one (going by the only one that I have seen).

Wouldn't think about it until I have a good bit more experience and knowledge, but was wondering how if any they differed from the more common Sakers other than their size and colour.

I did a search on the net but found very little information on them other than their general habitat and Gyr like features etc.

Thanks again for your information Adrian!

[Want-a-Saker.]

Rick,

Thanks for the information!

I'll try to get some pictures of the bird that I have been told is an Altai, as I mentioned, I have only looked at it the once and it was in quite poor light so I couldn't comment on the diamond shaped markings but that is a really interesting feature to remember next time I look at it.

I don't think the owner will mind me taking some pictures of it, if not I'll post some to you and maybe when you get some time you could have a look and give me your comments.

Thanks again guys, I appreciate your comments and views.

Regards
Des.

[Grand Master Falconer]

Hi all hope this fits!!

[Matt]

i have ashgar sakers im told and the resurch i have done has led me to beleave it.this is my male .
hes a first year and weight 1lb 14 out the hack pen flys at 1lb 11

[Matt]

i have asked a few very reputable breeders here in the uk about [alti ] sakers and most told me i was chasing a dream and that like most things people have faked up paper work for 75%sakers 25% gyrs under pure saker papers. this im sure is driven buy financual gain.
i have a pic of some altia sakers from america all the info i could find is that the gentleman imported them from the uk . i do not know there size or age in the pic but they are very priity birds but for me not worth there price . in compariso to a well bred gyr saker or 3/4 bred of eather saker or gyr .

[Grand Master Falconer]

Matt,
Your bird is probably Ashgar as are about 90% of the sakers here in the UK it is the standard Cherrug Saker.
The only reason Altais fetch good money is because they are rare, Try buying a Tibri or sinjari and you will find similar price tags.
As with most larger falcons (and I'm not being elitist before anyone starts bleating) there are probably only a handfull of falconers in the UK who have access to enough time and suitable land to do justice to these birds anyway.
I'm currently working on a Gyr/Peregrine x Saker who has spent the last 6 years sat on a perch doing f.........uck all, the reason for that is probably that the owner realised after buying her that he could not fly her in the area he had available ( for 'could not' read: was to scared to let her go cos she costa few bucks and he couldn't see where she was cos all the trees and didn't want to lose her!!).
To many larger falcons are just flown 'display stylee' her in the UK and are probably subjected to this style of flying for the reason spelt out above.
For those that find themselves in that situatuation it is predominantly for the same reasons we see time and again on this ere falconry forum 'size' My falcon fly at 300lbs and catches elephants for fun!!
As is so often pointed out by those of us who really hunt longwings A tiercel is not only more challenging but often more capable to hunt in the smaller areas we are forced to fly in. You also see much better flights and even if they don't result in a kill the memory of those flights will live on for a long time.
It brings us back to the biggest debate of our generation : Hybrids, those of us who breed hybrids and tribrids have done so in order to create a smaller bird for YOUR environment, Most of the larger hybrids are bred for specifics IE sakers are like flying sponges add a bit of peregrine problem solved likewise peregrines are a bit thick add a bit of saker problem solved Gyr are a bit expensive add a bit of Saker........and so on.
But the real reason behind creating hybrids in the first place was to produce utility falcons so that falconers who weren't blessed with open expanses of land could still fly and hunt longwings, hence birds like the Perlin.
Anyway going off the thread a wee bitty, Altai wether you think they are bigger than normal sakers or not are not readily available and because of current concerns over wild populations this is likely to remain the case for a good few years, further as Varmint pointed out there is already a market place for the ones which are being bred where the falconers pocket money often outweighs our annual salary!!
I'm trying to finish writing honest!!!
These points should all bring you back to something which you should have been taught when you first got into falconry......It is not you who chooses what you fly, it is the ground you have access too.
If you live in the middle of a grouse moor, i don't care how good you think Harris' are they would be wasted, equally if you live in the middle of sherwood forest a Gyr falcon aint goin to be much good either!!
For those who live in middle England the versatility of the Harris is what makes them the bird of choice. If you aspire to hunt falcons choose a versatile one not one that you think will impress other falconers.

Best wishes
Rick

[Shaun Byrne]

And so say all of us!!! So what we're saying is that an Altai is of little use to 90% of us as our ground is unsuitable. This coupled with the cost and unavailability makes the Altai prety useless unless of course we can get a pair and make ourselves a fortune.

[Matt]

gmf you dissing my sakers calling then common ?????????????
lol i dont care if hes common so am i lol
the guy marcus works for has altais there pritty deer tho and i think he still has some for sale.
any way altai or just common old ashgar mines still best lol so there !!!
all the best matt

[Grand Master Falconer]

I happen to like ashgars the females are amazing on hare, I sold a female to Kim Deacon and he had over 100 hare in the first two seasons!!

[Want-a-Saker.]

Thanks again for the comments and pictures, I spoke to the guy that has the Altai last weekend, I'll get some pictures posted off to you within the next few weeks as he has the bird at a friends.
How close does a Sinjari Saker look, you mentioned that it was black also?
The one that I understand to be Altai looks just like the ones that you posted the pictures of.....

Thanks again Rick!

[Matt]

gmf take it easy m8 i was only joking .
dont be so seriouse all the time most of use do this for fun .
all the best matt

[Afshimo]

hiya, just checked back on this post:

GMF: Yes, he is a he! But I still think he is cracking, and will get some nice flight's out of him this year if poss.

Varmint: Dont tell him that, he fly's better if u call him a jerkin lol. I guessed he's a nice normal saker, but still think he's super, as far as my first bird lol.

Whats an ashgar saker?

Hannah

[Saker Mad]

well if the pics are true altis then i have a male hes very highly strung with a fat weight of 2.5 but i also have a female who was black when she was born hunts incredible at 2.6 to 2.8 a very big female at that but not sure she is a alti il post pics if i get get a good one trough the spy hole in the breeding chamber

[Want-a-Saker.]

If you get a chance to take some pictures I'd love to see them!
p.s. Rab was asking for you, he passes on his regards.....

[Saker Mad]

cheers mate

[BrianM]

where is rab ?.... havent heard from him in a while

[Saker Mad]

if anyones looking for good sakers ill give you a breeders number in scotland or you can wait to see if me pere/sakers go down <vbg>

[Want-a-Saker.]

Brian, he's not been on much of late, he's been busy working in the centre (Drainage and prepairing the ground for new flights etc).

how did you get on with your dilema regarding the swap for the Gyr x Sakers for your Harris Brian?

Ian, I'd have Sakers coming out of my ears given half a chance.... so much so I'm waiting for Adrian (Varmint) arriving back from his holls to enquire about the ex display G/Saker (Gillie) that he had advertised...... I've tried to resist the temptation....but I'm weak.......

[BrianM]

ahh,, decided we had come through too much together... training.hunting etc.,, decided to keep her

[Saker Mad]

must admit im the same i was hoping to breed from the male but the female scared him shittless plus i think he may be a slight imprint

[Saker Mad]

well heres the pic like a said he may be a alti looks similar to the earlier pic sorry about the ****** pic i cannot find my new camera :wink: sorry guys there no attachment thingy magig ohh em moderaters where have you hid it :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Saker Mad]

sorry about the quality it was a **** camera :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:

[Want-a-Saker.]

Hi Ian,

It's quite different to the one that I have seen, this one is really dark i.e. black (Maybe graphite or charcoal might be a better description of the colour....) Looks like a nice bird you have eitherway!
Have you had it long?

Thanks for the pix.

[Saker Mad]

3 years now

[HawkNorth]

what are catching with it and what type of ground

[BFC 007]

i got my "altai" from kentish falconry centre & its a spitting image of a pure altai what you see on the internet & in books-whether mine is a true one or not i dont no-certainly looks it

[Saker Mad]

thats were mine came from origanaly that was nearly 8 years ago now

[Want-a-Saker.]

i got my "altai" from kentish falconry centre & its a spitting image of a pure altai what you see on the internet & in books-whether mine is a true one or not i dont no-certainly looks it

Mmmm..... :D how much do they charge? :wink:

[BFC 007]

£700 mate for a female £350 for a male

[Want-a-Saker.]

Cheers!

I'll send them an enquiry!

Regards,
Des.

[Gaz]

This is Altai...Chris s has her now for breeding...one mean bitch!!

[OhMyGod]

I belive that in and around the Altai mountains there is a phase of saker that is larger than any other.

The reason being that it is a NATURAL hybrid of gyr and saker. So you might ask yourself, well what colour are gyr in this part of the globe? The answer is BLACK. So for me there is no doubt that an Altai saker is DARK PHASE, and not the ashgar phase which is very pale (and also an agressive formidable hunting phase).

I was once shown a saker in Dubai that was described to me as Altai, it was indeed the darkest saker I have ever seen, it did not have barrs on its tail at all!! They were pure DARK...... ALL TWELVE!!

I believe this bird cost a small fortune and believe me those arabs know their sakers, and they have many different phases, for different style of hunting. I have seen nice sakers over here too but 90% of the sakers you buy in the uk are ****, slow, sluggish, don't row their wings properly or some other weird sh**.

We all know that in the wild the desert falcon will be lucky to have 1 in every 10 of its youngsters actually make it to breeding, what do you think this bird will be like? a runt fed on **** from day one? no. So what happens when you keep breeding **** from **** from ****? we end up with ****. I have seen saker for sale that I wouldn't give a tener for as it will bore me. wonder what happens to them? probably just get used for breeding eh.

[Gaz]

probably just get used for breeding eh
Probaly yeah,wouldn"t give a toss for um...got this bird off a dick head who kapt her in a canary wire aviary...top of head smashed..cere split & bleeding....right wing where the ulna joins the humerus dripping blood and infected,the beak grossly overgrown/split and cracked,full of mite and feathers bent/broke,left foot cack as well...think i did her proud though yeah??..shes gone to Chris cause he got a specific reason for wanting a couple of young off her....glad shes alive and shes gonna breed!!long may she live... :!:
"ALL WE ARE SAYYYYINGG...IS GIVE PEACE A CHANCE..."
:mrgreen: :supz: :mrgreen:

[OhMyGod]

cool, this bird looks like a nice bird gaz, don't get me wrong. It has nice broad shoulders, and feet and you may find she will produce quality birds. She looks a nice size I can tell by the head.

I was told that this pale phase saker is ashgar, a very aggressive phase of saker. I do feel strongly about the amount of sh** sakers available today. I have seen them in the free ads!!!!!!! in the suffolk area for £100 -£200

how can they be so cheap? when some cost 500 700 or more, And if advertised here, where do you think they will end up? In some cun*s house in a cage? I hope not cos they don't like it much do they.

Also if I were a beginner and I bought a quality bird I would expect one not somthing that is hybridised with other subspecies of saker. They have different wing shapes as they are desighned to catch different quarry in different hunting techniques in different habitats. and are very different, mixing them up produces a bit of a mish mash and that is why in england you can buy a saker that looks like no real saker you would ever find in the wild. it is a uk subspecies, which is born from birds that have not made good hunting birds. and people want to get their money back.

[Gaz]

Thats the problem i have with um,so many peoplr buy um cos they are cheap and white(soo prettty!)..only for um to be sat on a block for years...does my head right in....i have "rescued" 3 now...but they keep on breeding um :!: dont get me wrong..if you got a specific thing you want it to fly at,fair play....a well "respected" chairman sold a Gyr/saker to a old bloke not far from me..the birds in a pigeon loft!!..never been manned let alone be allowed to fly!!looks like another to "rescue"..it just goes on!!..FLYING CHEQUE BOOKS..thats the phrase isnt it.....An appeal from me:DONT BUY A FALCON COS YOU THINK IT LOOKS NICE,THINK WHAT LAND/QUARRY YOU GOT AND WHAT WOULD SUIT IT,IF YOU CAN MATCH A SPECIFIC BIRD TO IT,GO FOR IT,IF YOU CANT,DO WHAT I GOTTA DO,SWALLOW IT,AND DO IT RIGHT WITH SOMETHING THAT SUITS..it makes sense...yes :?:

[Cyclone]

i would just like to say that i have a male saker flyin at 1lb 8 and he looks exactly like the saker in that picture mat

[Finnish]

Hello and welcome to the forum.Tell us more about your bird.

[se7en]

I will a altai saker female with DNA papers can you help me?

I only know of one breeder of Altai Saker's in Uk, and he's here in Scotland, and he does not ever sell birds (he must bred 60 a year!)

This Arab Gentleman is a multi millionaire, and breeds them for fun.

They are a good 30% larger than any other Sakers that i have seen but sadly i have had no experience with them in the flying field and i wouldn't imagine that many people have experienced "True" Altai Sakers, over here.

He showed to me a female, which i weighed, who was ready to fly at 3lb 2oz!!!!!

From what i have heard from friends abroad, they are very like other Sakers: Smart, Greedy, Opportunistic and Slow in their first year...

[Saker-Clive]

This thread is 6 years old:rolleyes:

Give Kentish a pm, he breeds them.

[Shaun Byrne]

This thread is 6 years old:rolleyes:

Give Kentish a pm, he breeds them.

Its a blast from the past Clive:supz:

[Little Joe]

The thread may be 6 years old, but its still funny. :lol:

It seems the elusive Atai Saker is like the white spar, only, its not really a dyed bird, it exists!

The pictures of birds earlier in this thread are NOT Altai's.

The Altai Saker is a chocolate brown bird and quite large, but not as large as a pure Gyr. I had the privilege to meet an Arab friend recently who went to Khazakstan and trapped himself a pure Altai female. Its a gorgeous creature with long tail and wings and a colouring that reminds me of Milo.

Most socalled captive bred altai sakers are like most socalled black shaheens - bast*rds. :wink:

Jannes

[Leo 1]

whats the oldis one been flowen still as i no they dont raily live that long 20 years or so i heard

[Leo 1]

bumped:lol:

[Little Joe]

The term Altai Saker and sinjari seems to be used with some confusion. The dark phase of the saker is called sinjari by the Arabs. There is good reason to believe that this is in fact the Altai saker. Altai and sinjari are not two different things as some stated before.

A typical sinjari/Altai saker male, diamonds or no diamonds.

97646

[Leo 1]

juals
aulta saker femail imprint
97703

97704

[HitUmHard]

tig what u doing you numpty pmsl

[Pure Blood]

tig what u doing you numpty pmsl

numpty :lol:

[JanH]

Oooooo, she's pretty. Yours Tigg?

juals
aulta saker femail imprint
97703

97704

[JFSeaman]

juals
aulta saker femail imprint
97703

97704

NOT :rolleyes:

[Leo 1]

Oooooo, she's pretty. Yours Tigg?

ye she is proper nice comes from welsh hawkinng cente i didant get her from them i got her from hithumhard but sez on papers she from ther hates been in travle box tho lol

numpty :lol:

:D:D

[Sean D]

The term Altai Saker and sinjari seems to be used with some confusion. The dark phase of the saker is called sinjari by the Arabs. There is good reason to believe that this is in fact the Altai saker. Altai and sinjari are not two different things as some stated before.

A typical sinjari/Altai saker male, diamonds or no diamonds.

97646

Stunning Joe

[Barbary9669]

Altai is e region in Russia, I have some photo's of Altai Saker's trapped there a few years ago, will try to get them scanned and put them up, they were asking up to $90,000 for the best females, so I would not think there are many in UK breeding projects.......

Ian

[HallBeck]

juals
aulta saker femail imprint
97703

97704

Well you have proved your staying power with your lanner and your falconry prowess with your Harris Hawks - i am sure you will be able to use all this knowledge with this bird :lol:

[Barbary9669]

Well you have proved your staying power with your lanner and your falconry prowess with your Harris Hawks - i am sure you will be able to use all this knowledge with this bird :lol:

Does not remind me of what I saw..... they looked more like Gyr's

Ian

[Little Joe]

juals
aulta saker femail imprint
97703

97704

Standard "ashgar" saker.

[Pearl]

juals
aulta saker femail imprint
97703

97704this falcon has im sure come from lsd1 ????

[HitUmHard]

that falcon came from me

[Pearl]

i think i owned the same falcon one toe missing ??

[Pearl]

this falcon has im sure come from lsd1 ????


bump

[Leo 1]

i think i owned the same falcon one toe missing ??

no got her from hunumhard no toes or lims missing :lol:

[Pearl]

no got her from hunumhard no toes or lims missing :lol:

http://falconryforum.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=97703

inside toe ??

[Leo 1]

http://falconryforum.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=97703

inside toe ??

nopgot al her toes last i looked

[MickeyDredd]

I think it might be between the glove fingers Mark.

http://falconryforum.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=97703

inside toe ??

[Pearl]

nopgot al her toes last i lookedthen this is not the pic of your falcon it has one toe missing

[Leo 1]

then this is not the pic of your falcon it has one toe missing

yes it is but it hasant got no toe missing like MickeyDredd sez it is hider in the glove

[Dave G]

http://falconryforum.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=97703

inside toe ??
Looks to me as all the toes are there as just sitting at the back of the finger ???

[Pearl]

yes it is but it hasant got no toe missing like MickeyDredd sez it is hider in the glove
fair enough how old is she ??

[Leo 1]

fair enough how old is she ??

not to shore as dusant say owt on a10 but sez she was at weshhawking center so i have pmed them see if they no more about her exetra

[Pearl]

not to shore as dusant say owt on a10 but sez she was at weshhawking center so i have pmed them see if they no more about her exetrathanks tig would still like a pic of a close up on that foot :goodman:

[TLDWB]

that falcon came from me

You must have been desperate.

Tom

[Pearl]

thanks tig would still like a pic of a close up on that foot :goodman:
dont worry she was not stolen or anything :D

[Leo 1]

thanks tig would still like a pic of a close up on that foot :goodman:

will get 1 2moz